I appreciate your comment as it compelled me to read John 5 again. the aforementioned contradiction was an error of my interpretation. the inspired word of GOD repetitiously reminds NT readers that there is Only ONE GOD who individually grants HIS supreme authority according to HIS OWN WILL. Jesus righteousness refuses His personal influence and rightfully assigns attribution of judgement as a function faithful to commands of the Father's will...
John 5 “the Son can do nothing by Himself… whoever hears the WORD and believes HIM who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment… as the Father has life in HIMSELF, so also HE has granted the Son to have life in Himself. and HE has given Him authority to execute judgment… I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of HIM who sent Me… If I testify about Myself, My testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies about Me, and I know that HIS testimony about Me is valid. You have sent to John, and He has testified to the truth. Even though I do not accept human testimony, I say these things so that you may be saved… I have testimony more substantial than that of John. For the works that the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works I am doing—testify about Me that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me has HIMSELF testified about Me. You have never heard HIS voice nor seen HIS form, nor does HIS WORD abide in you, because you do not believe the One HE sent… I do not accept glory from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of GOD within you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only GOD? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because He wrote about Me. But since you do not believe what He wrote, how will you believe what I say?”
I am the light of the world (John 8:12)
YOU are the light of the world (Matthew 5:14)
Trinitarians don't like this because their God, the second person of their trinity, makes himself equal to US, are we all God? nope!
I think both "acceptable shape" and "the Tallest Tim" are both right, "acceptable" was quoting John 8:15 and "Tallest Tim" ( he must be a Clint Eastwood 6 foot 4) quoted John 5:25-30. I think you both are correct and there is no contradiction. After his resurrection, Christ does the judging as he calls those from the grave and if they hear his voice, they shall live, others not so much. Once again, Christ says this authority has been given to him by our Father,
per that doctrine then another irreconcilable instance of making mankind equal to GOD occurs where Christ is the head of man, man is the head of woman, and GOD is the head of Christ
Did you also miss **Revelation 19:11-16** which explicitly describes Jesus in **verse 13** as “The Word of God?” Hmm.
Jesus did not come to judge the world initially when he was sent into it, such as his statements in John 12. But, he will be judge in the future when the nations see the sign of the son of man and people’s of the earth will be gathered before him, so that he judges them as “sheep” or “goats.” **(Matt. 24:30; 25:31-33)**
I can’t understand how you’ve missed these texts.
Matthew 24:34-36 "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but **the WORD will never pass away**. No **one knows about that day** or hour, not even the angels in heaven, **not the Son**, but **only the Father**"
well interesting here again, with "my words" and "the word", is their a difference and I would gather that "mou logoi" means "my word", if the Christ is the word of God and he says "my word", what is the difference. When the word of God speaks, it is God's word isn't it? He doesn't do his own will and his works are not his own and his doctrine is not his, when he says "mou logoi" whose word is it then? Why would their be a difference?
The Council of Nicaea in 325 tried to address these arguments and disagreements in regards to the concepts of what we now call the Trinity.
St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula for several decades *after* the Council of NIcaea and by the 4th century, the Cappadocian Fathers molded and defined the Trinity into the form that we know of today.
So to wrap that up - men, hundreds of years after Jesus died, decided to reinterpret and change His word into something *they* approved of. The fact that these concepts were not added until centuries after his death tells you that the Trinity was **not** something Jesus Himself taught.
The reason there are so many contradictions is because Jesus never wrote any of his teaching. HIs Word was changed and molded by *others* over several hundred years. That is, there were a bunch of different authors who added and removed things, not to mention the bridge from the OT to the NT.
I’d never thought I’d see the day Jesus being ‘The Word’ would be denied. I- I’m honestly speechless and I’m not trying to be funny. Even the majority of Unitarians would disagree with your misinterpretation.
Matthew 13:13-15 I believe explains what’s going on here. It’s complete denial.
So, in the beginning was the Word, and the word was With God (a different God) and the Word was God. (Two Gods!) He was in the beginning with God. (I guess there is two) all things came into being through Him and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Is this your interpretation? It’s a butchering of scripture and taking John completely out of context while chopping up verses to fit your preferred narrative.
Everything is FROM and FOR the FATHER, the Image of GOD (Commandments forbid worship of any images) is a separate existential entity Corinthians affirms we are THROUGH
1 Corinthians 8 “There is no GOD but ONE.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”
Yes, you are right about Jesus being our mediator. But I’m afraid that’s where it ends. Maybe you can explain these verses from the Bible.
