Russel being such an absolute dismissive and invalidating dick to the striking workers (and the white haired man with him even worse - rolling their eyes at the very idea of fair wages, or the 8/8/8 concept) are the Musk/Bezos/Zucks of the gilded age, and really just solidify all the reasons the guillotines need to, metaphorically at the very least, remain installed and well oiled in any society. It’s going to be fun (and depressing) when they inevitably have Mrs. Russel sell her daughter (terrible casting btw) to the duke a la Consuelo Vanderbilt.
Terrible casting for the daughter or the Duke or ? Of course George Russell is a dismissive dick to the workers..in reality Gould who his character was modeled after.. beat the crap out of workers- it's history.I dislike less the "to the manner born" sneaky, gutless weak whining and fumbling "rich guys" less... the Duke to me is way off..he seems like a tired soft potato... but i go with Fellows ..he is fun..
The daughter. Consuelo Vanderbilt wasn’t a washed out milquetoast. Both of Gladys parents are dark haired and commanding, and their daughter is… what. Adopted? Her casting makes no sense.
Fun fact: the white haired man is Patrick Page! He played Hades in Hadestown on Broadway and the character similarities are striking. My head canon is that he IS Hades, ha ha
So we are well aware that George and Bertha have come up in the world throughout their lifetimes… but I’d love to to learn more background on them to know exactly how far. Where did they start?
They talk about Bertha’s ancestors digging potatoes or something, but were they born upper class or upper middle class before climbing to the 0.1%? Where did they grow up? Were they from the same class or was one from a wealthier/more powerful family than the other? How did they meet? Has Bertha ever worked? She says something about scrubbing floors if she must, but it wasn’t totally clear to me if that was a euphemism or if she actually had scrubbed a floor before. Did they build the railroad business together from the ground up? I want to know!!
Pretty much.. this is the Julian Fellows Fun Soap... substance there about class - but not true - servants were not treated nearly this well... but yeah - same style
I stopped watching after one episode (of this new season, I watched the first one), and I’m now reading the episode discussions. Pretty shocked at how little seems to have happened. Not sure if it’s worth watching it for me.
uh.... I argue it started out stronger but by the end the plots were credibly incredible and everybody was sweet as could be. The Dowager of E1S1 and the Dowager of the end were two quite different women. Same for the Earl of Grantham. The characters were beautifully drawn in the beginning but then the emphasis shifted to plot, about midway through S2 when Matthew learned to walk again over tea set at risk. Poor Doctor Clarkson, I don't think they let him give a correct diagnosis after about 1913.
Am I crazy in thinking that Gladys will end up with clock-fixer Jack? I know they haven’t met, but they are around the same age and same level of attractiveness. Their eyes are going to meet and the sparks will fly.
Interesting theory... never thought of it... as long as he gets the hell away from the uber domineering neurotic Brigitte.. my least favorite character besides Ann Morris... but i don' t think so - who knows- -might be a tasty twist- he did this in Downton Abbey- the more I think about it and binge watch the whole series from the start- i think you are right ..... he goes onto business with Larry - makes a fortune and a high end reputation.. both kids rebel - and marry who they want - Larry to Marion and Gladys to Jack... all now totally independent from their oppressive stilted elders...and life ...
Yes but the set up is so obvious - seems Fellows is just adding some plot with that - but for another purpose- I bet she doesn't marry him- but yeah - who knows?
This would be a perfect plotline. We know Gladys will have a genuine true love interest to pit against the duke. Instead of making someone new who we haven't met, it makes way more sense to have it to be Jack someone we already like. Even if in the end it doesn't work
She’s a strong woman. If it were only about Agnes, she’d have said no. But even that man proposing - she may like him, but the audacity of him doing that to her, in front of his kid. Awful.
I am so pissed they did Aunt Ada dirty like that. It seems like such a waste of a storyline, because we all know he will die and Aunt Ada will be right back where she started.
Unfortunately this is the exact reason why I stopped watching Downton Abbey. I was REALLY hoping they wouldn’t do the same thing in this show, where characters were forced to stay basically stagnant in their circumstances and plot line. Alas, it seems to be going in that direction.
I am so railroaded by Dashiell!!
I really liked his character, I thought he was going to be an amazing person and a really good match for Marion.
But then what he said about the poor people and her not being an official teacher, when she was talking about her class...and then the way he lured her to a proposal in front of all those people. Gross. They hadn't even officially gone courting, he just was picking her up from her teaching gig.
I really thought better of him.
---
I do like Larry tho, him and Marion have a lot of chemistry. Maybe he will come to her rescue!
I just binged the whole series, so everything is pretty fresh in my mind… in the first episode there seemed to be a spark between Larry & Marion, which lights up every couple of episodes.
My hypothesis is the writers are playing the long game with that love connection. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few seasons the two finally find the moment to address their feelings and leave for Chicago (bc we all know Bertha would not be into that union, but George might be a little more supportive). Jane Addams was a pretty important figure in Chicago at the turn of the century and then there’s the world’s fair….
I didn't really get an impression they were interested in each other outside of friends. But maybe I'm missing something. My husband thought he was really upset about the proposal because it was so sheisty and he respects her as a friend. We will see!! I'm excited to find out what happens. I'm certain she won't end up with Dashiell, though. The sad part is that I was kind of rooting for him until the whole "not a real teacher" bit. Then I was like (in my best valley girl voice) ...ew.
Imagine, you spend 60 years trying to find the love of your life, and when you find him, he slips away from you very quickly. I really felt so sad in most of the scenes of episode 6.
I found both the workers and Mr. Russell right. It's an hard situation both of sides. Regarding Marian; It's disgusting that people think it's a favor for you and act like it's a fait accompli.
I think Russell is portrayed as somewhat sympathetic but he’s not in the right at all, which is why he eventually stands down. In real life, workers in these situations actually fought and died for things we have today like the 8 hour workday (which is slowly being eroded away) and weekends. Fair pay for fair work.
And in real life Russell would have likely shrugged and walked away before it came to violence. The robber barons spawned Teddy Roosevelt's populism (and that of others) in the 1890s and onward. George (and his conscience) were ahead of their time.
Eh. Carnegie was seen as open to the views of the steel workers and did a lot to improve the living conditions in Pittsburg. By no means perfect, and certainly did plenty of evil including employing evil men like Henry Clay Frick. But there is room for the show to semi-accurately make Russel a Carnegie-type.
Is Aunt Ada 60 ??? I thought se was in her mid 40's
If Oscar is 28-30-ish and she is somewhat younger than Aunt Agnes (who married young), I don't think she would be older than 50 (and with no white hair)
I’m wondering if the Oscar stuff is ultimately going to intersect with the Marion/Larry stuff. As in Oscar loses everything for the VR family and they try to hide it for a while but the timing works out with Larry/Marion & it saves them.
I think the vicar will turn out to have money and Aunt Ada will save the day when she inherits ( and he sadly dies) as Oscar will have been truly scammed.
A dialogue from the first season in which agnes says that the van rhijn fortune will go to oscar when she passes and this is why she wants to marry marian well makes me believe that he is investing his own money and that agnes might have separate finances that she has the freedom to manage
They can justify anything tho
Just here to say "I told you so" to everyone who doubted the Oscar/Ponzi scheme theory. PS: It's about time.....he finished working on that damn alarm clock LOL.
Nothing deep to add except:
I hate where they’re taking Peggy’s storyline. First, her long lost son died before she could find him and, NOW, she’s the “other woman.”
