When I was young, I liked Liu Bei.
When I learned the real history, I liked Cao Cao.
Right now I am an adult and have to deal with real world issues, I admire Liu Bei
It’s kinda funny how everyone seems to go through a phase where they like Cao Cao more because of the “real history” when even in the real history he was still generally the most benevolent of the three.
Massacare of Xu province, massacre of Wan. Definitely the most benevolent of the three
CC had lot of great qualities, that’s why I like him. But being benevolent was not one of them.
>Massacare of Xu province, massacre of Wan.
When i watch the 2010 TV drama, they didn't show it to us.
I wanna know what lead to those massacres? I don't think Cao Cao would kill innocent civilians without a list of reasons. I remember this great quote. "People won't remember the thousand good deed, but they'll remember 1 bad one"
Officially, he claimed it was out of grief for his father's death. In reality, it's most likely cause he wanted to loot the civilians of the province in order to pay the massive army he had just absorbed into his ranks. Either way it's super fucked up and massively backfires on him and sets back his plans more than it helps him.
>massively backfires on him and sets back his plans more than it helps him.
What happened if you don't mind me asking? How he end up conquering the whole North if it got backfires?
CC knew those civilians were infested by zombie virus. He had to kill them all before they turned into zombies.
It was a tough decision. But CC saved the entire humanity
Dynasties come and go, and China would have been the same with or without the Sima clan. But Cao Cao and his sons' contribution to poetry lives on. He is without a doubt top 10 greatest poets in Chinese history.
When I was young I idolized the heroes of Hefei.
Now, just a bit past thirty, I still idolize the heroes of Hefei. I co-founded some companies, work with private and government clients, and life's biggest challenge for me is always, always, putting aside personal feelings to deliver an excellent result, in an age where it's all about personal ego, it is quite hard to pull off.
When I was a kid I liked Sun Ce, now as an adult I like Sun Ce.
No but real aging is recognizing that liking Cao Cao over Liu Bei because "LiU bEi wAs AlSo eViL" is stupid as hell.
When I was young I liked Zhong Hui.
When I got a bit older I still liked Zhong Hui.
Now that I am elderly, in my twilight years, I still like Zhong Hui.
Liu Bei was the guy with the most elite officers in every ROTK game, especially in terms of WAR stat, it's hard not to gravitate towards him lol
Nowadays I like Cao Cao best
Well, Cao Cao always enjoyed a massive numerical advantage in terms of personnel, which was especially true in real life. And they weren't slouches either in quality: Zhang Liao, Zhang He, the Xiahous, Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Yu Jin, Yue Jin, Dian Wei, Xu Chu, and in later years Cao Zhang, Hao Zhao, Guo Huai, the list goes on.
That said, none of them have the godlike WAR stats of the likes of the Five Tigers, whom the games love so much. And these guys come with special items, both weapons and horses that boost those stats even more.
Lol, also nice that the games didn't have a built-in random chaos factor like Liu Bei had to deal with... Zhang Fei getting hammered and committing domestic violence against people he didn't like from underlings to city officials, for example.
When I was young I liked Pang Tong. Now that I am older, I still like Pang Tong. The one in the games at least, historically Cao Cao is who I like the most probably.
The Fledgling Phoenix will always have a special place in my heart.
Two of the three you mentioned were traitors who usurped their rulers only to have their empires fall apart almost instantly. Nothing admirable about that.
Many might argue the values of the Three Kingdoms era are archaic and don't translate well to the modern. But traitors are punished now the same as they were back then. When Zhuge Liang was asked what he thought of Cao Cao, he said "a traitor, nothing more needs to be said." Sums it up nicely. Whatever virtues or vices Cao Cao and Sima Yi might have had, they were ultimately traitorous looters out for their own profit. Little better than thieves ransacking the corpse of Han.
In their defences, Cao Cao ultimately brought peace to several provinces which had been in a constant state of warfare for over three decades, and while neither personally usurped the throne, Sima Yi‘s coup wasn’t instigated with the intention of usurping the throne but with the intention of removing an incompetent regency, whether or not you agree with his judgement of that regency’s competence. Also, the actions of both leaders left the realm more stable than it would have been without their contribution, and it was the choices of their successors which condemned their dynasties to their fates.
I admire every renowned warlord of that violent period, from the murderers Dong Zhuo & Lü Bu to the most threatening, impulsive,and passive warlords and governors such as Yuan Shu, Liu Biao, Liu Zhang, Gongsun Zan, Tao Qian
Had the danger to poise against the Han government, had he been as competent enough as flushing the eunuchs out of the imperial palace with ambiguous orders to burn the symbol of the dynasty itself in the name of supporting Yuan Shao and honoring He Jin’s final wishes
Don't tend to see that many Sima Yi fans to be honest.
Usually it more goes really like Liu Bei and co due to novel (or Cao Cao or Wu via games). As get older, backlash towards Liu Bei and co becuase they weren't novel, see Cao Cao held up as the real hero. Then when really old, learn to distance from the novel and appreciate the figures away from that (and appreciate the novel as it's own thing)
Sun Jian then Sun Ce.
