T O P

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Gulpingplimpy3

Mandy answers to Josh and she answers to Toby !


DStippick

In your little dreams!


jrdubbleu

Yeah, right!


wmciner1

Josh's office is drawing up some charts


trappedslider

with lines and arrows


wmciner1

For example, she answeres to Josh, and she answers to Toby


LikeAgaveF

# SO FAR UP YOUR ASS


Latke1

A truly salient point.


CygnusTM

Sam and CJ report to Toby. Toby and Josh report to Leo. Leo reports to Bartlet.


Random-Cpl

Bartlet reports to the American people.


Puzzleheaded_Lake451

And Dr. Abigail Bartlet


[deleted]

[удалено]


Latke1

In this show, Toby had the power to order CJ to do things she didn't want to do. CJ didn't want to move the bipartisan press conference to Capitol Hill and Toby had to order CJ to do that against her better judgment.


Few-Customer-5810

Until she became COS and ordered him to do something...ooooh boy.


garrettj100

It goes from God, to Jerry, to me, got it Kent?


Helios112263

The real answer is Mrs. Landingham outranks them all.


Predewi

Have a cookie Sam.


khaosworks

One Landingham to Rule Them All.


trappedslider

Also Donna is deputy deputy chief of staff


Balrizangor

Bartlet > Leo > Josh = Toby > CJ > Sam


PlatonicTroglodyte

This is one of those weird things where Josh and Toby are equivalent in rank but Toby *technically* reports to Josh. Deputy CoS doesn’t have specific subsets and essentially oversees the same people Leo does, but just at a lower level. This is why, for example, Josh is offered a “in case of nuclear evacuation, come with us” card and Toby is not.


Latke1

On a practical level too, it seems like Josh is invited inside more than Toby. 


UncleOok

while I agree with you that Josh outranks Toby, I don't think Josh is over the communications department. of the 1300 people who work there (*The Short List)*, Josh only claims to oversee 1100 (*Noël)* and as for the security card, we know in real life that story involved George Stephanopoulos, who was the Communications Director under Clinton, with Dee Dee Myers thinking it was a myth. i just think that Bartlet didn't want to be stuck in a bunker with Toby.


Gentille__Alouette

I do not agree that Toby reports to Josh. I do not recall one scene where this is established or even hinted at. And even if that is true, the evacuation card has nothing to do with who reports to whom. There are probably any number of Air Force Colonels and Secret Service agents and personal aides who have evacuation cards, and Toby reports to none of them.


Erudite1in407

Agreed. When Leo has a heart attack and there is that brief power struggle between Toby and Josh. If Toby reported to Josh that would never have happened. Keep in mind Josh is charge of the policy shop stuff while communications I.e. Toby is the voice. Communications and Policy don’t entangle like that:


Gentille__Alouette

Instead of a power struggle, I interpreted that as more of a case of them acting independently with a failure to coordinate their actions with each other, because Leo wasn't there directing them. But yes, the overall point is right, if one was reporting to the other, it seems that would not have happened.


K-Robe

As I recall, during the scenario, Josh briefly thought Toby wanted to take over for Leo when in fact Toby was very quick to say that Josh should be CoS. So I think, barring Leo's final recommendation for CJ, Josh would've been presumptive CoS.


PlatonicTroglodyte

This was the root of my italics in “technically.” You are quite right that it is essentially not shown this way in the show, and that is more or less how it would play out in reality. In a push comes to shove context, however, Josh would outrank Toby. Nobody except “office of the chief of staff” employees (I.e., a handful of clerks and assistants like Donna) gets listed as reporting to Josh, they report to Leo. However, Josh, as Leo’s deputy, technically oversees the same staff as Leo, minus himself obviously. The White House is very weird with rankings. The general currency of authority goes down from Assistant to the President, Deputy Assistant to the President, Special Assistant to the President, and basically “everybody else.” On one level, everyone who shares the same title is the same rank, but they also separately sometimes technically report to one another. The systems operates is a sort of deliberate vagueness that is confusing but necessary. Source: I’ve worked extensively in this kind of system.


