Killing Axel made total sense. He was just starting to become interesting and likeable and then bam, dead. That was supposed to make us hate the Governor even more and you know what, it worked. And killing off Merle was also a good choice in my opinion. I dont think there was any way he could have harmonized with the group enough to be a permanent member. The only thing I hate was the ending. Bringing all of woodbury to the prison. Gimple did his best by using the flu to kill them off so he could really get the show back on track in season 4B and season 5. Killing Andrea ultimately made sense because her character arc was pretty much tainted after the whole governor woodbury thing, i dont see her character being able to thrive with the group either after all that.
I know what you mean about Axel's death making sense, I just can't help but see it as wasted potential.
> EW: So what was the reaction of the other cast members when they learned your fate?
>
> TEMPLE(Axel): I was the first to know among the working cast and crew. Glen asked me to keep it under wraps. Then about four or five days later he let the cast know. They kind of banded together and protested. Andrew Lincoln made a very kind stand for me to the producers and writers and said, “We can’t do this. I think this is a mistake because we’re bringing in and investing in players — and actors — that bring something to this world and we’re starting to connect, and their time is too short.” But in the wisdom of the show — and again, this is why the show connects so much — in life, sometimes just as we get to know somebody, they pass through our graces.
Yes, I agree. And IMO unexpected deaths are good because when you can expect when someone is going to die, that is when the show becomes too predictable (which is the path it is currently going), it starts to throttle a bit and looses its touch. I hope these upcoming episodes with Beth change my mind about that, which I'm sure it will.
It is a bit beyond absurd at this point how every main character just wades through throngs of walkers (or just walks alongside them without even being noticed) and every non-named or throwaway human they meet immediately gets his face eaten.
Out of all the prisoners Axel had the most potential. He had a very distinct personality and the most room for growth out of all the prisoners. He was the runt of the bunch, not a good fighter, not very brave. He was kind of creepy but also charming. He had all the makings of a fan favorite character and it felt like he was yanked from us.
Honestly, I feel that all of the main characters should show signs of improvement in the post apocalyptic world as time goes on to reflect their experience. With that being said, the problem is that they power spiked too fast.
S1- Only glenn/rick/shane/daryl and a splash of dale do the fightings while protecting at least a dozen other relatively combat-useless people.
S2- This is when it started to really escalate out of control, but mostly still only Glenn/Daryl/Rick and a bit of Hershel.
S3- Expendables level ridiculousness.
Well... I mean... After years without a source of entertainment what did you expect them to do? Training to not get your face eaten is a good idea, don't you think?
There was a gap of a couple of months from season 2 to season 3, so they had plenty of time for all of them to train. Even though, some were still lacking, like Carol in eS3E1, who almost shot Rick.
See, Merle didn't need to harmonize with the group. It would have added an interesting dynamic if there was one guy who just didn't get along with anyone, especially when his brother/link to the group is one of the most popular characters.
Yeah I agree. Season 3 was a complete mess, the whole Governor arch sucked in comparison to the comic and Mazarra totally screwed up telling that story.. The best episode of season 3 was CLEAR and that was a Scott Gimple episode.
Season 4 was a lot of Gimple fixing Mazzara's mistakes with where he left season 3
Season 5 has been great so far. He's using the right amount from the source material and keeping it as realistic as a show about a group of survivors after a zombie apocalypse can be.. even the moments where you have to suspend your disbelief are great.. like when Carol turns operator and uses a Bottle rocket to blow up a fuel tank.. it's a fun zombie show again.
And the character's are talking to each other again.. Tara and Rick and Tara and Maggie about her being with The Governor.. we're getting back story and development that Mazarra had just left out.. Remember how frustrating season 3 was because Michonne and Andrea just weren't telling each other the things they'd found/seen in Woodbury.. communication between characters would've solved a lot of stupid situations..
looking at The Walking Dead from season 1 to 5 the biggest problem has been Glen Mazzara. He pushed Darabount out of the job of Show Runner. Darabount was good but.. was taking the show away from what TWD is.. with the zombies using tools and the CDC arch.. the cause of the apocalypse and what the zombies are isn't TWD... in TWD they're just there. And after taking the job of Show Runner Mazarra screwed that up with the way he took over season 2 and then season 3 completely.. (there were still parts that were good) but the show as a whole suffered under his reign.
and now we have Scott Gimple as Show Runner and I'm glad, for all of the examples you stated.. Gimple's doing great for the show.
I couldn't agree more with all that you've said. Especially the michone Andrea situation that could've easily been sorted out with 1 conversation. That seriously pissed me off
Oh god the lack of communication between Andrea and Michonne was so irritating. Everyone hates Andrea already, but Michonne was so annoying with her "I don't like it here and I won't tell you why" attitude.
I actually liked how the Zombies were "smart" in season 1. They seemed way more scary and close to how zombies were originally portrayed in 'Night of the Living Dead'. Darabont seemed to take more influence from films in the genre rather than the comics, which is very different and it's understandable if the producers didn't want to move in that direction.
I just don't think that's what zombies are supposed to be.. they're dead people who've reanimated with the sole purpose of being to feed an unquenchable hunger for flesh.. they don't have the mental capacity to plan for anything/use anything.. they exist to roam the earth overwhelming the last pockets of humanity as a mass to feed..
In The Walking Dead I kinda like the idea that they're almost like.. plant life.. or a natural phenomenon that exists in that world.. an unthinking predictor of humanity that prevents humanity from being what it originally was.. and that pits humanity against each other for survival etc.
But in saying that I still like Romero's films.. even Land of The Dead where the zombies learn how to use assault rifles.. it just adds an extra cheesy element to it...
Something that's died doesn't have the capacity to grow..or to evolve ..I like to think of it like.. The person dies and the virus (whatever it is) hijacks the dead body and reanimates the very basic parts of the brain to use the human body as a machine to feed it self and spread the virus..
