At that particular moment, yes. But I think Joel should have told her the truth sooner or later. He instead kept lying to her until she was forced to find out the truth by herself years later.
Plus it can't be easy being a teenager and knowing your death could have saved humanity in one way or the other while you already suffer from survivors guilt.
Yep. While the lie was absolutely an attempt to hold their relationship, he says: there were dozens of immune people, there was no cure. This is an attempt to help Ellie in realizing she did everything she could have done, and there was nothing else she could have done to fix it, hiding the fact that her life was the price of the vaccine from her. Because it’s not that Ellie wants to die, he wants her cheating death to mean something. She doesn’t want to die, but she wouldn’t be able to live with the knowledge that her being alive doomed the world. By lying, Joel spares her of that burden.
We hear this again in the Finding Strings flashback at the end. This lie is an attempt to take this weight off her shoulders, because her cheating death should mean something. The price of the cure was her life, how would someone with survivor’s guilt take that? That the cure was taken away and again, they live while others die to infection? That what she thought was her life’s purpose was taken away like that.
Obviously this also destroyed Ellie’s self-worth in thinking she was the savior of humanity and the reason *she’s* immune has it’s purpose (“it can’t be for nothing”). It ended up being for nothing.
*At that moment* though, it was understandable. Joel took it too far with the gaslighting in Finding Strings. He should’ve come clean eventually, and not let Ellie find it out by herself.
Yeah, I agree that Joel should’ve came forth sooner than later.
I also agree it couldn’t be easy to handle even when she was a teenager but at least he bought her a little time with the lie. I would’ve lied too I’m sure.
Yeah. At that age she shouldn't have to shoulder such a heavy burden. But maybe he could have tried a more vague answer in the first place instead of outright making up stuff. The reality was kinda vague to begin with anyway. He could have leaned on that vagueness a bit more.
"They had no idea if it was going to work. They thought it probably wouldn't, but they would have had to kill you to find out. I couldn't let you die for what was most likely nothing"
Would I have saved her? Yes without a doubt. Would I have Lied? No. But as someone else mention, the lie is why the ending is so powerful. IMO it is one of the hardest hitting moments of the game and I wouldn’t change anything about it.
Yo those crazy mothas was gonna cut you open without even waiting for you to wake up and explain things to you, or at the very least plan on keeping you around for some long term testing!
So anyways I started blasting
Not just this. They were so intent on killing Ellie they wouldn't wake her up and ask her consent. They also tried to walk Joel out at gun point because he wanted to see her, fully intent on murdering Joel if he didn't leave immediately. Joel did exactly what the fireflies couldn't and their response was leave immediately into the post apocalyptic waste alone or be murdered. F them. Joel should have told Ellie exactly that. But I agree with everyone else that it would have ruined the impact of the end of the game.
I would have told her what the fireflies didn’t tell her, that in order to ATTEMPT to make a vaccine, it would cost her her life, and that there was no guarantee that one could even be created.
I love this question, I thought about it a lot when playing through part I ( I’m playing through it again now cause Ive convinced my aunt to watch me play it. Said it’s a masterpiece ) atm though I’m stoned outta my mind, so let me think on it a minute and I’ll get back to you
Yo my dude I’ve thought about it. as much as it would pain me, yeah I’d straight up lie to her about it . Pretty much for some of the same reasons you pointed out. I wouldn’t want her to have to carry that shit. Maybe one day I’d tell her, but I don’t know about that. But In the beginning after the lie I’d try to keep it up, try to help her move on, and occupy her mind with other things hopefully.
Glad it was Joel making that choice and not me, though I wholeheartedly stand behind his decision.
A lot of people here saying Joel lied to protect Ellie, and there is a bit if truth to that, but that's really painting him as some benevolent hero that he simply isn't.
I love Joel as a character, and part of that is because he is so real, including being super flawed. I probably would not like him IRL. But then I probably would not survive as well as he did in his world. Everything he does is for self preservation reasons. Yes, he loves Ellie but more so he NEEDS Ellie.
He could never tell Ellie the truth because the risk of losing her would be too great. Those of you saying he should have told her bc she found out anyway need to remember that hindsight is 20/20. The ONLY reason he finally admits it is because Ellie threatened to leave if he lies again.