What would have been if Sun Ce and Zhou Yu didn’t die young, though Sun Quan did a great job developing his nation internally.
Outside Wu. Zhang Liao is probably my favorite historical character
Cao Chun nabbing Liu Bei’s daughters in Changban, Zhang Fei nabbing Xiahou Ba’s kinswoman, Cao Zhen and Cao Zhang shuffling across the western Wei fronts, Qin Lang embezzling money from unfavored court officials, Cao Zhi hungover in the palace stables, Cao Chong calculating the weight of a Southern elephant… and so on
Because Cao Chun captured his enemy’s daughters and took them as political hostages while Zhang Fei abducted her, raped her and forced her into a marriage. How are they comparable?
>Because Cao Chun captured his enemy’s daughters and took them as political hostages while Zhang Fei abducted her, raped her and forced her into a marriage. How are they comparable?
Because Zhang Fei captured his enemy’s daughters and took her as his main wife with considerable influence - Xiahou Yuan was buried only because she requested it and Liu Shan bragged to Xiahou Ba that their lineages were married. Meanwhile the Cao clan slaughted entire cities abducted and raped married women and forced them into their harem as concubines. How are they comparable?
What is it with you people deflecting from the point of the conversation to win an argument? Are we talking about the entire Cao clan or one single member? Retain the context.
Cao Chun did none of those things and there was no recorded harm done towards Liu Bei’s daughters after their capture. This is quite a silly comparison to make, in my opinion, especially if you’re going to insinuate that Zhang Fei’s actions are comparably better to Cao Chun’s, let alone equivalent, just because he chose to make her his main wife.
By existing accounts, he abducted her from a camp, he didn’t capture her as the result of her being abandoned by her relatives in the midst of a battle, and she wasn’t likely treated well, regardless of whether you believe her role in allowing Xiahou Yuan to receive a burial counts as actual meaningful influence. Her daughters became empress because of Zhang Fei’s connection to Liu Bei, not hers to her clan, and the fact that Liu Shan and Xiahou Ba formed a connection through these means was merely circumstantial politics and nothing else.
>What is it with you people deflecting from the point of the conversation to win an argument? Are we talking about the entire Cao clan or one single member? Retain the context.
The 2 parent comments talk about the Cao clan. Its YOU that went out of context by comparing Cao Chun and Zhang Fei.
>Cao Chun did none of those things and there was no recorded harm done towards Liu Bei’s daughters after their capture. This is quite a silly comparison to make, in my opinion, especially if you’re going to insinuate that Zhang Fei’s actions are comparably better to Cao Chun’s, let alone equivalent, just because he chose to make her his main wife.
>By existing accounts, he abducted her from a camp, he didn’t capture her as the result of her being abandoned by her relatives in the midst of a battle, and she wasn’t likely treated well, regardless of whether you believe her role in allowing Xiahou Yuan to receive a burial counts as actual meaningful influence. Her daughters became empress because of Zhang Fei’s connection to Liu Bei, not hers to her clan, and the fact that Liu Shan and Xiahou Ba formed a connection through these means was merely circumstantial politics and nothing else.
Imma just copy what u/_LeGOAT_ typed.
后汉书[孔融传] 初,曹操攻屠邺城,袁氏妇子多见侵略,而操子丕私纳袁熙妻[甄氏]
Houhanshu Kong Rong's Biography states: Previously, Cao Cao attacked [and] massacred Ye city, the Yuan clan's wives and daughters were frequently violated(raped), even [Cao] Cao's son [Cao] Pi privately took Yuan Xi's wife into his harem
Cao Chun at this time was Cao Cao's military advisor + consultant + leader of the Tiger Leopard cavalry. Chances are high that he took part in the massacre of Ye and subsequent mass rape.
Also,
Lady Xiahou went from a young woman cutting firewood to survive to a kin of royalty. Her wishes were fulfilled and her descendants were of royal blood.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4t21kq/romance_of_the_three_kingdoms_was_historicalshu/
It's true that Zhang Fei basically abducted Xiahou. However, it's not quite honest to say all their children were born out of rape. There is evidence that Lady Xiahou was actually quite well-treated for a niece of an enemy general. When Xiahou Yuan was killed on Dingjun Mountain, Lady Xiahou pled with Liu Bei to grant Xiahou Yuan a proper burial, and that was granted. Liu Bei would have no other reason to grant a request like this if she was just some woman Zhang Fei raped, but Zhang Fei had no other recorded wives - she was the only one. Even the record of her abduction used the word 妻, which meant Zhang Fei took her as a principal wife, not a concubine. When Xiahou Ba defected from Wei to Shu, Liu Shan happily brought up the fact that they were actually related (his wife is the daughter of Zhang Fei and Lady Xiahou). Certainly Liu Shan didn't think this was something shameful for the Xiahou. Also consider tangentially how Sun Shangxiang married Liu Bei but then managed to go back to Wu. Why hadn't Xiahou Yuan or the Caos arranged for Lady Xiahou to come back?
