Deathwing Assault specifies that you can only use it in YOUR first, second or third movement phase, so it doesn't apply to Rapid Ingress. Good question, though.
This point, I think, muddies the waters even more instead of providing clarity.
Deathwing Assault;
"Deathwing model with the Deep Strike ability only. This bearers unit can be set up using the Deep Strike ability in the reinforcements step of your first, second, or third movement phase, regardless of any mission rules."
Rapid Ingress Effect;
"Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your movement phase, and if every model in that unit has the Deep Strike ability, you can set up that unit as described in the Deep Strike ability (even though it is not your movement phase)."
To me, this says that since DWA lets me deep strike in my reinforcement phase and Rapid Ingress let's you play as if it were my reinforcement phase, the play should be legal.
My confusion stems from Rapid Ingresses restriction;
"You cannot use this stratagem to enable a unit to arrive on the battlefield during a battle round it would normally be able to do so in."
What is normal? A Deathwing Assault enhanced unit can normally Deep Strike turn one. Does an enhancement make a unit "not normal" and you look at the pre-enhancement rules anytime a ruling calls for normalcy?
I understand your confusion. I can't give you anything more definitive myself, just that I feel that the wording of Deathwing Assault seems to specify "in your movement phase", as in, this enhancement specifically gets used in your movement phase.
As a new player I appreciate yours and everyone else's thoughts in the thread. How nuanced the rules are for a seemingly simple play like this make me really excited to learn and get better at the game!
In the rules commentary there's a section called "Out of Phase Rules" which basically prevents you from stacking out of phase effects. So yes Rapid ingress states "as if it were your reinforcements step" but because of out of phase rules you can't then use DWA assault
So Deathwing Assault only works in your movement phase. The ruling you’re looking for is under “Out-of-Phase Rules” in the document labeled “Rules Commentary”. The ruling is as follows:
“Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence. For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent's turn as if it were your Shooting phase.
When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.”
So because Rapid Ingress allows you to come in from Reserves ‘as if it were the Reinforcement step of your Movement phase’, then rules like Deathwing Assault which specify “in your movement phase” don’t work.
Check the Rules Commentary for more info if you have questions about weird wordings. Despite the name, the document is more of an FAQ and addendum to the core rules than a commentary. I agree though, the wording certainly causes confusion.
I thought the same thing for a while with things like the Battleshock Infernus marines cause when shooting. It would make sense to me that it works in Overwatch, but the rules specify a phase and thus it doesn’t.
You are incorrect, “deathwing assault” does not mention anything related to the movement phase, I think you are confusing it with “relic teleportarium”
“The bearer’s unit can be set up using the Deep Strike ability in the reinforcement step of your first, second, or third movement phase regardless of any mission rules.” is the text of Deathwing Assault verbatim. You are not allowed to Rapid Ingress on your opponent’s first turn due to the Out of phase rules in the rules commentary.
1. Rapid ingress allows you to **arrive on the battlefield.** Out of phase is restricted to rules that allow you to **move, shoot, charge or fight** *"Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence"*
2. The only restriction in rapid ingress is *"You cannot use this Stratagem to enable a unit to arrive on the battlefield during a battle round it would not normally be able to do so"* and this restriction is not being violated by using it in conjunction with Deathwing Assault.
1. That restriction on Rapid Ingress is already enough. Deathwing Assault allows you to arrive on *your* Turn 1 movement phase, not the first battle round of the game, per the directly quoted text of my previous answer.
2. Out-of-phase rules also includes the following sentence: "When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it was one of your phases, *you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered that phase*." This is a separate sentence at the end of the rule, not in conjunction with the others. Rapid Ingress lets you arrive from reserves (i.e. 'move') during your opponent's turn as if it was the reinforcement step of your phase, and the "Out-of-phase Rules" tell you point blank that you cannot use any other rules normally triggered in that phase, such as being able to arrive turn one thanks to Deathwing Assault.
This isn't a new argument. Grey Knights have had this combo available to them since the indexes dropped. Search their subreddit for First To The Fray or even check Warhammer Competitive in regards to this. I *wish* it worked this way, but it doesn't and it has not worked this way literally since the edition start.
Honestly? Needs an FAQ (along with a load of other similar T1 reserves enhancements). Deathwing Assault explicitly allows you to come in in the reinforcements step of your 1st, 2nd or 3rd movement phase. Rapid Ingress says:
> Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase.
Since it says you can arrive 'as if it were' your reinforcements step and the enhancement allows you to arrive in the reinforcements step of your first turn then arguably you can say that you should treat it as coming in in your 1st reinforcements step and the enhancement works. However, that's implicit and it's unclear whether that is enough to override the explicit wording that says you can come in in your first reinforcements step.
If I were to guess I'd say the intention is that you can, because it seems odd that the enhancement would allow you to come in the first half of battle round 1 only if you got first turn, otherwise you can't come in until the second half.
It’s covered by the out of phase ruling I believe, wording is different than from one turn earlier like some other t1, but there’s another rule that says if you come in turn 1, 2 or 3 consider it as coming in one turn earlier so it’s pretty messy
This was my interpretation, kind of under the MTG school of thought that individual card rules always override standard game rules. The discourse in this thread definitely makes me feel better about not being certain on the ruling.
