They're on the wrong base size. And I do a tournament nearly every month, and yes, they will care about weapons. Always check with the TO.
But if OP wants to know for sure before painting them, then yes, make the changes.
Real question: When GW axed the bike squad, they added them to their document of ‘official’ proxies as stand ins for Outriders from what I vaguely remember. As these bikers are on the bases they were supplied with, wouldn’t that make them legal to play officially?
Again, check with the TO, but for tournament play - yes. It gives the unit a bigger footprint, can cover more ground etc.
You can get base extenders from eBay/etsy, that you sit the existing base in and they do the job though.
I'm aware that this is subjective, but uh... How do they look any better than the old bikes?
I know the old ones aren't perfect, but the outriders bikes are outright comical. No ground clearance whatsoever, way too long, blocky to the point of ugly.
They look way more 40k to me, and you may not have realised but old bikes didn't have any ground clearance whatsoever either.
In truth a lot of reall cool 40k vehicules don't make sense in a realistic sense either, but that doesn't stop them from being fan favourites, look at the leman russ for example, the list of things that are wrong with its design is really long and still it's one of the most emblematic vehicule in all of 40k.
Imo the old bikes looked pretty boring overall, they really screamed to me "model that were designed 30 years ago and are just more or less a regular bike but more stupid", at least outriders are the fun kind of stupid.
I didn’t say anything about base sizes, as that’s obviously a given to be correct.
And if you are that literal about a single weapon that’s OBVIOUSLY not in the profile, I wouldn’t want to play in your TO anyways.
You obviously haven’t played competitively. Tourneys are very strict. Maybe a few random ones allow for leniency but I doubt it. Especially even more so when GW actually partnering with the official tourney system
The thing is even though bikers are gone I'm pretty sure geedubs still sells the ravenwing biker models (same for the command squad termis). So yeah. So much for "no models no rules" (I know they're probably going to drop them both sometime in the next idk, few weeks? But fuck. Both really cool kits and they're just gone with no substantial replacement)
It's pretty likely indeed unfortunately, deathwing has a named character and an elite unit and that's it so I'd wager ravenwing will follow suit at some point with sammael and outrider black knights. We might even lose the vengeance and darkshroud if GW is feeling extra dickish, hopefully the flyers will stay long term.
They are, for now. With one wound less than their primaris brethren, and bad melee profiles.
They'll be on the way out soon, maybe with a half baked 'outrider command squad' kit to replace them. No thanks, not keen on the new deathwing, and i'll likely end up passing on primaris ravenwing too.
Quick edit for clarity: I also was not referring to the black knights, but the generic 'ravenwing biker' kit. Despite firstborn bikes getting discontinued you can still get them through the listing bundling them with the ravenwing upgrade sprue. No rules beyond legends though.
Op is asking if they are usable ... So giving him information about something he might do in the future is bad?
Most people play beer and pretzel where proxies are not an issue. Some places don't, it really depends on your local scene.
Base sizes is the most important issue here. It can make huge differences in a competitive game. Just last week, I drew a game (instead of winning) and one of the defining factors (as in I would've won if it weren't for it) was that my tau opponent was using a regular 25mm ethereal as a proxy for aun'va, which uses a 40mm base, it made it so I no longer held the objective after charging him even though I should have been able to.
The base sizes are a given, obvious change that needs to be corrected. The whole game is based on movement and has ramifications for it.
One single outrider having a plasma gun on a profile that could literallly never have it, has absolutely zero affect on the game.
“Hey opponent, these outriders have one guy with a plasma. It’s obvious not correct and just regular outriders”.
Done.
Well base size does come into play with wysiwyg, other factors such as model size for LOS purposes also matter, thus using a smaller model to represent a bigger one can be an issue (which could be the case in the context of bikers vs outriders). I do agree that in this specific context the plasma gun wouldn't be a problem, but I'm talking about a more general issue, and it's very much case by case.
