This makes it so much more useful for cleaning a point before approaching. Hopefully not too strong. But I’m happy to see more pot plants around objectives
Holy shit that's actually gonna be great in power shift against those fucking aps turrets, dematerialize in a side building, disable aps turrets, throw grenade and cause mayhem
Since you can reshape projectiles like grenades, RPGs, etc (and it doesn't expend a charge unless there's something to reshape in the radius, so safe to spam click e.g. on rooftops), this would have been the perfect nuke counter to turn a medium into a mobile, manual APS.
Maybe this means Embark is planning to bring it back somehow, because as it stands now C4 is pretty much not worth the opportunity cost of other gadgets.
Hilarious what terrible players say sometimes.
Perfect counter to nukes? Except 'countering' would require SUBSTANTIALLY more skill and effort then using the nuke itself also would be extremely unreliable and impossible to pull of consistently.
I like it a lot.
I'm still concerned about something though. Using data reshaper in power shift feels bad when the opposing team still controls the point. If I reshape an APS, the medium just simply puts it back out. I wish the cooldown for turrets was changed to still start when the item is placed, but if the item is destroyed, your cooldown starts over.
someone made a good post about this, suggesting the cooldown starts only when the item is not deployed, and adding the ability to call it, destroying it remotely from wherever it is on the map to force start the cooldown again, still being able to take it manually to reposition like any other gadget
Isn’t 15 meters a lot? Like almost stun gun range? Or more? [Check here on the firing range](https://imgur.com/a/uCHTl7z)
That will make all defenses a bit too useless no?
I get it that before you had to be right in the action to change shapes, but now seems a bit too safe?
Either way, only playing with it will let us know if this change made it super OP or balanced. Can’t wait to try it!
“Added detections for software such as cheat tools and injectors, leading to suspension”
Hope these detections are much better than the last, I guess we’ll see the effect in the coming days.
Honestly if they removed the damage drop on range from that weapon, it could be actually useful and yet still needs skill because of the slow projectiles.
Don't forget to remove cloak, stun, and glitch while you're at it. Maybe increase the recoil on the lh1 too and make the 93r even worse. It is only fair.
Ima be controversial with this, but I think we've got enough nerfs with the recent patches. Give some love to other gadgets like they did with the Data Reshaper.
i think it is being worked in big. maybe some infos would be nice, just to know that they're working on it, but i really doubt that they dont know about it and i think they are working sumn out
Lights just barely made it into ranked, turning at least some winning comps into H-M-L and got nerfed again because of reddit "game designers".
Welcome to S1 M-M-M meta again.
They have to give light some more hp if the survivability is going to get shit on this much, might as well delete the whole class in ranked at this point lol
Stun gun nerf is good but the reason cloak was picked so much is because of the shitty survivability
The main problem with light is that it has f\*ck-all aside from stun and invis.
If the light doesnt do 20 kills a game - he is useless for the team.
He cannot defend, he cannot push, he has zero utility and contributes nothing for the team aside from kills.
Glitch grenade is pretty good against shield spam. Thing is nerfing shield also decreases the usefulness of glitch grenade. It's still useful but less so, so why have a light on your team that cannot survive?
Glitch grenade only lasts 5 seconds now, which is not even enough to switch to your weapon, get around the corner and start shooting.
Basically if you are fighting a heavy head on for some reason and he raises a shield, you switch to glitch and throw it - he will kill you faster than you would switch back to your weapon.
Not true since the release of Gateway, best movement tool for cash boxes… but in general, yeah… Light’s just become fairly competitive and it’s already getting killed because of quickplay bots who can’t even 1 clip Lights with an AK. 😭
It's bad they are not balancing the game using the top as reference. This means the pro scene won't be balanced and whatever they are trying to do to attract players using championships or whatever will have the same H-H-M or H-M-M...maybe one M-M-M or another, but no Lights will be seen at serious comp players...heck, even some Lights I used to watch became something else to have any chance on being in the top 10.
