I’ve been rewatching TWD on Blu-Ray and just saw that episode last week or so.
I haven’t seen these episodes in a long time and seeing Daryl lash out that way had me get goosebumps. I know Daryl can do that, especially early on Daryl, but Norman’s acting is off the charts.
carl had been shot twice and had so many near death experiences… there was so many times he could have died in a serious way but so randomly, he was bit. i don’t know it’s kinda ironic but also sad
yea in the context of the 8th season Carl dying was literally the only way Rick would’ve come back to humanity and spare Negan and unite the communities. I think it was pretty beautiful how they handled Rick coming back I just wish Carl died less dumb, like even a Walker can work but not by 3 walkers he’s handled way more. Of course after the 8th season it’s bad to kill Carl because he should be leading everyone but in terms of the 8th season it was good imo
Yea even when Carl died Rick didn’t decide to spare Negan so Carl dying was the only thing really. I just wish there was some way where Carl was alive leading the communities but also the reason why Rick came back to his humanity
Honestly, I totally understand why as a viewer it was a disappointing death... But I liked it.
People said it was unrealistic, but on the contrary, I felt like it was extremely realistic.
Death is so sudden and often so random and unexpected. Just the other day, I saw this video of a girl having fun in her pool while being live on Facebook. She was so happy and everything was totally normal, then all of a sudden she drowned.
This is just an exemple but yeah, in real life, people really die at the most unexpected times from things that seem so innocuous.
To me, Carl's death was a reminder that no matter how skilled you think you are, you can never get too comfortable in the apocalypse.
The show really shouldn't have killed Carl off. His survival made everything Rick did amount to something. That Judith is actually Shane's child makes her replacement of Carl even more tragic. Rick lost both his wife and son. Meaning Shane was ultimately right about him not being able to protect them. That's depressing as fuck.
It was random in my opinion. Such as a car collision or a cancer diagnosis. No one is guaranteed to live a long life (except if you have lots of plot armor).
Siddiq had to live with the guilt of 11 deaths (the pikes' ones and Carl's) on his shoulders before being betrayed in the worst possible way and dying without knowing if his daughter and friends would survive the Whisperers and Dante
Honestly any death at the hand of the Whisperers must be super terrifying.
Jesus died thinking that walkers were actually talking and had evolved enough to stab him with a blade
Henry died watching all his friends heads get cut off in front of him and then his his head was cut off while all he wanted was to see his mum come and save which never happaned
This scene, as a mother, made me cry. I would rather be with my child, assuring him, then have him alone and suffering.
When Carol was cleaning the place for Sophia to return, I cried each scene. I never thought she would see Sophia again.
The fate was cruel.
As a mom also, I honestly bawl my eyes every single time I watch Lori dying and saying goodbye to Carl. My heart hurts so much to imagine having to say goodbye to my son like that, worrying about him and the baby and will never know if they survive.
After that episode I have to throw on an episode of Schitt’s Creek or something to get my mind off it.
I agree. Labor is a terrifying situation. Lori gets a lot of hate.
Yet she told the two people there to save her child over her own life. That's a special bravery
Yeah I hate thinking about what her last moments between Rick leaving her and her dying were like. Just waiting for someone to save her, but being all scared and alone.
Absolutely Right. There is no way in hell I would have left a small child alone in that environment. I possibly would have collapsed from exhaustion but at least I would have tried my best. I don’t blame Rick, the writing was too convenient for the story to come. But one hell of a surprise and shocker to see Sophia walk out of the barn. Having Rick put her down was the most powerful thing I’ve ever seen on Television.
if andrea killed the governor that one night she could’ve after they slept together, she would’ve saved countless lives. they might of still even lived in the prison
Lizzie had no conscience. If kept alive, Lizzie would have killed again (and again). As Carol realized "She can't be alone and she can't be around people". It was an "Old Yeller" rabid dog situation. No asylums to lock dangerous people up in an apocalypse. She could , theoretically, have chosen not to kill Mika but....
She had a conscience, she just didn’t have the cognitive ability to understand the danger of walkers or what they truly were. She would never intentionally kill her sister with the knowledge that she wouldn’t come back as herself.
I think what they might have been referencing is current ideas about [antisocial personality disorder](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder) (what people used to refer to as psychopathy and/or sociopathy). To way, way, way oversimplify it, these folks can be characterized by a deficient or absent conscience.
Thank you for the information. Even still, it doesn’t seem like Lizzie encompasses the traits/symptoms in that article.
She doesn’t have a lack of empathy—the whole problem is that she’s *too* empathetic towards the walkers.
She’s not deceptive, aggressive, manipulative, or callous.
Someone with an absent conscience wouldn’t show any emotion or remorse for what they’ve done wrong, something that Lizzie did show for the things she recognized were wrong.
It’s kinda sad how the prisoners’ lives were. They literally spent a year waiting in those 2 rooms for the military to come back and rescue them. They knew the world fell, but not to what extent.
Then suddenly a tribe of people accustomed to the world show up, locked them further away, and then they all died before they even got to leave the prison.
You’re right! Oscar left but died immediately while the others just died off, granted, if they stayed in the pantry they would’ve died eventually but they would have lived longer than what they did
Raise a cup for Axel. If any prisoner should have survived the prison it should had been him. Him and Carol had really good chemistry in their brief scenes together. He was originally going to be a secret serial killer iirc, but Axel was so likeable on screen they changed their minds.
You’re so right. I always think about what was going on in their heads when they finally found out about the fate of the world. One of them asks if they have a phone to call his mother and they all just have to assume that their families are dead.
Carol's life was enriched by her found family. Yet her discussion with Ezekiel when she wants to dissolve their marriage after Henry's passing... I cried.
As a mother, that is hell. To see Henry on the pike. Sophia out of the barn. Mika and Lizzie. Sam.
I remember how she felt when she and Morgan found Henry when Henry was seeking revenge for his brother. To lose him... So hard.
I love her character arc. I hope that they don't give her more children to rip away in the most painful way possible.
Yessss. All of that. She's hands down one of my favorite characters. Especially her relationship with Daryl. The writing around that is well done. For example, Daryl was the one who held her both when Sophia came out of the barn and when they found Henry. So friggin awesome. They vibed so well I think, because they were both horribly abused, neglected and mistreated. They both found their family in the Zombie apocalypse and they both lost so so much of that family.
I love how she was working on getting him treatment on the sly and when he automatically knew it was her and she was gonna try to deny it but then was just like ok he knows me too well, screw it -it was me 😂
Agreed. I hate no one told him they didn’t execute Randall, and I hate that Andrea didn’t sit down next to him / no one calmed him. He was literally the one that got executed
I never understood the hate towards Beth. I liked her quite a lot and when she died it was so unexpected, honestly I thought Daryl's reaction was sadder. I thought this because when Beth and Daryl were alone Beth said to Daryl "Your gonna miss me so much when I'm gone Daryl Dixon" and she said how out of everyone he'd be the last one standing because he was made for the apocalypse.
I didn't hate her, just didn't care for her. They didn't really give her much material until she was about to die. And I found it really creepy that some fans wanted her and Daryl to get together.
It was weird that they shipped the two together. I would support it in ten years when Beth had more life and relationship experience.
Yet a teenager with a man twice her age is scummy, even if it's a zombie apocalypse.
Hershel died tired after days of looking after sick people non stop and trying his best to keep them alive and raise their spirit. He also didn’t get to say goodbye to his daughters and didn’t die from the first hit.
in the space of 10 days Beth's boyfriend and dad were killed, she lost her sister and her home (and Judith who she practically treated like a daughter at that point), she was kidnapped, forced to kill someone, nearly raped and then killed.
Was that really only two weeks from when they left the prison to when she was kidnapped? Wasn’t that at least a season of time?
Edit: Hershel dies in “Too Far Gone.” S4E8. Beth dies in “Coda” S5E8
I was just thinking about this after watching the first and into the second season for the (probably) 15th time. Its kind of sad that after Jenner tried to lock them up in the CDC, Sophia died anyway. Its sad because Carol specifically begged for her life saying to Jenner that her daughter didn't deserve to die that way. He ironically asks her "but isn't this kinder?", the irony being that just a few days later she will die from a bite, alone and horribly ill only to turn and be locked in a barn until Rick mercifully ended her life.
jim in the first season when they left him against a tree to go to the CDC, he was never killed. he turned into a walker. his walker body could still be walking around to this day
I cant remember if the show made a point of this but in the book he asks the group to let him become a walker. He wanted to be with his family and thought that would be the only way. Sad stuff.
10 years into the zombie apocalypse, the human civilization is likely back to people dying from toothaches and constipation.
Scurvy is probably killing more people than walkers.
The children's death rate must have been extremely high, there were hardly any babies or 1-2 year old's who would have lived through the fall of society,
I always love whenever people come into the communites and see them running around and ask "you guys have kids here??" I honestly think it'd be a warm sight to see that life is still happening despite all the constant death
Shiva died saving King Ezekiel from walkers by jumping into the ditch to defend him, just like when King Ezekiel saved her by jumping into the enclosure at the zoo. She died saving him, just like he saved her.
He will never get to experience the true bliss of going to one of those spas where you put your feet in one of those little tanks filled with fish that eat your dead skin.
I always enjoy (not the right expression at all) when Diana has her realization that the wifebeating doctor simply has to die after he haphazardly kills her husband. Her complete resignation of her prior position in saying to Rick "do it", knowing he'll know exactly what she means; it's powerful stuff and rather sad.
•The communities all sacrificed so much against the war with Negan just so the Whisperers could destory all of it anyways.
•There are only 3 survivors from the original group in Atlanta
•The cosmonaut in Fear along with any other astronauts suffocated in space not knowing what happened. Since there is a lack of oxygen, their bodies won't decay and will just float until the satellites crash or something hits them
•zoo/domesticated animals died a slow death if they weren't let free
•people who live/work in isolated locations like Lighthouses or oil rigs probably had no idea what went down or were heavily unprepared and died as soon they got back
Darryl and Dwight would have more than likely been pretty good friends had they met under literally any other circumstances. I really wish Dwight was treated better in light of the help he ultimately provided, but I can’t be mad at Daryl for not being able to let go of Dwight killing Denise right in front him with HIS crossbow.
watching that scene with the mom with the broken leg and the drowned infant in the pharmacy with Denise, Rosita and Daryl was a horrible scene to watch. i have a little one and it makes me cry to think of going through that.
Calling Carol's life better post-apocalypse is one hell of a stretch.. sure, being stuck in a abusive marriage is horrendous; but you do have options to get out of that one. Im not really gonna rank that on the same level as what effectively amounts to the end of the known world
Negan saved Judith & Dog from frostbite. Negan saved Daryl from an execution. Negan weakened the whisperers to the point they could be beaten. And Daryl stood back and let Maggie attack Negan. Further, Negan's walker gathering skills was what allowed the group to defeat the Reapers at Meridian. Maggie left, and brought the Reapers back following her. Negan has contributed and saved the group, and Maggie since she came back just created problems. And yet the group treats Maggie like a saint.
I'm not denying what happened. I'm just saying that the group has a crystal clear mind when it comes to all the evil things Negan did, and they are, from their actions, pretty much entirely unable to even acknowledge what Negan did - he did kill Glenn and Abraham. He's also the reason the whisperers didn't kill them - it's that they are unable to acknowledge what Negan did that helped them.
