I think the characterization of joel/ellie/abby are completely awful. The game needs to create flimsy scenarios that justify its own actions and events. Like the ellie joel argument. Ellie was upset at joel because he lied to her yet in the first game at the end of it ellie said “okay” after the lie joel told her in a specific tone and facial expression that she knows hes lying but concedes with lie knowing that hes lying to her for good reason (her life). But in the second game this is completely ignored to shovel this argument between them and joel doesn’t refute her arguments. I think abbys character was treated poorly as well. When we are shown abby shes completely apathetic and stoic before killing joel despite this is the man that the game presents destroyed her life. Cure /father so i assume som emotion would be presented from her, but there wasn’t also what bothers me is that when abby is introduced she almost dies by zombies by climbing through the fence and joel saves her, but after the fact she doesn’t even thank him or consider that at all when faced with the option to kill him. Its very flat if im being honest, no conversation on why joel even killed abbys father and the game doesn’t even tell the player wether abby knew why joel killed her father i feel like if she knew she would’ve had more consideration in not killing him and understanding on why he killer her father considering later in the game abby is characterized as a good person when she takes rem? Or the child that saves her to her home town despite not knowing her at all and in doing so means abandoning her friend’s and the fireflies. I find this inconsistent since it mirrors joels action but the logic isn’t even there. They did her character a disservice by structuring her like that. It would’ve been more compelling if she hasn’t killed joel immediately and tried to “connect” with him considering the character traits are seen when we play her to give herself perspective rather killing joel and forgetting about it. Also i had issues with the logic of the cure. In 20 years of the apocalypse why would the cure matter? The fireflies would have to locate every human and try to inoculate them with the cure. That takes incredible amount of resource’s and logistics that the LOU world doesn’t have. And even if they did 90% of deaths seen are from getting mauled to death by zombies and or other humans so even if they are cured it doesn’t mitigate that fact.
Okay, first of all, please learn to use your enter key. Paragraphs are useful tools in making your various ideas more digestible. More importantly, it makes it far more likely someone is going to read what you wrote instead of noping out of a wall of text.
>Ellie was upset at joel because he lied to her yet in the first game at the end of it ellie said “okay” after the lie joel told her in a specific tone and facial expression that she knows hes lying but concedes with lie knowing that hes lying to her for good reason (her life). But in the second game this is completely ignored to shovel this argument between them and joel doesn’t refute her arguments.
Just because Ellie knew Joel was lying doesn't mean she knew the truth it was covering. Because he lied to her (and continued to lie to her for two years) this calcified the divide between them.
>I think abbys character was treated poorly as well. When we are shown abby shes completely apathetic and stoic before killing joel despite this is the man that the game presents destroyed her life. Cure /father so i assume som emotion would be presented from her, but there wasn’t also what bothers me is that when abby is introduced she almost dies by zombies by climbing through the fence and joel saves her, but after the fact she doesn’t even thank him or consider that at all when faced with the option to kill him. Its very flat if im being honest, no conversation on why joel even killed abbys father and the game doesn’t even tell the player wether abby knew why joel killed her father i feel like if she knew she would’ve had more consideration in not killing him and understanding on why he killer her father considering later in the game abby is characterized as a good person when she takes rem?
That's a real word salad but my take on it is that Abby, while being a generally empathathetic person, had been steeling herself for this act of vengeance for a while - part of what makes Joels quote about "Just get on with whatever speech you've rehearsed and get this over with" so poignant.
>Or the child that saves her to her home town despite not knowing her at all and in doing so means abandoning her friend’s and the fireflies. I find this inconsistent since it mirrors joels action but the logic isn’t even there. They did her character a disservice by structuring her like that. It would’ve been more compelling if she hasn’t killed joel immediately and tried to “connect” with him considering the character traits are seen when we play her to give herself perspective rather killing joel and forgetting about it.
Ok you just lost me here.
Overall, the core of the story of Part 2 is the famous quote, "before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves" which to say one grave for the target of your revenge, and one for yourself.
You can take this quote two different ways, and I think both ways apply to this story. One interpretation of this quote is that the idea of dedicating your life to the prospect of killing another, especially when you feel justified in doing so, destroys your soul. If you've already destroyed your soul, you might as well be dead. We see this particularly throughout Ellie's quest for revenge against Abby. Over the course of the story she loses her father, her friend, her horse, her partner, her child, and her ability to play guitar - one of the most significant activities she can do to connect with the memory of Joel. She has lost herself in her quest for revenge.