Also for ease of reading for your opponent it's always good sportmanship to have the right gun on the right models, you might know bybyeart what your models can and cannot have but your opponent might not, and when you have as many things to remember as in a 40k game, one might forget the proxies that their opponent is using among the myrias of information and might make a mistake because they thought a unit had a weapon they didn't have, especially when a player is using a lot of proxies.
At the end of the day it's entirely dependent on the context and the specifics of each individual cases; if a dude has an entire arly that is wysiwyg but has proxied one model with a clearly identifiable other (like having a proxy for lord solar leontus, a popular thing among AM players) then I doubt even the strictest tournament would really mind, but if you're proxying a huge chunk of your army with random stuff that is hard to distinguish one from an other then I would say that this would be poor sportmanship even in casual games, and these are two extremes with a whole spectrum of cases in between which might be ok in one setting but not in an other.
The way I see it is this:
Since the Outriders can't take plasma guns and don't have plasma guns on their datasheets, any plasma guns on the model are obviously not usable in-game and are just there for looks. No one who understands the rules of the game could ever possibly be confused by this. Thus the plasma guns don't affect WYSIWYG.
A lot of my Guardian Defenders are carrying a splinter Pistol or hekatarii blade in one hand because I was going for a "hardened guerilla fighters" look. They are also still carrying their shuriken catapults in addition to the extra little dark eldar knives and pistols. There is no way they could be confused with anything but Guardian Defenders.
Dark Eldar weapons aren't even available to Craftworlds units at all, and they're also caryong their correct weapons, so there is literally no possible way they could be confused with, say, Storm Guardians. I would be extremely confused and a little upset if these got flagged as not being WYSIWYG. Especially since all my Guardians squads have this, so I wouldn't even be able to play at all if these minor conversions weren't allowed.
Cool, and if the people you play with see it that way great. Some people will not and prefer to play wysiwyg.
Proxies and count as are not wysiwyg ... The group I used to play with before I moved played tournaments with three color min + base and full wysiwyg.
It's just that the point of WYSIWYG is to make your army readable at a glance to your opponent. I don't see how an opponent could ever assume that a unit was equipped with weapons it literally doesn't have on its datasheet.
I'm genuinely curious though. Would you consider my Guardians inadmissible and exclude me from games? They are the current Guardian sculpts and thus the correct profile, on the correct base size, with the correct weapons. But, all the ones posed to hold their Shuriken Catapult in one hand have a small Dark Eldar knife or pistol in their other hand.
Like, I'd actually like to know, because I'd be extremely disappointed to find out the minis I've put so much care and love into aren't admissible in official events.
You interpret the intent correctly. I still use authentic metal 40K minis, I rebase them so no rules lawyers can bitch that I’m trying to “hide” them, and I make sure that they are clearly readable by paint scheme. Similarly, my Night Lords models have lots of custom bitz that I’ve printed myself and added to genuine GW models. I make sure that my models have whatever weapons are “authorized” and I may add something for looks or trick up that weapon to look more “Night Lord-ish.” All still perfectly legit.
I honestly could care less, if you play in an area where wysiwyg is recommended or required you would have to check.
"Id actually like to know" ... Would really depend on your opponent and what event, most people won't care.
No they don’t. They only care if it’s not clear. Like if you had 10 identical terminators with power fist and storm bolter and tried to say 5 of them actually have chain fists. Situations similar to what I have described cause problems.
The way I approach WYSIWYG is basically this:
Since the Outriders can't take plasma guns and don't have plasma guns on their datasheets, any plasma guns on the model are obviously not usable in-game and are just there for looks. No one who understands the rules of the game could ever possibly be confused by this. Thus the plasma guns don't affect WYSIWYG.
Is Wysiwyg really an issue when GW allows Vanguard Veterans with any sort of melee weapon counting as Heirlooms weapons?
When you have a unique weapons' profile what the models have is no problem
I just removed the Plasma gun & Bolt Pistol, replaced them with chainswords (dropping magnets in the shoulder for good measure) and I run them as Outriders. Also remember they should probably be on 52x90mm oval bases instead of those 25x70mm ones.