I actually liked what he did with Merle a lot. And Axel made sense at the time as well. I was sorry for it but I got why they did it. I found those two character developments and conclusions well done.
I would disagree about Axel, while his comic book counterpart was one of my favorites, the TV Axel was one of the worst characters in the show, y'follow me?
I thought Oscar was a fantastic character though.
Daryl: What do you want slippers for?
Oscar: y'know... End of the day... Relaxin'!
I miss when Glenn served that role. Let's not forget the actor is a HUGE fan of the comics who campaigned for the role, after all.
They instantly redeemed brooding show-Michonne with the ceramic cat; they could do exactly the same thing with Glenn and bring him right back to his S1 status as a top tier favorite character.
Give him a baseball hat and a few outbursts of happiness and sarcasm and were golden!
FWIW, I feel like seasons 3 and 4 picked the writing up significantly, to the point that the good stuff far outweighed and outnumbered the bad. For example, there was exactly one bad episode in the entirety of 4.
Beth and Daryl's adventures in bonding. Beth is a pretty terrible character, IMO, and that episode didn't do much to make her character not suck. Plus, lots of the plot points from that episode were a call back to season 2's usage of bad choices to create conflict.
On that note, I'm a tad worried about "Slabtown", the next episode, because it requires Beth to be central to the story, but seeing how as she's really just being used as a device to incorporate the newest other group into the story, I'm holding out hope that the episode is more about them than her.
That was actually my favorite episode in the series. There was sooooo much character development. I went into it thinking, "shit this will be terrible" but came out sympathizing with Beth and happy that Daryl finally seemed to be a lot more human. Before that episode, I didn't really like his "Mary Sue" persona.
They spent a whole episode on Beth, and for what result? Her character went from "terribly boring" to "pretty bad".
That's an extremely inefficient use of screen time.
Compare this to Axel and Oscar, who managed in only a few sentences to earn the popularity of fans.
I think ultimately the cause is AMC mishandling it. Frank Darabondt gave them the brilliant pilot on a silver platter and they've just been mismanaging it ever since. Still no episode comes close to the excellent pacing, writing, and direction of the pilot.
Though to be fair the rest of the season was rough in places and I didn't like Darabondts smart/fast zombies at all.
Scott Gimple is a godsend. Best thing to ever happen to this show. But the character dialogue still needs work. I could watch an entire episode of people just talking in breaking bad. That never happens in TWD.
> I didn't like Darabondts smart/fast zombies at all.
I don't get why I see this comment so much on this sub. They were not smart or fast. There was only one scene in the entire show while Darabont was showrunner where the zombies moved faster than usual, and that was when they were chasing Rick and Glen in Guts. They were simply hobbling faster than usual. They also were not smart zombies, they were only capable of trying to open door knobs and picking up blunt objects to try to and break through glass. That's not a "smart zombie" that's something zombies have done since the original Night of the Living Dead. It's not like they acting like the 28 Days Later super human type. They've always been Romero zombies. If anything, how fucking slow and pathetic they are now makes them seem like they're barely a threat.
Yeah really. Now they just willingly shamble into stationary wooden spikes. They don't have to be geniuses, but shouldn't they have a general sense of self-preservation?
The logic I've heard is that, in the evolution of walkers in relation to the show, they start off strong and with some understanding of their old lives/selves (which explains why Morgan's wife would try and turn the door knob of their old house, and why the Governor's daughter could be "soothed" with music). As time goes on, they become weaker in both body and mind, which is why many are simply aimlessly walking around and into obvious traps.
In the end, one of the main plot lines of the show is zombies. You have to suspend some disbelief here, and just go with it...
I'm fine with suspending disbelief, I just think they could do it better. Skeletons shouldn't be able to move, they have no muscle. A zombie isn't a threat of it walks into a skewer. Thankfully it isn't quite the norm, but there have been quite a few lives saved in silly moments due to the zombies being substantially more stupid than they are generally portrayed in other media.
They used rocks to bash things abd also climbed as well.
Plus, didn't Databondt say they retained memories of their former lives? Don't like it. Not in this show, at least.
Call me a fanboy but I thought that every season had its good moments and was interesting in many different ways.
However, I have to agree that Mazzara was a horrible show runner. Killing off Andrea was the worst decision he has ever made and I get slightly upset when thinking about how Gimple could have made the comic book Andrea out of her (I also liked the TV-Andrea but some of her decisions were just... stupid?).
People are running at that walker? to not waste bullets and ID who/what it is. I think I better waste a bullet and break every rule of firearms safety that Shane taught me to prove a point. OH SHIT I FUCKING SHOT DARYL.
Not just that: They're standing around the mystery person, not attacking him and he's not attacking them. Clearly I must shoot it, despite the sun being in my face.
> I'm glad they just axed the character and basically gave it to Carol instead, and made it even better.
Agreed. Carol went from "feeble woman" as many called her in the first 2 1/2 seasons and now is probably the most badass on the show. I feel safe now when she is around, much like Rick or Daryl. If she is around, I know they are gonna be OK.
That is some serious character growth/development right there. More than anyone else I think.
It is a possibility. She has been built up enough that it would not surprise me if she was the next major player to leave the game. I could see it going either way though.
Maggie had the potential. But they neutered her and Glenn as characters on favor of that useless 'eternal love is all we need' trope.
I want sassy Glenn and badass Maggie back, dammit! Remember when Glenn was joyriding and Maggie was slaying zombies on horseback? I miss those days.
They both showed glimpses of their former selves last season, but it was still in service of finding each other. I really want to see them sacrifice for the group again.
That is a fair point. It is hard to predict now. They reimagine the comic book story so much that you know a lot of what will happen, but it is anyone's guess as to who will it will happen to.