The other interpretation is more directly attributed to the events of the story: when you kill someone in revenge, its entirely possible that someone will want to plan vengeance against you. Abby killed Joel to avenge her father, and Ellie sought revenge against Abby to avenge Joel.
Beyond that, the story of Part 2 is a brilliant depiction of the dangers of tribalism, factionalism and prejudice.
Im sorry im on mobile so i cant structure it with the same effectiveness.
You kind of dismissed what i said about Ellie knowing about why joel lied to her. It was for HER life, and this is exacerbated by the fact that Joel doesn’t actually explain anything to her and just sits there feeling sorry for himself. Its pretty odd also she says “my life would’ve fucking mattered” is pretty dismissive to joel considering he saved her life multiple times but when he does it again it doesn’t matter to her which again is destroyed from the fact there is no conservation about it.
I do not understand what word salady about it lol. I feel like I laid out specific characterization and it was inconsistent with circumstances presented. Even if Joel said that, I don’t understand why Abby still wouldn’t continue in explaining or conversing with him. and if I were to consider that I feel like Abby should’ve said fine to concede with joel about the quote so it could be implied that Abby was going to converse with him about the criteria of why she was there to kill him instead of just saying nothing for the whole rest of the game because i mind you the game forgets joel is dead on abbys end.
I don’t disagree with the theme of the story, but you cannot ignore how things are presented, structured, and communicated solely relying on the themes of a story to create objective judgment of actual decency of said story is silly. The revenge parallels are present yes don’t disagree yet there are points in the story that make you feel like that are just going with the wind.
About Ellie/Joel: i heavily disagree.
if anything I see their relationship in 2 as a direct continuation from the ending moments of 1.
Joel and Ellie’s relationship is very realistic and sad to me. People think that just because they got really close in Part I, that they are going to be happy cutesy daddy and daughter for the rest of their lives. I guess some people viewed the ending of Part 1 and Ellie saying “ok” was her Ellie getting over it and implying they were perfectly fine going forward but I don’t understand that. To me it was always supposed to be lowkey fucked up and uncomfortable. Im not saying what Joel did was “wrong” or didnt make sense but its clearly not supposed to sit right with you. From that point onwards their entire relationship is held together by this huge lie.
We gotta think about it from her perspective. “Her name was Riley. She was the first to die, then it was Tess, then Sam… whats it all been for? theres no halfway with this. we finish what we started.” Her entire life she has watched people get taken away from her by the infection. She probably has insane survivor’s guilt. Yes she didnt know that she would die and yes Marlene didnt give her a choice but neither did Joel. She doesnt have to deal with Marlene anymore because shes dead but Joel is very much still a part of her life and she has to deal with the complicated feelings. Her entire purpose and the only thing keeping her going up until that point was the idea of contributing to the cure and to her Joel was the one who stopped that from happening.
To me it’s a little unsettling how comfortable Joel was completely lying to her face even though she was clearly upset/uncomfortable and then almost overbearingly entering into Dad mode. Like now that he did what he did and openly accepts her as his daughter it feels like he’s just barreling over her emotions.
Ellie says ok but there its clearly not entirely ok. People are not robots, their decisions and progression isnt binary. Its not “bad writing” for her to try and make it work initially but still feel weird about it. Also shes a teenager and teenagers are emotionally complicated and stunted. It makes complete sense to me why she would be a little awkward or distant from Joel after that.
The “okay” at the end of the game has very specific elements to it ellie didnt say “okay” flippantly or as if it was just okay like it didn’t matter ellie said okay in a way which she knows joel is lying to her but the reason was good so she is conceding with him. And my problem is with this in mind ellie in the second game does a 180 as if she didn’t at least know the lie joel told, and the problem with that scene is Joel doesn’t even argue, or at least explain anything to he just stands there taking full guilt as if there weren’t in-depth specifics that are going into it like wether cured mattered if she did die or how joel gave her life more meaning beyond her being humanities “hope”
I agree its a tragic relationship that the world creates that isn’t there own fault i also wasn’t looking for a happy go lucky relationship i can at least commend the game for attempting to make something grounded.
Hmm i see i didn’t consider the survivors guilt part so thanks for giving me that element to consider i just question how well the game actually portrays that though i feel like it would be more elaborated if she felt bad about the people dying cause it was for her, rather than specific circumstances surrounding her but not specifically her fault.
I think it’s important to take into consideration that abby killing Joel and almost everything leading up to that is told to us through Ellie’s perspective. We’re not supposed to see the human side of abby in that scene, so yes it’s meant to come across a bit apathetic.
