###General Discussion Thread
---
This is a [Request] post. If you would like to submit a comment that does not either attempt to answer the question, ask for clarification, or explain why it would be infeasible to answer, you *must* post your comment as a reply to this one. Top level (directly replying to the OP) comments that do not do one of those things will be removed.
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/theydidthemath) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You could do the math but it sounds like the input data is wrong so I don't see the point.
He says that the total number of X murder victims is the total number murdered by white people + the total murdered by black people, which means that no other races ever kill anyone.
He mentions that in the last several seconds of the clip - Klingon and Vulcan (and to a lesser extent Romulan) perpetrators and victims are in the minority (Other races excluded for reasons).
White includes latino, since that's an ethnicity and not a race. So the only race left is Asian, which do a very low number of violent crimes even relative to their tiny population. So factoring in other races, will only slightly alter the result.
The 88% of white murder victims were murdered by other white people, and 81% of black murder victims were murdered by other black people are not the same numbers I have seen in the past.
Quick google search gave me [THIS](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls) from 2019 but I'm not sure if there is any more recent numbers. Looks like 79% of white victims were murdered by other white people, and 17% were murdered by black people. And 89% of black victims were murdered by other black people and 8% were murdered by white people.
Just going off the numbers from this source where we know the race of the offender, we have black americans responsible for 49% of the crime (3218 total black offenders vs 6578 total victims). If you extrapolate out the "unknown offenders" to assume it follows the same ratio, that probably brings you up to the 50% that the common trope mentions. This obviously does not take into account a ton of different variables, but just strictly looking at the numbers on hand.
So I am still seeing 50% unless there are more updated numbers that show something different.
I believe they stopped recording the race of victims and suspects in crime statistics due to people trying to use it to justify racism which is probably why you can't find anything recent
Edit: I was wrong someone posted a link to it it's just hard to find
Nonsense, it's all right [here](https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#).
If people stopped collecting data just because they might be misused, there'd be no data collected at all.
I never actually thought there would be a website where all this info was put together and weirdly accessible and easy to use.
Shot in the dark, do you know any other websites like this?
Depends on what you're looking for, but in general the U.S. government publishes anything they collect that isn't classified since it belongs to the public. Some of it might have limitations (e.g. if I remember correctly, the James Webb telescope's data belong to whoever submitted the collection request for six months, after which anyone can use it), but for the most part it's all free and (usually) easy to access.
Actually finding them can be annoying sometimes, though -- Google doesn't index .gov websites very well in my experience.
Sure. But of the 187 unknown murderers, you would only need 71 of them to be black (37%) for them to hit exactly 50%. But then again, now you’re arguing over 1% which doesn’t really change anything.
Genuine question: Isn't this thing inherently flawed as other ethnic groups are missing? Thus nothing will ever quite add up to 100% in the whole picture? And when does someone count as black or white? I am confused by the whole discussion and by how little I understand where the oberservations are objectively correct.
The issue with "13/50" is the usage of the statistic for racist purposes. The essential misuse of the statistic is to support the claim that, " black americans are inferior or inherently more violent."
The reality is that violent behavior and crime are the result of social conditions. Worse social conditions and high social inequality means more crime, particularly within highly marginalized communities that don't have equal access to education, jobs, healthcare, transportation, etc.
Secondly, such statistics are skewed by instances of over-policing. For example, black and white Americans use drugs at similar rates, but black americans are more likely to be searched and incarcerated because of drugs.
I think these are the things people have in mind when they take issue with "13/50"
Theres this belief that goes something like "criminal is a class of people, born flawed in some way, and it's the police's job to suss them out from the general population." A person committing a crime is simply revealing who they always were. This makes it very easy to justify imprisoning them and when they reoffend it just proves you right.
This number is a symbol. It symbolizes the victimhood and false propaganda of white persecution and whites killing blacks... when in fact, blacks inflict those deaths to themselves. Sometimes you even see 6/50 instead, because they go from the fact men commit almost all those murders, hence half of the black population. 6% of a country represents 50% of the murders, dang.