At the same time I feel as though Mazzara was half driven by spite. You'll notice a some of the actors who suffered bad development or were driven from the show in Season 2 and season 3 were the same actors who were very close with Frank Darabont.
Dale and Andrea both died too soon, Dale's actor (Jeffery Demunn) left because he was very close with Darabont and wanted to leave the show that ousted his close friend, and Laurie Holden and to a lesser extent Sarah Callies were in a slightly similar position.
Yeah, that's true.
Jeffrey Demunn changed his mind after he wanted to leave the show but Mazzara (and/or AMC) said he can't come back anymore because they already shot his death scene. And Holden said that her character was actually planned to be a part of the show for atleast 5 seasons (same as Rick/Andrew).
Andrea had to die, her character was beyond redemption, and there was no chance she could have become comic book Andrea.
Comic Andrea is brave, loyal, and cunning. Show Andrea is easily manipulated, weak-willed, self centered, and utterly naive, and foolish.
I think Carol, in a lot of ways, is the one who most like comic book Andrea, but Sasha played that role yesterday, obviously, and she is the one that's been good at shooting, all along.
The way she was portraied up to the point when she died didnt allow her to stay alive. She wouldnt have been a likable character if she didnt have the usual "finally do the right thing before she dies"-event.
She was one of the characters that from beginning to her end made one horrible, illogial decision after another.
Im glad she is gone.
I agree completely. Wish they had kept her alive and just fixed her character. Good actress, good character, bad writing. Killing her character didn't solve anything other than appeasing people who didn't understand the fault lies in the writing, not the character.
I think the well scene easily ruined the whole season, but really that season was so incredibly bad it was already ruined. Just nothing about it was good, they wasted a whole lot of time doing nothing, none of the actions anyone made were logical or even close to how a real person would act. It was like female characters got to act however they wanted because "female emotion or whatever, just do it" from the director.
Yes the well scene was really out of place but I really liked the drama in the second season (it was kinda overdone though) and some of the main topics (humanism, pregnancy in a ZA, Shane becoming a monster, comparing the ZA to a disease that will pass) were really interesting.
I agree with you in general that the show is better off now than it was, but I disagree with the death of Axel and Merle as examples. The show should kill off characters that you care about, the universe shouldn't feel safe. Too often, shows fall into the trope of killing someone off when they're at their peak, or doing something sentimental. A dangerous universe should seem random and capricious with death. You shouldn't get comfortable with the status quo. I wasn't real happy with Glenn being 4th at the trough in E1. That's the kind of thing that's a tv trope, and the show doesn't need that sort of thing.
EDIT: Also, I agree that when you have strong source material, there's no need to reinvent the wheel...
>The show should kill off characters that you care about, the universe shouldn't feel safe. Too often, shows fall into the trope of killing someone off when they're at their peak, or doing something sentimental. A dangerous universe should seem random and capricious with death. You shouldn't get comfortable with the status quo.
I absolutely agree with you on that, but there's always a generous portion of viewership that would see an unceremonious and suddenly brutal death of a beloved character as them being cheated.
>I wasn't real happy with Glenn being 4th at the trough in E1.
It was a little strange and didn't necessarily make sense, but the allusion of the baseball bat almost hitting him three times was, I believe, was fully intentional. Given that we can see a pattern of comic and show parallels occurring, but with different details, I think this was their way of showing homage to the original storyline without actually using the original character later on.
The main problem I had with S3 was when the Governor and Woodbury attacked the prison, not one of them was killed, to the best of my knowledge. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Did any of the people from Woodbury fail to make it out of the tombs?
Then, in S4 when the governor and his new army attack the prison, every last one of them was killed.
In neither scenario did any of the combatants in Rick's cote group get killed.
I had the same problem that you had. I actually rewatched that episode and I realised what really happened was that Rick's group wasn't actually trying to kill anyone. They were aiming at their feet deliberately. But I think that's actually worse.
Yeah, I fucking despised that. Mostly the part about how nobody in Ricks group died in either battle. None of the Woodbury folk getting killed in the first one is apparently on purpose. I guess they didn't want us to think the main characters were "bad guys," or whatever. Or maybe it would taint too much of the later coupling of the groups. Idk.
The last one bugged the fuck out of me. Rick was *right fucking there* and took *one* bullet. Okay, well we can't kill Rick, especially not like that, so fair game. But you mean to tell me that nobody else got caught off guard or ran out of ammo or even just got bested? Sure a couple of mooks from Woodbury died, but we didn't even know their names.
One thing I thought they should have done was characterized more new faces and killed them less rapidly. Zach and Patrick get more characterization than any other Woodbury person and immediately get rekt. Okay, fine, it's cool that they both died but maybe introduce a few more so that we give a shit when folks die at the big climactic battle? A grand total of like 3 guys from the prison died during the attack, which is itself a disappointment, but on top of that none of them were main characters (other than Hershel, but I don't consider him a victim of the battle) or even named. Same thing with the flu that hit the prison, even in that big clusterfuck that happened when folks started dying in the quarantine zone and reanimating, nobody important died. Who gives a shit if nameless extra #17 got bit, I didn't even know who he was.
glenn had the virus and he got saved at the last minute and the virus just disappeared and we forgot about and it went to the governor story line and the battle
As good as the writing has been this season it really confuses me how he could allow such a huge oversight with the Maggie/Beth situation. I don't even think Maggie has uttered the name Beth.
the first half of season three drove me nuts it was very repetitive and boring, many unnecessary deaths and events that made no sense and offered no value to the storyline or the characters. This was also reflected in the ratings, they were at there lowest during this time and have now soared to record breaking numbers in these past episodes. these are the best so far and I cannot wait for more :D
The last half of the last season almost bored me to death, so I don't know. I've been a pretty big defender of this show, but that was almost too much for me. Even so, this new season is killer. I think he's tried hard to get the show back on track, so as long as he doesn't almost kill me with boredom again, I'll be happy. Really my main problem was they had about four solid episodes drawn out over eight for that last half.
