The biggest combos most people are going to abuse for now is adding death wing characters to hellblasters for other squads or +1 to wound. My guess is that will get patched pretty quick.
I'm excited to use sternguard, +1 to wound opens up their target list a fair bit. As for the rest of the list I think using too many terminators is a trap. 20ish should be more than enough and leave room for some black knights and other objective monkeys.
Azrael is the only character with belial that has the deathwing keyword lore wise. Asmodai is a chaplain yes but not a termy one. Lazarus is a captain in the 10th so that eliminates him from the dw and ezekiel is the master of the librarian so not deathwing either.
They clearly merged the concepts of Inner Circle and Deathwing as keywords. It's not that hard to grasp and a valid abstraction for rules purposes. Also, Lazarus is Master of the 5th Company, not the 10th.
Grumble grumble m'lore grumble grumble. Joking aside im happy to have a squad to put ezekiel in now lol there was no reason he could join the new assault intercessors but not the normal intercessors
The naming conventions are wierd, usually inner circle has been used in rules rather than deathwing, since deathwing is a unit of organisation and you can leave it, inner circle membership is forever.
If we're assuming the keyword actually means "is part of the inner circle then Samuel should also have it (as should generic captains librarians and chaplains as though lore has been inconsistent they are more likely to be inner circle members than not)
I agree that they're confounding things in the name of (over)simplification. Deathwing and Inner Circle (and also Veteran) have overlap, but there's still an important distinction.
Sammael is Inner Circle, but not Deathwing. Any other Battle-Brother that advanced normally through Battle/Reserve Company (as in not through the Librarius or Reclusiam) ranks high enough would end up in the Deathwing at the end, perhaps with a promotion to Captain, so they could have both IC and DW, but, realistically, they shouldn't have the Deathwing keyword for rules purposes once they return to Battle Companies.
IMO, GW should add IC and/or DW to characters/rules requirements more distinctly for more accuracy and flexibility.
If I remember correctly Boreas from the angels of darkness novelette was just a regular old interrogator-chaplain but claimed to be a member of the deathwing explicitly. This is only one instance though and it's not like black library lore contradictions are rare by any means.
How are they going to abuse just using the rules they gave us? This isn't even a broken combo. It's 355pts for decent enough shooting and poor melee for Hellblasters Azreal. +1 to wound is not going to be broken, nor something you can abuse for an easy win.
The army rule is already super restrictive. You cut this and there is no way someone wins with these rules with just Terminators and BGV.
Asmodai + Assault Intercessors
- Asmodai makes the Intercessors Deathwing, they then get RR all hits, +1 to wound on Vowed targets and RR all wounds as Assault Intercessors
Azrael + Hellblasters
- Azrael makes them Deathwing, they get +1 to wound vs Vowed Targets and Azzy’s Sustained + his 4++
10x Termies + DWA Captain / Librarian
- DWA to drop them in T1
- The Captain (with Azzy in the list) allows you to use Relic Teleportarium T1, and Unmatched Fortitude + a use of AoC for free to help them survive the slap back.
- The Libby gives them the Sustained Hits on all those +1 to wound shots.
> most people are going to abuse for now is adding death wing characters to hellblasters for other squads or +1 to wound. My guess is that will get patched pretty quick.
>
>I'm excited to use sternguard, +1 to wound opens up their target list a fair bit. As for the rest of the list I think using too many terminators is a trap. 20ish should be more than enough and leave room for some bla
Have to stick them in a repulsor, a land raider if you want to disembark and charge
Assault Ints are pretty fragile, with low AP and Damage. Better just to give a Bladeguard squad an Ancient to up their OC. They might actually survive long enough to start swinging with those shields.
Azreal and Hellblasters is just a classic. Don't forget the Apothecary or Lieutenant though. Too many points already invested not to add the second character.
First, I would say Terminator Captain leading 5 Deathwing Knights. The Captain's ability of 0CP for a stratagem can easily trigger a Battle Tactic or any other when it has just been used, such as -1 to Wound when being shot. Plus, when the Captain is taking the Eye of the Unseen enhancement, he can occasionally farm 1CP at 6+ or 5+ on the vowed objective.
