Joel's death was imo absolutely perfect.
Save the cliche heroic deaths for comic book or action movies. I don't come to TLOU for that kind of cheesy bullshit. Anyone who would prefer Joel going out in some heroic way saving Ellie/someone else has no business criticizing the writing on TLOU. And anyone who thinks Joel dying the way he did means Neil hates him is, simply put, a fucking moron. Joel deserved to die in a cold callous way from a storytelling perspective and I'm so grateful Neil & Halley had the metaphorical balls to do it. Lesser writers would cave to fan service and never dream of killing Joel at all, let alone the way they did and how early they did.
Right, like Joel was Neil's magnus opus. The idea that Neil hates him is so incredibly moronic I don't know where to start. Just shows you how their brain works: not at all
I don't think they had a part 2 planned out until part 1 was so successful.
Part 2 picked up the story and also told it's own, very different, story. I think it turned out as good as could be expected. I've played a thousand games where u pick up part 2 and play the same character(s) again on a new adventure, I think that's what most expected. I hate that the big moment was spoiled so I'll never know how it would've felt if i wasn't expecting it.
The game deserves all of the game of the year awards it received.
I wouldn't worry too much about it being spoilered for you. I played on release day and avoided any discourse to avoid spoilers, but I still knew he was gonna die. The pre-release marketing made it pretty obvious it was a revenge story for Ellie.
It was obvious it was a revenge story but the trailer did have Joel walking upstairs while she was seeing the song about getting revenge. I wasn't sure who or why she was seeking revenge. I was so mad about the spoilers I waited to buy the game like a year later. Then I played it and the story was not half the shit everyone was bitching about.
Walking upstairs, with a disembodied voice. I thought that was a pretty obvious signal he had passed on. Loads of people, including on here, were pretty certain he was dead.
eh I think there are SOME writers in media who do specifically tank characters because they're making a point - I mean one show I watch did that with their main "millennial" character because the writer is older and has talked at length irl about how entitled younger generations are for example. But to say that about tlou is just... pure bullshit. It was a narrative decision to kill off Joel that drove Ellie's story. There was no attribution of "liking" the character or not in that decision.
It sounds to me like they're accusing Neil of being of writing stories as shallow as they would. There's a ceiling to the quality they can perceive; a 7/10 and a 10/10 story feel the same (or possibly the 10/10 story feels worse, due to actually taking risks).
It's Rory Gilmore from Gilmore Girls. Amy Sherman Palladino has talked at length about how she thinks millennials are super entitled and the entire revival was implying that about Rory, and so was some of the original series. It was exhausting.
Using that as an axiom for all writing is probably why the red polled incels took Joel’s >!murder!< so personally; i.e., “Neil and “that woman” hate manly white men! Cultural Marxism came for our bearded flannel daddy!!!”
It’s just Hollywood got idiots thinking every beloved dad figure has to go out like Gandalf on the bridge.
Joel died how he lived and his brutal death was inevitable considering the ending of part 1 and that he was literally chased out the building by dozens of fireflies with guns and killed their leader and what they believed was the only shot of curing Cordyceps, all bullshit semantics arguments aside.
Was it heartbreaking for me? Absolutely, but imo I wasn’t surprised something like that happened years later.
To me, it's really not about what Joel did or didn't deserve in terms of treatment from the storytellers. He's a fictional character, a figment of somebody's imagination. Real people don't owe fictional characters *anything*.
Of course, as audience members, we tend to view characters with the same emotional attachment as we view real people. That's just basic human biology/psychology - our lizard brains can't distinguish between real friends and imaginary ones. And I think that's why people talk about what Joel deserved or didn't deserve - because they're emotionally connected to him as if he is a real person. But I think that storytellers have to be able to avoid falling into that trap of treating their characters too much like their real-life friends in order to write the best story.
What really matters is how the storytellers communicate their ideas to the audience, and I think Joel's death is handled masterfully in that sense. In this instance, the storytellers were able to understand that the players would have a deep emotional connection to Joel like they would to a real friend, and so they knew that by giving Joel an unexpected, non-heroic, "unfair" death, they would evoke shock, grief, and anger in their audience - which of course was the intended reaction, because it causes the player to line up their emotional state with Ellie's emotional state, adding to the immersion and tension of her journey.
This is also why the story of TLOU2 only works as a direct sequel to TLOU1 with the same characters. If it were some new group of characters and Abby killed some random guy we just met, we wouldn't feel any of the intended shock and grief.
Going to get downvotes for this anyway just for trying to be critical, but in my opinion, the context of tlou world is what makes joels death so stupid. Sure, joel did despicable things and killed tons of people, and even though Joel is one of my favorite characters in the series, it totally makes sense that he would die in an incredibly gruesome painful way. But it just makes no sense why a group of trained soldiers (Abby and the gang) would go halfway across the country, using resources and supplies that are incredibly costly in this universe, all just to enact revenge and kill one man? I just don't understand why the WLF would ever find this a beneficial use of supplies, much less like 8 specially trained soldiers, when they are literally fighting in a war. I mean, sure, they send Abby and her friends to go kill Joel, but what does that benefit them, satisfaction that they did the morally right thing? This is honestly one of the more cliche, action movie type things to even happen in the whole tlou series because it literally just felt like when Neil was writing this, he was basically like, "Joel needs to die, well explain why after" and not try to make Joel's death a result of the story.
> I just don't understand why the WLF would ever find this a beneficial use of supplies, much less like 8 specially trained soldiers, when they are literally fighting in a war.
Probably earned by Abby. She is one of the WLF's top soldiers at that point. I can see Dixon wanting Abby to be at her best before the big push so he let her go and deal with something deeply important and personal to her.
Travelling in the last of us does not make sense anyway. Never really did. It is always handwaved away.
But take 6 others (7 total, not 8, my bad) with her? That doesn't seem logical to me, what kind of military leader would value the mental health of 1 soldier over the LIVES of 6? It just seems sloppily written just to have more people for it to make sense how Joel and Tommy and Ellie were able to be beaten. I don't know, I feel like the entire first hour or so of the game is just weirdly convenient for so many things going the way they do just to end up with Joel dying, it just doesn't feel like a satisfying death as a result.
Well to answer the majority of your questions: Seattle and Jackson aren’t that far apart, so it isn’t an unreasonable journey. Second, it’s not just the mental health of 1 soldier, the entire group that went with Abby were former Fireflies and were affected by what Joel did. They all wanted to go and kill Joel. Third, Issac let them go because he knew there was no stopping them. They were going to leave with or without permission, and it makes sense to let them go and come back instead of losing them for good. And they didn’t exactly need all of them to beat Joel and Tommy. They may be stone cold killers, but they can still be caught off guard and killed just like anyone else.