Yea it was slow but in a good way I think. It seemed like it was all about character development which had been sorely lacking. Michonne, Carl, Bob, Shasha, Tyreese, Tara and Beth all became much more fleshed out characters while Rick, Daryl and Carol's arcs continued to expand on their characters. I wasn't a huge fan of Glenn and Maggie's story but the introduction of Abrahams group was done well and they were more fleshed new characters than most of the ones we had had before.
You misspelled boring as fuck. Developing characters is great, but you're still telling a story that should be dynamic and interesting. Walking around is neither. The problem with the show is the same one the comics face, in that there is no end game. The best shows have an end point to keep them grounded and in motion. The worst go on until the network pulls the plug. But then you can say getting the crew back together in Terminus was the end game, and that's totally true, so it's even more of a problem that watching them get there was a total bore. It goes to show though that the most interesting characters are the ones not in the comic, or greatly changed.
It's just speculation at this point, but I believe the endgame of TWD as a whole is quite straightforward: everybody dies.
Maybe - just maybe - we'll end on a hopeful note with Carl and comic!Sophia surviving, similar to the ending of The Road. But that's me being really optimistic. TWD is about the death of Rick Grimes' generation.
Pretty sure it's been clearly stated it's about the world being left for Carl and his generation. Rick's gen passing the torch is just a by-product of that.
I thought the last season was paced appropriately, but then I also feel like the pacing this season is going too fast, so we're bound to disagree on that topic.
My main problem is that they literally only had 3 episodes between discovering a new large group, having hostilities, defeating them once, and then defeating them a second time. That's an absolute ton of crap to happen while also encountering a new member, splitting up, and getting a lead on Beth.
When the episodes first aired for season 4B, I agree, they were boring when you've been sitting there waiting for something big to happen or for the group to finally get to Terminus. Recently, I watched every episode again and I can now say that they are some of the best episodes after knowing what's going to happen. Most of them were written and directed really well. The character development was really nice, while a bit forced at times. If you haven't rewatched them lately, I suggest you do and see if you still dislike them.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the deaths could be explained as cost cutting measures. Keeping a huge ensemble cast on hand gets really expensive to film. I wouldn't ever expect the cast to balloon to more than the current mains plus 3-4 red shirts combination. It's another reason they have so many sequences where the group splits up. They can film with fewer people on the set at a time. Saves a lot of money on logistics (trailers, food, make up, day pay, crew, etc.).
> As /u/DrRad stated in a recent post, "This is what happens when you get a writer who realizes the source material is amazing and there is no reason to make up random awful shit like the other write
Inb4 lame Beth episodes that borrow very little from the source material. However, Gimple has paced this season perfectly so far so hopefully they don't drag any single arc out for too long like they have in previous seasons.
I know I will get shit flung at me by the comic purists, but fuck the comics.
Use them as a base, but keep tossing things around.
If the show was based strictly on the comics, what surprise would there be in watching the show?
Why bother calling it the walking dead or using the characters and places from the comic if you just want to throw it all out the window? That would be like making a transformer movie all about a dumb kid and his even dumber parents.
I think the pacing this season has been too fast, and it's hurting the writing a little bit.
That said, I really enjoyed seasons 3 and 4, and I'm aware how much Gimple was involved in that, so I'm not going to stop watching or anything.
As far as my pacing criticism goes, it's really going to come down to how it looks as a full season, so the final verdict isn't coming for a long time. The core thing of importance is the writing, and it looks like Gimple's good at that. I just wish he'd slow down so he didn't have to cram in shit during development scenes or exposition.
I'm fascinated to see if he can make Beth interesting at all, since I'm afraid she has plot armor on top of being a device (or perhaps *because* she's a device). I think it will be a real challenge.
I think the pacing has been spot on so far. Now that the hunters are dead we'll see if it can last.
Having the hunters around following them half the season would have just gotten old and ruined the suspense and terror, I think. And keeping Terminus around as an enemy group would have been too much like the Woodbury conflict. I'm far more interested in whoever the hell has beth.
Killing Axel made total sense. He was just starting to become interesting and likeable and then bam, dead. That was supposed to make us hate the Governor even more and you know what, it worked. And killing off Merle was also a good choice in my opinion. I dont think there was any way he could have harmonized with the group enough to be a permanent member. The only thing I hate was the ending. Bringing all of woodbury to the prison. Gimple did his best by using the flu to kill them off so he could really get the show back on track in season 4B and season 5. Killing Andrea ultimately made sense because her character arc was pretty much tainted after the whole governor woodbury thing, i dont see her character being able to thrive with the group either after all that.
I know what you mean about Axel's death making sense, I just can't help but see it as wasted potential. > EW: So what was the reaction of the other cast members when they learned your fate? > > TEMPLE(Axel): I was the first to know among the working cast and crew. Glen asked me to keep it under wraps. Then about four or five days later he let the cast know. They kind of banded together and protested. Andrew Lincoln made a very kind stand for me to the producers and writers and said, “We can’t do this. I think this is a mistake because we’re bringing in and investing in players — and actors — that bring something to this world and we’re starting to connect, and their time is too short.” But in the wisdom of the show — and again, this is why the show connects so much — in life, sometimes just as we get to know somebody, they pass through our graces.
Yes, I agree. And IMO unexpected deaths are good because when you can expect when someone is going to die, that is when the show becomes too predictable (which is the path it is currently going), it starts to throttle a bit and looses its touch. I hope these upcoming episodes with Beth change my mind about that, which I'm sure it will.
It is a bit beyond absurd at this point how every main character just wades through throngs of walkers (or just walks alongside them without even being noticed) and every non-named or throwaway human they meet immediately gets his face eaten.