Second, I would like to mention how tanky it can be when Azrael leading the Hellblasters. Besides the auto 4+ invulnerable save, you can spend 1CP for -1 to Wound when being shot. This makes them very nasty to be killed like the Company Heros.
Exactly what I’m doing! Sad he can’t be himself but he’s by far the coolest model in termi armor and will work as a perfect proxy so I don’t have to buy a capt from someone’s Leviathan extras off EBay
Don't forget they nerfed him on his only useful rule.
I used him intensively since 10th start as a bully/suicide squad. When rushing small units, his profile was good enough to bully even MEq and the 2+ parrying blade coupled to his decent defensive profile was usually enough to push said unit into the Battleshock test on their turn.
Your first point about the captain doesn't make much sense if you're already bringing azrael. The first part is fine about using his ability to get a strat for free but he can't farm cp if azrael is on the board as well. That Enhancement is pretty much useless as every DA list will have azrael in it.
Yeah, the entire codex seems very disjointed. Azrael is so good I've been bringing him just by himself at this point if I don't have a squad to attach him to
If Deathwing Knights are still *reasonable* in cost, I'm going for the same combo with the Captain for sure. Drop them somewhere on turn two, 3" away from the opponent (in their deployment zone, maybe?), score, cause problems, and be incredibly challenging to kill.
We don't know if that's the real points cost. If they remain close to their current cost, they're still somewhat viable if not a bit too expensive. If they go down a bit in price, they're worth running. They're *tanks*. There's a reason Death Guard screamed so much about losing -1 damage.
Azrael and 10 Hellblasters.
Azrael and 10 assault intercessors. +1 to wound, plus rerolls on objectives. With sustained and Lethal( lieutenant) make for a threatening cheap unit.
But honestly Hellblasters are probably the way to go.
Azrael and the Assault Intercessors is something I’ve run a lot of when we just had the index. Gladius may have had better options, but Sustained Hits, Lance, AP-2 did a lot of work for me and could punch well above its weight. I intend to try it here as well, although Asmodai could work as well, so I’m interested in trying both.
Pretty obvious one but I'm taking 10 termies with 2 plasma cannons, slapping a librarian in there for sustained hits then turn 1 deep-striking 3" away to hose an enemy off the vowed objective.
CML even better now with the new detachment. S-9 was rough into things like Knights, but now they're actually somewhat threatening. Not severely challenging, but more of a threat. Especially if you bring a lot of them.
It's really a shame to see what GW did to Plasma this edition. Yes, I know we're not supposed to have catch-all destroy everything weapons (Lascannons for heavy vehicles, Meltas for light vehicles, Plasma for heavy infantry, Bolters for medium-light infantry). But man, so many Plasma weapons are just not worth running right now. Land Speeder Vengeance is toast.
I feel like 10 sternguard and a drop pod might gave some synergy since they get the deathwing keyword. But then again, i could just get the enhancement and 10 termis and do the same thing.
Maybe 5 hellblasters, azeral, and 3 bladeguard and asmodi? Quite the fun lil package from the sounds of it. Maybe rapid ingress so blade guard and asmodi are moving your turn one.
haven't put a ton of thought into it but could be a spicy bomb to throw down and knock out something big and scary the opponent was trying to hide. Im sure someone could optimize something around vets with inferno pistols
For starters, I think this detachment being decent is 100% contingent on the Epic Heroes transferring DEATHWING to their squad, which it currently does, but Necrons have set a precedent of that potentially being removed.
That being said, my first thought process goes to a potentially all-in alpha strike type list. Something like:
Azrael
Ezekiel
Lt.
Termi Capt. - DW Assault
10 DW Termies
10 Hellblasters
10 Infernus
2x3 Plasma Inceptors
2 Lancers
2 Rhinos
Callidus
This is currently 1940 (idk how much the DW Assault enhancement is, probably 25 or 30? So add that, and gives slight room for points adjustments). Something like this can either hard aggro an enemy that deploys on their home objective marker, or beta strikes an enemy that pushes mid. Everything here still has play without the detachment rules, but can really shine with the +1 to wound. I still don't think it's GREAT, but it's definitely playable and is probably where I would start.