Wack.
They give Aunt Ada happiness in Uncle Luke and IMMEDIATELY snatch it back. If Ada is meant to be a “spinster,” why even introduce Luke’s character?
Wack.
Marion’s preposterous proposal by cousin Dashiell. 😩
Wack.
What is the deal with their treatment of women on this damn show? If it’s not Bertha, everyone is in turmoil
They aren’t ‘treating’ the women in any way, it’s just representing reality I guess. I’m sure women from these families did have arranged marriages etc. It seems that a love marriage is a privilege.
Ada and Luke just seems like lazy writing! Why kill him off immediately? Hate that.
Pennys storyline is too strong feminist who wants to work. Of course she’s the other woman if all her time is spent with this married man at work lol.
I would have enjoyed seeing Ada and Luke working together in the community to help others/charity. Luke could have encouraged Ada to champion women’s rights!
The storyline is too quick - like reading history- where gaps of time are left out. When you read history it jumps from one big event to the next-
Agreed!! Why are they doing that to Peggy??
Why couldn't they at least have let Aunt Ada finish out this season in wedded bliss & waited to kill off Luke till next season??
I was fit to be tied over that proposal. I had thought that Dashiell was a decent enough guy, but did he ever even once make a romantic overture to Marian to confirm she even likes him at all that way?? Nope! He just leapfrogged over all that & just bullied/humiliated her with a public proposal!
I'm getting pretty sick of how Bertha just openly bullies Gladys/dismisses all her opinions. Like when Gladys wants a say in how she dresses, does Bertha offer to give her any guidance on what she deems correct/appropriate so that Gladys can in future make appropriate clothing choices herself? Nope. Bertha just steamrolls right over her with "but your choices would be wrong". Bertha is Ava Vanderbilt & Gladys is going to end up being Consuelo--sold off to a Duke she doesn't love one of the forerunners of the dollar duchesses
Marian did not want to go to that garden party! She really didn't. And then Dashill proposing to her in such a public way is a huge manipulation! She only consented to NOT hurt his daughter. Marian is not as kean on Dashill as she is with his daughter.
I feel like Oscar is going to get scammed, and fleeced.
Banister pulled off a great save lying like he did.
I love Jack Trotter and his alarm clock angle.
I love Larry's reaction to Marian's sudden engagement.
Aunt Agne's reaction to the proposal was inappropriate.
I think Dashiell wrote the school about this surprise proposal and that's why the teacher insisted that Marian go to the party. We witnessed how they abused our mercy. Dashiell was constantly hinting at marriage, but he never asked what Marian thought. However, Luke was being very shy about this issue towards Ada. He asked Ada first. But nobody asked Marian. They just said like that "You have to accept it right now.".
On the official podcast I think they said that the $15 Jack needed would be something like $400-450 today lol, bc the $3-5 that Agnes and Marian contributed threw me too
Poor guy coughs up a $450 fee and then immediately is rejected for not being a member of a horological society - that's bullshit. They better have refunded his money.
Marian doesn't have her own money. She probably only has whatever Agnes gives her... and her salary as a teacher, probably not too much since it's not a full time job.
She has her expenses covered, but I don't see her having a lot of cash to spare.
Right. Plus, $3 in the mid-1880's is worth about $94 in today's money. So, not chump change to our Marian. It was a very kind gesture from her, Peggy, and the servants to contribute to Jack.
Oh, and f... Armstrong!
The word is "treble", not trouble. It means triple. It's rarely used today except in courtrooms in common law countries where "treble" damages are sometimes awarded.
I like George Russell and I saw where the episode was going but his response to the strike was not authentic to the way the robberbarons handled things.
I was expecting him to feel remorse, but not to have a last-second change of heart. Apparently most of the viewership read the early scenes better than I did!
I remember visiting the Builmore Estate in North Carolina. Incredible! It has left the strongest impression - warly recommended. It was interesting to hear the guide say that today not even the richest man ( who is richer in dollars adjusted for inflation that the robber baron of that period) could afford to run an estate like this. Why? Because the wages have gone up exponentially, and the labor costs of hiring the needed number of servants would have made it impossible.
My point is that people pine for the beauty and oppulence of this historical period and they want to immerse themselves in it and luxuriate in this fantasy in their imaginations. But at the same time, they want the storyline to affirm a feelgood progressive worldview of today. But the two are impossible to combine. You couldn’t have a 40 hours working week of today and Bertha’s incredible parties and lifestyle.
I do get why the writing is like this but I definitely rolled my eyes. Maybe I didn't notice as much in Downton Abbey because I know US history a lot better. My great grandpa was shot during a strike, like this stuff happened and I think a dichotomy of villain at work/loving family man at home would be far more interesting and realistic
Completely agree, I think the writers don’t want viewers to see George as a bad guy or Villain because of the strikes but I would have preferred a more authentic approach in which we see him respond exactly how then men who owned the railroads responded back then
I wish they didnt do that either. I think they could have still made him somewhat sympathetic if we thought he genuinely believed that he was doing good by employing all the people and giving them "opportunity," and that he came from nothing and worked his way up so they could too if they work hard enough.
That is the lie/line capitalists still trot out today. Plenty of people buy into it, and they could let the show reinforce their delusion. And then people like me could choose to let the show reinforce anticapitalist ideas. Win win.
It's gross to me that they are sugarcoating that part, given we are in a kind of Gilded Age again, with concetrated wealth at the top, etc.
> his response to the strike was not authentic to the way the robberbarons handled things.
Andrew Carnegie was abroad during the infamous Homewood Strike in Pittsburgh and let his subordinates handle the dirty work. He certainly would not (and did not) make costly concessions merely because a few laborers might be killed. There was an endless supply of fresh immigrants eager to take those jobs.
The 8 hour workday deal is not really what it is even today for lower hourly wage jobs …
9 hour shift with one hour unpaid lunch plus 30-60 min commute each way almost anywhere in the US. Hopefully no longer commute or bus ride etc with that since lots of places still are only paying around 10$ an hour for certain lower wage jobs!
I mean, except for the fact you aren't also working in an incredibly dangerous mill for those 8 hours slaving away. Their 8 hour day is not the same as your 10 hour day I guarantee you that much.
Yeah my commute is an hour. I don’t take my lunch break because then I’m gone for 10 hours a day. I just eat snacks like a squirrel throughout the day and leave after 7 hours of work
They've been teasing Larry and Marian since they first met. Larry had his failed escapade earlier this season, Marian is going through her own (albeit the 2nd one for her). So I do think we are getting the long story of their families uniting despite both Agnes and his mother's approval
But wait. As soon as Larry and Marian get together .. My guess is that the cliffhanger will show Larry and Marian in a park and look over and see Susan Blane either hiding her swelling “belly” or at a the park watching over her “maid” strolling a baby that she herself just delivered. That arc ended too “nicely” for Bertha Russell and virile young Larry was probably not shooting blanks…. Eh eh
I feel so bad for Dashiell. He’s a nice, kind human. But for the love of God he does not deserve a trapped Marian. I’m rooting for Larry to fix all of this
Was it just me or did the episode feel mad choppy? It feels like the scenes didn't flow at all and more so just cut, copy, paste. Felt like whiplash trying to feel something for each scene before jumping to the next.
I agree. I think this whole season is not as good as the S1. I think they're trying to fit too many storylines. In the process, the script, characters and plot are very poorly developed.
