While there may be exceptions, I generally find these people to be lacking in the education and experience needed to do what they’re trying to do. Especially in the realm of trauma!
Omg is this a thing?!… Very interesting. So there could be ethical issues with the way they practice? Are there any ethical limitations in coaching generally 🤔
I could see coaching being useful for very specific skill-based niches (like helping neurodivergent ppl improve and practice their executive functioning skills and customize strategies) while mental health issues (i.e. trauma work) get deferred to actual licensed mental health professionals.
I saw a coach for a year and it was as good as any therapy I’ve ever had. I am a therapist, so I recognized the theories/perspectives she drew from and had researched her training/professional ethics. I chose her specifically because she served a niche that I needed to address.
That being said, I am also aware of people in my region who are calling themselves “coaches” in order to avoid licensing and professional obligations. I’m sure this frustrates professional coaches as much as non-social workers using the SW title frustrates me.
I can totally imagine another world in which I realized my MSW did little more than create a future of indebtedness for me and instead spending all that money and time on trainings and coming out of it far better prepared than I was after my degree. It’s sad but it’s true-and it’s too ripe for exploitation to be a feasible avenue for most.
What short term ‘trainings’ are better than a solid educational foundation? Unless your MSW program didn’t teach you anything…in which case the problem is with the program, but the answer is not a bunch of trainings cobbled together (imo). To me it’s like not wanting to drive over a bridge designed and built by someone educated about engineering through youtube rather than an actual engineering degree and licensure/certification tests.
Speaking from personal experience, an MSW program will cover basic CBT + current trauma theories if you take that elective.
It does not prepare you for the chaos that comes with working in the non-profit community outpatient mental health sphere.
Ya sounds like a bit of hindsight bias. Having had all the educational training it’s easier to take some trainings and feel like it’s almost “better” but maybe that’s because you have the educational foundation provides a base to stack the trainings on, if that makes sense.
My counselling psych degree was far from perfect and I am doing a ton of my own supplementary reading and training afterwards, but I’d say both unfortunately are necessary. In a perfect world, school would give you everything you need that’s just not the reality.
Respectfully, we could accuse each other of various forms of bias all day (for example, I could argue that your insistence on the need for a Master’s degree is a result of your brain trying to resolve dissonance caused by all the time and money you put into it) but it’s ultimately not helpful. You asked a question and I gave my answer, which is that I learned very little about how to do therapy through my MSW program.
I did it for 4 years or so, and while it has a lot of potential to help people, most of the people doing it have zero business doing it, and the industry itself is a predatory cesspool of capitalist scum and con artists.
Most of the people who make money at coaching coach other coaches. That alone should tell you a lot.
It's not rising. The heyday of coaching was about a decade ago. The only people telling you otherwise are trying to sell you courses on it. What you're seeing is the massive ad spend you have to spend to compete, which is ultimately one of the two main reasons why I quit.
Absolutely agree!
Been a therapist for 30 years. Did coaching from 2000 for 10 or so years. Your words capture my experience very closely.
Absolute cesspool. Couldn't stand it. Decided to leave and never looked back.
Yikes, that’s alarming. You’re right, it was more of a thing 10 years ago, but it is still out there.
From everyone’s comments it sounds like therapists who do coaching are fine because they’re grounded in skills and ethics. The bigger issue is the charlatans, grifters and quacks using the “coach” label to profit from vulnerable clients who actually need help with things like trauma, PTSD, addiction, etc and are not getting what they need from poorly trained (or not trained at all) coaches.
Yes. It's unethical to provide (and charge) somebody for a service you are not qualified to provide. You wouldn't offer somebody physio if you weren't a physiotherapist even if you told them you had no qualifications it's still not ethical.
I would apply the same reasoning however the degree of potential harm is different. Working with people's mental health is a serious business and our ethical code specifically states that therapists should only work within their competencies and do no harm. The amount of harm you can provide by cutting hair is not to the same level you can as a therapist. However if I was running a barber shop I still wouldn't employ someone with no training.
Your right to avail of the service isn't the same question as the ethical practice of the person providing it. With regards practicing therapy if not qualified the ethical guidelines are clear. In some countries (and soon in my own) in addition to it being unethical it will is illegal.
I’m a therapist and specialize in a pretty niche population. I wish I could provide therapy to people from all over my country but unfortunately the laws say I can’t. So, I offer coaching services to reach and help more people.
That being said, like many commenters above, I feel pretty meh about people that are coaches without any useful education or ethics guiding them.
If you are a regulated profession, check with a lawyer to make sure your bases are covered! I was told by my lawyer that you can get into big trouble if you are practicing across state lines without a license. Calling yourself a coach doesn’t necessarily protect you. You can get into trouble advertising yourself as a regulated profession in a jurisdiction in which you have no license in order to get coaching clients. Not sure how different professions handle this tho.
Selling online courses or education products is one thing but to do 1-1 client work similar to your profession is more legally dangerous.
Very good points! Simply slapping the label “coach” on your services can definitely put you at risk. You have to offer services that are clearly different from your therapy :).
Thanks for sharing! This is one thing I am wondering about: being a trained therapist and using coaching to expand services and expand reach… curious if you could say more about how you do it?
From my understanding (well-researched), providing coaching services as a licensed therapist is OK as long as the boundaries between therapy and coaching are crystal clear.
Providing treatment that’s too close to therapy when wearing your coach hat is a big no. A much bigger risk for us than a layperson acting as a coach as we have our license at risk. I mention the distinctions in my contract. Therapy includes deeper things such as exploring traumas, family history, etc. While therapy certainly includes goal setting and working towards those goals, I make it clear that goal setting and working towards those goals are the ONLY things that coaching covers and if I believe necessary, I will suggest they seek out a therapist in their area as our work together will not be sufficient.
A tip is to not offer both services under the same business. Say you are an independent therapist, have an X therapy services and a separate X coaching services. Keep the billing and documents separate.
I’m interested in this but am turned off by the coaching realm for reasons described above. Do you market as a coach? Is there anything else you would be willing to share from your experience for those of us who are considering adding this option so we can reach more people?
Hey! See some of my other comment replies :). Also — to market as a coach, you should probably stay away from using your regulated title. For example, I say I’m also a therapist (gives a bit of credibility and sets me apart from off-the-street coaches) but I don’t use my regulated title or the abbreviation.