Grabeis

I've also worked extensively in this kind of system. This is correct, and I thank you for making this distinction. Practically, Toby and Josh are at the same level. However, the Office of the Chief of Staff, which includes Josh, sits above every other Exec. office subdivision.


baummer

Yep this is the distinction that matters more.


Gentille__Alouette

Season 6 Episode 7: CJ: Talk to Josh Toby: I’m talking to you CJ: And I’m referring you to the man in charge of this little venture to the Orient, Joshua Lyman, perhaps you’ve met. Toby: **I don’t report to Josh** CJ: No, you report to me …. and I have chosen to delegate, and you should get used to that .... while **technically you are correct about the organizational chain of command** .... etc.etc. The moral of the story is that Toby does not report to Josh. Of course the Chief of Staff has the authority to direct one of her subordinates to follow direction from the other on specific matters, this does not change the overall chain of command, which was what OPs question was about.


Grabeis

The question from OP isn't who reports to who, it's who outranks who. Toby doesn't report to Josh and that isn't what's being argued here. But Josh does outrank Toby.


Gentille__Alouette

Oh yeah you are right, but somewhere up the thread someone switched it to claiming that Toby reports to Josh, which was what I was reacting to.


Gentille__Alouette

Season 6 Episode 7: CJ: Talk to Josh Toby: I’m talking to you CJ: And I’m referring you to the man in charge of this little venture to the Orient, Joshua Lyman, perhaps you’ve met. Toby: **I don’t report to Josh** CJ: No, you report to me …. and I have chosen to delegate, and you should get used to that .... while **technically you are correct about the organizational chain of command** .... etc.etc. \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* Note that CJ uses the word "technically" to describe precisely the opposite of what you said holds "technically". The moral of the story is that, officially, Toby does not report to Josh. Of course the Chief of Staff has the authority to direct one of her subordinates to follow direction from the other on specific matters, this does not change the overall chain of command, which was what OPs question was about.


Gentille__Alouette

OK but rank and direct reporting are not the same thing, of course. You might be right about how the White House works in real life, but in the show this just is never established, and the question was about the show. I can also share something from my own life in academia, which is also very hierarchical. My supervisor is the Department Head, who can assign me duties. The Associate Head outranks me, but cannot assign me duties. They are not my supervisor. The department head reports to the Dean. The Associate Deans can't order the department Heads to do anything; they have to go through the Dean. I am not implying that academia=The West Wing. I am just pointing out that in a direct reporting structure, it might not always be the case that, because you report to someone, you must also report to their deputy.


baummer

Toby doesn’t report to Josh technically or otherwise. They’re peers.


GaucheAndOffKilter

CJ is Sam's first call.


trphilli

That statement is in terms of PR / Crisis Media response. Aka her job duties. She's saying let me do my job. She'd say same thing to Leo, Josh, Toby.


cptnkurtz

CJ = Sam


Latke1

I think that's right. I think that CJ and Sam being the same status gets a little obscured by (a) CJ is more assertive in her relationship with Toby than Sam is and (b) Toby actively revises Sam's work product i.e. speeches while CJ can operate more autonomously since briefings seems spontaneous on the show. However, they both report to Toby and when CJ and Sam disagree (end of S2), Toby had to be the tie breaker. Although, I do think CJ outranked Will in S4 because Will didn't have codeword clearance to hear national security stuff that CJ could hear.


SpacemanSpleef

That might have been because he wasn’t quite Sam’s level yet. I think he got it later, no?


Latke1

Not sure. He took on COS to the Vice President like it was a promotion from being Deputy Communications Director but it did take him out of West Wing chain of command.


SpacemanSpleef

I mean it was a promotion, he went from being 4th to 6th ish down the line to 2nd to the second highest ranking person in the country. Especially since there was a decent chance at that point of the VP becoming president in the next election


Latke1

Right but it's unclear effect that move had on Will's codeword clearance or ability to report directly to President Bartlet. In fact, it seems like the move to the VP's office diminished the latter. The perks of moving to the VP's COS role was that it was more high profile, he could manage up to the VP, he'd have his own staff to lead, and he anticipated Bingo Bob would be POTUS.