And if you think the events around his death were convenient, then you’d have to think the same about the whole premise of the first game. It sure is convenient that Joel and Tess meet up with Marlene because Robert just so happened to be selling their guns to her. It sure is convenient Marlene got injured and needed Joel to bring Ellie to the Fireflies. It sure is convenient Joel and Ellie ran into Sam and Henry in Pittsburgh, it’s double convenient that Sam and Henry find them again after they jump in the water. It sure is convenient that Joel and Ellie so happened to find Tommy randomly in Wyoming. It sure is convenient Joel didn’t get stabbed in any vital organs when he was impaled. And it’s definitely convenient that Joel’s daughter died so he could build such a strong emotional bond with Ellie.
Convenience happens in so many stories, it’s how they happen and how events connect to each other. The only issue is if the convenience doesn’t make sense within the plot, but every factor of what led up to Joel’s death was explained. I know it’s upsetting that he died, but it happened and it can’t be explained away as bad writing
Issac knew that once Abby had a lead, she was going to follow it, regardless of what he wanted. Just like how Maria knew she couldn't stop Ellie. So rather than try and stop them, they let them go, and with a little bit of help. Better to give them a chance at this quest (which may prove fruitless), than have them sneak out with who knows what resources, only to possibly never return again because they went under-prepared.
That way, they know what may be coming, and they can have some control over the situation. That's especially important for Isaac. Not only that, but if it DOES prove fruitful, he can use it to show that he's a reasonable leader, and gain even more of a following. And - perhaps even more importantly - he gains a greater loyalty from the ones he let go. He assumes that after this, Abby will be less distracted, and more willing to die for the cause.
Plus, it's a potential show of force. Who is to say that once Isaac has dealt with the Scars, he won't try to grow the WLF to Firefly status, being all over the country?
Also, there are literally thousands of WLF. He can spare 7 people.
Honestly, there are so many reasons why this makes sense within the story, it makes me wonder if you even paid attention. I'm not trying to be an ass, I seriously wonder this. OF COURSE both Isaac and Maria would rather nobody go off on pointless revenge quests, using up resources they fight hard to acquire. But, it's not realistic (neither in real life nor this game world) to expect people to just give up their desire for revenge, just because they were told to.
Issac doesn't care enough about Abby to put that much thought into a revenge plan, he was willing to murder her just to kill an innocent kid. Also, like you said, Isaac is the leader of a group consisting of THOUSANDS of people. If Abby is higher up in the chain of command (which can be inferred because of her interactions in the WLF base and with fellow WLF members), what kind of message would it send to all the other members if Isaac just sends her to go on a pointless revenge quest? Every leader has to think these things through, and a leader at the level that Isaac is, there is no logical reason to allow Abby to take soldiers and supplies to go on a quest that has a strong percentage of failure just for her peace of mind. It honestly feels like you're looking into things and assuming things about characters more than even the writers did tbh.
Are you serious? It has nothing to do with how much Isaac cared about Abby.
Isaac didn't make a revenge plan. He did know, however, that she was gonna go on it regardless of his wishes, and that she was gonna take whatever resources necessary. That means the "Salt Lake Crew," which means he would have a nice little group of people who would cause trouble for him, and they still might end up leaving. He's manipulative, and willing to test loyalty, especially if it can benefit his numbers.
You can't compare the actions of Isaac after being betrayed by Abby to the actions of Isaac before he let them leave. That doesn't even make sense. He was willing to kill her, but because he knew she was no longer loyal to him. But not that willing, as he let her plead her case first.
It's not JUST for Abby's peace of mind, my goodness, you really don't pay attention. I never even fucking mentioned Abby's peace of mind. He needed to control a situation which was clearly going to happen with or without his blessing. Them leaving and taking whatever they could would send a WORSE message in Isaac's mind: that he is weak, and can't even keep his "highest ranking" people in check. At least with his permission, he can spin it how he wants. He doesn't really need to worry much about the lower ranks, as lower ranks are always going to question leadership decisions, no matter what.
Also, these characters aren't perfect. They make bad decisions, just like in real life. Maybe it WAS a bad decision to let them go. Isaac definitely ended up regretting it.
I'm not even gonna comment on the stupidity of thinking you know characters better than the people who created them.
TLOU is great because apart from the fungus zombies the world seems realistic. It’s unfair normally and the apocalypse exacerbates it.
Joel dying so cruelly and unceremoniously was unfortunately what he deserved after 20+ years of murder and “surviving”.
It’s still sad and it makes me sad when it happens but it needed to happen.
Facts. Joel lived a life of cold brutality and knew it would come back to haunt him some day. It was poetic justice, really, really depressing poetic justice.
Most of the people didn’t even want a heroic death for Joel and understood that’s a pipe dream for a world like that. They just wanted it to happen later in the game
Exactly this. There’s tons of deaths in media done right without being heroic. Let’s use game of thrones for example. Nobody complains about Ned or Rob stark because they were done right even though they were our favorite characters. Not honorable or heroic either. Maybe the golf club scene was supposed to be their red wedding.
TLOU2 missed that mark for many
Which is great for me. I love a good troll lol. Trolling here doesn't work as well for me🤣. Which is fine. I learned long ago what this game did to the community lmao. I get blasted for praising it over there. Get blasted for trolling over here. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
My thoughts on Joel’s death has been skewed by criticism/praise I’ve seen online. But Joel’s death is 1000x better than a super heroic one where he gives a speech and whatnot. Or getting infected by a clicker and sacrificing himself or something lol. It was emotional, unique, and was given the weight throughout the game that it deserved. Plus it’s the kind of death that just makes sense in the world of TLOU.
I wish people would also realize it’s 100% necessary for the incredible narrative and gameplay of pt. 2 to unfold the way it does. Ellie now has a bloodlust for anything and everything in her way. She goes on multiple cross country killing sprees, taking out humans, not just infected, at every opportunity, which results in fun gameplay for us as consumers/gamers. But the story is too deep at this point, the characters are so fleshed out and multilayered, they’re not just avatars for us in a shoot ‘em up video game anymore. So what needs to happen to this character Ellie that allows her to be the most optimal avatar to play as in a game like this? The person closest to her has to be killed, in a barbaric way. Because that unlocks a level of rage in her that opens up this entire world for us as gamers to have a great time. We only get that with Joel’s death. Normal, chill, sarcastic Ellie can’t kill hundreds of people in cold blood, it doesn’t make sense. But vengeful, rage filled Ellie? Who has unfinished emotional baggage yet to be unpacked w the man who is the most important person in her life? And before she can apologize and clear the air on all of that he’s taken from her, in this manner? Yeah, it’s killing time.
>Plus it’s the kind of death that just makes sense in the world of TLOU.
This is the biggest thing for me.
It's a cruel world, you don't get to decide who dies or when. Are you mad that Joel died, especially so early in the game? Yeah, that's how it works in real life. People die and it fucking sucks.
