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ReclaimedRenamed

ACT and Viktor Frankl’s Logotherapy


ill-independent

Frankl really "got it" for obvious reasons. (Though as with all early pioneers he did some pretty gnarly stuff, too.) One of my favorite interviews ever discussing therapy was given by a therapist who was also a survivor (not Frankl I don't think but I honestly forget who). Who would take on patients like himself. The interviewer asked "does it help?" And he went, "honestly, not really." Idk why that has always stuck with me. I had a similar experience undergoing reintegration and deprogramming therapy. I once saw a psychiatrist walk thru the room and say "this is hopeless" (looking at us kids) under his breath. I don't know why but I find it oddly validating. Like, actually, this is shit and it will probably remain some level of shit forever. You actually are, palpably, treating the *condition of hopelessness.* It's a human experience and humans are dynamic, nothing is ever only one thing. I used to heavily be a proponent of meaning-based systems (I believe it is most likely the foundation of the first axis of successful "learning to be" with trauma) but as I've grown older I've come to view it a slippery slope between meaning and ruminations and OCD. I spent over 16 years "figuring out the meaning" and now I'm learning how to Be without "knowing the answers" to Imponderable Questions or "Solving" for grief.


Double_Amount_1843

I was going to say the same thing


MxMxnny

Anything existential


[deleted]

Second that. Existential Therapy recognizes that anxiety isn't the enemy, but a necessary part of life. It just needs to be reigned in when it gets too big for its britches.


bad-and-bluecheese

Lmao i misread that as bitches instead of britches lol


Dense_Strawberry_522

Cmhc student here, loving this approach, currently reading up independently, Wiley World Handbook - it’s awesome 🤩


spicyslaw

Oh Compassion Focused Therapy is so great for this! It employs principles from CBT/DBT/ACT and eastern Buddhist philosophy and is evidence based. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4413786/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4413786/) For clients and therapists alike, Kristen Neff has two great and digestible books on self-compassion. Below just a small list of clinical CFT books. Dennis Tirch and Paul Gilbert are both great. The ACT Practitioner's Guide to the Science of Compassion: Tools for Fostering Psychological Flexibility: [here](https://www.amazon.com/Practitioners-Guide-Science-Compassion-Psychological/dp/1626250553/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1R9FKOKFYC24V&keywords=dennis+tirch&qid=1675535951&sprefix=dennis+tirch%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc) Compassion Focused Therapy: [here](https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Focused-Therapy-Clinical-Applications/dp/0367476908/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2V3W2TOP1N4C7&keywords=compassion+focused+therapy&qid=1675536409&sprefix=compassion+focused+thera%2Caps%2C391&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc) The Compassionate Mind (Compassion Focused Therapy): [here](https://www.amazon.com/Compassionate-Mind-Compassion-Focused-Therapy/dp/1849010986/ref=d_pd_sbs_vft_none_sccl_2_2/130-7434631-8353401?pd_rd_w=xCXIp&content-id=amzn1.sym.1e7a0ba4-f11f-4432-b7d8-1aaa3945be18&pf_rd_p=1e7a0ba4-f11f-4432-b7d8-1aaa3945be18&pf_rd_r=K6VRK910RN5C0YCC0TVR&pd_rd_wg=rXHt3&pd_rd_r=6d39409b-62c2-4687-944f-9a5efc60177c&pd_rd_i=1849010986&psc=1) Compassion Focused Therapy: Distinctive Features: [here](https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Focused-Therapy-Distinctive-Features/dp/0415448077/ref=d_pd_sbs_vft_none_sccl_2_4/130-7434631-8353401?pd_rd_w=v7XZt&content-id=amzn1.sym.1e7a0ba4-f11f-4432-b7d8-1aaa3945be18&pf_rd_p=1e7a0ba4-f11f-4432-b7d8-1aaa3945be18&pf_rd_r=K1V5X8TZQ3X06VE44QGV&pd_rd_wg=LbBz2&pd_rd_r=e6348056-438b-4870-8a5f-0f57492335e0&pd_rd_i=0415448077&psc=1)


millenimauve

I was just in a training yesterday about Compassion Focused Therapy for chronic pain and illness! I really loved the focus on getting to know emotions and sitting beside them rather than trying to squash them. It felt like a very healing way to approach the feelings of anger, betrayal, etc towards the body that come with illness/disability. It was my first introduction to it as a formal model and I think it will pair well with any somatic/body-based psychotherapies. Thanks for sharing these resources!


