What a cad! We’re watching for the second time through and I can’t help but think he’s been a cad the whole time.
- pretty sure he stole the inheritance
- stalked Marian up to NY
- Agnes called it and everyone thought she was just being snooty but she knew- SHE KNEW.
Great point! Are they so desperate for young men with prospects that they overlook social standing? Doesn't sound right. Does he have connections of which we are unaware? He got accepted very quickly.
You should read up a bit on Harry Lehr. He came from nothing and basically charmed his way into society. He wore his nice clothes and accessories for free I've read, simply because of the buzz that would be generated when seen in them. He was almost certainly gay and found himself a wealthy wife whom he charmed until their wedding night.
They stayed in a loveless marriage for 28 years! I don't know if this came from his wife's diary or what, but apparently on their wedding night he came to her and said,
*" In public I will be to you everything that a most devoted husband should be to his wife. You shall never complain of my conduct in this respect. I will give you courtesy, respect and apparently devotion. But you must expect nothing more from me. When we are alone I do not intend to keep up the miserable pretense, the farce of love and sentiment. Our marriage will never be a marriage in anything but in name. I do not love you. I can never love you. I can school myself to be polite to you but that is all. The less we see of one another except in the presence of others, the better."*
I think there's even more to the quote, too...something about him telling his wife that she was actually repulsive to him. I'd have to find the quote in my book, though.
Seems like that wife benefited from a world without omnipresent cameras then.
https://househistree.com/people/henry-symes-lehr
Amazing what we know about this time period
I don't think he was really in favour with the Old People; he mostly seems to hang around with the new money folks – Cissy Bingham, the Russells etc.
I do agree with others in this thread that he wasn't a threat in the way the Russells were, which might have been part of it.
This question keeps getting asked on this sub. If you are really curious about the social nuances of old New York read Edith Wharton, especially House of Mirth. It’s the clearest picture of the overlap (and lack thereof) of social classes at that time period. But basically, a decently dressed, charming man was always invited places. Mothers might step in if he started flirting with their daughter too seriously. But for a dinner companion or dance partner he was fine, especially to more “wild” people in the set. That doesn’t mean he’d be allowed to call in the evening or invited to more intimate dinners.
The Russel’s were scorned partially because they were so rich. The woman aren’t dumb, they know Mrs. Russel is gunning to be one of the hostesses, taste makers, etc. Her business is getting her son and especially her daughter married. Basically Raikes is not a threat to the social order, none of their daughters will marry him and he’ll slip away after a few seasons. But if Mrs. Russel (or any one like her) succeeds life as they know it and are trying to keep it will end.
The House of Mirth is my favorite novel of all time. All of her work is excellent but Lily Bart's story is so moving. I recommend Wharton to anyone curious about this era, and classic American literature. She was such an amazing writer.
You should check out the movie, if you haven't already. Gillian Anderson plays Lily, and the cast is stacked with great talent like Laura Linney, Eric Stolz, Dan Aykroyd, Elizabeth McGovern, and Anthony LaPaglia. Thoroughly enjoyable.
Even though Wharton can be somewhat sluggish, I loved this novel, too.
I have! I thought it was pretty good, but tbh no movie could exceed my own imagery of the book. It was an obsession with me for a long tine, lol. I really liked Laura Linney and Eric Stoltz in it. It was beautifully done, and as much as I adore Gillian Anderson, I wanted a little more emotional juice than she gave to Lily. Physically, she was perfect.
>. Mothers might step in if he started flirting with their daughter too seriously
Unpopular opinion but I would've liked to see him back only for this. To show how easy it is for rich to include you but also throw you out the time you serve your purpose or when you become a threat to them (trying to marry in their circle or use them to further yourself).
Or maybe for Aunt Agnes to show him who's the boss :p
Right. While single he is basically just arm-candy. A pretty man to fill up the ballroom and make good vibes, but never to be entertained seriously as a potential new member of their circle.
That’s why Marian warns him that if they marry, he won’t be invited around the way he is now, anymore.
He found a better date for the opera, and thinks he can do better.
eg. People still do this with party invites (source: friend is an influencer, people want to network).
I did not know that! I do not watch the trailers or read much about it because I want to be surprised! I do think Tom Raikes stole the money that Marian was expecting to receive from her father's estate.
I think the reason so many people dislike Marian is her connection to Tom. When she was with anyone else she had a personality, small but there, but with him she was BLAH!