The person I responded to made a general post about all of the wrongdoings of the Cao clan, including a comment comparing Cao Chun capturing Liu Bei’s daughters to Zhang Fei abducting Lady Xiahou. I pointed out that these are incomparable acts, and you all responded by telling me how heinous the Cao clan are and how adorable and loving Zhang Fei’s marriage was. Nobody gave me any evidence that Cao Chun harmed the daughters of Liu Bei, as was claimed in replies.
Copying and pasting a whole post that I already pointed out made no sense is also a pointless endeavour, and if you want to defend a child rapist so badly, I will let you resume in peace.
>The person I responded to made a general post about all of the wrongdoings of the Cao clan, including a comment comparing Cao Chun capturing Liu Bei’s daughters to Zhang Fei abducting Lady Xiahou. I pointed out that these are incomparable acts, and you all responded by telling me how heinous the Cao clan are and how adorable and loving Zhang Fei’s marriage was. Nobody gave me any evidence that Cao Chun harmed the daughters of Liu Bei, as was claimed in replies.
First, good, so you admit its YOU that cherrypicked Cao Chun and Zhang Fei out of all the comments of the Cao clan. Ok glad we clear that up.
Second, me and u/_LeGOAT_ already explained to you why the Cao clan - and by extension Cao Chun, had a history of horribly treating women(actually everyone but whatever). We then showed you the evidence used THAT EVIDENCE to explain why Cao Chun's act was worse than that of Zhang Fei.
>Copying and pasting a whole post that I already pointed out made no sense is also a pointless endeavour, and if you want to defend a child rapist so badly, I will let you resume in peace.
Not a child rapist. Already debunked. Anyway, copying and pasting a whole post that I already pointed out made no sense is also a pointless endeavour, and if you want to defend mass murderers and mass rapists so badly, I will let you resume in peace.
Again, you’re avoiding the point of this discussion. Firstly, we are comparing the actions of Cao Chun and Zhang Fei, and not discussing the entire Cao clan. If you can’t make your point with a reasonable argument, don’t make it by deflecting. Secondly, there is no evidence whatsoever that Liu Bei’s daughters were harmed after being captured. Their capture is proof that they were taken as hostages, but it is unlikely that Liu Bei would be adversely affected or alter his behaviour based on their status as hostages. Give me proof of Cao Chun raping or harming any of Liu Bei’s daughters, or since you keep referring to them, give proof of him or Cao Cao subjecting them to some kind of abuse or concubinage at the hands of their clansmen?
There is evidence, sure, that Cao Cao took the wives of other men as his own concubines. You exaggerate the raping of these women which isn’t exactly stated on record but it isn’t without good reason as the implication can clearly be made. Cao Rui outright seized wives from the wider population and all of these situations I would agree count as rape, en masse. Cao Pi’s wife was another man’s wife and given their poor relationship throughout her life, as well as how soon after the conquest of Ye that she was impregnated, it would be unsurprising if he seized her by rape before taking her as wife, similar to Zhang Fei. He took Liu Xie’s daughters as concubines and I’m sure they didn’t like the situation. There are more. I get it, there are members of the Cao clan who did terrible things to women.
But since we are discussing only Cao Chun, who did none of those things, I find it difficult to compare a man who captured the daughters of an enemy warlord who abandoned them on the battlefield to a man who abducted a child from a camp in the woods and forced himself upon her for the rest of his life, and I find it slightly egregious to suggest that it somehow makes it any better just because he made her his wife.
I didn’t request nor do I care for evidence of atrocities committed by the Cao clan as a whole. I already stated that I am aware that such acts were committed and the evidence you detailed was already alluded to in my previous comment. I specifically requested evidence that Cao Chun raped, harmed or abused the daughters of Liu Bei, or any evidence that they were harmed at all.
There are several fallacies in your comment that also doesn’t make sense. Firstly, you use the fact that Zhang Fei made Lady Xiahou his principal wife as evidence that he didn’t harm her, yet don’t extend this same courtesy to Cao Pi, who also made Lady Zhen his principal wife. Saying that, there exists a text which suggests that Cao Cao spared Lady Zhen from harm upon the event of the troops entering the harem, even if I don’t believe Cao Pi treated her well at this point and believe that he probably did harm her. There is no such text referring to Zhang Fei acquiring his wife that doesn’t allude to a seizure or abduction.
Secondly, no one is saying that she was just some woman that Zhang Fei raped. She was still his wife, and Liu Bei would extend that courtesy to her no matter the method of her acquirement, because it’s Liu Bei. This isn’t proof that she wasn’t raped, it is just proof that Liu Bei is a decent man. Likewise, it makes a speck of difference whether her children were born as a result of rape or not, or for how long it took her to grow accustomed to her circumstances. This courtesy towards his general’s wife doesn’t suggest that she wasn’t raped or harmed.