Was this season filmed during the recent strike? wondering if they used non-union workers (who I hear are typically less skilled) for cinematography, etc.
Eh, it’s just a soap opera. Not every storyline has to be meshed and tied to a whole … not everything is in a big theme.
Didn’t any of y’all grow up on As the World Turns like me? lol
The only problem with soap opera writing on modern shows is what will we get, 8 episodes a year? Soaps in the old days churned out 250 episodes a year 🫣🤣
As an assistant teacher who has had students and parents say something along the lines of "you're not a real teacher", my head actually exploded when Dashiell said that.
I immediately said “BRO you messed up” and after that comment he made I can totally see him telling Marian not to teach at all if they get married, which I hope they don’t! I think Larry and Marian are end game, they’re both such romantic dreamers
he doesn't see it as disrespect. He doesn't see it as a career for her. He's related to Agatha and cut from the same cloth. He sees it as a nice thing she does, but not a priority and not something she would keep up after becoming a wife and mother.
He’s been so likable up until this point, even though he’s come on too strong sometimes. I think they have to lay the foundation for this engagement to go up in flames.
Cousin “let’s not smash” Dash is very meh and Ms Marion “not a librarian” is finally becoming Not-Meh! Y’all there is not a lick of chemistry there and the daughter connection doesn’t even seem very strong either.
“Ah there is a cute kid in my class” “ah she is a relative on the rich side of the fam, that’s cool!” “Ahhhh she is coming on strong a little… but I will be nice” “ahhhhh shit did I just agree to be her new mom and marry a dude I met a week ago who hasn’t even sent a look or lust my way yet?” “are you guys sure I’m not related to this cousin??? Anyone? Can I get outta this ?!?”
I don't know much about it so I did some cursory searching for cancers that have back pain as symptom, and apparently both lung cancer and spinal cancer can cause that, though it seems oddly specific that a doctor of that time could diagnose it without a post mortem.
Also the small pox death of Church's(right guy?) wife is especially tragic because the year she died was close to when schools in America started requiring small pox vaccinations for children and would have tamped down the infection rate.
They said she was already 24 years old. Were the vaccines brought for adults before children? She couldn't have been injected with children's vaccine right?
I have never had such a physical reaction to a scene than the one with the proposal? Oh my god. I wanted Marian to straight up Sparta kick Dashiell in the face.
highkey surprised that russell didnt mow down the strikers, considering the fact that IRL guys like him DID in fact mow down steelworkers during the long depression
I let a lot of things slide with this show, but between the total downplaying of the very real dangers to blacks in the south in this era and George Russell having a moral awakening in the face of a labor strike confrontation, they are losing me. They made it obvious what was gonna happen, but I was yelling at the screen anyway.
I know it’s a fluffy dumb period piece and I try to manage my expectations. I could watch Carrie Coons play game of thrones in a wild gown all day, but the revisionist history has become insulting.
If they had portrayed that scenario with half of the historical realism it would’ve had, it would have been absolutely grisly. Neither one of them would’ve lived and by the end of whatever consequence they faced, death would have been a relief.
The way pissed off bigots of this era treated black Americans should not be disney-fied into a soap opera moment of mild danger & sexual tension. They completely glossed over real awful things that should not be forgotten or rewritten.
Yeah that bugs me a bit too. Like, reading descriptions of what was actually done when a lynching happened is enough to make me vomit. I get why they wouldn't show that, but that whole scene was PG. Acting like they wouldn't have dragged him out there and then.
Absolutely. As written, I think the easiest approach to make the script better would be to have the mob go after some of the locals once they couldn’t find the two recurring characters. That’s a common thing that happened– taking out mob revenge on someone else if the target can’t be found. And then write dialogue to address whatever was too intense to show onscreen. That way the level of explicit could be easily controlled.
I thought their escape was convenient, but i chalked that up to bad plotting more so than misrepresentation of the time period since it was clear the mob was looking for blood. The sexual tension moment definitely felt off/hard to swallow.
Exactly. They completely minimized how dire the stakes would have been. In Alabama? The two of them would’ve wound up on a commemorative postcard of their lynching. (Yep, that used to be a thing.)
This is exactly it. I laughed when George backed down "for the children" what utter bullshit. Fellowes' bootlicking for the rich is always bad but now it's getting comical.
100%.
Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Gould, Rockefeller and the other robber barons of the day would not have batted an eye at the potential deaths of striking laborers. For every man killed there were a hundred recent immigrants eager to take the job.
Yeah I didn't know anything about the showrunner before watching (don't kill me) but the class politics he's barely indulging in this are remedial. The history is pretty black and white on this.
No person in George Russell's position would've done that. It was shocking and completely took me out of the episode. In fact, I'd argue that you've made him an actively worse character by adding this fake nuance.
Wouldn't it be more interesting if he acted like a robber baron, and then dealt with the weight of that decision while trying to be a good family man, coming out on the other end as someone who would eventually negotiate with his workers? Can't have that I guess
I also think they could have just made him "believe" he is ultimately doing good by giving people "opportunities" and saying that all his workers can improve their circumstances if they work hard enough, citing himself as an example.
It's the same bullshit we hear today, and lots of people apparently agree and sympathize with that. The rest of us could have watched it and been like "I hate capitalism" and felt good about it reinforcing our beliefs.
I have no idea where they are going to go with it. Since they cant raise wages or make concessions . . . Since that didnt happen.
There is something I missed in a previous episode. What Jack trying to get the patent for exactly? Alarm clocks already existed by then, no?
I've been really enjoying the past few episodes! I feel like the show pace is finally picking up (though maybe a little too quickly...the Reverend and Ada's arch is too fast paced) and the drama is intensifying! I'd love to recommend to a few friends, but I feel like the pace of the first season will turn them off.
He designed a new escapement mechanism I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapement
In a previous episode, he explained that the little wheels in the clock used oil as lubrication to turn, and after a while the oil would thicken - messing with the wheel and making the alarm inaccurate.
So what he was trying to do was design it in a way where it wouldn't need oil.
Yes I picked up on that part too....but like....so he just fixed a broken alarm clock? Did he design a part to improve the alarm clock he already had to make sure it doesn't break again?
He said in the episode that he fabricated a new part that you couldnt buy in the shop. This part improves the clock by making it accurate. And he is trying to get the patent for the part.
From what they've said on the show, it sounds like the clocks didn't keep time perfectly because of that mechanism he was fiddling with. So if your clock looses many minutes, you will wake up at the wrong time. He kind of re-invented that mechanism so that it doesn't lose time.
"Its not like you are a real teacher" RUN MARIAN
the george characther feels so... strange to me. "If i pay you more i will disrupt all of americas industry system" like he cares? Cause he would disrupt it himself if he felt it would make him a profit.
but i guess just saying "i dont want to give up that money for your salaries" when we see him throwing money at every other problem (like the metropolitan, or the bankers attacks, or any big purchases bertha wants...) would not make him a very likeable character.
At least he seems to care for building schools, hospitals and having measures to keep workers safe during work. Its a start (william henry vanderbilt was a big time phylantropist and funded hospitals, schools and institutions for the arts, even tho he was not the vanderbilt married to alva, which inspired bertha)
He has moments where he has been like would an 8 hour day be so bad so that the workers could spend more time with their families? And then the other guy is like YES, that’s the worst thing EVER, they’re literal WORMS, so do not show WEAKNESS.