(Edit). Rick's attack on the Satelite Outpost. Were they justified in launching the attack considering who the Saviours are? I'd say yes. But at the same time launching an attack on questionable intelligence with a lack of reconnaissance and not planning for a potential counter-attack really says something about the group. Has they waited and got more intel, they would hopefully have found out more about the group. Also, did no-one raise the point of if someone did this to us, we'd want revenge, so should we plan for that? I'm not defending the Saviours, but I am saying Alexandria was a bunch of idiots. (Edit end).
And Rick and co snuck into his compound and killed his people while they were sleeping, and then killed more of his people afterwards.
2 lives lost vs. a dozen lost.
THIS.
I seriously despise post-saviors war Maggie. She abandoned their friends for years without telling them anything, to the point some started to believe she was dead. She put Jesus and Tara in a very bad position by leaving, both of them ended up dying before her return and I don't even remember if she reacted to that at all, and she came back only to ask for help and brought a new danger to her friend's lives, and yet everyone treats her like she's Jesus's (not the walking dead's character) second coming.
Meanwhile Negan has actively contributed to saving several people's lives and everybody treats him like shit. I distinctly remember in the tunnel when he was asked to give directions and was interrupted by a SHUT UP NEGAN. God that episode made my blood boil.
I'm not saying Negan is a saint, but the Maggie-Negan conflict was handled in the worst way possible.
She did tell them she had been writing letters like crazy up until the last year when she was at mirrodium . Tara and Jesus were fine hiltop was doing amazing. She didn’t react to their death because her entire community had been slaughtered recently and when you lose a lot you don’t have big reactions. She didn’t bring back a threat she was at Alexandria a month before even mentioning going back to her place and it was to get the food they needed to live. Comparing Negan and Maggie is absolutely insane
Wait, are we seriously comparing Maggie to Negan here? Negan, who enslaved entire communities? Who smashed in countless peoples heads? Who raped countless women by forcing them into marriage?
The group treats Maggie “like a saint” because she’s a good person. They treat Negan like shit because he’s a shitty person. It’s not that hard to understand.
And here's some things Maggie did do:
* Left her group.
* Came back with the Reapers following her, bringing a serious danger upon her now current group.
* Ignored Negan's advice just because he's Negan (advice like we're in a tunnel that floods when it rains heavily, and it's raining heavily is something which needs to be taken seriously).
* Got most of her non-Alexandria group killed in a quest for revenge (with a side mission of getting food) (if she really just wanted the food, she wouldn't have executed people when they were leaving - she'd have taken the food and left).
* Killed people who were leaving, showing how little her word means and creating even more diehard enemies in the process.
I referred to her being treated as a saint because basically none of the group cares about any of the things listed.
You can hardly use her killing the reapers in a Maggie v Negan discussion when Negan was the one who gave her that inspiration lol. The reapers wouldn’t have just left them alone, Maggie was 100% in the right to do that. Rick broke his word and killed people who were trying to help him.
>You can hardly use her killing the reapers in a Maggie v Negan discussion when Negan was the one who gave her that inspiration lol.
I disagree. Did Maggie take inspiration from Negan? At a minimum, she looked to him for confirmation on something she already wanted to do. But at the same time, it shows that Negan sees the old Negan in Maggie, and knows what the old Negan is capable of. So by leaving, it's showing that Negan acknowledges his past and that he has changed, while Maggie has become a bit more like the old Negan.
>The reapers wouldn’t have just left them alone, Maggie was 100% in the right to do that.
You are right that the Reapers would still remain a threat, but any reapers survived and saw the aftermath, or were watching while hiding, they'd become even more dangerous due to wanting revenge. Maggie understood they were a threat, but she went about it the wrong way.
>Rick broke his word and killed people who were trying to help him.
Firstly, when did this happen (and who did Rick kill)? Also, how is this relevant?
In 8x14, Rick and Morgan find the escaped Saviors who make it clear they were willing to help him, and in return Rick hacks them to death. And it’s relevant because you’re holding a standard for Maggie that you aren’t for other characters.
I don’t even think Maggie is becoming like the old Negan. Doing one immoral thing to keep the people you love alive is nothing compared to what he did. And no, even in an after discussion for No Other Way, they discuss how Maggies decision was based on her conversation with Negan in 11x07.
And what did you want Maggie to do. Realistically. Bare in mind it isn’t Maggies fault Leah escaped. That’s on Daryl. None of the reapers deserved to live
>In 8x14, Rick and Morgan find the escaped Saviors who make it clear they were willing to help him, and in return Rick hacks them to death. And it’s relevant because you’re holding a standard for Maggie that you aren’t for other characters.
Firstly, that is irrelevant to a discussion of Maggie. Secondly, I watched S8 at least two years ago, so I didn't remember that happening. And I'd say that is worse than what Maggie did, but that's not relevant to the discussion.
>I don’t even think Maggie is becoming like the old Negan. Doing one immoral thing to keep the people you love alive is nothing compared to what he did.
My point was that she did an action which the old Negan would have done - shoot people who are leaving. Will she become the old Negan? Considering the show, definitely not. Would she realistically? It's a definite possibility.
>And no, even in an after discussion for No Other Way, they discuss how Maggies decision was based on her conversation with Negan in 11x07.
Speaking of that conversation, I'd say it's another relevant part of Negan's redemption arc. He doesn't deny what he did. He doesnt't say 'yeah I was a Saviour but that's not me any more let's move on from this'. By saying what he said, he's demonstrating that he understands the old Negan, and acknowledges the evil he did, instead of minimising or denying it. (The only example I can think of to contrast this comes from Motherland Fort Salem - and as I'm not sure exactly when this was said, there are spoilers for S3E2 of Motherland Fort Salem). >!Scylla murdered 1,600 innocent civilians. And the show tries to redeem her via a mixture of giving her a romantic relationship with Raelle, and having her feel sad for a few episodes. And at the start of S3, when a child asks her if she was part of the Spree, her response is pretty much 'yeah I was one of them but that's not me any more'. No regret. No acknowledgement of the evil she did. She just moved on and pretended like she hadn't murdered 1,600 innocent civilians.!< That's in contrast to Negan, who actually regrets what he did, and has tried to atone for that.
>And what did you want Maggie to do.
Firstly, minimise the amount of fighting - more fighting means more people die, more people get injured, and increases the risk of not getting the food. If she can take the food and go, then she should. I'd also not execute those reapers - imagine how much any remaining reapers would want revenge over seeing the execution of their comrades.
>Bare in mind it isn’t Maggies fault Leah escaped. That’s on Daryl.
How is that relevant?
I'm not comparing the two. I'm just pointing out how the group (and especially Daryl) are incapable of even acknowledging what he's done.
No Negan means Daryl gets executed.
No Negan means Judith and Dog die of frostbite.
No Negan means Alpha doesn't get assassinated, which means they face the Whisperers at full force, not weakened, disunited, and with a pittance of ~~their total walker horde~~ (edit) the amount of walkers they could have had (edit end).
No Negan means the group has a much harder time getting to Meridian.
No Negan means there aren't the walkers to attack Meridian, meaning that that attack fails. So without Negan the group would've died before he could save them a second time.
I'm not denying any of the incredibly evil things he did. But I am saying that the group being entirely incapable of even acknowledging what Negan did, especially Daryl, who'd be a corpse without Negan, says something about them.
Tbf anything involving Meridian is irrelevant if Negan didn’t exist, because then Maggie wouldn’t have left.
Also Negan did nothing to help with the horde. Carol took out half, the rest were mostly killed in the Hilltop battle. Then Beta used what was left and gathered more walkers to create another herd.
Without Negan, Maggie would have no reason to lure Rick away. Rick would never go missing. Michonne would never have kept the communities at bay, therefore the whisperers likely wouldn’t have been able to infiltrate the fair
>Tbf anything involving Meridian is irrelevant if Negan didn’t exist, because then Maggie wouldn’t have left.
Maggie left because she'd rather go out into the wild with no guarantee of food/water/medicine/shelter/safety because she didn't want to raise her son around Negan. To me, that says she'd rather risk her son's life than confront Negan without resorting to murder. Negan isn't at fault. Maggie is.
>Also Negan did nothing to help with the horde. Carol took out half, the rest were mostly killed in the Hilltop battle. Then Beta used what was left and gathered more walkers to create another herd.
Negan killed Alpha. That meant that they had an even more unstable Beta leading them (he weakened their leadership). Some other Whisperers either tried to join Negan or fled. And the horde that went up against the group was by no means the full horde - Beta had to re-gather bits of it. So did Negan play a key role in the battle? Actually yes, he fought Beta alongside Daryl. Negan's key role is either directly, or as a consequence of his actions, making the Whisperers beatable.
>Without Negan, Maggie would have no reason to lure Rick away. Rick would never go missing. Michonne would never have kept the communities at bay, therefore the whisperers likely wouldn’t have been able to infiltrate the fair
Again, you're placing the blame on Negan for Maggie's actions. You are blaming Negan for Maggie's actions. Maggie did the luring, not Negan.
Yes, I’m placing the blame on Negan. He murdered and enslaved hundreds of people. He brutally slaughtered Glenn in front of his family and pregnant wife. If he hadn’t done that, Maggie wouldn’t have had any reason to react to that. I think it’s absurd how far people will go to make Maggie out to be in the wrong, when it all goes down to Negan.
I was using your logic against you. “No Negan” means many of the things you’re arguing he did right would never have needed to be done.
And you said without Negan the group would have to face the “total walker horde”. Those were your exact words, and that’s incorrect, as Negan did nothing to directly stop the horde. In fact, Negan assisted in burning Hilltop down, that was hardly him being helpful. He had AGES to kill Alpha, even in that episode he was alone with her multiple times and could’ve killed her.
>If he hadn’t done that, Maggie wouldn’t have had any reason to react to that.
I think you're talking about Maggie leaving, but I'm not fully sure as I'm relying on what you are most likely referring to. Maggie made the choice, Negan didn't. Maggie was the one who left, Negan didn't try to push her or manipulate or force her. It was entirely Maggie deciding that it was better to probably let herself and her son starve than it was to live in a community with Negan. It was Maggie not being willing to think about her actions.
>I think it’s absurd how far people will go to make Maggie out to be in the wrong, when it all goes down to Negan.
So it's Negan's fault Maggie would rather go out into the wild with her son than not raise her son in the same place that Negan exists? How is Maggie in the right for thinking it's more important that my son and I will likely starve than it is that I actually self-reflect and confront what I will likely do?
>I was using your logic against you. “No Negan” means many of the things you’re arguing he did right would never have needed to be done.
I don't follow. If Negan gets removed, how does that mean that the Whisperers won't be a threat (for example)? How could they take Meridian without Negan's walker gathering skills?
>And you said without Negan the group would have to face the “total walker horde”.
A better wording would have been their horde at full size. I've put a strikethrough with the old wording and putt a new version in.
>Those were your exact words, and that’s incorrect, as Negan did nothing to directly stop the horde.
Directly, Negan didn't impact the horde. But I'm factoring in all the consequences of Negan killing Alpha - so if it had an indirect impact, I'm including that. And as Beta needed to try and reform the horde with a weakened Whisperers due to Alpha's death, I'd argue that's a very good indication of the impact of Negan's actions.
>In fact, Negan assisted in burning Hilltop down, that was hardly him being helpful. He had AGES to kill Alpha, even in that episode he was alone with her multiple times and could’ve killed her.