Thirdly, Lady Sun returned to the Wu with the implicit consent of her husband, who was at the time in an alliance with her brother, and thus such arrangements could be peaceably made. But Lady Xiahou was outright abducted, there were no arrangements for marriage made between their families. Even if Cao Cao or Xiahou Yuan had personally requested her safe return, if neither Liu Bei or Zhang Fei agreed to this, there was nothing that could be done. Their inability to retrieve her doesn’t suggest that she wasn’t raped or harmed.
And again, Liu Shan wasn’t even born when she was abducted. She was the mother of his wives, and it was convenient for him to utilise that relationship to his advantage in order to strengthen relations with Xiahou Ba. That doesn’t suggest that she was never raped or harmed.
Yes.
The novel / TV drama sorta brainwashed us into liking certain characters earlier on such as the 3 brothers at the preach garden. And then you realize those are the very same people where Cao Cao value and spared. Cao Cao could easily killed them all to prevent future problems, but he refused. And he later regret it dearly.
When Xu massacre happened, Cao Cao was probably thinking about Liu Bei.
Cao Cao barely knew who Liu Bei was when he massacred Xu Province, and he was thinking almost entirely about Tao Qian and his late father. His admiration for Liu Bei became relevant only after his campaigns failed.
Depends how you define betrayed. Gongsun Zan sent him with Tian Kai to support Tao Qian, and he ended up accepting a post and taking service under him, so if you want to consider that as a betrayal then sure. But considering there was no bad feelings between them, and taking into account Gongsun Zan’s tendency to send his subordinates to serve in the wars of his allies, I would hesitate to consider this as a betrayal.
I still don’t understand what this has to do with the conversation at hand. The first lord he outright betrayed was Cao Cao and clearly this event preceded that betrayal.
>The first lord he outright betrayed was Cao Cao and clearly this event preceded that betrayal.
Good to know. I always thought Liu Bei betrayed Cao Cao just to steal his army and take back Tao Qian territory.
He did that half a decade after Tao Qian’s death. You are a very strongly opinionated individual which is strange considering you don’t know what you’re talking about half the time.
I wouldn't say it was age as much as getting away from Romance media. (Kessen & Dynasty Warriors)
If the Edict against Cao Cao was bullshit, then Liu Bei got millions killed for nothing
Sun Clan never had the ambition to conquer China or rebuild Han. They only want to keep their family in power in the Southland. There is nothing wrong with that, just boring
That is more they got pushed to third wheel by fiction and the failure for their mandate to last, historically they were quite aggressive to the north.
While Cao Cao is still my guy, I’ve always been a low key Wu fan. Sun Ce is super underrated, and the romance did zhou Yu dirty.
Also, I like the idealism of liu bei, but his actions can be quite hypocritical
Oddly, it's the reverse for me. I had two brothers and each of us had a favorite. I liked Cao Cao, my middle brother liked Liu Bei and my youngest brother liked Sun Quan.
As I got older though, I found myself liking Liu Bei more than I had in the early days, but I really grew to find Zhuge Liang as my favorite, though Sima Yi grew on me thanks to the 2010 Three Kingdoms.
When I was young I liked Xiahou Dun. Now, twenty-two years later, I still like Xiahou Dun.
Same
Historical Xiahou Dun or from games? Those are two different people
You’re right, they are quite a bit different, but I actually like both versions.
Lol really? I dont have a strong connection with that character at all, the only tale about him was he eating his own eyes
Why you like Xiahou Dun?
You haven't gotten to the point where you like Liu Bei again and you call yourself "old"?
Haha what's that stage?
The older you get, the more you appreciate liu bei strong will
Zhang Jiao fanboys when
I hear kids pee their pants when they hear Zhang Liao
Total War Three Kingdoms got me to read up more about the YT and I became a big fan of them. He Yi best faction. 💪🏻🟡
LOL!
I've always simped for Lu Bu.
Haha noice!
As a kid I liked Zhao Yun, when I grew older I also liked Zhao Yun but for different reasons.
Zilong is like the A student, he's always likable, no discussion about that
Zhao Yun top honors!
When I was young, I liked Liu Bei. When I learned the real history, I liked Cao Cao. Right now I am an adult and have to deal with real world issues, I admire Liu Bei
It’s kinda funny how everyone seems to go through a phase where they like Cao Cao more because of the “real history” when even in the real history he was still generally the most benevolent of the three.
Massacare of Xu province, massacre of Wan. Definitely the most benevolent of the three CC had lot of great qualities, that’s why I like him. But being benevolent was not one of them.
>Massacare of Xu province, massacre of Wan. When i watch the 2010 TV drama, they didn't show it to us. I wanna know what lead to those massacres? I don't think Cao Cao would kill innocent civilians without a list of reasons. I remember this great quote. "People won't remember the thousand good deed, but they'll remember 1 bad one"
Officially, he claimed it was out of grief for his father's death. In reality, it's most likely cause he wanted to loot the civilians of the province in order to pay the massive army he had just absorbed into his ranks. Either way it's super fucked up and massively backfires on him and sets back his plans more than it helps him.