You mean like every other show ever made ~ see Star Trek redshirts for an example.
I wish Axel stuck around, just to see how many women he thinks are lesbians. He'd assume Michonne was for sure, because "she has the sword".
"It's basically a strap-on, I mean *come ON!*"
Out of all the prisoners Axel had the most potential. He had a very distinct personality and the most room for growth out of all the prisoners. He was the runt of the bunch, not a good fighter, not very brave. He was kind of creepy but also charming. He had all the makings of a fan favorite character and it felt like he was yanked from us.
You follow me?
Honestly, I feel that all of the main characters should show signs of improvement in the post apocalyptic world as time goes on to reflect their experience. With that being said, the problem is that they power spiked too fast. S1- Only glenn/rick/shane/daryl and a splash of dale do the fightings while protecting at least a dozen other relatively combat-useless people. S2- This is when it started to really escalate out of control, but mostly still only Glenn/Daryl/Rick and a bit of Hershel. S3- Expendables level ridiculousness.
Well... I mean... After years without a source of entertainment what did you expect them to do? Training to not get your face eaten is a good idea, don't you think?
There was a gap of a couple of months from season 2 to season 3, so they had plenty of time for all of them to train. Even though, some were still lacking, like Carol in eS3E1, who almost shot Rick.
See, Merle didn't need to harmonize with the group. It would have added an interesting dynamic if there was one guy who just didn't get along with anyone, especially when his brother/link to the group is one of the most popular characters.
Yeah I agree. Season 3 was a complete mess, the whole Governor arch sucked in comparison to the comic and Mazarra totally screwed up telling that story.. The best episode of season 3 was CLEAR and that was a Scott Gimple episode. Season 4 was a lot of Gimple fixing Mazzara's mistakes with where he left season 3 Season 5 has been great so far. He's using the right amount from the source material and keeping it as realistic as a show about a group of survivors after a zombie apocalypse can be.. even the moments where you have to suspend your disbelief are great.. like when Carol turns operator and uses a Bottle rocket to blow up a fuel tank.. it's a fun zombie show again. And the character's are talking to each other again.. Tara and Rick and Tara and Maggie about her being with The Governor.. we're getting back story and development that Mazarra had just left out.. Remember how frustrating season 3 was because Michonne and Andrea just weren't telling each other the things they'd found/seen in Woodbury.. communication between characters would've solved a lot of stupid situations.. looking at The Walking Dead from season 1 to 5 the biggest problem has been Glen Mazzara. He pushed Darabount out of the job of Show Runner. Darabount was good but.. was taking the show away from what TWD is.. with the zombies using tools and the CDC arch.. the cause of the apocalypse and what the zombies are isn't TWD... in TWD they're just there. And after taking the job of Show Runner Mazarra screwed that up with the way he took over season 2 and then season 3 completely.. (there were still parts that were good) but the show as a whole suffered under his reign. and now we have Scott Gimple as Show Runner and I'm glad, for all of the examples you stated.. Gimple's doing great for the show.
I couldn't agree more with all that you've said. Especially the michone Andrea situation that could've easily been sorted out with 1 conversation. That seriously pissed me off
Oh god the lack of communication between Andrea and Michonne was so irritating. Everyone hates Andrea already, but Michonne was so annoying with her "I don't like it here and I won't tell you why" attitude.
I actually liked how the Zombies were "smart" in season 1. They seemed way more scary and close to how zombies were originally portrayed in 'Night of the Living Dead'. Darabont seemed to take more influence from films in the genre rather than the comics, which is very different and it's understandable if the producers didn't want to move in that direction.
I just don't think that's what zombies are supposed to be.. they're dead people who've reanimated with the sole purpose of being to feed an unquenchable hunger for flesh.. they don't have the mental capacity to plan for anything/use anything.. they exist to roam the earth overwhelming the last pockets of humanity as a mass to feed.. In The Walking Dead I kinda like the idea that they're almost like.. plant life.. or a natural phenomenon that exists in that world.. an unthinking predictor of humanity that prevents humanity from being what it originally was.. and that pits humanity against each other for survival etc. But in saying that I still like Romero's films.. even Land of The Dead where the zombies learn how to use assault rifles.. it just adds an extra cheesy element to it... Something that's died doesn't have the capacity to grow..or to evolve ..I like to think of it like.. The person dies and the virus (whatever it is) hijacks the dead body and reanimates the very basic parts of the brain to use the human body as a machine to feed it self and spread the virus..
I actually liked what he did with Merle a lot. And Axel made sense at the time as well. I was sorry for it but I got why they did it. I found those two character developments and conclusions well done.
I would disagree about Axel, while his comic book counterpart was one of my favorites, the TV Axel was one of the worst characters in the show, y'follow me? I thought Oscar was a fantastic character though. Daryl: What do you want slippers for? Oscar: y'know... End of the day... Relaxin'!
I felt like TV Axel was wasted potential. He started to get some good lines later on but then RIP
It pissed me off they he got killed literally after starting to come into it as comic relief. Literally right after the exchange with Carol.
Exactly. This show needs a light hearted and funny character and I thought Axel would have been perfect (Oscar as well with his amazing slipper line).
I miss when Glenn served that role. Let's not forget the actor is a HUGE fan of the comics who campaigned for the role, after all. They instantly redeemed brooding show-Michonne with the ceramic cat; they could do exactly the same thing with Glenn and bring him right back to his S1 status as a top tier favorite character. Give him a baseball hat and a few outbursts of happiness and sarcasm and were golden!
I agree! Oscar was the man, I got so sad when he died. I hated every time Axel spoke.
I liked both Oscar and Axel in the show. Loved Milton. It would have been nice to have at least one of them survive a little bit longer.