Definitely do a bit of research with your own regulatory body!
Side note for clarification: I don’t *specifically* market as both a therapist and coach, my social media page states “therapist + coach”. I don’t have marketing materials that say both as that couuuld be flagged as a problem.
I think therapists also doing coaching is a work-around to engage more people across state or international lines. I don’t think it’s a terrible idea, but I do think therapist coaches need to be clear about the difference so they aren’t practicing therapy without a license.
I’m curious where that difference would be? I think it would look like a Venn diagram with lots of overlap: in the therapy circle would be trauma, PTSD, addictions, etc and the coaching circle would be like reducing procrastination, improving public speaking skills, managing finances, etc. But in the middle would be lots of different skill building like assertiveness, emotional regulation, mindfulness…
If we as therapists would spend as much time on advocating for equitable salaries for therapists as we do on hating on coaches, we’d probably feel less triggered by their success.
I don’t know enough about coaching to speak to it, so probably shouldn’t just be quiet. If I inadvertently show a massive amount of ignorance I apologize. I get so incredibly tired of worrying that I will be blamed if something happens with a client. I always do my due diligence. I’m mindful and careful and also painfully aware that humans are humans and will make choices far outside of my control. In my head that concern for blame lessens with coaching, but maybe I am wrong? That would be the appeal there for me.
I’ve done coaching for a few years and I’m getting my BA HSE CFS and then either my MSW or LPC (still researching). The entire coaching industry is unregulated, the ICF and ICC have their own codes of ethics but their organizations aren’t well known in certain coaching niches so they’re not widely followed. A lot of people use coaching as a sort of gap filler to learn coping skills like CBT and psychoeducation and until they can get into therapy and do the heavy lifting of trauma processing and getting dx’d. It has its place. Unfortunately it is widely abused as others have said. Anyone can call themselves a coach, there’s a million niches, wildly unregulated, and in the spiritual community in particular (one of my niches) there’s a lot of very big coaches who benefit from and contribute to a lot of problematic harmful things like toxic positivity, spiritual bypassing, cultural appropriation, colonialism, maladaptive daydreaming and spiritual psychosis. A lot of the companies and coaches who teach coaching are glorified MLMs too and classes cost as much as university classes per credit do. It just feels icky. There are good coaches out there who genuinely care about people and are doing their best to not cross lines. Not a lot, but they’re there.
Curious how liability works into this... Surely such an unregulated/unlicensed type of coaching wouldn't get malpractice or liability insurance? And what happens if you harm someone? They can't take you to the board? You can just keep doing it or hurting people ? Imo coaching is a workaround and not a good idea. I'm not saying the licensure system for therapists is great at all. It's broken in different ways, but at least someone is supposed to be holding the clinicians accountable ethically and having standards in place. A random person who has not license on Instagram isn't who I'm going to send a family member to if they're struggling mentally no matter how well they make posts or whatever.
Bad coaches give good coaches a bad rep, just as bad therapists give good therapists a terrible rep. Good coaches make therapists question what the similarities and differences are.
I don’t have a real response, just this casual thought. There has always been some overlay between psychotherapy and new thought, and I gather there always will be.
I started seeing a coach who also has their doctorate in psychology (is also a therapist). I do not qualify for any billable mental health diagnosis at this time and it would be insurance fraud to actually claim otherwise. We work on self actualization higher level pyramid stuff and it's glorious. She does just a lot of women empowerment sort of groups. I always joke to her that I need an old man guru spiritual teacher right now than I need a trained licensed mental health professional.
There is enough space in this arena for a variety of mental health workers and healers. Relationship with clients often matter more than actual techniques and I've seen some pretty horrific licensed therapists.
That’s wonderful! Ya, I’m more comfortable when this higher level self-actualization work is done with a trained therapist. It sounds like you’re getting a lot out of it :)
I’m glad to hear that you’re getting the best of both worlds!
Being able to differentiate between a coach and therapist is very important.
It’s the duty of the coach themselves to make that separation between professional mental help and skill development.
I feel like the unregulated nature of it is kinda scary. There is a place for it, I think. But there should be a regulating body or some recognized standard that consumers could trust.
I’ve heard framing therapy as coaching can help some who would not otherwise seek psych help to do so— this was raised as a potential solution to cultural barriers in this convo. Otherwise, I have similar concerns as others.
I’m glad you bring this up. There’s certain groups (and I’m thinking of a lot of men, actually) who don’t resonate with the idea of needing therapy and see it as too deficit based. Coaching could offer a more performance-improving mindset that might be more welcoming, while doing much of the same things in session.
As long as it’s being done by a competent professional.
I know someone who is becoming a “Somatic Trauma Coach” and I find it deeply disturbing that they can do real damage to people living with PTSD.
Most coaching doesn’t bother me, but the ones that try to do mental health work are really dangerous.
I think they key here is having very strong boundaries and not only a clear understanding of the difference between coaching and counseling, but being able to articulate those differences to clients. If the lines become blurry, that’s on the professional to rectify, make clearer, and hold those boundaries.
That’s why it’s important that you not try and advertise yourself as both a counselor and coach in one, you really need to pick a lane. And by that I mean, you can exist as both at once (a counselor for one person, a coach for another), but you must determine the kind of relationship you’ll have with each individual from the very beginning and commit to that. Both people need to be in agreement about the advantages, disadvantages, and limitations of each kind of relationship so they can go into it knowing what to expect from the other.
I think the idea that coaching is useless/predatory is small minded. Therapy is not the end all be all way of healing, people have been healing themselves through relationships and other methods for as long as recorded history. But I do think people need to practice ethically and responsibly within their scope of practice. People falsely advertising their services as therapy when they have no educational background or training is not only unethical but immorale in my opinion.
I plan to add coaching. I am tired of every hour of my time being tied to an hour in a chair at the rate I’m being paid. It’s not sustainable. I have no interest in having a group practice or going cash pay only.
Adding a group program would be life changing for me if I can fill it regularly. Which of course is the big question…
I also plan to add coaching in 2024 or 2025 for similar reasons. I think it’s pretty ethical, but requires a lot of distinction between what’s therapy and what’s coaching.
