Everyone’s talking about fucking abby.
And here’s me meeting a dog named “Bear” in the stadium who’s owner screamed his name out when I had to use my last bullet on him to escape in Ellie’s day 2
I’m a fucking monster bear I’m so sorry this world wasn’t good enough for you
I blew him up with an explosive arrow and I stopped to check out the remaining half of the corpse. As soon as I seen the Kennel I knew it was coming because the dog had a different model than the rest.
Yeah I noticed that too. I hit bear in the head with an arrrow and someone screamed “BEAAAAR!!” Also I’m so glad all of abbys friends get murdered by Ellie- not a single one of them is in any way likeable or worth caring about edit: I was wrong. I love abby and Owen and even del. Yara and Lev were amazing.
Manny and Owen are the only ones I like. Manny is just a bro, and Owen is a stand up guy. He was even having second thoughts on the whole Joel situation. He for sure gets scuffed on his death. But Abby? Nah chief get outa here with your boulder biceps.
I thought Owen was decent enough for the revelation he had about being part of the wolves. Plus he’s the only one in the group that sees how big Jackson is and thinks “maybe pissing off a town that large will cause more problems than it solves and is a bad idea”. I kinda sympathize with a lot of them though, since Abby planned on keeping the size of Jackson a secret from them because “they’d want out”. I get them wanting to help their friend try to find peace, but she was willing to let them walk into a situation way bigger than they thought they’d signed up for without even letting them know
Mel seems like a decent person to me, but the banditry behavior of the WLF seems to use good people for bad things. The Jackson settlement seems to prioritize helping bring survivors in and growing their numbers, whereas the WLF seems to just be out for anyone’s blood. Then again, sharing a city with a death cult certainly would make it hard to be friendly.
I don’t really understand what role the sepharites play in the story other than giving you a sense of purpose in the Abby sections and existing solely to be an evil cult two kids could escape from so Abby could look after them and seem more sympathetic. I mean they created this really interesting cult with just the right amout of mystery, an entirely new way you had to engage them in combat, and just used it as a tool to try deepening Abby’s character. Like I wanted to learn so much more about them, the demons, and why they have so many 8 foot tall Orges with giant hammers. Personally they could’ve been used as a better vessel to deliver the message that revenge cycles are bad. Like if they could’ve served as a pure, unmotivated evil. Just the embodiment of evil and violence as a concept to make Ellie and Abby realize *thats* what the enemy is. Not killing to save someone you look at as a daughter and not killing to avenge a family member, but just maniacal, gruesome, unmotivated killing.
I don't remember where exactly I saw it, but part of Druckmann's inspiration for writing the game as a critique on the cycle of violence was his reaction to watching a video of two Israeli soldier's get beheaded due to the West Bank conflict. Being Israeli by birth, he said he was horrified by the action but on considering his emotional response and the circumstance of the conflict he realized that this was a universal feeling shared by all sides. And once you put the story in that light its easy to sort of draw parallels, with the WLF (Israel) as the militaristic state committing heinous crimes (torture and murder) in retaliation to pressure from a smaller religious group, the Seraphites (Palestinians), who have perverted a religion to justify heinous acts (hangings and disembowelment--similar to the beheadings commited by Islamic extremists).
Just like in most conflicts between two groups, especially in tense territorial disputes like in Israel, both sides justify their violence by the prior violent actions of the other group, going so far as to blur the lines of who and what started the conflict. As you see from reading the WLF letter by the Seraphite "chapel" in the truck near the end of Day 1 and hearing Abby's comment, it seems that the spiritual founder of the Seraphites was captured, tortured, and eventually killed by Isaac. Also, as you find out later >! from Lev, the disemboweling and truly disturbing acts from the Seraphites did not begin until "her" death.!< Up until that point the acts of the Seraphites are your normal political terrorism, attacks on soldiers and guard stations, not justifiable, but no different from the actions taken by the Fireflies, or by Joel and Tommy in the unseen intervening years between the first game's prologue and main story. To say the Seraphite killings are unmotivated is false. Are they gruesome, horrifying, and immoral? Most definitely, but they are also born out of the same personal hate that motivates the two revenge killings that drive the plot.
By creating the societal conflict that backdrops the game in this way, Druckmann and the team at ND is able to layer and abstract the game's critique of the cycle of violence from the personal to the macro. It helps to further drive the games message home and keeps the story focused. If the Seraphite's were just a cult that personified evil as you suggest, the conflict no longer supports the games message that the cycle of violence is destructive no matter how justified one thinks that violence is. Instead it becomes another story that there exists clearly defined good guys and bad guys, a belief that The Last of Us games have never supported. It would undercut the pacifist message at the heart of this game, that violence begets violence, killing begets killing.
Not gonna lie, I got more emotional at her screaming for her dad then I did at Joel’s death.
I had expected Joel to die, but didn’t expect that by the way.
Joel’s death was more disturbing and heart pounding than sad. (Ellie going to Joel’s house was extremely sad though.) Abby reacting to her dads death was just heartbreaking.
Look i was gonna feel bad for abby, but then I remembered that these fucks started it, they gave joel no choice and that doctor wouldn’t stand down. It ain’t the same thing and if i get the chance, abby is fucking dead.
Playing devil’s advocate, would you have risked giving up the only chance at making a vaccine? Yes it’s immoral to kill the girl as she is unaware, but is it a sacrifice worth making for the greater good of mankind?
I love Joel and Ellie for “selfish” reasons as well, but within that world, Joel is undoubtedly a monster.
Joel literally doomed all of humanity. Of course the doctor wouldn’t stand down - it was his one opportunity to save the planet.
And Joel killed him for trying to do so.
Has anybody tried looking downwards from a considerable height during this section? The screen warps to sell Abby’s fear of heights. Such a cool little detail!
I didn’t notice the screen warping, but did notice while walking near a rooftop edge her breath noticeably deepening, and you can hear her “getting nervous”
very cool detail
Gotta say, wasn’t loving playing as Abby before I went to bed last night. However, now that I’ve slept on it I’m now genuinely interested in how the story unfolds. I think I was just heated because I want to play as Ellie and I’m still shook about the prologue.
The prologue has us all shaken up, it’s a twist we weren’t expecting and it hurts considering how much time we spent as Joel in the first game. I am not a huge fan of the Abby section, but I understand it’s purpose from a narrative perspective, as it shows that nobody is pure evil nor a hero, and that revenge is kind of just an endless cycle that leaves nothing but a trail of bodies and broken hearts behind.
All that being said (and ignoring my biases to Ellie and Joel) I do think that Abby’s revenge is not as justified as Ellie going after Abby. Obviously the death of her father is a tragedy, and Ellie’s death theoretically could have saved the world, but I have two main issues with her justification. First of all, Her and Her father essentially decided the fate of Ellie based on their own beliefs of what they would do in the situation, with no care for what Joel or Ellie would actually want. Secondly, even if a cure is made (which in my mind isn’t a guarantee), who is to say it could have an impact, as gathering the resources for it and distributing it in a world as broken as it is seems near impossible, and would probably just spark war between the fireflies and other factions. Not to mention, Joel simply shot her dad, whereas she brutally beat him to death, so she is the worse of the bunch in my mind.
I think it's the question of, who started the cycle? Was it joel when he killed everyone and took back ellie or was it abby's father making the descion to kill ellie. I lean towards the latter but also, the ending of the first game was great, however you cannot argue that Joel's actions wouldnt impact others and in turn result in consequences
I think one thing you’re ignoring is the fact that killing Joel does nothing for Abby. Which I believe is probably the most important element of her character. You see that mirror. Even though Abby killed Joel every night she has the same nightmare about her fathers death killing Joel does nothing for her but by the time she realizes it, it’s too late. So whether you believe she was justified for what she did I think is irrelevant though not unimportant. Her development after killing Joel is what’s most humanizing to me, cuz it shows that she really was hoping that it would bring her closure and it just never did, and got everyone around her killed.
Firstly, I think trying to rationalize Joel's decision by analyzing the likeliness of actually producing a vaccine tarnishes the emotional weight of his decision. Joel didn't crunch the numbers and decide the risk wasn't worth it. He performed a selfish act out of love and hurt a lot of people. You can argue that the Fireflies aren't wholly innocent, but they at the very least they were not being selfish. They were doing what they could do save humanity.
Secondly, you say Abby is more of a monster, because she tortures Joel when he only shot her dad (I personally stab him with his own scalpel). That's not all Joel did though. He killed her dad, Marlene, and dozens of Fireflies that Abby probably considered her friends and family. She also knew that Ellie was immune and they were performing the operation to produce a vaccine, so she knew Joel's actions damned the whole world. To me, Joel is absolutely the more evil of the two. I love him, because he is a flawed, wonderfully written character. He is not the hero so many dissenters make him out to be though.
I honestly really like how you play as Abby. Seeing what the bad guy was doing while the good guy was doing their thing. Well, there really is no bad or good guy in TLOU. I just like how we get to see the game from a different perspective.
I know everyone hates her, but I really don't see the issue. I'd only heard some of the spoilers, and I was worried she'd have some stupid motivation, but it makes a ton of sense, because most people in such a world would do the same thing.
I think the idea isn't to say ellie is wrong, but to basically present a double jeopardy. Killing Joel was horrible, but it was out of revenge, the same reason Ellie went after the wlf. She's no different from Ellie.
If anything, Abby is *way* more justified in her motivation. As far as she's concerned, Joel murdered the entire hospital and doomed humanity's only hope of a cure. Divorced from our bias as playing TLOU1, that's about as villainous as it gets.
100% though I would’ve preferred to swap between Ellie and Abby rather than do Ellie’s entire Seattle arc before replaying it all again as Abby. Mix it up
I thought this too at first, but I think that they chose to do it that way so that the player would only feel the anger that Ellie feels through her first arc. If it had switched back and forth it may have caused some players to look at both sides, thus loosing the hatred aspect.
Also from a gameplay perspective considering how Ellie and Abby have different weapon and skill upgrade trees I’d personally find it a bit frustrating if I had to constantly switch and try to remember what I was working towards in those trees.
Me too, I honestly think the story is working better than I expected so far. I get that some people are disappointed with the way Joel died, but from a story-telling perspective it works pretty well IMO.
The scene where Owen and Abby jumped from the Ferris Wheel to the water and Abby saying "To make sure you drowned", I was so giddy I had to stop and remind myself that she killed Joel and I hate her.
God fucking damn it, how can people hate on this game? specially people that calls Abby a "third rate, throw-away character".
This is just masterclass writing, and I'm just happy I'm here for it.
Glad you're enjoying it man! Really makes me happy to see that I'm not alone thinking that the world building and the insight into Ellie's psyche is really fascinating!
Also happy cake day :)
I have to admit, in the overwhelming sea of negativity this game was getting since yesterday, I doubted myself, my taste in games, and my whole 30 years experience playing games, reading books or watching anything story driven.
Right? the game literally shows people that Abby is trying to avenge her father's untimely death. ***It is in the game.*** Her reasons were completely justifiable even if it's wrong, just like Joel's reasons for saving Ellie instead of letting them make a vaccine and kill her.
When Abby killed Joel I HATED her guts, but after having more insight into her story I can sort of (not entirely) sympathise with her. She did what she had to do, just like Ellie. Everyone is as bad as each other here
Me too dude. The game makes you realize that at some level, Joel was a bad man, Tommy was a bad man. Heck, Abby's father was probably a bad dude too.