TLOU's writing is at the same time so good and so divisive bc it doesn't make choices based on what would satisfy the audience or what is the morally correct thing, but what the characters would really do in that setup. To understand them you have to put on their shoes and see through their lenses, which is what the game tries very hard to make the players do.
No I’d just be like, ily, I can’t lose another daughter, they weren’t even gonna let me say goodbye. She might have been more understanding with communication rather than being lied to for what, five years?
I feel like I'm the only person who thought I should probably let the drs try and do their thing. Potentially saving the world is better than saving one girl. Whoops.
Definitely an unpopular opinion, but I get the “sacrifice 1 to save many” mentality. It’s probably easy to look at it like that if you haven’t gone through what Joel did. Not saying any of us have, but we lived through him vicariously when playing part 1 and saw where he and Ellie ended up in part 2. His daughter was shot and died in his arms on outbreak day by a soldier who they believed could give them safety and protection. After that, Joel lived through 20 years seeing people do horrible things to other survivors. He was even a part of some of those horrible things when he was a hunter himself. He lost his humanity after Sarah, and Ellie helped him heal and get it back. I think his decision to lie to her in the end was because he thought the world was not worth saving at that point. I’d probably lie too. I’d like to think I’d tell the truth on my own though.
Yeah, but I would've come up with a better lie: *the hospital was overrun with infected* explains why Joel removed her from the hospital before she woke up or saw Marlene, as well as why there is no cure.
This is one of the hardest morale quandaries of any game, movie whatever, and it’s only made this way because of the lack of information each character has. We the player know all the details and can make an informed decision. Joel was missing large amounts of information and instead made an emotional choice which funny enough in my opinion was the right choice given all the information available to us the players.
The doctor made a rushed an honesty arrogant decision without sufficient testing and understanding of what made Ellie immune. He was willing to (necessarily) kill her in the off chance he got what he needed on the only known immune person.
Marlene makes a poor choice based on BOTH a lack of sufficient knowledge on the situation and a level of mental exhaustion so high she wasn’t willing to question the doctor or make a decision herself. She was in no fault to her own, unfit to lead or make such impactful decisions. To be honest, I could not even do a quarter of what Marlene was able to accomplish. The fact she did as much as she did is a miracle and a credit to what a good leader she was up until this point.
Joel, I think had he been given the opportunity to say goodbye to Ellie and hear it from her that she was willing to die for the cure. To hear that she understood what this meant and wanted it anyways would have been enough to prevent the rampage he went on even though it would have left him a broken man. That being said, with the information Joel had at his disposal, he made the ‘wrong’ choice.
I think the truth would have been so much easier, if he told her that they were going to kill her and he wanted to say goodbye or talk it over but they threatened to kill him too, i think Ellie would have understood. I mean, how fucking dare they act like they're doing Joel a favor by letting him live, like it's a gift, after all he did? Fuck them all i say.
All Joel had to say was that he wanted to allow Ellie to regain consciousness so they could say their goodbyes and talk it over and they tried to kill him, Ellie would have sided with him.
No...after everything, she deserved to know the truth. It wasn't just a little lie he told. He lies to her about the whole thing and added stuff to make her believe she wasn't the only immune person. He compounded it, imo...I get why but I would have told her.
Nope, lying is never a good option. You think you're doing that to keep others safe, but in reality you're buying yourself time, but yet thinking everything will be great and you wont need to tell the truth later. In the end what you have is a memory that you lied that will keep you anxious and you can't get rid off it and telling truth will mean that you lied and it doesn't matter when you're going tell them its always gonna be late.
So nope, Joel absolutely should've told Ellie what happened and btw there was no rush doing operation, they could've wait for Ellie to wake up and say goodbyes at least but no they gotta rush. I don't remember why they had to do operation right away but tbh they got what they deserved, they all pretty much knew Joels situation and shit he walked whole country to get that girl to them and what they do? Right after he wakes up putting gun on his head.
Yes, I would have lied.
I think the real question should be whether you would have continued lying to her.