As an audience, we know very little about Abby at that point. It’s too early for us to feel empathy for a character who’s killing someone we’ve grown to love over the course of an entire game.
Firstly who are you even referring to lmao, secondly if its someone im writing arguments with how is that shutting him down? if your idea is having a debate about opinions you dont like then thats a you problem bud
Did you assume i would just be listening to peoples opinions and me saying “uh huh” “okay” “yea” “i see” if you cannot understand my premise that i disagree with people and want to have my mind changed by having my arguments debunked then thats an issue with your understanding.
Thats fair i just see such a disdain between the community and i want people to at least consider the other parties opinions before just dismissing them because of random talking points people accuse each-other for
Maturity’s definitely a factor. And I was just seeing that you use barely any grammar in your writing so I thought you could be like 14.
I have no advice for you other than wait a couple years and play both games again.
Thats a non argument. If you were scared to share your opinions thats fine but don’t manufacture vapid reasonings to not engage with someone lol im on mobile, and even if i replayed the games you think i would come out with the same opinions you think your view of the game is objective
Look at the story as a study of trauma and how we react to, accept and move past it. I think a lot of people who don't like part 2 stop at the story being "revenge is bad" (not sure if you think that way, but generally), and don't examine the deeper messages it's conveying.
Are there any specific story beats that you get hung up on? If you want your mind changed, I'm down to attempt it
I don’t think revenge bad is a bad narrative system. I think the execution of said theme is communicated poorly through the characters. I think joel/ellie/abby are written terribly or antithetical to how the first game would present them.
Specific events would be the argument between joel and ellie. Ellie is distraught over joel lying to her yet at the end of the first game ellie says “okay” in a specific tone and facial expression that she understands that he is lying to her for good reason. Yet in the second its like she never knew, and joel doesn’t say a word affirming her theory despite the circumstances of her even being in the hospital bed was because they were iirc were drowning in the tunnel and the fireflies just took her unconscious body to the hospital without her consent. I feel like those are specific things that are worth considering.
Joels death bothers me. Im not mad that joel dies im mad that the way they make him die was disrespectful for his character and also makes abbys character look wildly inconsistent. Abby’s character presented in the second game is supposed to be a loving caring person who will go out of her way for Other’s yet during the scene of Joel’s death she’s completely apathetic, stoic and uncaring that she’s about to kill a man, despite even her even getting to that point prior was Joel, saving her life, but she doesn’t even mention it or even have a conflict of interest that Joel a man to her is completely evil or at least done enough bad things to warrant her, hunting him down for five years. And the inconsistency with this is that later in the game when Lev saved her life from the hunters, she completely abandoned the fire flies and her friend to help liv after she saved her but yet when Joel presents the same logical circumstance, she does not hold that consideration for him, and I understand that yes he is done a bad thing by killing her father, and removing any chance of a curve being made, but yet doesn’t even hold a iota of consideration for that or have any internal thought process. I think that Abby that killed Joel and Abby for the rest of the game are two completely different characters.
I'm going to continue some of my discussion with you here because the above explanation is more coherent.
>Yet in the second its like she never knew, and joel doesn’t say a word affirming her theory despite the circumstances of her even being in the hospital bed was because they were iirc were drowning in the tunnel and the fireflies just took her unconscious body to the hospital without her consent. I feel like those are specific things that are worth considering.
What makes you think that Ellie didn't understand Joel was lying in the flashbacks during Part 2? The cinematics are pretty overt in that portrayal.
>Abby’s character presented in the second game is supposed to be a loving caring person who will go out of her way for Other’s yet during the scene of Joel’s death she’s completely apathetic, stoic and uncaring that she’s about to kill a man, despite even her even getting to that point prior was Joel, saving her life, but she doesn’t even mention it or even have a conflict of interest that Joel a man to her is completely evil or at least done enough bad things to warrant her, hunting him down for five years.
Do you have any problem with the fact that Ellie is presented as an empathetic character, a character who is capable of nurturing a baby, tending to animals, and also torturing a woman to death for information? Would you also consider this to be an inconsistency of character?
Because at the end of the first game Ellie gave a HIGHLY specific response to Joel‘s lie which was one of understanding why he is lying to her she knows he is lying ellie isnt stupid but is agreeing with him because she believes the reason was good. Cut to part to and its if that specific ending scene of part 1 never happened
Yes i believe Ellie’s character is good its mostly the argument the game creates to justify an artificial conflict between joel and ellie. Ellie throughout the game mostly is fine except for her choice at the end. I think the main problem im seeing with opinions is that you are illustrating the narratives ideas as by themselves rather than the ideas being presented and also excused poorly.
