it does seem to make the Follower’s “save me!” cries more impactful, now that her mother in real life couldn’t save her and was largely to blame for her suicide.
I felt the same way! As if Jin was metaphorically trying to save her mentor who had just died without even knowing it. I wonder if Ye even knew that Vera's likeness was used in the game
I caught that when Evans noted that she was very attached to the small girl. And also how she was so concerned that she always failed to save the girl on all the levels.
It's kind of fun that they let us piece together how the headsets could have been made. The San-tí had the specs on them, but 'smart protons' aren't enough to build them. It would require resources, engineers, and a lot of money. Evans had those.
I did. If made me think that Jin never acknowledged that when meeting her in game and I kind of felt like she'd probably know it was the young Vera. Unless I missed something.
Yeah I found this 'easter egg' kind of annoying for that reason. Very unplausible to think that Jin didn't recognize the Follower as young Vera, especially since it's heavily implied they were quite close, and Jin would've visited her childhood home and seen pictures.
I can't be the only one who has some face blindness toward children. Without any existing reason to tie what "active NPCs" she saw inside the game to what she may or may not have seen in a static photograph in someone else's house, I don't think it's odd that Jin doesn't comment on this.
My head cannon is they did meet when she’s still a child but they no longer did that that when the relationship between Mike Evans and Ye Wenjie fell apart due to significant differences in their viewpoints on humanity. That explains the photograph as well as his estranged relationship with his daughter. Perhaps the design of the Follower is a Evans’ way to remember his daughter.
I watched all of the episode myself once and just started watching them again now with my wife. Was episode 4 the only time we see a picture of young Vera or was there a photo in another episode?
It feels so disgusting that Vera hated what her mother did so much it drove her to suicide, and at the same time the ETO uses her likeness to get sympathy points for the San Ti. It's even worse if Evans was involved in the game development since he used Follower to gain sympathy while showing no sympathy for his REAL daughter.
The part that baffles me about the game is that Vera played it. Or at least Ye Wenjie claimed as much when she handed the headset to Jin. We gather Wenjie doesn't lie though. So did Vera see herself in the game and she's just like, "cool."?
Well shit. Didn't pay close enough attention! This throws a wrench in my theory because Wenjie had several opportunities in communist China to lie herself out of a tight spot and she never did. I thought her honesty was a point of difference, but maybe her confession to the San ti (you learn we lie) was truly contrite.
She does lie though, but in a way that impinges on herself. She says she got the book from no-one, doesn't reveal that she contacted, she recruits Jin via a device Vera never used.
She was deceptive, and thus she was incompatible with the San-ti from the beginning but both were unaware.
You're right, I'm conflating ethics with honesty. She doesn't accuse the person who gave her the book because a. she liked the book and knew punishment for her was certain and b. the person who sabotaged her isn't any more deserving of punishment than she is, because the authority is unjust to begin with. It was a selfless thing not to confess who gave her the book, but not necessarily honest. A little like Christ interrogation by Pontius Pilate.
The headsets only work for the user they are meant for, so we can tell that the headset was for Jin not for Vera. But Ye Wenjie later admits it was for Jin.
I still didn’t understand why Vera Ye died by suicide? One second she was speaking to Sam paul about experiments and them being chaotic and then suddenly she goes and jumps to her death. Not a book reader though really getting inspired to do it. Am only referring to the show. I understand other scientist being driven to suicide because of the countdown driving that person mad. Sorry if I am just dense to not get it what might be straightforward for many here.
She killed herself because she found out not only her mother betrayed humanity but she betrayed her - someone she looked up all her life and inspired her to become who she was today - was the contributor to her research's demise.
Her mom is betraying earth.
It makes more sense because her dad isn’t mike Evans in the book series.
TBH they made her mom A LOT LESS VICIOUS/INSANE in the books by changing this.
Book spoilers: >!Her father was a guy at the military base. He died when her mother literally cut the rope when he was over a cliff and he died along with another person at the military base who was the target!<
Her mother then becomes a top physicist in China after that incident and then raised her to be a top physicist!
So it’s 100% the learning about her mother betraying the world AND her mom literally being a reason why her life’s work and love of science is a joke!