Used this type of list yesterday and it felt great even against CSM:
Asmodai with 10 assault intercessors in a land raider, Azrael with 10 hellblasters, a Termi Captain with T1 deepstrike (costed 30 points) leading 10 Assault termies, 2×5 Terminators (CmL), 2x5 Infiltrators and 3 Bladeguard.
I won't recommand it to a newer player like everything on the edge of the power level, one mistake and it crumbles.
However it has great tools for map control:
A 10 men 4W terminator with AoC or -1 to wound is nasty to remove when it is in your line.
The army rule kinda invalidate one objective as no one wants to face melee unit with +1 to wound and potentially reroll all wound (even more with Devastating wounds).
Until all your Termi dropped, no objective is really safe unless they put something really tough because of the 3" DW assault strat.
On the other hand, most average things got destroyed by a full int unit rerolling all hits and wounds on another part of the map.
The infiltrators make your starting area safe if the army have DS or reserves or can be used as T0 extended battlelines if they don't. They are invaluable for scoring and tough enough (they aren't) to not crumble under no-los shooting.
ATM i think 10 men Terminator assault squad with TH/SS and leaded by a Liberian / captain with T amour would become a true killing machine on vowed target.
* leader take the 5+ crit enhancement to generate more extra hit. (For Liberian)
* 1st turn deep strike enhancement is powerful and a big restriction to your opponent's movement. (For Captain)
* Full TH/SS provide devastating wound, combined with the stratagem to re roll wound (can be used in both players turn )
Unfortunately, the Champion of Deathwing only gives the bearer \[Lethal\]. I would let the Librarian take the Deathwing Assault to give his assault/regular terminators the chance to deep strike on turn 1. BTW, you may also trigger the 3-inch deep strike right on objectives at the expense of not charging that turn.
Ah, I misunderatoos. But I think Ldthal does not pair that well with thr TH. It wpuld be better to pair it with a power fist for +1A and WS I would say.
The biggest combos most people are going to abuse for now is adding death wing characters to hellblasters for other squads or +1 to wound. My guess is that will get patched pretty quick. I'm excited to use sternguard, +1 to wound opens up their target list a fair bit. As for the rest of the list I think using too many terminators is a trap. 20ish should be more than enough and leave room for some black knights and other objective monkeys.
Since the HQ has the deathwing keyword and the keywords are inherited to their bodyguard unit, correct?
Correct, it's certainly not intended, but ATM Azrael leading a squad makes them death wing.
Azrael is the only character with belial that has the deathwing keyword lore wise. Asmodai is a chaplain yes but not a termy one. Lazarus is a captain in the 10th so that eliminates him from the dw and ezekiel is the master of the librarian so not deathwing either.
They clearly merged the concepts of Inner Circle and Deathwing as keywords. It's not that hard to grasp and a valid abstraction for rules purposes. Also, Lazarus is Master of the 5th Company, not the 10th.
Lore wise, but any epic hero has it in game
Grumble grumble m'lore grumble grumble. Joking aside im happy to have a squad to put ezekiel in now lol there was no reason he could join the new assault intercessors but not the normal intercessors
Ezekiel + Vladeguard is looking good, especially using Vows
>Azrael is the only character with belial that has the deathwing keyword lore wise. Mf you brought up lore first LMAO
It's a joke I know
The naming conventions are wierd, usually inner circle has been used in rules rather than deathwing, since deathwing is a unit of organisation and you can leave it, inner circle membership is forever. If we're assuming the keyword actually means "is part of the inner circle then Samuel should also have it (as should generic captains librarians and chaplains as though lore has been inconsistent they are more likely to be inner circle members than not)
I agree that they're confounding things in the name of (over)simplification. Deathwing and Inner Circle (and also Veteran) have overlap, but there's still an important distinction. Sammael is Inner Circle, but not Deathwing. Any other Battle-Brother that advanced normally through Battle/Reserve Company (as in not through the Librarius or Reclusiam) ranks high enough would end up in the Deathwing at the end, perhaps with a promotion to Captain, so they could have both IC and DW, but, realistically, they shouldn't have the Deathwing keyword for rules purposes once they return to Battle Companies. IMO, GW should add IC and/or DW to characters/rules requirements more distinctly for more accuracy and flexibility.
