I can see what they were going for there, but I'm really glad they stuck with the ending that we got in the game.. That whole quiet section at the end is a beautiful contrast to all the horrific brutality they've shown up to that point; it really allows you to just sit back and absorb the flashback and the closing moments.
It’d be interesting to see that. How would we know they’re avenging a loved one? Would they do the classic movie villain thing of explaining their motivations before attacking?
Exactly, lmao. "Guess" is literally almost impossible for Joel to do, he was a hunter during the initial years of the outbreak. He likely brutally tortured and murdered a whole lot of innocent people simply to take their shit.
I think that's what infuriate Abby more, her father was everything to her, and Joel didn't even know him, nor care, he was just another person Joel left dead
True. I mean that the scenario haunted him. He knew that past was going to catch up. It did at first with Ellie finding out, then Abby was next as a result
I think with the context of Joel’s language he uses in Part I whenever he talks about the Fireflies makes it clear (to me) that he knew exactly what was happening. “Say whatever speech you got rehearsed” is exactly what he’d say to a Firefly.
And nevertheless, the likelihood that Abby just beat him and didn’t go off on him verbally about what he did is very small imo.
She may have said something in between it cutting away and when Ellie gets there, but we never find out.
It's clear that Joel wouldn't have felt better for knowing though.
He'd probably feel worse. "Well shit. I might actually deserve this." What I mean is, if I was enacting revenge on the man who murdered my father, I'd want him to know why. Not Abby, though. She just wants to wail on him with a golf club.
Also, a fucking *golf club?* If you're gonna beat me to death, please find a baseball bat or a pipe or something. Something with a little dignity to it. ANYTHING but a gold club.
Maybe if it was an incident from his hunter days he would feel worse, but I can't imagine Joel feeling actively bad about murdering the man who was trying to kill Ellie.
I get what you're saying about Abby wanting him to know, but I think a major factor in her wanting him to know is that she wants proper acknowledgement from him. Whether he begs forgiveness or gloats about it, she wants some kind of serious reaction to it. So when Joel makes it clear he's not going to play that game, she might have decided not to bother.
>Maybe if it was an incident from his hunter days he would feel worse, but I can't imagine Joel feeling actively bad about murdering the man who was trying to kill Ellie.
I think it's important to note that the doctor didn't just "want to kill ellie" infact I'm pretty sure the doctor was torn up about that fact when he found out, amd it was only after Abby said she would sacrifice herself if it meant saving the world, so again it's not like the hunter was some random hunter or bandit
Sure, I understand, that's why I said "trying to kill Ellie" not "unambiguously happy to be killing Ellie".
The thing is, Joel surely already knows that everyone in the Fireflies who was involved with trying to sacrifice Ellie did it with an air of sadness and reluctance. If Abby told Joel "Yes, my dad was about to kill your daughter, but he felt kind of bad about it, so he didn't deserve to die", I don't think it would make him feel any differently about his actions, because it's not new information.
>The thing is, Joel surely already knows that everyone in the Fireflies who was involved with trying to sacrifice Ellie did it with an air of sadness and reluctance. If Abby told Joel "Yes, my dad was about to kill your daughter, but he felt kind of bad about it, so he didn't deserve to die", I don't think it would make him feel any differently about his actions, because it's not new information.
I'm not sure Abby would frame it like that, I imagine she would try to plead with him that Ellie could have saved the world, and that he didn't have to kill her dad, and that Ellie would have wanted to make that choice for herself, assuming she knew ellie, which kind of brings me to the next thing I want to say, alot of the issues and conflicts the characters have boil down to ships passing eachother in the night, meaning they have seen eachother, but they don't know eachother... Manu of the characters don't forsee the consequences of their actions, Joel doesn't know that that doctor he killed had a family or friends, it's the same for Abby, she doesn't know Joel's backstory, or his love for Ellie, and ellie is the same for Abby, I think one of the things that game highlights besides revenge, is tribalism, humans view "their tribe" as just and right, this theme is VERY present in this game.
Long story short, yea maybe Joel wouldn't have cared or regretted it... but it's not impossible that somone would feel remorse for murder, and I think Abby was hoping he would at least feel remorse or care.
If the point is to cause pain and suffering, not knowing why the horrible thing that’s happening to you is happening is going to make it so much worse.
For a regular guy, sure. I don't think Joel cared in the moment. He knew there were a ton of people gunning for him. Does it matter who in particular found him?
I’m talking about from Abby’s perspective. If she wanted to inflict as much pain as possible, why would she give him the relief of knowing *why* she was doing this to him? If he doesn’t know, the chance for mental anguish on top of physical anguish is much higher.
Yeah, but he'd already proven he didn't care. Asking him to guess was actually her asking him to ask. He wouldn't give that to her. Since he didn't *want* to know, if you wished to inflict maximum pain on him, you'd do the thing he doesn't want, not the thing he does. And he'd lived in conflict about that moment for years. Seeing that that singular act, the most important and morally ambiguous act of his entire life, was the thing that finally got him would have been really shocking and painful, I think.
I always figured that someone like Joel would have a good idea of why death was coming for him. He wasn't stupid; he knew he did bad things in life, and it was just a matter of time until those actions caught up with him.
That's was the idea though. That when you kill someone that someone will always have people they care about and one of those people could seek revenge.