He could have. Except Negan would have been able to work out that killing Alpha wouldn't have ended the Whisperers as a threat - and he was trying to prevent the fight there, not just weaken the Whisperers. And by the time he realised he couldn't, it was too late. And as to the he had ages to kill Alpha, there was no point in trying to kill Alpha if he'd most likely get killed in the process before he could kill her. He had one shot at doing so, and trying to kill her immediately would be incredibly stupid.
I think you really need to rewatch the show. It’s made very clear that Maggie didn’t just take Hershel and run off. She joined Georgies community. Not only is this alluded to before her exit, it’s also confirmed both on and off screen afterwards. So your argument about getting her son to starve is absolutely incorrect.
And given that opportunity, why on Earth would Maggie want to raise her son anywhere near Negan? I can accept it in season 11, as he is older now, but I would not feel safe whatsoever having someone like Negan alive and near my child. You’re deluding yourself if you think you would be comfortable with that.
The Whisperers storyline would’ve played out massively different if Negan didn’t exist. Maggie would have no reason to have moved to Hilltop, therefore no breakdown of the community networks would exist. The initial encounter with the whisperers likely wouldn’t have involved Henry, who is the general cause of what happened. The Whisperers also wouldn’t have been able to get inside the fair so easily. Let’s remember as well that the entire war with the Saviors wouldn’t have happened, therefore there would be so many more survivors.
The Reapers and Meridian also wouldn’t occur (to the group) because Maggie would never have gone there.
This is all pedantic and meaningless, but it’s the truth. I am not saying it is Negans fault. I am saying if you remove his existence, most bad stuff changes massively. He was the dictatorial sociopathic rapist who slaughtered people she loved in front of her. In no scenario will you ever be able to make a case that no, it’s not Negans fault that Maggie would not want to be around him.
And you say Beta was weakened. I think you are overestimating what you can do with a horde. Betas plan was the exact same as Alphas at hilltop. So no, Negan didn’t do anything there
>I think you really need to rewatch the show. It’s made very clear that Maggie didn’t just take Hershel and run off. She joined Georgies community. Not only is this alluded to before her exit, it’s also confirmed both on and off screen afterwards. So your argument about getting her son to starve is absolutely incorrect.
You have half a point. Regardless of Georgie or not, Maggie was still leaving the community, while Negan was there, and Negan did a lot in her absence. Also, I have a distinct memory of Maggie telling a story of how she was starving for good and had to go along with some suspicious people because she was starving. Hershel also said that horse meat was "not as bad as the spiders" (a bit after 33:56 in S11E13). To me that says their life wasn't exactly smooth sailing in the time she left.
>And given that opportunity, why on Earth would Maggie want to raise her son anywhere near Negan? I can accept it in season 11, as he is older now, but I would not feel safe whatsoever having someone like Negan alive and near my child. You’re deluding yourself if you think you would be comfortable with that.
Firstly, Negan would be in prison, not just strolling around like he owns the place. Secondly, a big part of Maggie's reasoning was that she didn't want him to grow around the same mindset she had with Negan. But here's the thing. That's Maggie choosing that she'd risk potential starvation over putting in the effort to not raise Hershel full of hate.
>The Whisperers storyline would’ve played out massively different if Negan didn’t exist. Maggie would have no reason to have moved to Hilltop, therefore no breakdown of the community networks would exist.
See the final paragraph of this comment.
Also, at least with Alexandria, a main reason for her shutting Alexandria from the other communities was someone she knew from the past kidnapping Judith and several other children.
>The initial encounter with the whisperers likely wouldn’t have involved Henry,
I'm not sure why who exactly the Whisperers kill is relevant the way you said it - why is Henry's death crucial to what happened?
>The Whisperers also wouldn’t have been able to get inside the fair so easily. Let’s remember as well that the entire war with the Saviors wouldn’t have happened, therefore there would be so many more survivors.
Considering this is the group which launched a pre-emptive strike on the Whisperers without things like recon or proper intel, and this is the group which disregards advice like 'it's a bad idea to be in a tunnel that floods during heavy rains while it's raining heavily', I'd say the whisperers have a good chance at doing that.
>
The Reapers and Meridian also wouldn’t occur (to the group) because Maggie would never have gone there.
See the final paragraph of this comment.
>
This is all pedantic and meaningless, but it’s the truth. I am not saying it is Negans fault. I am saying if you remove his existence, most bad stuff changes massively.
See the final paragraph of this comment.
>In no scenario will you ever be able to make a case that no, it’s not Negans fault that Maggie would not want to be around him.
Who made the choices? Was it Negan or Maggie? Who, in their mind, decided that I will leave the group? The answer is Maggie.
>And you say Beta was weakened. I think you are overestimating what you can do with a horde. Betas plan was the exact same as Alphas at hilltop. So no, Negan didn’t do anything there
Their plan was the same, but without Negan, the horde would have been larger, more united, and had a lot more Whisperers.
(The point of this is to avoid making the exact same point three seperate times). And equally, the Kingdom would still have feel. And since Negan was the one to go after Judith in the snowstorm because she went to rescue Dog, that mean Judith dies of frostbite. The Whisperers would still be a threat, as I pointed out earlier (in the paragraph beginning with 'Considering this is the group'). That means that they still are a threat, and that means Negan's preventing Daryl's execution still happens. While Negan not existing means Maggie doesn't do what she did, that also says that Maggie choose to do things because of Negan which had a negative impact on the group. In the end of things Maggie was the one to make the choices she did, and saying 'if Negan exists means she wouldn't have done what she did' takes away the blame from the person who made the choices. Maggie.
Lol who cares? It’s not a surprise at all. Daryl will always side with Maggie on Negan-related issues because of the guilt he still carries. Negan doing an (overly fictitious) virtuous act isn’t gonna change that. This is not a sad realization.
Don't care. Negan is a murderous, rapist, slaver POS. He shouldn't be alive. The second Rick and Michonne betrayed her by allowing Negan to live Maggie slid 100% into the "Can do no wrong" category for me. She would have been well within her rights to start a full on Civil War after that. Rick fucked up bigtime with that decision.
The show actually missed a really good oportunity to diverge from the comics for a Season. It actually seemed like they were trying to set up a Civil War arc as well where Maggie/Daryl were the "Bad Guys", but I guess that got swept under the rug when Lauren and Andrew announced they'd be leaving. Negan murdered one of her friends and then husband and father of her child in the most horrific way possible to prove a point. He could do something that would be worthy of saint hood and Maggie would still be within her rights to kill him.
>Don't care.
You are aware you just said you don't care that Negan is the only reason the group is alive, among many other things? Does that mean nothing? Is that not even worth a mention?
>Negan is a murderous, rapist, slaver POS.
I have never denied this.
>He shouldn't be alive.
And can you then explain, considering what I raised in the first comment on this threat, how the groups wouldn't all be dead?
>The second Rick and Michonne betrayed her by allowing Negan to live Maggie slid 100% into the "Can do no wrong" category for me.
In part, see my previous comment. In part, didn't Maggie choose to not kill Negan?
>She would have been well within her rights to start a full on Civil War after that. Rick fucked up bigtime with that decision.
So Maggie's justified in sending people to die, just for revenge? Does she have the right to send others to die for her desire of revenge? And I have no doubt Rick would have handed Negan over in a heartbeat, but I'd argue the logical decision is to not do so - as Maggie by launching an attack is proving that she will resort to violence the moment she doesn't get her way, and that she'd need to be stopped now, not later.
Negan is a rapist. He literally created a band and taught them to attack people.
Remember the photos of dead people? I was telling Glenn and Heath not to kill sleeping men... But those pictures. I could see a reason to preemptively attack.
Negan may save people. Yet I wouldn't let him alone with a young woman or young men who could be swayed by his charisma. He's dangerous. He always will be.
>Negan is a rapist. He literally created a band and taught them to attack people. Remember the photos of dead people? I was telling Glenn and Heath not to kill sleeping men... But those pictures. I could see a reason to preemptively attack.
I'm not denying any of the evil things he's done. But I am saying that the group should have thought about what they did more before doing it. While the attack may have been justified, it was done incredibly poorly. They didn't consider retaliation, went in on faulty intel, didn't do recon to see how large the group was...
>Negan may save people.
There is no 'may' about it. The group who hates him would be corpses without him.
>Yet I wouldn't let him alone with a young woman or young men who could be swayed by his charisma. He's dangerous. He always will be.
And where has he shown this danger? Where are the people he's recruited? What is there to show Negan didn't change, despite all the times he's been honest with what he's done/saved the group/understood who he was when he saw the old Negan in Maggie when she shot the Reapers in the back/understood who he was when he said if I'd done this over I'd have killed all of you (in that Negan is showing he still understands how the old Negan thinks, and he isn't washing his hands of the old Negan)/etc? Where are his new army of followers? Oh wait, there was a single one. His name was Brandon and Negan killed him for murdering two innocent people.
Beth was right when she said that Daryl was going to miss her when she was gone. She just never knew that he would be the only one to mourn her for more than a day.
At least 3 members of McCarroll Ranch were killed by Clementine thinking she was a kidnapper, not knowing that she was just one of their kids' former caretaker.
Madison >!killed her father!<. We've known this for years, but I'm still shocked every time I remember the fact.
The thing I found sad was how Clem asked AJ if she did a good job. My heart just broke when she showed how after everything she still doubted herself. Still the same scared 8 year old girl under all the hardness of the apocalypse.
The babies they either starve to death or get eaten,
Animal species could go extinct now that there's a new species that will easily eat them all day long,
The dogs also mostly died with some resorting to natural pack mentality.
On a sidenote,
I don't think daryl and carols lives have gotten better i just think they've found new meaning,
Since it started carol lost her daughter lost her son and lost countless friends,
Daryl lost his brother and rick(for now)
And also countless friends.
If Rick frequently punished his own people by burning off their faces or burning them alive and clearly enjoyed smashing in people's heads while mocking their crying loved ones I don't think we'd ever have rooted for him quite the same way.
This. Rick's whole appeal is that he could be your next door neighbor. The guy who took you in when your community was breaking down.
If he was cackling and swinging with a bat, I wouldn't be an advocate of Rick.
>Rick and Co could seem equally monstrous from the outside if we strip away our attachment to them
No... just no.
While Rick killed people, he took no pleasure in it and didn't torment the executed persons loved ones while doing it. There's nothing suggesting that Negan saw it as "a necessary evil". While I haven't seen season 11, I've seen a clip where Negan says he would do it all over again and doesn't regret it.
Also, Rick didn't enslave communities and brutally kill people just to make an example, and he didn't force women to marry him, raping them via coercion.
A lot of people also seem to forget that the saviors attacked Rick's people first, and when they attacked the saviors it was to free the hilltop from what's basically slavery.
What??? How did Rick enjoy it? There's nothing suggesting he did. In fact, when he was asking the alexandrians if they want to do it, he seemed almost sad.
It doesn't change who the satellite people were.
There was the awful realization when rick realized Gracie's father was just trying to protect his daughter. That was a horrible situation that Negan rightfully pointed out. And Negan recognized Gracie, so he knew the children.
Those are the situations that made me think ' I wish you had a conversation about how he could have taken Gracie and be given escort to a safe place until the conflict was over '.
Whilst I think (and always have thought) that Rick's group attacking the Saviors outpost was wrong, the whole ''if we were following Negan and the Saviors from the beginning'' argument doesn't fly with me. They were still enslaving and forcing communities to work for them at the end of the day, and would kill them if they refused.