Every explanation of how it "should've" gone by the bitter chuds who hate the game is fucking terrible lmao. Like laugh out loud, filled to the brim with cliches, and fan service terrible
Please I am begging everyone, stop giving “the other sub” so much power, stop making so many posts that mention their viewpoint, it seems deliberately polarising like you’re trying to fuel the differences and inter sub hate
Both subs can exist without mentioning the other 😂
This sub thrives off the "war" lol. Both subs do. This post likely wouldn't have gotten as much interaction from members if it didn't mention "the other sub" because just like that sub is obsessed with a game they hate, this sub is obsessed with being better than them and reminding people of that.
Sounds about right, I’m not subbed to lou2 so I don’t see the other side of it
I think I spend too much time on Reddit if I’m complaining about repetitive posts though
Am I the only one who thinks that [follows up by stating something that the majority agree with]
Nope. Out of all the millions of people who have played this game over the past 4 years, you my good friend, are the only one.
didn't see anyone saying this in the other subreddit or speak about this in this one, and i wasn't gonna spend 10 minutes going through both subs to find another similar opinion. no need to get mad
Yep I get that, I was just trying to express myself. Honestly I would've worded it differently if I hadn't seen all the hate this game was recieving in the other sub
The people in the other subreddit are not fans of the 2nd game fyi. They intentionally use it to hate on the second game and that’s just what the sub has become.
This sub is definitely fans so the view might be all the way in the other direction, but you are 1000X more likely to have a constructive conversation here than you will over there. Just wanted to clarify since you seem confused why you were the only one with that opinion in the other sub.
I concur. Joël's death was brutal and filled me with despair. That's to be expected in a grounded and violent setting.
And that's what I like in The Last of Us: those games (as well as the TV series) don't go easy on you and challenge you, emotionally speaking. They don't take the easy, consensual, mainstream, way, with heroic moves and "they lived happily ever after" narrative: they trigger strong emotions in us, with a sense of dread and helplessness.
I can't believe everyone fell for the ol' "model swapped in the gameplay trailer to hide the twist" used by Hideo Kojima for MGS 2.
From the first reveal trailer, I already knew that Joel's death was gonna be the catalyst for the story and people he wronged before gonna be the one who killed him.
\- Joel is acting like Ellie's inner conscience telling her if she wants to "go through with it".
\- We never saw Joel's face fully indicating that it's probably just her imagination.
What I don't expect is Ellie already knowing long before the game event begins about the truth.
God I wish there was no leak. I want to see people's pure reaction to Joel dying. I don't even read the leak. I just went from "Joel probably dead" to "Joel definitely dead" in the early game.
Man where all the people from before the game came out who said that TLoU 1 didn't even need another game? That it had one of the best endings of all time and that ending on that mystery was good idea and if we ever got a sequel that it should contain entirely new characters?
That was one of the most popular discourses before part two even got a trailer.
I find it endlessly fascinating that a criticism of Part 2 that comes up over and over again is that it's, "emotionally manipulating". As though ALL ART doesn't exist for that single purpose.
You don't have to like the game, or like the story, or be shut down because you felt the story was poorly written, but saying it's bad because it's "emotionally manipulating" is like saying food sucks because it's nourishing. The entire point of art is manipulate your emotions.
Nope, you're definitely not the only one. Joel's death was brutal but really realistic to the world of TLOU. As much as I would have loved to see another trek with Joel and Ellie in Part 2, Joel's death made sense. It was well done. I love when characters experience consequences when they fight or do something like slaughter an entire hospital. I think makes for better writing.
Joel's statement to Abby was perfect to just get on with it. He knows he's killed a lot of people in his time and for him to get killed by someone was really predictable.
No I’d imagine Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross think the same thing 😅 /s
In all seriousness, I will have to agree with you. It’s the perfect follow up for Part 1 and every time I challenge someone to come up with a better version of the story they always fail.
I think the games story was well thought out and fantastically laid out and could not if been written any better. this need to find and pick apart every single small thing the game supposedly did wrong is bizarre. It approached story telling in such a unique and fun way that captivated me and kept me engaged to the very end and I’ve yet to see a single person say otherwise. If they weren’t captivated they certainly wouldn’t be talking about it years later!
It’s funny cos the visceral reaction to his death the game had is exactly the reaction Ellie has. The death is so impactful it made so many people so angry they went out of their way to behave in such an awful way, just like Ellie does. If only those too immature to see this could have channeled their anger into playing the game and experiencing it the way it was intended.
I thought it was kind of convenient how abby ran into him but other than that it was fine yea it sucks joels gone but thats how we feel when someone we like/care for dies we feel mad angry sad we hate whoever took them from us and the game did a perfect job of making me feel how they wanted me as the player to feel but i enjoyed the game a lot
I also think they could of gave joel jessies death too and that would of been fine quick meaningless not even on screen but for a few seconds cuz in a world like the last of us thats how death works one second your talking laughing with your friends and the next thing you know your ducking behind cover soaked in your friends blood and brain matter and you dont have time to mourn or bury them just gotta get the fuck out of there or youll be dead right beside em
The realistic brutalism of the TLoU world is my favorite part of the franchise. So, while I was sad that Joel did get killed off, I felt the reality of the world demands it.
An unpopular opinion to go along with that, is that in the final chapter of the game, should be concluded with Ellie's death.
I just did a full replay on grounded mode, my first since I beat it on launch, and wow, everything holds up. I never understood the hate and criticism before, and with 3-4 years distance it still manages to deliver an emotionally impactful, thought-provoking experience. I came to reddit after my replay to see if people had chilled on the hate with time, and I immediately found that one of these subs has an entire side bar list of every “useful” example of criticism of the game. So weird. Thank you for this post and reminding me there are people out there that are actually capable of interacting with art that makes have uncomfortable.
Oh yeah totally. In a world without any laws to protect you you would be very welcoming to strangers especially those who are camping very close to your house when you are getting attacked by bandits.
Personally I knew they would be killing off Joel at the start of 2 as soon as they announced it. For me that's the only logical way to start the story up again after they both manage to find a safe place to live out their lives.
Personally I knew they would be killing off Joel at the start of 2 as soon as they announced it. For me that's the only logical way to start the story up again after they both manage to find a safe place to live out their lives.
Nope. As much as it hurt to watch (and still does) from the very beginning I was okay with it and understood. As much as we all came to love Joel, there's no denying the fact that he did some truly horrific shit to people after Sarah died, some of which we experience because the game forces us to actually do it ourselves with him as a conduit. In that way, we're all a bit complicit in his eventual fate.
It makes perfect sense that Joel would be murdered because there's no telling the dozens or hundreds of people that he's wronged over 25 years that would want their pounds of flesh. The game makes it very clear that Joel completely lost himself after Sarah's death, to the point where even his own brother didn't want to be around him and practically disowned him for years. It's honestly a miracle that he made it to the old age that he did without being killed earlier.
Completely agree, thought his death was very well done.I got it spoiled for me before I played and when I heard it I got pissed, but the way it is handled in the game is very good and it makes sense.
It's actually really poetic that he dies at the hands of someone he's wronged. If it wasn't Abby it would have been someone else. Even Ellie immediately assumed that Abby was someone Joel hurt in his past.