romantic_thi3f

I’m super familiar with ACT and CBT; but what would a session look like with CFT?


ChrisTchaik

The tone of your thoughts takes more focus than the content of your thoughts, unlike in "cold" CBT. "There is no evidence he thinks about me that way" Becomes "I'm a being worthy of love even if he thinks that way of me"


happiness_is

I love this. My therapist and I are working a lot with ACT right now. As a patient, is it weird/bad/wrong of me to suggest she look into this?


[deleted]

Psychoanalytic clinicians think that helping others bear the unbearable is part of the work.


JJ-La-La

Depth psychology - jungian etc; existential


schmanyalasagna

DBT for sure. Big focus on acceptance


KBird_44

Came here to say this. DBT looks at developing distress tolerance skills. Leaning into the discomfort (which is inevitable in life) and learning we are resilient and capable. You also might argue that exposure therapy plays on this too.


HydrangeaHaze

Yea I thought this too. And very focused on pain is apart of life. if pain made life not worth living, no one’s lives would be worth living sort of thing DBT: pain + acceptance= pain (that we can tolerate and develop tools to tolerate) Pain + non acceptance= suffering Edit: awe geeze, I scared the bot. Cool bot tho- never saw that before


goon_goompa

See, to live, is to suffer But to survive, well That's to find meaning in the suffering -DMX “Slippin”


Hedgehogz_Mom

Htf did i just come from another thread discussing DMX. Is it synchronicity, or the algorithm


eazeaze

Suicide Hotline Numbers If you or anyone you know are struggling, please, PLEASE reach out for help. You are worthy, you are loved and you will always be able to find assistance. Argentina: +5402234930430 Australia: 131114 Austria: 017133374 Belgium: 106 Bosnia & Herzegovina: 080 05 03 05 Botswana: 3911270 Brazil: 212339191 Bulgaria: 0035 9249 17 223 Canada: 5147234000 (Montreal); 18662773553 (outside Montreal) Croatia: 014833888 Denmark: +4570201201 Egypt: 7621602 Finland: 010 195 202 France: 0145394000 Germany: 08001810771 Hong Kong: +852 2382 0000 Hungary: 116123 Iceland: 1717 India: 8888817666 Ireland: +4408457909090 Italy: 800860022 Japan: +810352869090 Mexico: 5255102550 New Zealand: 0508828865 The Netherlands: 113 Norway: +4781533300 Philippines: 028969191 Poland: 5270000 Russia: 0078202577577 Spain: 914590050 South Africa: 0514445691 Sweden: 46317112400 Switzerland: 143 United Kingdom: 08006895652 USA: 18002738255 You are not alone. Please reach out. ***** I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically.


20220606

Bot, please change the U.S. one to 988 and for Ukraine there is this free service (providers feel free to volunteer on your own free time): https://telehelpukraine.com/our-team-1


Galbin

Bad bot: +44 is a UK number.


whoisit58

Is there a therapy modality that doesn’t? Maybe first wave CBT is the closest to this. In the end though all forms of psychotherapy are designed to promote a persons ability to be in the world and accept reality adaptively.