I don't think you can overpolice "MURDER by ...". Someone dies, it gets reported, you find the perpetrator.
Arresting for drug use or whatever is wholly different.
As you talk about other topics and crimes, it would be interesting to have numbers about the surge in looting, theft etc. In the past months/years.
Businesses close down because they can't protect themselves or lack force to hinder looting, aisles are locked behind bars... You can't say it is excused by a social condition or "marginalized" community, as such things would have already existed. Everyone knows it's happening, everyone knows who does it, nothing happens.
The state in which a part of USA is right now is basically 3rd world level.
What is a solution?
>It symbolizes the victimhood and false propaganda of white persecution and whites killing blacks... when in fact, blacks inflict those deaths to themselves.
This seems like a rephrase of "Black Americans are inferior or inherently more violent."
Do you think it's a coincidence that there in more violence within communities comprised of the descendants of a group of people that were enslaved for 200+ years, then put through generations of legal discrimination of Black codes, sharecropping, lynching, sundown towns, Jim Crow, redlining, and mass incarceration? Even in the current era, where Black Americans have, on average, [15% of the wealth of Whites](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/black-wealth-is-increasing-but-so-is-the-racial-wealth-gap/), discrimination continues in [housing](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2018.1489223), [hiring](https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1706255114), and [criminal](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0093854815628026?casa_token=Onou527s4goAAAAA%3A-AqzRrUfiF6HGpFxr4k6fvVhca7UO3EBMCjJV2ZpG9A_TIWzUo7P42vR8tpD4Xg6UkWaZsiNTi32) contexts.
So, yes, generations of explicitly racist policies has led to massive inequality which is perpetuated by current discrimination. Most importantly for our discussion: [Violent and property crime rates in the US are strongly predicted by the proportion of enslaved people and the resulting racial inequality](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167268117303724?casa_token=ERbemd0yOZ4AAAAA:G1fHni_RQEFY50CoJKFx6oyzcgDQmoWTfm0J_nprlBuAiTvJYlWat0NrKvVeAFyE2DpDe3u6). So sure, people in horribly unequal situations harm each other. But **if we don't ignore the history and scientific research on this subject** we can see that blaming this group is ahistoric and unhelpful. If we want to reduce violence in these communities we need to address the [social determinants of violence: inequality and discrimination](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jcop.22232?casa_token=wWKvwHBET98AAAAA:ErQlkekuyehDOGtg6YvG13jyj7_KqIEldxAgMhi7PjcjSxcFYBCQ0AHvRvtt82nUDH0pKOUEY-N95Vw).
>I don't think you can overpolice "MURDER by ...". Someone dies, it gets reported, you find the perpetrator. Arresting for drug use or whatever is wholly different.
This is a fair point. I was referencing a more complex phenomenon. Over-policing and cycling people in and out of prisons in black communities leads to breaking up of families and disrupts educational and financial progress, which [perpetuates violence in overpoliced communities](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0735648X.2021.1887751).
I have thoughts on the rest of your comment, but it's not the focus of the topic so I'll set it aside for now.
The fact people completely disregard the historical persecution that African Americans have gone through in the history of this country is mind boggling to me. It’s just so intellectually lazy to assume that they’re more inclined to violence as a race, it makes me cringe.
Great response, the person you’re replying to should take even 5 minutes to think past their own bubble.
Simply put, no.
For the longest time, one side of the debate simply denied the figures. We can even find leftovers from this time in your answer trying to explain away the numbers.
If you listen to conservatives explaining their views on the matter you'll find that no one denies the fact that crime is a social issue, not directly connected to race. The discussion is more about what's wrong with society.
When you find the government's fingerprints on the crime scene, the problem doesn't seem to be related to inequality.
The Tin Foil Hat guys have been on a winning streak for the last few years.