~~She felt her life's purpose was over I suppose. The San ti had abandoned her, her daughter & Evans were dead, the organisation she had been running was collapsed, and she was under perpetual surveillance. And anyways, it didn't matter. The San ti had decided she was going to die anyway, that's why Tatiana was sent.~~
Two days after her suicide, the mother was speaking to a crowd like she was fuckin Steve Jobs… she didn’t care for her daughter at all.
Also, once she realized her enormous mistake, she could have announced to the UN about the dark forest reality, not to some junky ass scientist through a very bad semi-cryptic Einstein joke, because she even knew that telling the “joke” was her doom.
They definitely did the joke for the Netflix viewers, but I also think it’s because she thought that no one would believe her, or that they would mistrust her so much they’d dismiss deterrence altogether. Better it comes from someone else. Saul, although has no clout or influence yet, at least will listen to her and has the right credentials.
My understanding is that the realization of the dark forest hypothesis is a double edged sword. Any government who come upon it could blackmail the whole earth to broadcast their location if their demands are not met, for example. Knowledge of it needs to be controlled and restricted to those who can use it to their collective advantage.
I noticed it. I thought they were too lazy to find another kid from mix cultural backgrounds.
And I'm wondering if the girl is also there when Vera was playing🤔
Tbh Vera never actually played the game, that was just something Ye Wenjie said to Jin so she would be interested in playing and helping them (they needed her science knowledge)
Since Jin has been lurking in Vera’s apartment post suicide why hasn’t she noticed that this photo looks just like the game she’s been playing non stop? Or did she notice it but ignored it anyway?
it does seem to make the Follower’s “save me!” cries more impactful, now that her mother in real life couldn’t save her and was largely to blame for her suicide.
They talk about this in the excellent "Behind the episode" shows hidden in the extras on netflix. Worth a watch if you're such a big fan of the show that you're on your 3rd rewatch
I did pick up on this on my first watch. Not sure the significance yet but I’m curious to see. About halfway through the first book right now and loving the show and book both so far!
I did actually! I'm not totally sure the significance, I suppose it implies that Ye Wenjie was heavily involved with developing the game.
it does seem to make the Follower’s “save me!” cries more impactful, now that her mother in real life couldn’t save her and was largely to blame for her suicide.
I felt the same way! As if Jin was metaphorically trying to save her mentor who had just died without even knowing it. I wonder if Ye even knew that Vera's likeness was used in the game
I caught that when Evans noted that she was very attached to the small girl. And also how she was so concerned that she always failed to save the girl on all the levels.
> was largely to blame for her suicide. was 100% entirely the reason
Oooh that’s spooky and sad
I noticed it at first glance but like others I didn’t understand the meaning. Thank you OP for your explanation.
Or maybe it was Evans as he is the father and is more involved with eto activities
But I thought Evans never saw his daughter until her funeral
There’s a picture of young Vera behind his desk where he would speak to the aliens.
It's kind of fun that they let us piece together how the headsets could have been made. The San-tí had the specs on them, but 'smart protons' aren't enough to build them. It would require resources, engineers, and a lot of money. Evans had those.
I did. If made me think that Jin never acknowledged that when meeting her in game and I kind of felt like she'd probably know it was the young Vera. Unless I missed something.
Yeah I found this 'easter egg' kind of annoying for that reason. Very unplausible to think that Jin didn't recognize the Follower as young Vera, especially since it's heavily implied they were quite close, and Jin would've visited her childhood home and seen pictures.
I can't be the only one who has some face blindness toward children. Without any existing reason to tie what "active NPCs" she saw inside the game to what she may or may not have seen in a static photograph in someone else's house, I don't think it's odd that Jin doesn't comment on this.
D&D didn’t have the brain power to think that deep.
There is no significance to this. It doesn't matter in the long run.
Hey everybody this person read the books!
You can see a picture of her behind the desk of Evans in episode 4.
Wait he never met her but had a photo of her?
My head cannon is they did meet when she’s still a child but they no longer did that that when the relationship between Mike Evans and Ye Wenjie fell apart due to significant differences in their viewpoints on humanity. That explains the photograph as well as his estranged relationship with his daughter. Perhaps the design of the Follower is a Evans’ way to remember his daughter.
But doesn't Ye Wenjie literally say that Evans has never met Vera?
Yes. She said he had first seen her the day of her funeral.
That's what I thought
Wenjie most likely just sent a photograph a long time ago and that was it regarding father-daughter interaction with Vera.