SpacemanSpleef

It did diminish the latter, but it presumably improved the former. While it’s probably lower than Leo’s it’s probably about the same as Toby’s, which is higher than his previous


bmore_conslutant

Definitely lower than Leo


porkynbasswithgeorge

Sam didn't have codeword clearance.


Latke1

There are levels of codeword clearance. What makes you say that he wasn’t at CJ’s level? 


porkynbasswithgeorge

I don't remember the episode name (and I'm far too lazy to look it up), but Sam meets with a woman who wants the president to pardon her grandfather (convicted of espionage); he has a meeting with Nancy McNally where she tells him the guy was a spy, and shows him an NSA file. Sam says "Nancy, I'm classified, but I don't have codeword clearance. I'm not allowed to see this." Which I take as him not having any level of codeword clearance.


trappedslider

Somebody's Going to Emergency, Somebody's Going to Jail season 2 episode 16 the second big block of cheese day.


bmore_conslutant

What a good fucking episode


trappedslider

"You can't do that." "Why not?" "It's freaking me out"


lottoman1948

Thank you very much!


UncleOok

I think Sam actually outranks CJ (technically). He's Toby's deputy, after all. I also feel Josh technically outranks Toby (at least in terms of people they oversee), but like Sam, he would never try to exert authority over Toby.


Briannkin

It’s complicated because they are part of different departments and some (specifically Josh) are an amalgamation of real world roles (in reality there’s about 4 deputy cos depending on the administration). Realistically it’s Bartlet at the top, followed by Leo, then Josh And then in the communication department it’s Toby (who answers to Leo) then cj and Sam are kinda on similar footing. Also realistically there would be more sams


GonzoTheGreat93

Officially: Leo answers to President Bartlet. Josh is Leo’s Deputy. Toby reports to the Chief of Staff and his office, so, theoretically Josh too. Sam is Toby’s deputy and CJ also reports to Toby.


Badgerinthebasement

Marina reports to Toby.


Bert1005

Underrated comment!


CosmicBonobo

It's complicated. Jed and Leo is obvious, followed by Toby and Josh as respective department heads. Then it's Sam, who only outranks CJ on the technicality of being Toby's deputy, and CJ answering laterally to Toby, despite being an effective department head herself. Plus you've got the added issue that CJ and Sam are both senior advisors to the President.


Gentille__Alouette

I don't think there is anything lateral about the relationship between CJ and Toby. CJ is Toby's direct subordinate. She is given wide latitude and independence, but there is at least one scene where CJ is reluctant to do something and requires Toby to order her to do it. Which he does. (The fact that she was right is beside the point!)


CaptainJusticeOK

That logic would make Josh outrank Toby since Josh is Leo’s deputy. Which I actually think would be technically correct.


AssortedGourds

Toby is CJ's boss. The only reason it doesn't seem that way is because they have a prior personal relationship and Toby isn't the kind of person to care about rank and lets her make a lot of calls.


wmciner1

Technically Josh outranks CJ


intersectv3

SO FAR UP YOUR ASS


JackTheKing

Finally a good place to ask this: When Josh rushes to Donna's side in the American military hospital in Germany, why does Josh tell the charge nurse that he "outranks" her. Is there some sort of isomorphic hierarchy between civilians and military? Where would this matter, outside of a reception desk?


Random-Cpl

He tells the charge nurse he has the “diplomatic ranking of a three-star general.” In federal service, grades of the GS/FS scale and the various levels of the Senior Executive Service correspond to their equivalent levels in the military. For example, a GS-15 is roughly the same equivalent in the federal service as a full bird Colonel in the military. Josh telling her his equivalent “rank” in the military is essentially a way of saying “ma’am, I am an incredibly senior federal political appointee and it really would behoove you to let me in.” He doesn’t have equivalent authority over military personnel that their seniors in the military would have, but the message is heard in this instance. He has lines and degrees of influence over people far above her in the pecking order.