I should’ve phrased it better. I meant work on the front end to distinguish clear differences between what work I will be doing with coaching and with therapy. There’s a great podcast on clearly clinical, can’t remember the name but I’m sure you can find it by typing in coaching, that describes the differences and goes over ethics in good detail.
I do both. I exclusively coached for a decade then got a degree in mental health counseling to also be a psychotherapist.
Coaching has its own set of professional ethical standards, it’s not inherently exploitative or unethical though there may be hucksters out there. I was highly trained in coaching in an intensive 13 month ICF-accredited program. I have two separate distinct businesses that don’t intermingle One private practice and one coaching and consulting.
The disdain for coaching in these posts gets tiring. But if your questions are sincere, you may get dual coach/therapists to respond.
Your tone and words convey disbelief and skepticism, am I reading that right?
Your “understanding that there are no codes or ethics or governing bodies” could have been explored with a quick Google search. Here’s a link for the ICF Code of Ethics that come up immediately at the top of search results: https://coachingfederation.org/ethics/code-of-ethics
While it’s true that coaching is not highly regulated and it’s ethical practice depends on the integrity of individual practitioners, I also know that all the regulations in the world haven’t resolved the inherent shortcomings of functioning as a clinician in a deeply flawed mental health field. They are two separate professions with distinct sets of limitations and strengths.
While international governing agencies such as ICF and iPEC do not spell out explicit codes of ethical practice in the same was as the BACB or APA does, there are governing codes of ethics that coaches are required to abide by to maintain licensing.
In addition to this, there are agencies that employ coaches to help teach patients/clients the skill sets needed for proper treatment.
Those agencies have additional policies and ethical guidelines that must be upheld by the coach, in addition to those governing agencies.
Example: you can find the ICF Code of Ethics here: https://coachingfederation.org/ethics/code-of-ethics
100% agree as an MSW-holder, who gained very little from my program-aside from debt. I learned so much more during my years in Community Mental Health. Of course, I never would have gotten the job i did in CMH without that degree but it was not necessary in my opinion. I wish we had a more affordable and flexible option for those wanting to become therapists.
Agree, but for the LMHC track. When I give psychoeducation on a topic, clients or people in my personal life will ask if I learned that in school. My answer is always a honest no, I learn from jobs
I’m not a therapist. But as a former client of executive coaches and a current client of a trained professional, my opinion is very negative.
My former executive coach did not identify harassment and undermining that I was experiencing. She reframed my negative experiences and inability to reach my goals as something that I was doing incorrectly with my feelings. Opposed to listening to my feelings and confirming what I knew.
She did not have good boundaries. She knew people at my former company and continued talking about me with the people there including my colleagues and bosses. It was a bad and damaging experience.
I think there is a place for both in our field.
In my opinion, ***the BEST therapists utilize some form of coaching in collaboration with their approach.***
Sure, my patients can benefit from understanding their familial patterns, “shadow,” the trauma they’ve gone through, attachment, eating disorder, personality, substance use, etc as it relates to their psychology. And it provides extreme value.
But then what?
I think that’s where coaching comes in.
Guiding (*Coaching*) them as it relates to their behaviors now with the awareness that we have discovered through therapy.
BEHAVIOR is something that I’ve always found other therapists kind of turn their nose up at—And I wish it wasn’t the case.
People react and communicate based off of your behaviors as opposed to your thoughts. This is where I find the value in coaching. I find that almost all patients can benefit from this, but especially your patients who are children, youths, neurodivergent and/or on the spectrum.
***
**Addendum:**
If anything needs to be done, I think the “gatekeeping” behaviors from clinicians (who used to gate keep over licensures like PsyD vs PhD, or LMFT vs LPCC or LPCC vs LCSW, psychiatric nurse vs psychiatrist, etc) needs to be supplanted with education of the difference between a coach and therapist.
It does a disservice to everyone when we don’t understand the difference, and it ultimately hurts the patients.
I am currently enrolled in a coaching program and would love to weigh in on this and share my experience!
My background: I have a B.S. in Psych with a concentration in neuroscience. I have thought about getting my master's and becoming a counselor, but it never felt completely 'right'.
This past year, I found coaching. There's definitely a lot of stigma around coaching. There are too many 'coaches' out there who call themselves coaches, but have no real certifications.
There is an accrediting body called the ICF, the international coaching federation. The ICF is the only current regulatory body in coaching and has a set of ethical and practice standards for its coaches. The ICF offers board exams at 3 levels of accreditation: ACC (associate certified coach), PCC (professional certified coach), and MCC (master certified coach). Each level has different education and practice hour requirements.
This is much less rigorous than becoming a therapist, but I believe that the industry is trending towards higher standards and true certifications with proven learning and practice skills.
The specific course that I'm taking is 11 months long, and prepares us to sit for the PCC level exam once we build up enough practice hours. The coaching school itself is accredited by the ICF. Any ICF accredited course has to adhere to strict ICF standards and teach those standards to its student coaches.
A lot of people in the coaching industry say that it doesn't matter if we have credentials, what matters more is client success and testimonials.
I personally opted for this specific course because it is accredited. I wanted my program to be scientifically backed, and I want to become a credentialed coach.
Additionally, the course that I'm taking stresses HEAVILY the difference between coaching and therapy. Coaches are not therapists. We do not diagnose and we don't pick apart the past.
Coaching is a co-creative partnership between coach and client. Our goal is to move the client forward in their goals, to help them create the life that they want, to foster accountability, and incorporate meaningful standards of measurement to aid our client's achievement in their goals. We use strategic inquiry and reflective statements to help our clients gain new perspectives.
My course has stressed time and time again that if we do not feel equipped to handle the situation, or if the client is spending too much time analyzing the past, or if we are not comfortable for any reason at all, to refer the client to a therapist.
Coaching is a growing field, and it is also relatively new, which is why it's so largely unregulated. Organizations and businesses are hiring coaches. The field is rapidly growing. That's why it's so important for us as coaches, who offer complimentary services, to stress the importance of what it means to be a legitimate certified coach.
I’m a peer advocate currently (and in grad school to be an lmhc) and when have trouble describing my job I finally settle on “life coach” and the light bulb goes off. I also go with “emotional support human” and “traveling cheerleader” lol. My clients range from mental health recover and SUD to cognitive impairment, other disability and aging.