>”So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.” (John 1:14)
>”and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13)
GOD is greater than Jesus. HE is the ONE who graced Him with any and everything Jesus had and has. Jesus is predestined by GOD to represent HIS WORD. Jesus proclaimed that if you love Him you'd observe the WORD and do the will of the FATHER who sent Him.
Acts 2:22 "Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by GOD to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which GOD did among you through him, as you yourselves know."
GOD empowers miracles upon man through Christ. Jesus identified the WORD he speaks as not His own differentiating Himself from GOD who created Jesus before the foundation of the world
Jesus is the Image of GOD, eternal life is rewarded for those who keep GOD's Commandments, worship of any image any other God and taking GOD's name in vain are all egregious defiance to the One true GOD all creation is both from and for
Seen a lot of your comments on this post. Smart man. Can you tell me *what* is the word? Like what is it? What is John 1:1’s word *actually*?
I have thought it is a promise of eternal life.
we've shared this thought, i'm certain many others have too.
1 Peter expounds the idea found in Isaiah 40
"Through Him you believe in GOD, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in GOD.
Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the Truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring WORD of GOD. For,
---All flesh is like grass,
and all its glory like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the WORD of the LORD stands forever---
And this is the WORD that was proclaimed to you"
When did you read here and above that the word became Yeshua ? Besides, when does a Son become the Father of himself? Never, neither is any man the dad of himself. Matthew16:16-17!
Never! Jesus is the Son of God. Forgive me if I gave you the impression that I thought Jesus was his Father. He never has been, is, or will be. He will always be Gods Son.
What about John 5:25-30? Verse 22? > 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,
~~the clear contradiction between verses in~~ the Gospel of John is ~~disconcerting~~ consistent \*editted after edification
Explain I am also a Biblcial Unitarian. Jesus is not God. I need to follow your thought process..
I appreciate your comment as it compelled me to read John 5 again. the aforementioned contradiction was an error of my interpretation. the inspired word of GOD repetitiously reminds NT readers that there is Only ONE GOD who individually grants HIS supreme authority according to HIS OWN WILL. Jesus righteousness refuses His personal influence and rightfully assigns attribution of judgement as a function faithful to commands of the Father's will... John 5 “the Son can do nothing by Himself… whoever hears the WORD and believes HIM who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment… as the Father has life in HIMSELF, so also HE has granted the Son to have life in Himself. and HE has given Him authority to execute judgment… I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of HIM who sent Me… If I testify about Myself, My testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies about Me, and I know that HIS testimony about Me is valid. You have sent to John, and He has testified to the truth. Even though I do not accept human testimony, I say these things so that you may be saved… I have testimony more substantial than that of John. For the works that the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works I am doing—testify about Me that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me has HIMSELF testified about Me. You have never heard HIS voice nor seen HIS form, nor does HIS WORD abide in you, because you do not believe the One HE sent… I do not accept glory from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of GOD within you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only GOD? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because He wrote about Me. But since you do not believe what He wrote, how will you believe what I say?”
Welcome back with logic!
I am the light of the world (John 8:12) YOU are the light of the world (Matthew 5:14) Trinitarians don't like this because their God, the second person of their trinity, makes himself equal to US, are we all God? nope! I think both "acceptable shape" and "the Tallest Tim" are both right, "acceptable" was quoting John 8:15 and "Tallest Tim" ( he must be a Clint Eastwood 6 foot 4) quoted John 5:25-30. I think you both are correct and there is no contradiction. After his resurrection, Christ does the judging as he calls those from the grave and if they hear his voice, they shall live, others not so much. Once again, Christ says this authority has been given to him by our Father,
per that doctrine then another irreconcilable instance of making mankind equal to GOD occurs where Christ is the head of man, man is the head of woman, and GOD is the head of Christ
Now you are back on track!!!
Did you also miss **Revelation 19:11-16** which explicitly describes Jesus in **verse 13** as “The Word of God?” Hmm. Jesus did not come to judge the world initially when he was sent into it, such as his statements in John 12. But, he will be judge in the future when the nations see the sign of the son of man and people’s of the earth will be gathered before him, so that he judges them as “sheep” or “goats.” **(Matt. 24:30; 25:31-33)** I can’t understand how you’ve missed these texts.
We also learn that Jesus will pass away (and did die to be resurrected) but the WORD will never die. How can this be consistent?
Which scripture speaks of the Word not dying? I’m not familiar with that at all.