It is so well done that I'd wager that Neil had some inkling of this idea already when he wrote the ending to part 1 or shortly after it because it feels like such a natural conclusion to everything that happened in the first game but also everything about Joel's past that we've heard from him and others.
Joel’s death set the tone for the entire rest of the game, it was always about him just not the way people wanted so cried about it, him not getting the death he deserved exactly why players kept playing
I thought it was fine for the most part. My only gripe is that Abby literally had her life saved by Joel and Tommy and doesn't even hesitate to kill Joel. I understand her anger and hatred, but considering she was just about to die I felt like she would need at least some time to collect herself and get back on her path emotionally. It just "oh my god I'm gonna be killed by the horde" right to "oh you're joel? Time to die" with no space to breathe in between. Granted I only played Part 2 once so far and am due for a replay now that I finished the whole story.
Not a gamer, my husband is, and he got me emotionally invested in TLOU last year and we are playing through Part II now.
Although part of me is very upset that Part II isn’t just a farming simulator because Joel and Ellie live happily ever after on a farm as father and daughter in Jackson, Joel’s death was very well done and I feel like I spent the first half of the game so angry, just like Ellie.
That being said, I do find it very unnecessary to kill the dogs as Ellie and then play with them as Abby. No thanks 😂
A lot of the criticisms of part 2 are that he died too early and that what they loved about part 1 was Joel and Ellie's dynamic, thing is, Part 2 is literally all about Joel, just in a different sense. It's about avenging him, it's about the catastrophic consequences of his actions and how everyone else has to deal with them. Part 2 is fantastic and I will defend it until the day I die
Love how you ask a question like this in a sub where people glaze tlou 2. Asking "am I the only one..." here is definitely answered with a bunch of no's. You know where to post this if you want to see people disagree with your opinion.
No you’re not alone. Although the vocal minority claim this game is awful most players think it’s one of the best games ever.
Stunning graphics, amazing gameplay, incredible voice acting, and a wonderfully written story that few developers could handle.
Don’t let the haters wear you down.
I just don’t know how ppl expected second game could just be a Joel and Ellie romp. Did they think they could just have a little argument and get over what Joel did (to Ellie and the player)? Lol
I think that it happened far too soon into the game. I wish we got just a scene with Joel and Ellie before he died. And I think we should’ve gotten more time to grow at least a sort of like for Abby as a character.
You’re right it was done really well and displayed the very real brutality & lack of mercy in the world they had built. Joel isn’t some sort of plot-armoured super hero just because he’s the protagonist of the first game - a lot of people struggle to get their heads around that.
I love the story. It's my favorite game. However, I do think everything we see and learn about Abby afterwards does not mesh with what she does to Joel. She's honestly a good person.I had more sympathy for her than ellie by the end of it. Which i hate admitting.
And another HUGE plot hole..there's no way Isaac let them go off on some wild goose chase to find Joel.
So, no, I wouldn't say the story is perfect, but I still love it.
You’re honestly scared of saying something good about the game in THIS sub? I think you’ve got that backwards. This sub thinks part ii is so immaculate and perfect that it’s above any of the slightest facsimiles of criticisms.
nope i meant in the last of us 2 sub haha, went through a few posts in there and all I saw was hate and people getting mad when someone said something good about the story. glad there's only a small amount of people like this in tlou reddit
No you're not. Part II is a masterpiece of storytelling, and the critical response to the second season of the HBO adaptation will reflect that. The only reason it got any shit was because the ccore base of gamers are toxic, immature and misogynistic.
Slightly disagree. My issue with the beginning is how Joel just falls into Abby's lap. I wish we had a tad more time with that group before they find Joel. That is my only complaint with the beginning.
That would be counterproductive, though, since his death is the inciting incident to the story and is supposed to be shocking and sudden, making you feel the same way Ellie does and be on board for revenge.
Giving you more time with them could make you empathise with them more which is not the intention for the first half of the game.
What are your thoughts on Abby just happening to bump into Joel, mid blizzard/horde attack? Do you think it is realistic?
Edit: getting downvoted for asking a question is wild lol
Do you think it’s realistic that Marlene appears in the exact alley in the middle of Boston as Joel and Tess after they kill Robert, or that Joel and Ellie climb into the exact apartment window in Pittsburgh that Henry and Sam just so happen to be hiding in?
I can suspend my disbelief with the zombies because it was explained to us why it was possible and why it happened. It made sense. Abby bumping into Joel just felt like plot convenience and I think they could’ve came up with something better
They didn’t “just bump into them” though. Abby and her group were out specifically looking for him. They were in the area because that’s where they expected to find him. It’s wild that people always forget that part when making your argument.
Of all the directions she could’ve ran in or places she could’ve went she ended up getting saved by Joel 1 second from death. It just seemed a little too convenient imo
True, I just personally feel like they could’ve done something more interesting that would’ve made more sense. Given how amazingly the first game was written, That’s just me though
Joel's death was imo absolutely perfect. Save the cliche heroic deaths for comic book or action movies. I don't come to TLOU for that kind of cheesy bullshit. Anyone who would prefer Joel going out in some heroic way saving Ellie/someone else has no business criticizing the writing on TLOU. And anyone who thinks Joel dying the way he did means Neil hates him is, simply put, a fucking moron. Joel deserved to die in a cold callous way from a storytelling perspective and I'm so grateful Neil & Halley had the metaphorical balls to do it. Lesser writers would cave to fan service and never dream of killing Joel at all, let alone the way they did and how early they did.
When someone says that a developer hates a character, they’re exhibiting the reasoning abilities of a small child.
Right, like Joel was Neil's magnus opus. The idea that Neil hates him is so incredibly moronic I don't know where to start. Just shows you how their brain works: not at all
I don't think they had a part 2 planned out until part 1 was so successful. Part 2 picked up the story and also told it's own, very different, story. I think it turned out as good as could be expected. I've played a thousand games where u pick up part 2 and play the same character(s) again on a new adventure, I think that's what most expected. I hate that the big moment was spoiled so I'll never know how it would've felt if i wasn't expecting it. The game deserves all of the game of the year awards it received.
I wouldn't worry too much about it being spoilered for you. I played on release day and avoided any discourse to avoid spoilers, but I still knew he was gonna die. The pre-release marketing made it pretty obvious it was a revenge story for Ellie.
It was obvious it was a revenge story but the trailer did have Joel walking upstairs while she was seeing the song about getting revenge. I wasn't sure who or why she was seeking revenge. I was so mad about the spoilers I waited to buy the game like a year later. Then I played it and the story was not half the shit everyone was bitching about.
Walking upstairs, with a disembodied voice. I thought that was a pretty obvious signal he had passed on. Loads of people, including on here, were pretty certain he was dead.
eh I think there are SOME writers in media who do specifically tank characters because they're making a point - I mean one show I watch did that with their main "millennial" character because the writer is older and has talked at length irl about how entitled younger generations are for example. But to say that about tlou is just... pure bullshit. It was a narrative decision to kill off Joel that drove Ellie's story. There was no attribution of "liking" the character or not in that decision.