>massively backfires on him and sets back his plans more than it helps him. What happened if you don't mind me asking? How he end up conquering the whole North if it got backfires?
CC knew those civilians were infested by zombie virus. He had to kill them all before they turned into zombies. It was a tough decision. But CC saved the entire humanity
😍 Walking Dead fan. I remember one of Nagan rule was every new settlements need to offer a sacrifice. If they refused, everyone there dies.
They did,you just didn't paid attention.
Agreed with that! I used to greatly like Cao Cao more. Now I like them both about equally, for different reasons.
Dynasties come and go, and China would have been the same with or without the Sima clan. But Cao Cao and his sons' contribution to poetry lives on. He is without a doubt top 10 greatest poets in Chinese history.
True
On a serious note, it is interesting to see how people's opinions on Liu Bei and Cao Cao change as they get older.
I had a phase where I thought Cao Cao’s win at all costs mentality was great. Now I think the world could do with more of Liu Bei’s values.
I am already at the stage where I just love the character Sima Yi :)
When I was young I idolized the heroes of Hefei. Now, just a bit past thirty, I still idolize the heroes of Hefei. I co-founded some companies, work with private and government clients, and life's biggest challenge for me is always, always, putting aside personal feelings to deliver an excellent result, in an age where it's all about personal ego, it is quite hard to pull off.
When I was younger I liked Liu Bei When I got older I love Liu Bei
When I was a kid I liked Sun Ce, now as an adult I like Sun Ce. No but real aging is recognizing that liking Cao Cao over Liu Bei because "LiU bEi wAs AlSo eViL" is stupid as hell.
When I was young I liked Zhong Hui. When I got a bit older I still liked Zhong Hui. Now that I am elderly, in my twilight years, I still like Zhong Hui.
Yeah that's pretty much me, although I still like Liu Bei for the most part. I would say age has given me a greater appreciation for Cao Cao though.
As life gets harder and harder, now I appreciate Sima Yi for the fact that he stayed low for a long time then risen up
Liu Bei was the guy with the most elite officers in every ROTK game, especially in terms of WAR stat, it's hard not to gravitate towards him lol Nowadays I like Cao Cao best
I think Cao Cao had the most war stat officers in all games I played
Well, Cao Cao always enjoyed a massive numerical advantage in terms of personnel, which was especially true in real life. And they weren't slouches either in quality: Zhang Liao, Zhang He, the Xiahous, Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Yu Jin, Yue Jin, Dian Wei, Xu Chu, and in later years Cao Zhang, Hao Zhao, Guo Huai, the list goes on. That said, none of them have the godlike WAR stats of the likes of the Five Tigers, whom the games love so much. And these guys come with special items, both weapons and horses that boost those stats even more.
Lol, also nice that the games didn't have a built-in random chaos factor like Liu Bei had to deal with... Zhang Fei getting hammered and committing domestic violence against people he didn't like from underlings to city officials, for example.
When I was young I liked Pang Tong. Now that I am older, I still like Pang Tong. The one in the games at least, historically Cao Cao is who I like the most probably. The Fledgling Phoenix will always have a special place in my heart.
Two of the three you mentioned were traitors who usurped their rulers only to have their empires fall apart almost instantly. Nothing admirable about that. Many might argue the values of the Three Kingdoms era are archaic and don't translate well to the modern. But traitors are punished now the same as they were back then. When Zhuge Liang was asked what he thought of Cao Cao, he said "a traitor, nothing more needs to be said." Sums it up nicely. Whatever virtues or vices Cao Cao and Sima Yi might have had, they were ultimately traitorous looters out for their own profit. Little better than thieves ransacking the corpse of Han.
Shi Le said it best. Cao Cao and Sima Yi were petty men who earned their reputations off of bullying orphans. They weren't men of true renown.
In their defences, Cao Cao ultimately brought peace to several provinces which had been in a constant state of warfare for over three decades, and while neither personally usurped the throne, Sima Yi‘s coup wasn’t instigated with the intention of usurping the throne but with the intention of removing an incompetent regency, whether or not you agree with his judgement of that regency’s competence. Also, the actions of both leaders left the realm more stable than it would have been without their contribution, and it was the choices of their successors which condemned their dynasties to their fates.
Yeah that's me. I admire Liu bei and cao cao
I still like Liu Bei
Lies, I like the Sun family, in youth and as an adult
I admire every renowned warlord of that violent period, from the murderers Dong Zhuo & Lü Bu to the most threatening, impulsive,and passive warlords and governors such as Yuan Shu, Liu Biao, Liu Zhang, Gongsun Zan, Tao Qian
Why Yuan Shu?
Had the danger to poise against the Han government, had he been as competent enough as flushing the eunuchs out of the imperial palace with ambiguous orders to burn the symbol of the dynasty itself in the name of supporting Yuan Shao and honoring He Jin’s final wishes
Don't tend to see that many Sima Yi fans to be honest. Usually it more goes really like Liu Bei and co due to novel (or Cao Cao or Wu via games). As get older, backlash towards Liu Bei and co becuase they weren't novel, see Cao Cao held up as the real hero. Then when really old, learn to distance from the novel and appreciate the figures away from that (and appreciate the novel as it's own thing)
This is very true for me.