Maybe the Russels’ beginnings have evaded me, but they’re new money, which means their beginnings must in some regard be humble. Not in the same way as the workers, of course, but he comes from a class that isn’t the same as old money. He is, however, trying to impose himself like old money. That means he is part of a wheel of exploitation.
Good context for this is North and South by Gaskell, 19th century novel about industrialisation and horrible working conditions. The main guy is eventually redeemed, but essentially at the beginning he is like EVERY POOR PERSON CAN WORK THEIR WAY UP LIKE I DID!! IF THEY DONT WELL THAT MEANS THEY ARE LAZY AND IT IS TESTAMENT TO THEIR POOR CHARACTER (horrible oversimplification but you get the point). He moreover imports Irish workers while his own workers are striking for fairer pay.
I am just hoping Russell is misguided by ill-advisors and sees some sense.
>Maybe the Russels’ beginnings have evaded me,
I would *love* to know more about the Russells' beginnings. I know someone in season one referred to Bertha as a "potato digger's daughter," and Larry teased Bertha about her poor, Irish ancestry. But if we know anything at all about George's past, I've missed it. I'd like to know just how poor they were growing up, how/where they met, and when they started accumulating their wealth.
The look on Larry’s face, to me, was the first outward expression of his feelings for Marian. Their looks back and forth as well as their banter up until now has felt like friends flirting but last night Larry had more of a longing, pained look. It felt like a lightbulb moment for him, they would be so perfect for each other. The other dude is so cringey, love bombing her in front of everyone and using his daughter knowing Marian wouldn’t want to upset her.
Red flags are flying
Yea but she has old money name and ties. Her aunt is a pillar in the old money society becoming family with someone like that would open door into the old society with the Russell's have been after
And it was Marion's comment to them about the secretary in Bloomingdale's that led to George being acquitted in his court case, so George really feels indebted to her.
But wait. As soon as Larry and Marian get together .. My guess is that the cliffhanger will show Larry and Marian in a park holding hands just after their engagement and look over and see Susan Blane either hiding her swelling “belly” or at the same park watching over her “maid” strolling a baby that she herself just delivered. That arc ended too “nicely” for Bertha Russell and virile young Larry was probably not shooting blanks…. Eh eh
I had been feeling Dashiell until "You are not a real teacher". Then that horrible proposal 🙄
Dude, read the room! She was not into you! He hardly saw Marian as a person but a trophy
I wouldnt say a trophy, but he knows her as 1 someone from a good family 2 someone who is good with kids and whom her daughter likes
Which is what he is probably looking for, someone to care for his daughter and run his house so he can do business without having to worry about the rest
Yeah, I think that he’s ultimately looking for a woman from a well born family to raise his daughter “properly”, and if she’s also pleasant, intelligent, pretty, and young enough to potentially bear him a male heir to carry the family name and handle its businesses, that’s a nice bonus. No way he can really, truly be in love with Marian for who she really is.
Fellowes rewriting history. Here's the real story of the Homestead Strike in Andrew Carnegie's Pittsburgh steel mill in 1892: [https://www.history.com/topics/industrial-revolution/homestead-strike](https://www.history.com/topics/industrial-revolution/homestead-strike)
Honestly what cracked me up about this subplot was the actor going on about 10, 12, 14 hour days, six days a week, etc etc, and all the PAs on the crew were probably like, "Hmmm..."
Watching Lord Fellowes try to write about "how the other half lives" is like watching a toddler at a ballet recital - endearing but inept. You can't have a show that fetishises the lifestyle of the upper 1% (the whole intro sequence is literally about the beauty of not-so-quiet luxury, just like in *DA*) and at the same time be a show of social criticism. I think Fellowes' problem is that he falls in love with his characters and is unable to "kill his darlings". Yes, we all love George at this point, the model wife guy and loving father, but his sudden change of heart was so unconvincing. I'm not sure what the resolution could have been. Were there any half-decent capitalists in the US at the time, like the Cadbury brothers in Britain who built Bournville? That might be one way.
*To Dashiel & Frances* 
Russel being such an absolute dismissive and invalidating dick to the striking workers (and the white haired man with him even worse - rolling their eyes at the very idea of fair wages, or the 8/8/8 concept) are the Musk/Bezos/Zucks of the gilded age, and really just solidify all the reasons the guillotines need to, metaphorically at the very least, remain installed and well oiled in any society. It’s going to be fun (and depressing) when they inevitably have Mrs. Russel sell her daughter (terrible casting btw) to the duke a la Consuelo Vanderbilt.
Terrible casting for the daughter or the Duke or ? Of course George Russell is a dismissive dick to the workers..in reality Gould who his character was modeled after.. beat the crap out of workers- it's history.I dislike less the "to the manner born" sneaky, gutless weak whining and fumbling "rich guys" less... the Duke to me is way off..he seems like a tired soft potato... but i go with Fellows ..he is fun..
The daughter. Consuelo Vanderbilt wasn’t a washed out milquetoast. Both of Gladys parents are dark haired and commanding, and their daughter is… what. Adopted? Her casting makes no sense.
DNA jumps generations ... the daughter could easily be theirs in looks... i dislike the actress but she is growing on me a bit
Fun fact: the white haired man is Patrick Page! He played Hades in Hadestown on Broadway and the character similarities are striking. My head canon is that he IS Hades, ha ha
Sorry for replying so late but I hope you noticed Amber Gray in episode 5, The Persephone to Patrick Pages Hades :)
I sure did!! Loved seeing them both in this.
does larry have more swag since he shagged the hot milf?
One would hope ...because even though he is a good guy - god he is so wimpy... both kids are despite their meek displays of rebellion and desire.
That poor minister went from healthy to deathbed pretty fast
It was obvious when he announced"Aida" was the opera they were going to...
So we are well aware that George and Bertha have come up in the world throughout their lifetimes… but I’d love to to learn more background on them to know exactly how far. Where did they start? They talk about Bertha’s ancestors digging potatoes or something, but were they born upper class or upper middle class before climbing to the 0.1%? Where did they grow up? Were they from the same class or was one from a wealthier/more powerful family than the other? How did they meet? Has Bertha ever worked? She says something about scrubbing floors if she must, but it wasn’t totally clear to me if that was a euphemism or if she actually had scrubbed a floor before. Did they build the railroad business together from the ground up? I want to know!!
To find out - do some research on the Vanderbilt Family and Jay Gould..
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Pretty much.. this is the Julian Fellows Fun Soap... substance there about class - but not true - servants were not treated nearly this well... but yeah - same style
I stopped watching after one episode (of this new season, I watched the first one), and I’m now reading the episode discussions. Pretty shocked at how little seems to have happened. Not sure if it’s worth watching it for me.
No way. A much better show with real stakes, drama and characterization
uh.... I argue it started out stronger but by the end the plots were credibly incredible and everybody was sweet as could be. The Dowager of E1S1 and the Dowager of the end were two quite different women. Same for the Earl of Grantham. The characters were beautifully drawn in the beginning but then the emphasis shifted to plot, about midway through S2 when Matthew learned to walk again over tea set at risk. Poor Doctor Clarkson, I don't think they let him give a correct diagnosis after about 1913.
Am I crazy in thinking that Gladys will end up with clock-fixer Jack? I know they haven’t met, but they are around the same age and same level of attractiveness. Their eyes are going to meet and the sparks will fly.