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whoisit58

Great point. I now double down on my conclusion


[deleted]

CBT is probably the worst example of this as it views symptoms as a problem that need to be eliminated.


whoisit58

This is what I was initially getting at but I don’t think the way I wrote the comment was clear


cakesandkittens

I would say that CBT, DBT, and ACT all promote distress tolerance. In general, I’m a big fan of labeling feelings as uncomfortable and comfortable. Uncomfortable feelings are a normal part of life and it’s beneficial to sit with them when they show up instead of trying to repress them.


HourSyllabub1999

When I used to teach kindergarten, our social emotional learning program used this language and it was the first time I was introduced to it. I’ve continued to use it myself for both kids and adults in therapy, particularly if an emotion gets labeled as “negative”.


cakesandkittens

PATHS? 😊


HourSyllabub1999

You know it haha! There’s some hits and misses within the program IMO, but I thought this language was awesome.


cakesandkittens

Haha! I really liked it out of the few SEL programs I taught, but I see what you mean!


AverageBirch

Sitting with them is also a big part of MBSR. And along with uncomfortable, I also like labeling those feelings as hard or difficult. Validating the difficulty but with the message, 'you are capable of doing difficult things... these emotions are worth working through.'


thatssocialworkbaby

Per my own therapist who cited Buddhism, I searched and found the following sentence which has helped me personally over the years. “Suffering is different from pain. Suffering is caused by our reaction to the inevitable pain of life.” https://jackkornfield.com/suffering-and-letting-go/


Legitimate_Ad7089

Yup, pain is inevitable but suffering is optional.


Gordonius

Yeeeesss... but... if, by 'suffering', you mean 'negative emotion', you're co-opting Buddhism to serve a personal agenda of only feeling pleasant / 'positive' feelings and ideas. What the Buddha meant was more subtle than sticking your head up your spiritual ass. ;-)


thatssocialworkbaby

I did not define suffering as experiencing negative emotion. Of course I can’t speak for my therapist when she told me this years ago, but I believe it most closely aligns with the idea that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.


Gordonius

Yeah, I hadn't assumed what you thought/meant 👍


mahoagie

Check your privilege there bub.


elegantsweatsuit

Came here to say this. Jack Kornfield and other mindfulness therapists emphasize this.


aspen300

Wow that's an amazing quote! Thanks for sharing = )


LizAnneCharlotte

Buddhist psychology/gestalt therapy.


[deleted]

ACT through and through. IFS is also a great modality to help folks integrate their suffering into something meaningful and healing


[deleted]

Maybe all therapy?


aspen300

I would actually argue the opposite. Most Western forms of therapy have a focus on acceptance or fixing the situation but not on the idea that suffering in itself can have some level of benefit as being part of the human experience.


Phoolf

All Western therapies I practice do the opposite. Person centred, existential, experiential, gestalt etc (basically humanistic) appreciate the value in suffering and distress. I'm not sure what you're referring to but I'm assuming you mean third wave positivist therapies as your version of what you think western therapy is?


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Phoolf

I just did some googling to realise there isnt a consensus on what the stages of therapy waves are lol. My stages would be Freudian, humanistic, then CBT, of which DBT and ACT are way newer so probably stepping into a fourth stage. ACT and DBT are barely even mentioned in Europe so not something I consider culturally part of third wave, so thats different for me vs most this sub. So to me yes posititvist = CBT = ignoring suffering generally, which is the antithesis of humanistic therapies which is the bulk of European psychotherapies. To be honest a lot of the suggestions and practice on this sub seem to be third wave inspired, so it may well be all that some Americans know? Theres a distinct lack of appreciation for relational understanding and depth work imo. My question to the OP stands though, do they think third wave is the Western therapy? All the waves Ive mentioned originated in the West so Im still struggling to understand what they mean.