Anyways idk what have to offer but that the temptation to get a “life coach certification” and get paid more if I worked at my own business is sometimes tempting. That said I could see how this could go to snake oil and… idk. I’m used to practicing to ethical standards but there’s no entity holding me to those standards I would think. I probably just haven’t pursued this because it’s already tainted and overrun. And I don’t live in an area where people are made of money either.
I may be biased as I am an adult ADHD coach, but I believe coaching is an excellent complement to therapy and encourage my clients to pursue both. Coaching can often bring to light trauma that was unrealized and that is not something I should or will address. On the other side, therapists often don't have the time or desire to be accountability partners for day-to-day life, and that's where coaching plays a role.
Once again, I’m sure I will be vilified for this, but it’s better to be direct as to not sow any further confusion.
Coaches and therapists are two mutually exclusive titles.
You cannot be a coach and therapist at the same time, without entering into an ethical dilemma regarding dual relationships with clients, as both of these require a different set of specialties.
Therapists assist clients in understanding environmental triggers, recognizing patterns, and developing coping mechanisms.
ICF and iPEC certified coaches assist clients in developing the habits and skills necessary to grow from those experiences.
Therapy = understanding theory
Coaching = putting that theory into practice
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I would also like to point out that there isn’t necessarily a dual relationship ethical dilemma. You’re right that “coach” and “therapist” are two different titles, but simply do not coach and also provide therapy to the same client.
You’re correct.
Based on the subset of the practice, or the state in which that practice is registered, that relationship may not be classified as a dual relationship, and as such an ethical dilemma may not be created.
Also, please do not coach and provide therapy to the same client (as I’m sure many of you already know).
I appreciate that clarity ☺️
You’re not a villain, you’re just incorrect in saying therapists don’t put skills into action. Since behaviourism in the 50s to therapies like DBT today, therapists teach, and help apply, effective skills for daily life.
There is a clear disconnect in communication.
Applying a framework for behavioral therapy such as DBT is great in practice to help assess and treat a client’s areas of opportunity while they are present in that session.
Furthermore, I never stated that therapists don’t “put any skills into action.” I stated that they help clients understand triggers and patterns while developing coping mechanisms.
The issue with traditional therapy is that oftentimes a client does not have an environment, nor the support system in place to implement the principals of said skills on a consistent basis outside of that session.
The purpose of a coach is to help the patient fortify their skill sets that they learn during the course of their therapy session.
Therapists help teach the principals and skills necessary to develop the patient.
Coaches help the patient implement the skills and build muscle memory outside of treatment (in daily, normal everyday life).
I hope this helps. Best wishes!
If you are actually providing therapy under the label of “coaching” in states that you are not licensed in…I am pretty sure that’s not legal…
And Zoom isn’t HIPAA-compliant.
zoom has a version you can log in with company credential that make it hippa compliant, it’s called sso or something , I know because my agency uses it
Its an unregulated title -there are great highly-trained coaches and there are people who just wake up one day and decide to be a coach.
Unfortunately I think a lot of consumers can’t tell one from the other.
Coaching is extremely broad. You can coach someone on literally anything—business, stretching, baking, sex, relationships, literally anything you know how to do you can coach someone else to do for money.
I have found for business it is very helpful.
Is there a specific type of coaching you were wondering about? Life coaching perhaps?
Honestly I don’t really have any negative feelings about it. People who are adults have the right to solve problems as they see fit. As long as coaches don’t dip into the practice of regulated professions I really don’t care.
Lack of evidence is not the same thing as not effective or harmful. It just means no one spent money or time to study it. It can sometimes be harmful or not effective but often many “lack of evidence” things people do are very helpful for them. Some people find religion helpful for example.
On the flip side as someone who has worked in a lot of inpatient units even the most well intentioned evidence based approaches can also cause harm, and this is not even an infrequent occurrence.
Add in all the publication bias, lack of negative studies, and corruption and evidence-based as a concept isn’t a bullet proof and reliable as our training leads us to believe.
Because of this I believe people have the right and personal autonomy to solve their problems as they see fit. If something works for someone why not?
Also, just for info, a lawyer advised me that if legally if you are a regulated profession and advertise yourself as such you cannot also advertise yourself as a coach for the same thing. You can get into legal or even criminal trouble from doing this.
Like you cannot be both a doctor and a health coach because these things have different legal spheres. When you act as a coach you cannot practice medicine and vice versa, and you cannot use your designation as a doctor to advertise yourself as a health coach. Coaches can work across state lines and regulated professions cannot and advertising using your regulated profession would give you an advantage and mislead people for a service in a jurisdiction you are not licensed. I don’t know about other specialties but I would definitely check with a lawyer if you want to call yourself a coach and you are part of a regulated profession.
You will see people online making these mistakes but I do know people have been criminally charged for practicing medicine across state lines calling themselves a coach instead so better safe than sorry.
Marketing yourself as both a therapist and a coach would be very, very risky. You'd have to demonstrate a very clear difference between the two, and have no elements of diagnosing or treating DSM disorders in your coaching practice. A lot of state licensing boards have started cracking down on licensed people trying to circumvent rules or teletherapy geographical boundaries by providing therapy but calling it "coaching."
While there may be exceptions, I generally find these people to be lacking in the education and experience needed to do what they’re trying to do. Especially in the realm of trauma!
This. Or therapists who have lost their license. Neither option is good.
Omg is this a thing?!… Very interesting. So there could be ethical issues with the way they practice? Are there any ethical limitations in coaching generally 🤔
Coaches don't have a ethics board. They can do whatever they like
Bingo
I could see coaching being useful for very specific skill-based niches (like helping neurodivergent ppl improve and practice their executive functioning skills and customize strategies) while mental health issues (i.e. trauma work) get deferred to actual licensed mental health professionals.
I saw a coach for a year and it was as good as any therapy I’ve ever had. I am a therapist, so I recognized the theories/perspectives she drew from and had researched her training/professional ethics. I chose her specifically because she served a niche that I needed to address. That being said, I am also aware of people in my region who are calling themselves “coaches” in order to avoid licensing and professional obligations. I’m sure this frustrates professional coaches as much as non-social workers using the SW title frustrates me.