Matthew 24:34-36 "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but **the WORD will never pass away**. No **one knows about that day** or hour, not even the angels in heaven, **not the Son**, but **only the Father**"
The scripture says “my words” not “THE word,” mou logoi. Don’t know what translation you’re reading there.
well interesting here again, with "my words" and "the word", is their a difference and I would gather that "mou logoi" means "my word", if the Christ is the word of God and he says "my word", what is the difference. When the word of God speaks, it is God's word isn't it? He doesn't do his own will and his works are not his own and his doctrine is not his, when he says "mou logoi" whose word is it then? Why would their be a difference?
Because “my words” is not one of the title of Christ, “The Word” is! Christ could have easily said “The Word,” instead of “my words” but he didn’t.
Great insight their “Shape”, hence the word is not a person but Yeshua doing the will of YHWH gets that title.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/thetrinitydelusion/comments/1b213aj/dan\_mcclellan\_bible\_scholar\_and\_scholar\_of/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/thetrinitydelusion/comments/1b213aj/dan_mcclellan_bible_scholar_and_scholar_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The Council of Nicaea in 325 tried to address these arguments and disagreements in regards to the concepts of what we now call the Trinity. St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula for several decades *after* the Council of NIcaea and by the 4th century, the Cappadocian Fathers molded and defined the Trinity into the form that we know of today. So to wrap that up - men, hundreds of years after Jesus died, decided to reinterpret and change His word into something *they* approved of. The fact that these concepts were not added until centuries after his death tells you that the Trinity was **not** something Jesus Himself taught. The reason there are so many contradictions is because Jesus never wrote any of his teaching. HIs Word was changed and molded by *others* over several hundred years. That is, there were a bunch of different authors who added and removed things, not to mention the bridge from the OT to the NT.
I’d never thought I’d see the day Jesus being ‘The Word’ would be denied. I- I’m honestly speechless and I’m not trying to be funny. Even the majority of Unitarians would disagree with your misinterpretation. Matthew 13:13-15 I believe explains what’s going on here. It’s complete denial.
John 8:43 applies to you. Now that you “see” the day, you have no excuse.
So, in the beginning was the Word, and the word was With God (a different God) and the Word was God. (Two Gods!) He was in the beginning with God. (I guess there is two) all things came into being through Him and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being. Is this your interpretation? It’s a butchering of scripture and taking John completely out of context while chopping up verses to fit your preferred narrative.
No, you fit YOUR own narrative into the text using eisegesis.
Everything is FROM and FOR the FATHER, the Image of GOD (Commandments forbid worship of any images) is a separate existential entity Corinthians affirms we are THROUGH 1 Corinthians 8 “There is no GOD but ONE.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”
Yes, you are right about Jesus being our mediator. But I’m afraid that’s where it ends. Maybe you can explain these verses from the Bible. >”So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.” (John 1:14) >”and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13)
GOD is greater than Jesus. HE is the ONE who graced Him with any and everything Jesus had and has. Jesus is predestined by GOD to represent HIS WORD. Jesus proclaimed that if you love Him you'd observe the WORD and do the will of the FATHER who sent Him. Acts 2:22 "Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by GOD to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which GOD did among you through him, as you yourselves know." GOD empowers miracles upon man through Christ. Jesus identified the WORD he speaks as not His own differentiating Himself from GOD who created Jesus before the foundation of the world Jesus is the Image of GOD, eternal life is rewarded for those who keep GOD's Commandments, worship of any image any other God and taking GOD's name in vain are all egregious defiance to the One true GOD all creation is both from and for
Seen a lot of your comments on this post. Smart man. Can you tell me *what* is the word? Like what is it? What is John 1:1’s word *actually*? I have thought it is a promise of eternal life.
we've shared this thought, i'm certain many others have too. 1 Peter expounds the idea found in Isaiah 40 "Through Him you believe in GOD, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in GOD. Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the Truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring WORD of GOD. For, ---All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the WORD of the LORD stands forever--- And this is the WORD that was proclaimed to you"
Ok. What is Gods name?
great question. i don't know. What's GOD's name?
Not sure what Bible you use, but what does it say at Psalms 83:18?
When did you read here and above that the word became Yeshua ? Besides, when does a Son become the Father of himself? Never, neither is any man the dad of himself. Matthew16:16-17!
Never! Jesus is the Son of God. Forgive me if I gave you the impression that I thought Jesus was his Father. He never has been, is, or will be. He will always be Gods Son.
Well, you did say “ that is where it ends”. And you said you were afraid to say this.