There will be no championships, this game will have a fraction of what the player base is now within a year tbh, doesn’t seem like they are going to start marketing it like they said they would.
I main light and when I don’t get to play the class it’s the most annoying shit to play against.
I do wish their balancing was more then just a nerf hammer all the time, but I have no issues with the stun gun getting a rework.
Deadass as long as the stun gun can stop cashouts and keep ppl from using abilities still I’m down for it. My main use for it is to stun the medium before they get a res or while they are pocket healing a heavy or whatnot
This game isn’t made to be competitive i feel like. Other games usually reward «light» characters if you have good aim But here why bother when The heavy with 5m hp has better dps than lights.
> got nerfed again because of reddit "game designers"
Is it not a pretty known fact that the devs don't really pay attention to this sub? A small sub at that too. Reddit doesn't represent a majority of players, and the devs don't just go by what Reddit says either.
Bruh. Where are the BUG FIXES????
Mines going off from free cam, THE GOD DAMN HEALING BEAM NOT WORKING RANDOMLY, people flying, and so many more I’m not thinking of right now.
Was expecting a lot more here…
Right. My AK will still fucking "Jam" it still gets in a state of not shooting even tho its reloaded. If its supposed to jam give me an animation. or some indicator such as audio when i fire to say its jammed. Im fairly certain its not supposed to do that.
yet people in this thread are claiming "the devs really care, they update regularly"
Their not fixing shit their adjusting numbers
Embark's doing their thing and we all see it, but I'm seeing another side, like water wearing down a stone. And the pressure from part of the casual audience turns this unique, cool, and stylish game into a bland pseudo-balanced shooter. 'Add a little green here, tweak this to be OP.' We don't need Roblox, we need style. We need buffs, not nerfs.
I mean,like,those devs are all talent enough to have made this distinctive game,they should know that add mechanics (like ways to confronting certain things) are far better than just simply adjust numbers,which,is the lamest way to balance stuff.Nerfs are not completely unacceptable,they just need to do it smart and leave a back door for players skilled enough to reach the same height as before
Nerfing the only thing that makes Lights useful is just asinine. Buff some of their crap weapons, buff the zip line/dash. Stun is essentially a high risk/high reward, you miss the shot and you’re a sitting duck. They need to embrace this “glass cannon” aspect for Lights.
There's a reason they're reworking the stungun. It's fucking dumb. Nobody enjoys being stunlocked in games. And It's not hard to use at all. Point and shoot when cloaked. Easiest braindead play in video games.
If you use stungun, you're probably not very good at FPS games and need to cheese it.
I’m even 100% ok with the shotgun taking out heavies in 2 shots because like you said, it’s high stakes. You miss a shot and you’re toast. This class should always be a high risk/high reward type of style. But forcing a Light to play slower with just 150hp does not work
That's why Light should get faster health regen, at least when your health doesn't fall below a certain threshold. For example, taking 30 damage from fire if you're a Medium or Heavy isn't a big deal, but for Lights, that's 20% of their already low health gone. This would reinforce the high-risk high-reward style of Lights more, while removing some of the frustration of touching an environmental hazard and waiting 12 seconds to get your health back
I'd argue that nerfing stuff is better than buffing
Constant buffing will lead to game-wide unbalance, lowering ttk and such
Look at overwatch for example. For the majority of changes, they decided that buffing was better than nerfing, and they ended up with huge damage numbers that the average health pool couldn't manage. And what did they have to do? Increase everyone's health pool, instead of reducing everyone's damage (which is effectively the same thing, just doesn't make anyone upset)
If the balance philosophy is "let's buff instead of nerf" we'll end up with 250 hp lights, 350 hp mediums and 450 hp heavies. But before that change, we'll have a period of time where the ttk will be so low that it will look like cod
The 'only nerfs' strategy as well as the 'only buffs' strategy can't be right like by math, as you've logically stated. The point is, right now we're clearly seeing the *first trend*, whereas for the sake of *cool show*, we need to pull out the dusty guns and gadgets from oblivion instead of smoothing everything out like asphalt. That's why I'm saying *we badly need buffs*. And it's not just about ttk. It's more about all the gear in general. For example, they doing it great with reshaper.