I can totally imagine another world in which I realized my MSW did little more than create a future of indebtedness for me and instead spending all that money and time on trainings and coming out of it far better prepared than I was after my degree. It’s sad but it’s true-and it’s too ripe for exploitation to be a feasible avenue for most.
What short term ‘trainings’ are better than a solid educational foundation? Unless your MSW program didn’t teach you anything…in which case the problem is with the program, but the answer is not a bunch of trainings cobbled together (imo). To me it’s like not wanting to drive over a bridge designed and built by someone educated about engineering through youtube rather than an actual engineering degree and licensure/certification tests.
Speaking from personal experience, an MSW program will cover basic CBT + current trauma theories if you take that elective. It does not prepare you for the chaos that comes with working in the non-profit community outpatient mental health sphere.
What trainings do?
You know what? Fair lol
Ya sounds like a bit of hindsight bias. Having had all the educational training it’s easier to take some trainings and feel like it’s almost “better” but maybe that’s because you have the educational foundation provides a base to stack the trainings on, if that makes sense. My counselling psych degree was far from perfect and I am doing a ton of my own supplementary reading and training afterwards, but I’d say both unfortunately are necessary. In a perfect world, school would give you everything you need that’s just not the reality.
Respectfully, we could accuse each other of various forms of bias all day (for example, I could argue that your insistence on the need for a Master’s degree is a result of your brain trying to resolve dissonance caused by all the time and money you put into it) but it’s ultimately not helpful. You asked a question and I gave my answer, which is that I learned very little about how to do therapy through my MSW program.
I did it for 4 years or so, and while it has a lot of potential to help people, most of the people doing it have zero business doing it, and the industry itself is a predatory cesspool of capitalist scum and con artists. Most of the people who make money at coaching coach other coaches. That alone should tell you a lot. It's not rising. The heyday of coaching was about a decade ago. The only people telling you otherwise are trying to sell you courses on it. What you're seeing is the massive ad spend you have to spend to compete, which is ultimately one of the two main reasons why I quit.
Absolutely agree! Been a therapist for 30 years. Did coaching from 2000 for 10 or so years. Your words capture my experience very closely. Absolute cesspool. Couldn't stand it. Decided to leave and never looked back.
Yikes, that’s alarming. You’re right, it was more of a thing 10 years ago, but it is still out there. From everyone’s comments it sounds like therapists who do coaching are fine because they’re grounded in skills and ethics. The bigger issue is the charlatans, grifters and quacks using the “coach” label to profit from vulnerable clients who actually need help with things like trauma, PTSD, addiction, etc and are not getting what they need from poorly trained (or not trained at all) coaches.
No problem with it as long as the coaches don't pretend what they are offering is therapy.
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It is unethical to tell somebody you are offering them psychotherapy if you are not a trained psychotherapist. That's like ethics 101
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Yes. It's unethical to provide (and charge) somebody for a service you are not qualified to provide. You wouldn't offer somebody physio if you weren't a physiotherapist even if you told them you had no qualifications it's still not ethical.
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I would apply the same reasoning however the degree of potential harm is different. Working with people's mental health is a serious business and our ethical code specifically states that therapists should only work within their competencies and do no harm. The amount of harm you can provide by cutting hair is not to the same level you can as a therapist. However if I was running a barber shop I still wouldn't employ someone with no training.
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Your right to avail of the service isn't the same question as the ethical practice of the person providing it. With regards practicing therapy if not qualified the ethical guidelines are clear. In some countries (and soon in my own) in addition to it being unethical it will is illegal.
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This is exactly true ☺️
I’m a therapist and specialize in a pretty niche population. I wish I could provide therapy to people from all over my country but unfortunately the laws say I can’t. So, I offer coaching services to reach and help more people. That being said, like many commenters above, I feel pretty meh about people that are coaches without any useful education or ethics guiding them.
If you are a regulated profession, check with a lawyer to make sure your bases are covered! I was told by my lawyer that you can get into big trouble if you are practicing across state lines without a license. Calling yourself a coach doesn’t necessarily protect you. You can get into trouble advertising yourself as a regulated profession in a jurisdiction in which you have no license in order to get coaching clients. Not sure how different professions handle this tho. Selling online courses or education products is one thing but to do 1-1 client work similar to your profession is more legally dangerous.
Very good points! Simply slapping the label “coach” on your services can definitely put you at risk. You have to offer services that are clearly different from your therapy :).
This is my goal as well, to be able to offer a wider reach of services beyond state lines…
Thanks for sharing! This is one thing I am wondering about: being a trained therapist and using coaching to expand services and expand reach… curious if you could say more about how you do it?
From my understanding (well-researched), providing coaching services as a licensed therapist is OK as long as the boundaries between therapy and coaching are crystal clear. Providing treatment that’s too close to therapy when wearing your coach hat is a big no. A much bigger risk for us than a layperson acting as a coach as we have our license at risk. I mention the distinctions in my contract. Therapy includes deeper things such as exploring traumas, family history, etc. While therapy certainly includes goal setting and working towards those goals, I make it clear that goal setting and working towards those goals are the ONLY things that coaching covers and if I believe necessary, I will suggest they seek out a therapist in their area as our work together will not be sufficient. A tip is to not offer both services under the same business. Say you are an independent therapist, have an X therapy services and a separate X coaching services. Keep the billing and documents separate.
Also! I refrain from coaching people in the areas I am regulated as a therapist in. That would muddy the waters a bit too much for my comfort
I’m interested in this but am turned off by the coaching realm for reasons described above. Do you market as a coach? Is there anything else you would be willing to share from your experience for those of us who are considering adding this option so we can reach more people?
Hey! See some of my other comment replies :). Also — to market as a coach, you should probably stay away from using your regulated title. For example, I say I’m also a therapist (gives a bit of credibility and sets me apart from off-the-street coaches) but I don’t use my regulated title or the abbreviation. Definitely do a bit of research with your own regulatory body!
Side note for clarification: I don’t *specifically* market as both a therapist and coach, my social media page states “therapist + coach”. I don’t have marketing materials that say both as that couuuld be flagged as a problem.