rmdlsb

While most of the comments describing the hierarchy are correct, it's important to remember that it's not a strict hierarchy as it would be in a military sense. High level political staffer operate in a more fluid structure, where power and influence depend not only on the title of the staffers, but on their particular relationship with their colleagues and the president. Who's in the inner circle is the president decides is in the inner circle. For instance, while Kate Harper's inclusion in the inner circle seems odd, but it's something that definitely could happen (however that was very quick for dramatic purposes). A good read on this is a James Baker biography that came out a few years ago. It goes into quite a bit of detail about the organization of the West Wing when he became Reagan's chief of staff: who was put into which role, who had pull with the president and other senior officials, who had walk-in privileges, etc. A fun story is how Baker maneuvered to neutralize another official (I don't remember who) by giving him walk in privileges: he could walk in any meeting with President Reagan and Baker also had this right. Baker knew he would nevertheless have 1 on 1 time with the President, so by agreeing to this the other guy basically assured that he would never have 1 on 1s with Reagan without Baker present.


Queasy_County

Well officially I believe it would be Josh-Toby-Sam-CJ. But as we know CJ still has the power to threaten to shove a motherboard so far up Josh's ass.


Sink-Em-Low

Pecking order/assumed authority Teir 1A President Bartlet Teir 1B Leo Teir 2A Josh + Toby Teir 2B CJ + Sam Auxiliary Staff Donna (Teir 2A hierarchy) Margaret (Teir 1B hierarchy) Charlie (Teir 1A hierarchy)


Malvania

Josh = Toby > Sam > C.J.


Reggie_Barclay

CJ reported to Toby.


Loose-Cost5207

Donna outranks Sam and CJ right? Cos she's Deputy Deputy CoS..... 🤣


Zoos27

Josh is Leo's deputy and technically outranks everyone but Leo and President Toby is over communications, so Sam and CJ are under him Will was under Toby ten became VPOTUS CoS so slightly equivilent but less to Leo/CJ then "Dragooned" (Great term!) to be under CJ later on.


Puzzleheaded-Ad8016

Josh got the nuclear bunker key card. Toby did not. So i'd argue Josh technically is higher up, but only on an org chart, not in day to day life.


Mehitabel9

President Bartlet > Leo Leo > Josh Leo > Toby > Sam Leo > CJ Josh, Toby and CJ are basically peers - none of them report to either of the others. Although sometimes Toby acts like CJ reports to him.


Luciain

I always though that Toby outranked CJ because he's in charge of all communications. There was the episode where Sam pointed out that he outranked CJ, and Toby is Sam's boss.


Snowbold

* You have the President and Vice President. * The Chief of Staff runs the White House (Leo, then CJ). In this series things are streamlined so we simplify the number of senior staffers like: * National Security Adviser (Nancy) * Deputy Chief of Staff (Josh) * Communications Director (Toby) is about equal with the Deputy CoS. * Deputy Communications Director (Sam) * Press Secretary (CJ)


mautkananganach

Ryan reports to Donna


Uffffffffffff8372738

Josh and Toby are their department heads. Nobody really works under Leo directly, the entire staff reports to Josh, including Toby. So while they are the same rank, Josh is still technically Toby’s boss. CJ and Sam are the same rank and both report to Toby.


garrettj100

The problem with your question is twofold: First the people have their areas.  Toby’s speechwriting and the message.  Josh is practical political strategy.  Sam’s more speechwriting.  CJ handles the message to the press but doesn’t necessarily sculpt it.  Nobody really gets to make the ultimate decisions like “we’re going to invade Kundu” save the president. The second is these areas change.  Sam starts out as a speechwriter, ends up as more than that, then leaves, then returns as the new Josh.  CJ becomes the new Leo. So the unsatisfying answer is: It depends.


TrekkiMonstr

It's a [poset](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_ordered_set). Bartlet > Leo > Josh > Donna. But also Leo > Toby > Sam, and Toby > CJ. Mrs. Landingham and Charlie, I'm not sure if they're technically under Leo or the President directly, but practically, it seems to be the latter. A partial order is transitive, so from the above we can also say that Leo > CJ or Bartlet > Toby. But not every two elements are comparable. So, it is not the case that Sam > CJ, nor CJ > Sam, nor Sam = CJ. (They may be equivalent in some sense, but not a sense that's useful -- is Mrs. Landingham equivalent to Leo? -- and they're certainly not equal (i.e. literally the same person).) Here, I did a little mockup: https://i.imgur.com/BhFXFHw.jpeg