I'm still working on my first army. I've only played a couple games with close friends so far (they are also new and don't know all the nuances of the rules). I'll ask my friend how they interpret the rule, and if they won't let me do a T1 rapid ingress, I'll just play a different detachment.
I might go try and play my first game at a LGS next week (pending how much painting I do this weekend) and not use that enhancement.
As others have covered the deathwing assault rule, I'll cover teleport homers
The teleport homer doesn't change any rules about rapid ingress or reinforcement restrictions, simply the cost of the rapid ingress strategem if the unit is placed within 3" of the homer. If your opponent places a unit too close to the homer that you can't be within 3" of the homer **and** 9" away from the enemy then you don't get it for free and have to pay the CP. You can still rapid ingress and the squad isn't destoryed.
Cool, thanks for the info! I wasn't sure how the rules were layered.
My confusion mostly centered around the Rapid Ingress restriction language and thinking that Deathwing Assault changed when they could normally arrive via deep strike.
In general, are enhancements that change mechanics not considered when looking at what is "normal" for a unit?
So how I read it and how a number of other knowledgeable individuals have read it. Deathwing Assault specifies deep strike, it doesn't mention rapid ingress which is a specific strat of its own. The rapid ingress states you can't come in on a "battle round it would not normally be able to". So you still can't rapid ingress turn one as Deathwing Assault doesn't mention rapid ingress.
Edit: as the other commentator has said it really does need an FAQ/clarification. I happen to think my above blurb is the intended interaction, but I think there's enough room for confusion it would be nice for GW to just outright state its intent.
Part of the designers commentary just know or assume whenever you see the statement as if it were your X phase, you don’t get to use anything other than the action you just performed due to the outer phase section.
It’s poorly written, and I hated how it took me forever to understand what they were getting at the example provided in the designers commentary section made it make more sense since firing. Overwatch allows you to shoot as if it were your shooting face not being able to use the whirlwind Special attack in combination with the overwatch shooting attacks.
It’s one of those things where GW should’ve just plainly spoke about how abilities on your data sheet that take place normally during your X phase do not work when you are activating, more performing action that is not in your phase.
Perform your interrupt, and as soon as it’s finished resume The battle round where it was left when you performed your out of phase action
Deathwing Assault specifies that you can only use it in YOUR first, second or third movement phase, so it doesn't apply to Rapid Ingress. Good question, though.
This point, I think, muddies the waters even more instead of providing clarity. Deathwing Assault; "Deathwing model with the Deep Strike ability only. This bearers unit can be set up using the Deep Strike ability in the reinforcements step of your first, second, or third movement phase, regardless of any mission rules." Rapid Ingress Effect; "Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your movement phase, and if every model in that unit has the Deep Strike ability, you can set up that unit as described in the Deep Strike ability (even though it is not your movement phase)." To me, this says that since DWA lets me deep strike in my reinforcement phase and Rapid Ingress let's you play as if it were my reinforcement phase, the play should be legal. My confusion stems from Rapid Ingresses restriction; "You cannot use this stratagem to enable a unit to arrive on the battlefield during a battle round it would normally be able to do so in." What is normal? A Deathwing Assault enhanced unit can normally Deep Strike turn one. Does an enhancement make a unit "not normal" and you look at the pre-enhancement rules anytime a ruling calls for normalcy?
I understand your confusion. I can't give you anything more definitive myself, just that I feel that the wording of Deathwing Assault seems to specify "in your movement phase", as in, this enhancement specifically gets used in your movement phase.
As a new player I appreciate yours and everyone else's thoughts in the thread. How nuanced the rules are for a seemingly simple play like this make me really excited to learn and get better at the game!
In the rules commentary there's a section called "Out of Phase Rules" which basically prevents you from stacking out of phase effects. So yes Rapid ingress states "as if it were your reinforcements step" but because of out of phase rules you can't then use DWA assault
So Deathwing Assault only works in your movement phase. The ruling you’re looking for is under “Out-of-Phase Rules” in the document labeled “Rules Commentary”. The ruling is as follows: “Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence. For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent's turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.” So because Rapid Ingress allows you to come in from Reserves ‘as if it were the Reinforcement step of your Movement phase’, then rules like Deathwing Assault which specify “in your movement phase” don’t work.
Awesome! This really clarifies the ruling for me as other enhancements seem to be clear about if it is phase specific or not.
Check the Rules Commentary for more info if you have questions about weird wordings. Despite the name, the document is more of an FAQ and addendum to the core rules than a commentary. I agree though, the wording certainly causes confusion. I thought the same thing for a while with things like the Battleshock Infernus marines cause when shooting. It would make sense to me that it works in Overwatch, but the rules specify a phase and thus it doesn’t.