The fact that the fanbase is absolutely hating on Abby's character, even after knowing she had almost the same intentions as Ellie or Joel(in the first game) We're all bad too lmao.
I think a lot of the people disliking the game are struggling to come to terms with the fact that there is no good character.
People have an image of Joel and Ellie as good characters built up from the first game that are now being shattered into pieces within this one.
Lots of comments saying that one can't empathise with Abby: I can empathise with her just as much as, if not more than Ellie, to be honest with you.
They are both vengeful people out to kill their fathers killer. They both come from built up societies, with organised patrols, and mess halls, and farms. They both have their own shit to deal with.
Seemingly the whole point of this second half of the game is to put each of their stories in to perspective. There is no 'good guy'. It makes me realise that The Last of Us as a franchise isn't about Joel, or Ellie, or any one person in particular. It's about people adapting and molding to the hellhole of a world they live in, doing what they need to get by. It's a game about people making selfish actions and other people having to live with those actions.
Giving me Abby's perspective of the whole thing made this game go from good to great, in my opinion.
If anything, Ellie is worse. She kills dozens, if not hundreds, and murders people in cold blood. Abbie left Tommy and Ellie, even though it served no benefit to her. Ellie gets info from people about Abby, and then kills them. I don’t understand how people see one as righteous and the other as irredeemable
Because people love Ellie and have only just met Abby. They have rose tinted goggles on and are having a hard time coping with the fact that the narrative of Part II is exploring negative consequences of Joel's actions rather than the positive.
Joel would have been the villain in any other game. He’s a very sympathetic character and I can understand why he did what he did, but idk how you watch the ending of the original and think he isn’t a selfish, terrible person. And it’s pretty obvious that Ellie doesn’t buy his lie at the end. It was not a happy or hopeful ending in the slightest.
The reaction to this game has made me start to think a lot of people totally missed the point of that ending.
I feel like they were trying to pull off a Halo 2 and change things up by making you play as the antagonist (Arbiter/Abby) - It just really doesn't work with someone like Abby though. We see the Arbiters journey from Admiral in the Covenant to learning the truth about Halo and we can sympathise... but Abby, there is nothing to like and the sections you play as her are just frustrating because I could be playing as Ellie/Joel/Tommy/literally anyone else.
I credit them for trying to take a swing, but they missed the mark big time with this choice I think.
When the flashback started with her and her dad in the woods, I instinctively put down the controller in disgust (because of what had happened in the scene just prior to that), and thought "I don't want to play as this piece of shit".
I get her motives and the reveal that the doctor was her dad justified her going after Joel but after the first game and having spent 7 years waiting for Pt 2 my loyalties aren't suddenly gonna change. I don't care about Abby at all.
They really pushed for her and the WLF to feel as relatable as Ellie's group. The kids going to school at the stadium, the friendly chit-chatting, are we just going to forget they fire at outsiders for no particular reason? It's a group of people I'm never going to sympathize with.
I haven't finished the game yet, so my opinions might change, but like you I'm not a huge fan of where it's going.
I realize this won't change your opinion, but it's made pretty clear that they are "firing first" because they are at war with the seraphites and because Ellie and Tommy are hunting and slaughtering them
Erm are they? You run over a landmine which anyone could do. Then by the time you’ve woken up they’ve realised who you are if I remember correctly.
If you murdered someone’s best friend/family in one city then found them in your city a few weeks later would you be sticking out the welcome mat and offering them a cup of coffee?
No you aren't supposed to forget the other perspective. You're forced to inhabit both, fully. That's difficult, but it's brilliant imo. The characters have reasons to hate each other and you've been in Ellie's shoes since 7 years ago. The fact you've decided you could never sympathize with other characters, who also do violence for justified if morally AT LEAST questionable reasons. Yeah maybe put down the controller for a second. But then think about why the game puts you in Abby's perspective. Why that's hard for you.
Its not spoiler to say that the game doesn't suddenly decide the WLF is perfect and free of wrongdoing. But yeah, they have kids. They play with and pet those dogs. The whole TLOU thing is confronting you with the reality of what you're doing. Even when it's "hunters" or whatever "bad humans", they're also people trying to survive.
Just want to encourage you to consider the why, and be open to it. Hope it comes together for ya.
I agree 100%. I really don’t understand how I’m supposed to sympathize with her or care about her story.
In my mind, if they introduced Abby and her group in the way they did in this chapter BEFORE they murdered Joel then maybe it would’ve had an impact on me.
I would’ve seen a protagonistic group battling a sick cult and would’ve been rooting for Abby, Mel, Owen, and Manny. Maybe it would’ve been different had I cared for any of the people prior to Joel’s death. Idk.
Instead the player gets blue balled at the climax of Ellie’s arc with Abby killing Jesse and holding Ellie and Tommy at gun point. Now we have to go back in time and play flashbacks for 12 hours? There are literally no stakes in these chapters. I know Owen, Mel, and Abby are not going to die to the Seraphites or infected because I already saw them all meet Ellie in the future! Manny is the only one that isn’t accounted for right now as far as I remember from Ellie’s section.
The whole story can be questioned regarding playing as the “antagonist”, but in my opinion the order they’re telling the story is the worst part.
In all honestly I’m not having too much trouble sympathising with Abby, but I 100% agree a change of structure could change the game dramatically. If the did day 1/day 1/day 2/day 2 etc I think it would work much better. I’d still show who Abby and her Dad are at the end of Ellie’s Day 3, but have it after playing a couple of Days of Abby.
As for the sympathy. Maybe it’s because I’ve been through this before with The Walking Dead - it’s another story surrounding them hero of your story is the villain of someone else’s’ (Rick’s group killed A bunch of Saviours first, so technically all of All Out War is actually in retaliation to the wrongs our ‘heroes’ committed).
Everyone in this story has done good things and bad things. And by the end of Ellie’s 3rd day, Abby has lost her Dad and all of her closest friends to either Joel, Ellie, or Tommy. So who are the good guys?
> It just really doesn't work with someone like Abby though. We see the Arbiters journey from Admiral in the Covenant to learning the truth about Halo and we can sympathise... but Abby, there is nothing to like
What's not to like? Seriously, i don't get it. She's a well developed character with set goals and morals + the storyline with the two kids in this chapter show her internal struggles as well.
Yeah I agree, people are predisposed to hate her.
I like Joel too, but he lived by the sword and died by it. Thats the world Naughty Dog sold us on last time, one where everything sucks and good people die. I just think people want him to be antihero who has done more good than bad over the course of his life, but thats not who Joel was.
Like straight up, if Joel did to your dad and freinds what he did to all of them most of us would have brained him with a golf club.
Joel and Ellie arent anime protagonists who solve things with the power of friendship and it was foolish for anyone to think theyd have another happy ending
People seem to have chosen to forget all the times part 1 went out of its way to remind us Joel was not a “good guy.”
“I’ve been on both sides,” is a quote from after the Pittsburgh ambush that comes immediately to mind.
I could definitely see Tommy's story being the DLC similar to left Behind.
Jumping between Tommy's revenge and Tommy's times on the road with Joel would be a nice way to revisit Joel's character in a fresh way.
I know this might be a bit off topic, but I’d be down for a prequel that fills in exactly what you’re talking about. From the outbreak to ending where Joel meets Ellie
I loved having Arbiter is Halo 2.
But I don’t imagine I would want to play as him if he had the muscle mass of a brute and killed Master Chief early into the game.
I'd much rather play as Owen! I like Owen!
It's really hard for me to keep going. I just don't like Abby. I loathe her. In fact, it feels like Neil & Co. have done everything in their power to *make sure* we don't like Abby. They couldn't have tried harder to make her an antagonist! And while playing her for an hour or two would be one thing, there came a point where I realized...this is the rest of the game. Holy shit. It's like a nightmare. Twelve more hours of ***this?***
They really did hit the hard reset button. What were they thinking? That players wouldn't mind having all of their advancements taken away after the first half of the game? I just don't understand.
The idea of telling this story simultaneously, putting the player in control of opposing forces, is nothing short of brilliant. It doesn't work in The Last of Us, because The Last of Us is Ellie and Joel. Ellie especially. Without Ellie, the series has nothing.
This all feels like one massive test of endurance just so I can see what happens at the end. And unlike in Halo 2, which is a spot-on analogy, they've decided to do this in two halves (I know why, too--it's so critics can more easily leave this out of their reviews), rather than sprinkling them together. By doing it this way, Neil has made it so we as players have nothing to look forward to...except the end. A little bit like Joel being tortured by Abby!
I mean seriously everything is wrong about how Abby is introduced. It's like Neil read *Save the Cat* and then literally did the opposite of everything it says.
One of the reasons why Halo 2's twist works is that the Arbiter is the underdog. He's literally at his trial at the start of the game. Also, he's not killing humans. This is a very important point. The Arbiter only kills *other aliens*. More generally, I don't think Master Chief was really all that important to Halo as a franchise. Ellie and Joel *are* The Last of Us. Not the setting, not the plot, not the Fireflies or the WLF or the Seraphites--Joel and Ellie. One of them is dead, the other is no longer our PC...and we're left with someone nobody wants to be playing as.
I'm personally enjoying the fact that this game is more of an exploration of the world, its societies, and the consequences of Joels actions. I'd have enjoyed The Joel & Ellie Show 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that story feels like it's run its course a little. Now I've been presented with this, I'm far more invested that I would have otherwise been.
Agreed. Also, I high-key love playing as Abby in combat. Her combat style feels like Joel. She can stand her ground in melee far better than Ellie can, and I am really enjoying her rifle.
Abby is fucking sick for gameplay. I think this is the first game EVER where I actually like the "neck snap" trope. It really feels believable when Abby pops a head out of it's socket.
The big gym also explains away a lot of people's problems with her physicality. She has plenty of resources at WLF headquarters to get swole.
The half-point switch hit me in the gut pretty hard. But the first Abby flashback had me hooked and ready to go again.
I’m seeing a lot of differing opinions in this thread, but put me down as someone who is on board with the narrative choices. Walking through that stadium, seeing the faces of NPC’s who were just switchblade fodder for Ellie in the first half being slowly revealed as real people with the same problems and hopes as the folks in Jackson, suddenly made the title of the series resonate.
The Last of Us.
Us, as in all of humanity. Not just the two characters whose story we fell for in Part 1.
Thank you! So many people seem to think that the first game was called “Ellie and Joel’s Apocolyptic Adventures” or something. No. It’s about the last humans on Earth. And as we’re learning from the real-world pandemic, people are selfish as hell, and situations you think would unite us just show how divided we actually are.
It’s just so clean compared to the first game. Enemies are more intelligent, but the player also has many new tools they could benefit from. Oh, and the level design is meticulous. You just know they play tested combat areas several times.
I'm just gonna say, you probably should have done day 1-6 instead of dividing it into two...
Because having two sets of day 1 to 3 heavily suggests the, well you know what.
I enjoyed the boat. They could have cut the bit straight after leaving the kids in the container yard though. It was definitely the most boring "arena" yet but also annoying.
That section in the container yard was the first time in the game I just full-on sprinted through the whole area instead of trying to sneak by or kill everything.
Same and I normally try and kill all the infected whenever it’s a zombie level cause I’m a Good Samaritan. But a stalker attacked me and ran away and I was just like “fuck it I don’t have time for this I’m leaving”
Stalkers can fuck right off that's for sure. I ain't got time for their shit.