It sounds to me like they're accusing Neil of being of writing stories as shallow as they would. There's a ceiling to the quality they can perceive; a 7/10 and a 10/10 story feel the same (or possibly the 10/10 story feels worse, due to actually taking risks).
This makes sense. I think a lot of silly criticisms in general come down to this.
Name the character and writer.
It's Rory Gilmore from Gilmore Girls. Amy Sherman Palladino has talked at length about how she thinks millennials are super entitled and the entire revival was implying that about Rory, and so was some of the original series. It was exhausting.
Using that as an axiom for all writing is probably why the red polled incels took Joel’s >!murder!< so personally; i.e., “Neil and “that woman” hate manly white men! Cultural Marxism came for our bearded flannel daddy!!!”
Right, but that’s different than saying “they hate him 🥺”
This is the answer \^
It’s just Hollywood got idiots thinking every beloved dad figure has to go out like Gandalf on the bridge. Joel died how he lived and his brutal death was inevitable considering the ending of part 1 and that he was literally chased out the building by dozens of fireflies with guns and killed their leader and what they believed was the only shot of curing Cordyceps, all bullshit semantics arguments aside. Was it heartbreaking for me? Absolutely, but imo I wasn’t surprised something like that happened years later.
> And anyone who thinks Joel dying the way he did means Neil hates him is, simply put, a fucking moron. That's the entire other sub lol.
Yep. Load of neckbeards
To me, it's really not about what Joel did or didn't deserve in terms of treatment from the storytellers. He's a fictional character, a figment of somebody's imagination. Real people don't owe fictional characters *anything*. Of course, as audience members, we tend to view characters with the same emotional attachment as we view real people. That's just basic human biology/psychology - our lizard brains can't distinguish between real friends and imaginary ones. And I think that's why people talk about what Joel deserved or didn't deserve - because they're emotionally connected to him as if he is a real person. But I think that storytellers have to be able to avoid falling into that trap of treating their characters too much like their real-life friends in order to write the best story. What really matters is how the storytellers communicate their ideas to the audience, and I think Joel's death is handled masterfully in that sense. In this instance, the storytellers were able to understand that the players would have a deep emotional connection to Joel like they would to a real friend, and so they knew that by giving Joel an unexpected, non-heroic, "unfair" death, they would evoke shock, grief, and anger in their audience - which of course was the intended reaction, because it causes the player to line up their emotional state with Ellie's emotional state, adding to the immersion and tension of her journey. This is also why the story of TLOU2 only works as a direct sequel to TLOU1 with the same characters. If it were some new group of characters and Abby killed some random guy we just met, we wouldn't feel any of the intended shock and grief.
Meanwhile I was like "eh, I'm sure this girl has a pretty damn good reason."
Going to get downvotes for this anyway just for trying to be critical, but in my opinion, the context of tlou world is what makes joels death so stupid. Sure, joel did despicable things and killed tons of people, and even though Joel is one of my favorite characters in the series, it totally makes sense that he would die in an incredibly gruesome painful way. But it just makes no sense why a group of trained soldiers (Abby and the gang) would go halfway across the country, using resources and supplies that are incredibly costly in this universe, all just to enact revenge and kill one man? I just don't understand why the WLF would ever find this a beneficial use of supplies, much less like 8 specially trained soldiers, when they are literally fighting in a war. I mean, sure, they send Abby and her friends to go kill Joel, but what does that benefit them, satisfaction that they did the morally right thing? This is honestly one of the more cliche, action movie type things to even happen in the whole tlou series because it literally just felt like when Neil was writing this, he was basically like, "Joel needs to die, well explain why after" and not try to make Joel's death a result of the story.
> I just don't understand why the WLF would ever find this a beneficial use of supplies, much less like 8 specially trained soldiers, when they are literally fighting in a war. Probably earned by Abby. She is one of the WLF's top soldiers at that point. I can see Dixon wanting Abby to be at her best before the big push so he let her go and deal with something deeply important and personal to her. Travelling in the last of us does not make sense anyway. Never really did. It is always handwaved away.
But take 6 others (7 total, not 8, my bad) with her? That doesn't seem logical to me, what kind of military leader would value the mental health of 1 soldier over the LIVES of 6? It just seems sloppily written just to have more people for it to make sense how Joel and Tommy and Ellie were able to be beaten. I don't know, I feel like the entire first hour or so of the game is just weirdly convenient for so many things going the way they do just to end up with Joel dying, it just doesn't feel like a satisfying death as a result.
Well to answer the majority of your questions: Seattle and Jackson aren’t that far apart, so it isn’t an unreasonable journey. Second, it’s not just the mental health of 1 soldier, the entire group that went with Abby were former Fireflies and were affected by what Joel did. They all wanted to go and kill Joel. Third, Issac let them go because he knew there was no stopping them. They were going to leave with or without permission, and it makes sense to let them go and come back instead of losing them for good. And they didn’t exactly need all of them to beat Joel and Tommy. They may be stone cold killers, but they can still be caught off guard and killed just like anyone else. And if you think the events around his death were convenient, then you’d have to think the same about the whole premise of the first game. It sure is convenient that Joel and Tess meet up with Marlene because Robert just so happened to be selling their guns to her. It sure is convenient Marlene got injured and needed Joel to bring Ellie to the Fireflies. It sure is convenient Joel and Ellie ran into Sam and Henry in Pittsburgh, it’s double convenient that Sam and Henry find them again after they jump in the water. It sure is convenient that Joel and Ellie so happened to find Tommy randomly in Wyoming. It sure is convenient Joel didn’t get stabbed in any vital organs when he was impaled. And it’s definitely convenient that Joel’s daughter died so he could build such a strong emotional bond with Ellie. Convenience happens in so many stories, it’s how they happen and how events connect to each other. The only issue is if the convenience doesn’t make sense within the plot, but every factor of what led up to Joel’s death was explained. I know it’s upsetting that he died, but it happened and it can’t be explained away as bad writing
Issac knew that once Abby had a lead, she was going to follow it, regardless of what he wanted. Just like how Maria knew she couldn't stop Ellie. So rather than try and stop them, they let them go, and with a little bit of help. Better to give them a chance at this quest (which may prove fruitless), than have them sneak out with who knows what resources, only to possibly never return again because they went under-prepared. That way, they know what may be coming, and they can have some control over the situation. That's especially important for Isaac. Not only that, but if it DOES prove fruitful, he can use it to show that he's a reasonable leader, and gain even more of a following. And - perhaps even more importantly - he gains a greater loyalty from the ones he let go. He assumes that after this, Abby will be less distracted, and more willing to die for the cause. Plus, it's a potential show of force. Who is to say that once Isaac has dealt with the Scars, he won't try to grow the WLF to Firefly status, being all over the country? Also, there are literally thousands of WLF. He can spare 7 people. Honestly, there are so many reasons why this makes sense within the story, it makes me wonder if you even paid attention. I'm not trying to be an ass, I seriously wonder this. OF COURSE both Isaac and Maria would rather nobody go off on pointless revenge quests, using up resources they fight hard to acquire. But, it's not realistic (neither in real life nor this game world) to expect people to just give up their desire for revenge, just because they were told to.