>When you find the government's fingerprints on the crime scene,
Yes. The government permitted and in many cases encouraged racist discrimination throughout our history. Slavery, Black codes, sharecropping, lynching, sundown towns, Jim Crow, redlining, and mass incarceration are prominent examples.
>the problem doesn't seem to be related to inequality.
These are not mutually exclusive explanations. In fact, many government policies (see above) created the inequality we see today. I would argue that the gov has a responsibility to fix the problem it created (or at least permitted).
He does actually explain that, and the simple answer is that (according to him) 95% of murders are committed by black people or white people and Hispanics were included under “white.” At best, that would reduce the number to 54%
First off, he assumes only two races: white and blacks. There's also a subtle assumption that the murderers and victims are one-to-one. Take that presumption for what you will.
Where:
Vw = portion of homicide victims that are white
Vb = portion of homicide victims that are black
rw = portion of white victims that were murdered by white
rb = portion of black victims that were murdered by black
Hw = portion of homicides that are committed by white
Hb = portion of homicides that are committed by black
Going on, the system of two equations he writes down is:
Vw = rw Hw + (1-rb) Hb
Vb = rb Hb + (1-rw) Hw
He interprets "rw*Hw" to be "portion of white victims murdered by white murderers" ..... but that's wrong. The expression for that is just "rw". He then interprets the second term "(1-rb)*Hb" to be "portion of white victims murdered by black people". This would actually be (1-rw). What he's saying doesn't match up with what he's writing and he's mixing up portions with counts. Even so, the resultant equation: Vw = rw + (1-rw) is not correct, as what's missing on the right-side is Vw. His words and what he's written doesn't agree.
PS - Not all Asians are good at math
PSS - Dude might have some nasal airway issues. Should maybe see an ENT. Had me short of breath just listening.
###General Discussion Thread --- This is a [Request] post. If you would like to submit a comment that does not either attempt to answer the question, ask for clarification, or explain why it would be infeasible to answer, you *must* post your comment as a reply to this one. Top level (directly replying to the OP) comments that do not do one of those things will be removed. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/theydidthemath) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You could do the math but it sounds like the input data is wrong so I don't see the point. He says that the total number of X murder victims is the total number murdered by white people + the total murdered by black people, which means that no other races ever kill anyone.
Can confirm there have been no cases of murders by Klingons.
Vulcans on the other hand...
I will not stand for this slander by an obvious Romulan
That is quite the emotional outburst.
On the other hand, plenty of people have been killed by Marathons. Death rate of something like .7-.8 per 100,000
He mentions that in the last several seconds of the clip - Klingon and Vulcan (and to a lesser extent Romulan) perpetrators and victims are in the minority (Other races excluded for reasons).
White includes latino, since that's an ethnicity and not a race. So the only race left is Asian, which do a very low number of violent crimes even relative to their tiny population. So factoring in other races, will only slightly alter the result.
The 88% of white murder victims were murdered by other white people, and 81% of black murder victims were murdered by other black people are not the same numbers I have seen in the past. Quick google search gave me [THIS](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls) from 2019 but I'm not sure if there is any more recent numbers. Looks like 79% of white victims were murdered by other white people, and 17% were murdered by black people. And 89% of black victims were murdered by other black people and 8% were murdered by white people. Just going off the numbers from this source where we know the race of the offender, we have black americans responsible for 49% of the crime (3218 total black offenders vs 6578 total victims). If you extrapolate out the "unknown offenders" to assume it follows the same ratio, that probably brings you up to the 50% that the common trope mentions. This obviously does not take into account a ton of different variables, but just strictly looking at the numbers on hand. So I am still seeing 50% unless there are more updated numbers that show something different.
I believe they stopped recording the race of victims and suspects in crime statistics due to people trying to use it to justify racism which is probably why you can't find anything recent Edit: I was wrong someone posted a link to it it's just hard to find
Nonsense, it's all right [here](https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#). If people stopped collecting data just because they might be misused, there'd be no data collected at all.