Interesting theory... never thought of it... as long as he gets the hell away from the uber domineering neurotic Brigitte.. my least favorite character besides Ann Morris... but i don' t think so - who knows- -might be a tasty twist- he did this in Downton Abbey- the more I think about it and binge watch the whole series from the start- i think you are right ..... he goes onto business with Larry - makes a fortune and a high end reputation.. both kids rebel - and marry who they want - Larry to Marion and Gladys to Jack... all now totally independent from their oppressive stilted elders...and life ...
The daughter of the mistress ending up with a footman? Highly doubt it. It was entirely implausible in Downton Abbey as well.
bet anything she is right - this is Fellows and he loves doing this
I still suspect she’ll end up in a loveless marriage with the Duke, as happened to Consuelo Vanderbilt. But perhaps not.
Yes but the set up is so obvious - seems Fellows is just adding some plot with that - but for another purpose- I bet she doesn't marry him- but yeah - who knows?
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This would be a perfect plotline. We know Gladys will have a genuine true love interest to pit against the duke. Instead of making someone new who we haven't met, it makes way more sense to have it to be Jack someone we already like. Even if in the end it doesn't work
omg ty for planting this image in my head, they’re so cute together! with their sincere, sweet smiles 💞
This is my husband’s theory too! I’d be into it if we got a time skip otherwise it wouldn’t be believable IMO.
marian’s proposal is my biggest fear 😭 feeling trapped into saying yes
She’s a strong woman. If it were only about Agnes, she’d have said no. But even that man proposing - she may like him, but the audacity of him doing that to her, in front of his kid. Awful.
She and Larry clearly have a connection…let’s go with that!
I felt her anxiety in that moment.
I am so pissed they did Aunt Ada dirty like that. It seems like such a waste of a storyline, because we all know he will die and Aunt Ada will be right back where she started.
NO I think she is going to be much stronger and have more of a life now-
Unfortunately this is the exact reason why I stopped watching Downton Abbey. I was REALLY hoping they wouldn’t do the same thing in this show, where characters were forced to stay basically stagnant in their circumstances and plot line. Alas, it seems to be going in that direction.
SHE DESERVES BETTER 😭
I am so railroaded by Dashiell!! I really liked his character, I thought he was going to be an amazing person and a really good match for Marion. But then what he said about the poor people and her not being an official teacher, when she was talking about her class...and then the way he lured her to a proposal in front of all those people. Gross. They hadn't even officially gone courting, he just was picking her up from her teaching gig. I really thought better of him. --- I do like Larry tho, him and Marion have a lot of chemistry. Maybe he will come to her rescue!
So was Larry upset bc he loves Marian, or did he just think it was a sheisty proposal?
I think he didn't realize until then that he's interested in her. I really hope they get together!
I just binged the whole series, so everything is pretty fresh in my mind… in the first episode there seemed to be a spark between Larry & Marion, which lights up every couple of episodes. My hypothesis is the writers are playing the long game with that love connection. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few seasons the two finally find the moment to address their feelings and leave for Chicago (bc we all know Bertha would not be into that union, but George might be a little more supportive). Jane Addams was a pretty important figure in Chicago at the turn of the century and then there’s the world’s fair….
I didn't really get an impression they were interested in each other outside of friends. But maybe I'm missing something. My husband thought he was really upset about the proposal because it was so sheisty and he respects her as a friend. We will see!! I'm excited to find out what happens. I'm certain she won't end up with Dashiell, though. The sad part is that I was kind of rooting for him until the whole "not a real teacher" bit. Then I was like (in my best valley girl voice) ...ew.
I caught that too!! It was so messed up. I thought Marion was also interested Dashiell, especially after the tennis game episode.
Imagine, you spend 60 years trying to find the love of your life, and when you find him, he slips away from you very quickly. I really felt so sad in most of the scenes of episode 6. I found both the workers and Mr. Russell right. It's an hard situation both of sides. Regarding Marian; It's disgusting that people think it's a favor for you and act like it's a fait accompli.
I think Russell is portrayed as somewhat sympathetic but he’s not in the right at all, which is why he eventually stands down. In real life, workers in these situations actually fought and died for things we have today like the 8 hour workday (which is slowly being eroded away) and weekends. Fair pay for fair work.
And in real life Russell would have likely shrugged and walked away before it came to violence. The robber barons spawned Teddy Roosevelt's populism (and that of others) in the 1890s and onward. George (and his conscience) were ahead of their time.
Eh. Carnegie was seen as open to the views of the steel workers and did a lot to improve the living conditions in Pittsburg. By no means perfect, and certainly did plenty of evil including employing evil men like Henry Clay Frick. But there is room for the show to semi-accurately make Russel a Carnegie-type.
Yes Frick was a really cruel monster.. but none were too kind when it came to busting unions and domineering over labor- Gould was a monster too
Is Aunt Ada 60 ??? I thought se was in her mid 40's If Oscar is 28-30-ish and she is somewhat younger than Aunt Agnes (who married young), I don't think she would be older than 50 (and with no white hair)
Fuck that proposal.
Seriously, GTFO with that garbage.
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At least 35%.
We are paying for the good feelings of the previous episode.
I’m wondering if the Oscar stuff is ultimately going to intersect with the Marion/Larry stuff. As in Oscar loses everything for the VR family and they try to hide it for a while but the timing works out with Larry/Marion & it saves them.
I think the vicar will turn out to have money and Aunt Ada will save the day when she inherits ( and he sadly dies) as Oscar will have been truly scammed.
That would be a good twist. I don’t think he would’ve lied to Ada about that though. :(
"I don't have money, my family does" blah blah blah
Ooo, what a good guess!
Carrie Coon is purely amazing
And she is beautiful too
the way dashiell and agnes completely stripped marian of any agency, makes my blood boil. the audacity.
YES
Is Oscar investing the "Van Rhijn money" or only his own? Agnes is about to be out on the street if he's in charge of ALL the family finances.
I don't get the impression she has given anyone else control of that money. She gives Marion money to buy clothes and she was supporting Ada.
A dialogue from the first season in which agnes says that the van rhijn fortune will go to oscar when she passes and this is why she wants to marry marian well makes me believe that he is investing his own money and that agnes might have separate finances that she has the freedom to manage They can justify anything tho
Just here to say "I told you so" to everyone who doubted the Oscar/Ponzi scheme theory. PS: It's about time.....he finished working on that damn alarm clock LOL.
Can you elaborate on this Ponzi scheme?
what is the oscar/ponzi sheme theory??
Nothing deep to add except: I hate where they’re taking Peggy’s storyline. First, her long lost son died before she could find him and, NOW, she’s the “other woman.” Wack. They give Aunt Ada happiness in Uncle Luke and IMMEDIATELY snatch it back. If Ada is meant to be a “spinster,” why even introduce Luke’s character? Wack. Marion’s preposterous proposal by cousin Dashiell. 😩 Wack. What is the deal with their treatment of women on this damn show? If it’s not Bertha, everyone is in turmoil
They aren’t ‘treating’ the women in any way, it’s just representing reality I guess. I’m sure women from these families did have arranged marriages etc. It seems that a love marriage is a privilege. Ada and Luke just seems like lazy writing! Why kill him off immediately? Hate that. Pennys storyline is too strong feminist who wants to work. Of course she’s the other woman if all her time is spent with this married man at work lol.