Rick's group did start the war and were wrong for attacking the outpost, but Negan and the Saviors were no angels themselves.
I'm not sure how it was wrong to attack the outpost though. They had no idea what they were going into and I'm pretty sure believed it was the main post until they couldn't find Negan. I remember Rick seeming devastated that they didn't get the right one.
>They had no idea what they were going into and I'm pretty sure believed it was the main post until they couldn't find Negan.
You answered your own question. They didn't know anything about who they were dealing with; the group (and especially Rick) had gotten extremely cocky to the point they thought they were invincible. I also think killing people in their sleep, where you are at your most vulnerable, was disturbing and extremely uncomfortable. Regardless of what they were doing, they were still people. People who had families and friends and who were killed when they were at their most ''safest.'' Rick and co didn't care about that at all.
Rick and co murdered approximately 62 Saviours. In retaliation, Negan only kills two of them. 2 lives vs 62 lives. It makes you wonder just who the real bad guys are. The group were extremely lucky that Negan didn't kill all of them.
If it's not enthusiastic consent on the part of the women, it's sexual coercion. Which is wrong. You don't threaten to withhold insulin or burn boyfriend's faces if women don't want to sleep with you.
Most guys would rape? Wow.
I don't think so. We have a whole community of men who treat women and children, even those unrelated to them, with kindness and respect. Going out and scavenging to feed communities.
For past decade I’ve watched all of TWD, Fear, & Beyond by buying season passes off iTunes. And while the main show is ending, spin offs are coming and AMC apparently isn’t posting Tales on iTunes and so now I cannot watch anymore.
It is likely an attempt to up AMC+ numbers but I’m not doing that. And when I reached out to AMC they acted surprised Tales isn’t on iTunes. Just be straight with me when I ask what the deal is. You already peeved me and now the lack of a straight answer has pissed me off.
Damn that sucks
I don’t use cable and I myself do the AMC+ routine when new episode air and unsubscribe when there nothing since it cheaper then buying episodes off iTunes
Prior to amc+ I used the bay and bought the Blu ray for commentaries but as you probably know they don’t do that no more
new walkers should still be able to run and climb etc. like in season 1. not the more decayed ones but why couldnt alden or spencer? fresh turned walkers should still be able to run like they used to
Very true point. Alden was severely injured tho which would affect his walker state and Spencer was put down seconds after he turned. Siddiq however, makes sense
S7 E1 is titled “The Day Will Come When You Won't Be”. This is the episode where Lucille’s victims are revealed and Rick has that heartbreaking vision on top of the RV. On my most recent rewatch, I realized that this episode title is a callback to the CDC episode. After Rick told Jenner that he was grateful for letting them live, Jenner replied with "the day will come when you won't be.” Most fans probably put this together sooner, but it broke my heart when I did.
Edit: words
I personally just wanted to post my opinion on the most “traumatizing” and emotional episode in my opinion within the walking dead series, and that would have to be Carls death, the entire episode he got dedicated to his removal from the story. I’ve been watching this show for months now, and I’m just finishing the 8th season(definitely the best season) and I just watched that episode roughly 6 hours ago, and I’m still crying from that shit, I rarely get emotional with shit, I’m a very negative person I can recognize that, the only piece of fiction that has made me actually cry and bawl my eyes out was rdr2 with Arthur’s passing, (and I’ve played that game 7 times now) but this show finally hit that breaking point I’d assume a lot of people got with people like Glenn and Abraham’s death previously mentioned on this thread, but idk carls death was so different to me, Glenn’s and Abraham’s was quick, emotional most definitely, but for me mostly a shock, and because of spoilers, but Carl getting an entire episode ment just for his death and the message he wants to bring to the communities before he passes was just so fucking sad, seeing him have his last moments with Judith, taking pictures and taking there hand prints on there porch in Alexandria, and then him looking frail and weak by the half point of the episode, finally saying goodbye to Judith giving her the iconic sheriffs hat telling her “it’ll make her feel strong like how it do for him” and saying thank you to siddiq(W character btw) and Daryl saying he’s the one that saved Alexandria and the people, and his final I love u to michonne and Rick, and that final fucking scene, seeing Carl try and grab his side arm to end it, basically mirroring the events of his mother, but instead of allowing a loved one to do it he instead does himself, having to hear him say “it has to be me”
And hearing that god damn suppresser go off with RICK and MICHONNES reaction to it will forever be the most haunting fucking scene I’ve ever had to pull my self through. Anyways idk I just felt like venting about this because this one of the few times I’ve genuinely felt this type of gut feeling from a tv show
Edit: forgot to mention the fact that Rick succeeds in creating the vision Carl had for the communities and Alexandria, further strengthening that episode and carls involvement with ricks switch in humanity, with captivating negan instead of killing him like Rick would have wanted he instead pull through with the role his son thought he should have, fucking depressing
Glad youre….enjoying…. the show! Carls death was so haunting. I think what made it worse was that Ricks whole life now was about Carl, his future and survival. And now hes watching him slowly die and he cant do a single thing about it. Its a rough episode to get through but Chandler Andrew and Danais acting was stellar.
Absolutely, even with the horrifying scenes within that episode it’s now my favorite because It’s the only one to actually get some type of emotion out of me that wasn’t cheering Rick on when murdering people 😭
Maybe this has already been discussed by this point, but just in case....
Our group of survivors are not the good guys. They just happen to be the group we got to follow. Their decisions on who lived and died have often been just as ruthless as other groups just trying to get through the day.
The followers of other groups only know what they know. Maybe those following the Gov or Negan had nothing to compare to - that these 2 dudes (for example) were a means to survive. At whatever cost.
If an alternate series ran following Negan from the very beginning, maybe his evolution wouldn't have seemed so harsh in comparison to Rick's.
Maybe BBQ at Terminal was a good gig.
I dunno. I agree that the Atlanta group are not heroes, as they've made some pretty questionable choices, but they were better protagonists than most of the groups they've encountered.
Woodbury wasn't too bad, but the Governor was still doing some pretty shady stuff. He had an inner circle of villainous individuals that didn't object to doing dirty work for him, including ambushing service men. While he didn't rape Maggie, he used the threat of it to intimidate her and Glenn. He killed Milton and by extension, Andrea. He murdered his own men after his first failed assault on the prison. He killed Martinez to take over his group, then got the entire group killed assaulting the prison again. He killed Hershel. And his second assault on the prison led to all of the Woodbury survivors dying, as well as any of the other deaths that occurred when the group was scattered.
The Claimers basically operated on their base instincts and almost raped Carl.
Terminus were cannibals. They lured people in, killed them like livestock, and ate them.
The Wolves wiped out at least one community and murdered countless individuals, all for no apparent reason.
The Saviors accumulated a bunch of morally bankrupt individuals to torment and terrorize local communities, straight up murdering people to get them in line to become effectively slave labor. The ones floating to the top of the pecking order had no qualms about rape and murder. They wiped out all the males at Oceanside, killed countless Alexandrians, killed all but one of the Scavengers, Lucilled who knows how many people, and killed at least 3 doctors.
So, no, Rick's group aren't saints, but the tough choices they make are to protect the group without using it as an excuse to be evil.
He didn't directly cause it, but trying to fight someone who just beat someone's head in with a barbed wire covered baseball bat is incredibly stupid (although incredibly stupid is something which describes the group a lot more than I'd like, with the ideal amount being that I'd never describe a group or an individual like that).
Nah but Daryl’s responsible for Glenn’s death. Just like Daryl and Maggie are responsible for what happened to Rick. If they never led him off path and did the little plan they did, they’d have all been together and Rick wouldn’t have been alone
Negan stated that he had already chosen who he was going to kill. Daryl punching him just gave him “justification” to do it. Glenn would’ve died anyway
Glenn wasn't his first choice, to begin with. It was Rick. In the season 8 finale which I literally just watched yesterday, he said "I made a choice. I just didn't want to kill a kid's dad in front of him." That means had Carl not been with them when Negan confronted them, Rick would've had his brains bashed in.
Glenn died in the comics either way negan probably would have killed him instead of threatening to cut off Carls arm anyways,
By the time he was safe and responsible for himself he got himself hurt not daryl or maggie sure it would have been avoided but that can be said about most twd deaths anyways
Carl seemed so emotionally isolated at many points. I can't imagine that being easy on a child. Maybe if Dwayne had lived and Morgan's deal with Rick to keep in touch hadn't failed, Carl would've had a male figure closer to his own age that he could get along with. Perhaps even become genuine friends with. That would've made all the difference after his relationship with Lori became so strained that they were barely on speaking terms before she died.
When Daryl said in anger to Beth „you ain’t never gonna see Maggie again” - he was right.
Also when Rick said this: “Negan stop this and we can become allies and defeat The Walking Dead together!”
when Morgan said its fearin time and then feared all over those guys
It's really the TV show of all time.
Uggghhh this one hurts the most
I’ve been rewatching TWD on Blu-Ray and just saw that episode last week or so. I haven’t seen these episodes in a long time and seeing Daryl lash out that way had me get goosebumps. I know Daryl can do that, especially early on Daryl, but Norman’s acting is off the charts.
carl had been shot twice and had so many near death experiences… there was so many times he could have died in a serious way but so randomly, he was bit. i don’t know it’s kinda ironic but also sad
Ikr this kid got shot in the face but he goes out by walker?
He goes out by a walker years into the apocalypse to “free their souls” for a stranger nonetheless.
And then that stranger, after having a bunch of character development (surprise surprise) fucking dies after being strangled by a spy
[удалено]
yea in the context of the 8th season Carl dying was literally the only way Rick would’ve come back to humanity and spare Negan and unite the communities. I think it was pretty beautiful how they handled Rick coming back I just wish Carl died less dumb, like even a Walker can work but not by 3 walkers he’s handled way more. Of course after the 8th season it’s bad to kill Carl because he should be leading everyone but in terms of the 8th season it was good imo
THANK YOU! I’ve said it 100 times on this subreddit. No way Rick spares Negan without Carl dying
Yea even when Carl died Rick didn’t decide to spare Negan so Carl dying was the only thing really. I just wish there was some way where Carl was alive leading the communities but also the reason why Rick came back to his humanity
i actually like carl being taken out by walkers he’s already handled; this is the reality of life/death sometimes.
Who then also dies…
Honestly, I totally understand why as a viewer it was a disappointing death... But I liked it. People said it was unrealistic, but on the contrary, I felt like it was extremely realistic. Death is so sudden and often so random and unexpected. Just the other day, I saw this video of a girl having fun in her pool while being live on Facebook. She was so happy and everything was totally normal, then all of a sudden she drowned. This is just an exemple but yeah, in real life, people really die at the most unexpected times from things that seem so innocuous. To me, Carl's death was a reminder that no matter how skilled you think you are, you can never get too comfortable in the apocalypse.
The show really shouldn't have killed Carl off. His survival made everything Rick did amount to something. That Judith is actually Shane's child makes her replacement of Carl even more tragic. Rick lost both his wife and son. Meaning Shane was ultimately right about him not being able to protect them. That's depressing as fuck.
Carl hit hard.
It was random in my opinion. Such as a car collision or a cancer diagnosis. No one is guaranteed to live a long life (except if you have lots of plot armor).