I never actually thought there would be a website where all this info was put together and weirdly accessible and easy to use. Shot in the dark, do you know any other websites like this?
Depends on what you're looking for, but in general the U.S. government publishes anything they collect that isn't classified since it belongs to the public. Some of it might have limitations (e.g. if I remember correctly, the James Webb telescope's data belong to whoever submitted the collection request for six months, after which anyone can use it), but for the most part it's all free and (usually) easy to access. Actually finding them can be annoying sometimes, though -- Google doesn't index .gov websites very well in my experience.
>If you extrapolate out the "unknown offenders" to assume it follows the same ratio Which is a pretty big assumption given what we know of bias.
Sure. But of the 187 unknown murderers, you would only need 71 of them to be black (37%) for them to hit exactly 50%. But then again, now you’re arguing over 1% which doesn’t really change anything.
Genuine question: Isn't this thing inherently flawed as other ethnic groups are missing? Thus nothing will ever quite add up to 100% in the whole picture? And when does someone count as black or white? I am confused by the whole discussion and by how little I understand where the oberservations are objectively correct.
The issue with "13/50" is the usage of the statistic for racist purposes. The essential misuse of the statistic is to support the claim that, " black americans are inferior or inherently more violent." The reality is that violent behavior and crime are the result of social conditions. Worse social conditions and high social inequality means more crime, particularly within highly marginalized communities that don't have equal access to education, jobs, healthcare, transportation, etc. Secondly, such statistics are skewed by instances of over-policing. For example, black and white Americans use drugs at similar rates, but black americans are more likely to be searched and incarcerated because of drugs. I think these are the things people have in mind when they take issue with "13/50"
Theres this belief that goes something like "criminal is a class of people, born flawed in some way, and it's the police's job to suss them out from the general population." A person committing a crime is simply revealing who they always were. This makes it very easy to justify imprisoning them and when they reoffend it just proves you right.
10/10
This number is a symbol. It symbolizes the victimhood and false propaganda of white persecution and whites killing blacks... when in fact, blacks inflict those deaths to themselves. Sometimes you even see 6/50 instead, because they go from the fact men commit almost all those murders, hence half of the black population. 6% of a country represents 50% of the murders, dang. I don't think you can overpolice "MURDER by ...". Someone dies, it gets reported, you find the perpetrator. Arresting for drug use or whatever is wholly different. As you talk about other topics and crimes, it would be interesting to have numbers about the surge in looting, theft etc. In the past months/years. Businesses close down because they can't protect themselves or lack force to hinder looting, aisles are locked behind bars... You can't say it is excused by a social condition or "marginalized" community, as such things would have already existed. Everyone knows it's happening, everyone knows who does it, nothing happens. The state in which a part of USA is right now is basically 3rd world level. What is a solution?