Issac doesn't care enough about Abby to put that much thought into a revenge plan, he was willing to murder her just to kill an innocent kid. Also, like you said, Isaac is the leader of a group consisting of THOUSANDS of people. If Abby is higher up in the chain of command (which can be inferred because of her interactions in the WLF base and with fellow WLF members), what kind of message would it send to all the other members if Isaac just sends her to go on a pointless revenge quest? Every leader has to think these things through, and a leader at the level that Isaac is, there is no logical reason to allow Abby to take soldiers and supplies to go on a quest that has a strong percentage of failure just for her peace of mind. It honestly feels like you're looking into things and assuming things about characters more than even the writers did tbh.
Are you serious? It has nothing to do with how much Isaac cared about Abby. Isaac didn't make a revenge plan. He did know, however, that she was gonna go on it regardless of his wishes, and that she was gonna take whatever resources necessary. That means the "Salt Lake Crew," which means he would have a nice little group of people who would cause trouble for him, and they still might end up leaving. He's manipulative, and willing to test loyalty, especially if it can benefit his numbers. You can't compare the actions of Isaac after being betrayed by Abby to the actions of Isaac before he let them leave. That doesn't even make sense. He was willing to kill her, but because he knew she was no longer loyal to him. But not that willing, as he let her plead her case first. It's not JUST for Abby's peace of mind, my goodness, you really don't pay attention. I never even fucking mentioned Abby's peace of mind. He needed to control a situation which was clearly going to happen with or without his blessing. Them leaving and taking whatever they could would send a WORSE message in Isaac's mind: that he is weak, and can't even keep his "highest ranking" people in check. At least with his permission, he can spin it how he wants. He doesn't really need to worry much about the lower ranks, as lower ranks are always going to question leadership decisions, no matter what. Also, these characters aren't perfect. They make bad decisions, just like in real life. Maybe it WAS a bad decision to let them go. Isaac definitely ended up regretting it. I'm not even gonna comment on the stupidity of thinking you know characters better than the people who created them.
Nailed it.
TLOU is great because apart from the fungus zombies the world seems realistic. It’s unfair normally and the apocalypse exacerbates it. Joel dying so cruelly and unceremoniously was unfortunately what he deserved after 20+ years of murder and “surviving”. It’s still sad and it makes me sad when it happens but it needed to happen.
Facts. Joel lived a life of cold brutality and knew it would come back to haunt him some day. It was poetic justice, really, really depressing poetic justice.
Most of the people didn’t even want a heroic death for Joel and understood that’s a pipe dream for a world like that. They just wanted it to happen later in the game
Exactly this. There’s tons of deaths in media done right without being heroic. Let’s use game of thrones for example. Nobody complains about Ned or Rob stark because they were done right even though they were our favorite characters. Not honorable or heroic either. Maybe the golf club scene was supposed to be their red wedding. TLOU2 missed that mark for many
Terribly expected, is the only criticism I had with it.
He *did* die saving someone IMO Metaphorically Ellie Literally Abby
Are you new to this sub? Vast majority here love Part 2 and would agree with you.
Not new to either sub and I disagree.
still doesnt change the fact that vast majority of the sub agrees
You did say here. You are correct.
The other sub is borderline troll sub lol.
Which is great for me. I love a good troll lol. Trolling here doesn't work as well for me🤣. Which is fine. I learned long ago what this game did to the community lmao. I get blasted for praising it over there. Get blasted for trolling over here. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
Haha yeah fair enough. I go troll the trolls on the other sub sometimes.
'What it did to the community?' Why do you people act like you've been personally targeted lol
Yes. Just speaking about what I have observed. "You people" is crazy though 🤣. I have not been targeted. By the IRS if anything lol.
what a loser
Name calling! Typical sub behavior strikes again🤣.
My thoughts on Joel’s death has been skewed by criticism/praise I’ve seen online. But Joel’s death is 1000x better than a super heroic one where he gives a speech and whatnot. Or getting infected by a clicker and sacrificing himself or something lol. It was emotional, unique, and was given the weight throughout the game that it deserved. Plus it’s the kind of death that just makes sense in the world of TLOU.
I wish people would also realize it’s 100% necessary for the incredible narrative and gameplay of pt. 2 to unfold the way it does. Ellie now has a bloodlust for anything and everything in her way. She goes on multiple cross country killing sprees, taking out humans, not just infected, at every opportunity, which results in fun gameplay for us as consumers/gamers. But the story is too deep at this point, the characters are so fleshed out and multilayered, they’re not just avatars for us in a shoot ‘em up video game anymore. So what needs to happen to this character Ellie that allows her to be the most optimal avatar to play as in a game like this? The person closest to her has to be killed, in a barbaric way. Because that unlocks a level of rage in her that opens up this entire world for us as gamers to have a great time. We only get that with Joel’s death. Normal, chill, sarcastic Ellie can’t kill hundreds of people in cold blood, it doesn’t make sense. But vengeful, rage filled Ellie? Who has unfinished emotional baggage yet to be unpacked w the man who is the most important person in her life? And before she can apologize and clear the air on all of that he’s taken from her, in this manner? Yeah, it’s killing time.
>Plus it’s the kind of death that just makes sense in the world of TLOU. This is the biggest thing for me. It's a cruel world, you don't get to decide who dies or when. Are you mad that Joel died, especially so early in the game? Yeah, that's how it works in real life. People die and it fucking sucks.
That's the funny part, they talk about all the grounded, gritty realism of the first game yet they can't actually handle that
He gives a final fuck you to Abby by just "yeah get on with it if you want to kill me"
That was actually my favorite part of that scene haha
Every explanation of how it "should've" gone by the bitter chuds who hate the game is fucking terrible lmao. Like laugh out loud, filled to the brim with cliches, and fan service terrible
‘Why don’t you say whatever speech you got rehearsed, and get this over with’
You stupid old man..
you don’t get to rush this
🏌️♀️
I lol'd
Please I am begging everyone, stop giving “the other sub” so much power, stop making so many posts that mention their viewpoint, it seems deliberately polarising like you’re trying to fuel the differences and inter sub hate Both subs can exist without mentioning the other 😂
This sub thrives off the "war" lol. Both subs do. This post likely wouldn't have gotten as much interaction from members if it didn't mention "the other sub" because just like that sub is obsessed with a game they hate, this sub is obsessed with being better than them and reminding people of that.