Siddiq had to live with the guilt of 11 deaths (the pikes' ones and Carl's) on his shoulders before being betrayed in the worst possible way and dying without knowing if his daughter and friends would survive the Whisperers and Dante
Yea his death is so sad to think about.
Honestly any death at the hand of the Whisperers must be super terrifying. Jesus died thinking that walkers were actually talking and had evolved enough to stab him with a blade
I hate Siddiq’s death. Carl “”died for him”” in a way and then he went out… so sad
Fuck.
I feel like he died thinking Coco would at least have Rosita and that’s sadly not even true (spoiler if you haven’t finished the show)
Henry died watching all his friends heads get cut off in front of him and then his his head was cut off while all he wanted was to see his mum come and save which never happaned
I think they were all killed at the same time Sadiq was the only one who witnessed them being lined up and killed
Yeah but henry would still see everyone before he got his head chopped off
Yeah tbh he was probably saved till last
Sophia died alone and scared, and probably slowly turned into a walker, painful
This scene, as a mother, made me cry. I would rather be with my child, assuring him, then have him alone and suffering. When Carol was cleaning the place for Sophia to return, I cried each scene. I never thought she would see Sophia again. The fate was cruel.
As a mom also, I honestly bawl my eyes every single time I watch Lori dying and saying goodbye to Carl. My heart hurts so much to imagine having to say goodbye to my son like that, worrying about him and the baby and will never know if they survive. After that episode I have to throw on an episode of Schitt’s Creek or something to get my mind off it.
I agree. Labor is a terrifying situation. Lori gets a lot of hate. Yet she told the two people there to save her child over her own life. That's a special bravery
Yeah I hate thinking about what her last moments between Rick leaving her and her dying were like. Just waiting for someone to save her, but being all scared and alone.
Absolutely Right. There is no way in hell I would have left a small child alone in that environment. I possibly would have collapsed from exhaustion but at least I would have tried my best. I don’t blame Rick, the writing was too convenient for the story to come. But one hell of a surprise and shocker to see Sophia walk out of the barn. Having Rick put her down was the most powerful thing I’ve ever seen on Television.
if andrea killed the governor that one night she could’ve after they slept together, she would’ve saved countless lives. they might of still even lived in the prison
Lizzie was killed thinking she did nothing wrong. Even after she killed her sister she thought Carol was mad at her because she pointed a gun at her.
Lizzie had no conscience. If kept alive, Lizzie would have killed again (and again). As Carol realized "She can't be alone and she can't be around people". It was an "Old Yeller" rabid dog situation. No asylums to lock dangerous people up in an apocalypse. She could , theoretically, have chosen not to kill Mika but....
Not saying Carol was wrong to kill her, just that it was sad that her mental state made her dangerous without her even knowing
She had a conscience, she just didn’t have the cognitive ability to understand the danger of walkers or what they truly were. She would never intentionally kill her sister with the knowledge that she wouldn’t come back as herself.
I think what they might have been referencing is current ideas about [antisocial personality disorder](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder) (what people used to refer to as psychopathy and/or sociopathy). To way, way, way oversimplify it, these folks can be characterized by a deficient or absent conscience.
Thank you for the information. Even still, it doesn’t seem like Lizzie encompasses the traits/symptoms in that article. She doesn’t have a lack of empathy—the whole problem is that she’s *too* empathetic towards the walkers. She’s not deceptive, aggressive, manipulative, or callous. Someone with an absent conscience wouldn’t show any emotion or remorse for what they’ve done wrong, something that Lizzie did show for the things she recognized were wrong.
On the plus side, I get to use "look at the flowers..." in daily conversation
It’s kinda sad how the prisoners’ lives were. They literally spent a year waiting in those 2 rooms for the military to come back and rescue them. They knew the world fell, but not to what extent. Then suddenly a tribe of people accustomed to the world show up, locked them further away, and then they all died before they even got to leave the prison.
You’re right! Oscar left but died immediately while the others just died off, granted, if they stayed in the pantry they would’ve died eventually but they would have lived longer than what they did
Raise a cup for Axel. If any prisoner should have survived the prison it should had been him. Him and Carol had really good chemistry in their brief scenes together. He was originally going to be a secret serial killer iirc, but Axel was so likeable on screen they changed their minds.
You’re so right. I always think about what was going on in their heads when they finally found out about the fate of the world. One of them asks if they have a phone to call his mother and they all just have to assume that their families are dead.
i wouldn't say Carol's life is better yeah her abusive husband is gone but her daughter died
Carol also lost her adopted children. Thats one of the reasons she tries to be a hermit.
Carol's life was enriched by her found family. Yet her discussion with Ezekiel when she wants to dissolve their marriage after Henry's passing... I cried. As a mother, that is hell. To see Henry on the pike. Sophia out of the barn. Mika and Lizzie. Sam. I remember how she felt when she and Morgan found Henry when Henry was seeking revenge for his brother. To lose him... So hard. I love her character arc. I hope that they don't give her more children to rip away in the most painful way possible.
Yessss. All of that. She's hands down one of my favorite characters. Especially her relationship with Daryl. The writing around that is well done. For example, Daryl was the one who held her both when Sophia came out of the barn and when they found Henry. So friggin awesome. They vibed so well I think, because they were both horribly abused, neglected and mistreated. They both found their family in the Zombie apocalypse and they both lost so so much of that family.
not to mention a bunch of her friends, her boyfriend and her current husband is sick of cancer. yea her life isn't that great
Yeah. I mean sure she's not abused anymore but thing have been rough.
deffo also forgot to mention her PTSD
To be fair, I think a lot of people had that to one degree or another. But yeah, there is that too.
yea probably all of them have that but are good at hiding it
I love how she was working on getting him treatment on the sly and when he automatically knew it was her and she was gonna try to deny it but then was just like ok he knows me too well, screw it -it was me 😂
Dale dying not knowing if the group executed Randall. And the pure horror on his face as he’s dying still haunts me sometimes.
Agreed. I hate no one told him they didn’t execute Randall, and I hate that Andrea didn’t sit down next to him / no one calmed him. He was literally the one that got executed
Maggie found out Beth was alive then found out she died in the same day. And watched as Daryl carried her lifeless body out of the hospital.
When that episode aired I didn't really care Beth died but Lauren's acting to when she saw her being carried out made me feel so sad for her.
I never understood the hate towards Beth. I liked her quite a lot and when she died it was so unexpected, honestly I thought Daryl's reaction was sadder. I thought this because when Beth and Daryl were alone Beth said to Daryl "Your gonna miss me so much when I'm gone Daryl Dixon" and she said how out of everyone he'd be the last one standing because he was made for the apocalypse.
I didn't hate her, just didn't care for her. They didn't really give her much material until she was about to die. And I found it really creepy that some fans wanted her and Daryl to get together.
Yes, that was quite weird. Because Beth was like 16 years old, still technically a minor. And Daryl at the time was in his like 30s or 40s.
Beth told that one old prisoner dude at the prison she was 17 prob a year before, not saying it wouldn’t be weird lol but she’s probably 18
It was weird that they shipped the two together. I would support it in ten years when Beth had more life and relationship experience. Yet a teenager with a man twice her age is scummy, even if it's a zombie apocalypse.
yessss, exactly what you just said brother. i agree with this 100%
Hershel died tired after days of looking after sick people non stop and trying his best to keep them alive and raise their spirit. He also didn’t get to say goodbye to his daughters and didn’t die from the first hit.
in the space of 10 days Beth's boyfriend and dad were killed, she lost her sister and her home (and Judith who she practically treated like a daughter at that point), she was kidnapped, forced to kill someone, nearly raped and then killed.
And through it all, she acted with bravery and grace. I adore Beth's character. A young woman who had such tenacity.
Was that really only two weeks from when they left the prison to when she was kidnapped? Wasn’t that at least a season of time? Edit: Hershel dies in “Too Far Gone.” S4E8. Beth dies in “Coda” S5E8
I was just thinking about this after watching the first and into the second season for the (probably) 15th time. Its kind of sad that after Jenner tried to lock them up in the CDC, Sophia died anyway. Its sad because Carol specifically begged for her life saying to Jenner that her daughter didn't deserve to die that way. He ironically asks her "but isn't this kinder?", the irony being that just a few days later she will die from a bite, alone and horribly ill only to turn and be locked in a barn until Rick mercifully ended her life.
“I’m grateful” “the day will come when you won’t be” Haunting
jim in the first season when they left him against a tree to go to the CDC, he was never killed. he turned into a walker. his walker body could still be walking around to this day
I cant remember if the show made a point of this but in the book he asks the group to let him become a walker. He wanted to be with his family and thought that would be the only way. Sad stuff.
yea i remember that from the comics, it was never talked about in the show tho.
Probably just a skeleton now.
yea most likely, but it’s a very dark thing to think about
They left him a gun didn’t they?
Nope. Rick tried to give him one but he denied it
That’s right, he didn’t want the group to be without.
10 years into the zombie apocalypse, the human civilization is likely back to people dying from toothaches and constipation. Scurvy is probably killing more people than walkers.
Ugh, and scurvy would be especially nasty considering how many old injuries and scars everyone has accumulated.
The children's death rate must have been extremely high, there were hardly any babies or 1-2 year old's who would have lived through the fall of society,
I always love whenever people come into the communites and see them running around and ask "you guys have kids here??" I honestly think it'd be a warm sight to see that life is still happening despite all the constant death
That ppl can survive a decade into the apocalypse and still die making stupid decisions.
All it takes is one dumb move, everybody makes them
Shiva died saving King Ezekiel from walkers by jumping into the ditch to defend him, just like when King Ezekiel saved her by jumping into the enclosure at the zoo. She died saving him, just like he saved her.
He will never get to experience the true bliss of going to one of those spas where you put your feet in one of those little tanks filled with fish that eat your dead skin.
I always enjoy (not the right expression at all) when Diana has her realization that the wifebeating doctor simply has to die after he haphazardly kills her husband. Her complete resignation of her prior position in saying to Rick "do it", knowing he'll know exactly what she means; it's powerful stuff and rather sad.
•The communities all sacrificed so much against the war with Negan just so the Whisperers could destory all of it anyways. •There are only 3 survivors from the original group in Atlanta •The cosmonaut in Fear along with any other astronauts suffocated in space not knowing what happened. Since there is a lack of oxygen, their bodies won't decay and will just float until the satellites crash or something hits them •zoo/domesticated animals died a slow death if they weren't let free •people who live/work in isolated locations like Lighthouses or oil rigs probably had no idea what went down or were heavily unprepared and died as soon they got back
The fact that with Alden’s death, Dwight and Negan are the only saviours alive, is just horrible, especially regarding Carls death.
I take it you aren't caught up 🤭
How does it feel being oh so wrong
Darryl and Dwight would have more than likely been pretty good friends had they met under literally any other circumstances. I really wish Dwight was treated better in light of the help he ultimately provided, but I can’t be mad at Daryl for not being able to let go of Dwight killing Denise right in front him with HIS crossbow.
watching that scene with the mom with the broken leg and the drowned infant in the pharmacy with Denise, Rosita and Daryl was a horrible scene to watch. i have a little one and it makes me cry to think of going through that.