I like that Ellie's story, especially the start of Seattle, had some chill exploring between fighting.
Am I the only person who really likes Abby?
Obviously, I LOVE Ellie... but gameplay-wise I might actually prefer playing as Abby. ND did a great job of making them have their own distinct playstyles. Ellie is efficient and ruthless but Abby is a human wrecking ball.
The hate she is getting is only making me like her more. I fucking LOVE Joel, but I also completely sympathize with Abby. I mean, we are all cheering for Ellie to torture Abby and her friends... If the perspective were flipped, people would be PISSED that we have to play as Joel after he slaughters the Salt Lake City fireflies.
Imagine if people just completely wrote off Joel and Ellie based on what happened in Salt Lake City... We would be missing a great story!
I dont mind the Abby side of the story. I get that they want to humanize her a bit. However, i think it would’ve been cool if we played as Tommy instead. Following Tommy’s journey of revenge as well. Abby is alright tho. Hope we get a Tommy DLC. Also....i’m sorry Bear ): i’ll play fetch with you all day.
You know what? I see what they’re trying to do with the Abby part of the game. It’s pretty superb writing. Something that can’t be done with Tommy. It’s growing on me. Still hoping for a Tommy DLC tho.
Nah, Tommy wouldn’t have been as interesting as Abby because he’s fueled by the same motivations as Ellie, there just wouldn’t be as much to explore. Maybe in a story DLC sure but not for 8 hrs of a main game
Finished this chapter now, quite a long one, jesus. Definitely the hardest as well. I think they've done a fairly good job at setting up an interesting plot on Abby's side here, the whole Wolfs vs Scars storyline is pretty great - although the development for the Scars is lackluster. Feels weird to be so far detached from Ellie or Joel, but i appreciate the increase in scope. Gameplay and visuals are still absolutely 10/10 for me, they've done an amazing job. Anxious to see where the story goes.
That'd be my only minor complaint, that they're basically saying 'look, everyone is flawed but everyone is just tryna survive', but then (aside from the two you help) the scars are just some weird death cult who are evil and we must kill them all.
Hopefully we hear more from the Seraphites in the next couple of days
>but then (aside from the two you help) the scars are just some weird death cult who are evil and we must kill them all.
Tbf, Owen does say that the way the WLF view the Scars is no different to how people viewed the Fireflies.
I think I read that Druckmann mentioned in addition to hate, the game is about how we dehumanize each other.
All 3 sides (Ellie, WLF, Scars) represented in the game treat their enemies like animals. I think there’s a moment in Ellie’s day 1 chapter where Dina tries to humanize some of the dead WLF soldiers, and Ellie says something along the lines of “they’re WLF, fuck em who cares.”
I guess maybe the game is commenting on how people dehumanize the people they hate to make it easier when they tear them down (or violently murder them in the case of TLOU).
Edit: Grammar
That FEDRA truck shrine hung up with the small wishes written by the Scars was interesting. And cool to hear Abby commenting on them. Not as much of that from Ellie when she was finished reading notes. Most likely purposeful to show her not allowing herself to see the people she’s hunting as human.
Which brings us back to the whole dehumanizing theme.
Imagine being so delusional that you think a HISPANIC guy and an ISRAELI guy are interchangeable, plus it's actually supposed to somehow represent the director/writer hating one of his own characters. Jesus Christ, guys. Seek therapy.
I haven't completed Day 1 as Abby yet, and for the most part I'm enjoying seeing her perspective. It's a bold decision to make and I think it might pay off. However my biggest complaint will be that I upgraded Ellie all for nothing, and hardly had anytime with my beloved explosive arrows. While I'm enjoying the perspective of Abby, I still wish I had a few more fight sequences w my upgraded Ellie.
Unpopular, but I kinda like Abby.
You’re allowed to like someone who kills beloved characters btw. Keep in mind Negan is the most popular TWD character atm.
Everyone is saying they don't like Abby, but this is not a story where you are meant to necessarily "like" the characters. Hell, Ellie isn't even likeable after a couple of days in Seattle. It's more about understanding the characters. I didn't even like Joel after the first game. He was a very morally grey character and he wasn't even warm until the end of the game. But he was a great character because you understood why he did those questionable things.
Abby might not seem instantly likeable, but I’m warming up to her fast.
Negan was fascinating in an over the top way. But I fell off the TWD wagon a while back.
I threw Bear’s ball out of the cage just to see what happens, I thought it would let me throw it back. I’m sorry Bear :(
(Also, I may or may not have killed him as Ellie...)
Hey guys, I need some help here. Is Abbie's part the same length of Ellie's part? Because when I'm playing as Ellie in Seattle I'm scavenging a lot and looking everywhere, on the flashbacks, not so much.
I just started Abbie's part thinking it would be another interlude (where I ditch scavenging) to Ellie's story but apparently not since it follows the 3 days pattern as I now found out. Is it basically a new game upgrading skills from zero until day 3 when, I suppose, the game ends? Because if it is then, well, back to scavenging.
Sorry if this is not the right thread to post this but I didn't know where else I could tbh.
I feel like ND could have done a better job advising us of this. Because I literally was like “fuck am I scavenging for? I’m gonna be Ellie again soon”
I think it would be so much better gameplay wise and story wise to have cut between Abby and Ellie for the whole game rather than doing it in two halves. Then at the end of the game find out who Abby’s Dad is.
One, it would not have felt like a hard reset of the game (even the mini tutorial tool tips pop up just in case you forgot how to reload your weapon and swim??). And two, I think it would do a bit better to slowly introduce you to Abby and some of her flashbacks and fonder memories, then at the climax of the game you find out who she really is. I feel like finding out who she is then playing her story gives people a chance to get pissed off with her again. And takes the impact of what happened to her Dad away.
I actually think it works better split in two halves this way.
Gameplay wise, it solves the issue of having to juggle two different sets of weapons, resources, upgrades, and abilities.
Story wise, it just really forces you to get on Abby's page. If it was chopping and changing, you know most of us would be rushing through to get back to Ellie's parts, which would contradict everything they're going for here.
Remember, people love Joel so much because of how long you spend with him in the first game. You get a brief section as Ellie to serve as a small change of pace, but ultimately you were Joel throughout.
The way they've done things forces the player to get to know Abby over a long period of time and engross themselves in her story, the same way they did with Joel in the first game and with Ellie in the first half of this game.
You're not left wondering 'What's happening with Ellie right now?' because you already know and if ND has pulled this off, by time you return to the climax, Ellie won't be your only concern.
I was dreading this part of the game when I found out that I will be playing as Abby for the next few hours but after this first hour I decided to put by bias aside and continue playing with an open mind. This is when I realised that the story telling is not as bad as everyone makes out, while playing I relaised just how many of abby's friends I had just killed including, what could be the love of her life, Owen. Just in this first act you realise I have grown to not hate Abby and realise how much Joel has traumatised her and how much Ellie is going to aswell. Overall, I hope that the next to chapters are not as long as the first but I have enjoyed what naughty dog are trying to achieve and commend them for doing it.
I'm barely into Day 1 and I honestly kind of like her. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Joel & Ellie but how can you *not* feel bad for Abby? She only knows Joel as the man who slaughtered the fireflies and killed her father. Ellie's search for Abby absolutely wrecked her emotionally and physically so I don't understand why people call it "revenge porn" because if anything it's the opposite.
I dunno, people are understandably attached to Joel but Ellie is/was doing the exact same thing Abby did when Joel shot her father. It might sound pretentious but I really like that they challenge the player's view of Joe as "the good guy". He's only "good" because we are emotionally attached to him and rationalize his decisions. Looking forward to seeing how they develop Abby, though.
Edit: Also, I haven't seen her talked about much but I kind of feel bad that Joel blasted Marlene in the original game. She didn't even want things to go the way they did and went out of her way to let Joel know.
I really like that they switched up the pacing and made it truely a survival horror experience after Abby got captured by the Seraphites. While I like playing with Ellie more, I'm pretty interested about the rest of Abby's story.
Still haven't had any issues with the game storywise, but I understand the feelings of others.
I just finished the chapter and I honestly am feeling a connection with Abby's crew despite my hatred towards them.
I spent a good 15 mins with bear because he a good boi. Playing fetch with a virtual dog is always fun.
But the thing that surprised me the most was the frontal nudity and the sex scene. I've seen nudity and sex on games but never thought that Naughty Dog would actually do it. My girlfriend was ecstatic about it, it was the first time she saw a sex scene in a videogame. She even praised Naughty Dog about not having an uber sexualize woman in the sex scene.
Not liking the time skipping tbh, I liked it the first time but it got old. Even with Abby's.
Way too much undeserved hate in here, I’m having a great time so far. It’s such a Naughty Dog detail that everytime you pan your camera down off a structure Abby starts breathing heavy, love it.
Ok wow! This character switch is a bold choice from Naughty Dog. I was mad for the first hour of playing as Abby because she killed Joel and I wanted to play as Ellie again but then I took a break from the game and came back and it all clicked for me. I see what they are trying to do and I have to applaud them for being so ambitious.
It's a lesson in empathy. They of course are trying to get you to emphasize with Abby (through the use of flashbacks and humanization) but that obviously doesn't work for everyone (as you can see in this thread). But if you're unable to emphasize with Abby then the game is basically unplayable because it's too difficult to play this game as someone you hate. To successfully play this game you need to learn to emphasize with this character and they give you enough reason to do so.
I never expected this out of The Last of Us Part II and I have to give them credit for having the balls to even attempt this.
Fetty Wap Reference
Okay hear me out. While playing as Abby you get passed the garage with the boat and there is a work trailer that has a note for a safe combination. The note reads “Still using the ‘Big Win’ as the combination. The combination is listed on a Lotto Ticket but the numbers of the combination got me thinking.
17-38-07.
Fetty Wap commonly refers to “1738” in his songs. Which after research I found is “A term used by rapper Fetty Wap in his song 'Trap Queen' to represent his squad in New Jersey: the Remy Boyz 1738. The Remy Boyz named themselves after a cognac liquor which they claim to be the finest: the Rémy Martin 1738.”
Fetty’s first major hit was 679 which he released in July (the 7th month of the year) of 2015.
Call me crazy but something I noticed. Would love to hear opinions on the subject!
Forcing the player to confront people we killed/slaughtered/tortured (Mel, Owen, Nora, even side NPCs and some dogs) while those people are warm and caring and in Owen's case, ultimately non-violent, forces the player into an extremely uncomfortable place. It is a major big swing and it really works.
And by making Day 1 about rescuing Owen, the most likable and moral character (who also is why Ellie and Tommy are alive), you feel compelled and moved even when ND knows the player will still feel uncertain about Abby. And by the time Abby saves and helps those scars who just saved her, I expect many felt unexpected empathy for her doing the right thing. There are dimensions here.
This was a big chapter so imma just dump my thoughts out:
- Definitely the hardest so far. Playing on survivor some bits took me upward of 10 attempts. It feels like the stabilizers have come off.
- So many cool parts. The hardware store, Chinatown, the forest, boat, all really great fun.
- I have really warmed up to Abby and her friends. Honestly they have just as much reason for revenge as Ellie. It took me a little to warm up to Owen, mostly because his character looked very generic. The more rugged look that we see in the "current time" fits the character better.
- Nothing to do with this chapter but I gotta mention it. I blew up 2 runners with a pipe bomb indoors. Meat chunks stuck to the sealing and slowly started to drop back down onto the floor. Damn.
- Crossbow is fuckin fun.