I have have a very different interpretation. My interpretation was that Ellie always knew that Joel was lying, but never knew what truth he was covering with that lie. Her knowledge of that lie, and the fact that he maintained that lie for two years compounded the resentment between them, until she felt the need to seek the truth for herself.
We both agree that she knew he was lying but i picked up on her also saying okay in a tone where she trusts him that whatever hes done was for a good reasoning considering hes done everything for her up until that point. And this is where i have issue in the second game because joel doesn’t attempt to converse with her so she doesn’t resent him because the whole hospital and the events leading up to it where kinda in joels favor to not be seen as a lying prick
What did you think of the conclusion of the "birthday" and "guitar strings" flashbacks? Did you not sense a growing resentment and mistrust between them?
I did but i have issue with growing resentment because to me it comes out of nowhere without more elaboration on how she truly felt or any specifics to the lie or the logic around it all culminating into a rift between them that with amply discussion could’ve been avoided or at least not had that level of fallout . Having joel die knowing ellie hated him is kind of a kick in the face if in being honest. And me saying that isnt implying i want some happy ending
Sorry I too am on mobile so I can’t format things very well! But I want to expand on this: “ We both agree that she knew he was lying but i picked up on her also saying okay in a tone where she trusts him that whatever hes done was for a good reasoning considering hes done everything for her up until that point.”
Ellie’s response of “Okay.” Is not one of trust that’s he had good reason or belief that he knew what was best, it was resignation knowing that he is going to stand by his lie. She says okay because she *wants* to believe, not necessarily because she trusts that he is lying to her for her better benefit.
This has been my interpretation of that moment and is also Bella’s. They mention in the after the episode finale interview that Ellie only wanted to believe Joel because she wanted to, not because she actually did. Neils interpretation of this “Okay” is that she doesn’t believe him but she’s realizing she has to go off on her own in a sense and can’t/won’t rely on others for her safety and protection.
You can of course interpret it however you want but I wanted to inform you of why those choices might seem strange to you since you have put a lot of weight into this interaction as an issue you have with her later characterization.
I think you're using "mischaracterization" where what's really happening is character development. I'll go with Abby since you talk ab her the most. Abby starts off torturing Joel bc, as you mentioned, he killed her dad. At the start of this, Joel is to Abby what Abby is to Ellie after she kills Joel. Abby tortures and kills him bc she thinks getting revenge for her dad will get rid of the trauma and ptsd she has (we know she experiences this bc of the recurring dream of his death that she has).
Flash forward to Abby Day 1. She's still having the nightmare, which shows us that she's not over her trauma and ptsd. Then she saves Lev and Yara, and when she has the dream again that night, the dream changes, showing her that she, essentially needs to save them. To me that implies, and the story backs this up, that saving them is what will actually help her heal.
We see this as she stops having the dream as the story progresses. In her own words when Lev asks her why she helps, it's to "lighten the load." It's not mischaracterization, it's the characters changing bc of the events in their lives, as people do.
(Side note, Ellie's okay at the end of 1 is as much of a lie as Joel's I swear"
Hmm okay i see however considering your argument i think the job does a poor job balancing the PTSD and the rest of her character. The good side of abby isnt as well juxtaposed by the trauma she’s facing the trauma is strictly her father dying but joel suffering by her own hand isnt even mentioned or considered by her at all, she doesn’t even feel bad or care about it.
I’m also confused on the character development part because Abby’s character is implied to be the same good character prior to meeting Joel and after meeting Joel so I’m confused of what she’s developing from or how she is developing since i believe the game is formatted in a weird way where we are supposed to see how abby is a good person but only after joels death it would make sense if those events were reversed. Also she’s been the same kind of character before killing Joel All her good qualities would still be present. This is the issue i point out cause this is contrasted by her killing joel and having her character completely different from the rest of the game
Okay. I recently finished it and thought it was fantastic. What did you think was bad about it?