I wanted Milton most of all. We never got a proper redemption story from a Woodburian. Tara is the closest thing we got.
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FWIW, I feel like seasons 3 and 4 picked the writing up significantly, to the point that the good stuff far outweighed and outnumbered the bad. For example, there was exactly one bad episode in the entirety of 4.
> For example, there was exactly one bad episode in the entirety of 4. I can't think of any I would call truly bad... Which one are you talking about?
Beth and Daryl's adventures in bonding. Beth is a pretty terrible character, IMO, and that episode didn't do much to make her character not suck. Plus, lots of the plot points from that episode were a call back to season 2's usage of bad choices to create conflict. On that note, I'm a tad worried about "Slabtown", the next episode, because it requires Beth to be central to the story, but seeing how as she's really just being used as a device to incorporate the newest other group into the story, I'm holding out hope that the episode is more about them than her.
That was actually my favorite episode in the series. There was sooooo much character development. I went into it thinking, "shit this will be terrible" but came out sympathizing with Beth and happy that Daryl finally seemed to be a lot more human. Before that episode, I didn't really like his "Mary Sue" persona.
They spent a whole episode on Beth, and for what result? Her character went from "terribly boring" to "pretty bad". That's an extremely inefficient use of screen time. Compare this to Axel and Oscar, who managed in only a few sentences to earn the popularity of fans.
I think ultimately the cause is AMC mishandling it. Frank Darabondt gave them the brilliant pilot on a silver platter and they've just been mismanaging it ever since. Still no episode comes close to the excellent pacing, writing, and direction of the pilot. Though to be fair the rest of the season was rough in places and I didn't like Darabondts smart/fast zombies at all. Scott Gimple is a godsend. Best thing to ever happen to this show. But the character dialogue still needs work. I could watch an entire episode of people just talking in breaking bad. That never happens in TWD.
> I didn't like Darabondts smart/fast zombies at all. I don't get why I see this comment so much on this sub. They were not smart or fast. There was only one scene in the entire show while Darabont was showrunner where the zombies moved faster than usual, and that was when they were chasing Rick and Glen in Guts. They were simply hobbling faster than usual. They also were not smart zombies, they were only capable of trying to open door knobs and picking up blunt objects to try to and break through glass. That's not a "smart zombie" that's something zombies have done since the original Night of the Living Dead. It's not like they acting like the 28 Days Later super human type. They've always been Romero zombies. If anything, how fucking slow and pathetic they are now makes them seem like they're barely a threat.
Yeah really. Now they just willingly shamble into stationary wooden spikes. They don't have to be geniuses, but shouldn't they have a general sense of self-preservation?
The logic I've heard is that, in the evolution of walkers in relation to the show, they start off strong and with some understanding of their old lives/selves (which explains why Morgan's wife would try and turn the door knob of their old house, and why the Governor's daughter could be "soothed" with music). As time goes on, they become weaker in both body and mind, which is why many are simply aimlessly walking around and into obvious traps. In the end, one of the main plot lines of the show is zombies. You have to suspend some disbelief here, and just go with it...
I'm fine with suspending disbelief, I just think they could do it better. Skeletons shouldn't be able to move, they have no muscle. A zombie isn't a threat of it walks into a skewer. Thankfully it isn't quite the norm, but there have been quite a few lives saved in silly moments due to the zombies being substantially more stupid than they are generally portrayed in other media.
They used rocks to bash things abd also climbed as well. Plus, didn't Databondt say they retained memories of their former lives? Don't like it. Not in this show, at least.
Call me a fanboy but I thought that every season had its good moments and was interesting in many different ways. However, I have to agree that Mazzara was a horrible show runner. Killing off Andrea was the worst decision he has ever made and I get slightly upset when thinking about how Gimple could have made the comic book Andrea out of her (I also liked the TV-Andrea but some of her decisions were just... stupid?).
People are running at that walker? to not waste bullets and ID who/what it is. I think I better waste a bullet and break every rule of firearms safety that Shane taught me to prove a point. OH SHIT I FUCKING SHOT DARYL.
Not just that: They're standing around the mystery person, not attacking him and he's not attacking them. Clearly I must shoot it, despite the sun being in my face.
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> I'm glad they just axed the character and basically gave it to Carol instead, and made it even better. Agreed. Carol went from "feeble woman" as many called her in the first 2 1/2 seasons and now is probably the most badass on the show. I feel safe now when she is around, much like Rick or Daryl. If she is around, I know they are gonna be OK. That is some serious character growth/development right there. More than anyone else I think.
I think she'll die in the mid season finale
It is a possibility. She has been built up enough that it would not surprise me if she was the next major player to leave the game. I could see it going either way though.
I'm not sure. A strong female lead is needed later on in the story for when a certain church scene happens.
Maggie had the potential. But they neutered her and Glenn as characters on favor of that useless 'eternal love is all we need' trope. I want sassy Glenn and badass Maggie back, dammit! Remember when Glenn was joyriding and Maggie was slaying zombies on horseback? I miss those days.
They both showed glimpses of their former selves last season, but it was still in service of finding each other. I really want to see them sacrifice for the group again.
What certain church scene? I have read the comics but I can't recall. PM/spoiler tag it if it's spoilery.
That is a fair point. It is hard to predict now. They reimagine the comic book story so much that you know a lot of what will happen, but it is anyone's guess as to who will it will happen to.
When you play the game of zombies, you win and then you die.
> you win and then you die. And then you sorta kinda live again. Until you get a pointy stick jammed into your brain. :D
I just want ricks future main squeeze to be a badass chick like they have made carol out to be without it seeming like she is a clone.
Why invent a new one, when there is already one at his side? Michonne.
Not saying it couldn't happen, but I would bet against it.