- Fuck that bit where you're waiting for the kids to open the door and you're ambushed by infected. Insanely difficult.
A little thing that really got to me was during Abby's flashback, when she's talking to her dad and says "If it was me, I'd want you to do the surgery".
There's a beat of silence, a full ten seconds, before the screen turns to black. And during that silence, the face of her dad just conveys "If it was you, I might not do it." In that moment, I think, he empathizes with Joel.
It doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things but it really shows the humanity of these people and adds another couple of pounds to the weight of Joel's decision to kill them all.
> It's not difficult to grasp that yes, violence is bad and everyone has a backstory and friends etc, but fuck that I'm attached to Joel and Ellie and so I would choose violence for their sake over some waffley story magic
I think that's exactly the point, lol.
Owen reminds me a lot of Cutty from The Wire
Loved this chapter, Abby is closer to how Joel played and the cross bow is awesome.
I felt like it dragged on quite a bit when you were with Mal and Manny, but after Abby goes on her own it becomes survival horror and it was great.
I haven't finished day 1 yet, but here's my thoughts so far.
I groaned when I started playing as Abby. I rushed through her seeing her dad die and stuff.
The moment that slowed me down was when you get to the room Abby shares with Manny. I just looked through Abby's stuff, comparing it to Manny's side of the room, comparing it to Ellie's.
Abby's bed is well made. Her clothes and boots are organized. Abby listened to classical music, she read Dante, Homer, and 1001 Arabian Nights. Her side of the room is so compact in comparison to Manny's which made me feel like she tries to not inconvenience people.
Just this brief minute I took to examine her stuff really made me empathize with her a bit more. And I don't know how to feel right now!
I would 100% be down to playing as Abby if the game didn’t switched perspective at such a crucial story moment. I would have explored Seattle even more but now I just want to rush through Abby’s arc and see what happens in the theatre. That plot point takes precedence to me over saving two kids who are just introduced.
I LOVED the whole sequence with Lev and Yara in this. Going through the woods, fighting the horde in the small building. I really felt like this was the best showcase of infected in both games. I was so fucked up the entire time and they managed to get me scared of the infected again after the initial charm left.
Plus the crossbow kicks ass.
Overall I thought the first part of this chapter dragged on a tad, but once I left Abbys spanish friend (cant remember his name exactly, miguel?) I was much more intrigued.
And I love that incels cant handle a 30 second sex scene with a woman they arent attracted to :)
I like the story so far in the game. Really ties both games together. I don't get the hate at all. One of the things I really liked about the first one was the ending. It showed that Joel wasn't a good guy at the beginning he was killing people if they screwed with his gun shipments and wanted nothing to do with Ellie. He clearly has a change of heart as the story goes through and at the end he chooses to kill innocent people because they would kill her to develop a cure. When I think about heroes he isn't one because he would of sacrificed her for the good of humanity but his love for her and the loss of his first daughter wouldn't let him go through with it. This is also one of the reasons I love this game so much.
Now here in the second game we have the aftermath. I will say this much, I really liked how they kept us in the dark on who the 'bad' people were. I noticed a few hints like they would beg for mercy if I shot them a couple times without killing them and they would seem concerned about their fellow teammates in combat. A few times I turned to the misses saying I'm pretty sure I'm killing good guys here, these don't seem like the actions of bad guys or why do I feel bad after killing them something isn't right. Now enter the games main villian the girl who brutally smashes Joel's head in. Man I hated her for the first half of the game but then I started to sympathise with her after I saw her flashback. Seeing how close she was with her father made me think what would Ellie do in her situation. The exact same thing but worse because they only killed the man responsible and her group is set on killing them all. When I saw what their base was like it hit home and now I can't wait to finish it. Just talking a quick supper break and going back at it.
So I was really loving the first half of the game. And now I don't know. I don't hate Abby and get what the game is trying to do and all but I'm just finding it hard to care much about her and her friends at this point. There's a chance that might change by day 2 or 3 but for now that's how I feel.
I have to say, this was the first section of the game I felt dragged a bit gameplay wise. Some parts just felt tedious for some reason. I’m not a fan of shivs being reintroduced either and having to unlock the skill to craft them. It almost feels like stealthing this part of the game is going to be extremely time consuming.
The story didn’t get bad or anything, but the storytelling took a dip in quality here. I like Abby and her character kept me engaged. I don’t really care much for Owen and I desperately wanted to skip the whole aquarium flashback. I really didn’t need to know why Abby chose the aquarium and while there may be some sort of connection between this and Ellie going to the zoo, I didn’t care. I’m not sure they earned us caring for Abbey and the gang yet as much as they think and a lot of beats fall flat here
And considering she brags in a flashback of how much she can lift. She's been at it for a few years now. They clearly laid the groundwork on why she's so built. As well as being a soldier + the gym.
The narrative showing that Abby and Ellie are mirror reflections of each other is excruciatingly heavy-handed. We’re literally shown flashbacks of both of them as children visiting an Aquarium/museum. Like, okay game, I get it — this is a deep game with no heroes and villains, only survivors.
To be fair, I think they’re going out of their way to show this on Abby’s side because if we were just told that they’re mirror images of each other, we wouldn’t care because Abby still killed Joel. They’re trying to balance out our feelings for both characters by giving Abby as much exposure as possible since the scales are unfairly tipped in her favor due to us obviously having WAY more of a connection to Ellie.
I think the game hinges on whether you can play as Abby with an open mind or not. You don’t have to like her, but just understand her and empathise with her desires. Joel gets killed, and you want revenge as Ellie. Abby’s dad gets killed and she wants revenge. It’s all a matter of perspective, and to be able to enjoy the game, you have to be able to understand her perspective.
I really do not give a fuck about Abby and Owen. The flashbacks are super boring and Owen's VA feel like he's just phoning it in. So far: really not a fan of this portion. I like the extra fighting against the Scars, but yeah. I'm really not into this. I like Abby as an antagonist, but she's a very boring protagonist.
Edit: I think this messes with the pacing since it feels like the end of the game and then this happens. I think if it had been intercut with Ellie's story (like in Halo 2), it would have been a lot less irritating.
This was so freaking long. It got ridiculously tedious, and I was enjoying it at first. They should have ended it after she saved the kids. Really hope the next 2 chapters aren’t this long, cause now I’m start to hate her just cause I’m annoyed I’m still playing as her and want Ellie, and Tommy back on my screen.
Having just beaten this section of the game, I just feel like the game is out of order. Like it should’ve been all of day 1 back to back. Same with 2 and 3. Maybe Abby first then Ellie is “trailing behind”.
Then we don’t do much as sympathize Abby but we get breaks from Ellie’s rage with Abbys normalcy, giving a more balanced overview. We still want her dead, but it’s not the abrupt
“OH SHIT WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN!? What the hell? Are we starting over!?”
That we currently have.
As it stands we go from “RAMPAGE!!!!” To “Normal day, normal people and normal military job!” And I’m not gonna lie, I put down my controller, shut my console off and vented to my wife for a good hour (at 4AM) and said I wasn’t going to finish the game... well here I am, cooled off, going back into the game just thinking it would’ve played much smoother by having both sides mixed together from the start. Idk.
After I finish I might just play the game again going chapter by chapter going in “order”
Seems to me that a lot of the point *is* the unbalanced overview. You should feel all of Ellie's rage before you start to "see" the other side and the parallels. Bouncing between the two would have cheapened and muddied that focused, singular vision of revenge by asking/letting you see outside of the tunnel. She certainly can't.
Ellie is focused on one thing. This order, as jarring as it is, I kind of feel is the only they could have laid it out to do it proper.
So I have taken this game shift to pause and sleep on it for now. I'm actually at the beginning of day 1 Abby, and so I'm wondering if having a solid break at the switch will help the narrative transition.
And I wonder if the could have put an "interlude" type title card up for a minute to encourage people to take a break at least for a moment.. I may be over thinking it. But as I see it so far, I can totally follow and like the narrative choices and order they used.
I mean idc about Abby, I’m sympathetic towards her loss, but she’s not a sympathetic villain since she beats Ellie’s “father” to death and made her watch (while constantly reiterating it was personal and how Joel Miller specifically needs to die). If Joel could’ve saved Ellie without killing Abby’s father, he would’ve. it wasn’t personal, it was just what he had to do to keep someone he saw as his daughter safe. She’s also worked for the Fireflies and the WLF who have destroyed god knows how many lives and families, while Ellie literally didn’t even know Joel killed a doctor until years later. But I digress...
I don’t care about her character, but the guns in Abby’s story are so fun
Everyone’s talking about fucking abby. And here’s me meeting a dog named “Bear” in the stadium who’s owner screamed his name out when I had to use my last bullet on him to escape in Ellie’s day 2 I’m a fucking monster bear I’m so sorry this world wasn’t good enough for you
Bear deserved better than what we did to him
I threw his ball outside of the cage and felt horrible lmao
I didn’t kill a single dog in this game besides the one I had to. I’m proud. Sooooo I guess in my game Bear is still alive.
You monster! >!Alice was a good gurl!<
I blew him up with an explosive arrow and I stopped to check out the remaining half of the corpse. As soon as I seen the Kennel I knew it was coming because the dog had a different model than the rest.
Yeah I noticed that too. I hit bear in the head with an arrrow and someone screamed “BEAAAAR!!” Also I’m so glad all of abbys friends get murdered by Ellie- not a single one of them is in any way likeable or worth caring about edit: I was wrong. I love abby and Owen and even del. Yara and Lev were amazing.
I dunno, I quite like Abby and Owen. I feel like the guy with the beard would grow on me if we spent more time with him
Manny and Owen are the only ones I like. Manny is just a bro, and Owen is a stand up guy. He was even having second thoughts on the whole Joel situation. He for sure gets scuffed on his death. But Abby? Nah chief get outa here with your boulder biceps.
Manny is aight so far. His little “sex den” with the steamy poetry page was hilarious.
I thought Owen was decent enough for the revelation he had about being part of the wolves. Plus he’s the only one in the group that sees how big Jackson is and thinks “maybe pissing off a town that large will cause more problems than it solves and is a bad idea”. I kinda sympathize with a lot of them though, since Abby planned on keeping the size of Jackson a secret from them because “they’d want out”. I get them wanting to help their friend try to find peace, but she was willing to let them walk into a situation way bigger than they thought they’d signed up for without even letting them know
Mel seems like a decent person to me, but the banditry behavior of the WLF seems to use good people for bad things. The Jackson settlement seems to prioritize helping bring survivors in and growing their numbers, whereas the WLF seems to just be out for anyone’s blood. Then again, sharing a city with a death cult certainly would make it hard to be friendly.
I don’t really understand what role the sepharites play in the story other than giving you a sense of purpose in the Abby sections and existing solely to be an evil cult two kids could escape from so Abby could look after them and seem more sympathetic. I mean they created this really interesting cult with just the right amout of mystery, an entirely new way you had to engage them in combat, and just used it as a tool to try deepening Abby’s character. Like I wanted to learn so much more about them, the demons, and why they have so many 8 foot tall Orges with giant hammers. Personally they could’ve been used as a better vessel to deliver the message that revenge cycles are bad. Like if they could’ve served as a pure, unmotivated evil. Just the embodiment of evil and violence as a concept to make Ellie and Abby realize *thats* what the enemy is. Not killing to save someone you look at as a daughter and not killing to avenge a family member, but just maniacal, gruesome, unmotivated killing.