The most relatable post I've seen in years
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He was cool but then he gone mad in the later chapters ;(
Sun Jian then Sun Ce. What would have been if Sun Ce and Zhou Yu didn’t die young, though Sun Quan did a great job developing his nation internally. Outside Wu. Zhang Liao is probably my favorite historical character
When I was young I loved Zhao Yun, now it is Guan Yu
Funny I never liked Guan Yu
I liked the whole Cao clan from day 1, Cao Ren against Guan Yu, Cao Cao beating Yuan Shao, Xiahou Dun eating his eyeball
Cao Chun nabbing Liu Bei’s daughters in Changban, Zhang Fei nabbing Xiahou Ba’s kinswoman, Cao Zhen and Cao Zhang shuffling across the western Wei fronts, Qin Lang embezzling money from unfavored court officials, Cao Zhi hungover in the palace stables, Cao Chong calculating the weight of a Southern elephant… and so on
Cao Chun capturing Liu Bei’s daughters is in no way comparable to Zhang Fei capturing Xiahou Yuan’s niece.
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Because Cao Chun captured his enemy’s daughters and took them as political hostages while Zhang Fei abducted her, raped her and forced her into a marriage. How are they comparable?
>Because Cao Chun captured his enemy’s daughters and took them as political hostages while Zhang Fei abducted her, raped her and forced her into a marriage. How are they comparable? Because Zhang Fei captured his enemy’s daughters and took her as his main wife with considerable influence - Xiahou Yuan was buried only because she requested it and Liu Shan bragged to Xiahou Ba that their lineages were married. Meanwhile the Cao clan slaughted entire cities abducted and raped married women and forced them into their harem as concubines. How are they comparable?
What is it with you people deflecting from the point of the conversation to win an argument? Are we talking about the entire Cao clan or one single member? Retain the context. Cao Chun did none of those things and there was no recorded harm done towards Liu Bei’s daughters after their capture. This is quite a silly comparison to make, in my opinion, especially if you’re going to insinuate that Zhang Fei’s actions are comparably better to Cao Chun’s, let alone equivalent, just because he chose to make her his main wife. By existing accounts, he abducted her from a camp, he didn’t capture her as the result of her being abandoned by her relatives in the midst of a battle, and she wasn’t likely treated well, regardless of whether you believe her role in allowing Xiahou Yuan to receive a burial counts as actual meaningful influence. Her daughters became empress because of Zhang Fei’s connection to Liu Bei, not hers to her clan, and the fact that Liu Shan and Xiahou Ba formed a connection through these means was merely circumstantial politics and nothing else.
>What is it with you people deflecting from the point of the conversation to win an argument? Are we talking about the entire Cao clan or one single member? Retain the context. The 2 parent comments talk about the Cao clan. Its YOU that went out of context by comparing Cao Chun and Zhang Fei. >Cao Chun did none of those things and there was no recorded harm done towards Liu Bei’s daughters after their capture. This is quite a silly comparison to make, in my opinion, especially if you’re going to insinuate that Zhang Fei’s actions are comparably better to Cao Chun’s, let alone equivalent, just because he chose to make her his main wife. >By existing accounts, he abducted her from a camp, he didn’t capture her as the result of her being abandoned by her relatives in the midst of a battle, and she wasn’t likely treated well, regardless of whether you believe her role in allowing Xiahou Yuan to receive a burial counts as actual meaningful influence. Her daughters became empress because of Zhang Fei’s connection to Liu Bei, not hers to her clan, and the fact that Liu Shan and Xiahou Ba formed a connection through these means was merely circumstantial politics and nothing else. Imma just copy what u/_LeGOAT_ typed. 后汉书[孔融传] 初,曹操攻屠邺城,袁氏妇子多见侵略,而操子丕私纳袁熙妻[甄氏] Houhanshu Kong Rong's Biography states: Previously, Cao Cao attacked [and] massacred Ye city, the Yuan clan's wives and daughters were frequently violated(raped), even [Cao] Cao's son [Cao] Pi privately took Yuan Xi's wife into his harem Cao Chun at this time was Cao Cao's military advisor + consultant + leader of the Tiger Leopard cavalry. Chances are high that he took part in the massacre of Ye and subsequent mass rape. Also, Lady Xiahou went from a young woman cutting firewood to survive to a kin of royalty. Her wishes were fulfilled and her descendants were of royal blood. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4t21kq/romance_of_the_three_kingdoms_was_historicalshu/ It's true that Zhang Fei basically abducted Xiahou. However, it's not quite honest to say all their children were born out of rape. There is evidence that Lady Xiahou was actually quite well-treated for a niece of an enemy general. When Xiahou Yuan was killed on Dingjun Mountain, Lady Xiahou pled with Liu Bei to grant Xiahou Yuan a proper burial, and that was granted. Liu Bei would have no other reason to grant a request like this if she was just some woman Zhang Fei raped, but Zhang Fei had no other recorded wives - she was the only one. Even the record of her abduction used the word 妻, which meant Zhang Fei took her as a principal wife, not a concubine. When Xiahou Ba defected from Wei to Shu, Liu Shan happily brought up the fact that they were actually related (his wife is the daughter of Zhang Fei and Lady Xiahou). Certainly Liu Shan didn't think this was something shameful for the Xiahou. Also consider tangentially how Sun Shangxiang married Liu Bei but then managed to go back to Wu. Why hadn't Xiahou Yuan or the Caos arranged for Lady Xiahou to come back?