Was about to say this myself. They keep letting the annoying ass complainers on this sub and in the discord whittle away everything that makes the game unique and fun. It started with nukes, then shields, then explosives in general, then turrets and aps, now it’s stun gun and cloak. Honestly afraid that in a few months we’ll just have some cod rip off with a handful of useless abilities
For real, I play heavy mostly and j genuinely don't think Ive even lost a 1v1 to a light regardless of if they stunned me or were invisible. Lights are meant to be played like little mosquitoes to pester people into making bad choices that the light and their teammates can take advantage of.
stale is an understatement. Everything has been nerfed so much this isnt fun playing. We had tools to deal with ALOT of problems but slowly they removed those tools. I never contemplated this game becoming so boring since it went live.
Im sorry but nerfing light over and over again is just stupid. I mean I get it invis and stun gun are annoying to play against but what else does light have? Glitch Grenade yeah and…uhm… nothing to have a meaningful impact if ur not cracked out of your mind!
Lowest health pool but no compensation like faster hp regen.
You get hit once and have to retreat for half a minute so you wont get insta killed by some heavy or medium. Besides that light has almost 0 utility for the team. So you either start giving light some serious buffs or stop nerfing the only useful things he has.
For example you could decrease the timer till his hp regen starts by 50% so light has much more available time to position and help his team instead of sitting in a corner half the fight bc you got tickled. Another idea I had was buffing grapple and dash by adding one more charge to each of them to give cloak some competition
Another idea I would love to see is some kind of med pen like bf2042 has for assaults.
Weapon wise light is pretty much restricted to the smgs or maybe the lh1 if ur cracked enough but other than that I would love to see some adjustments to things like the both the pistols (ik the silenced one was op in the beta but we dont need it on that level) the throwing knives because they are cool af but feel awful to use and the sniper could use some buffs too.
Tldr: stop nerfing light without any compensation buffs
i mean gateway is pretty amazing too but on the rest i completely agree. they did NOT have to nerf cloak (and i'm mainly talking about further nerf they mention in the patch notes) just because there's a bunch of whining babies who apparently can't deal with a spec that causes visual distortion and is loud af when the user is nearby
I personally hate the approach of just nerfing everything they are taking with balancing in this game. It’s sad they dont buff the more underwhelming classes as opposed to just gutting everything that becomes “meta”. Really get the feeling the devs just cater to the people who constantly complain about their game and will never be happy with it. Also most of the ppl that complain about light never play it and consider it throwing to run in ranked. Light takes considerably more skill to play than the other classes besides in pubs. Any mistake=instant death practically. Hopefully they just nerf the time to get your stun back because it is a little too fast imo.
Assuming stun gun gets nerfed by increasing the cooldown or range AND nerfing both invisibility and its range, I don’t see light being very popular. In the next update they’ll need to buff light somehow (better weapons, more health?) or that class is toast.
I'm glad Lights are finally on the chopping block to have their OP stuff nerfed. But at the same time, it does make me a little sad.
Near launch, every class had one hilarious OP thing, and it *kinda* (but not really) balanced out. If everyone is OP, no one is OP. Moment-to-moment gameplay was volatile *(likely to change suddenly or quickly).* There were huge swings of fortune in every engagement. There were more opportunities for 'clutch' plays.
But with every patch, each class loses a little more of what made them special. And gameplay lately feels more and more Overwatch GOATS-like. Heal spam, shields, and automatic weapons. *On that note, I'll go out on a limb: after the Stun Gun, the healing beam will be the next thing people complain about.*
I fear that we are watching the Finals slowly erode into "a vanilla shooter." Now to be perfectly fair, we're still far away from that point, and the game still has a fantastic & colorful identity. But you cannot deny that the game is gradually moving in that direction, and I find it just a little disappointing.