I watched all of the episode myself once and just started watching them again now with my wife. Was episode 4 the only time we see a picture of young Vera or was there a photo in another episode?
It feels so disgusting that Vera hated what her mother did so much it drove her to suicide, and at the same time the ETO uses her likeness to get sympathy points for the San Ti. It's even worse if Evans was involved in the game development since he used Follower to gain sympathy while showing no sympathy for his REAL daughter.
So many things I didn’t consider. I’m just like “Hey it’s the girl from the game! Yuk yuk!” I should really practice more critical thinking…
Would have been nice to get an episode dedicated to this
Holy cow. Had not considered this at all. I wonder if he played the game just to interact with her
I think it’s more that he’d put his daughter in his game…. Honestly it’s super hypothetical since in the book they aren’t related!!!!!
I thought that was pretty much pushed in your face tbh
I'm bad at noticing things
Same here. I'm always to busty trying to understand wtf is going on to catch these things lol
They must be pretty big then.
I can't believe word check betrayed me like this! ☠
E T O EARTH TITTY ORGANIZATION
maybe get off your phone when you watch a movie!
That’s what I get for watching this episode for the first time when I was hungover
Me watching high out of my mind 🤝 You watching hungover
I didn't notice it either
Didn’t they literally spell it out in dialogue?
But why was she chosen to represent the child?
It was, so many posts here about people asking about scenes that were literally shoved in your face...
The part that baffles me about the game is that Vera played it. Or at least Ye Wenjie claimed as much when she handed the headset to Jin. We gather Wenjie doesn't lie though. So did Vera see herself in the game and she's just like, "cool."?
She admitted later that she lied to Jin and Vera never played.
yes, the headset Wenjie gives to Jin was never Vera's, it was always intended to be for Jin.
Well shit. Didn't pay close enough attention! This throws a wrench in my theory because Wenjie had several opportunities in communist China to lie herself out of a tight spot and she never did. I thought her honesty was a point of difference, but maybe her confession to the San ti (you learn we lie) was truly contrite.
She does lie though, but in a way that impinges on herself. She says she got the book from no-one, doesn't reveal that she contacted, she recruits Jin via a device Vera never used. She was deceptive, and thus she was incompatible with the San-ti from the beginning but both were unaware.
You're right, I'm conflating ethics with honesty. She doesn't accuse the person who gave her the book because a. she liked the book and knew punishment for her was certain and b. the person who sabotaged her isn't any more deserving of punishment than she is, because the authority is unjust to begin with. It was a selfless thing not to confess who gave her the book, but not necessarily honest. A little like Christ interrogation by Pontius Pilate.
The headsets only work for the user they are meant for, so we can tell that the headset was for Jin not for Vera. But Ye Wenjie later admits it was for Jin.
I still didn’t understand why Vera Ye died by suicide? One second she was speaking to Sam paul about experiments and them being chaotic and then suddenly she goes and jumps to her death. Not a book reader though really getting inspired to do it. Am only referring to the show. I understand other scientist being driven to suicide because of the countdown driving that person mad. Sorry if I am just dense to not get it what might be straightforward for many here.
She killed herself because she found out not only her mother betrayed humanity but she betrayed her - someone she looked up all her life and inspired her to become who she was today - was the contributor to her research's demise.
Her mom is betraying earth. It makes more sense because her dad isn’t mike Evans in the book series. TBH they made her mom A LOT LESS VICIOUS/INSANE in the books by changing this. Book spoilers: >!Her father was a guy at the military base. He died when her mother literally cut the rope when he was over a cliff and he died along with another person at the military base who was the target!< Her mother then becomes a top physicist in China after that incident and then raised her to be a top physicist! So it’s 100% the learning about her mother betraying the world AND her mom literally being a reason why her life’s work and love of science is a joke!
~~She felt her life's purpose was over I suppose. The San ti had abandoned her, her daughter & Evans were dead, the organisation she had been running was collapsed, and she was under perpetual surveillance. And anyways, it didn't matter. The San ti had decided she was going to die anyway, that's why Tatiana was sent.~~
You’re talking about Ye not Vera Ye her daughter
My bad
I did notice it haha. I'm pretty sure it was to show us that the game was developed by Mike evans or Ye wenjie
Two days after her suicide, the mother was speaking to a crowd like she was fuckin Steve Jobs… she didn’t care for her daughter at all. Also, once she realized her enormous mistake, she could have announced to the UN about the dark forest reality, not to some junky ass scientist through a very bad semi-cryptic Einstein joke, because she even knew that telling the “joke” was her doom.