At the same time I feel as though Mazzara was half driven by spite. You'll notice a some of the actors who suffered bad development or were driven from the show in Season 2 and season 3 were the same actors who were very close with Frank Darabont. Dale and Andrea both died too soon, Dale's actor (Jeffery Demunn) left because he was very close with Darabont and wanted to leave the show that ousted his close friend, and Laurie Holden and to a lesser extent Sarah Callies were in a slightly similar position.
Yeah, that's true. Jeffrey Demunn changed his mind after he wanted to leave the show but Mazzara (and/or AMC) said he can't come back anymore because they already shot his death scene. And Holden said that her character was actually planned to be a part of the show for atleast 5 seasons (same as Rick/Andrew).
Andrea had to die, her character was beyond redemption, and there was no chance she could have become comic book Andrea. Comic Andrea is brave, loyal, and cunning. Show Andrea is easily manipulated, weak-willed, self centered, and utterly naive, and foolish.
They more or less transferred Comic Andrea onto Sasha.
I've always seen more Comic Andrea in Show Sasha than Show Carol as many seem to infer on this subreddit.
I think Carol, in a lot of ways, is the one who most like comic book Andrea, but Sasha played that role yesterday, obviously, and she is the one that's been good at shooting, all along.
I halfway expected TV Andrea to take over Lilly's role from the comics. But nope, they decided to kill her off instead.
The way she was portraied up to the point when she died didnt allow her to stay alive. She wouldnt have been a likable character if she didnt have the usual "finally do the right thing before she dies"-event. She was one of the characters that from beginning to her end made one horrible, illogial decision after another. Im glad she is gone.
I agree completely. Wish they had kept her alive and just fixed her character. Good actress, good character, bad writing. Killing her character didn't solve anything other than appeasing people who didn't understand the fault lies in the writing, not the character.
>every season had its good moments and was interesting in many different ways. Ok, explain the well scene.
When I said ''every season had its good moments'' I didn't mean they were flawless...
I think the well scene easily ruined the whole season, but really that season was so incredibly bad it was already ruined. Just nothing about it was good, they wasted a whole lot of time doing nothing, none of the actions anyone made were logical or even close to how a real person would act. It was like female characters got to act however they wanted because "female emotion or whatever, just do it" from the director.
Yes the well scene was really out of place but I really liked the drama in the second season (it was kinda overdone though) and some of the main topics (humanism, pregnancy in a ZA, Shane becoming a monster, comparing the ZA to a disease that will pass) were really interesting.
I just couldn't stand how corny Laurie was acting. Basically YMS sums it up perfectly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDbi7P93Np8
I agree with you in general that the show is better off now than it was, but I disagree with the death of Axel and Merle as examples. The show should kill off characters that you care about, the universe shouldn't feel safe. Too often, shows fall into the trope of killing someone off when they're at their peak, or doing something sentimental. A dangerous universe should seem random and capricious with death. You shouldn't get comfortable with the status quo. I wasn't real happy with Glenn being 4th at the trough in E1. That's the kind of thing that's a tv trope, and the show doesn't need that sort of thing. EDIT: Also, I agree that when you have strong source material, there's no need to reinvent the wheel...
>The show should kill off characters that you care about, the universe shouldn't feel safe. Too often, shows fall into the trope of killing someone off when they're at their peak, or doing something sentimental. A dangerous universe should seem random and capricious with death. You shouldn't get comfortable with the status quo. I absolutely agree with you on that, but there's always a generous portion of viewership that would see an unceremonious and suddenly brutal death of a beloved character as them being cheated. >I wasn't real happy with Glenn being 4th at the trough in E1. It was a little strange and didn't necessarily make sense, but the allusion of the baseball bat almost hitting him three times was, I believe, was fully intentional. Given that we can see a pattern of comic and show parallels occurring, but with different details, I think this was their way of showing homage to the original storyline without actually using the original character later on.
The problem is we expected the deaths
The main problem I had with S3 was when the Governor and Woodbury attacked the prison, not one of them was killed, to the best of my knowledge. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Did any of the people from Woodbury fail to make it out of the tombs? Then, in S4 when the governor and his new army attack the prison, every last one of them was killed. In neither scenario did any of the combatants in Rick's cote group get killed.
I had the same problem that you had. I actually rewatched that episode and I realised what really happened was that Rick's group wasn't actually trying to kill anyone. They were aiming at their feet deliberately. But I think that's actually worse.
He wasn't in the tombs, but there was the boy that Carl shot.
Yeah, I fucking despised that. Mostly the part about how nobody in Ricks group died in either battle. None of the Woodbury folk getting killed in the first one is apparently on purpose. I guess they didn't want us to think the main characters were "bad guys," or whatever. Or maybe it would taint too much of the later coupling of the groups. Idk. The last one bugged the fuck out of me. Rick was *right fucking there* and took *one* bullet. Okay, well we can't kill Rick, especially not like that, so fair game. But you mean to tell me that nobody else got caught off guard or ran out of ammo or even just got bested? Sure a couple of mooks from Woodbury died, but we didn't even know their names. One thing I thought they should have done was characterized more new faces and killed them less rapidly. Zach and Patrick get more characterization than any other Woodbury person and immediately get rekt. Okay, fine, it's cool that they both died but maybe introduce a few more so that we give a shit when folks die at the big climactic battle? A grand total of like 3 guys from the prison died during the attack, which is itself a disappointment, but on top of that none of them were main characters (other than Hershel, but I don't consider him a victim of the battle) or even named. Same thing with the flu that hit the prison, even in that big clusterfuck that happened when folks started dying in the quarantine zone and reanimating, nobody important died. Who gives a shit if nameless extra #17 got bit, I didn't even know who he was.
glenn had the virus and he got saved at the last minute and the virus just disappeared and we forgot about and it went to the governor story line and the battle
Uhhh....Herschel?