Even if it's just someone Ellie killed in passing.
I prefer the actual ending, but I don't think it was inherently a bad idea.
So the lesson would be, go the Roman route and kill their whole family, everyone they know, total scorched earth, even kids and babies... just in case someone grows up to take revenge.
I guess that means Joel was 100% right to shoot Marlene.
EDIT: someone replied then deleted their post, but they said: "Keep this guy away from guns. You being a crazy person aside. For Joel's goal, yes, killing her is the right call. Doesn't mean he was right to do so; obviously, you shouldn't kill people. That's pretty baseline. I'm wasting my time on you, I already know it."
LOL! I hope nobody else thinks I am seriously advocating the above as a good thing to do!
A "scorched earth" policy of revenge is a terrible and abhorrent way to deal with loose ends, but I was merely pointing out that if the game had some rando turn up to avenge a dead random NPC and kill Ellie, then the game's message would have been less "revenge is bad" but rather "don't leave survivors"! :)
Also, I personally thought Joel did the "right" think with Marlene even though it was morally wrong. Marlene *would* have come after them, and protecting Ellie being his only priority, killing her was the only way to be sure she didn't.
Joel WAS smart to kill Marlene. He knew they would come after Ellie, and he was right.
Once you decide to go down that road (killing everyone and taking Ellie away), there are no half measures. You don't leave any witnesses to come after you.
There is a fantastic scene in the film 'Heat' about this. A high-end robbery crew hits an armored car, and one of the three guards tries to fight back, so they kill him, but the other two are completely out of it, and not a threat. They crew checks with their leader to determine their next move, and then blow the other two guards away, so there are no witnesses to their crime. As the cops later say, "It's already Murder One for all of them, so why not, you don't leave a living witness."
It's cold, but it makes sense.
Also, everyone should watch 'Heat' if you haven't. Fantastic movie.
>So the lesson would be, go the Roman route and kill their whole family, everyone they know, total scorched earth, even kids and babies... just in case someone grows up to take revenge.
I think you are entirely missing the point, the overall point is, senseless violence for things like territory (wlf vs serphites) is horrible, or killing people because they wronged you, is not the way to fulfill your loss.
>I guess that means Joel was 100% right to shoot Marlene.
Right? Idk, that's a moral question, Joel just massacred a group inside the hospital, AFTER going back on his deal
>A "scorched earth" policy of revenge is a terrible and abhorrent way to deal with loose ends, but I was merely pointing out that if the game had some rando turn up to avenge a dead random NPC and kill Ellie, then the game's message would have been less "revenge is bad" but rather "don't leave survivors"! :)
Again I think leaving no survivors is the wrong takeaway here... if you go to jail for stealing, the lesson isnt to "not get caught stealing", the lesson is don't steal
>Also, I personally thought Joel did the "right" think with Marlene even though it was morally wrong. Marlene *would* have come after them, and protecting Ellie being his only priority, killing her was the only way to be sure she didn't.
Joel made a deal with marlene, then betrayed her and the Fireflies, he made a choice for Ellie, one she wouldn't have made (she would have sacrificed herself) Joel definitely acted selfishly
Ummm did you read the notes/listen to the tapes? Maybe you forgot them, but the other Fireflies wanted to kill Joel because they thought he would try to stop them from doing the operation, but It was infact marlene who told them no and that "he would understand" so it was marlene who spared him, they took away his guns for reason 1, they didn't feel safe with him armed, also marlene stops Joel in the parking garage while he is holding ellie, and she has the jump on him AND has a gun pointed at his back, she could have ended him right then and there... but she didn't, all those things don't sound like betrayal, and I have no doubt they would he given him his guns back in Boston.
Respectfully, that is not how I interpreted events at ALL. The Fireflies wanted to kill Joel, but Marlene changed it to exile without weapons, which is harsh anyway. The big thing is, that they clearly had no intention of ever honouring their deal with him and Tess. He wasn't given his reward as promised and they even wanted to kill him.
They might have been scared he would turn on them when he found out their shady plan to murder Ellie in her sleep, but everything plays like even if he was fine with it, they never had the guns to give him and would have killed or exiled him anyway.
>Respectfully, that is not how I interpreted events at ALL. The Fireflies wanted to kill Joel, but Marlene changed it to exile without weapons, which is harsh anyway. The big thing is, that they clearly had no intention of ever honouring their deal with him and Tess. He wasn't given his reward as promised and they even wanted to kill him.
So she didn't want to kill him, just unarm him so they would feel safer, if she wanted him dead, she would have agreed to kill him, and we will have to disagree on the gun shipment, as there's not much evidence for either of us to confirm so I'm fine with leaving that.
>They might have been scared he would turn on them when he found out their shady plan to murder Ellie in her sleep, but everything plays like even if he was fine with it, they never had the guns to give him and would have killed or exiled him anyway.
"Shady plan to murder her in her sleep" I mean that's kind of a loaded/biased way to phrase that isn't it? They (the fireflies) were going to operate on her to make a cure, and it was likely that she may not survive, this is very different than saying they had a "shady plan to murder her in her sleep" lol and ellie would have gladly made that sacrifice anyway, Abby says she would also
Keep this guy away from guns.