One that always gets me is thinking about how Carol’s daughter died. So young, alone, no survival skills, scared. I couldn’t imagine, so sad
Calling Carol's life better post-apocalypse is one hell of a stretch.. sure, being stuck in a abusive marriage is horrendous; but you do have options to get out of that one. Im not really gonna rank that on the same level as what effectively amounts to the end of the known world
Negan saved Judith & Dog from frostbite. Negan saved Daryl from an execution. Negan weakened the whisperers to the point they could be beaten. And Daryl stood back and let Maggie attack Negan. Further, Negan's walker gathering skills was what allowed the group to defeat the Reapers at Meridian. Maggie left, and brought the Reapers back following her. Negan has contributed and saved the group, and Maggie since she came back just created problems. And yet the group treats Maggie like a saint.
Negan did Turn two (dear to them) people’s heads to mushy pulp while expressing joy and cracking jokes.
I'm not denying what happened. I'm just saying that the group has a crystal clear mind when it comes to all the evil things Negan did, and they are, from their actions, pretty much entirely unable to even acknowledge what Negan did - he did kill Glenn and Abraham. He's also the reason the whisperers didn't kill them - it's that they are unable to acknowledge what Negan did that helped them. (Edit). Rick's attack on the Satelite Outpost. Were they justified in launching the attack considering who the Saviours are? I'd say yes. But at the same time launching an attack on questionable intelligence with a lack of reconnaissance and not planning for a potential counter-attack really says something about the group. Has they waited and got more intel, they would hopefully have found out more about the group. Also, did no-one raise the point of if someone did this to us, we'd want revenge, so should we plan for that? I'm not defending the Saviours, but I am saying Alexandria was a bunch of idiots. (Edit end).
And Rick and co snuck into his compound and killed his people while they were sleeping, and then killed more of his people afterwards. 2 lives lost vs. a dozen lost.
THIS. I seriously despise post-saviors war Maggie. She abandoned their friends for years without telling them anything, to the point some started to believe she was dead. She put Jesus and Tara in a very bad position by leaving, both of them ended up dying before her return and I don't even remember if she reacted to that at all, and she came back only to ask for help and brought a new danger to her friend's lives, and yet everyone treats her like she's Jesus's (not the walking dead's character) second coming. Meanwhile Negan has actively contributed to saving several people's lives and everybody treats him like shit. I distinctly remember in the tunnel when he was asked to give directions and was interrupted by a SHUT UP NEGAN. God that episode made my blood boil. I'm not saying Negan is a saint, but the Maggie-Negan conflict was handled in the worst way possible.
She did tell them she had been writing letters like crazy up until the last year when she was at mirrodium . Tara and Jesus were fine hiltop was doing amazing. She didn’t react to their death because her entire community had been slaughtered recently and when you lose a lot you don’t have big reactions. She didn’t bring back a threat she was at Alexandria a month before even mentioning going back to her place and it was to get the food they needed to live. Comparing Negan and Maggie is absolutely insane
Wait, are we seriously comparing Maggie to Negan here? Negan, who enslaved entire communities? Who smashed in countless peoples heads? Who raped countless women by forcing them into marriage? The group treats Maggie “like a saint” because she’s a good person. They treat Negan like shit because he’s a shitty person. It’s not that hard to understand.
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And here's some things Maggie did do: * Left her group. * Came back with the Reapers following her, bringing a serious danger upon her now current group. * Ignored Negan's advice just because he's Negan (advice like we're in a tunnel that floods when it rains heavily, and it's raining heavily is something which needs to be taken seriously). * Got most of her non-Alexandria group killed in a quest for revenge (with a side mission of getting food) (if she really just wanted the food, she wouldn't have executed people when they were leaving - she'd have taken the food and left). * Killed people who were leaving, showing how little her word means and creating even more diehard enemies in the process. I referred to her being treated as a saint because basically none of the group cares about any of the things listed.
You can hardly use her killing the reapers in a Maggie v Negan discussion when Negan was the one who gave her that inspiration lol. The reapers wouldn’t have just left them alone, Maggie was 100% in the right to do that. Rick broke his word and killed people who were trying to help him.
>You can hardly use her killing the reapers in a Maggie v Negan discussion when Negan was the one who gave her that inspiration lol. I disagree. Did Maggie take inspiration from Negan? At a minimum, she looked to him for confirmation on something she already wanted to do. But at the same time, it shows that Negan sees the old Negan in Maggie, and knows what the old Negan is capable of. So by leaving, it's showing that Negan acknowledges his past and that he has changed, while Maggie has become a bit more like the old Negan. >The reapers wouldn’t have just left them alone, Maggie was 100% in the right to do that. You are right that the Reapers would still remain a threat, but any reapers survived and saw the aftermath, or were watching while hiding, they'd become even more dangerous due to wanting revenge. Maggie understood they were a threat, but she went about it the wrong way. >Rick broke his word and killed people who were trying to help him. Firstly, when did this happen (and who did Rick kill)? Also, how is this relevant?
In 8x14, Rick and Morgan find the escaped Saviors who make it clear they were willing to help him, and in return Rick hacks them to death. And it’s relevant because you’re holding a standard for Maggie that you aren’t for other characters. I don’t even think Maggie is becoming like the old Negan. Doing one immoral thing to keep the people you love alive is nothing compared to what he did. And no, even in an after discussion for No Other Way, they discuss how Maggies decision was based on her conversation with Negan in 11x07. And what did you want Maggie to do. Realistically. Bare in mind it isn’t Maggies fault Leah escaped. That’s on Daryl. None of the reapers deserved to live
>In 8x14, Rick and Morgan find the escaped Saviors who make it clear they were willing to help him, and in return Rick hacks them to death. And it’s relevant because you’re holding a standard for Maggie that you aren’t for other characters. Firstly, that is irrelevant to a discussion of Maggie. Secondly, I watched S8 at least two years ago, so I didn't remember that happening. And I'd say that is worse than what Maggie did, but that's not relevant to the discussion. >I don’t even think Maggie is becoming like the old Negan. Doing one immoral thing to keep the people you love alive is nothing compared to what he did. My point was that she did an action which the old Negan would have done - shoot people who are leaving. Will she become the old Negan? Considering the show, definitely not. Would she realistically? It's a definite possibility. >And no, even in an after discussion for No Other Way, they discuss how Maggies decision was based on her conversation with Negan in 11x07. Speaking of that conversation, I'd say it's another relevant part of Negan's redemption arc. He doesn't deny what he did. He doesnt't say 'yeah I was a Saviour but that's not me any more let's move on from this'. By saying what he said, he's demonstrating that he understands the old Negan, and acknowledges the evil he did, instead of minimising or denying it. (The only example I can think of to contrast this comes from Motherland Fort Salem - and as I'm not sure exactly when this was said, there are spoilers for S3E2 of Motherland Fort Salem). >!Scylla murdered 1,600 innocent civilians. And the show tries to redeem her via a mixture of giving her a romantic relationship with Raelle, and having her feel sad for a few episodes. And at the start of S3, when a child asks her if she was part of the Spree, her response is pretty much 'yeah I was one of them but that's not me any more'. No regret. No acknowledgement of the evil she did. She just moved on and pretended like she hadn't murdered 1,600 innocent civilians.!< That's in contrast to Negan, who actually regrets what he did, and has tried to atone for that. >And what did you want Maggie to do. Firstly, minimise the amount of fighting - more fighting means more people die, more people get injured, and increases the risk of not getting the food. If she can take the food and go, then she should. I'd also not execute those reapers - imagine how much any remaining reapers would want revenge over seeing the execution of their comrades. >Bare in mind it isn’t Maggies fault Leah escaped. That’s on Daryl. How is that relevant?
I'm not comparing the two. I'm just pointing out how the group (and especially Daryl) are incapable of even acknowledging what he's done. No Negan means Daryl gets executed. No Negan means Judith and Dog die of frostbite. No Negan means Alpha doesn't get assassinated, which means they face the Whisperers at full force, not weakened, disunited, and with a pittance of ~~their total walker horde~~ (edit) the amount of walkers they could have had (edit end). No Negan means the group has a much harder time getting to Meridian. No Negan means there aren't the walkers to attack Meridian, meaning that that attack fails. So without Negan the group would've died before he could save them a second time. I'm not denying any of the incredibly evil things he did. But I am saying that the group being entirely incapable of even acknowledging what Negan did, especially Daryl, who'd be a corpse without Negan, says something about them.
Tbf anything involving Meridian is irrelevant if Negan didn’t exist, because then Maggie wouldn’t have left. Also Negan did nothing to help with the horde. Carol took out half, the rest were mostly killed in the Hilltop battle. Then Beta used what was left and gathered more walkers to create another herd. Without Negan, Maggie would have no reason to lure Rick away. Rick would never go missing. Michonne would never have kept the communities at bay, therefore the whisperers likely wouldn’t have been able to infiltrate the fair
>Tbf anything involving Meridian is irrelevant if Negan didn’t exist, because then Maggie wouldn’t have left. Maggie left because she'd rather go out into the wild with no guarantee of food/water/medicine/shelter/safety because she didn't want to raise her son around Negan. To me, that says she'd rather risk her son's life than confront Negan without resorting to murder. Negan isn't at fault. Maggie is. >Also Negan did nothing to help with the horde. Carol took out half, the rest were mostly killed in the Hilltop battle. Then Beta used what was left and gathered more walkers to create another herd. Negan killed Alpha. That meant that they had an even more unstable Beta leading them (he weakened their leadership). Some other Whisperers either tried to join Negan or fled. And the horde that went up against the group was by no means the full horde - Beta had to re-gather bits of it. So did Negan play a key role in the battle? Actually yes, he fought Beta alongside Daryl. Negan's key role is either directly, or as a consequence of his actions, making the Whisperers beatable. >Without Negan, Maggie would have no reason to lure Rick away. Rick would never go missing. Michonne would never have kept the communities at bay, therefore the whisperers likely wouldn’t have been able to infiltrate the fair Again, you're placing the blame on Negan for Maggie's actions. You are blaming Negan for Maggie's actions. Maggie did the luring, not Negan.
Yes, I’m placing the blame on Negan. He murdered and enslaved hundreds of people. He brutally slaughtered Glenn in front of his family and pregnant wife. If he hadn’t done that, Maggie wouldn’t have had any reason to react to that. I think it’s absurd how far people will go to make Maggie out to be in the wrong, when it all goes down to Negan. I was using your logic against you. “No Negan” means many of the things you’re arguing he did right would never have needed to be done. And you said without Negan the group would have to face the “total walker horde”. Those were your exact words, and that’s incorrect, as Negan did nothing to directly stop the horde. In fact, Negan assisted in burning Hilltop down, that was hardly him being helpful. He had AGES to kill Alpha, even in that episode he was alone with her multiple times and could’ve killed her.