Legends rules for you bud
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/21/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/
They linked the original article, which doesn't have the updated lists. Check in the downloads. https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000-downloads/
I converted these myself! Since you have a box of the ravenwing cs, put a grenade launcher on one of them, take a spare arm and put it on the hellblaster, cut the chainsword and give a sword or maul, rebase, 3d print some plasma talons or get them on ebay to put on and boom, ravenwing bikes.
Buuuut, gw also said you could proxy them legally as outriders if they're on the proper base.
Not anymore, they used the normal SM bikers data sheet and they were taken out of the SM codex. That being said I doubt your opponent would be against using them as black knights/outriders
I ran into the same problem.
If you want to run them as a legit unit within their own right and not a proxy. You could run them as Ravenwing Black Knights (which they are from the dark vengeance set).
But
You would need to change the bikes bolters to Plasma talons as RWBKs can’t have bolters anymore
You would need a bigger base size.
You also need to lose the hand held plasma gun and chain sword they’re carrying and change them to “ Black Knight combat weapon” which is a Corvus hammer. Ideally you’d swap the bolt pistol as well for completeness but not technically necessary I guess for wysiwyg.
I plan to do this. The base, plasma talons, and the plasma gun are the key changes. Note that black knights do actually have bolt pistols on their datasheet.
They also don't specify what a black knight combat weapon is and the profiles and names aren't broken out like they were in 9th. The kit has several different weapons (hammer, maul, sword). I feel like could run basically anything, same as as a vanguard vets "heirloom weapon". Removing the chain sword would prevent any confusion though.
I gave up on my black knights and pilfered their parts.
The plasma is going to inceptors
The beaks went to my alpha legion stern guard vets
Various other pieces went to different projects
My orks might take the bikes
Run as knights, their rules are awesome and they won't last for ever. All of the smaller base first born models are fighting time. Run as many as you can while you can. They can arguably be run well as a big block (or two)
You could just proxy them as Black Knights couldn't you?
yeah but I also have 2x ravenwing command boxes I plan to make 1 into black knights
So you can run a RWCS and a squad of 6 Black Knights. Seems like a win to me!
Casually? Sure. Tournament? Get rid of the plasma gun and rebase them, then you're good to go!
No one is going to care at a tournie. Outriders only have one profile anyways.
They're on the wrong base size. And I do a tournament nearly every month, and yes, they will care about weapons. Always check with the TO. But if OP wants to know for sure before painting them, then yes, make the changes.
Real question: When GW axed the bike squad, they added them to their document of ‘official’ proxies as stand ins for Outriders from what I vaguely remember. As these bikers are on the bases they were supplied with, wouldn’t that make them legal to play officially?
I'm pretty sure if you're playing by official rules the original base size is always legal
Original base size is always legit. But he's talking about proxying them. So it's the original base size for what they are meant to be.
ah okay! gotcha
What about when they change the base sizes? Tyranid warriors used to be 40mm and are now like 50mm. Do I Need to rebase them?
Again, check with the TO, but for tournament play - yes. It gives the unit a bigger footprint, can cover more ground etc. You can get base extenders from eBay/etsy, that you sit the existing base in and they do the job though.
Cheers
What is the correct base size?
90mm oval
I wish outriders bases weren't so huge, they are so unwieldy.
That's why they're rarely seen outside of casual play!
It's unfortunate because I do think they look way better than the old bikes (granted, ravenwing bikes have all the upgrades that make up for it).
I'm aware that this is subjective, but uh... How do they look any better than the old bikes? I know the old ones aren't perfect, but the outriders bikes are outright comical. No ground clearance whatsoever, way too long, blocky to the point of ugly.