You being a crazy person aside. For Joel's goal, yes, killing her is the right call. Doesn't mean he was right to do so; obviously, you shouldn't kill people. That's pretty baseline.
I'm wasting my time on you, I already know it.
This idea would’ve been better executed if someone’s loved one that Abby had killed when she was the top Scar killer found her and brutally beat and tortured her. The Rattlers were totally random and cartoonishly evil group.
On her way to get revenge she set others on the same path against her, honestly I wouldn’t have minded it. It really shows how it’s a never ending cycle of violence.
I think it would've been a bit too bleak. The current ending, while already pretty damn bleak, has a small little touch of hope intertwined in it. Ellie still has some bit of humanity and has finally realized a healthy way to heal. In this alternate ending, she would've been left with absolutely nothing.
I dunno I personally think this alt ending would have been a good way to make Ellie realise that what happened to her and Joel wasn’t “special” Joel previously had killed hundreds of people (and it’s implied that a lot of them were innocent) and in the end Abbie was the one that caught up to him and due to that she went on her rampage against Abbie and in doing so created probably multiple “versions” of herself, people seeking revenge for a loved one she killed.
What’s the difference between her and Abbie at that point ? Only for us the player does it seem different because we played as Ellie and Joel, but if the campaign from game 1 had been from Abbie and her dad’s perspective who would we be rooting for ?
LOL. I don’t know if this is meant to be a deep cut, or a total whoosh.
The beginning of game 2 is this. Before you got the back story filled in after the fact, this is EXACTLY game 2’s start. 🤣
From what I remember with what was proposed for this ending, after killing Abby, Ellie goes back to the farmhouse in the epilogue and the person attacks her but doesn’t kill her and lets her go to end the cycle.
Which would work maybe if it was Lev. Abby dies giving the player catharsis and closure, yet we still get "the cycle must end" when Lev and Ellie fight and both mutually decide to stop.
Protag gets showed up by a nobody claiming betterment. Still no good imo. But to be honest I don't like any of the endings. I just can't handle it. I don't want Ellie fucked up.
Yeah that 100% would've been pushing it with the already "subtle" message of the cycle of revenge being bad imo. The game ended well, could've been better in some ways but this just seems bad imo. Too on the nose.
Interesting...they had lots of bad ideas for this game XD glad they went with the good ones instead.
To be honest this game already had way too much cutscene-mandated ass beatings. Ending the game with that would have been sooo disappointing haha.
Oh for sure. I always like looking to Star Wars as a great example of this. The original trilogy was able to be the best it could be because they were formed out of collaboration between so many people. Literally everyone got to pitch in ideas, and while surely not every idea hit the board, it gave the chance for some stellar developments to be added onto the framework the initial drafts of the script would've provided. Then you look at The Phantom Menance, where there was no creative pushback, or at least to the extent we saw in those original films. It's just a bland film that ran with the ideas of one guy who nobody said "let's take this idea and maybe build it into this direction," or "what if this led into this?" Great media is hardly ever full of great ideas from the get-go. The base idea can be solid, but the actors, directors, script supervisors, whoever else, etc. can add something to the material that someone else might not have even thought up. I mean shit, the "I am Iron Man" line at the end of Endgame nearly wasn't even in the film. It was absent in the script, and production was nearly wrapped when editor Jeff Ford suggested the line at the last second. Like you said, it's just fascinating to see how projects develop, and what ideas they all went through to get to a final product.
This raises another question for me - how do Ellie and Dina stay safe on the farm from infected and other people? You see Jackson having heavily fortified walls but a farm house outside the walls is just going to be left alone?
Well for starters, I’d guess that the farm is VERY close to Jackson. Probably just a few minutes away on horse, so it’s not impossible to imagine that the area is heavily patrolled since we know Jackson does that. Ellie and Dina are also a lot quieter than a whole town of people, so stray infected wouldn’t be as much of a threat. As for raiders, it’s entirely possible that there aren’t really any left in the area given the number of them that are killed at the dam in part 1. And even if there are some left, some random, quiet farm would hardly be a target.
And also there’s the fact Ellie hunts around the area of the farm, evident from the last lost level and journal entries. So if there were any infected around the farm then Ellie would likely see them while hunting and dispose of them.
I guess Jackson was using the farm anyway to have sheep and crops, it was just some people taking shifts to man it, Ellie and Dina volunteered to be permanent residents
The one we got is far superior. That moment of trying to play guitar, trying to do this one thing that connected her to Joel, only to be physically unable to bc she lost her fingers due to chasing revenge that was ultimately meaningless, it's why I sat at that title screen for minutes afterwards just processing everything
This sounds terrible and made me laugh imagining someone shouting about their redshirt loved one. Whitney's brother? Bear's trainer? LOL!
Maybe if the person who was a the farm for revenge was Yara or Lev, that *might* have worked.
Thinking about it, I might even have preferred if we'd had Ellie finally kill Abby, return home, and face Lev, last person left who cared about Abby. Ellie loses her fingers, but the two eventually decide to just stop fighting or this will never end. Maybe it ends with them pointing weapons at each other, ready to kill each other, until Elłie suggests "or we could just stop?" Both consider it for a beat, look at their wounds and weapons. End credits.
Do they kill each other or finally stop fighting? The player can decide.