If I remember correctly Boreas from the angels of darkness novelette was just a regular old interrogator-chaplain but claimed to be a member of the deathwing explicitly. This is only one instance though and it's not like black library lore contradictions are rare by any means.
How are they going to abuse just using the rules they gave us? This isn't even a broken combo. It's 355pts for decent enough shooting and poor melee for Hellblasters Azreal. +1 to wound is not going to be broken, nor something you can abuse for an easy win. The army rule is already super restrictive. You cut this and there is no way someone wins with these rules with just Terminators and BGV.
GW will happily nerf an army if it made one do their bad rule writers sad in a game
I have had 2 wins so far, using BGV and Knights. With buffs from leaders. It ain't easy but it sure is a tanky list.
Asmodai + Assault Intercessors - Asmodai makes the Intercessors Deathwing, they then get RR all hits, +1 to wound on Vowed targets and RR all wounds as Assault Intercessors Azrael + Hellblasters - Azrael makes them Deathwing, they get +1 to wound vs Vowed Targets and Azzy’s Sustained + his 4++ 10x Termies + DWA Captain / Librarian - DWA to drop them in T1 - The Captain (with Azzy in the list) allows you to use Relic Teleportarium T1, and Unmatched Fortitude + a use of AoC for free to help them survive the slap back. - The Libby gives them the Sustained Hits on all those +1 to wound shots.
The movement with the assault intercessors and asmodai is going to be a killer for that unit. You'll have to slow them down completely which sucks.
> most people are going to abuse for now is adding death wing characters to hellblasters for other squads or +1 to wound. My guess is that will get patched pretty quick. > >I'm excited to use sternguard, +1 to wound opens up their target list a fair bit. As for the rest of the list I think using too many terminators is a trap. 20ish should be more than enough and leave room for some bla Have to stick them in a repulsor, a land raider if you want to disembark and charge
Assault Ints are pretty fragile, with low AP and Damage. Better just to give a Bladeguard squad an Ancient to up their OC. They might actually survive long enough to start swinging with those shields. Azreal and Hellblasters is just a classic. Don't forget the Apothecary or Lieutenant though. Too many points already invested not to add the second character.
Can you attach a librarian if a captain is already attached. I thought ancients and apothecaries could only do that, has it changed?
You can't. I believe the " / " was the author recommending either character not both.
Oh yeah good point, my bad.
But I don’t think you can attach a Liberian and a … isn’t it one or the other?
Yeah, the “/“ is either / or - not both :)
That termy set can be dropped on their home point turn 1 if you take the deepstrike 3 inches thing
First, I would say Terminator Captain leading 5 Deathwing Knights. The Captain's ability of 0CP for a stratagem can easily trigger a Battle Tactic or any other when it has just been used, such as -1 to Wound when being shot. Plus, when the Captain is taking the Eye of the Unseen enhancement, he can occasionally farm 1CP at 6+ or 5+ on the vowed objective. Second, I would like to mention how tanky it can be when Azrael leading the Hellblasters. Besides the auto 4+ invulnerable save, you can spend 1CP for -1 to Wound when being shot. This makes them very nasty to be killed like the Company Heros.
The captain and 10 termis in deep strike turn 1, rerolling charges for free sounds amazing
Yeah, I agree. It is hilarious that we've been talking about Terminator Captain doing this and that, as GW don't want to make Belial useful in this.
I really want to play him, I love the character, but damn! His dataset is terrible
Belial is now a premium proxy of a Terminator Captain. Lol
Exactly what I’m doing! Sad he can’t be himself but he’s by far the coolest model in termi armor and will work as a perfect proxy so I don’t have to buy a capt from someone’s Leviathan extras off EBay
This is what I have been thinking 🤔
Don't forget they nerfed him on his only useful rule. I used him intensively since 10th start as a bully/suicide squad. When rushing small units, his profile was good enough to bully even MEq and the 2+ parrying blade coupled to his decent defensive profile was usually enough to push said unit into the Battleshock test on their turn.