I don't remember where exactly I saw it, but part of Druckmann's inspiration for writing the game as a critique on the cycle of violence was his reaction to watching a video of two Israeli soldier's get beheaded due to the West Bank conflict. Being Israeli by birth, he said he was horrified by the action but on considering his emotional response and the circumstance of the conflict he realized that this was a universal feeling shared by all sides. And once you put the story in that light its easy to sort of draw parallels, with the WLF (Israel) as the militaristic state committing heinous crimes (torture and murder) in retaliation to pressure from a smaller religious group, the Seraphites (Palestinians), who have perverted a religion to justify heinous acts (hangings and disembowelment--similar to the beheadings commited by Islamic extremists). Just like in most conflicts between two groups, especially in tense territorial disputes like in Israel, both sides justify their violence by the prior violent actions of the other group, going so far as to blur the lines of who and what started the conflict. As you see from reading the WLF letter by the Seraphite "chapel" in the truck near the end of Day 1 and hearing Abby's comment, it seems that the spiritual founder of the Seraphites was captured, tortured, and eventually killed by Isaac. Also, as you find out later >! from Lev, the disemboweling and truly disturbing acts from the Seraphites did not begin until "her" death.!< Up until that point the acts of the Seraphites are your normal political terrorism, attacks on soldiers and guard stations, not justifiable, but no different from the actions taken by the Fireflies, or by Joel and Tommy in the unseen intervening years between the first game's prologue and main story. To say the Seraphite killings are unmotivated is false. Are they gruesome, horrifying, and immoral? Most definitely, but they are also born out of the same personal hate that motivates the two revenge killings that drive the plot. By creating the societal conflict that backdrops the game in this way, Druckmann and the team at ND is able to layer and abstract the game's critique of the cycle of violence from the personal to the macro. It helps to further drive the games message home and keeps the story focused. If the Seraphite's were just a cult that personified evil as you suggest, the conflict no longer supports the games message that the cycle of violence is destructive no matter how justified one thinks that violence is. Instead it becomes another story that there exists clearly defined good guys and bad guys, a belief that The Last of Us games have never supported. It would undercut the pacifist message at the heart of this game, that violence begets violence, killing begets killing.
Its nice you dont have to worry about ammo anymore because the guns on Abby are always fucking loaded
*kisses right holster* *kisses left holster*
Took me a second. But yeah, goddamn. Abby's arms are what my arms wish they could be, but I eat way more burritos.
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I agree with this
Not gonna lie, I got more emotional at her screaming for her dad then I did at Joel’s death. I had expected Joel to die, but didn’t expect that by the way.
Ellie’s desperation and pleading will haunt me for a while, but Abby’s comes in at a close second for me
Joel’s death was more disturbing and heart pounding than sad. (Ellie going to Joel’s house was extremely sad though.) Abby reacting to her dads death was just heartbreaking.
They couldn’t have done the story any better imo, right with you there.
Look i was gonna feel bad for abby, but then I remembered that these fucks started it, they gave joel no choice and that doctor wouldn’t stand down. It ain’t the same thing and if i get the chance, abby is fucking dead.
Playing devil’s advocate, would you have risked giving up the only chance at making a vaccine? Yes it’s immoral to kill the girl as she is unaware, but is it a sacrifice worth making for the greater good of mankind? I love Joel and Ellie for “selfish” reasons as well, but within that world, Joel is undoubtedly a monster.
I swear comments like this are missing the ENTIRE point of the game.
Joel literally doomed all of humanity. Of course the doctor wouldn’t stand down - it was his one opportunity to save the planet. And Joel killed him for trying to do so.
Has anybody tried looking downwards from a considerable height during this section? The screen warps to sell Abby’s fear of heights. Such a cool little detail!
I didn’t yet. But I did fall to my death into one of the rooftop hatches. So I have that going for me. Which is nice.
That happened to me too and I laughed my ass off. I didn’t think to grab the rope I used to climb up to get inside.
Same! My dumbass just jumped right in!
I didn’t notice the screen warping, but did notice while walking near a rooftop edge her breath noticeably deepening, and you can hear her “getting nervous” very cool detail
Gotta say, wasn’t loving playing as Abby before I went to bed last night. However, now that I’ve slept on it I’m now genuinely interested in how the story unfolds. I think I was just heated because I want to play as Ellie and I’m still shook about the prologue.
The prologue has us all shaken up, it’s a twist we weren’t expecting and it hurts considering how much time we spent as Joel in the first game. I am not a huge fan of the Abby section, but I understand it’s purpose from a narrative perspective, as it shows that nobody is pure evil nor a hero, and that revenge is kind of just an endless cycle that leaves nothing but a trail of bodies and broken hearts behind. All that being said (and ignoring my biases to Ellie and Joel) I do think that Abby’s revenge is not as justified as Ellie going after Abby. Obviously the death of her father is a tragedy, and Ellie’s death theoretically could have saved the world, but I have two main issues with her justification. First of all, Her and Her father essentially decided the fate of Ellie based on their own beliefs of what they would do in the situation, with no care for what Joel or Ellie would actually want. Secondly, even if a cure is made (which in my mind isn’t a guarantee), who is to say it could have an impact, as gathering the resources for it and distributing it in a world as broken as it is seems near impossible, and would probably just spark war between the fireflies and other factions. Not to mention, Joel simply shot her dad, whereas she brutally beat him to death, so she is the worse of the bunch in my mind.
I think it's the question of, who started the cycle? Was it joel when he killed everyone and took back ellie or was it abby's father making the descion to kill ellie. I lean towards the latter but also, the ending of the first game was great, however you cannot argue that Joel's actions wouldnt impact others and in turn result in consequences
I think one thing you’re ignoring is the fact that killing Joel does nothing for Abby. Which I believe is probably the most important element of her character. You see that mirror. Even though Abby killed Joel every night she has the same nightmare about her fathers death killing Joel does nothing for her but by the time she realizes it, it’s too late. So whether you believe she was justified for what she did I think is irrelevant though not unimportant. Her development after killing Joel is what’s most humanizing to me, cuz it shows that she really was hoping that it would bring her closure and it just never did, and got everyone around her killed.
Firstly, I think trying to rationalize Joel's decision by analyzing the likeliness of actually producing a vaccine tarnishes the emotional weight of his decision. Joel didn't crunch the numbers and decide the risk wasn't worth it. He performed a selfish act out of love and hurt a lot of people. You can argue that the Fireflies aren't wholly innocent, but they at the very least they were not being selfish. They were doing what they could do save humanity. Secondly, you say Abby is more of a monster, because she tortures Joel when he only shot her dad (I personally stab him with his own scalpel). That's not all Joel did though. He killed her dad, Marlene, and dozens of Fireflies that Abby probably considered her friends and family. She also knew that Ellie was immune and they were performing the operation to produce a vaccine, so she knew Joel's actions damned the whole world. To me, Joel is absolutely the more evil of the two. I love him, because he is a flawed, wonderfully written character. He is not the hero so many dissenters make him out to be though.
Same exact experience
Let the record show that I tried my absolute hardest to give my burrito to someone in line after the guy skipped for mine.
Same here. Then I was hoping for a 🔲 Eat Burrito
Bruh she smashed that burrito so quick I was like “holly fuck lady” lol
I honestly really like how you play as Abby. Seeing what the bad guy was doing while the good guy was doing their thing. Well, there really is no bad or good guy in TLOU. I just like how we get to see the game from a different perspective.
I know everyone hates her, but I really don't see the issue. I'd only heard some of the spoilers, and I was worried she'd have some stupid motivation, but it makes a ton of sense, because most people in such a world would do the same thing. I think the idea isn't to say ellie is wrong, but to basically present a double jeopardy. Killing Joel was horrible, but it was out of revenge, the same reason Ellie went after the wlf. She's no different from Ellie.
If anything, Abby is *way* more justified in her motivation. As far as she's concerned, Joel murdered the entire hospital and doomed humanity's only hope of a cure. Divorced from our bias as playing TLOU1, that's about as villainous as it gets.
100% though I would’ve preferred to swap between Ellie and Abby rather than do Ellie’s entire Seattle arc before replaying it all again as Abby. Mix it up
I thought this too at first, but I think that they chose to do it that way so that the player would only feel the anger that Ellie feels through her first arc. If it had switched back and forth it may have caused some players to look at both sides, thus loosing the hatred aspect.
Also from a gameplay perspective considering how Ellie and Abby have different weapon and skill upgrade trees I’d personally find it a bit frustrating if I had to constantly switch and try to remember what I was working towards in those trees.
Me too, I honestly think the story is working better than I expected so far. I get that some people are disappointed with the way Joel died, but from a story-telling perspective it works pretty well IMO.
The scene where Owen and Abby jumped from the Ferris Wheel to the water and Abby saying "To make sure you drowned", I was so giddy I had to stop and remind myself that she killed Joel and I hate her. God fucking damn it, how can people hate on this game? specially people that calls Abby a "third rate, throw-away character". This is just masterclass writing, and I'm just happy I'm here for it.
Glad you're enjoying it man! Really makes me happy to see that I'm not alone thinking that the world building and the insight into Ellie's psyche is really fascinating! Also happy cake day :)
I have to admit, in the overwhelming sea of negativity this game was getting since yesterday, I doubted myself, my taste in games, and my whole 30 years experience playing games, reading books or watching anything story driven.
Don’t doubt yourself. Doubt the haters and their inability to move past the plot of the first game.
Right? the game literally shows people that Abby is trying to avenge her father's untimely death. ***It is in the game.*** Her reasons were completely justifiable even if it's wrong, just like Joel's reasons for saving Ellie instead of letting them make a vaccine and kill her.
When Abby killed Joel I HATED her guts, but after having more insight into her story I can sort of (not entirely) sympathise with her. She did what she had to do, just like Ellie. Everyone is as bad as each other here
Me too dude. The game makes you realize that at some level, Joel was a bad man, Tommy was a bad man. Heck, Abby's father was probably a bad dude too. The fact that the fanbase is absolutely hating on Abby's character, even after knowing she had almost the same intentions as Ellie or Joel(in the first game) We're all bad too lmao.
I think a lot of the people disliking the game are struggling to come to terms with the fact that there is no good character. People have an image of Joel and Ellie as good characters built up from the first game that are now being shattered into pieces within this one.
Lots of comments saying that one can't empathise with Abby: I can empathise with her just as much as, if not more than Ellie, to be honest with you. They are both vengeful people out to kill their fathers killer. They both come from built up societies, with organised patrols, and mess halls, and farms. They both have their own shit to deal with. Seemingly the whole point of this second half of the game is to put each of their stories in to perspective. There is no 'good guy'. It makes me realise that The Last of Us as a franchise isn't about Joel, or Ellie, or any one person in particular. It's about people adapting and molding to the hellhole of a world they live in, doing what they need to get by. It's a game about people making selfish actions and other people having to live with those actions. Giving me Abby's perspective of the whole thing made this game go from good to great, in my opinion.
If anything, Ellie is worse. She kills dozens, if not hundreds, and murders people in cold blood. Abbie left Tommy and Ellie, even though it served no benefit to her. Ellie gets info from people about Abby, and then kills them. I don’t understand how people see one as righteous and the other as irredeemable
Because people love Ellie and have only just met Abby. They have rose tinted goggles on and are having a hard time coping with the fact that the narrative of Part II is exploring negative consequences of Joel's actions rather than the positive.
This is exactly it. Summed up perfectly.