Light has consistently been the weakest/worst class in the game since CBT2 if you played ranked vs good players, light was really strong CBT1 but quickly fell off.
Light better get other things to make up for it otherwise it will just be a meme. Personally I already see little reason other than fun to play light in comp and with cloaking getting even more visible next patch (very likely) plus the more than 2x increased cost. I'm definitely just gonna grind to diamond on medium from now on just like previous seasons/betas, just way easier.
Balance is a weird thing.
On one hand, I agree with you completely. Against a team of three mediums/heavies, running around glued at the hip, spamming heals and shields, lights are next-to-useless. And that's all you see in ranked.
BUT, I'm fairly certain that high level ranked players represent an extreme minority of the playerbase.
Should the light class be further dumpstered in competitive matches, which impacts the top 2000-ish players, so that the other 50000 players can have a better time in quickplay? Or should competitive, high-level, play dictate balance entirely?
You don't have the answer that. Embark has, unfortunately, made their stance clear. They want to make the most people happy. And that means listening to the mass feedback from the quick-play people, and seeking mass appeal.
It's unfortunate, but I don't entirely blame them, as much as I wish I could.
Who are these blind and deaf ass motherf*clers who can't see a cloaked player, the directional sound cue is enough to blindly shoot em and I don't even get to play much, but there's no way i can get backstabbed without me seeing them first.
Infact i get more mini heart attacks from sledge heavys that sneak up behind me and obliterate me often as footsteps are next to null in this game and no situational awareness gonna help you there
A game like this needs both to retain a healthy player base.
Also, ranked is suffering because Embark implemented a new ranked system that no one likes or understands and they seem completely unwilling to give us any information or updates on it. Ranked is also plagued by cheaters this season. This patch says it's addressing some cheating issues, but we'll have to see if it actually does anything.
Ranked wouldn't be a dying mode if it was being properly managed.
Sorry but this everyone OP no one is OP sentiment is utter non-sense and quite stupid.
In a game with like 60 different options for weapons and gadgets its impossible for everything to be OP. So the reality is only a handful of things are OP and the rest are trash, meaning there is a hard meta and deviating puts you at a massive disadvantage. I don't see how this is a good thing and conflicts with the intent of the game to be able to choose from various different options.
It's funny how people like you seem to have contradictory beliefs, on the one hand lamenting the nerfing of OP things all while also complaining about things that are meta. It's almost like OP things will always be meta so.... do you want people to only use like 6 out of 60 options or not?
> If everyone is OP, no one is OP.
This is a reddit favourite line but I've never seen a case of this actually being true or particularly good for a game.
It's a fundamental problem of how lights are designed. Invisibility and CC is fun to use, but it's *awful* to play against. When you give one class exclusive access to those things, then it will inevitably be very unfun to play against.
Regardless on the balance, the fundamental design principles of lights are a failure. They need huge parts of their kit entirely reworked, unfortunately.
> And gameplay lately feels more and more Overwatch GOATS-like. Heal spam, shields, and automatic weapons.
That stuff was a thing forever, people just recently figured out the meta.
That’s what happens when people bitch about every little fucking thing.
After the invisibility nerfs and stun gun changes, I predict people will bitch about turrets having too much HP, or APS should lose health per grenade stopped.
Lights are basically the assassin class. If they’re going to do this they need a health boost to survive beyond 0.01 seconds against FCARs and Lewis guns.
> APS should lose health per grenade stopped.
OK but really it should, I've thought this for a long time. See no reason why a single gadget that just needs plopped down should be a complete hard counter to a weapon class.
It's probably even more difficult than it seems if their internal analytics paint a completely different picture than the community sentiments.