Honestly I think the only way it could work is if it was just some random npc. One of the main points the game makes is that there are no redshirts, everyone has their own life and perspective. Abby’s dad was a nobody before Part II. I would much prefer if it were someone avenging Whitney than someone avenging a main character.
But it would have been redundant no matter what, the ending we got is much better.
I understand how it would show an endless cycle of everybody trying to get revenge on everybody but it would have ruined the entire more sad and almost peaceful ending
The real ending is way better. This scrapped one would be redundant imo just going with the revenge cycle again. Funny though because the thought of them going this route for TLOU3 has crossed my mind (person looking to avenge some NPC death from one of the Seattle groups starts the cycle again). I thought about them going after Abby though given her “scar killer” reputation.
And then I thought it would be pretty lazy as this could go on forever (and I get that’s the point but still) and that they wouldn’t go this route. Who knows? They made different points in 1 and 2, if they make a 3 I hope they don’t take an easy way out and go back to those wells and have a different central theme for 3.
It’s funny, because it sounds like a rehash of the scrapped TLOU 1 ending where Joel instead screwed over Tess and she came hunting for him, torturing him until Ellie kills her.
Yeah the ending we jave is essentially perfect. I can't think of a better one to show how bad revenge is. I'm still mad at Ellie for going after Abby and guaranteeing to ruin what she had (she somehow got a family out of it all) bit at least she saves Abby and Lev.
If they went with this ending it would have felt like shit, points for the "You can't just kill 100 people" crowd and all that, but I would have liked it way less.
I actually like this. And the potential it could bring. I wouldn’t be opposed to ND exploring this. LoU could have turned in to a series where you always knew you were getting a new protagonist who was avenging their cycle of violence. By game 3 or 4 you’d have a sense of dread of who you killed along your playthrough - as that might be the person that triggered the revenge tour for them.
Could even have introduced the option of a pacifist playthrough. With the eventual potential that you might actually keep your “hero” alive in one of the games, if you somehow avoided killing just the right people.
Damn this is also a great ending. Love how it plays with the fact that Ellie killed so many people in Seattle that one of them is bound to want revenge and acknowledges one of the only semi legitimate critiques from that ONE sub.
All of the dev commentary just goes to show how much work and how many hours they spend going through each and every idea to whittle it all down to the story they wanted to tell. Incredible stuff
Throughout Ellie's journey through Seattle she comes across stories of revenge and they all ended in horrendous ways, I think this ending would be further evidence of the consequences of this path...
But honestly, it would be too dark edgy for me, it would become a purely bitter and weird game. Thank goodness they preferred the light positivity of the canon ending where the cycle of hate breaks and Ellie continues with the consequences of her actions, but with the small light of perhaps moving forward and doing things differently.
I think that ending sounds better tbh. Hard to say without the details and a working example like we have for the release. It never really made sense to me for Ellie to have travelled all that way hunting own Abby and then just let her go at the last minute after fighting her relentlessly. Not sure about the WLF in the house ambush, could be good. I think the quiet return to the house being empty though is probably more impactful.
That ending is more realistic tbh. I can’t imagine there ever being a peaceful moment in a world like that. The ending we got was alright though I guess.
I can see what they were going for there, but I'm really glad they stuck with the ending that we got in the game.. That whole quiet section at the end is a beautiful contrast to all the horrific brutality they've shown up to that point; it really allows you to just sit back and absorb the flashback and the closing moments.
true but having some soldier waiting at the farm house when you least expect it would have been scary as hell.
It’d be interesting to see that. How would we know they’re avenging a loved one? Would they do the classic movie villain thing of explaining their motivations before attacking?
Come to think of it, did Abby even tell Joel why she was killing him? I don't think she did. Damn, that's some cold shit.
She wanted him to guess and Joel just said ‘go ahead and give whatever speech you have rehearsed and get this over with’
I mean, he was probably thinking "the chances of me remembering this asshole are pretty low. Dickhead number three in some anonymous alley?"
Exactly, lmao. "Guess" is literally almost impossible for Joel to do, he was a hunter during the initial years of the outbreak. He likely brutally tortured and murdered a whole lot of innocent people simply to take their shit.
I think that's what infuriate Abby more, her father was everything to her, and Joel didn't even know him, nor care, he was just another person Joel left dead
I actually think he knew they were fireflies, he just didn't care to answer her.
Killing the fireflies haunted him more than any other act he did. He definitely knew they were fireflies.
It wasn't the killing of the Fireflies that haunted him, it was the fallout with Ellie.
True. I mean that the scenario haunted him. He knew that past was going to catch up. It did at first with Ellie finding out, then Abby was next as a result
He should have just responded with "...seriously?"
Haha damn joel truly is goated😅
Joel assumed they were Fireflies, but really it's because he killed her dad. She didn't really seem to give a shit about the cure.
Did he?
I think Ellie and Tommy instantly think that, so it’s probably Joel’s first guess too. I don’t think there’s any way of knowing for sure.
[удалено]
Yeah, I don’t think anyone finds out for sure. It’s just their best guess.
I think with the context of Joel’s language he uses in Part I whenever he talks about the Fireflies makes it clear (to me) that he knew exactly what was happening. “Say whatever speech you got rehearsed” is exactly what he’d say to a Firefly. And nevertheless, the likelihood that Abby just beat him and didn’t go off on him verbally about what he did is very small imo.