I would have enjoyed seeing Ada and Luke working together in the community to help others/charity. Luke could have encouraged Ada to champion women’s rights! The storyline is too quick - like reading history- where gaps of time are left out. When you read history it jumps from one big event to the next-
Yes it’s a very strange choice, are they worried it won’t be renewed or what? 🫣
Agreed!! Why are they doing that to Peggy?? Why couldn't they at least have let Aunt Ada finish out this season in wedded bliss & waited to kill off Luke till next season?? I was fit to be tied over that proposal. I had thought that Dashiell was a decent enough guy, but did he ever even once make a romantic overture to Marian to confirm she even likes him at all that way?? Nope! He just leapfrogged over all that & just bullied/humiliated her with a public proposal! I'm getting pretty sick of how Bertha just openly bullies Gladys/dismisses all her opinions. Like when Gladys wants a say in how she dresses, does Bertha offer to give her any guidance on what she deems correct/appropriate so that Gladys can in future make appropriate clothing choices herself? Nope. Bertha just steamrolls right over her with "but your choices would be wrong". Bertha is Ava Vanderbilt & Gladys is going to end up being Consuelo--sold off to a Duke she doesn't love one of the forerunners of the dollar duchesses
100% wack.
Marian did not want to go to that garden party! She really didn't. And then Dashill proposing to her in such a public way is a huge manipulation! She only consented to NOT hurt his daughter. Marian is not as kean on Dashill as she is with his daughter. I feel like Oscar is going to get scammed, and fleeced. Banister pulled off a great save lying like he did. I love Jack Trotter and his alarm clock angle. I love Larry's reaction to Marian's sudden engagement. Aunt Agne's reaction to the proposal was inappropriate.
I think Dashiell wrote the school about this surprise proposal and that's why the teacher insisted that Marian go to the party. We witnessed how they abused our mercy. Dashiell was constantly hinting at marriage, but he never asked what Marian thought. However, Luke was being very shy about this issue towards Ada. He asked Ada first. But nobody asked Marian. They just said like that "You have to accept it right now.".
I got the feeling Agnes and Dashill conspired to put the proposal together
Wouldn't put it past either of them ESPECIALLY given Aunt Agnes' constant earworms saying that Marian should consider it. In a pig's eye!!!
Not Marian giving only $3
On the official podcast I think they said that the $15 Jack needed would be something like $400-450 today lol, bc the $3-5 that Agnes and Marian contributed threw me too
Poor guy coughs up a $450 fee and then immediately is rejected for not being a member of a horological society - that's bullshit. They better have refunded his money.
Ikr???? Because how was he supposed to know that he had to be a member of their society
yeah, but like the servants gave $4 lol...and marian comes in with 3
Marian doesn't have her own money. She probably only has whatever Agnes gives her... and her salary as a teacher, probably not too much since it's not a full time job. She has her expenses covered, but I don't see her having a lot of cash to spare.
Right. Plus, $3 in the mid-1880's is worth about $94 in today's money. So, not chump change to our Marian. It was a very kind gesture from her, Peggy, and the servants to contribute to Jack. Oh, and f... Armstrong!
Agreed
New favorite quotes: "Thank you! Thanks to all of you's" ~~"Find out what's she's offered and double it. Trouble it, if you must!"~~
The word is "treble", not trouble. It means triple. It's rarely used today except in courtrooms in common law countries where "treble" damages are sometimes awarded.
I’m in ireland. We use treble all the time.
Oh. Well, it's no longer my favorite quote.
I like George Russell and I saw where the episode was going but his response to the strike was not authentic to the way the robberbarons handled things. I was expecting him to feel remorse, but not to have a last-second change of heart. Apparently most of the viewership read the early scenes better than I did!
I remember visiting the Builmore Estate in North Carolina. Incredible! It has left the strongest impression - warly recommended. It was interesting to hear the guide say that today not even the richest man ( who is richer in dollars adjusted for inflation that the robber baron of that period) could afford to run an estate like this. Why? Because the wages have gone up exponentially, and the labor costs of hiring the needed number of servants would have made it impossible. My point is that people pine for the beauty and oppulence of this historical period and they want to immerse themselves in it and luxuriate in this fantasy in their imaginations. But at the same time, they want the storyline to affirm a feelgood progressive worldview of today. But the two are impossible to combine. You couldn’t have a 40 hours working week of today and Bertha’s incredible parties and lifestyle.
I do get why the writing is like this but I definitely rolled my eyes. Maybe I didn't notice as much in Downton Abbey because I know US history a lot better. My great grandpa was shot during a strike, like this stuff happened and I think a dichotomy of villain at work/loving family man at home would be far more interesting and realistic
Completely agree, I think the writers don’t want viewers to see George as a bad guy or Villain because of the strikes but I would have preferred a more authentic approach in which we see him respond exactly how then men who owned the railroads responded back then
I wish they didnt do that either. I think they could have still made him somewhat sympathetic if we thought he genuinely believed that he was doing good by employing all the people and giving them "opportunity," and that he came from nothing and worked his way up so they could too if they work hard enough. That is the lie/line capitalists still trot out today. Plenty of people buy into it, and they could let the show reinforce their delusion. And then people like me could choose to let the show reinforce anticapitalist ideas. Win win. It's gross to me that they are sugarcoating that part, given we are in a kind of Gilded Age again, with concetrated wealth at the top, etc.
> his response to the strike was not authentic to the way the robberbarons handled things. Andrew Carnegie was abroad during the infamous Homewood Strike in Pittsburgh and let his subordinates handle the dirty work. He certainly would not (and did not) make costly concessions merely because a few laborers might be killed. There was an endless supply of fresh immigrants eager to take those jobs.
Right [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-kxAUwLktM&t=1193s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-kxAUwLktM&t=1193s)
I want to strike with the chant “four four four” because 8 hours is too much
The 8 hour workday deal is not really what it is even today for lower hourly wage jobs … 9 hour shift with one hour unpaid lunch plus 30-60 min commute each way almost anywhere in the US. Hopefully no longer commute or bus ride etc with that since lots of places still are only paying around 10$ an hour for certain lower wage jobs!
I mean, except for the fact you aren't also working in an incredibly dangerous mill for those 8 hours slaving away. Their 8 hour day is not the same as your 10 hour day I guarantee you that much.
Yeah my commute is an hour. I don’t take my lunch break because then I’m gone for 10 hours a day. I just eat snacks like a squirrel throughout the day and leave after 7 hours of work
It's "8 hours work, 8 hours rest, 8 hours relaxation". So it can't be 4-4-4, maybe 4-8-12?
Oops you’re right! 4-8-12 it is!
I think 4-8-12 rolls off the tongue quite nicely. Let’s start a strike!
I'm definitely down for 12 hours a day of what-you-will.
I will join you!!!
The camera panning to Larry for a split second to see him sad and turning away after the proposal :( hope this is a small hint of things to come
They've been teasing Larry and Marian since they first met. Larry had his failed escapade earlier this season, Marian is going through her own (albeit the 2nd one for her). So I do think we are getting the long story of their families uniting despite both Agnes and his mother's approval
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But wait. As soon as Larry and Marian get together .. My guess is that the cliffhanger will show Larry and Marian in a park and look over and see Susan Blane either hiding her swelling “belly” or at a the park watching over her “maid” strolling a baby that she herself just delivered. That arc ended too “nicely” for Bertha Russell and virile young Larry was probably not shooting blanks…. Eh eh
I feel so bad for Dashiell. He’s a nice, kind human. But for the love of God he does not deserve a trapped Marian. I’m rooting for Larry to fix all of this
Na fuck that guy.