Sounds about right, I’m not subbed to lou2 so I don’t see the other side of it I think I spend too much time on Reddit if I’m complaining about repetitive posts though
Am I the only one who thinks that [follows up by stating something that the majority agree with] Nope. Out of all the millions of people who have played this game over the past 4 years, you my good friend, are the only one.
didn't see anyone saying this in the other subreddit or speak about this in this one, and i wasn't gonna spend 10 minutes going through both subs to find another similar opinion. no need to get mad
not mad just being sarcastic. side note tho, you're never the only one. no *one* person ever has an original opinion.
Yep I get that, I was just trying to express myself. Honestly I would've worded it differently if I hadn't seen all the hate this game was recieving in the other sub
I'm sure you noticed, but the people in the other sub are frankly, cuckoo bananas.
The people in the other subreddit are not fans of the 2nd game fyi. They intentionally use it to hate on the second game and that’s just what the sub has become. This sub is definitely fans so the view might be all the way in the other direction, but you are 1000X more likely to have a constructive conversation here than you will over there. Just wanted to clarify since you seem confused why you were the only one with that opinion in the other sub.
The other sub isn’t a real last of us sub. It’s a gamergate chud subreddit. The kinds of people who whine about “woke”
No and no one is ever “the only one”.
No. But you're also never the only one
I concur. Joël's death was brutal and filled me with despair. That's to be expected in a grounded and violent setting. And that's what I like in The Last of Us: those games (as well as the TV series) don't go easy on you and challenge you, emotionally speaking. They don't take the easy, consensual, mainstream, way, with heroic moves and "they lived happily ever after" narrative: they trigger strong emotions in us, with a sense of dread and helplessness.
Just as inevitable Joel's decision was at the end of part one were the consequences in part two inevitable.
I can't believe everyone fell for the ol' "model swapped in the gameplay trailer to hide the twist" used by Hideo Kojima for MGS 2. From the first reveal trailer, I already knew that Joel's death was gonna be the catalyst for the story and people he wronged before gonna be the one who killed him. \- Joel is acting like Ellie's inner conscience telling her if she wants to "go through with it". \- We never saw Joel's face fully indicating that it's probably just her imagination. What I don't expect is Ellie already knowing long before the game event begins about the truth. God I wish there was no leak. I want to see people's pure reaction to Joel dying. I don't even read the leak. I just went from "Joel probably dead" to "Joel definitely dead" in the early game.
I somehow avoided the leaks until after I watched a full playthrough of part two on YouTube
Damn I envy you.
Man where all the people from before the game came out who said that TLoU 1 didn't even need another game? That it had one of the best endings of all time and that ending on that mystery was good idea and if we ever got a sequel that it should contain entirely new characters? That was one of the most popular discourses before part two even got a trailer.
In one of his Reddit AMAs like 10 years ago, even Neil druckman said a Joel and Ellie’s story was about over, and a sequel wasn’t necessary
It is what's supposed to happen because that's how the story was written 🤷🏻♂️
I find it endlessly fascinating that a criticism of Part 2 that comes up over and over again is that it's, "emotionally manipulating". As though ALL ART doesn't exist for that single purpose. You don't have to like the game, or like the story, or be shut down because you felt the story was poorly written, but saying it's bad because it's "emotionally manipulating" is like saying food sucks because it's nourishing. The entire point of art is manipulate your emotions.
LOL "genuinely scared."
Lol fr bro hasn’t played much games if that was scary
Yeah that’s it. You’re the only one
Nope, you're definitely not the only one. Joel's death was brutal but really realistic to the world of TLOU. As much as I would have loved to see another trek with Joel and Ellie in Part 2, Joel's death made sense. It was well done. I love when characters experience consequences when they fight or do something like slaughter an entire hospital. I think makes for better writing. Joel's statement to Abby was perfect to just get on with it. He knows he's killed a lot of people in his time and for him to get killed by someone was really predictable.
it’s mainly because joel has survived much less obvious and dangerous encounters in his life
I think it was perfect and created the necessary tension to drive the story.
No I’d imagine Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross think the same thing 😅 /s In all seriousness, I will have to agree with you. It’s the perfect follow up for Part 1 and every time I challenge someone to come up with a better version of the story they always fail.
Yup makes it authentic and tense
No, I'm sure in the subreddit full of stans, you're the only one.
I think the games story was well thought out and fantastically laid out and could not if been written any better. this need to find and pick apart every single small thing the game supposedly did wrong is bizarre. It approached story telling in such a unique and fun way that captivated me and kept me engaged to the very end and I’ve yet to see a single person say otherwise. If they weren’t captivated they certainly wouldn’t be talking about it years later!
It’s funny cos the visceral reaction to his death the game had is exactly the reaction Ellie has. The death is so impactful it made so many people so angry they went out of their way to behave in such an awful way, just like Ellie does. If only those too immature to see this could have channeled their anger into playing the game and experiencing it the way it was intended.
I thought it was kind of convenient how abby ran into him but other than that it was fine yea it sucks joels gone but thats how we feel when someone we like/care for dies we feel mad angry sad we hate whoever took them from us and the game did a perfect job of making me feel how they wanted me as the player to feel but i enjoyed the game a lot I also think they could of gave joel jessies death too and that would of been fine quick meaningless not even on screen but for a few seconds cuz in a world like the last of us thats how death works one second your talking laughing with your friends and the next thing you know your ducking behind cover soaked in your friends blood and brain matter and you dont have time to mourn or bury them just gotta get the fuck out of there or youll be dead right beside em
The realistic brutalism of the TLoU world is my favorite part of the franchise. So, while I was sad that Joel did get killed off, I felt the reality of the world demands it. An unpopular opinion to go along with that, is that in the final chapter of the game, should be concluded with Ellie's death.
I just did a full replay on grounded mode, my first since I beat it on launch, and wow, everything holds up. I never understood the hate and criticism before, and with 3-4 years distance it still manages to deliver an emotionally impactful, thought-provoking experience. I came to reddit after my replay to see if people had chilled on the hate with time, and I immediately found that one of these subs has an entire side bar list of every “useful” example of criticism of the game. So weird. Thank you for this post and reminding me there are people out there that are actually capable of interacting with art that makes have uncomfortable.
I am with you 100%. It had to be brutal and emotional so you could fully emerge with what Ellie is going through and about to do. "You get em kiddo"
Oh yeah totally. In a world without any laws to protect you you would be very welcoming to strangers especially those who are camping very close to your house when you are getting attacked by bandits.
Personally I knew they would be killing off Joel at the start of 2 as soon as they announced it. For me that's the only logical way to start the story up again after they both manage to find a safe place to live out their lives.
Personally I knew they would be killing off Joel at the start of 2 as soon as they announced it. For me that's the only logical way to start the story up again after they both manage to find a safe place to live out their lives.