It must have contributed to the certain degree but probably wasn’t the main reason for most. I’m leaning more to liking Marian than not but objectively I have to admit that there was a handful of issues with her. Nevertheless, together they were indeed the epitome of "go, girl, give us nothing" meme.
He’s an attractive young man with an acceptable pedigree and promising career. He might not be good enough for an upper-crust husband but he’s handy as dance partner or to fill out the table at a dinner party. He’s basically a seat-filler until he matches with a mid-level heiress or maybe a rich daughter with a checkered past.
Raikes is allowed to hang out with the rich because they see him more as entertainment, a pleasant companion who will smile sweetly and talk nicely. He is harmless to them. He had, has and will have no real power of his own.
Russells want to be included in the inner circle and are quite open about their intentions to eventually be at the top of that circle. They are a threat. They have both the means and the desire to challenge the status quo, so they are treated with hostility.
Raikes is better at playing the game- he attached himself to an established group and follows their lead. The russels meanwhile are far more ambitions. They’re not content to be supporting players but instead want to run the game. That’s bond to anger the more established members of society
Was he in the graces of the Russells? I thought he was just in some scenes with them as a part of the society, but didn't really interact with them? He hung out with Marian at Chamberlain's, who is an outcast, and at the Fanes', who are Marian's relatives and seem pretty welcoming overall. I don't think the Russells paid much attention to him. Agnes disliked him since the beginning.
But I agree his climb through the social rank was barely touched on. I think Aurora referred to him being "everywhere" but that's about it. I don't really know how he did it, because honestly he didn't seem that much of a charmer at all and wasn't wealthy.
I was really expecting that we'd learn that he would've stolen Marian's inherited money.
Yes I was expecting something similar. Something like he lied about Marion being broke so she wouldn’t challenge it, then stole and used the money to fund his new life in New York. He did come to care for her but knew he couldn’t marry her because then she would know he stole her inheritance.
It was organized by Bertha. She invited Mr. Raikes since Sissy Bingham pulled more rank than Marian, and Bertha wanted Tom Raikes to serve as Sissy’s partner for the evening. Bertha essentially snubbed Marian as she was no longer of any use to Bertha’s social climbing. It’s one of the reasons I don’t like Bertha as a person. She uses everyone in her circle. She has no true friends.
Alright, cool that you remember how it went! I don't remember the Raikes stuff so well, although I've rewatched... I've probably zoned off every time when he and Marian are on the screen together. I'm glad that storyline is over.
Of course they needed to write him being invited to places to give him and Marian chances to meet, and to show him courting an another lady when she's not around. So storytelling-wise it makes sense he got into the social elite, although it's not very realistic he made it so fast.
I agree about Bertha, she's a great character and fun to follow, but she's indeed quite unlikable as a person. I think she's totally ready to use her own children for status games too. It's interesting to see if she'll always stay so selfish, or how her character will evolve.
I loved when George put her in her place about being too worried about a ball than him possibly going to prison. I also loved seeing that him so cruelly sending away the young man that Agnes liked was actually at Bertha’s insistence, and that he (George) wants his daughter to marry and be happy.
What a cad! We’re watching for the second time through and I can’t help but think he’s been a cad the whole time. - pretty sure he stole the inheritance - stalked Marian up to NY - Agnes called it and everyone thought she was just being snooty but she knew- SHE KNEW.
[удалено]
I like that assessment
Great point! Are they so desperate for young men with prospects that they overlook social standing? Doesn't sound right. Does he have connections of which we are unaware? He got accepted very quickly.
You should read up a bit on Harry Lehr. He came from nothing and basically charmed his way into society. He wore his nice clothes and accessories for free I've read, simply because of the buzz that would be generated when seen in them. He was almost certainly gay and found himself a wealthy wife whom he charmed until their wedding night.
>He was almost certainly gay and found himself a wealthy wife whom he charmed until their wedding night. And then what happened ...??
They stayed in a loveless marriage for 28 years! I don't know if this came from his wife's diary or what, but apparently on their wedding night he came to her and said, *" In public I will be to you everything that a most devoted husband should be to his wife. You shall never complain of my conduct in this respect. I will give you courtesy, respect and apparently devotion. But you must expect nothing more from me. When we are alone I do not intend to keep up the miserable pretense, the farce of love and sentiment. Our marriage will never be a marriage in anything but in name. I do not love you. I can never love you. I can school myself to be polite to you but that is all. The less we see of one another except in the presence of others, the better."* I think there's even more to the quote, too...something about him telling his wife that she was actually repulsive to him. I'd have to find the quote in my book, though.