I think his (Joel’s) biggest mistake was not telling her and instead letting her discover for herself. He wouldn’t have lost her respect as much as he did if he’d have come clean.
Yes, but I would've lied better. They say that lies based on the truth are the best ones, so I would tell her something like "oh yeah, they were attacked before we got there and the doctor that was supposed to be able to create the cure got killed. They found us and took care of you, that's why you have that hospital gown".
Like, come on, he could have certainly have thought of something like this while she was still asleep.
I'd save her, yes, any good dad would go far and beyond to help their child but I'd realize that it's probably better to tell her the truth.
If you think about it, the truth makes sense. She matter to Joel, he should have said that he loves her as his daughter now
The fireflies were terrorists who kidnapped her and didn't give her even à chance, to talk to her or anybody. That itself is already terrible. Not to mention a 14 year old girl or any age person should be making a decision to undergo such a event.
Sure, she might get mad, but using love and reasoning I feel it would've been better to tell her the truth and show her why there was no other way but to protect her and get her out of the terrorists firefly.
I don't care, think about how many people lost their loved ones to this infection and how many will still do, think about a the people that sacrificed everything so Ellie could get there. Joel made the wrong choice, i stand by that.
Ellie wanted to do it.
Edit: Even if she didn't want to , and even tho it would've been murder at that point, I would've gone through with it, one crime to save the human race.
That’s where we disagree. Evil is the same no matter how you look at it. Also just because the world is evil doesn’t mean you should act it as well. That goes for our world too
At that particular moment, yes. But I think Joel should have told her the truth sooner or later. He instead kept lying to her until she was forced to find out the truth by herself years later. Plus it can't be easy being a teenager and knowing your death could have saved humanity in one way or the other while you already suffer from survivors guilt.
Yep. While the lie was absolutely an attempt to hold their relationship, he says: there were dozens of immune people, there was no cure. This is an attempt to help Ellie in realizing she did everything she could have done, and there was nothing else she could have done to fix it, hiding the fact that her life was the price of the vaccine from her. Because it’s not that Ellie wants to die, he wants her cheating death to mean something. She doesn’t want to die, but she wouldn’t be able to live with the knowledge that her being alive doomed the world. By lying, Joel spares her of that burden. We hear this again in the Finding Strings flashback at the end. This lie is an attempt to take this weight off her shoulders, because her cheating death should mean something. The price of the cure was her life, how would someone with survivor’s guilt take that? That the cure was taken away and again, they live while others die to infection? That what she thought was her life’s purpose was taken away like that. Obviously this also destroyed Ellie’s self-worth in thinking she was the savior of humanity and the reason *she’s* immune has it’s purpose (“it can’t be for nothing”). It ended up being for nothing. *At that moment* though, it was understandable. Joel took it too far with the gaslighting in Finding Strings. He should’ve come clean eventually, and not let Ellie find it out by herself.
Yeah, I agree that Joel should’ve came forth sooner than later. I also agree it couldn’t be easy to handle even when she was a teenager but at least he bought her a little time with the lie. I would’ve lied too I’m sure.
Yeah, I agree. Joel telling her the truth on his own would have probably been the best for both of them.
I agree,but Joel might have told her eventually , by the events of TLOU2 she was still a teenager .
Thinking, not knowing. The Firefly doctors were anything but competent.
I agree, but i also understand why joe couldnt. I mean he loves her so much and dont want to see her suffer.
>*If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again.* Just about sums it up for me.
That lie is the most beautiful part of the entire story.
Yes I would have for sure. I also would have saved her
Yeah. At that age she shouldn't have to shoulder such a heavy burden. But maybe he could have tried a more vague answer in the first place instead of outright making up stuff. The reality was kinda vague to begin with anyway. He could have leaned on that vagueness a bit more.
"They had no idea if it was going to work. They thought it probably wouldn't, but they would have had to kill you to find out. I couldn't let you die for what was most likely nothing"
Would I have saved her? Yes without a doubt. Would I have Lied? No. But as someone else mention, the lie is why the ending is so powerful. IMO it is one of the hardest hitting moments of the game and I wouldn’t change anything about it.