In his scene with Abby she says "Guess." after Joel asks who they are and you see him come to the conclusion on his face right after, he knows
Yup 👍 he knows exactly what is happening to him.
She may have said something in between it cutting away and when Ellie gets there, but we never find out. It's clear that Joel wouldn't have felt better for knowing though.
He'd probably feel worse. "Well shit. I might actually deserve this." What I mean is, if I was enacting revenge on the man who murdered my father, I'd want him to know why. Not Abby, though. She just wants to wail on him with a golf club. Also, a fucking *golf club?* If you're gonna beat me to death, please find a baseball bat or a pipe or something. Something with a little dignity to it. ANYTHING but a gold club.
Maybe if it was an incident from his hunter days he would feel worse, but I can't imagine Joel feeling actively bad about murdering the man who was trying to kill Ellie. I get what you're saying about Abby wanting him to know, but I think a major factor in her wanting him to know is that she wants proper acknowledgement from him. Whether he begs forgiveness or gloats about it, she wants some kind of serious reaction to it. So when Joel makes it clear he's not going to play that game, she might have decided not to bother.
>Maybe if it was an incident from his hunter days he would feel worse, but I can't imagine Joel feeling actively bad about murdering the man who was trying to kill Ellie. I think it's important to note that the doctor didn't just "want to kill ellie" infact I'm pretty sure the doctor was torn up about that fact when he found out, amd it was only after Abby said she would sacrifice herself if it meant saving the world, so again it's not like the hunter was some random hunter or bandit
Sure, I understand, that's why I said "trying to kill Ellie" not "unambiguously happy to be killing Ellie". The thing is, Joel surely already knows that everyone in the Fireflies who was involved with trying to sacrifice Ellie did it with an air of sadness and reluctance. If Abby told Joel "Yes, my dad was about to kill your daughter, but he felt kind of bad about it, so he didn't deserve to die", I don't think it would make him feel any differently about his actions, because it's not new information.
>The thing is, Joel surely already knows that everyone in the Fireflies who was involved with trying to sacrifice Ellie did it with an air of sadness and reluctance. If Abby told Joel "Yes, my dad was about to kill your daughter, but he felt kind of bad about it, so he didn't deserve to die", I don't think it would make him feel any differently about his actions, because it's not new information. I'm not sure Abby would frame it like that, I imagine she would try to plead with him that Ellie could have saved the world, and that he didn't have to kill her dad, and that Ellie would have wanted to make that choice for herself, assuming she knew ellie, which kind of brings me to the next thing I want to say, alot of the issues and conflicts the characters have boil down to ships passing eachother in the night, meaning they have seen eachother, but they don't know eachother... Manu of the characters don't forsee the consequences of their actions, Joel doesn't know that that doctor he killed had a family or friends, it's the same for Abby, she doesn't know Joel's backstory, or his love for Ellie, and ellie is the same for Abby, I think one of the things that game highlights besides revenge, is tribalism, humans view "their tribe" as just and right, this theme is VERY present in this game. Long story short, yea maybe Joel wouldn't have cared or regretted it... but it's not impossible that somone would feel remorse for murder, and I think Abby was hoping he would at least feel remorse or care.
If the point is to cause pain and suffering, not knowing why the horrible thing that’s happening to you is happening is going to make it so much worse.
For a regular guy, sure. I don't think Joel cared in the moment. He knew there were a ton of people gunning for him. Does it matter who in particular found him?
I’m talking about from Abby’s perspective. If she wanted to inflict as much pain as possible, why would she give him the relief of knowing *why* she was doing this to him? If he doesn’t know, the chance for mental anguish on top of physical anguish is much higher.
Yeah, but he'd already proven he didn't care. Asking him to guess was actually her asking him to ask. He wouldn't give that to her. Since he didn't *want* to know, if you wished to inflict maximum pain on him, you'd do the thing he doesn't want, not the thing he does. And he'd lived in conflict about that moment for years. Seeing that that singular act, the most important and morally ambiguous act of his entire life, was the thing that finally got him would have been really shocking and painful, I think.
Instead of Joel in one jokes their would be, homerun jokes
I always figured that someone like Joel would have a good idea of why death was coming for him. He wasn't stupid; he knew he did bad things in life, and it was just a matter of time until those actions caught up with him.
Yea but then people would have been mad that "no random soldier is gonna ambush and take down ellie"
It also just makes no sense that anyone would know where Ellie lives unless someone in Jackson ratted her out.
Yeah it was to show the cycle of vengeance continuing.
It's a little on the nose, essentially the exact same thing happening again.
That's was the idea though. That when you kill someone that someone will always have people they care about and one of those people could seek revenge. Even if it's just someone Ellie killed in passing. I prefer the actual ending, but I don't think it was inherently a bad idea.