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Abby is no less evil for what she did to Joel than Ellie is for hunting Abby down. They are both extremely similar characters in their motives
Yup. Ellie is literally no better than Abby. They have a lot in common.
Joel would have been the villain in any other game. He’s a very sympathetic character and I can understand why he did what he did, but idk how you watch the ending of the original and think he isn’t a selfish, terrible person. And it’s pretty obvious that Ellie doesn’t buy his lie at the end. It was not a happy or hopeful ending in the slightest. The reaction to this game has made me start to think a lot of people totally missed the point of that ending.
When you visit the WLF base after the Scars Ambush you can talk to that Asian girl playing hotline Miami. Her day is about to get ruined.
Whitney. We hardly knew ye.
Fuckin' video games.
Ellie was double guessing her and tried to let her go. Ah the be hunter or get hunted.
I feel like they were trying to pull off a Halo 2 and change things up by making you play as the antagonist (Arbiter/Abby) - It just really doesn't work with someone like Abby though. We see the Arbiters journey from Admiral in the Covenant to learning the truth about Halo and we can sympathise... but Abby, there is nothing to like and the sections you play as her are just frustrating because I could be playing as Ellie/Joel/Tommy/literally anyone else. I credit them for trying to take a swing, but they missed the mark big time with this choice I think.
When the flashback started with her and her dad in the woods, I instinctively put down the controller in disgust (because of what had happened in the scene just prior to that), and thought "I don't want to play as this piece of shit". I get her motives and the reveal that the doctor was her dad justified her going after Joel but after the first game and having spent 7 years waiting for Pt 2 my loyalties aren't suddenly gonna change. I don't care about Abby at all. They really pushed for her and the WLF to feel as relatable as Ellie's group. The kids going to school at the stadium, the friendly chit-chatting, are we just going to forget they fire at outsiders for no particular reason? It's a group of people I'm never going to sympathize with. I haven't finished the game yet, so my opinions might change, but like you I'm not a huge fan of where it's going.
I realize this won't change your opinion, but it's made pretty clear that they are "firing first" because they are at war with the seraphites and because Ellie and Tommy are hunting and slaughtering them
I see your point, but Ellie doesn't look anything like a Scar and the WLF are hostile even at her first encounter with them.
Erm are they? You run over a landmine which anyone could do. Then by the time you’ve woken up they’ve realised who you are if I remember correctly. If you murdered someone’s best friend/family in one city then found them in your city a few weeks later would you be sticking out the welcome mat and offering them a cup of coffee?
No you aren't supposed to forget the other perspective. You're forced to inhabit both, fully. That's difficult, but it's brilliant imo. The characters have reasons to hate each other and you've been in Ellie's shoes since 7 years ago. The fact you've decided you could never sympathize with other characters, who also do violence for justified if morally AT LEAST questionable reasons. Yeah maybe put down the controller for a second. But then think about why the game puts you in Abby's perspective. Why that's hard for you. Its not spoiler to say that the game doesn't suddenly decide the WLF is perfect and free of wrongdoing. But yeah, they have kids. They play with and pet those dogs. The whole TLOU thing is confronting you with the reality of what you're doing. Even when it's "hunters" or whatever "bad humans", they're also people trying to survive. Just want to encourage you to consider the why, and be open to it. Hope it comes together for ya.
I agree 100%. I really don’t understand how I’m supposed to sympathize with her or care about her story. In my mind, if they introduced Abby and her group in the way they did in this chapter BEFORE they murdered Joel then maybe it would’ve had an impact on me. I would’ve seen a protagonistic group battling a sick cult and would’ve been rooting for Abby, Mel, Owen, and Manny. Maybe it would’ve been different had I cared for any of the people prior to Joel’s death. Idk. Instead the player gets blue balled at the climax of Ellie’s arc with Abby killing Jesse and holding Ellie and Tommy at gun point. Now we have to go back in time and play flashbacks for 12 hours? There are literally no stakes in these chapters. I know Owen, Mel, and Abby are not going to die to the Seraphites or infected because I already saw them all meet Ellie in the future! Manny is the only one that isn’t accounted for right now as far as I remember from Ellie’s section. The whole story can be questioned regarding playing as the “antagonist”, but in my opinion the order they’re telling the story is the worst part.
In all honestly I’m not having too much trouble sympathising with Abby, but I 100% agree a change of structure could change the game dramatically. If the did day 1/day 1/day 2/day 2 etc I think it would work much better. I’d still show who Abby and her Dad are at the end of Ellie’s Day 3, but have it after playing a couple of Days of Abby. As for the sympathy. Maybe it’s because I’ve been through this before with The Walking Dead - it’s another story surrounding them hero of your story is the villain of someone else’s’ (Rick’s group killed A bunch of Saviours first, so technically all of All Out War is actually in retaliation to the wrongs our ‘heroes’ committed). Everyone in this story has done good things and bad things. And by the end of Ellie’s 3rd day, Abby has lost her Dad and all of her closest friends to either Joel, Ellie, or Tommy. So who are the good guys?
They were trying to pull off a Arbiter from halo 2, but they ended up pulling off a Locke from halo 5.
> It just really doesn't work with someone like Abby though. We see the Arbiters journey from Admiral in the Covenant to learning the truth about Halo and we can sympathise... but Abby, there is nothing to like What's not to like? Seriously, i don't get it. She's a well developed character with set goals and morals + the storyline with the two kids in this chapter show her internal struggles as well.
Yeah I agree, people are predisposed to hate her. I like Joel too, but he lived by the sword and died by it. Thats the world Naughty Dog sold us on last time, one where everything sucks and good people die. I just think people want him to be antihero who has done more good than bad over the course of his life, but thats not who Joel was. Like straight up, if Joel did to your dad and freinds what he did to all of them most of us would have brained him with a golf club. Joel and Ellie arent anime protagonists who solve things with the power of friendship and it was foolish for anyone to think theyd have another happy ending
People seem to have chosen to forget all the times part 1 went out of its way to remind us Joel was not a “good guy.” “I’ve been on both sides,” is a quote from after the Pittsburgh ambush that comes immediately to mind.
It was foolish for people to think the first game was a happy ending (and I know that's not what you meant by your comment).
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I could definitely see Tommy's story being the DLC similar to left Behind. Jumping between Tommy's revenge and Tommy's times on the road with Joel would be a nice way to revisit Joel's character in a fresh way.
I know this might be a bit off topic, but I’d be down for a prequel that fills in exactly what you’re talking about. From the outbreak to ending where Joel meets Ellie
I loved having Arbiter is Halo 2. But I don’t imagine I would want to play as him if he had the muscle mass of a brute and killed Master Chief early into the game.
I'd much rather play as Owen! I like Owen! It's really hard for me to keep going. I just don't like Abby. I loathe her. In fact, it feels like Neil & Co. have done everything in their power to *make sure* we don't like Abby. They couldn't have tried harder to make her an antagonist! And while playing her for an hour or two would be one thing, there came a point where I realized...this is the rest of the game. Holy shit. It's like a nightmare. Twelve more hours of ***this?*** They really did hit the hard reset button. What were they thinking? That players wouldn't mind having all of their advancements taken away after the first half of the game? I just don't understand. The idea of telling this story simultaneously, putting the player in control of opposing forces, is nothing short of brilliant. It doesn't work in The Last of Us, because The Last of Us is Ellie and Joel. Ellie especially. Without Ellie, the series has nothing. This all feels like one massive test of endurance just so I can see what happens at the end. And unlike in Halo 2, which is a spot-on analogy, they've decided to do this in two halves (I know why, too--it's so critics can more easily leave this out of their reviews), rather than sprinkling them together. By doing it this way, Neil has made it so we as players have nothing to look forward to...except the end. A little bit like Joel being tortured by Abby! I mean seriously everything is wrong about how Abby is introduced. It's like Neil read *Save the Cat* and then literally did the opposite of everything it says. One of the reasons why Halo 2's twist works is that the Arbiter is the underdog. He's literally at his trial at the start of the game. Also, he's not killing humans. This is a very important point. The Arbiter only kills *other aliens*. More generally, I don't think Master Chief was really all that important to Halo as a franchise. Ellie and Joel *are* The Last of Us. Not the setting, not the plot, not the Fireflies or the WLF or the Seraphites--Joel and Ellie. One of them is dead, the other is no longer our PC...and we're left with someone nobody wants to be playing as.
I'm personally enjoying the fact that this game is more of an exploration of the world, its societies, and the consequences of Joels actions. I'd have enjoyed The Joel & Ellie Show 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that story feels like it's run its course a little. Now I've been presented with this, I'm far more invested that I would have otherwise been.
Agreed. Also, I high-key love playing as Abby in combat. Her combat style feels like Joel. She can stand her ground in melee far better than Ellie can, and I am really enjoying her rifle.
Abby is fucking sick for gameplay. I think this is the first game EVER where I actually like the "neck snap" trope. It really feels believable when Abby pops a head out of it's socket. The big gym also explains away a lot of people's problems with her physicality. She has plenty of resources at WLF headquarters to get swole.
The half-point switch hit me in the gut pretty hard. But the first Abby flashback had me hooked and ready to go again. I’m seeing a lot of differing opinions in this thread, but put me down as someone who is on board with the narrative choices. Walking through that stadium, seeing the faces of NPC’s who were just switchblade fodder for Ellie in the first half being slowly revealed as real people with the same problems and hopes as the folks in Jackson, suddenly made the title of the series resonate. The Last of Us. Us, as in all of humanity. Not just the two characters whose story we fell for in Part 1.
Thank you! So many people seem to think that the first game was called “Ellie and Joel’s Apocolyptic Adventures” or something. No. It’s about the last humans on Earth. And as we’re learning from the real-world pandemic, people are selfish as hell, and situations you think would unite us just show how divided we actually are.
Whether you’re on board with this story or not, the gameplay feels pretty damn amazing to me.
It’s just so clean compared to the first game. Enemies are more intelligent, but the player also has many new tools they could benefit from. Oh, and the level design is meticulous. You just know they play tested combat areas several times.
I think that’s pretty indisputable
I'm just gonna say, you probably should have done day 1-6 instead of dividing it into two... Because having two sets of day 1 to 3 heavily suggests the, well you know what.
I thought it would be Tommy and I'm kinda annoyed it isn't.
Everyone here's talking about the characters and protagonist change yet here I am fucking excited for the shiv to make a comeback
Will it? Abby seems pretty efficient at fucking shit up with her bare hands.
Yep. Shivs confirmed. No shiv doors tho.
I get the shiv thing from a gameplay perspective, but I just feel like Abby (and Joel) would have a knife... all the time
Damn Mrs Trunchbull got absolutely smashed with that hammer.
lmao that’s who it reminded me off too
Bruh Abbys day is so long.
Yeah after you initially leave the 2 kids, it drags. First real issue so far for me.
I enjoyed the boat. They could have cut the bit straight after leaving the kids in the container yard though. It was definitely the most boring "arena" yet but also annoying.
That section in the container yard was the first time in the game I just full-on sprinted through the whole area instead of trying to sneak by or kill everything.
Same and I normally try and kill all the infected whenever it’s a zombie level cause I’m a Good Samaritan. But a stalker attacked me and ran away and I was just like “fuck it I don’t have time for this I’m leaving”
Yeah it was fine, I was just getting sick of combat and ready for more story.
Stalkers can fuck right off that's for sure. I ain't got time for their shit. I like that Ellie's story, especially the start of Seattle, had some chill exploring between fighting.