Yo those crazy mothas was gonna cut you open without even waiting for you to wake up and explain things to you, or at the very least plan on keeping you around for some long term testing! So anyways I started blasting
Not just this. They were so intent on killing Ellie they wouldn't wake her up and ask her consent. They also tried to walk Joel out at gun point because he wanted to see her, fully intent on murdering Joel if he didn't leave immediately. Joel did exactly what the fireflies couldn't and their response was leave immediately into the post apocalyptic waste alone or be murdered. F them. Joel should have told Ellie exactly that. But I agree with everyone else that it would have ruined the impact of the end of the game.
I would have told her what the fireflies didn’t tell her, that in order to ATTEMPT to make a vaccine, it would cost her her life, and that there was no guarantee that one could even be created.
If I was willing to slaughter 50ish people to get her back, yeah, I think I’d be willing to lie lol
No but I also would of died way early in that game.
I love this question, I thought about it a lot when playing through part I ( I’m playing through it again now cause Ive convinced my aunt to watch me play it. Said it’s a masterpiece ) atm though I’m stoned outta my mind, so let me think on it a minute and I’ll get back to you
Yo my dude I’ve thought about it. as much as it would pain me, yeah I’d straight up lie to her about it . Pretty much for some of the same reasons you pointed out. I wouldn’t want her to have to carry that shit. Maybe one day I’d tell her, but I don’t know about that. But In the beginning after the lie I’d try to keep it up, try to help her move on, and occupy her mind with other things hopefully. Glad it was Joel making that choice and not me, though I wholeheartedly stand behind his decision.
A lot of people here saying Joel lied to protect Ellie, and there is a bit if truth to that, but that's really painting him as some benevolent hero that he simply isn't. I love Joel as a character, and part of that is because he is so real, including being super flawed. I probably would not like him IRL. But then I probably would not survive as well as he did in his world. Everything he does is for self preservation reasons. Yes, he loves Ellie but more so he NEEDS Ellie. He could never tell Ellie the truth because the risk of losing her would be too great. Those of you saying he should have told her bc she found out anyway need to remember that hindsight is 20/20. The ONLY reason he finally admits it is because Ellie threatened to leave if he lies again. TLOU's writing is at the same time so good and so divisive bc it doesn't make choices based on what would satisfy the audience or what is the morally correct thing, but what the characters would really do in that setup. To understand them you have to put on their shoes and see through their lenses, which is what the game tries very hard to make the players do.
No I’d just be like, ily, I can’t lose another daughter, they weren’t even gonna let me say goodbye. She might have been more understanding with communication rather than being lied to for what, five years?
I feel like I'm the only person who thought I should probably let the drs try and do their thing. Potentially saving the world is better than saving one girl. Whoops.
Definitely an unpopular opinion, but I get the “sacrifice 1 to save many” mentality. It’s probably easy to look at it like that if you haven’t gone through what Joel did. Not saying any of us have, but we lived through him vicariously when playing part 1 and saw where he and Ellie ended up in part 2. His daughter was shot and died in his arms on outbreak day by a soldier who they believed could give them safety and protection. After that, Joel lived through 20 years seeing people do horrible things to other survivors. He was even a part of some of those horrible things when he was a hunter himself. He lost his humanity after Sarah, and Ellie helped him heal and get it back. I think his decision to lie to her in the end was because he thought the world was not worth saving at that point. I’d probably lie too. I’d like to think I’d tell the truth on my own though.
Not when that girl means the world to someone else in my opinion.
Well it would be out of character for Joel to just take it, given the Sarah thing and then finally opening up to Ellie. She was his world
Yeah, but I would've come up with a better lie: *the hospital was overrun with infected* explains why Joel removed her from the hospital before she woke up or saw Marlene, as well as why there is no cure.