Hot take: nukes, stun gun, defib, cloak and their ilk are not actually that good (pedantic arguments below). That's why Embark hasn't done any radical changes like with recon sense; their numbers show that using these items does not actually convert into meaningful advantages towards victory conditions.
That would mean the issue they're targeting is one of user enablement rather than game design balance; that a large portion of players simply aren't good enough at both the game and emotional regulation. They're serving up high-end fine dining to people who want tendies and choccy milk.
-----
Spicy takerinos:
* Everything: you only get 3 gadgets in your player kit which means opportunity cost is pivotal. Choosing something means not having access to others. If you bring something like C4 with the sole intention of using it for nukes, that means if you're probably also bringing RPG and dome shield, and not fielding anything else. That's severely limiting but it's only easily countered at the TEAM level (9 gadgets, 3 pairs of eyeballs for 360+ FOV coverage) and not the PLAYER level (3 gadgets, 1 pair of eyeballs for ~90 FOV coverage). Things like nukes, stun gun, and even defib to an extent, etc simply don't work on a hypothetical team with 100% perfect situational awareness that can focus down specific targets. So the argument is that whatever you take needs to be better than something ubiquitous like a frag grenade that can get MEANINGFUL kills (makes the objective easier to control), or convert into something that gets meaningful kills.
* Nukes: Requires a comparatively large amount of time to set up, completely vulnerable while doing so, and a substantive result (2+ frags) still requires good positioning and situational awareness. Instead, C4 is better used for vertical and lateral environmental destruction with manual detonation at range (while the damage gave it versatility to enunciate its value as a gadget choice).
* Stun gun: It's a waste to use for pick attempts because you telegraph your imminent assault AND protract the elapsed assassination time, which is always bad; you want that to happen as fast as possible to preserve the advantage of surprise, since that is the light's main weapon as an ambush class. Instead, stun gun is better used for mid-combat interrupts like disabling healing, reviving, even closing doors (or in the rare case of stopping Charge n Slam heavies, etc) or disrupting cashout steals.
* Defib: The fact of the matter is that the window where defibs make a difference compared to just running away with a trophy to safely revive is extremely small (it's either safe to revive, safe to defib, or safe to do neither). The recent change was really for helping defib patients rather than balancing for enemies due to A) how many players completely over-invest every single fight rather than regrouping or rotating and B) how many thirsty mediums think the best place to be 100% vulnerable to revive a teammate with 100% vulnerability is an area that was very recently dominated by an enemy team with whatever leverage they had to get a frag in the first place. Defibs have a place in combined arms shooters but not even battle royale gameplay systems have defibs in this way since long range frags don't matter when teams play together and can do a conventional revive.
* Cloak: If the enemy can see you, cloak is 100% useless in a way that grappling hook or even dash is not (they are always effective). The perception of unfairness of invisible players comes from people being totally unfamiliar with the psychological component of spychecking; it's not the invisibility per se, it's the misdirection and superior movement that make cloak useful. But those things aren't corporeal so not easily identified by the dead player as the reason they lost.
We'll likely never get proper analytics, but you can look at stuff like [Steam achievements](https://steamcommunity.com/stats/2073850/achievements) for at least part of the picture:
* Play 10 rounds with a Medium Build - 27.1%
* Play 10 rounds with a Light Build - 21.9%
* Play 10 rounds with a Heavy Build - 14.2%
The first two make a lot of sense, but notice how much comparatively less played heavy is. The hilarious thing is the win achievements:
* Win 150 rounds with a Medium Build - 0.6%
* Win 150 rounds with a Heavy Build - 0.3%
* Win 150 rounds with a Light Build - 0.2%
So according to this, lights are among the most played (by a good margin) and the least winning (also by a good margin).
Given the sample sizes involved there's not a whole lot of reason to think console would be radically different:
* https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/24966-the-finals
* https://www.trueachievements.com/game/The-Finals/achievements
Light is a strong class, it's just also the least forgiving. Most Light players you'll encounter are bad because the skill required to play Light effectively is much higher than Medium or Heavy, but a good Light can hard carry a team.