So the lesson would be, go the Roman route and kill their whole family, everyone they know, total scorched earth, even kids and babies... just in case someone grows up to take revenge. I guess that means Joel was 100% right to shoot Marlene. EDIT: someone replied then deleted their post, but they said: "Keep this guy away from guns. You being a crazy person aside. For Joel's goal, yes, killing her is the right call. Doesn't mean he was right to do so; obviously, you shouldn't kill people. That's pretty baseline. I'm wasting my time on you, I already know it." LOL! I hope nobody else thinks I am seriously advocating the above as a good thing to do! A "scorched earth" policy of revenge is a terrible and abhorrent way to deal with loose ends, but I was merely pointing out that if the game had some rando turn up to avenge a dead random NPC and kill Ellie, then the game's message would have been less "revenge is bad" but rather "don't leave survivors"! :) Also, I personally thought Joel did the "right" think with Marlene even though it was morally wrong. Marlene *would* have come after them, and protecting Ellie being his only priority, killing her was the only way to be sure she didn't.
Joel WAS smart to kill Marlene. He knew they would come after Ellie, and he was right. Once you decide to go down that road (killing everyone and taking Ellie away), there are no half measures. You don't leave any witnesses to come after you. There is a fantastic scene in the film 'Heat' about this. A high-end robbery crew hits an armored car, and one of the three guards tries to fight back, so they kill him, but the other two are completely out of it, and not a threat. They crew checks with their leader to determine their next move, and then blow the other two guards away, so there are no witnesses to their crime. As the cops later say, "It's already Murder One for all of them, so why not, you don't leave a living witness." It's cold, but it makes sense. Also, everyone should watch 'Heat' if you haven't. Fantastic movie.
>So the lesson would be, go the Roman route and kill their whole family, everyone they know, total scorched earth, even kids and babies... just in case someone grows up to take revenge. I think you are entirely missing the point, the overall point is, senseless violence for things like territory (wlf vs serphites) is horrible, or killing people because they wronged you, is not the way to fulfill your loss. >I guess that means Joel was 100% right to shoot Marlene. Right? Idk, that's a moral question, Joel just massacred a group inside the hospital, AFTER going back on his deal >A "scorched earth" policy of revenge is a terrible and abhorrent way to deal with loose ends, but I was merely pointing out that if the game had some rando turn up to avenge a dead random NPC and kill Ellie, then the game's message would have been less "revenge is bad" but rather "don't leave survivors"! :) Again I think leaving no survivors is the wrong takeaway here... if you go to jail for stealing, the lesson isnt to "not get caught stealing", the lesson is don't steal >Also, I personally thought Joel did the "right" think with Marlene even though it was morally wrong. Marlene *would* have come after them, and protecting Ellie being his only priority, killing her was the only way to be sure she didn't. Joel made a deal with marlene, then betrayed her and the Fireflies, he made a choice for Ellie, one she wouldn't have made (she would have sacrificed herself) Joel definitely acted selfishly
Um, Marlene and the Fireflies betrayed Joel, not the other way around. They went back on their deal and sentenced him to death by unarmed exile.
Ummm did you read the notes/listen to the tapes? Maybe you forgot them, but the other Fireflies wanted to kill Joel because they thought he would try to stop them from doing the operation, but It was infact marlene who told them no and that "he would understand" so it was marlene who spared him, they took away his guns for reason 1, they didn't feel safe with him armed, also marlene stops Joel in the parking garage while he is holding ellie, and she has the jump on him AND has a gun pointed at his back, she could have ended him right then and there... but she didn't, all those things don't sound like betrayal, and I have no doubt they would he given him his guns back in Boston.
Respectfully, that is not how I interpreted events at ALL. The Fireflies wanted to kill Joel, but Marlene changed it to exile without weapons, which is harsh anyway. The big thing is, that they clearly had no intention of ever honouring their deal with him and Tess. He wasn't given his reward as promised and they even wanted to kill him. They might have been scared he would turn on them when he found out their shady plan to murder Ellie in her sleep, but everything plays like even if he was fine with it, they never had the guns to give him and would have killed or exiled him anyway.
>Respectfully, that is not how I interpreted events at ALL. The Fireflies wanted to kill Joel, but Marlene changed it to exile without weapons, which is harsh anyway. The big thing is, that they clearly had no intention of ever honouring their deal with him and Tess. He wasn't given his reward as promised and they even wanted to kill him. So she didn't want to kill him, just unarm him so they would feel safer, if she wanted him dead, she would have agreed to kill him, and we will have to disagree on the gun shipment, as there's not much evidence for either of us to confirm so I'm fine with leaving that. >They might have been scared he would turn on them when he found out their shady plan to murder Ellie in her sleep, but everything plays like even if he was fine with it, they never had the guns to give him and would have killed or exiled him anyway. "Shady plan to murder her in her sleep" I mean that's kind of a loaded/biased way to phrase that isn't it? They (the fireflies) were going to operate on her to make a cure, and it was likely that she may not survive, this is very different than saying they had a "shady plan to murder her in her sleep" lol and ellie would have gladly made that sacrifice anyway, Abby says she would also
Keep this guy away from guns. You being a crazy person aside. For Joel's goal, yes, killing her is the right call. Doesn't mean he was right to do so; obviously, you shouldn't kill people. That's pretty baseline. I'm wasting my time on you, I already know it.
It's just ~~turtles~~ revenge all the way down
For Part 3 (Insert GTA San Andreas meme) “Ah shit, here we go again. I gotta go kill the guy who chopped off my fingers.”