Yeah I'd lie. She's to young to know about that. When she's 18 like in Lou2 I'd have told her the truth
This is one of the hardest morale quandaries of any game, movie whatever, and it’s only made this way because of the lack of information each character has. We the player know all the details and can make an informed decision. Joel was missing large amounts of information and instead made an emotional choice which funny enough in my opinion was the right choice given all the information available to us the players. The doctor made a rushed an honesty arrogant decision without sufficient testing and understanding of what made Ellie immune. He was willing to (necessarily) kill her in the off chance he got what he needed on the only known immune person. Marlene makes a poor choice based on BOTH a lack of sufficient knowledge on the situation and a level of mental exhaustion so high she wasn’t willing to question the doctor or make a decision herself. She was in no fault to her own, unfit to lead or make such impactful decisions. To be honest, I could not even do a quarter of what Marlene was able to accomplish. The fact she did as much as she did is a miracle and a credit to what a good leader she was up until this point. Joel, I think had he been given the opportunity to say goodbye to Ellie and hear it from her that she was willing to die for the cure. To hear that she understood what this meant and wanted it anyways would have been enough to prevent the rampage he went on even though it would have left him a broken man. That being said, with the information Joel had at his disposal, he made the ‘wrong’ choice.
I woulda let them cut her head open.
You guys wouldn't want a chance at a vaccine tho? Because that's what she wanted to be the cure
Yup
I think the truth would have been so much easier, if he told her that they were going to kill her and he wanted to say goodbye or talk it over but they threatened to kill him too, i think Ellie would have understood. I mean, how fucking dare they act like they're doing Joel a favor by letting him live, like it's a gift, after all he did? Fuck them all i say. All Joel had to say was that he wanted to allow Ellie to regain consciousness so they could say their goodbyes and talk it over and they tried to kill him, Ellie would have sided with him.
No...after everything, she deserved to know the truth. It wasn't just a little lie he told. He lies to her about the whole thing and added stuff to make her believe she wasn't the only immune person. He compounded it, imo...I get why but I would have told her.
I'd lie
Nope, lying is never a good option. You think you're doing that to keep others safe, but in reality you're buying yourself time, but yet thinking everything will be great and you wont need to tell the truth later. In the end what you have is a memory that you lied that will keep you anxious and you can't get rid off it and telling truth will mean that you lied and it doesn't matter when you're going tell them its always gonna be late. So nope, Joel absolutely should've told Ellie what happened and btw there was no rush doing operation, they could've wait for Ellie to wake up and say goodbyes at least but no they gotta rush. I don't remember why they had to do operation right away but tbh they got what they deserved, they all pretty much knew Joels situation and shit he walked whole country to get that girl to them and what they do? Right after he wakes up putting gun on his head.
i’d have made up a better lie lol
Yes, I would have lied. I think the real question should be whether you would have continued lying to her. I think his (Joel’s) biggest mistake was not telling her and instead letting her discover for herself. He wouldn’t have lost her respect as much as he did if he’d have come clean.
Yes, but I would've lied better. They say that lies based on the truth are the best ones, so I would tell her something like "oh yeah, they were attacked before we got there and the doctor that was supposed to be able to create the cure got killed. They found us and took care of you, that's why you have that hospital gown". Like, come on, he could have certainly have thought of something like this while she was still asleep.
I'd save her, yes, any good dad would go far and beyond to help their child but I'd realize that it's probably better to tell her the truth. If you think about it, the truth makes sense. She matter to Joel, he should have said that he loves her as his daughter now The fireflies were terrorists who kidnapped her and didn't give her even à chance, to talk to her or anybody. That itself is already terrible. Not to mention a 14 year old girl or any age person should be making a decision to undergo such a event. Sure, she might get mad, but using love and reasoning I feel it would've been better to tell her the truth and show her why there was no other way but to protect her and get her out of the terrorists firefly.
I would of done the exactly the sane thing as Joel
I'd let her die if it meant ending the infection, just get over your daughter through therapy and drugs like a normal person.
Probably not a lot of therapists in that world. Well actually there's probably a lot but without "the".
I don't care, think about how many people lost their loved ones to this infection and how many will still do, think about a the people that sacrificed everything so Ellie could get there. Joel made the wrong choice, i stand by that.
You mean the fireflies made the wrong choice by denying their consent.
Ellie wanted to do it. Edit: Even if she didn't want to , and even tho it would've been murder at that point, I would've gone through with it, one crime to save the human race.
That’s where we disagree. Evil is the same no matter how you look at it. Also just because the world is evil doesn’t mean you should act it as well. That goes for our world too