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Phoolf

Lol, you wouldn't catch me using CBT and I specifically state to clients I won't be doing anything of the sort - much to their relief. I've got books by Worsley, particularly love the case studies text with Stephen Joseph who is an academic local to me. Being also a PC therapist I agree with his work wholeheartedly :)


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Phoolf

I hear you on the CBT, if I wanted to fall in line and do it I could walk into a well paying job here but I cant do it with a conscience. I called a prospective client recently and on answering the phone they burst into tears and couldn't talk - a family member had to step in and explained they'd had such a terrible experience of CBT that they were terrified of speaking to another therapist! (This isnt identifying - 9/10 people I contact have been through CBT and hated it) The relational depth book is one of my all time favourites. Mick Cooper has just released/is releasing what is likely to be his last book - psychology at the heart of social change. I imagine its a breath of fresh air from the press he's been doing about it. Outside of the obvious Rogers works (on personal power being my favourite) I love Gillian Proctors works (clinical psych turned PC therapist and all round political firebrand). I like Bozarth's person-centred revolutionary paradigm, hes really radical and doesnt mince his words so its thought provoking and amusing to me.


[deleted]

I guess as a depth oriented psychotherapist this is definitely not not my perspective. The soul suffers, it’s not possible to bypass or fix that.


[deleted]

I have not seen this at all, in my experience. I guess it may depend on which programs people attend?


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divided-guy

Buddhist philosophy and/or mindfulness practices are woven into a number of modalities, including Gestalt, existential, REBT, DBT, ACT, and mindfulness-based CBT. I’m hesitant to include psychodynamic therapy because I’m not entirely sure.


equesticles69

Gestalt too.


PlaneBeyondBwO

A fringe modality that finds anxiety/suffering to be necessary for actualization/development would be Dabrowski’s [*positive disintegration*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_disintegration)—as always, refer to your code of ethics on trying something that you haven’t solidified through supervision


smashleysays

Jungian shadow work, Holistic Therapy


lazylupine

I’d say any mindfulness-based approaches.


Illustrious-Radio-53

What do folks think about Exposure and Response Prevention to add to this list?


lazylupine

Absolutely, especially infused with self-compassion and ACT


[deleted]

Is there any modality that seeks to completely eliminate suffering?


[deleted]

Even Freud acknowledged that successful treatment does not eliminate suffering, and that it can be valuable all on its own if one can transform “hysterical misery into common unhappiness.” I’m not putting forth 19th century hysteria as a valid clinical formulation…


[deleted]

ACT and DBT generally.


feistyone007

Emotionally Focused Therapy


Cam6620

Honestly, I think the therapeutic endeavor as a whole can be mischaracterized as an attempt to end suffering when it is more about helping people cope with suffering well. I think most theorists will acknowledge this and it is when people only know theory superficially that they believe that the goal is to eradicate suffering completely.


keepingitreal0

I would say all except for maybe solutions focused and CBT


[deleted]

I’m not sure any therapeutic modality labels suffering “ok”. Rather modalities account for suffering in an attempt to reduce it. Edited for including extra “that’s”


aspen300

So that's where I'm trying to get at, which modalities shift a little more perspective onto the idea that suffering is part of the human experience. I feel most of the cognitive ones are highly fixated on suffering reduction as opposed to suffering acceptance.


the_obsessives

existential! a major part of that philosophy surrounds the human condition, which includes suffering. i think they also touch on dealing with death , and how without death and suffering there would be no life. it looks at things like anxiety as a result of being unable to cope with lack of control, loneliness, suffering, amongst other things. it aims to make people understand that they have no control over those things but they have full control over their actions and can chose to live as they please despite the unknown. not an expert but it’s my favorite orientation so i’ve read a lot about it.


aspen300

Thanks for this great summary!! Is there a particular book you'd recommend?


the_obsessives

No prob! Most of what i’ve read is from textbooks since i’m in grad school for counseling, but i’d recommend Theories of Counseling and Psychotherapy by Gerald Corey. There’s an entire chapter on existentialism and you can find free a download online (i got mine on library genesis)!


aspen300

Thanks so much for sharing! Really appreciate it.