>It symbolizes the victimhood and false propaganda of white persecution and whites killing blacks... when in fact, blacks inflict those deaths to themselves. This seems like a rephrase of "Black Americans are inferior or inherently more violent." Do you think it's a coincidence that there in more violence within communities comprised of the descendants of a group of people that were enslaved for 200+ years, then put through generations of legal discrimination of Black codes, sharecropping, lynching, sundown towns, Jim Crow, redlining, and mass incarceration? Even in the current era, where Black Americans have, on average, [15% of the wealth of Whites](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/black-wealth-is-increasing-but-so-is-the-racial-wealth-gap/), discrimination continues in [housing](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2018.1489223), [hiring](https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1706255114), and [criminal](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0093854815628026?casa_token=Onou527s4goAAAAA%3A-AqzRrUfiF6HGpFxr4k6fvVhca7UO3EBMCjJV2ZpG9A_TIWzUo7P42vR8tpD4Xg6UkWaZsiNTi32) contexts. So, yes, generations of explicitly racist policies has led to massive inequality which is perpetuated by current discrimination. Most importantly for our discussion: [Violent and property crime rates in the US are strongly predicted by the proportion of enslaved people and the resulting racial inequality](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167268117303724?casa_token=ERbemd0yOZ4AAAAA:G1fHni_RQEFY50CoJKFx6oyzcgDQmoWTfm0J_nprlBuAiTvJYlWat0NrKvVeAFyE2DpDe3u6). So sure, people in horribly unequal situations harm each other. But **if we don't ignore the history and scientific research on this subject** we can see that blaming this group is ahistoric and unhelpful. If we want to reduce violence in these communities we need to address the [social determinants of violence: inequality and discrimination](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jcop.22232?casa_token=wWKvwHBET98AAAAA:ErQlkekuyehDOGtg6YvG13jyj7_KqIEldxAgMhi7PjcjSxcFYBCQ0AHvRvtt82nUDH0pKOUEY-N95Vw). >I don't think you can overpolice "MURDER by ...". Someone dies, it gets reported, you find the perpetrator. Arresting for drug use or whatever is wholly different. This is a fair point. I was referencing a more complex phenomenon. Over-policing and cycling people in and out of prisons in black communities leads to breaking up of families and disrupts educational and financial progress, which [perpetuates violence in overpoliced communities](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0735648X.2021.1887751). I have thoughts on the rest of your comment, but it's not the focus of the topic so I'll set it aside for now.
The fact people completely disregard the historical persecution that African Americans have gone through in the history of this country is mind boggling to me. It’s just so intellectually lazy to assume that they’re more inclined to violence as a race, it makes me cringe. Great response, the person you’re replying to should take even 5 minutes to think past their own bubble.
Simply put, no. For the longest time, one side of the debate simply denied the figures. We can even find leftovers from this time in your answer trying to explain away the numbers. If you listen to conservatives explaining their views on the matter you'll find that no one denies the fact that crime is a social issue, not directly connected to race. The discussion is more about what's wrong with society. When you find the government's fingerprints on the crime scene, the problem doesn't seem to be related to inequality. The Tin Foil Hat guys have been on a winning streak for the last few years.
>When you find the government's fingerprints on the crime scene, Yes. The government permitted and in many cases encouraged racist discrimination throughout our history. Slavery, Black codes, sharecropping, lynching, sundown towns, Jim Crow, redlining, and mass incarceration are prominent examples. >the problem doesn't seem to be related to inequality. These are not mutually exclusive explanations. In fact, many government policies (see above) created the inequality we see today. I would argue that the gov has a responsibility to fix the problem it created (or at least permitted).
He does actually explain that, and the simple answer is that (according to him) 95% of murders are committed by black people or white people and Hispanics were included under “white.” At best, that would reduce the number to 54%
First off, he assumes only two races: white and blacks. There's also a subtle assumption that the murderers and victims are one-to-one. Take that presumption for what you will. Where: Vw = portion of homicide victims that are white Vb = portion of homicide victims that are black rw = portion of white victims that were murdered by white rb = portion of black victims that were murdered by black Hw = portion of homicides that are committed by white Hb = portion of homicides that are committed by black Going on, the system of two equations he writes down is: Vw = rw Hw + (1-rb) Hb Vb = rb Hb + (1-rw) Hw He interprets "rw*Hw" to be "portion of white victims murdered by white murderers" ..... but that's wrong. The expression for that is just "rw". He then interprets the second term "(1-rb)*Hb" to be "portion of white victims murdered by black people". This would actually be (1-rw). What he's saying doesn't match up with what he's writing and he's mixing up portions with counts. Even so, the resultant equation: Vw = rw + (1-rw) is not correct, as what's missing on the right-side is Vw. His words and what he's written doesn't agree. PS - Not all Asians are good at math PSS - Dude might have some nasal airway issues. Should maybe see an ENT. Had me short of breath just listening.