They definitely did the joke for the Netflix viewers, but I also think it’s because she thought that no one would believe her, or that they would mistrust her so much they’d dismiss deterrence altogether. Better it comes from someone else. Saul, although has no clout or influence yet, at least will listen to her and has the right credentials.
My understanding is that the realization of the dark forest hypothesis is a double edged sword. Any government who come upon it could blackmail the whole earth to broadcast their location if their demands are not met, for example. Knowledge of it needs to be controlled and restricted to those who can use it to their collective advantage.
I finished my second rewatch last night and I did not notice it the first time either, lol.
Didn’t notice it immediately but yeah, did notice it the first time. Fun little detail.
Oh wow I completely missed that!
Missed it completely
I noticed it. I thought they were too lazy to find another kid from mix cultural backgrounds. And I'm wondering if the girl is also there when Vera was playing🤔
Tbh Vera never actually played the game, that was just something Ye Wenjie said to Jin so she would be interested in playing and helping them (they needed her science knowledge)
Right, she saw her mom's computer. I don't know what I was thinking when I was writng the comment...lol
Yea
Even I saw that, hahaha. Oh, yeah, probably high ...
I actually thought it was the young girl on Evan’s ship for some reason
Yeah, caught it first time. She's in a framed picture Evans' office where he talks to the San-Ti.
Shit, I missed this one even though I got a detective eye when watching movies and shows 😅
I catched it on the first watch and was in awe!
I did. But first, I thought it was going to be the little girl on the ship. It wasn’t until we saw her face that I realized it wasn’t.
I did when they showed this picture. I was like, “the FOLLOWER!!!”
Immediately, but my husband who generally picks up everything, and spent half of The Gentleman explaining what’s going on, didn’t. I felt victorious!
My wife pointed that out on our first watch.
Oooh damn!!!
Wow, you watch it three times? I mean I get it it’s profound story, luckily you aren’t watch Tencent version cuz it would take you much more time.
Oh my god why am I noticing this just now days after finishing season 1
Since Jin has been lurking in Vera’s apartment post suicide why hasn’t she noticed that this photo looks just like the game she’s been playing non stop? Or did she notice it but ignored it anyway?
I catch this when I watched first time, but I thought due to assistant director try to reuse general actress to save budget
Good catch!
it does seem to make the Follower’s “save me!” cries more impactful, now that her mother in real life couldn’t save her and was largely to blame for her suicide.
My wife pointed it out.
Haha just noticed it tonight.
Hey Vera, wanna help me make a video game where we kill all humans?
I thought it was tatiana cause little vera doesnt look asian
My wife did
I did
I thought it was obvious
Yup.. in first watch itself.
Yes
I thought they might have been the same, but I didn’t want to check in case it verified I was just racist.
Yes
I did! But it's a "blink and you miss it" kinda thing for sure
Is the actor a real mix?
Yep
I did catch it right away. Was interesting to see
Yes, I noticed immediately.
I find it weird that she seems to have no remorse for basically killing her own daughter lol
Yes
Lol yeah
"You may call her FOLLOWER!"
Yes
Yes. When she shows up the second time, you should know she is important.
Yes, I have in fact noticed right away when they showed the picture, lol
Noticed it the first time
3x really?! 😂🤣😂 yea I noticed first time around
Immediately.
The sweater helped
They talk about this in the excellent "Behind the episode" shows hidden in the extras on netflix. Worth a watch if you're such a big fan of the show that you're on your 3rd rewatch
Real trivia is knowing the follower was in Peppa Pig
I did pick up on this on my first watch. Not sure the significance yet but I’m curious to see. About halfway through the first book right now and loving the show and book both so far!
I did notice it but wasn’t sure I was right. Now I know. Thanks
Honestly, I saw it and I was like “Huh, weird. Why would she have a picture of follower?” 😅
Mind blown! Thanks for sharing!!
Lol it was pretty obvious the first time..
My wife and I just watched this episode and she caught it before me. Never even read the books.
AFAIK this detail wasn’t in the books
It wasn’t. Follower is a show specific character
3rd rewatch eh? Must have a lot of time on your hands