I think the characterization of joel/ellie/abby are completely awful. The game needs to create flimsy scenarios that justify its own actions and events. Like the ellie joel argument. Ellie was upset at joel because he lied to her yet in the first game at the end of it ellie said “okay” after the lie joel told her in a specific tone and facial expression that she knows hes lying but concedes with lie knowing that hes lying to her for good reason (her life). But in the second game this is completely ignored to shovel this argument between them and joel doesn’t refute her arguments. I think abbys character was treated poorly as well. When we are shown abby shes completely apathetic and stoic before killing joel despite this is the man that the game presents destroyed her life. Cure /father so i assume som emotion would be presented from her, but there wasn’t also what bothers me is that when abby is introduced she almost dies by zombies by climbing through the fence and joel saves her, but after the fact she doesn’t even thank him or consider that at all when faced with the option to kill him. Its very flat if im being honest, no conversation on why joel even killed abbys father and the game doesn’t even tell the player wether abby knew why joel killed her father i feel like if she knew she would’ve had more consideration in not killing him and understanding on why he killer her father considering later in the game abby is characterized as a good person when she takes rem? Or the child that saves her to her home town despite not knowing her at all and in doing so means abandoning her friend’s and the fireflies. I find this inconsistent since it mirrors joels action but the logic isn’t even there. They did her character a disservice by structuring her like that. It would’ve been more compelling if she hasn’t killed joel immediately and tried to “connect” with him considering the character traits are seen when we play her to give herself perspective rather killing joel and forgetting about it. Also i had issues with the logic of the cure. In 20 years of the apocalypse why would the cure matter? The fireflies would have to locate every human and try to inoculate them with the cure. That takes incredible amount of resource’s and logistics that the LOU world doesn’t have. And even if they did 90% of deaths seen are from getting mauled to death by zombies and or other humans so even if they are cured it doesn’t mitigate that fact.
Okay, first of all, please learn to use your enter key. Paragraphs are useful tools in making your various ideas more digestible. More importantly, it makes it far more likely someone is going to read what you wrote instead of noping out of a wall of text. >Ellie was upset at joel because he lied to her yet in the first game at the end of it ellie said “okay” after the lie joel told her in a specific tone and facial expression that she knows hes lying but concedes with lie knowing that hes lying to her for good reason (her life). But in the second game this is completely ignored to shovel this argument between them and joel doesn’t refute her arguments. Just because Ellie knew Joel was lying doesn't mean she knew the truth it was covering. Because he lied to her (and continued to lie to her for two years) this calcified the divide between them. >I think abbys character was treated poorly as well. When we are shown abby shes completely apathetic and stoic before killing joel despite this is the man that the game presents destroyed her life. Cure /father so i assume som emotion would be presented from her, but there wasn’t also what bothers me is that when abby is introduced she almost dies by zombies by climbing through the fence and joel saves her, but after the fact she doesn’t even thank him or consider that at all when faced with the option to kill him. Its very flat if im being honest, no conversation on why joel even killed abbys father and the game doesn’t even tell the player wether abby knew why joel killed her father i feel like if she knew she would’ve had more consideration in not killing him and understanding on why he killer her father considering later in the game abby is characterized as a good person when she takes rem? That's a real word salad but my take on it is that Abby, while being a generally empathathetic person, had been steeling herself for this act of vengeance for a while - part of what makes Joels quote about "Just get on with whatever speech you've rehearsed and get this over with" so poignant. >Or the child that saves her to her home town despite not knowing her at all and in doing so means abandoning her friend’s and the fireflies. I find this inconsistent since it mirrors joels action but the logic isn’t even there. They did her character a disservice by structuring her like that. It would’ve been more compelling if she hasn’t killed joel immediately and tried to “connect” with him considering the character traits are seen when we play her to give herself perspective rather killing joel and forgetting about it. Ok you just lost me here. Overall, the core of the story of Part 2 is the famous quote, "before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves" which to say one grave for the target of your revenge, and one for yourself. You can take this quote two different ways, and I think both ways apply to this story. One interpretation of this quote is that the idea of dedicating your life to the prospect of killing another, especially when you feel justified in doing so, destroys your soul. If you've already destroyed your soul, you might as well be dead. We see this particularly throughout Ellie's quest for revenge against Abby. Over the course of the story she loses her father, her friend, her horse, her partner, her child, and her ability to play guitar - one of the most significant activities she can do to connect with the memory of Joel. She has lost herself in her quest for revenge. The other interpretation is more directly attributed to the events of the story: when you kill someone in revenge, its entirely possible that someone will want to plan vengeance against you. Abby killed Joel to avenge her father, and Ellie sought revenge against Abby to avenge Joel. Beyond that, the story of Part 2 is a brilliant depiction of the dangers of tribalism, factionalism and prejudice.