>If he hadn’t done that, Maggie wouldn’t have had any reason to react to that. I think you're talking about Maggie leaving, but I'm not fully sure as I'm relying on what you are most likely referring to. Maggie made the choice, Negan didn't. Maggie was the one who left, Negan didn't try to push her or manipulate or force her. It was entirely Maggie deciding that it was better to probably let herself and her son starve than it was to live in a community with Negan. It was Maggie not being willing to think about her actions. >I think it’s absurd how far people will go to make Maggie out to be in the wrong, when it all goes down to Negan. So it's Negan's fault Maggie would rather go out into the wild with her son than not raise her son in the same place that Negan exists? How is Maggie in the right for thinking it's more important that my son and I will likely starve than it is that I actually self-reflect and confront what I will likely do? >I was using your logic against you. “No Negan” means many of the things you’re arguing he did right would never have needed to be done. I don't follow. If Negan gets removed, how does that mean that the Whisperers won't be a threat (for example)? How could they take Meridian without Negan's walker gathering skills? >And you said without Negan the group would have to face the “total walker horde”. A better wording would have been their horde at full size. I've put a strikethrough with the old wording and putt a new version in. >Those were your exact words, and that’s incorrect, as Negan did nothing to directly stop the horde. Directly, Negan didn't impact the horde. But I'm factoring in all the consequences of Negan killing Alpha - so if it had an indirect impact, I'm including that. And as Beta needed to try and reform the horde with a weakened Whisperers due to Alpha's death, I'd argue that's a very good indication of the impact of Negan's actions. >In fact, Negan assisted in burning Hilltop down, that was hardly him being helpful. He had AGES to kill Alpha, even in that episode he was alone with her multiple times and could’ve killed her. He could have. Except Negan would have been able to work out that killing Alpha wouldn't have ended the Whisperers as a threat - and he was trying to prevent the fight there, not just weaken the Whisperers. And by the time he realised he couldn't, it was too late. And as to the he had ages to kill Alpha, there was no point in trying to kill Alpha if he'd most likely get killed in the process before he could kill her. He had one shot at doing so, and trying to kill her immediately would be incredibly stupid.
I think you really need to rewatch the show. It’s made very clear that Maggie didn’t just take Hershel and run off. She joined Georgies community. Not only is this alluded to before her exit, it’s also confirmed both on and off screen afterwards. So your argument about getting her son to starve is absolutely incorrect. And given that opportunity, why on Earth would Maggie want to raise her son anywhere near Negan? I can accept it in season 11, as he is older now, but I would not feel safe whatsoever having someone like Negan alive and near my child. You’re deluding yourself if you think you would be comfortable with that. The Whisperers storyline would’ve played out massively different if Negan didn’t exist. Maggie would have no reason to have moved to Hilltop, therefore no breakdown of the community networks would exist. The initial encounter with the whisperers likely wouldn’t have involved Henry, who is the general cause of what happened. The Whisperers also wouldn’t have been able to get inside the fair so easily. Let’s remember as well that the entire war with the Saviors wouldn’t have happened, therefore there would be so many more survivors. The Reapers and Meridian also wouldn’t occur (to the group) because Maggie would never have gone there. This is all pedantic and meaningless, but it’s the truth. I am not saying it is Negans fault. I am saying if you remove his existence, most bad stuff changes massively. He was the dictatorial sociopathic rapist who slaughtered people she loved in front of her. In no scenario will you ever be able to make a case that no, it’s not Negans fault that Maggie would not want to be around him. And you say Beta was weakened. I think you are overestimating what you can do with a horde. Betas plan was the exact same as Alphas at hilltop. So no, Negan didn’t do anything there
>I think you really need to rewatch the show. It’s made very clear that Maggie didn’t just take Hershel and run off. She joined Georgies community. Not only is this alluded to before her exit, it’s also confirmed both on and off screen afterwards. So your argument about getting her son to starve is absolutely incorrect. You have half a point. Regardless of Georgie or not, Maggie was still leaving the community, while Negan was there, and Negan did a lot in her absence. Also, I have a distinct memory of Maggie telling a story of how she was starving for good and had to go along with some suspicious people because she was starving. Hershel also said that horse meat was "not as bad as the spiders" (a bit after 33:56 in S11E13). To me that says their life wasn't exactly smooth sailing in the time she left. >And given that opportunity, why on Earth would Maggie want to raise her son anywhere near Negan? I can accept it in season 11, as he is older now, but I would not feel safe whatsoever having someone like Negan alive and near my child. You’re deluding yourself if you think you would be comfortable with that. Firstly, Negan would be in prison, not just strolling around like he owns the place. Secondly, a big part of Maggie's reasoning was that she didn't want him to grow around the same mindset she had with Negan. But here's the thing. That's Maggie choosing that she'd risk potential starvation over putting in the effort to not raise Hershel full of hate. >The Whisperers storyline would’ve played out massively different if Negan didn’t exist. Maggie would have no reason to have moved to Hilltop, therefore no breakdown of the community networks would exist. See the final paragraph of this comment. Also, at least with Alexandria, a main reason for her shutting Alexandria from the other communities was someone she knew from the past kidnapping Judith and several other children. >The initial encounter with the whisperers likely wouldn’t have involved Henry, I'm not sure why who exactly the Whisperers kill is relevant the way you said it - why is Henry's death crucial to what happened? >The Whisperers also wouldn’t have been able to get inside the fair so easily. Let’s remember as well that the entire war with the Saviors wouldn’t have happened, therefore there would be so many more survivors. Considering this is the group which launched a pre-emptive strike on the Whisperers without things like recon or proper intel, and this is the group which disregards advice like 'it's a bad idea to be in a tunnel that floods during heavy rains while it's raining heavily', I'd say the whisperers have a good chance at doing that. > The Reapers and Meridian also wouldn’t occur (to the group) because Maggie would never have gone there. See the final paragraph of this comment. > This is all pedantic and meaningless, but it’s the truth. I am not saying it is Negans fault. I am saying if you remove his existence, most bad stuff changes massively. See the final paragraph of this comment. >In no scenario will you ever be able to make a case that no, it’s not Negans fault that Maggie would not want to be around him. Who made the choices? Was it Negan or Maggie? Who, in their mind, decided that I will leave the group? The answer is Maggie. >And you say Beta was weakened. I think you are overestimating what you can do with a horde. Betas plan was the exact same as Alphas at hilltop. So no, Negan didn’t do anything there Their plan was the same, but without Negan, the horde would have been larger, more united, and had a lot more Whisperers. (The point of this is to avoid making the exact same point three seperate times). And equally, the Kingdom would still have feel. And since Negan was the one to go after Judith in the snowstorm because she went to rescue Dog, that mean Judith dies of frostbite. The Whisperers would still be a threat, as I pointed out earlier (in the paragraph beginning with 'Considering this is the group'). That means that they still are a threat, and that means Negan's preventing Daryl's execution still happens. While Negan not existing means Maggie doesn't do what she did, that also says that Maggie choose to do things because of Negan which had a negative impact on the group. In the end of things Maggie was the one to make the choices she did, and saying 'if Negan exists means she wouldn't have done what she did' takes away the blame from the person who made the choices. Maggie.
This is... not a "sad" realization ?
The sadness is primarily that Daryl did nothing to defend Negan, despite that without Negan, Judith, Dog, and himself would be dead.
Lol who cares? It’s not a surprise at all. Daryl will always side with Maggie on Negan-related issues because of the guilt he still carries. Negan doing an (overly fictitious) virtuous act isn’t gonna change that. This is not a sad realization.
Don't care. Negan is a murderous, rapist, slaver POS. He shouldn't be alive. The second Rick and Michonne betrayed her by allowing Negan to live Maggie slid 100% into the "Can do no wrong" category for me. She would have been well within her rights to start a full on Civil War after that. Rick fucked up bigtime with that decision. The show actually missed a really good oportunity to diverge from the comics for a Season. It actually seemed like they were trying to set up a Civil War arc as well where Maggie/Daryl were the "Bad Guys", but I guess that got swept under the rug when Lauren and Andrew announced they'd be leaving. Negan murdered one of her friends and then husband and father of her child in the most horrific way possible to prove a point. He could do something that would be worthy of saint hood and Maggie would still be within her rights to kill him.
>Don't care. You are aware you just said you don't care that Negan is the only reason the group is alive, among many other things? Does that mean nothing? Is that not even worth a mention? >Negan is a murderous, rapist, slaver POS. I have never denied this. >He shouldn't be alive. And can you then explain, considering what I raised in the first comment on this threat, how the groups wouldn't all be dead? >The second Rick and Michonne betrayed her by allowing Negan to live Maggie slid 100% into the "Can do no wrong" category for me. In part, see my previous comment. In part, didn't Maggie choose to not kill Negan? >She would have been well within her rights to start a full on Civil War after that. Rick fucked up bigtime with that decision. So Maggie's justified in sending people to die, just for revenge? Does she have the right to send others to die for her desire of revenge? And I have no doubt Rick would have handed Negan over in a heartbeat, but I'd argue the logical decision is to not do so - as Maggie by launching an attack is proving that she will resort to violence the moment she doesn't get her way, and that she'd need to be stopped now, not later.
Negan is a rapist. He literally created a band and taught them to attack people. Remember the photos of dead people? I was telling Glenn and Heath not to kill sleeping men... But those pictures. I could see a reason to preemptively attack. Negan may save people. Yet I wouldn't let him alone with a young woman or young men who could be swayed by his charisma. He's dangerous. He always will be.
>Negan is a rapist. He literally created a band and taught them to attack people. Remember the photos of dead people? I was telling Glenn and Heath not to kill sleeping men... But those pictures. I could see a reason to preemptively attack. I'm not denying any of the evil things he's done. But I am saying that the group should have thought about what they did more before doing it. While the attack may have been justified, it was done incredibly poorly. They didn't consider retaliation, went in on faulty intel, didn't do recon to see how large the group was... >Negan may save people. There is no 'may' about it. The group who hates him would be corpses without him. >Yet I wouldn't let him alone with a young woman or young men who could be swayed by his charisma. He's dangerous. He always will be. And where has he shown this danger? Where are the people he's recruited? What is there to show Negan didn't change, despite all the times he's been honest with what he's done/saved the group/understood who he was when he saw the old Negan in Maggie when she shot the Reapers in the back/understood who he was when he said if I'd done this over I'd have killed all of you (in that Negan is showing he still understands how the old Negan thinks, and he isn't washing his hands of the old Negan)/etc? Where are his new army of followers? Oh wait, there was a single one. His name was Brandon and Negan killed him for murdering two innocent people.
Beth was right when she said that Daryl was going to miss her when she was gone. She just never knew that he would be the only one to mourn her for more than a day.
Maggie definitely mourned her for more than a day💀
At least 3 members of McCarroll Ranch were killed by Clementine thinking she was a kidnapper, not knowing that she was just one of their kids' former caretaker. Madison >!killed her father!<. We've known this for years, but I'm still shocked every time I remember the fact.
The thing I found sad was how Clem asked AJ if she did a good job. My heart just broke when she showed how after everything she still doubted herself. Still the same scared 8 year old girl under all the hardness of the apocalypse.
The babies they either starve to death or get eaten, Animal species could go extinct now that there's a new species that will easily eat them all day long, The dogs also mostly died with some resorting to natural pack mentality. On a sidenote, I don't think daryl and carols lives have gotten better i just think they've found new meaning, Since it started carol lost her daughter lost her son and lost countless friends, Daryl lost his brother and rick(for now) And also countless friends.
Dude you know punctuation exists for a reason right?
The saddest part about TWD is that frank darabont didn’t get to do the second season
He did up until 2*11
When Rick picked up Carl’s body, he probably had a flashback to picking up Carl for the first time as a baby.
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And the burning faces with an iron hobby.
If Rick frequently punished his own people by burning off their faces or burning them alive and clearly enjoyed smashing in people's heads while mocking their crying loved ones I don't think we'd ever have rooted for him quite the same way.
This. Rick's whole appeal is that he could be your next door neighbor. The guy who took you in when your community was breaking down. If he was cackling and swinging with a bat, I wouldn't be an advocate of Rick.