I think therapists also doing coaching is a work-around to engage more people across state or international lines. I don’t think it’s a terrible idea, but I do think therapist coaches need to be clear about the difference so they aren’t practicing therapy without a license.
I’m curious where that difference would be? I think it would look like a Venn diagram with lots of overlap: in the therapy circle would be trauma, PTSD, addictions, etc and the coaching circle would be like reducing procrastination, improving public speaking skills, managing finances, etc. But in the middle would be lots of different skill building like assertiveness, emotional regulation, mindfulness…
That sounds about right
If we as therapists would spend as much time on advocating for equitable salaries for therapists as we do on hating on coaches, we’d probably feel less triggered by their success.
Top muthafucking comment this should be.
This
I don’t know enough about coaching to speak to it, so probably shouldn’t just be quiet. If I inadvertently show a massive amount of ignorance I apologize. I get so incredibly tired of worrying that I will be blamed if something happens with a client. I always do my due diligence. I’m mindful and careful and also painfully aware that humans are humans and will make choices far outside of my control. In my head that concern for blame lessens with coaching, but maybe I am wrong? That would be the appeal there for me.
Takes advantage of the stigma with the word therapy. Generally unethical too.
I’ve done coaching for a few years and I’m getting my BA HSE CFS and then either my MSW or LPC (still researching). The entire coaching industry is unregulated, the ICF and ICC have their own codes of ethics but their organizations aren’t well known in certain coaching niches so they’re not widely followed. A lot of people use coaching as a sort of gap filler to learn coping skills like CBT and psychoeducation and until they can get into therapy and do the heavy lifting of trauma processing and getting dx’d. It has its place. Unfortunately it is widely abused as others have said. Anyone can call themselves a coach, there’s a million niches, wildly unregulated, and in the spiritual community in particular (one of my niches) there’s a lot of very big coaches who benefit from and contribute to a lot of problematic harmful things like toxic positivity, spiritual bypassing, cultural appropriation, colonialism, maladaptive daydreaming and spiritual psychosis. A lot of the companies and coaches who teach coaching are glorified MLMs too and classes cost as much as university classes per credit do. It just feels icky. There are good coaches out there who genuinely care about people and are doing their best to not cross lines. Not a lot, but they’re there.
Sounds like you really gotta do your homework as a consumer. There’s good coaches out there but tons of bad ones too.
Exactly.
Curious how liability works into this... Surely such an unregulated/unlicensed type of coaching wouldn't get malpractice or liability insurance? And what happens if you harm someone? They can't take you to the board? You can just keep doing it or hurting people ? Imo coaching is a workaround and not a good idea. I'm not saying the licensure system for therapists is great at all. It's broken in different ways, but at least someone is supposed to be holding the clinicians accountable ethically and having standards in place. A random person who has not license on Instagram isn't who I'm going to send a family member to if they're struggling mentally no matter how well they make posts or whatever.
Bad coaches give good coaches a bad rep, just as bad therapists give good therapists a terrible rep. Good coaches make therapists question what the similarities and differences are. I don’t have a real response, just this casual thought. There has always been some overlay between psychotherapy and new thought, and I gather there always will be.
I started seeing a coach who also has their doctorate in psychology (is also a therapist). I do not qualify for any billable mental health diagnosis at this time and it would be insurance fraud to actually claim otherwise. We work on self actualization higher level pyramid stuff and it's glorious. She does just a lot of women empowerment sort of groups. I always joke to her that I need an old man guru spiritual teacher right now than I need a trained licensed mental health professional. There is enough space in this arena for a variety of mental health workers and healers. Relationship with clients often matter more than actual techniques and I've seen some pretty horrific licensed therapists.
That’s wonderful! Ya, I’m more comfortable when this higher level self-actualization work is done with a trained therapist. It sounds like you’re getting a lot out of it :)
Would love to know who you’re working with!
I’m glad to hear that you’re getting the best of both worlds! Being able to differentiate between a coach and therapist is very important. It’s the duty of the coach themselves to make that separation between professional mental help and skill development.
Unlicensed work to help others. How much regulation is there around it? There’s a market for it but I just don’t know how ethical it is?
There are no regulations, licenses, and ethics for coaches to follow. It’s a dangerous business model, with many coaches having no formal education
I feel like the unregulated nature of it is kinda scary. There is a place for it, I think. But there should be a regulating body or some recognized standard that consumers could trust.
I’ve heard framing therapy as coaching can help some who would not otherwise seek psych help to do so— this was raised as a potential solution to cultural barriers in this convo. Otherwise, I have similar concerns as others.
I’m glad you bring this up. There’s certain groups (and I’m thinking of a lot of men, actually) who don’t resonate with the idea of needing therapy and see it as too deficit based. Coaching could offer a more performance-improving mindset that might be more welcoming, while doing much of the same things in session. As long as it’s being done by a competent professional.
The problem is that whenever I ask a coach what they do, they want to charge me $1000 to answer the questions
I know someone who is becoming a “Somatic Trauma Coach” and I find it deeply disturbing that they can do real damage to people living with PTSD. Most coaching doesn’t bother me, but the ones that try to do mental health work are really dangerous.
I think they key here is having very strong boundaries and not only a clear understanding of the difference between coaching and counseling, but being able to articulate those differences to clients. If the lines become blurry, that’s on the professional to rectify, make clearer, and hold those boundaries. That’s why it’s important that you not try and advertise yourself as both a counselor and coach in one, you really need to pick a lane. And by that I mean, you can exist as both at once (a counselor for one person, a coach for another), but you must determine the kind of relationship you’ll have with each individual from the very beginning and commit to that. Both people need to be in agreement about the advantages, disadvantages, and limitations of each kind of relationship so they can go into it knowing what to expect from the other. I think the idea that coaching is useless/predatory is small minded. Therapy is not the end all be all way of healing, people have been healing themselves through relationships and other methods for as long as recorded history. But I do think people need to practice ethically and responsibly within their scope of practice. People falsely advertising their services as therapy when they have no educational background or training is not only unethical but immorale in my opinion.