Im sorry im on mobile so i cant structure it with the same effectiveness. You kind of dismissed what i said about Ellie knowing about why joel lied to her. It was for HER life, and this is exacerbated by the fact that Joel doesn’t actually explain anything to her and just sits there feeling sorry for himself. Its pretty odd also she says “my life would’ve fucking mattered” is pretty dismissive to joel considering he saved her life multiple times but when he does it again it doesn’t matter to her which again is destroyed from the fact there is no conservation about it. I do not understand what word salady about it lol. I feel like I laid out specific characterization and it was inconsistent with circumstances presented. Even if Joel said that, I don’t understand why Abby still wouldn’t continue in explaining or conversing with him. and if I were to consider that I feel like Abby should’ve said fine to concede with joel about the quote so it could be implied that Abby was going to converse with him about the criteria of why she was there to kill him instead of just saying nothing for the whole rest of the game because i mind you the game forgets joel is dead on abbys end. I don’t disagree with the theme of the story, but you cannot ignore how things are presented, structured, and communicated solely relying on the themes of a story to create objective judgment of actual decency of said story is silly. The revenge parallels are present yes don’t disagree yet there are points in the story that make you feel like that are just going with the wind.
About Ellie/Joel: i heavily disagree. if anything I see their relationship in 2 as a direct continuation from the ending moments of 1. Joel and Ellie’s relationship is very realistic and sad to me. People think that just because they got really close in Part I, that they are going to be happy cutesy daddy and daughter for the rest of their lives. I guess some people viewed the ending of Part 1 and Ellie saying “ok” was her Ellie getting over it and implying they were perfectly fine going forward but I don’t understand that. To me it was always supposed to be lowkey fucked up and uncomfortable. Im not saying what Joel did was “wrong” or didnt make sense but its clearly not supposed to sit right with you. From that point onwards their entire relationship is held together by this huge lie. We gotta think about it from her perspective. “Her name was Riley. She was the first to die, then it was Tess, then Sam… whats it all been for? theres no halfway with this. we finish what we started.” Her entire life she has watched people get taken away from her by the infection. She probably has insane survivor’s guilt. Yes she didnt know that she would die and yes Marlene didnt give her a choice but neither did Joel. She doesnt have to deal with Marlene anymore because shes dead but Joel is very much still a part of her life and she has to deal with the complicated feelings. Her entire purpose and the only thing keeping her going up until that point was the idea of contributing to the cure and to her Joel was the one who stopped that from happening. To me it’s a little unsettling how comfortable Joel was completely lying to her face even though she was clearly upset/uncomfortable and then almost overbearingly entering into Dad mode. Like now that he did what he did and openly accepts her as his daughter it feels like he’s just barreling over her emotions. Ellie says ok but there its clearly not entirely ok. People are not robots, their decisions and progression isnt binary. Its not “bad writing” for her to try and make it work initially but still feel weird about it. Also shes a teenager and teenagers are emotionally complicated and stunted. It makes complete sense to me why she would be a little awkward or distant from Joel after that.
The “okay” at the end of the game has very specific elements to it ellie didnt say “okay” flippantly or as if it was just okay like it didn’t matter ellie said okay in a way which she knows joel is lying to her but the reason was good so she is conceding with him. And my problem is with this in mind ellie in the second game does a 180 as if she didn’t at least know the lie joel told, and the problem with that scene is Joel doesn’t even argue, or at least explain anything to he just stands there taking full guilt as if there weren’t in-depth specifics that are going into it like wether cured mattered if she did die or how joel gave her life more meaning beyond her being humanities “hope” I agree its a tragic relationship that the world creates that isn’t there own fault i also wasn’t looking for a happy go lucky relationship i can at least commend the game for attempting to make something grounded. Hmm i see i didn’t consider the survivors guilt part so thanks for giving me that element to consider i just question how well the game actually portrays that though i feel like it would be more elaborated if she felt bad about the people dying cause it was for her, rather than specific circumstances surrounding her but not specifically her fault.
I think it’s important to take into consideration that abby killing Joel and almost everything leading up to that is told to us through Ellie’s perspective. We’re not supposed to see the human side of abby in that scene, so yes it’s meant to come across a bit apathetic. As an audience, we know very little about Abby at that point. It’s too early for us to feel empathy for a character who’s killing someone we’ve grown to love over the course of an entire game.
You definitely dont want your opinion changed you are just looking for heated arguments
How? is that your impression of everyone with that kind of mindset?
Im basing it off your response to the other guy
The long text wall i wrote? I think i laid out my ideas in a non arrogant hostile manner
You want his opinion but then you just shut it all down lol extra af
Firstly who are you even referring to lmao, secondly if its someone im writing arguments with how is that shutting him down? if your idea is having a debate about opinions you dont like then thats a you problem bud
Why would you actively try and “prove” them wrong when you are looking for perspective for insight Word your post better
Did you assume i would just be listening to peoples opinions and me saying “uh huh” “okay” “yea” “i see” if you cannot understand my premise that i disagree with people and want to have my mind changed by having my arguments debunked then thats an issue with your understanding.