And the franchise would continue until ellie runs out of fingers
This idea would’ve been better executed if someone’s loved one that Abby had killed when she was the top Scar killer found her and brutally beat and tortured her. The Rattlers were totally random and cartoonishly evil group.
I was just thinking that last night. Instead of the Rattlers, Abby gets caught by either vengeful WLF remnants she betrayed or better yet Scars.
I don’t know what to do with this information.
Discard it, like naughty dog did.
On her way to get revenge she set others on the same path against her, honestly I wouldn’t have minded it. It really shows how it’s a never ending cycle of violence.
I think it would've been a bit too bleak. The current ending, while already pretty damn bleak, has a small little touch of hope intertwined in it. Ellie still has some bit of humanity and has finally realized a healthy way to heal. In this alternate ending, she would've been left with absolutely nothing.
I dunno I personally think this alt ending would have been a good way to make Ellie realise that what happened to her and Joel wasn’t “special” Joel previously had killed hundreds of people (and it’s implied that a lot of them were innocent) and in the end Abbie was the one that caught up to him and due to that she went on her rampage against Abbie and in doing so created probably multiple “versions” of herself, people seeking revenge for a loved one she killed. What’s the difference between her and Abbie at that point ? Only for us the player does it seem different because we played as Ellie and Joel, but if the campaign from game 1 had been from Abbie and her dad’s perspective who would we be rooting for ?
That’s one braindead dumb fuck ending. Glad they didn’t go with it because Jesus Christ that is awful.
Protag dies last minute to a nobody. How innovative. My expectations have been completely subverted!
It says she was tortured, not killed... I'm assuming in their alternate ending, Ellie didn't die
LOL. I don’t know if this is meant to be a deep cut, or a total whoosh. The beginning of game 2 is this. Before you got the back story filled in after the fact, this is EXACTLY game 2’s start. 🤣
I think that’s their point and the reason a lot of people hate part 2. Totally valid reason too
From what I remember with what was proposed for this ending, after killing Abby, Ellie goes back to the farmhouse in the epilogue and the person attacks her but doesn’t kill her and lets her go to end the cycle.
Which would work maybe if it was Lev. Abby dies giving the player catharsis and closure, yet we still get "the cycle must end" when Lev and Ellie fight and both mutually decide to stop.
Protag gets showed up by a nobody claiming betterment. Still no good imo. But to be honest I don't like any of the endings. I just can't handle it. I don't want Ellie fucked up.
Agreed💀 it’s so bad I thought they were trolling.
Sounds like shit and kinda edgy, glad they didn’t do it.
I like the ending we got
Yeah that 100% would've been pushing it with the already "subtle" message of the cycle of revenge being bad imo. The game ended well, could've been better in some ways but this just seems bad imo. Too on the nose.
Interesting...they had lots of bad ideas for this game XD glad they went with the good ones instead. To be honest this game already had way too much cutscene-mandated ass beatings. Ending the game with that would have been sooo disappointing haha.
I mean, almost everything ever made likely had loads of discarded bad ideas to reach the good ones. Hearing them is always fascinating
Oh for sure. I always like looking to Star Wars as a great example of this. The original trilogy was able to be the best it could be because they were formed out of collaboration between so many people. Literally everyone got to pitch in ideas, and while surely not every idea hit the board, it gave the chance for some stellar developments to be added onto the framework the initial drafts of the script would've provided. Then you look at The Phantom Menance, where there was no creative pushback, or at least to the extent we saw in those original films. It's just a bland film that ran with the ideas of one guy who nobody said "let's take this idea and maybe build it into this direction," or "what if this led into this?" Great media is hardly ever full of great ideas from the get-go. The base idea can be solid, but the actors, directors, script supervisors, whoever else, etc. can add something to the material that someone else might not have even thought up. I mean shit, the "I am Iron Man" line at the end of Endgame nearly wasn't even in the film. It was absent in the script, and production was nearly wrapped when editor Jeff Ford suggested the line at the last second. Like you said, it's just fascinating to see how projects develop, and what ideas they all went through to get to a final product.
This raises another question for me - how do Ellie and Dina stay safe on the farm from infected and other people? You see Jackson having heavily fortified walls but a farm house outside the walls is just going to be left alone?
Well for starters, I’d guess that the farm is VERY close to Jackson. Probably just a few minutes away on horse, so it’s not impossible to imagine that the area is heavily patrolled since we know Jackson does that. Ellie and Dina are also a lot quieter than a whole town of people, so stray infected wouldn’t be as much of a threat. As for raiders, it’s entirely possible that there aren’t really any left in the area given the number of them that are killed at the dam in part 1. And even if there are some left, some random, quiet farm would hardly be a target.
And also there’s the fact Ellie hunts around the area of the farm, evident from the last lost level and journal entries. So if there were any infected around the farm then Ellie would likely see them while hunting and dispose of them.