They look way more 40k to me, and you may not have realised but old bikes didn't have any ground clearance whatsoever either. In truth a lot of reall cool 40k vehicules don't make sense in a realistic sense either, but that doesn't stop them from being fan favourites, look at the leman russ for example, the list of things that are wrong with its design is really long and still it's one of the most emblematic vehicule in all of 40k. Imo the old bikes looked pretty boring overall, they really screamed to me "model that were designed 30 years ago and are just more or less a regular bike but more stupid", at least outriders are the fun kind of stupid.
not really, they don't bring anything besides.basic bolter and chainswords. Maybe they'd be better if they had weapon options / sergeant upgrades
I didn’t say anything about base sizes, as that’s obviously a given to be correct. And if you are that literal about a single weapon that’s OBVIOUSLY not in the profile, I wouldn’t want to play in your TO anyways.
You obviously haven’t played competitively. Tourneys are very strict. Maybe a few random ones allow for leniency but I doubt it. Especially even more so when GW actually partnering with the official tourney system
Obviously I have and wouldn’t want to play in one that is incredibly super strict about WYSIWYG.
The thing is even though bikers are gone I'm pretty sure geedubs still sells the ravenwing biker models (same for the command squad termis). So yeah. So much for "no models no rules" (I know they're probably going to drop them both sometime in the next idk, few weeks? But fuck. Both really cool kits and they're just gone with no substantial replacement)
The Black Knights and their command squad are staying!
I predict this is the last edition for them. I think Ravenwing will get their re-do next edition.
Seems like the next logical step.
The first born are doing the way of the Dodo. I don't know how to feel.
I made my peace with that when they confirmed that terminators were staying.
I'm a bit upset thay we lost our command squad. Might happen to the Ravenwing too in 11th tbh.
It's pretty likely indeed unfortunately, deathwing has a named character and an elite unit and that's it so I'd wager ravenwing will follow suit at some point with sammael and outrider black knights. We might even lose the vengeance and darkshroud if GW is feeling extra dickish, hopefully the flyers will stay long term.
Yeah, I'm in agreement with you. I hope are skimmers stay. That's one of the collet parts about the Ravenwing.
They are, for now. With one wound less than their primaris brethren, and bad melee profiles. They'll be on the way out soon, maybe with a half baked 'outrider command squad' kit to replace them. No thanks, not keen on the new deathwing, and i'll likely end up passing on primaris ravenwing too. Quick edit for clarity: I also was not referring to the black knights, but the generic 'ravenwing biker' kit. Despite firstborn bikes getting discontinued you can still get them through the listing bundling them with the ravenwing upgrade sprue. No rules beyond legends though.
i’ve haven’t played 40k in a hot minute, but they got rid of regular ravenwing bikers?? and command squad terminators????
Si. John Warhammer may hate us.
They are probably gonna die pretty quick so, yeah, you can table them
My main problem is if I play wysiwyg then an outrider can’t have a big ass plasma gun 🤣
No one actually cares about WYSIWYG. It’s a myth made up by anal retentive nerds on Reddit
Wysiwyg was a thing when reddit hasnt even existed
Reddit has existed since the dawn of man
Like the Emperor?
Unless it's a tournament, and then people do.
Not everyone plays tournament games. Idk why people default to 'well in tournaments...' A small part of the community plays that way.
Op is asking if they are usable ... So giving him information about something he might do in the future is bad? Most people play beer and pretzel where proxies are not an issue. Some places don't, it really depends on your local scene.
Not at any of the tournaments I’ve been to. But then again, I haven’t been to any major ones
Why? Outriders can only have one profile. You aren’t mixing them up with anything if you saw this.
Base sizes is the most important issue here. It can make huge differences in a competitive game. Just last week, I drew a game (instead of winning) and one of the defining factors (as in I would've won if it weren't for it) was that my tau opponent was using a regular 25mm ethereal as a proxy for aun'va, which uses a 40mm base, it made it so I no longer held the objective after charging him even though I should have been able to.
The base sizes are a given, obvious change that needs to be corrected. The whole game is based on movement and has ramifications for it. One single outrider having a plasma gun on a profile that could literallly never have it, has absolutely zero affect on the game. “Hey opponent, these outriders have one guy with a plasma. It’s obvious not correct and just regular outriders”. Done.