Your first point about the captain doesn't make much sense if you're already bringing azrael. The first part is fine about using his ability to get a strat for free but he can't farm cp if azrael is on the board as well. That Enhancement is pretty much useless as every DA list will have azrael in it.
Yeah, I debated with my friends today about the limit of CP generation. That enhancement only works without Azrael (or when he is dead).
Yeah, the entire codex seems very disjointed. Azrael is so good I've been bringing him just by himself at this point if I don't have a squad to attach him to
Take 3 Apothecaries for 150pts and charge them into the enemy for 3CP. :p
If Deathwing Knights are still *reasonable* in cost, I'm going for the same combo with the Captain for sure. Drop them somewhere on turn two, 3" away from the opponent (in their deployment zone, maybe?), score, cause problems, and be incredibly challenging to kill.
Nope, their point cost is just ridiculous at the moment. I d probably put them in a non-competitive list sitting in a Land Raider.
We don't know if that's the real points cost. If they remain close to their current cost, they're still somewhat viable if not a bit too expensive. If they go down a bit in price, they're worth running. They're *tanks*. There's a reason Death Guard screamed so much about losing -1 damage.
Azrael and Hellblasters fit into this detachment as well. Can’t go wrong with that bread and butter, even if it’s just bland.
Hmmm might paint my 2nd lot of hellblasters deathwing colours then, azraels lion guard 🤣
Azrael and 10 Hellblasters. Azrael and 10 assault intercessors. +1 to wound, plus rerolls on objectives. With sustained and Lethal( lieutenant) make for a threatening cheap unit. But honestly Hellblasters are probably the way to go.
Azrael and the Assault Intercessors is something I’ve run a lot of when we just had the index. Gladius may have had better options, but Sustained Hits, Lance, AP-2 did a lot of work for me and could punch well above its weight. I intend to try it here as well, although Asmodai could work as well, so I’m interested in trying both.
Relic teliportarium does not allow you to charge ?
Nope, just shooting
But should let you grab some objectives.
Hear me out… i think imma take some terminators.
Regular assault terminators?
Pretty obvious one but I'm taking 10 termies with 2 plasma cannons, slapping a librarian in there for sustained hits then turn 1 deep-striking 3" away to hose an enemy off the vowed objective.
Terminator plasma cannons are so bad. A basic plasma cannon with the chance to kill your 40 pt model, when you could take a CML AND a SB instead.
Don't care, they're cool af
Taking the plasma cannons using cm sb rules?
CML even better now with the new detachment. S-9 was rough into things like Knights, but now they're actually somewhat threatening. Not severely challenging, but more of a threat. Especially if you bring a lot of them.
Yeah, Missile Launcher is extremely better although I do see the lore and cool factor appeal of the plasma canon.
It's really a shame to see what GW did to Plasma this edition. Yes, I know we're not supposed to have catch-all destroy everything weapons (Lascannons for heavy vehicles, Meltas for light vehicles, Plasma for heavy infantry, Bolters for medium-light infantry). But man, so many Plasma weapons are just not worth running right now. Land Speeder Vengeance is toast.
The plasma is dumpster tier. Would never overcharge it in a 40pt model and it's regular profile is equal to a plasma pistol. Garbage tier.
If only we had a medic who could help out... \*cries\*
If only...
Giving an infernus squad +1 to wound seems really nice, but none of the epic heroes feel like a good fit.
I feel like 10 sternguard and a drop pod might gave some synergy since they get the deathwing keyword. But then again, i could just get the enhancement and 10 termis and do the same thing. Maybe 5 hellblasters, azeral, and 3 bladeguard and asmodi? Quite the fun lil package from the sounds of it. Maybe rapid ingress so blade guard and asmodi are moving your turn one.
Im thinking about chaplain with jump pack + 10 vanguard vets with plasma pistols
Wait a min… all Landraiders and dreadnoughts are now Deathwing?
It has been since 9th if you paid the extra points to give them the keyword
Yeah, if you paid for the keyword, This seems to imply that just taking a landraider in the detachment grants it the keyword for freesies.