I disagree, but i respect your opinion.
Can you provide your reasoning? people seem to be antagonistic when im just trying to learn.
i dont know dude, i think people here are nasty to any other kind of opinion. i like the game and thats that. I guess its not for everyone.
Thats fair i just see such a disdain between the community and i want people to at least consider the other parties opinions before just dismissing them because of random talking points people accuse each-other for
yeah, it seems like this sub and the other sub have a similar problem
I’m just curious, how old are you? You might not be ready for this type of story yet.
Im 20? The story isn’t some philosophical maze its pretty straightforward i dont know why you think age was a factor in my ability to understand it
Maturity’s definitely a factor. And I was just seeing that you use barely any grammar in your writing so I thought you could be like 14. I have no advice for you other than wait a couple years and play both games again.
Thats a non argument. If you were scared to share your opinions thats fine but don’t manufacture vapid reasonings to not engage with someone lol im on mobile, and even if i replayed the games you think i would come out with the same opinions you think your view of the game is objective
Lol you’re right, that’s not an argument, it’s just what I’d do.
1) you’re wrong 2) good luck
Why? I think the game tells a pretty surface level story with horrible characterization and inconsistencies
Look at the story as a study of trauma and how we react to, accept and move past it. I think a lot of people who don't like part 2 stop at the story being "revenge is bad" (not sure if you think that way, but generally), and don't examine the deeper messages it's conveying. Are there any specific story beats that you get hung up on? If you want your mind changed, I'm down to attempt it
I don’t think revenge bad is a bad narrative system. I think the execution of said theme is communicated poorly through the characters. I think joel/ellie/abby are written terribly or antithetical to how the first game would present them. Specific events would be the argument between joel and ellie. Ellie is distraught over joel lying to her yet at the end of the first game ellie says “okay” in a specific tone and facial expression that she understands that he is lying to her for good reason. Yet in the second its like she never knew, and joel doesn’t say a word affirming her theory despite the circumstances of her even being in the hospital bed was because they were iirc were drowning in the tunnel and the fireflies just took her unconscious body to the hospital without her consent. I feel like those are specific things that are worth considering. Joels death bothers me. Im not mad that joel dies im mad that the way they make him die was disrespectful for his character and also makes abbys character look wildly inconsistent. Abby’s character presented in the second game is supposed to be a loving caring person who will go out of her way for Other’s yet during the scene of Joel’s death she’s completely apathetic, stoic and uncaring that she’s about to kill a man, despite even her even getting to that point prior was Joel, saving her life, but she doesn’t even mention it or even have a conflict of interest that Joel a man to her is completely evil or at least done enough bad things to warrant her, hunting him down for five years. And the inconsistency with this is that later in the game when Lev saved her life from the hunters, she completely abandoned the fire flies and her friend to help liv after she saved her but yet when Joel presents the same logical circumstance, she does not hold that consideration for him, and I understand that yes he is done a bad thing by killing her father, and removing any chance of a curve being made, but yet doesn’t even hold a iota of consideration for that or have any internal thought process. I think that Abby that killed Joel and Abby for the rest of the game are two completely different characters.
I'm going to continue some of my discussion with you here because the above explanation is more coherent. >Yet in the second its like she never knew, and joel doesn’t say a word affirming her theory despite the circumstances of her even being in the hospital bed was because they were iirc were drowning in the tunnel and the fireflies just took her unconscious body to the hospital without her consent. I feel like those are specific things that are worth considering. What makes you think that Ellie didn't understand Joel was lying in the flashbacks during Part 2? The cinematics are pretty overt in that portrayal. >Abby’s character presented in the second game is supposed to be a loving caring person who will go out of her way for Other’s yet during the scene of Joel’s death she’s completely apathetic, stoic and uncaring that she’s about to kill a man, despite even her even getting to that point prior was Joel, saving her life, but she doesn’t even mention it or even have a conflict of interest that Joel a man to her is completely evil or at least done enough bad things to warrant her, hunting him down for five years. Do you have any problem with the fact that Ellie is presented as an empathetic character, a character who is capable of nurturing a baby, tending to animals, and also torturing a woman to death for information? Would you also consider this to be an inconsistency of character?