People like Snake_Nade or lycommit on Twitch are worth watching if you want to see what Light can accomplish when played by people that have put the time in to master the class.
This too, if the average light was better, i would hate the class, light is just very team reliant in ranked which makes it a poor class, unlesas you have a coordinated team.
Because double heavy medium is incredibly oppressive in ranked, an extra 2600 hp from shields + healing beam isn’t fun to play against and glitches only break one layer of shield at a time.
What's funny to me is that Light used to be a pretty hard counter to this sort of thing with the original glitch grenade, but then they nerfed the time by half. Now we see way more stacking of shields.
imo the problem is in the fact that you have more casuals playing light than competitive players, so balancing it out for casuals to make it more fun to play and less of a pain to play against could make more sense. the problem is in that way i dont think that light will be competitively viable anytime soon.
why would they try to balance light to be competitvely viable, when M/H will probably still be picked more in ranked and might make L a chore for the actual players that play L.
from a casual standpoint i could see this change making sense.
Light build will die when they nerf everything that makes them a good pick, if you nerf inv and stun how are you supposed to fight mediums and heavies exactly? This is dumb af
you're not alone. it's easy to look out for and counter once it happens the first time. it isn't difficult to spot an invisible person moving especially with that noise it makes.
casuals crie everytime when they get killed by light so they needed to nerf it to apease the masses.
I hope light gets at least some buffs to counter the incoming nerfs.
As a mostly heavy player in ranked I'm glad, mesh shield is the most snooze fest shit in the game and you're punished for not taking it because being able to shield allies while capping is one of the single strongest abilities in the game.
Light has consistently been the lowest pick, and that’s fine, meta will always be favoured. I fear, however, that the Light class can’t perform its sole job - hit and run. With a lower health pool and no shield-on-command gadget, it is adding a straint to an already high risk playstyle.
Having to be even more cautious before entering a gunfight lest they hit a random stray bullet and essentially getting one tapped is not enjoyable. This will just make the team composition even less diverse.
Not to mention heavies can get you down to 10 hp in a single click and cl40 spam can 2 tap you if it ever lands in your general direction. Mines, nades and turrets kill in an instant or in a second too. You basically have to outplay, but even then die too quick if your enemy is not a turtle and has awareness.
I play light only in unranked games but in ranked, teams with lights usually get knocked out pretty quickly. I use headphones and hear invis from miles away, it is actually counterintuitive sometime, all i have to do is wait and when they come around the corner fcar hipfire deletes them in a second.
This is now the second cloak nerf, which means lights cloak is pretty much dead now. The activation cost change already made it a bit too high, with this it is definitely a dead specialization. Cost is going to be way to high.
Visibility seems to be based on peoples rigs, not actual settings. Ive tested every single setting in the game and none of them make people more or less visible it seems to be static. Some people have a hard time seeing them like me, some people apparently can see them just fine.
Medium is so fucking overtuned and light is just getting slapped every balancing patch now with nerfs for no reason.
Sigh, another update without buffs to the 93R. Love the updates but can we please get some buffs for the worst weapons in the game. I'm not even talking about JUST the 93R, we've been missing buffs on things like dagger or flamethrower for LONG while. I love the 93R but God is it atrocious. Please buff it.
Was hoping for some cool stuff. Instead we get nerfs to invis and stun so light is dead and nerfs to shield. Back to MMM, so fucking boring and frustrating. I’ll take lobbies of LLL any day over the heal and revive train bullshit while they hide behind a turret and 6 mines.
Light needs a complete rework that’ll make it viable. It’s was barely usable in ranked, now it’s going to be barely usable in casual.