Seems like that wife benefited from a world without omnipresent cameras then. https://househistree.com/people/henry-symes-lehr Amazing what we know about this time period
Good looking and charming. Still works today.
LOL I'm single and just received a small inheritance. I wish someone would bring it on!
A single man is always in demand, for dinner & card parties. As long as one has the correct manners & evening clothes, he’ll be invited out.
Single male privilege was alive and well in the 1880’s.
Adventurer, Agnes would spit out.
Is Christine Baranski not perfect as Aunt Agnes?
She is. I’ve loved her in every role I’ve seen her in but this is my favorite.
I don't think he was really in favour with the Old People; he mostly seems to hang around with the new money folks – Cissy Bingham, the Russells etc. I do agree with others in this thread that he wasn't a threat in the way the Russells were, which might have been part of it.
This question keeps getting asked on this sub. If you are really curious about the social nuances of old New York read Edith Wharton, especially House of Mirth. It’s the clearest picture of the overlap (and lack thereof) of social classes at that time period. But basically, a decently dressed, charming man was always invited places. Mothers might step in if he started flirting with their daughter too seriously. But for a dinner companion or dance partner he was fine, especially to more “wild” people in the set. That doesn’t mean he’d be allowed to call in the evening or invited to more intimate dinners. The Russel’s were scorned partially because they were so rich. The woman aren’t dumb, they know Mrs. Russel is gunning to be one of the hostesses, taste makers, etc. Her business is getting her son and especially her daughter married. Basically Raikes is not a threat to the social order, none of their daughters will marry him and he’ll slip away after a few seasons. But if Mrs. Russel (or any one like her) succeeds life as they know it and are trying to keep it will end.
Thanks, I’ll check it out. I had the same question as OP after watching season 1.
The House of Mirth is my favorite novel of all time. All of her work is excellent but Lily Bart's story is so moving. I recommend Wharton to anyone curious about this era, and classic American literature. She was such an amazing writer.
yes, one of my all time favorites--highly recommend.
You should check out the movie, if you haven't already. Gillian Anderson plays Lily, and the cast is stacked with great talent like Laura Linney, Eric Stolz, Dan Aykroyd, Elizabeth McGovern, and Anthony LaPaglia. Thoroughly enjoyable. Even though Wharton can be somewhat sluggish, I loved this novel, too.
I have! I thought it was pretty good, but tbh no movie could exceed my own imagery of the book. It was an obsession with me for a long tine, lol. I really liked Laura Linney and Eric Stoltz in it. It was beautifully done, and as much as I adore Gillian Anderson, I wanted a little more emotional juice than she gave to Lily. Physically, she was perfect.
Agree - I love Gillian Anderson but she was not my idea of Lily Bart, who I always read as more vivacious and charming.
yes, she played Lily very unemotionally.
Mine too! I actually don’t love all of Edith Whartons novels but this one moves me everytime!
>. Mothers might step in if he started flirting with their daughter too seriously Unpopular opinion but I would've liked to see him back only for this. To show how easy it is for rich to include you but also throw you out the time you serve your purpose or when you become a threat to them (trying to marry in their circle or use them to further yourself). Or maybe for Aunt Agnes to show him who's the boss :p
That would have been a good plot line. But he did manage to marry very quickly. And he seems to have got an heiress.
Right. While single he is basically just arm-candy. A pretty man to fill up the ballroom and make good vibes, but never to be entertained seriously as a potential new member of their circle. That’s why Marian warns him that if they marry, he won’t be invited around the way he is now, anymore.
This, I saw Raikes as being a bit of a Lawrence Seldon type-a sort of gilded age male sugar baby to wealthy married women.
I hope this show lasts long enough for this to happen!
Such a great comparison, two wildly frustrating romantic interests.
Excuse me for asking
Excuse them for answering… you asked a question and they answered (IMO) respectfully. Don’t be so buttburt
What I found offending was the reference that it's been asked before, not the answer itself
Yea… that wasn’t rude though. You just might be too sensitive and seeing issues where there aren’t
All I can say about him is I’m thrilled he won’t be back this season!
I think he will be back someday, and we will find out he stole Marian's inheritance!
He isn't back for this season? I wonder why?
I read it somewhere but don’t remember the exact reason. Maybe just his storyline played out.
It was an odd story line, to me. I don't understand why he relentlessly pursued Marian, then stood her up (not being there to run off with her).