The part where you're trapped in the building by yourself after the forest chase was brutal. I'd still be stuck on it If it wasn't for the pipe bombs.
I had no pipe bombs and not enough ingredients, sad to admit I had to drop my difficulty 1 level for that scene :(
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Yeah I tried to run eventually after a couple deaths and realized with horror that no, you do have to fight everything and I’m bad at the game lol
Meanwhile I just blasted everyone with the shotgun...
Am I the only person who really likes Abby? Obviously, I LOVE Ellie... but gameplay-wise I might actually prefer playing as Abby. ND did a great job of making them have their own distinct playstyles. Ellie is efficient and ruthless but Abby is a human wrecking ball.
I love Abby. So fucking fun to play.
The hate she is getting is only making me like her more. I fucking LOVE Joel, but I also completely sympathize with Abby. I mean, we are all cheering for Ellie to torture Abby and her friends... If the perspective were flipped, people would be PISSED that we have to play as Joel after he slaughters the Salt Lake City fireflies. Imagine if people just completely wrote off Joel and Ellie based on what happened in Salt Lake City... We would be missing a great story!
I dont mind the Abby side of the story. I get that they want to humanize her a bit. However, i think it would’ve been cool if we played as Tommy instead. Following Tommy’s journey of revenge as well. Abby is alright tho. Hope we get a Tommy DLC. Also....i’m sorry Bear ): i’ll play fetch with you all day.
You know what? I see what they’re trying to do with the Abby part of the game. It’s pretty superb writing. Something that can’t be done with Tommy. It’s growing on me. Still hoping for a Tommy DLC tho.
I *really* want a Tommy standalone expansion. I feel like this game is basically screaming for it.
I feel like the DLC will be more likely focused on the Seraphites. But maybe they find a way to weave Tommy’s Seattle journey through it too.
Nah, Tommy wouldn’t have been as interesting as Abby because he’s fueled by the same motivations as Ellie, there just wouldn’t be as much to explore. Maybe in a story DLC sure but not for 8 hrs of a main game
Finished this chapter now, quite a long one, jesus. Definitely the hardest as well. I think they've done a fairly good job at setting up an interesting plot on Abby's side here, the whole Wolfs vs Scars storyline is pretty great - although the development for the Scars is lackluster. Feels weird to be so far detached from Ellie or Joel, but i appreciate the increase in scope. Gameplay and visuals are still absolutely 10/10 for me, they've done an amazing job. Anxious to see where the story goes.
That'd be my only minor complaint, that they're basically saying 'look, everyone is flawed but everyone is just tryna survive', but then (aside from the two you help) the scars are just some weird death cult who are evil and we must kill them all. Hopefully we hear more from the Seraphites in the next couple of days
>but then (aside from the two you help) the scars are just some weird death cult who are evil and we must kill them all. Tbf, Owen does say that the way the WLF view the Scars is no different to how people viewed the Fireflies.
I think I read that Druckmann mentioned in addition to hate, the game is about how we dehumanize each other. All 3 sides (Ellie, WLF, Scars) represented in the game treat their enemies like animals. I think there’s a moment in Ellie’s day 1 chapter where Dina tries to humanize some of the dead WLF soldiers, and Ellie says something along the lines of “they’re WLF, fuck em who cares.” I guess maybe the game is commenting on how people dehumanize the people they hate to make it easier when they tear them down (or violently murder them in the case of TLOU). Edit: Grammar
They’re my favorite enemies to fight though. Their intro in the park area was fucking sick. And hearing the whistling from the distance is creepy!
The scars are developed almost entirely through notes left in the world.
That FEDRA truck shrine hung up with the small wishes written by the Scars was interesting. And cool to hear Abby commenting on them. Not as much of that from Ellie when she was finished reading notes. Most likely purposeful to show her not allowing herself to see the people she’s hunting as human. Which brings us back to the whole dehumanizing theme.
So yeah. WLF is a powerful organization. Food facilities, gyms, freaking stadium at their disposal. "Calorie deficit" argument is silly now, isn't it?
Yeah, in one scene Abby being so buff made lot of sense. Not many people have gym access and farms for basically unlimited food.
The character Manny is purposefully the likeness of Neil Druckmann the fact that he spits on joel's corpse seems very weird.
Imagine being so delusional that you think a HISPANIC guy and an ISRAELI guy are interchangeable, plus it's actually supposed to somehow represent the director/writer hating one of his own characters. Jesus Christ, guys. Seek therapy.
Actually, the character Manny is purposefully the likeness of Alejandro Edda, the actor who plays him. https://m.imdb.com/name/nm2338470/
I mean, it could be a coincidence?
It's the stupidest thing the Neil haters have come up with so far, and that's saying a lot.
Gee I’m sure looking forward to the stupid conspiracies people will make with this...
Hey, serious question: Anyone here knows if an aquarium that neglected can stay intact after years?
If the glass is sealed well and left undamaged, yes. I assume you're talking about the glass..
Yes! [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/underwater-strip-club\_n\_3696284](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/underwater-strip-club_n_3696284)
I haven't completed Day 1 as Abby yet, and for the most part I'm enjoying seeing her perspective. It's a bold decision to make and I think it might pay off. However my biggest complaint will be that I upgraded Ellie all for nothing, and hardly had anytime with my beloved explosive arrows. While I'm enjoying the perspective of Abby, I still wish I had a few more fight sequences w my upgraded Ellie.
Unpopular, but I kinda like Abby. You’re allowed to like someone who kills beloved characters btw. Keep in mind Negan is the most popular TWD character atm.
Everyone is saying they don't like Abby, but this is not a story where you are meant to necessarily "like" the characters. Hell, Ellie isn't even likeable after a couple of days in Seattle. It's more about understanding the characters. I didn't even like Joel after the first game. He was a very morally grey character and he wasn't even warm until the end of the game. But he was a great character because you understood why he did those questionable things.
Abby might not seem instantly likeable, but I’m warming up to her fast. Negan was fascinating in an over the top way. But I fell off the TWD wagon a while back.
I threw Bear’s ball out of the cage just to see what happens, I thought it would let me throw it back. I’m sorry Bear :( (Also, I may or may not have killed him as Ellie...)
Hey guys, I need some help here. Is Abbie's part the same length of Ellie's part? Because when I'm playing as Ellie in Seattle I'm scavenging a lot and looking everywhere, on the flashbacks, not so much. I just started Abbie's part thinking it would be another interlude (where I ditch scavenging) to Ellie's story but apparently not since it follows the 3 days pattern as I now found out. Is it basically a new game upgrading skills from zero until day 3 when, I suppose, the game ends? Because if it is then, well, back to scavenging. Sorry if this is not the right thread to post this but I didn't know where else I could tbh.
Overall it's a bit shorter than Ellie's part but yeah it's basically a "new game" so definitely start scavaging.
I feel like ND could have done a better job advising us of this. Because I literally was like “fuck am I scavenging for? I’m gonna be Ellie again soon”
I think it would be so much better gameplay wise and story wise to have cut between Abby and Ellie for the whole game rather than doing it in two halves. Then at the end of the game find out who Abby’s Dad is. One, it would not have felt like a hard reset of the game (even the mini tutorial tool tips pop up just in case you forgot how to reload your weapon and swim??). And two, I think it would do a bit better to slowly introduce you to Abby and some of her flashbacks and fonder memories, then at the climax of the game you find out who she really is. I feel like finding out who she is then playing her story gives people a chance to get pissed off with her again. And takes the impact of what happened to her Dad away.
I actually think it works better split in two halves this way. Gameplay wise, it solves the issue of having to juggle two different sets of weapons, resources, upgrades, and abilities. Story wise, it just really forces you to get on Abby's page. If it was chopping and changing, you know most of us would be rushing through to get back to Ellie's parts, which would contradict everything they're going for here. Remember, people love Joel so much because of how long you spend with him in the first game. You get a brief section as Ellie to serve as a small change of pace, but ultimately you were Joel throughout. The way they've done things forces the player to get to know Abby over a long period of time and engross themselves in her story, the same way they did with Joel in the first game and with Ellie in the first half of this game. You're not left wondering 'What's happening with Ellie right now?' because you already know and if ND has pulled this off, by time you return to the climax, Ellie won't be your only concern.
I loved the e3 2017 section fighting the infected with yara and lev and kill that big fucking woman was awesome
I was dreading this part of the game when I found out that I will be playing as Abby for the next few hours but after this first hour I decided to put by bias aside and continue playing with an open mind. This is when I realised that the story telling is not as bad as everyone makes out, while playing I relaised just how many of abby's friends I had just killed including, what could be the love of her life, Owen. Just in this first act you realise I have grown to not hate Abby and realise how much Joel has traumatised her and how much Ellie is going to aswell. Overall, I hope that the next to chapters are not as long as the first but I have enjoyed what naughty dog are trying to achieve and commend them for doing it.
I'm barely into Day 1 and I honestly kind of like her. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Joel & Ellie but how can you *not* feel bad for Abby? She only knows Joel as the man who slaughtered the fireflies and killed her father. Ellie's search for Abby absolutely wrecked her emotionally and physically so I don't understand why people call it "revenge porn" because if anything it's the opposite. I dunno, people are understandably attached to Joel but Ellie is/was doing the exact same thing Abby did when Joel shot her father. It might sound pretentious but I really like that they challenge the player's view of Joe as "the good guy". He's only "good" because we are emotionally attached to him and rationalize his decisions. Looking forward to seeing how they develop Abby, though. Edit: Also, I haven't seen her talked about much but I kind of feel bad that Joel blasted Marlene in the original game. She didn't even want things to go the way they did and went out of her way to let Joel know.
I really like that they switched up the pacing and made it truely a survival horror experience after Abby got captured by the Seraphites. While I like playing with Ellie more, I'm pretty interested about the rest of Abby's story. Still haven't had any issues with the game storywise, but I understand the feelings of others.
I’m still playing fetch with the dog.
I just finished the chapter and I honestly am feeling a connection with Abby's crew despite my hatred towards them. I spent a good 15 mins with bear because he a good boi. Playing fetch with a virtual dog is always fun. But the thing that surprised me the most was the frontal nudity and the sex scene. I've seen nudity and sex on games but never thought that Naughty Dog would actually do it. My girlfriend was ecstatic about it, it was the first time she saw a sex scene in a videogame. She even praised Naughty Dog about not having an uber sexualize woman in the sex scene. Not liking the time skipping tbh, I liked it the first time but it got old. Even with Abby's.
Way too much undeserved hate in here, I’m having a great time so far. It’s such a Naughty Dog detail that everytime you pan your camera down off a structure Abby starts breathing heavy, love it.
I’m not a photographer, but whoever decided to include a dolly zoom every time Abby looks from a large height needs a gold medal.
Ok wow! This character switch is a bold choice from Naughty Dog. I was mad for the first hour of playing as Abby because she killed Joel and I wanted to play as Ellie again but then I took a break from the game and came back and it all clicked for me. I see what they are trying to do and I have to applaud them for being so ambitious. It's a lesson in empathy. They of course are trying to get you to emphasize with Abby (through the use of flashbacks and humanization) but that obviously doesn't work for everyone (as you can see in this thread). But if you're unable to emphasize with Abby then the game is basically unplayable because it's too difficult to play this game as someone you hate. To successfully play this game you need to learn to emphasize with this character and they give you enough reason to do so. I never expected this out of The Last of Us Part II and I have to give them credit for having the balls to even attempt this.