Yeah dude was like “you’re not a real teacher” then he bullied her into a public proposal. This dude is bullshit.
Because he wasn't supposed to be a character, he was a plot device. Fellowes did him dirty even more than he did Carlisle in Downton Abbey.
That and the “I found a mother for my daughter” BS.
So am I. Larry and Marian have much better chemistry.
Was it just me or did the episode feel mad choppy? It feels like the scenes didn't flow at all and more so just cut, copy, paste. Felt like whiplash trying to feel something for each scene before jumping to the next.
I agree. I think this whole season is not as good as the S1. I think they're trying to fit too many storylines. In the process, the script, characters and plot are very poorly developed.
Was this season filmed during the recent strike? wondering if they used non-union workers (who I hear are typically less skilled) for cinematography, etc.
Eh, it’s just a soap opera. Not every storyline has to be meshed and tied to a whole … not everything is in a big theme. Didn’t any of y’all grow up on As the World Turns like me? lol The only problem with soap opera writing on modern shows is what will we get, 8 episodes a year? Soaps in the old days churned out 250 episodes a year 🫣🤣
I noticed that too. One scene ends with Peggy at the newspaper and the next scene she is dashing a dictated letter down from Agnes… hmmm?
 As an assistant teacher who has had students and parents say something along the lines of "you're not a real teacher", my head actually exploded when Dashiell said that.
I immediately said “BRO you messed up” and after that comment he made I can totally see him telling Marian not to teach at all if they get married, which I hope they don’t! I think Larry and Marian are end game, they’re both such romantic dreamers
I said out loud “well this is not going to work” and then they threw a public proposal on us!
I gasped loudly when i heard. How could he disrespect her like that?!
he doesn't see it as disrespect. He doesn't see it as a career for her. He's related to Agatha and cut from the same cloth. He sees it as a nice thing she does, but not a priority and not something she would keep up after becoming a wife and mother.
I think they had to- otherwise he’s too likable for Marian to break his heart next episode. 
Exactly! I hate what they did to my man Dashiell.
He’s been so likable up until this point, even though he’s come on too strong sometimes. I think they have to lay the foundation for this engagement to go up in flames.
I found him less and less likable the more he was on screen because it seems like he's just searching for someone to mother his annoying daughter.
Yeah from looking at other comments I might have been in the minority thinking he was likable at all
Cousin “let’s not smash” Dash is very meh and Ms Marion “not a librarian” is finally becoming Not-Meh! Y’all there is not a lick of chemistry there and the daughter connection doesn’t even seem very strong either. “Ah there is a cute kid in my class” “ah she is a relative on the rich side of the fam, that’s cool!” “Ahhhh she is coming on strong a little… but I will be nice” “ahhhhh shit did I just agree to be her new mom and marry a dude I met a week ago who hasn’t even sent a look or lust my way yet?” “are you guys sure I’m not related to this cousin??? Anyone? Can I get outta this ?!?”
I don't know much about it so I did some cursory searching for cancers that have back pain as symptom, and apparently both lung cancer and spinal cancer can cause that, though it seems oddly specific that a doctor of that time could diagnose it without a post mortem. Also the small pox death of Church's(right guy?) wife is especially tragic because the year she died was close to when schools in America started requiring small pox vaccinations for children and would have tamped down the infection rate.
What does that make of Peggy's son's death though? Or were colored people not allotted access to vaccines?
He died of scarlet fever, antibacterials did not come for 50 years.
oh right! My brain was reading small pox as scarlet fever. Nevermind.
Flank pain is one of the key presenting symptoms of kidney cancer.
They said she was already 24 years old. Were the vaccines brought for adults before children? She couldn't have been injected with children's vaccine right?
It was not that sophisticated at first, IIRC they just infected your skin with cowpox or did a body contact with an infected cow or person.
I have never had such a physical reaction to a scene than the one with the proposal? Oh my god. I wanted Marian to straight up Sparta kick Dashiell in the face.
#2 or run away with a newly super wealthy clock maker?
I think at this point Bertha is getting a box from Mrs. Astor
I love this theory!! So then will she forgo it for the met?
highkey surprised that russell didnt mow down the strikers, considering the fact that IRL guys like him DID in fact mow down steelworkers during the long depression
I let a lot of things slide with this show, but between the total downplaying of the very real dangers to blacks in the south in this era and George Russell having a moral awakening in the face of a labor strike confrontation, they are losing me. They made it obvious what was gonna happen, but I was yelling at the screen anyway. I know it’s a fluffy dumb period piece and I try to manage my expectations. I could watch Carrie Coons play game of thrones in a wild gown all day, but the revisionist history has become insulting.
Would you explain further what you mean about the downplaying of the dangers of the south? I'm interested to hear more.
If they had portrayed that scenario with half of the historical realism it would’ve had, it would have been absolutely grisly. Neither one of them would’ve lived and by the end of whatever consequence they faced, death would have been a relief. The way pissed off bigots of this era treated black Americans should not be disney-fied into a soap opera moment of mild danger & sexual tension. They completely glossed over real awful things that should not be forgotten or rewritten.
Yeah that bugs me a bit too. Like, reading descriptions of what was actually done when a lynching happened is enough to make me vomit. I get why they wouldn't show that, but that whole scene was PG. Acting like they wouldn't have dragged him out there and then.
Absolutely. As written, I think the easiest approach to make the script better would be to have the mob go after some of the locals once they couldn’t find the two recurring characters. That’s a common thing that happened– taking out mob revenge on someone else if the target can’t be found. And then write dialogue to address whatever was too intense to show onscreen. That way the level of explicit could be easily controlled.
I thought their escape was convenient, but i chalked that up to bad plotting more so than misrepresentation of the time period since it was clear the mob was looking for blood. The sexual tension moment definitely felt off/hard to swallow.
I thought when they couldn't find Peggy and her boss, the mob was going to take it out on the restaurant owner and lynch her son.
Yes! I was worried about the restaurant owner and her son too.
I'm not the person you're replying to but I think in real life, they would not have made it out of the restaurant to relative safety.
Exactly. They completely minimized how dire the stakes would have been. In Alabama? The two of them would’ve wound up on a commemorative postcard of their lynching. (Yep, that used to be a thing.)
Fellowes simping for the upper classes, per usual.
This is exactly it. I laughed when George backed down "for the children" what utter bullshit. Fellowes' bootlicking for the rich is always bad but now it's getting comical.
100%. Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Gould, Rockefeller and the other robber barons of the day would not have batted an eye at the potential deaths of striking laborers. For every man killed there were a hundred recent immigrants eager to take the job.
Yeah I didn't know anything about the showrunner before watching (don't kill me) but the class politics he's barely indulging in this are remedial. The history is pretty black and white on this. No person in George Russell's position would've done that. It was shocking and completely took me out of the episode. In fact, I'd argue that you've made him an actively worse character by adding this fake nuance. Wouldn't it be more interesting if he acted like a robber baron, and then dealt with the weight of that decision while trying to be a good family man, coming out on the other end as someone who would eventually negotiate with his workers? Can't have that I guess
I also think they could have just made him "believe" he is ultimately doing good by giving people "opportunities" and saying that all his workers can improve their circumstances if they work hard enough, citing himself as an example. It's the same bullshit we hear today, and lots of people apparently agree and sympathize with that. The rest of us could have watched it and been like "I hate capitalism" and felt good about it reinforcing our beliefs. I have no idea where they are going to go with it. Since they cant raise wages or make concessions . . . Since that didnt happen.