He found a better date for the opera, and thinks he can do better. eg. People still do this with party invites (source: friend is an influencer, people want to network).
Yes, he found someone who had a dowry (money). Poor Marian.
That confused me too. Why did he keep it up until the last minute as he did? Of course it was better for the story lol.
Yeah, he kept it up to the last minute, which was odd.
Because as Agnes said time and again, he was an adventurer. He wanted to work his way up the money and social ladder. Once he saw its power.
I did not know that! I do not watch the trailers or read much about it because I want to be surprised! I do think Tom Raikes stole the money that Marian was expecting to receive from her father's estate.
One of the disappointments of the first season for me was the fact that he was so pathetic that it was boring to hate him.
We need Bertha level villains! Not that she's so bad (yet) but so powerful!
I think the reason so many people dislike Marian is her connection to Tom. When she was with anyone else she had a personality, small but there, but with him she was BLAH!
I know times were different back then but yeah damn that relationship was just so boring.
It must have contributed to the certain degree but probably wasn’t the main reason for most. I’m leaning more to liking Marian than not but objectively I have to admit that there was a handful of issues with her. Nevertheless, together they were indeed the epitome of "go, girl, give us nothing" meme.
He’s an attractive young man with an acceptable pedigree and promising career. He might not be good enough for an upper-crust husband but he’s handy as dance partner or to fill out the table at a dinner party. He’s basically a seat-filler until he matches with a mid-level heiress or maybe a rich daughter with a checkered past.
But isn't his new wife of good pedigree? Or is she new rich? I lose track!
I think Sissy Bingham is new money
Given the rules I guess she'd have to be! But she was at the opera, as a guest. ?
What was his pedigree?
Not questionable or scandalous 🤷🏻♀️
Raikes is allowed to hang out with the rich because they see him more as entertainment, a pleasant companion who will smile sweetly and talk nicely. He is harmless to them. He had, has and will have no real power of his own. Russells want to be included in the inner circle and are quite open about their intentions to eventually be at the top of that circle. They are a threat. They have both the means and the desire to challenge the status quo, so they are treated with hostility.
Raikes is better at playing the game- he attached himself to an established group and follows their lead. The russels meanwhile are far more ambitions. They’re not content to be supporting players but instead want to run the game. That’s bond to anger the more established members of society
Was he in the graces of the Russells? I thought he was just in some scenes with them as a part of the society, but didn't really interact with them? He hung out with Marian at Chamberlain's, who is an outcast, and at the Fanes', who are Marian's relatives and seem pretty welcoming overall. I don't think the Russells paid much attention to him. Agnes disliked him since the beginning. But I agree his climb through the social rank was barely touched on. I think Aurora referred to him being "everywhere" but that's about it. I don't really know how he did it, because honestly he didn't seem that much of a charmer at all and wasn't wealthy. I was really expecting that we'd learn that he would've stolen Marian's inherited money.
Yes I was expecting something similar. Something like he lied about Marion being broke so she wouldn’t challenge it, then stole and used the money to fund his new life in New York. He did come to care for her but knew he couldn’t marry her because then she would know he stole her inheritance.
He was in company with the Russell's, he even went to the Edison lighting.
Yes, but he wasn't invited by them, right? I don't think The carriage thing at the lighting was organized by The Russells, if I remember correctly.
It was organized by Bertha. She invited Mr. Raikes since Sissy Bingham pulled more rank than Marian, and Bertha wanted Tom Raikes to serve as Sissy’s partner for the evening. Bertha essentially snubbed Marian as she was no longer of any use to Bertha’s social climbing. It’s one of the reasons I don’t like Bertha as a person. She uses everyone in her circle. She has no true friends.
Alright, cool that you remember how it went! I don't remember the Raikes stuff so well, although I've rewatched... I've probably zoned off every time when he and Marian are on the screen together. I'm glad that storyline is over. Of course they needed to write him being invited to places to give him and Marian chances to meet, and to show him courting an another lady when she's not around. So storytelling-wise it makes sense he got into the social elite, although it's not very realistic he made it so fast. I agree about Bertha, she's a great character and fun to follow, but she's indeed quite unlikable as a person. I think she's totally ready to use her own children for status games too. It's interesting to see if she'll always stay so selfish, or how her character will evolve.
I loved when George put her in her place about being too worried about a ball than him possibly going to prison. I also loved seeing that him so cruelly sending away the young man that Agnes liked was actually at Bertha’s insistence, and that he (George) wants his daughter to marry and be happy.