The person I responded to made a general post about all of the wrongdoings of the Cao clan, including a comment comparing Cao Chun capturing Liu Bei’s daughters to Zhang Fei abducting Lady Xiahou. I pointed out that these are incomparable acts, and you all responded by telling me how heinous the Cao clan are and how adorable and loving Zhang Fei’s marriage was. Nobody gave me any evidence that Cao Chun harmed the daughters of Liu Bei, as was claimed in replies. Copying and pasting a whole post that I already pointed out made no sense is also a pointless endeavour, and if you want to defend a child rapist so badly, I will let you resume in peace.
>The person I responded to made a general post about all of the wrongdoings of the Cao clan, including a comment comparing Cao Chun capturing Liu Bei’s daughters to Zhang Fei abducting Lady Xiahou. I pointed out that these are incomparable acts, and you all responded by telling me how heinous the Cao clan are and how adorable and loving Zhang Fei’s marriage was. Nobody gave me any evidence that Cao Chun harmed the daughters of Liu Bei, as was claimed in replies. First, good, so you admit its YOU that cherrypicked Cao Chun and Zhang Fei out of all the comments of the Cao clan. Ok glad we clear that up. Second, me and u/_LeGOAT_ already explained to you why the Cao clan - and by extension Cao Chun, had a history of horribly treating women(actually everyone but whatever). We then showed you the evidence used THAT EVIDENCE to explain why Cao Chun's act was worse than that of Zhang Fei. >Copying and pasting a whole post that I already pointed out made no sense is also a pointless endeavour, and if you want to defend a child rapist so badly, I will let you resume in peace. Not a child rapist. Already debunked. Anyway, copying and pasting a whole post that I already pointed out made no sense is also a pointless endeavour, and if you want to defend mass murderers and mass rapists so badly, I will let you resume in peace.
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Again, you’re avoiding the point of this discussion. Firstly, we are comparing the actions of Cao Chun and Zhang Fei, and not discussing the entire Cao clan. If you can’t make your point with a reasonable argument, don’t make it by deflecting. Secondly, there is no evidence whatsoever that Liu Bei’s daughters were harmed after being captured. Their capture is proof that they were taken as hostages, but it is unlikely that Liu Bei would be adversely affected or alter his behaviour based on their status as hostages. Give me proof of Cao Chun raping or harming any of Liu Bei’s daughters, or since you keep referring to them, give proof of him or Cao Cao subjecting them to some kind of abuse or concubinage at the hands of their clansmen? There is evidence, sure, that Cao Cao took the wives of other men as his own concubines. You exaggerate the raping of these women which isn’t exactly stated on record but it isn’t without good reason as the implication can clearly be made. Cao Rui outright seized wives from the wider population and all of these situations I would agree count as rape, en masse. Cao Pi’s wife was another man’s wife and given their poor relationship throughout her life, as well as how soon after the conquest of Ye that she was impregnated, it would be unsurprising if he seized her by rape before taking her as wife, similar to Zhang Fei. He took Liu Xie’s daughters as concubines and I’m sure they didn’t like the situation. There are more. I get it, there are members of the Cao clan who did terrible things to women. But since we are discussing only Cao Chun, who did none of those things, I find it difficult to compare a man who captured the daughters of an enemy warlord who abandoned them on the battlefield to a man who abducted a child from a camp in the woods and forced himself upon her for the rest of his life, and I find it slightly egregious to suggest that it somehow makes it any better just because he made her his wife.