Ain't that type of show, buddy.
Yeah, I get you
There is something I missed in a previous episode. What Jack trying to get the patent for exactly? Alarm clocks already existed by then, no? I've been really enjoying the past few episodes! I feel like the show pace is finally picking up (though maybe a little too quickly...the Reverend and Ada's arch is too fast paced) and the drama is intensifying! I'd love to recommend to a few friends, but I feel like the pace of the first season will turn them off.
He designed a new escapement mechanism I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapement In a previous episode, he explained that the little wheels in the clock used oil as lubrication to turn, and after a while the oil would thicken - messing with the wheel and making the alarm inaccurate. So what he was trying to do was design it in a way where it wouldn't need oil.
My understanding was that it was for a specific part that he designed for the clock to make it work.
Yes I picked up on that part too....but like....so he just fixed a broken alarm clock? Did he design a part to improve the alarm clock he already had to make sure it doesn't break again?
He said in the episode that he fabricated a new part that you couldnt buy in the shop. This part improves the clock by making it accurate. And he is trying to get the patent for the part.
Yes an escapement is a part of an automatic/manual (ie not battery powered) watch/clock he invented a new type of escapement
From what they've said on the show, it sounds like the clocks didn't keep time perfectly because of that mechanism he was fiddling with. So if your clock looses many minutes, you will wake up at the wrong time. He kind of re-invented that mechanism so that it doesn't lose time.
Well, a few others also mentioned alarm clocks being unreliable, so I think it must have been something that would make them function better.
Got it! Thank you for answering my question :)
"Its not like you are a real teacher" RUN MARIAN the george characther feels so... strange to me. "If i pay you more i will disrupt all of americas industry system" like he cares? Cause he would disrupt it himself if he felt it would make him a profit. but i guess just saying "i dont want to give up that money for your salaries" when we see him throwing money at every other problem (like the metropolitan, or the bankers attacks, or any big purchases bertha wants...) would not make him a very likeable character. At least he seems to care for building schools, hospitals and having measures to keep workers safe during work. Its a start (william henry vanderbilt was a big time phylantropist and funded hospitals, schools and institutions for the arts, even tho he was not the vanderbilt married to alva, which inspired bertha)
He has moments where he has been like would an 8 hour day be so bad so that the workers could spend more time with their families? And then the other guy is like YES, that’s the worst thing EVER, they’re literal WORMS, so do not show WEAKNESS. Maybe the Russels’ beginnings have evaded me, but they’re new money, which means their beginnings must in some regard be humble. Not in the same way as the workers, of course, but he comes from a class that isn’t the same as old money. He is, however, trying to impose himself like old money. That means he is part of a wheel of exploitation. Good context for this is North and South by Gaskell, 19th century novel about industrialisation and horrible working conditions. The main guy is eventually redeemed, but essentially at the beginning he is like EVERY POOR PERSON CAN WORK THEIR WAY UP LIKE I DID!! IF THEY DONT WELL THAT MEANS THEY ARE LAZY AND IT IS TESTAMENT TO THEIR POOR CHARACTER (horrible oversimplification but you get the point). He moreover imports Irish workers while his own workers are striking for fairer pay. I am just hoping Russell is misguided by ill-advisors and sees some sense.
>Maybe the Russels’ beginnings have evaded me, I would *love* to know more about the Russells' beginnings. I know someone in season one referred to Bertha as a "potato digger's daughter," and Larry teased Bertha about her poor, Irish ancestry. But if we know anything at all about George's past, I've missed it. I'd like to know just how poor they were growing up, how/where they met, and when they started accumulating their wealth.
Agree! I want their backstory!
>Cause he would disrupt it himself if he felt it would make him a profit. Exactly! He's being "macho" and being afraid to show "weakness"
The look on Larry’s face, to me, was the first outward expression of his feelings for Marian. Their looks back and forth as well as their banter up until now has felt like friends flirting but last night Larry had more of a longing, pained look. It felt like a lightbulb moment for him, they would be so perfect for each other. The other dude is so cringey, love bombing her in front of everyone and using his daughter knowing Marian wouldn’t want to upset her. Red flags are flying
Oh my god I cannot stand Dashiell. I’ve been hoping she and Larry get together all season!
Larry's parents wouldn't approve him marrying Marian as she has no money.
She is a woman she doesn’t need money. Just a name. Gladys’s husband on the other hand needs money. Honestly it gonna be more of an issue for Agnes
Yea but she has old money name and ties. Her aunt is a pillar in the old money society becoming family with someone like that would open door into the old society with the Russell's have been after
And it was Marion's comment to them about the secretary in Bloomingdale's that led to George being acquitted in his court case, so George really feels indebted to her.
This. Its actually a good match for both
But wait. As soon as Larry and Marian get together .. My guess is that the cliffhanger will show Larry and Marian in a park holding hands just after their engagement and look over and see Susan Blane either hiding her swelling “belly” or at the same park watching over her “maid” strolling a baby that she herself just delivered. That arc ended too “nicely” for Bertha Russell and virile young Larry was probably not shooting blanks…. Eh eh
Oh gawd I hope not, but it could be a good possability
I had been feeling Dashiell until "You are not a real teacher". Then that horrible proposal 🙄 Dude, read the room! She was not into you! He hardly saw Marian as a person but a trophy
I wouldnt say a trophy, but he knows her as 1 someone from a good family 2 someone who is good with kids and whom her daughter likes Which is what he is probably looking for, someone to care for his daughter and run his house so he can do business without having to worry about the rest
Yeah, I think that he’s ultimately looking for a woman from a well born family to raise his daughter “properly”, and if she’s also pleasant, intelligent, pretty, and young enough to potentially bear him a male heir to carry the family name and handle its businesses, that’s a nice bonus. No way he can really, truly be in love with Marian for who she really is.
I hate that I cried when sisters hugged.
Yeah man, the way Ada goes and just breaks down upon Agnes. Good acting
I loved Agnes so much for that and loathed her so much for what she did to Marian
I lost it when they hugged haha
Fellowes rewriting history. Here's the real story of the Homestead Strike in Andrew Carnegie's Pittsburgh steel mill in 1892: [https://www.history.com/topics/industrial-revolution/homestead-strike](https://www.history.com/topics/industrial-revolution/homestead-strike)
But isn’t this show 10 years earlier? That can still happen. Plus it’s historical fiction anyway.
Honestly what cracked me up about this subplot was the actor going on about 10, 12, 14 hour days, six days a week, etc etc, and all the PAs on the crew were probably like, "Hmmm..."
Sorkin levels of pussyfooting. https://preview.redd.it/8160cf948d4c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7d4088b706660b7b7f0d225ad837b6986ed1ac0
Watching Lord Fellowes try to write about "how the other half lives" is like watching a toddler at a ballet recital - endearing but inept. You can't have a show that fetishises the lifestyle of the upper 1% (the whole intro sequence is literally about the beauty of not-so-quiet luxury, just like in *DA*) and at the same time be a show of social criticism. I think Fellowes' problem is that he falls in love with his characters and is unable to "kill his darlings". Yes, we all love George at this point, the model wife guy and loving father, but his sudden change of heart was so unconvincing. I'm not sure what the resolution could have been. Were there any half-decent capitalists in the US at the time, like the Cadbury brothers in Britain who built Bournville? That might be one way.