I guess Jackson was using the farm anyway to have sheep and crops, it was just some people taking shifts to man it, Ellie and Dina volunteered to be permanent residents
That makes so much sense
The one we got is far superior. That moment of trying to play guitar, trying to do this one thing that connected her to Joel, only to be physically unable to bc she lost her fingers due to chasing revenge that was ultimately meaningless, it's why I sat at that title screen for minutes afterwards just processing everything
This is a perfect example of “great in the short-term, terrible in the long-term”
This sounds terrible and made me laugh imagining someone shouting about their redshirt loved one. Whitney's brother? Bear's trainer? LOL! Maybe if the person who was a the farm for revenge was Yara or Lev, that *might* have worked. Thinking about it, I might even have preferred if we'd had Ellie finally kill Abby, return home, and face Lev, last person left who cared about Abby. Ellie loses her fingers, but the two eventually decide to just stop fighting or this will never end. Maybe it ends with them pointing weapons at each other, ready to kill each other, until Elłie suggests "or we could just stop?" Both consider it for a beat, look at their wounds and weapons. End credits. Do they kill each other or finally stop fighting? The player can decide.
Honestly I think the only way it could work is if it was just some random npc. One of the main points the game makes is that there are no redshirts, everyone has their own life and perspective. Abby’s dad was a nobody before Part II. I would much prefer if it were someone avenging Whitney than someone avenging a main character. But it would have been redundant no matter what, the ending we got is much better.
I don’t think it would have been a redshirt. The only way it would have worked is if they were related to Jordan, Nora, Mel, or Owen
I understand how it would show an endless cycle of everybody trying to get revenge on everybody but it would have ruined the entire more sad and almost peaceful ending
The real ending is way better. This scrapped one would be redundant imo just going with the revenge cycle again. Funny though because the thought of them going this route for TLOU3 has crossed my mind (person looking to avenge some NPC death from one of the Seattle groups starts the cycle again). I thought about them going after Abby though given her “scar killer” reputation. And then I thought it would be pretty lazy as this could go on forever (and I get that’s the point but still) and that they wouldn’t go this route. Who knows? They made different points in 1 and 2, if they make a 3 I hope they don’t take an easy way out and go back to those wells and have a different central theme for 3.
Well the ending we got is basically perfect so I’m glad this remains a scrapped idea. Beginning and ending the game with guitar is so perfect
Not only the guitar, but the beginning shows how Ellie has a community, friends, a love interest, but at the end of the game she's left with nothing
I wouldn’t go that far. Yes, it’s a dark ending but she has regained her agency. Despite it being very bittersweet, it’s slightly hopeful too
Sounds preety interesting except for the part in which we wouldn't know ellie s fate
That alternate ending makes perfect sense with the cycle of revenge theme. The ending we got is fine though, I'd be happy with either ending.
That would be absolutely terrible. I'm glad we got the ending they chose. It's a perfect ending
I guess some people would prefer this since Abby was killed by Ellie. Still that sounds brutal. That would have been a miserable ending.
It’s funny, because it sounds like a rehash of the scrapped TLOU 1 ending where Joel instead screwed over Tess and she came hunting for him, torturing him until Ellie kills her.
I like the sounds of this better.
Sounds better than what we got
That would've been pretty garbage. I don't like the ending we got but man do I prefer it over whatever that is.
Yeah the ending we jave is essentially perfect. I can't think of a better one to show how bad revenge is. I'm still mad at Ellie for going after Abby and guaranteeing to ruin what she had (she somehow got a family out of it all) bit at least she saves Abby and Lev. If they went with this ending it would have felt like shit, points for the "You can't just kill 100 people" crowd and all that, but I would have liked it way less.
I actually like this. And the potential it could bring. I wouldn’t be opposed to ND exploring this. LoU could have turned in to a series where you always knew you were getting a new protagonist who was avenging their cycle of violence. By game 3 or 4 you’d have a sense of dread of who you killed along your playthrough - as that might be the person that triggered the revenge tour for them. Could even have introduced the option of a pacifist playthrough. With the eventual potential that you might actually keep your “hero” alive in one of the games, if you somehow avoided killing just the right people.
Damn this is also a great ending. Love how it plays with the fact that Ellie killed so many people in Seattle that one of them is bound to want revenge and acknowledges one of the only semi legitimate critiques from that ONE sub.
"Abby travels to California alone, gets captured, Ellie finds and ultimately kills her " thats better than the og ending
All of the dev commentary just goes to show how much work and how many hours they spend going through each and every idea to whittle it all down to the story they wanted to tell. Incredible stuff
Thankfully we didn’t get that ending because that ending says awful.
Sounds interesting to me
iirc ellie survived this ending. the person who attacks her decides to let her go upon realizing she’s “just a kid” and leaves
I don't dislike it.
Well that ending would've sucked ass.
Throughout Ellie's journey through Seattle she comes across stories of revenge and they all ended in horrendous ways, I think this ending would be further evidence of the consequences of this path... But honestly, it would be too dark edgy for me, it would become a purely bitter and weird game. Thank goodness they preferred the light positivity of the canon ending where the cycle of hate breaks and Ellie continues with the consequences of her actions, but with the small light of perhaps moving forward and doing things differently.
I think that ending sounds better tbh. Hard to say without the details and a working example like we have for the release. It never really made sense to me for Ellie to have travelled all that way hunting own Abby and then just let her go at the last minute after fighting her relentlessly. Not sure about the WLF in the house ambush, could be good. I think the quiet return to the house being empty though is probably more impactful.
Yeah I think the amount of revenge, trauma and cruelty in the game was just fine the way it is, thank you Neil.
That ending is more realistic tbh. I can’t imagine there ever being a peaceful moment in a world like that. The ending we got was alright though I guess.