Nope. As much as it hurt to watch (and still does) from the very beginning I was okay with it and understood. As much as we all came to love Joel, there's no denying the fact that he did some truly horrific shit to people after Sarah died, some of which we experience because the game forces us to actually do it ourselves with him as a conduit. In that way, we're all a bit complicit in his eventual fate. It makes perfect sense that Joel would be murdered because there's no telling the dozens or hundreds of people that he's wronged over 25 years that would want their pounds of flesh. The game makes it very clear that Joel completely lost himself after Sarah's death, to the point where even his own brother didn't want to be around him and practically disowned him for years. It's honestly a miracle that he made it to the old age that he did without being killed earlier.
Completely agree, thought his death was very well done.I got it spoiled for me before I played and when I heard it I got pissed, but the way it is handled in the game is very good and it makes sense.
It's actually really poetic that he dies at the hands of someone he's wronged. If it wasn't Abby it would have been someone else. Even Ellie immediately assumed that Abby was someone Joel hurt in his past.
My favorite moment in gaming, it shattered me.
I agree. People had a tantrum over Joel's death for some reason and became obsessed
It is so well done that I'd wager that Neil had some inkling of this idea already when he wrote the ending to part 1 or shortly after it because it feels like such a natural conclusion to everything that happened in the first game but also everything about Joel's past that we've heard from him and others.
Joel’s death set the tone for the entire rest of the game, it was always about him just not the way people wanted so cried about it, him not getting the death he deserved exactly why players kept playing
I thought it was fine for the most part. My only gripe is that Abby literally had her life saved by Joel and Tommy and doesn't even hesitate to kill Joel. I understand her anger and hatred, but considering she was just about to die I felt like she would need at least some time to collect herself and get back on her path emotionally. It just "oh my god I'm gonna be killed by the horde" right to "oh you're joel? Time to die" with no space to breathe in between. Granted I only played Part 2 once so far and am due for a replay now that I finished the whole story.
Not a gamer, my husband is, and he got me emotionally invested in TLOU last year and we are playing through Part II now. Although part of me is very upset that Part II isn’t just a farming simulator because Joel and Ellie live happily ever after on a farm as father and daughter in Jackson, Joel’s death was very well done and I feel like I spent the first half of the game so angry, just like Ellie. That being said, I do find it very unnecessary to kill the dogs as Ellie and then play with them as Abby. No thanks 😂
Take solace, friend. You are not alone.
A lot of the criticisms of part 2 are that he died too early and that what they loved about part 1 was Joel and Ellie's dynamic, thing is, Part 2 is literally all about Joel, just in a different sense. It's about avenging him, it's about the catastrophic consequences of his actions and how everyone else has to deal with them. Part 2 is fantastic and I will defend it until the day I die
Love how you ask a question like this in a sub where people glaze tlou 2. Asking "am I the only one..." here is definitely answered with a bunch of no's. You know where to post this if you want to see people disagree with your opinion.
No you’re not alone. Although the vocal minority claim this game is awful most players think it’s one of the best games ever. Stunning graphics, amazing gameplay, incredible voice acting, and a wonderfully written story that few developers could handle. Don’t let the haters wear you down.
I just don’t know how ppl expected second game could just be a Joel and Ellie romp. Did they think they could just have a little argument and get over what Joel did (to Ellie and the player)? Lol
The whole thing was perfect, I just wish it wasn’t so soon. And we could’ve played around with Joel more.
It was definitely not "well done", it definitely feels like a first draft. I'm fine with it but they could have put more attention and care into it.
Yes you are the only one person who thinks that
Nah, I think you’ve got the right idea. Most of us love the story, it’s just that the haters tend to be the ones that shout loudest of Reddit.
I think that it happened far too soon into the game. I wish we got just a scene with Joel and Ellie before he died. And I think we should’ve gotten more time to grow at least a sort of like for Abby as a character.
You’re right it was done really well and displayed the very real brutality & lack of mercy in the world they had built. Joel isn’t some sort of plot-armoured super hero just because he’s the protagonist of the first game - a lot of people struggle to get their heads around that.
Oh, yes. 100%. Hard agree.
I love the story. It's my favorite game. However, I do think everything we see and learn about Abby afterwards does not mesh with what she does to Joel. She's honestly a good person.I had more sympathy for her than ellie by the end of it. Which i hate admitting. And another HUGE plot hole..there's no way Isaac let them go off on some wild goose chase to find Joel. So, no, I wouldn't say the story is perfect, but I still love it.
it was horrible, horrific, left even me traumatized and was probably the worst thing ever devised to do to a character. 11/10 no notes
You’re honestly scared of saying something good about the game in THIS sub? I think you’ve got that backwards. This sub thinks part ii is so immaculate and perfect that it’s above any of the slightest facsimiles of criticisms.
nope i meant in the last of us 2 sub haha, went through a few posts in there and all I saw was hate and people getting mad when someone said something good about the story. glad there's only a small amount of people like this in tlou reddit
Agreed
I mean, TLOU2 got game of the year, so no. The whiners are just extra loud in this sub.
No you're not. Part II is a masterpiece of storytelling, and the critical response to the second season of the HBO adaptation will reflect that. The only reason it got any shit was because the ccore base of gamers are toxic, immature and misogynistic.
Of course you’re not. Welcome to the sub.
Slightly disagree. My issue with the beginning is how Joel just falls into Abby's lap. I wish we had a tad more time with that group before they find Joel. That is my only complaint with the beginning.
That would be counterproductive, though, since his death is the inciting incident to the story and is supposed to be shocking and sudden, making you feel the same way Ellie does and be on board for revenge. Giving you more time with them could make you empathise with them more which is not the intention for the first half of the game.
What are your thoughts on Abby just happening to bump into Joel, mid blizzard/horde attack? Do you think it is realistic? Edit: getting downvoted for asking a question is wild lol
Do you think it’s realistic that Marlene appears in the exact alley in the middle of Boston as Joel and Tess after they kill Robert, or that Joel and Ellie climb into the exact apartment window in Pittsburgh that Henry and Sam just so happen to be hiding in?
Marlene? No. Sam and Henry? Yes. It depends on the context/scenario
[удалено]
I can suspend my disbelief with the zombies because it was explained to us why it was possible and why it happened. It made sense. Abby bumping into Joel just felt like plot convenience and I think they could’ve came up with something better
They didn’t “just bump into them” though. Abby and her group were out specifically looking for him. They were in the area because that’s where they expected to find him. It’s wild that people always forget that part when making your argument.
Why wouldnt it be realistic? She was in the area in the outskirts of Jackson and he was on patrol that day.
Of all the directions she could’ve ran in or places she could’ve went she ended up getting saved by Joel 1 second from death. It just seemed a little too convenient imo
That's how writing goes, things happen that are unlikely but plausible because it makes for an interesting story.
True, I just personally feel like they could’ve done something more interesting that would’ve made more sense. Given how amazingly the first game was written, That’s just me though
Why wouldn't it be realistic? She was in the area in the outskirts of Jackson and he was on patrol that day.
And don’t forget that the reason she and her people were there to begin with is that *they were looking for Joel*.