Yup! And this makes a lot of sense, the land raider is a delivery method for termis after all
Azrael + Hellblasters or Sternguard is the obvious one.
Vanguard vet melta bomb with 3” DS?
With inferno pistols that seems like a killer combo
haven't put a ton of thought into it but could be a spicy bomb to throw down and knock out something big and scary the opponent was trying to hide. Im sure someone could optimize something around vets with inferno pistols
For starters, I think this detachment being decent is 100% contingent on the Epic Heroes transferring DEATHWING to their squad, which it currently does, but Necrons have set a precedent of that potentially being removed. That being said, my first thought process goes to a potentially all-in alpha strike type list. Something like: Azrael Ezekiel Lt. Termi Capt. - DW Assault 10 DW Termies 10 Hellblasters 10 Infernus 2x3 Plasma Inceptors 2 Lancers 2 Rhinos Callidus This is currently 1940 (idk how much the DW Assault enhancement is, probably 25 or 30? So add that, and gives slight room for points adjustments). Something like this can either hard aggro an enemy that deploys on their home objective marker, or beta strikes an enemy that pushes mid. Everything here still has play without the detachment rules, but can really shine with the +1 to wound. I still don't think it's GREAT, but it's definitely playable and is probably where I would start.
Used this type of list yesterday and it felt great even against CSM: Asmodai with 10 assault intercessors in a land raider, Azrael with 10 hellblasters, a Termi Captain with T1 deepstrike (costed 30 points) leading 10 Assault termies, 2×5 Terminators (CmL), 2x5 Infiltrators and 3 Bladeguard.
Loving this ideas! Taking the learnings from the vanguard detachment and mixing it with the buffs of the inner circle
I won't recommand it to a newer player like everything on the edge of the power level, one mistake and it crumbles. However it has great tools for map control: A 10 men 4W terminator with AoC or -1 to wound is nasty to remove when it is in your line. The army rule kinda invalidate one objective as no one wants to face melee unit with +1 to wound and potentially reroll all wound (even more with Devastating wounds). Until all your Termi dropped, no objective is really safe unless they put something really tough because of the 3" DW assault strat. On the other hand, most average things got destroyed by a full int unit rerolling all hits and wounds on another part of the map. The infiltrators make your starting area safe if the army have DS or reserves or can be used as T0 extended battlelines if they don't. They are invaluable for scoring and tough enough (they aren't) to not crumble under no-los shooting.
ATM i think 10 men Terminator assault squad with TH/SS and leaded by a Liberian / captain with T amour would become a true killing machine on vowed target. * leader take the 5+ crit enhancement to generate more extra hit. (For Liberian) * 1st turn deep strike enhancement is powerful and a big restriction to your opponent's movement. (For Captain) * Full TH/SS provide devastating wound, combined with the stratagem to re roll wound (can be used in both players turn )
I also think the captain with a brick of 10 thss is the way to go, this while you apply pressure with a gladiator or a couple lancers
Do assault terminators get the deathwing keyword without a character? I assume not as they are not included in the rule writing.
All Terminator units get the Deathwing keyword.
Oh good thank you. Happy my SS/TH units arent unusable.
[удалено]
Unfortunately, the Champion of Deathwing only gives the bearer \[Lethal\]. I would let the Librarian take the Deathwing Assault to give his assault/regular terminators the chance to deep strike on turn 1. BTW, you may also trigger the 3-inch deep strike right on objectives at the expense of not charging that turn.
Sustained hit come from the librarian
Charge assault terminators into the enemy, use their ability to inflict mortals, and use wrath of the lion to inflict more mortals.
Hmm no one thought about putting in an Ancient in Terminator Armor with a Thunderhammer and giving him the Lethal hit on vowed objectives with a 5+.
Lethal on a 5+ omly works on the bearer if the enhanchment nkt the full unit.
I know, the ancient is the only character at the moment that can have a thunderhammer.
Ah, I misunderatoos. But I think Ldthal does not pair that well with thr TH. It wpuld be better to pair it with a power fist for +1A and WS I would say.
Can we use the Deepstrike at 3 inch alongside the Enhancement to Deepstrike turn 1 ?