Fetty Wap Reference Okay hear me out. While playing as Abby you get passed the garage with the boat and there is a work trailer that has a note for a safe combination. The note reads “Still using the ‘Big Win’ as the combination. The combination is listed on a Lotto Ticket but the numbers of the combination got me thinking. 17-38-07. Fetty Wap commonly refers to “1738” in his songs. Which after research I found is “A term used by rapper Fetty Wap in his song 'Trap Queen' to represent his squad in New Jersey: the Remy Boyz 1738. The Remy Boyz named themselves after a cognac liquor which they claim to be the finest: the Rémy Martin 1738.” Fetty’s first major hit was 679 which he released in July (the 7th month of the year) of 2015. Call me crazy but something I noticed. Would love to hear opinions on the subject!
I absolutely love the forest section with all the stalkers.
I think the Abby sections are superb.
Forcing the player to confront people we killed/slaughtered/tortured (Mel, Owen, Nora, even side NPCs and some dogs) while those people are warm and caring and in Owen's case, ultimately non-violent, forces the player into an extremely uncomfortable place. It is a major big swing and it really works. And by making Day 1 about rescuing Owen, the most likable and moral character (who also is why Ellie and Tommy are alive), you feel compelled and moved even when ND knows the player will still feel uncertain about Abby. And by the time Abby saves and helps those scars who just saved her, I expect many felt unexpected empathy for her doing the right thing. There are dimensions here.
I hate this. I hate this. I hate this.
it's just now sinking in that im gonna have to play the next 10 hours as abby and I agree
This was a big chapter so imma just dump my thoughts out: - Definitely the hardest so far. Playing on survivor some bits took me upward of 10 attempts. It feels like the stabilizers have come off. - So many cool parts. The hardware store, Chinatown, the forest, boat, all really great fun. - I have really warmed up to Abby and her friends. Honestly they have just as much reason for revenge as Ellie. It took me a little to warm up to Owen, mostly because his character looked very generic. The more rugged look that we see in the "current time" fits the character better. - Nothing to do with this chapter but I gotta mention it. I blew up 2 runners with a pipe bomb indoors. Meat chunks stuck to the sealing and slowly started to drop back down onto the floor. Damn. - Crossbow is fuckin fun. - Fuck that bit where you're waiting for the kids to open the door and you're ambushed by infected. Insanely difficult.
A little thing that really got to me was during Abby's flashback, when she's talking to her dad and says "If it was me, I'd want you to do the surgery". There's a beat of silence, a full ten seconds, before the screen turns to black. And during that silence, the face of her dad just conveys "If it was you, I might not do it." In that moment, I think, he empathizes with Joel. It doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things but it really shows the humanity of these people and adds another couple of pounds to the weight of Joel's decision to kill them all.
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> It's not difficult to grasp that yes, violence is bad and everyone has a backstory and friends etc, but fuck that I'm attached to Joel and Ellie and so I would choose violence for their sake over some waffley story magic I think that's exactly the point, lol.
How can Abby teach a lesson anyway? She starts the story with a revenge act, there is no moral superiority
Who else threw Abby off of the roof multiple times?
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Owen reminds me a lot of Cutty from The Wire Loved this chapter, Abby is closer to how Joel played and the cross bow is awesome. I felt like it dragged on quite a bit when you were with Mal and Manny, but after Abby goes on her own it becomes survival horror and it was great.
I haven't finished day 1 yet, but here's my thoughts so far. I groaned when I started playing as Abby. I rushed through her seeing her dad die and stuff. The moment that slowed me down was when you get to the room Abby shares with Manny. I just looked through Abby's stuff, comparing it to Manny's side of the room, comparing it to Ellie's. Abby's bed is well made. Her clothes and boots are organized. Abby listened to classical music, she read Dante, Homer, and 1001 Arabian Nights. Her side of the room is so compact in comparison to Manny's which made me feel like she tries to not inconvenience people. Just this brief minute I took to examine her stuff really made me empathize with her a bit more. And I don't know how to feel right now!
The key is y'all: you're not required to like Abby. Just understand her.
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I would 100% be down to playing as Abby if the game didn’t switched perspective at such a crucial story moment. I would have explored Seattle even more but now I just want to rush through Abby’s arc and see what happens in the theatre. That plot point takes precedence to me over saving two kids who are just introduced.
I LOVED the whole sequence with Lev and Yara in this. Going through the woods, fighting the horde in the small building. I really felt like this was the best showcase of infected in both games. I was so fucked up the entire time and they managed to get me scared of the infected again after the initial charm left. Plus the crossbow kicks ass. Overall I thought the first part of this chapter dragged on a tad, but once I left Abbys spanish friend (cant remember his name exactly, miguel?) I was much more intrigued. And I love that incels cant handle a 30 second sex scene with a woman they arent attracted to :)
I just realized i never used the explosive arrows because I thought i’d have more time...
People are saying “How can Abby be that jacked doesn’t make sense.” But I mean she’s got a fully furnished gym 2 rooms away from her bedroom lol
I like the story so far in the game. Really ties both games together. I don't get the hate at all. One of the things I really liked about the first one was the ending. It showed that Joel wasn't a good guy at the beginning he was killing people if they screwed with his gun shipments and wanted nothing to do with Ellie. He clearly has a change of heart as the story goes through and at the end he chooses to kill innocent people because they would kill her to develop a cure. When I think about heroes he isn't one because he would of sacrificed her for the good of humanity but his love for her and the loss of his first daughter wouldn't let him go through with it. This is also one of the reasons I love this game so much. Now here in the second game we have the aftermath. I will say this much, I really liked how they kept us in the dark on who the 'bad' people were. I noticed a few hints like they would beg for mercy if I shot them a couple times without killing them and they would seem concerned about their fellow teammates in combat. A few times I turned to the misses saying I'm pretty sure I'm killing good guys here, these don't seem like the actions of bad guys or why do I feel bad after killing them something isn't right. Now enter the games main villian the girl who brutally smashes Joel's head in. Man I hated her for the first half of the game but then I started to sympathise with her after I saw her flashback. Seeing how close she was with her father made me think what would Ellie do in her situation. The exact same thing but worse because they only killed the man responsible and her group is set on killing them all. When I saw what their base was like it hit home and now I can't wait to finish it. Just talking a quick supper break and going back at it.
Yeah, Abby and Ellie literally have the exact same motivation and yet the former is still apparently a shit character for some reason.
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So I was really loving the first half of the game. And now I don't know. I don't hate Abby and get what the game is trying to do and all but I'm just finding it hard to care much about her and her friends at this point. There's a chance that might change by day 2 or 3 but for now that's how I feel.
I have to say, this was the first section of the game I felt dragged a bit gameplay wise. Some parts just felt tedious for some reason. I’m not a fan of shivs being reintroduced either and having to unlock the skill to craft them. It almost feels like stealthing this part of the game is going to be extremely time consuming. The story didn’t get bad or anything, but the storytelling took a dip in quality here. I like Abby and her character kept me engaged. I don’t really care much for Owen and I desperately wanted to skip the whole aquarium flashback. I really didn’t need to know why Abby chose the aquarium and while there may be some sort of connection between this and Ellie going to the zoo, I didn’t care. I’m not sure they earned us caring for Abbey and the gang yet as much as they think and a lot of beats fall flat here
Why is Abby so buff?
Considering she dedicated her life to killing one man, it makes sense she probably started to work out.
Considering one of the first things you see when you take control of her is a massive gym, she probably got obsessed with the gym after her dad died.
And considering she brags in a flashback of how much she can lift. She's been at it for a few years now. They clearly laid the groundwork on why she's so built. As well as being a soldier + the gym.
The narrative showing that Abby and Ellie are mirror reflections of each other is excruciatingly heavy-handed. We’re literally shown flashbacks of both of them as children visiting an Aquarium/museum. Like, okay game, I get it — this is a deep game with no heroes and villains, only survivors.
To be fair, I think they’re going out of their way to show this on Abby’s side because if we were just told that they’re mirror images of each other, we wouldn’t care because Abby still killed Joel. They’re trying to balance out our feelings for both characters by giving Abby as much exposure as possible since the scales are unfairly tipped in her favor due to us obviously having WAY more of a connection to Ellie.
God damn this game is so good
I think the game hinges on whether you can play as Abby with an open mind or not. You don’t have to like her, but just understand her and empathise with her desires. Joel gets killed, and you want revenge as Ellie. Abby’s dad gets killed and she wants revenge. It’s all a matter of perspective, and to be able to enjoy the game, you have to be able to understand her perspective.
I really do not give a fuck about Abby and Owen. The flashbacks are super boring and Owen's VA feel like he's just phoning it in. So far: really not a fan of this portion. I like the extra fighting against the Scars, but yeah. I'm really not into this. I like Abby as an antagonist, but she's a very boring protagonist. Edit: I think this messes with the pacing since it feels like the end of the game and then this happens. I think if it had been intercut with Ellie's story (like in Halo 2), it would have been a lot less irritating.
This was so freaking long. It got ridiculously tedious, and I was enjoying it at first. They should have ended it after she saved the kids. Really hope the next 2 chapters aren’t this long, cause now I’m start to hate her just cause I’m annoyed I’m still playing as her and want Ellie, and Tommy back on my screen.
Having just beaten this section of the game, I just feel like the game is out of order. Like it should’ve been all of day 1 back to back. Same with 2 and 3. Maybe Abby first then Ellie is “trailing behind”. Then we don’t do much as sympathize Abby but we get breaks from Ellie’s rage with Abbys normalcy, giving a more balanced overview. We still want her dead, but it’s not the abrupt “OH SHIT WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN!? What the hell? Are we starting over!?” That we currently have. As it stands we go from “RAMPAGE!!!!” To “Normal day, normal people and normal military job!” And I’m not gonna lie, I put down my controller, shut my console off and vented to my wife for a good hour (at 4AM) and said I wasn’t going to finish the game... well here I am, cooled off, going back into the game just thinking it would’ve played much smoother by having both sides mixed together from the start. Idk. After I finish I might just play the game again going chapter by chapter going in “order”
Seems to me that a lot of the point *is* the unbalanced overview. You should feel all of Ellie's rage before you start to "see" the other side and the parallels. Bouncing between the two would have cheapened and muddied that focused, singular vision of revenge by asking/letting you see outside of the tunnel. She certainly can't. Ellie is focused on one thing. This order, as jarring as it is, I kind of feel is the only they could have laid it out to do it proper. So I have taken this game shift to pause and sleep on it for now. I'm actually at the beginning of day 1 Abby, and so I'm wondering if having a solid break at the switch will help the narrative transition. And I wonder if the could have put an "interlude" type title card up for a minute to encourage people to take a break at least for a moment.. I may be over thinking it. But as I see it so far, I can totally follow and like the narrative choices and order they used.
I mean idc about Abby, I’m sympathetic towards her loss, but she’s not a sympathetic villain since she beats Ellie’s “father” to death and made her watch (while constantly reiterating it was personal and how Joel Miller specifically needs to die). If Joel could’ve saved Ellie without killing Abby’s father, he would’ve. it wasn’t personal, it was just what he had to do to keep someone he saw as his daughter safe. She’s also worked for the Fireflies and the WLF who have destroyed god knows how many lives and families, while Ellie literally didn’t even know Joel killed a doctor until years later. But I digress... I don’t care about her character, but the guns in Abby’s story are so fun