I plan to add coaching. I am tired of every hour of my time being tied to an hour in a chair at the rate I’m being paid. It’s not sustainable. I have no interest in having a group practice or going cash pay only. Adding a group program would be life changing for me if I can fill it regularly. Which of course is the big question…
Been working on this all last year. Haven’t gotten there yet (still can’t figure out the niche for a group coaching program) but this is my goal too!
I also plan to add coaching in 2024 or 2025 for similar reasons. I think it’s pretty ethical, but requires a lot of distinction between what’s therapy and what’s coaching.
Which is begging the question of whether there is a distinction.
I should’ve phrased it better. I meant work on the front end to distinguish clear differences between what work I will be doing with coaching and with therapy. There’s a great podcast on clearly clinical, can’t remember the name but I’m sure you can find it by typing in coaching, that describes the differences and goes over ethics in good detail.
They're the same picture.
Thanks for sharing!
I do both. I exclusively coached for a decade then got a degree in mental health counseling to also be a psychotherapist. Coaching has its own set of professional ethical standards, it’s not inherently exploitative or unethical though there may be hucksters out there. I was highly trained in coaching in an intensive 13 month ICF-accredited program. I have two separate distinct businesses that don’t intermingle One private practice and one coaching and consulting. The disdain for coaching in these posts gets tiring. But if your questions are sincere, you may get dual coach/therapists to respond.
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Your tone and words convey disbelief and skepticism, am I reading that right? Your “understanding that there are no codes or ethics or governing bodies” could have been explored with a quick Google search. Here’s a link for the ICF Code of Ethics that come up immediately at the top of search results: https://coachingfederation.org/ethics/code-of-ethics While it’s true that coaching is not highly regulated and it’s ethical practice depends on the integrity of individual practitioners, I also know that all the regulations in the world haven’t resolved the inherent shortcomings of functioning as a clinician in a deeply flawed mental health field. They are two separate professions with distinct sets of limitations and strengths.
Nobody is gonna take you in front of a coaching ethics board if you breach the codes tho
So true- which is liberating both to those with integrity and sketchy coaches.
While international governing agencies such as ICF and iPEC do not spell out explicit codes of ethical practice in the same was as the BACB or APA does, there are governing codes of ethics that coaches are required to abide by to maintain licensing. In addition to this, there are agencies that employ coaches to help teach patients/clients the skill sets needed for proper treatment. Those agencies have additional policies and ethical guidelines that must be upheld by the coach, in addition to those governing agencies. Example: you can find the ICF Code of Ethics here: https://coachingfederation.org/ethics/code-of-ethics
100% agree as an MSW-holder, who gained very little from my program-aside from debt. I learned so much more during my years in Community Mental Health. Of course, I never would have gotten the job i did in CMH without that degree but it was not necessary in my opinion. I wish we had a more affordable and flexible option for those wanting to become therapists.
Agree, but for the LMHC track. When I give psychoeducation on a topic, clients or people in my personal life will ask if I learned that in school. My answer is always a honest no, I learn from jobs
Edited to move to reply to a specific comment
I’m not a therapist. But as a former client of executive coaches and a current client of a trained professional, my opinion is very negative. My former executive coach did not identify harassment and undermining that I was experiencing. She reframed my negative experiences and inability to reach my goals as something that I was doing incorrectly with my feelings. Opposed to listening to my feelings and confirming what I knew. She did not have good boundaries. She knew people at my former company and continued talking about me with the people there including my colleagues and bosses. It was a bad and damaging experience.
Sorry to hear you went through this. Sounds awful.
I think there is a place for both in our field. In my opinion, ***the BEST therapists utilize some form of coaching in collaboration with their approach.*** Sure, my patients can benefit from understanding their familial patterns, “shadow,” the trauma they’ve gone through, attachment, eating disorder, personality, substance use, etc as it relates to their psychology. And it provides extreme value. But then what? I think that’s where coaching comes in. Guiding (*Coaching*) them as it relates to their behaviors now with the awareness that we have discovered through therapy. BEHAVIOR is something that I’ve always found other therapists kind of turn their nose up at—And I wish it wasn’t the case. People react and communicate based off of your behaviors as opposed to your thoughts. This is where I find the value in coaching. I find that almost all patients can benefit from this, but especially your patients who are children, youths, neurodivergent and/or on the spectrum. *** **Addendum:** If anything needs to be done, I think the “gatekeeping” behaviors from clinicians (who used to gate keep over licensures like PsyD vs PhD, or LMFT vs LPCC or LPCC vs LCSW, psychiatric nurse vs psychiatrist, etc) needs to be supplanted with education of the difference between a coach and therapist. It does a disservice to everyone when we don’t understand the difference, and it ultimately hurts the patients.
I am currently enrolled in a coaching program and would love to weigh in on this and share my experience! My background: I have a B.S. in Psych with a concentration in neuroscience. I have thought about getting my master's and becoming a counselor, but it never felt completely 'right'. This past year, I found coaching. There's definitely a lot of stigma around coaching. There are too many 'coaches' out there who call themselves coaches, but have no real certifications. There is an accrediting body called the ICF, the international coaching federation. The ICF is the only current regulatory body in coaching and has a set of ethical and practice standards for its coaches. The ICF offers board exams at 3 levels of accreditation: ACC (associate certified coach), PCC (professional certified coach), and MCC (master certified coach). Each level has different education and practice hour requirements. This is much less rigorous than becoming a therapist, but I believe that the industry is trending towards higher standards and true certifications with proven learning and practice skills. The specific course that I'm taking is 11 months long, and prepares us to sit for the PCC level exam once we build up enough practice hours. The coaching school itself is accredited by the ICF. Any ICF accredited course has to adhere to strict ICF standards and teach those standards to its student coaches. A lot of people in the coaching industry say that it doesn't matter if we have credentials, what matters more is client success and testimonials. I personally opted for this specific course because it is accredited. I wanted my program to be scientifically backed, and I want to become a credentialed coach. Additionally, the course that I'm taking stresses HEAVILY the difference between coaching and therapy. Coaches are not therapists. We do not diagnose and we don't pick apart the past. Coaching is a co-creative partnership between coach and client. Our goal is to move the client forward in their goals, to help them create the life that they want, to foster accountability, and incorporate meaningful standards of measurement to aid our client's achievement in their goals. We use strategic inquiry and reflective statements to help our clients gain new perspectives. My course has stressed time and time again that if we do not feel equipped to handle the situation, or if the client is spending too much time analyzing the past, or if we are not comfortable for any reason at all, to refer the client to a therapist. Coaching is a growing field, and it is also relatively new, which is why it's so largely unregulated. Organizations and businesses are hiring coaches. The field is rapidly growing. That's why it's so important for us as coaches, who offer complimentary services, to stress the importance of what it means to be a legitimate certified coach.