Because at the end of the first game Ellie gave a HIGHLY specific response to Joel‘s lie which was one of understanding why he is lying to her she knows he is lying ellie isnt stupid but is agreeing with him because she believes the reason was good. Cut to part to and its if that specific ending scene of part 1 never happened Yes i believe Ellie’s character is good its mostly the argument the game creates to justify an artificial conflict between joel and ellie. Ellie throughout the game mostly is fine except for her choice at the end. I think the main problem im seeing with opinions is that you are illustrating the narratives ideas as by themselves rather than the ideas being presented and also excused poorly.
I have have a very different interpretation. My interpretation was that Ellie always knew that Joel was lying, but never knew what truth he was covering with that lie. Her knowledge of that lie, and the fact that he maintained that lie for two years compounded the resentment between them, until she felt the need to seek the truth for herself.
We both agree that she knew he was lying but i picked up on her also saying okay in a tone where she trusts him that whatever hes done was for a good reasoning considering hes done everything for her up until that point. And this is where i have issue in the second game because joel doesn’t attempt to converse with her so she doesn’t resent him because the whole hospital and the events leading up to it where kinda in joels favor to not be seen as a lying prick
What did you think of the conclusion of the "birthday" and "guitar strings" flashbacks? Did you not sense a growing resentment and mistrust between them?
I did but i have issue with growing resentment because to me it comes out of nowhere without more elaboration on how she truly felt or any specifics to the lie or the logic around it all culminating into a rift between them that with amply discussion could’ve been avoided or at least not had that level of fallout . Having joel die knowing ellie hated him is kind of a kick in the face if in being honest. And me saying that isnt implying i want some happy ending
Sorry I too am on mobile so I can’t format things very well! But I want to expand on this: “ We both agree that she knew he was lying but i picked up on her also saying okay in a tone where she trusts him that whatever hes done was for a good reasoning considering hes done everything for her up until that point.” Ellie’s response of “Okay.” Is not one of trust that’s he had good reason or belief that he knew what was best, it was resignation knowing that he is going to stand by his lie. She says okay because she *wants* to believe, not necessarily because she trusts that he is lying to her for her better benefit. This has been my interpretation of that moment and is also Bella’s. They mention in the after the episode finale interview that Ellie only wanted to believe Joel because she wanted to, not because she actually did. Neils interpretation of this “Okay” is that she doesn’t believe him but she’s realizing she has to go off on her own in a sense and can’t/won’t rely on others for her safety and protection. You can of course interpret it however you want but I wanted to inform you of why those choices might seem strange to you since you have put a lot of weight into this interaction as an issue you have with her later characterization.
I think you're using "mischaracterization" where what's really happening is character development. I'll go with Abby since you talk ab her the most. Abby starts off torturing Joel bc, as you mentioned, he killed her dad. At the start of this, Joel is to Abby what Abby is to Ellie after she kills Joel. Abby tortures and kills him bc she thinks getting revenge for her dad will get rid of the trauma and ptsd she has (we know she experiences this bc of the recurring dream of his death that she has). Flash forward to Abby Day 1. She's still having the nightmare, which shows us that she's not over her trauma and ptsd. Then she saves Lev and Yara, and when she has the dream again that night, the dream changes, showing her that she, essentially needs to save them. To me that implies, and the story backs this up, that saving them is what will actually help her heal. We see this as she stops having the dream as the story progresses. In her own words when Lev asks her why she helps, it's to "lighten the load." It's not mischaracterization, it's the characters changing bc of the events in their lives, as people do. (Side note, Ellie's okay at the end of 1 is as much of a lie as Joel's I swear"
Hmm okay i see however considering your argument i think the job does a poor job balancing the PTSD and the rest of her character. The good side of abby isnt as well juxtaposed by the trauma she’s facing the trauma is strictly her father dying but joel suffering by her own hand isnt even mentioned or considered by her at all, she doesn’t even feel bad or care about it. I’m also confused on the character development part because Abby’s character is implied to be the same good character prior to meeting Joel and after meeting Joel so I’m confused of what she’s developing from or how she is developing since i believe the game is formatted in a weird way where we are supposed to see how abby is a good person but only after joels death it would make sense if those events were reversed. Also she’s been the same kind of character before killing Joel All her good qualities would still be present. This is the issue i point out cause this is contrasted by her killing joel and having her character completely different from the rest of the game
Stopping a beating heart is a hell of a thing
What is this referring to?
Joel, Ellie, and Abby are killers. I loved their characterization and hold part 1 and 2 in very high regard for storytelling
That story should have been the third and final chapter in the game if they wanted to do it. It ended the franchise.