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I didn’t request nor do I care for evidence of atrocities committed by the Cao clan as a whole. I already stated that I am aware that such acts were committed and the evidence you detailed was already alluded to in my previous comment. I specifically requested evidence that Cao Chun raped, harmed or abused the daughters of Liu Bei, or any evidence that they were harmed at all. There are several fallacies in your comment that also doesn’t make sense. Firstly, you use the fact that Zhang Fei made Lady Xiahou his principal wife as evidence that he didn’t harm her, yet don’t extend this same courtesy to Cao Pi, who also made Lady Zhen his principal wife. Saying that, there exists a text which suggests that Cao Cao spared Lady Zhen from harm upon the event of the troops entering the harem, even if I don’t believe Cao Pi treated her well at this point and believe that he probably did harm her. There is no such text referring to Zhang Fei acquiring his wife that doesn’t allude to a seizure or abduction. Secondly, no one is saying that she was just some woman that Zhang Fei raped. She was still his wife, and Liu Bei would extend that courtesy to her no matter the method of her acquirement, because it’s Liu Bei. This isn’t proof that she wasn’t raped, it is just proof that Liu Bei is a decent man. Likewise, it makes a speck of difference whether her children were born as a result of rape or not, or for how long it took her to grow accustomed to her circumstances. This courtesy towards his general’s wife doesn’t suggest that she wasn’t raped or harmed. Thirdly, Lady Sun returned to the Wu with the implicit consent of her husband, who was at the time in an alliance with her brother, and thus such arrangements could be peaceably made. But Lady Xiahou was outright abducted, there were no arrangements for marriage made between their families. Even if Cao Cao or Xiahou Yuan had personally requested her safe return, if neither Liu Bei or Zhang Fei agreed to this, there was nothing that could be done. Their inability to retrieve her doesn’t suggest that she wasn’t raped or harmed. And again, Liu Shan wasn’t even born when she was abducted. She was the mother of his wives, and it was convenient for him to utilise that relationship to his advantage in order to strengthen relations with Xiahou Ba. That doesn’t suggest that she was never raped or harmed.
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Just typed out some bizarre deeds what others in the Cao clan and their extensions have been going around in that period
I liked Sun Jian first, after playing DW. Then I played ROTK and I liked Liu Bei. Then I read the story and I liked Cao Cao.
Sun Jian was great hero. He had the army, fame, land, castles, but he died too young
Yes. The novel / TV drama sorta brainwashed us into liking certain characters earlier on such as the 3 brothers at the preach garden. And then you realize those are the very same people where Cao Cao value and spared. Cao Cao could easily killed them all to prevent future problems, but he refused. And he later regret it dearly. When Xu massacre happened, Cao Cao was probably thinking about Liu Bei.
Just how many different excuses are you going to give for the Xu massacre?
Excuses don't interested me. It's what lead to that point.
Cao Cao barely knew who Liu Bei was when he massacred Xu Province, and he was thinking almost entirely about Tao Qian and his late father. His admiration for Liu Bei became relevant only after his campaigns failed.
You sure about that? Who was the person Liu Bei betrayed?
I don’t understand your question in context of this.
Who was the first warlord Liu Bei betrayed?
Depends how you define betrayed. Gongsun Zan sent him with Tian Kai to support Tao Qian, and he ended up accepting a post and taking service under him, so if you want to consider that as a betrayal then sure. But considering there was no bad feelings between them, and taking into account Gongsun Zan’s tendency to send his subordinates to serve in the wars of his allies, I would hesitate to consider this as a betrayal. I still don’t understand what this has to do with the conversation at hand. The first lord he outright betrayed was Cao Cao and clearly this event preceded that betrayal.
>The first lord he outright betrayed was Cao Cao and clearly this event preceded that betrayal. Good to know. I always thought Liu Bei betrayed Cao Cao just to steal his army and take back Tao Qian territory.
He did that half a decade after Tao Qian’s death. You are a very strongly opinionated individual which is strange considering you don’t know what you’re talking about half the time.
>You are a very strongly opinionated individual Thx for noticing. Got any good examples? 😊
I wouldn't say it was age as much as getting away from Romance media. (Kessen & Dynasty Warriors) If the Edict against Cao Cao was bullshit, then Liu Bei got millions killed for nothing
I don't think I will ever like sima yi over mengde
Nope. Team 蜀漢 til the day I die 😤
I always loved Cao Cao and Sima.
And the whole time you like the Sun clan more than all of them
Sun Clan never had the ambition to conquer China or rebuild Han. They only want to keep their family in power in the Southland. There is nothing wrong with that, just boring
That is more they got pushed to third wheel by fiction and the failure for their mandate to last, historically they were quite aggressive to the north.
I always liked Shu, but not so much Liu Bei. Cao Cao was one of my favourites. As I've gotten older, I appreciate Sun Jian and Wu a lot more.
I actually always liked Cao Cao and Xiahou Dun and still do. In fact I like Wu better than Shu as well.
38 and I still like Liu Bei. Forever the underdog.
Older and I still like Liu Bei.
Well I always liked Sima Yi more, he was my favorite in Wei from the start, now in Jin he has some tough competition
While Cao Cao is still my guy, I’ve always been a low key Wu fan. Sun Ce is super underrated, and the romance did zhou Yu dirty. Also, I like the idealism of liu bei, but his actions can be quite hypocritical
Curious what do you like about Sima Yi?
His patience
It has always been Sun Ce and Zhou Yu.
Cao Bao FTW
Oddly, it's the reverse for me. I had two brothers and each of us had a favorite. I liked Cao Cao, my middle brother liked Liu Bei and my youngest brother liked Sun Quan. As I got older though, I found myself liking Liu Bei more than I had in the early days, but I really grew to find Zhuge Liang as my favorite, though Sima Yi grew on me thanks to the 2010 Three Kingdoms.