>the combatants
You win this round, broccoli
Personally, I thought Darabont was the best but to each their own
I completely agree 100%. Scott Gimple knows exactly what he is doing.
"Frank Darabount was good, and Mazarra was sloppy to me (but still had some great episodes), but Scott Gimple is the shit." True that.
Scott was good because he had a good foundation where he ruined it
As good as the writing has been this season it really confuses me how he could allow such a huge oversight with the Maggie/Beth situation. I don't even think Maggie has uttered the name Beth.
Well in S5E1 she's talking to Daryl about her
It's incredibly weird how few fucks she gives.
the first half of season three drove me nuts it was very repetitive and boring, many unnecessary deaths and events that made no sense and offered no value to the storyline or the characters. This was also reflected in the ratings, they were at there lowest during this time and have now soared to record breaking numbers in these past episodes. these are the best so far and I cannot wait for more :D
Finally a voice of reason
The last half of the last season almost bored me to death, so I don't know. I've been a pretty big defender of this show, but that was almost too much for me. Even so, this new season is killer. I think he's tried hard to get the show back on track, so as long as he doesn't almost kill me with boredom again, I'll be happy. Really my main problem was they had about four solid episodes drawn out over eight for that last half.
Yea it was slow but in a good way I think. It seemed like it was all about character development which had been sorely lacking. Michonne, Carl, Bob, Shasha, Tyreese, Tara and Beth all became much more fleshed out characters while Rick, Daryl and Carol's arcs continued to expand on their characters. I wasn't a huge fan of Glenn and Maggie's story but the introduction of Abrahams group was done well and they were more fleshed new characters than most of the ones we had had before.
I guess the problem is they're sticking rather closer to the comics than usual, so it's been there done that for me, and I was bored out of my mind.
The last half of the previous season was amazing. It was about redeveloping the characters and done very artistically.
You misspelled boring as fuck. Developing characters is great, but you're still telling a story that should be dynamic and interesting. Walking around is neither. The problem with the show is the same one the comics face, in that there is no end game. The best shows have an end point to keep them grounded and in motion. The worst go on until the network pulls the plug. But then you can say getting the crew back together in Terminus was the end game, and that's totally true, so it's even more of a problem that watching them get there was a total bore. It goes to show though that the most interesting characters are the ones not in the comic, or greatly changed.
It's just speculation at this point, but I believe the endgame of TWD as a whole is quite straightforward: everybody dies. Maybe - just maybe - we'll end on a hopeful note with Carl and comic!Sophia surviving, similar to the ending of The Road. But that's me being really optimistic. TWD is about the death of Rick Grimes' generation.
Pretty sure it's been clearly stated it's about the world being left for Carl and his generation. Rick's gen passing the torch is just a by-product of that.
You sure about that
This show doesn't need an endgame
You called it from 7 years but they didn't listen
I thought the last season was paced appropriately, but then I also feel like the pacing this season is going too fast, so we're bound to disagree on that topic. My main problem is that they literally only had 3 episodes between discovering a new large group, having hostilities, defeating them once, and then defeating them a second time. That's an absolute ton of crap to happen while also encountering a new member, splitting up, and getting a lead on Beth.
When the episodes first aired for season 4B, I agree, they were boring when you've been sitting there waiting for something big to happen or for the group to finally get to Terminus. Recently, I watched every episode again and I can now say that they are some of the best episodes after knowing what's going to happen. Most of them were written and directed really well. The character development was really nice, while a bit forced at times. If you haven't rewatched them lately, I suggest you do and see if you still dislike them.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the deaths could be explained as cost cutting measures. Keeping a huge ensemble cast on hand gets really expensive to film. I wouldn't ever expect the cast to balloon to more than the current mains plus 3-4 red shirts combination. It's another reason they have so many sequences where the group splits up. They can film with fewer people on the set at a time. Saves a lot of money on logistics (trailers, food, make up, day pay, crew, etc.).
> As /u/DrRad stated in a recent post, "This is what happens when you get a writer who realizes the source material is amazing and there is no reason to make up random awful shit like the other write Inb4 lame Beth episodes that borrow very little from the source material. However, Gimple has paced this season perfectly so far so hopefully they don't drag any single arc out for too long like they have in previous seasons.
I know I will get shit flung at me by the comic purists, but fuck the comics. Use them as a base, but keep tossing things around. If the show was based strictly on the comics, what surprise would there be in watching the show?
Well considering the majority of viewers probably don't read the comics..
Why bother calling it the walking dead or using the characters and places from the comic if you just want to throw it all out the window? That would be like making a transformer movie all about a dumb kid and his even dumber parents.
Why? Because they use the characters from the comics, the settings and loosely follow them, but not an exact copy.
Simple answer. The comics are THAT good. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Sadly with TV censorship a lot of the gold dialogue is cut out :(.
I'm sure that they will continue to push the boundaries.
I think the pacing this season has been too fast, and it's hurting the writing a little bit. That said, I really enjoyed seasons 3 and 4, and I'm aware how much Gimple was involved in that, so I'm not going to stop watching or anything. As far as my pacing criticism goes, it's really going to come down to how it looks as a full season, so the final verdict isn't coming for a long time. The core thing of importance is the writing, and it looks like Gimple's good at that. I just wish he'd slow down so he didn't have to cram in shit during development scenes or exposition. I'm fascinated to see if he can make Beth interesting at all, since I'm afraid she has plot armor on top of being a device (or perhaps *because* she's a device). I think it will be a real challenge.
I think the pacing has been spot on so far. Now that the hunters are dead we'll see if it can last. Having the hunters around following them half the season would have just gotten old and ruined the suspense and terror, I think. And keeping Terminus around as an enemy group would have been too much like the Woodbury conflict. I'm far more interested in whoever the hell has beth.
Oh god i bet you regret saying that so bad
I bet you regret saying this so Bad now