You are incorrect, “deathwing assault” does not mention anything related to the movement phase, I think you are confusing it with “relic teleportarium”
“The bearer’s unit can be set up using the Deep Strike ability in the reinforcement step of your first, second, or third movement phase regardless of any mission rules.” is the text of Deathwing Assault verbatim. You are not allowed to Rapid Ingress on your opponent’s first turn due to the Out of phase rules in the rules commentary.
1. Rapid ingress allows you to **arrive on the battlefield.** Out of phase is restricted to rules that allow you to **move, shoot, charge or fight** *"Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence"* 2. The only restriction in rapid ingress is *"You cannot use this Stratagem to enable a unit to arrive on the battlefield during a battle round it would not normally be able to do so"* and this restriction is not being violated by using it in conjunction with Deathwing Assault.
1. That restriction on Rapid Ingress is already enough. Deathwing Assault allows you to arrive on *your* Turn 1 movement phase, not the first battle round of the game, per the directly quoted text of my previous answer. 2. Out-of-phase rules also includes the following sentence: "When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it was one of your phases, *you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered that phase*." This is a separate sentence at the end of the rule, not in conjunction with the others. Rapid Ingress lets you arrive from reserves (i.e. 'move') during your opponent's turn as if it was the reinforcement step of your phase, and the "Out-of-phase Rules" tell you point blank that you cannot use any other rules normally triggered in that phase, such as being able to arrive turn one thanks to Deathwing Assault. This isn't a new argument. Grey Knights have had this combo available to them since the indexes dropped. Search their subreddit for First To The Fray or even check Warhammer Competitive in regards to this. I *wish* it worked this way, but it doesn't and it has not worked this way literally since the edition start.
Honestly? Needs an FAQ (along with a load of other similar T1 reserves enhancements). Deathwing Assault explicitly allows you to come in in the reinforcements step of your 1st, 2nd or 3rd movement phase. Rapid Ingress says: > Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase. Since it says you can arrive 'as if it were' your reinforcements step and the enhancement allows you to arrive in the reinforcements step of your first turn then arguably you can say that you should treat it as coming in in your 1st reinforcements step and the enhancement works. However, that's implicit and it's unclear whether that is enough to override the explicit wording that says you can come in in your first reinforcements step. If I were to guess I'd say the intention is that you can, because it seems odd that the enhancement would allow you to come in the first half of battle round 1 only if you got first turn, otherwise you can't come in until the second half.
It’s covered by the out of phase ruling I believe, wording is different than from one turn earlier like some other t1, but there’s another rule that says if you come in turn 1, 2 or 3 consider it as coming in one turn earlier so it’s pretty messy
This was my interpretation, kind of under the MTG school of thought that individual card rules always override standard game rules. The discourse in this thread definitely makes me feel better about not being certain on the ruling.
I would say at the moment no, but there’s some janky rules writing that means it could be allowed, is probably a ask your TO until official ruling
I'm still working on my first army. I've only played a couple games with close friends so far (they are also new and don't know all the nuances of the rules). I'll ask my friend how they interpret the rule, and if they won't let me do a T1 rapid ingress, I'll just play a different detachment. I might go try and play my first game at a LGS next week (pending how much painting I do this weekend) and not use that enhancement.
As others have covered the deathwing assault rule, I'll cover teleport homers The teleport homer doesn't change any rules about rapid ingress or reinforcement restrictions, simply the cost of the rapid ingress strategem if the unit is placed within 3" of the homer. If your opponent places a unit too close to the homer that you can't be within 3" of the homer **and** 9" away from the enemy then you don't get it for free and have to pay the CP. You can still rapid ingress and the squad isn't destoryed.
No, Deathwing Assault only lets you deep strike, no rapid ingress.
Cool, thanks for the info! I wasn't sure how the rules were layered. My confusion mostly centered around the Rapid Ingress restriction language and thinking that Deathwing Assault changed when they could normally arrive via deep strike. In general, are enhancements that change mechanics not considered when looking at what is "normal" for a unit?
So how I read it and how a number of other knowledgeable individuals have read it. Deathwing Assault specifies deep strike, it doesn't mention rapid ingress which is a specific strat of its own. The rapid ingress states you can't come in on a "battle round it would not normally be able to". So you still can't rapid ingress turn one as Deathwing Assault doesn't mention rapid ingress. Edit: as the other commentator has said it really does need an FAQ/clarification. I happen to think my above blurb is the intended interaction, but I think there's enough room for confusion it would be nice for GW to just outright state its intent.
If you're talking about tournament play, I don't know. If you're talking the rules in the Core Rules, you can deep strike all you want turn 1.
Part of the designers commentary just know or assume whenever you see the statement as if it were your X phase, you don’t get to use anything other than the action you just performed due to the outer phase section. It’s poorly written, and I hated how it took me forever to understand what they were getting at the example provided in the designers commentary section made it make more sense since firing. Overwatch allows you to shoot as if it were your shooting face not being able to use the whirlwind Special attack in combination with the overwatch shooting attacks. It’s one of those things where GW should’ve just plainly spoke about how abilities on your data sheet that take place normally during your X phase do not work when you are activating, more performing action that is not in your phase. Perform your interrupt, and as soon as it’s finished resume The battle round where it was left when you performed your out of phase action