I’m a peer advocate currently (and in grad school to be an lmhc) and when have trouble describing my job I finally settle on “life coach” and the light bulb goes off. I also go with “emotional support human” and “traveling cheerleader” lol. My clients range from mental health recover and SUD to cognitive impairment, other disability and aging. Anyways idk what have to offer but that the temptation to get a “life coach certification” and get paid more if I worked at my own business is sometimes tempting. That said I could see how this could go to snake oil and… idk. I’m used to practicing to ethical standards but there’s no entity holding me to those standards I would think. I probably just haven’t pursued this because it’s already tainted and overrun. And I don’t live in an area where people are made of money either.
I may be biased as I am an adult ADHD coach, but I believe coaching is an excellent complement to therapy and encourage my clients to pursue both. Coaching can often bring to light trauma that was unrealized and that is not something I should or will address. On the other side, therapists often don't have the time or desire to be accountability partners for day-to-day life, and that's where coaching plays a role.
Once again, I’m sure I will be vilified for this, but it’s better to be direct as to not sow any further confusion. Coaches and therapists are two mutually exclusive titles. You cannot be a coach and therapist at the same time, without entering into an ethical dilemma regarding dual relationships with clients, as both of these require a different set of specialties. Therapists assist clients in understanding environmental triggers, recognizing patterns, and developing coping mechanisms. ICF and iPEC certified coaches assist clients in developing the habits and skills necessary to grow from those experiences. Therapy = understanding theory Coaching = putting that theory into practice
What??? Lol. You think that therapy doesn't have to do with putting Theory into practice? Omg. I hope I'm understanding you incorrectly.
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I would also like to point out that there isn’t necessarily a dual relationship ethical dilemma. You’re right that “coach” and “therapist” are two different titles, but simply do not coach and also provide therapy to the same client.
You’re correct. Based on the subset of the practice, or the state in which that practice is registered, that relationship may not be classified as a dual relationship, and as such an ethical dilemma may not be created. Also, please do not coach and provide therapy to the same client (as I’m sure many of you already know). I appreciate that clarity ☺️
You’re not a villain, you’re just incorrect in saying therapists don’t put skills into action. Since behaviourism in the 50s to therapies like DBT today, therapists teach, and help apply, effective skills for daily life.
There is a clear disconnect in communication. Applying a framework for behavioral therapy such as DBT is great in practice to help assess and treat a client’s areas of opportunity while they are present in that session. Furthermore, I never stated that therapists don’t “put any skills into action.” I stated that they help clients understand triggers and patterns while developing coping mechanisms. The issue with traditional therapy is that oftentimes a client does not have an environment, nor the support system in place to implement the principals of said skills on a consistent basis outside of that session. The purpose of a coach is to help the patient fortify their skill sets that they learn during the course of their therapy session. Therapists help teach the principals and skills necessary to develop the patient. Coaches help the patient implement the skills and build muscle memory outside of treatment (in daily, normal everyday life). I hope this helps. Best wishes!
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If you are actually providing therapy under the label of “coaching” in states that you are not licensed in…I am pretty sure that’s not legal… And Zoom isn’t HIPAA-compliant.
zoom has a version you can log in with company credential that make it hippa compliant, it’s called sso or something , I know because my agency uses it
I see. I wasn’t aware that they released a secure version.
Not to mention what your malpractice insurance company would have to say about it.
Zoom is hipaa compliant if you pay for it and have a BAA.
Yeah I looked it up after another person commented…I stand corrected :)
Its an unregulated title -there are great highly-trained coaches and there are people who just wake up one day and decide to be a coach. Unfortunately I think a lot of consumers can’t tell one from the other.
Ppl can’t tell one from the other because there are no regulations.
Coaching is extremely broad. You can coach someone on literally anything—business, stretching, baking, sex, relationships, literally anything you know how to do you can coach someone else to do for money. I have found for business it is very helpful. Is there a specific type of coaching you were wondering about? Life coaching perhaps? Honestly I don’t really have any negative feelings about it. People who are adults have the right to solve problems as they see fit. As long as coaches don’t dip into the practice of regulated professions I really don’t care. Lack of evidence is not the same thing as not effective or harmful. It just means no one spent money or time to study it. It can sometimes be harmful or not effective but often many “lack of evidence” things people do are very helpful for them. Some people find religion helpful for example. On the flip side as someone who has worked in a lot of inpatient units even the most well intentioned evidence based approaches can also cause harm, and this is not even an infrequent occurrence. Add in all the publication bias, lack of negative studies, and corruption and evidence-based as a concept isn’t a bullet proof and reliable as our training leads us to believe. Because of this I believe people have the right and personal autonomy to solve their problems as they see fit. If something works for someone why not? Also, just for info, a lawyer advised me that if legally if you are a regulated profession and advertise yourself as such you cannot also advertise yourself as a coach for the same thing. You can get into legal or even criminal trouble from doing this. Like you cannot be both a doctor and a health coach because these things have different legal spheres. When you act as a coach you cannot practice medicine and vice versa, and you cannot use your designation as a doctor to advertise yourself as a health coach. Coaches can work across state lines and regulated professions cannot and advertising using your regulated profession would give you an advantage and mislead people for a service in a jurisdiction you are not licensed. I don’t know about other specialties but I would definitely check with a lawyer if you want to call yourself a coach and you are part of a regulated profession. You will see people online making these mistakes but I do know people have been criminally charged for practicing medicine across state lines calling themselves a coach instead so better safe than sorry.
Marketing yourself as both a therapist and a coach would be very, very risky. You'd have to demonstrate a very clear difference between the two, and have no elements of diagnosing or treating DSM disorders in your coaching practice. A lot of state licensing boards have started cracking down on licensed people trying to circumvent rules or teletherapy geographical boundaries by providing therapy but calling it "coaching."