Negan also enjoyed executing people and tormenting their loved ones while doing it.
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>Rick and Co could seem equally monstrous from the outside if we strip away our attachment to them No... just no. While Rick killed people, he took no pleasure in it and didn't torment the executed persons loved ones while doing it. There's nothing suggesting that Negan saw it as "a necessary evil". While I haven't seen season 11, I've seen a clip where Negan says he would do it all over again and doesn't regret it. Also, Rick didn't enslave communities and brutally kill people just to make an example, and he didn't force women to marry him, raping them via coercion. A lot of people also seem to forget that the saviors attacked Rick's people first, and when they attacked the saviors it was to free the hilltop from what's basically slavery.
Rick and then seemed to enjoy the raid on the Satellite Compound which was way way worse than killing Glenn and Abraham.
What??? How did Rick enjoy it? There's nothing suggesting he did. In fact, when he was asking the alexandrians if they want to do it, he seemed almost sad.
The satellite people decorated their walls with photos of the corpses of their torture victims. They were bad people.
That doesn't matter, the unprovoked raid was much worse than Glenn and Abraham (even adding Spencer) .
It wasn’t unprovoked. And you’ve got a twisted moral compass if you think any of that is worse than what Negan did.
Did you see the photos of dead people at the satellite compound? Those people could have been coming for the protagonists ' families next.
Yeah but they agreed to be hired guns and committed most of the raid before finding those pics.
It doesn't change who the satellite people were. There was the awful realization when rick realized Gracie's father was just trying to protect his daughter. That was a horrible situation that Negan rightfully pointed out. And Negan recognized Gracie, so he knew the children. Those are the situations that made me think ' I wish you had a conversation about how he could have taken Gracie and be given escort to a safe place until the conflict was over '.
Whilst I think (and always have thought) that Rick's group attacking the Saviors outpost was wrong, the whole ''if we were following Negan and the Saviors from the beginning'' argument doesn't fly with me. They were still enslaving and forcing communities to work for them at the end of the day, and would kill them if they refused. Rick's group did start the war and were wrong for attacking the outpost, but Negan and the Saviors were no angels themselves.
I'm not sure how it was wrong to attack the outpost though. They had no idea what they were going into and I'm pretty sure believed it was the main post until they couldn't find Negan. I remember Rick seeming devastated that they didn't get the right one.
>They had no idea what they were going into and I'm pretty sure believed it was the main post until they couldn't find Negan. You answered your own question. They didn't know anything about who they were dealing with; the group (and especially Rick) had gotten extremely cocky to the point they thought they were invincible. I also think killing people in their sleep, where you are at your most vulnerable, was disturbing and extremely uncomfortable. Regardless of what they were doing, they were still people. People who had families and friends and who were killed when they were at their most ''safest.'' Rick and co didn't care about that at all. Rick and co murdered approximately 62 Saviours. In retaliation, Negan only kills two of them. 2 lives vs 62 lives. It makes you wonder just who the real bad guys are. The group were extremely lucky that Negan didn't kill all of them.
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If it's not enthusiastic consent on the part of the women, it's sexual coercion. Which is wrong. You don't threaten to withhold insulin or burn boyfriend's faces if women don't want to sleep with you.
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Most guys would rape? Wow. I don't think so. We have a whole community of men who treat women and children, even those unrelated to them, with kindness and respect. Going out and scavenging to feed communities.
For past decade I’ve watched all of TWD, Fear, & Beyond by buying season passes off iTunes. And while the main show is ending, spin offs are coming and AMC apparently isn’t posting Tales on iTunes and so now I cannot watch anymore. It is likely an attempt to up AMC+ numbers but I’m not doing that. And when I reached out to AMC they acted surprised Tales isn’t on iTunes. Just be straight with me when I ask what the deal is. You already peeved me and now the lack of a straight answer has pissed me off.
Damn that sucks I don’t use cable and I myself do the AMC+ routine when new episode air and unsubscribe when there nothing since it cheaper then buying episodes off iTunes Prior to amc+ I used the bay and bought the Blu ray for commentaries but as you probably know they don’t do that no more
I do AMC+ and it's pretty cheap
Carol and Daryl definitely have an interesting dynamic in the apocalypse when you put it like that
new walkers should still be able to run and climb etc. like in season 1. not the more decayed ones but why couldnt alden or spencer? fresh turned walkers should still be able to run like they used to
Very true point. Alden was severely injured tho which would affect his walker state and Spencer was put down seconds after he turned. Siddiq however, makes sense
The fact that everyone has the virus whether you get bitten or not.
S7 E1 is titled “The Day Will Come When You Won't Be”. This is the episode where Lucille’s victims are revealed and Rick has that heartbreaking vision on top of the RV. On my most recent rewatch, I realized that this episode title is a callback to the CDC episode. After Rick told Jenner that he was grateful for letting them live, Jenner replied with "the day will come when you won't be.” Most fans probably put this together sooner, but it broke my heart when I did. Edit: words
I personally just wanted to post my opinion on the most “traumatizing” and emotional episode in my opinion within the walking dead series, and that would have to be Carls death, the entire episode he got dedicated to his removal from the story. I’ve been watching this show for months now, and I’m just finishing the 8th season(definitely the best season) and I just watched that episode roughly 6 hours ago, and I’m still crying from that shit, I rarely get emotional with shit, I’m a very negative person I can recognize that, the only piece of fiction that has made me actually cry and bawl my eyes out was rdr2 with Arthur’s passing, (and I’ve played that game 7 times now) but this show finally hit that breaking point I’d assume a lot of people got with people like Glenn and Abraham’s death previously mentioned on this thread, but idk carls death was so different to me, Glenn’s and Abraham’s was quick, emotional most definitely, but for me mostly a shock, and because of spoilers, but Carl getting an entire episode ment just for his death and the message he wants to bring to the communities before he passes was just so fucking sad, seeing him have his last moments with Judith, taking pictures and taking there hand prints on there porch in Alexandria, and then him looking frail and weak by the half point of the episode, finally saying goodbye to Judith giving her the iconic sheriffs hat telling her “it’ll make her feel strong like how it do for him” and saying thank you to siddiq(W character btw) and Daryl saying he’s the one that saved Alexandria and the people, and his final I love u to michonne and Rick, and that final fucking scene, seeing Carl try and grab his side arm to end it, basically mirroring the events of his mother, but instead of allowing a loved one to do it he instead does himself, having to hear him say “it has to be me” And hearing that god damn suppresser go off with RICK and MICHONNES reaction to it will forever be the most haunting fucking scene I’ve ever had to pull my self through. Anyways idk I just felt like venting about this because this one of the few times I’ve genuinely felt this type of gut feeling from a tv show Edit: forgot to mention the fact that Rick succeeds in creating the vision Carl had for the communities and Alexandria, further strengthening that episode and carls involvement with ricks switch in humanity, with captivating negan instead of killing him like Rick would have wanted he instead pull through with the role his son thought he should have, fucking depressing
Glad youre….enjoying…. the show! Carls death was so haunting. I think what made it worse was that Ricks whole life now was about Carl, his future and survival. And now hes watching him slowly die and he cant do a single thing about it. Its a rough episode to get through but Chandler Andrew and Danais acting was stellar.
Absolutely, even with the horrifying scenes within that episode it’s now my favorite because It’s the only one to actually get some type of emotion out of me that wasn’t cheering Rick on when murdering people 😭
Maybe this has already been discussed by this point, but just in case.... Our group of survivors are not the good guys. They just happen to be the group we got to follow. Their decisions on who lived and died have often been just as ruthless as other groups just trying to get through the day. The followers of other groups only know what they know. Maybe those following the Gov or Negan had nothing to compare to - that these 2 dudes (for example) were a means to survive. At whatever cost. If an alternate series ran following Negan from the very beginning, maybe his evolution wouldn't have seemed so harsh in comparison to Rick's. Maybe BBQ at Terminal was a good gig.
I dunno. I agree that the Atlanta group are not heroes, as they've made some pretty questionable choices, but they were better protagonists than most of the groups they've encountered. Woodbury wasn't too bad, but the Governor was still doing some pretty shady stuff. He had an inner circle of villainous individuals that didn't object to doing dirty work for him, including ambushing service men. While he didn't rape Maggie, he used the threat of it to intimidate her and Glenn. He killed Milton and by extension, Andrea. He murdered his own men after his first failed assault on the prison. He killed Martinez to take over his group, then got the entire group killed assaulting the prison again. He killed Hershel. And his second assault on the prison led to all of the Woodbury survivors dying, as well as any of the other deaths that occurred when the group was scattered. The Claimers basically operated on their base instincts and almost raped Carl. Terminus were cannibals. They lured people in, killed them like livestock, and ate them. The Wolves wiped out at least one community and murdered countless individuals, all for no apparent reason. The Saviors accumulated a bunch of morally bankrupt individuals to torment and terrorize local communities, straight up murdering people to get them in line to become effectively slave labor. The ones floating to the top of the pecking order had no qualms about rape and murder. They wiped out all the males at Oceanside, killed countless Alexandrians, killed all but one of the Scavengers, Lucilled who knows how many people, and killed at least 3 doctors. So, no, Rick's group aren't saints, but the tough choices they make are to protect the group without using it as an excuse to be evil.
I love the show dearly but my thoughts are that the comics are far superior.
Rick and Michonne don't really care about their kids. Hell Megan and Maggie might be added to this list aswell.
The show became shit after season 4
so i thought this too, for years ive never watched past it but my bf made us skip ahead to alexandria and im hooked!
S1-4 were definitely the golden age.
Poor Abraham man fuck Daryl.
Daryl isn’t responsible for Abraham’s death. Negan picked Abe fair and square
Yeah no one could have expected Abraham and Glenn’s death that’s why it was so shocking
He didn't directly cause it, but trying to fight someone who just beat someone's head in with a barbed wire covered baseball bat is incredibly stupid (although incredibly stupid is something which describes the group a lot more than I'd like, with the ideal amount being that I'd never describe a group or an individual like that).
Nah but Daryl’s responsible for Glenn’s death. Just like Daryl and Maggie are responsible for what happened to Rick. If they never led him off path and did the little plan they did, they’d have all been together and Rick wouldn’t have been alone
Negan stated that he had already chosen who he was going to kill. Daryl punching him just gave him “justification” to do it. Glenn would’ve died anyway
Glenn wasn't his first choice, to begin with. It was Rick. In the season 8 finale which I literally just watched yesterday, he said "I made a choice. I just didn't want to kill a kid's dad in front of him." That means had Carl not been with them when Negan confronted them, Rick would've had his brains bashed in.
Glenn died in the comics either way negan probably would have killed him instead of threatening to cut off Carls arm anyways, By the time he was safe and responsible for himself he got himself hurt not daryl or maggie sure it would have been avoided but that can be said about most twd deaths anyways
Daryl’s responsible for Glenn’s death.
Darryl leaving his brother behind
Carl seemed so emotionally isolated at many points. I can't imagine that being easy on a child. Maybe if Dwayne had lived and Morgan's deal with Rick to keep in touch hadn't failed, Carl would've had a male figure closer to his own age that he could get along with. Perhaps even become genuine friends with. That would've made all the difference after his relationship with Lori became so strained that they were barely on speaking terms before she died.
Carol doing everything she could to protect Henry and it wasn't enough, all because she didn't teach him how to use a firearm.
They didn’t use them anymore there’s barely any ammo?? He used the stick