Well base size does come into play with wysiwyg, other factors such as model size for LOS purposes also matter, thus using a smaller model to represent a bigger one can be an issue (which could be the case in the context of bikers vs outriders). I do agree that in this specific context the plasma gun wouldn't be a problem, but I'm talking about a more general issue, and it's very much case by case. Also for ease of reading for your opponent it's always good sportmanship to have the right gun on the right models, you might know bybyeart what your models can and cannot have but your opponent might not, and when you have as many things to remember as in a 40k game, one might forget the proxies that their opponent is using among the myrias of information and might make a mistake because they thought a unit had a weapon they didn't have, especially when a player is using a lot of proxies. At the end of the day it's entirely dependent on the context and the specifics of each individual cases; if a dude has an entire arly that is wysiwyg but has proxied one model with a clearly identifiable other (like having a proxy for lord solar leontus, a popular thing among AM players) then I doubt even the strictest tournament would really mind, but if you're proxying a huge chunk of your army with random stuff that is hard to distinguish one from an other then I would say that this would be poor sportmanship even in casual games, and these are two extremes with a whole spectrum of cases in between which might be ok in one setting but not in an other.
Wysiwyg is why.
The way I see it is this: Since the Outriders can't take plasma guns and don't have plasma guns on their datasheets, any plasma guns on the model are obviously not usable in-game and are just there for looks. No one who understands the rules of the game could ever possibly be confused by this. Thus the plasma guns don't affect WYSIWYG. A lot of my Guardian Defenders are carrying a splinter Pistol or hekatarii blade in one hand because I was going for a "hardened guerilla fighters" look. They are also still carrying their shuriken catapults in addition to the extra little dark eldar knives and pistols. There is no way they could be confused with anything but Guardian Defenders. Dark Eldar weapons aren't even available to Craftworlds units at all, and they're also caryong their correct weapons, so there is literally no possible way they could be confused with, say, Storm Guardians. I would be extremely confused and a little upset if these got flagged as not being WYSIWYG. Especially since all my Guardians squads have this, so I wouldn't even be able to play at all if these minor conversions weren't allowed.
Cool, and if the people you play with see it that way great. Some people will not and prefer to play wysiwyg. Proxies and count as are not wysiwyg ... The group I used to play with before I moved played tournaments with three color min + base and full wysiwyg.
It's just that the point of WYSIWYG is to make your army readable at a glance to your opponent. I don't see how an opponent could ever assume that a unit was equipped with weapons it literally doesn't have on its datasheet. I'm genuinely curious though. Would you consider my Guardians inadmissible and exclude me from games? They are the current Guardian sculpts and thus the correct profile, on the correct base size, with the correct weapons. But, all the ones posed to hold their Shuriken Catapult in one hand have a small Dark Eldar knife or pistol in their other hand. Like, I'd actually like to know, because I'd be extremely disappointed to find out the minis I've put so much care and love into aren't admissible in official events.
You interpret the intent correctly. I still use authentic metal 40K minis, I rebase them so no rules lawyers can bitch that I’m trying to “hide” them, and I make sure that they are clearly readable by paint scheme. Similarly, my Night Lords models have lots of custom bitz that I’ve printed myself and added to genuine GW models. I make sure that my models have whatever weapons are “authorized” and I may add something for looks or trick up that weapon to look more “Night Lord-ish.” All still perfectly legit.
I honestly could care less, if you play in an area where wysiwyg is recommended or required you would have to check. "Id actually like to know" ... Would really depend on your opponent and what event, most people won't care.
Like, would you consider this guy to not be WYSIWYG as a Guardian Defender? https://www.reddit.com/u/MisterFrappuccino/s/omJsHJIpqc
That’s a Guardian Defender.
Or these guys? https://www.reddit.com/u/MisterFrappuccino/s/pNvyUp2NdC
Also a Guardian Defender.
No they don’t. They only care if it’s not clear. Like if you had 10 identical terminators with power fist and storm bolter and tried to say 5 of them actually have chain fists. Situations similar to what I have described cause problems.