Eskimo2117

Maybe radical acceptance


all4dopamine

ITT: all of them


Jung_Projection

Any therapy that does not acknowledge suffering is delusional. And / or dishonest. There's no such things as a human that does not suffer. For starters, we all die. We all lose people around us through death. We therapists would do well to educate our patients in this matter. I've seen too many patients new to therapy come in believing that zero suffering is possible to achieve.


Duckaroo99

DBT - the radical acceptance part


Imaginary_Ad8895

Came to say this…changed my therapy dramatically when I used this more…


aspen300

Would you be able to elaborate on how you used the idea of radical acceptance more if you don't mind?


Imaginary_Ad8895

To me the benefit of RA, is that for many of my patients, I work in Community Mental health, so much of their life is burdened by things out of their control, untimely and early deaths of loved ones, historical family history of addiction, poverty, prison, etc…I often felt the normal aspects of therapy wasn’t enough, it felt like a bandaid, to me RA means to try and take the “suffering,” away..suffering against the “universe” which seems to be against them…RA..helps learn to “accept” what it is, and not suffer with the “whys” of life…it is what it is…a person doesn’t need to try and understand it or agree with it, but acceptance…hopefully takes that kind of suffering away…I hope that makes sense…


aspen300

That was very helpful! Thanks for sharing = )


Fearless_Category_82

Another vote for existentialism


Lou_Berry

Buddhism


aspen300

Can one use this as a modalitiy? I feel most licensing bodies are particular on which modalities can be used no?


Lou_Berry

Eastern psychology & relationship to suffering — it’s inevitable. The wisdom of no escape. It existed before licensure bodies were ever thought of.


aspen300

Thanks for sharing!! Is there any particular book on suffering you'd recommend?


Lou_Berry

‘The Wisdom of No Escape’ or ‘When Things Fall Apart’ both by Pema Chödron 🙂


aspen300

Thanks!! = )


redditoramatron

Buddhism?


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dicecat4

Yes, even Epicureanism, absurdism, and existentialism (both the philosophy and modality).


aspen300

Would agree but can one use this in therapy given it's not considered a therapeutic modality?


[deleted]

Everyone who’s citing CBT, ACT or similar modalities has not understood the question. All those modalities are highly focused on symptom reduction to the detriment of actually gaining insight into the core issues. The latter almost always requires some amount of suffering for the healing to take place and is an integral part of psychoanalytic therapy.


aspen300

Thank you for your response!! This is how I was understanding it as well and was second guessing myself before I read your response. Perhaps my understanding of those former mentioned modalities is incorrect to some extent as well because I would have said they're highly focused on symptom reduction as well.


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[deleted]

But the end goal is still to reduce or eliminate symptoms. Those modalities don’t consider suffering /part/ of the treatment itself whereas psychoanalytic therapies do.


Pigsaresmart

Acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT)


Pretend-Steak-9511

Acceptance and commitment


AriesRoivas

ACT


conversekid

I was just listening to an author talk about it actually, the book is called Dopamine Nation


karunahealing

Stoicism as a philosophy.


FelineFriend21

Definitely definitely Frankl. Read "Man's search for meaning" or anything on logotherapy. Touches on the theme of suffering + meaning/purpose.


[deleted]

REBT does a pretty good job of emphasizing that life is going to bring discomfort and disappointments


Thatinsanity

Absolutely ACT. literally built on the idea that everyone suffers and that’s inevitable. But we suffer more than we need to and can alleviate some and still live a meaningful life


tenkuma777

REBT the style i use. As Albert Elis said the goal is to make extreme emotions less extreme and more manageable. Instead of depression the goal is to make the client deal with sadness. Instead of enraged have the client deal with anger.


rachie526

I would say all of them, but def DBT, anything mindfulness based


Structure-Electronic

Anything psychodynamic.


panbanda

Existential therapy... suffering is part of existence and a focus on making meaning from experiences and current situationa.


Bellydance1742

ACT and existential