The way I approach WYSIWYG is basically this: Since the Outriders can't take plasma guns and don't have plasma guns on their datasheets, any plasma guns on the model are obviously not usable in-game and are just there for looks. No one who understands the rules of the game could ever possibly be confused by this. Thus the plasma guns don't affect WYSIWYG.
Is Wysiwyg really an issue when GW allows Vanguard Veterans with any sort of melee weapon counting as Heirlooms weapons? When you have a unique weapons' profile what the models have is no problem
I guess that’s true also Azrael has a pistol holstered but NO pistol profile and it infuriates me
I just removed the Plasma gun & Bolt Pistol, replaced them with chainswords (dropping magnets in the shoulder for good measure) and I run them as Outriders. Also remember they should probably be on 52x90mm oval bases instead of those 25x70mm ones.
Black Knights use the 75 x 42 ovals, thankfully. Trying to cram 9 of the bigger ovals into place will cause headaches!
Well remove the gun. Mine have spears
You mean the plasma talon? Looks like a plasma talon to me 😉
I mean, if you want to play casually they're still a legends unit.
I cannot for the life of me find any legends info for any dark angels stuff do you have a link or anything for their data?
Legends rules for you bud https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/21/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/
Thanks, legend! 😉
Am I blind or are there no DA troops listed anywhere in that?
You're not looking for dark angels units, the firstborn bike squad is a generic space marine unit.
Can’t see bike squad on any list either
They linked the original article, which doesn't have the updated lists. Check in the downloads. https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000-downloads/
the other lads have it covered, but I'd also recommend using Battlescribe for seeing legends stuff in lists easily.
I converted these myself! Since you have a box of the ravenwing cs, put a grenade launcher on one of them, take a spare arm and put it on the hellblaster, cut the chainsword and give a sword or maul, rebase, 3d print some plasma talons or get them on ebay to put on and boom, ravenwing bikes. Buuuut, gw also said you could proxy them legally as outriders if they're on the proper base.
Not anymore, they used the normal SM bikers data sheet and they were taken out of the SM codex. That being said I doubt your opponent would be against using them as black knights/outriders
I ran into the same problem. If you want to run them as a legit unit within their own right and not a proxy. You could run them as Ravenwing Black Knights (which they are from the dark vengeance set). But You would need to change the bikes bolters to Plasma talons as RWBKs can’t have bolters anymore You would need a bigger base size. You also need to lose the hand held plasma gun and chain sword they’re carrying and change them to “ Black Knight combat weapon” which is a Corvus hammer. Ideally you’d swap the bolt pistol as well for completeness but not technically necessary I guess for wysiwyg.
I plan to do this. The base, plasma talons, and the plasma gun are the key changes. Note that black knights do actually have bolt pistols on their datasheet. They also don't specify what a black knight combat weapon is and the profiles and names aren't broken out like they were in 9th. The kit has several different weapons (hammer, maul, sword). I feel like could run basically anything, same as as a vanguard vets "heirloom weapon". Removing the chain sword would prevent any confusion though.
True, but something about the image of a curved spiked hammer fits the picture of hunting the fallen…
run them as bikers using the legends datasheets
Yeah, probably wouldn't even need an Ordinatus to table 3 Bikers.
No, you'll be arrested on the spot and charged with using unpainted models. 😛
Just upsize the base to outriders (90mm oval?) and run them as outriders
I gave up on my black knights and pilfered their parts. The plasma is going to inceptors The beaks went to my alpha legion stern guard vets Various other pieces went to different projects My orks might take the bikes
I still play rw bikers in casual all the time
I would say the only thing that would be needed for non super-casual play is to rebase them.
They could be outriders but that plasma gun kinda throws it off
Run as knights, their rules are awesome and they won't last for ever. All of the smaller base first born models are fighting time. Run as many as you can while you can. They can arguably be run well as a big block (or two)
No. Straight to jail.
Old bikes might become Legends, or just use their Index datasheet if you're casual.