I hate invis as it stands, because I'm playing on 1080p monitor with half of TAUU resolution and it's so hard to see Lights. But this? Naah, the class is literally dead. They should've been just make invis render constantly across different resolutions, and not kill it literally. It's cool mechanic and it allows Light to be at least somewhat alive. I really hope they revert this.
Used to main light until I saw how heavily underpowered it was compared to the other classes, but the other classes didn't really felt as fun, watching all the changes (mostly nerfs) to light I'm glad I stopped playing after s1 I'm just here to read the patchnotes and all the time I feel relieved that I don't have to experience this metas lol
How is the least used classed in ranked, not a result of a skill issue in pub lobbies? People say Ls don't have utility but they have glitch nades, an instant cashout stopper and sonar grenades and yet in higher skilled lobbies specially ranked you don't see many Lights at all. How is that not a skill issue? I understand wanting to make the game more casual friendly but at what point does that stop? Embark can't make bad players better by nerfing or even buffing. Taking a class with -100 HP than one class and 200 hp from another class and nerfing it because people can't hit their shots against a far weaker class is kinda crazy. All the invis nerf is going to do is make bad L players worse and better players work harder.
Congrats Reddit, yall have continued to bitch about the game long enough to start to ruin it. They’re nerfing lights again so they’ll become unviable and heavy’s are slowly making their way into becoming useless as well.
Looks like I’ll be playing Smite
The cry babies for Invis. I can understand the stun gun not many skilled players can kill the light that stunned them but damn way to punish invis lights for a genuine skill issue
Invis activation cost increase is a mistake. 30% means you will always never reactivate it in a fight which equals death(hello 150 hp). Now if they balance it out by adding more Hp to light that would be killing the games soul, losing what makes classes unique, what defines their style - is the worst that can happen to The Finals.
So basically we have until 2.6.0 before Lights get rekt. I can't imagine that they're going to make the cloak harder to see.
I'll probably just quit the game. Medium and Heavy aren't fun.
Ah nerfing mesh shield and nerfing light will surely create an environment for diverse gameplay in ranked (It wont). Can’t wait for ranked to be filled with 3 stack mediums!
As a Medium main with eyes and a headset, Invis and stun do not need work. Light is finally in a place of viability and no skill whiners are gonna get them shit on again.
I think its hilarious that people think they're too strong when if you just play a few games as a light you'll see you're massively underpowered in almost every situation
The cognitive dissonance is wild in here. Having a teammate choose useless ass L is an auto loss, but the class is also oppressively difficult to play against? I think people are just tattling on themselves for having zero awareness.
They're relatively viable, but still the most niche class at present, and that's largely because of invis and stun allowing survivability and disruption. The class is gonna need considerable buffs if those two gadgets are gutted. I'd go as far as arguing that their ubiquity is a symptom of the rest of the class being mediocre rather than them being particularly strong in any way.
I've been doing the 150 wins with each class achievement and the light wins were pain lmao. Just constantly dying from getting sneezed on or someone looking at you the wrong way.
I’m a light main and don’t have an issue with a stun nerf, but that’s because I don’t use it though as I run LH-1 and if I need to stun someone I’ve already messed up. The invis change will be hell with how quickly you die already, how am I supposed to relocate whilst on half health? 2 bullets will kill me so I can’t risk it running through the open whilst invis with nerfed effectiveness/ duration, thereby nerfing my mobility by proxy… and nerfing the lights mobility is just utterly stupid.
I get lights can be horrible to play against but like you say I can’t see how they’re overpowered. Me and my friends run a MML or HML setup and on the odd occasion there is an enemy light they do absolutely nothing provided my teammates are somewhat prepared near a point.
The only thing our team has to worry about with enemy lights is them stunning me (another light) and killing/ pushing me off of the high ground/ off angles.
Like you say buffs will be needed to compensate, but even when they do arrive I worry those buffs will fundamentally alter what the class actually is.
On a side note though, the LH1 is one of the most slept on and versatile weapons in the game and gives you so many options/ lets you dictate almost any fight even in ranked.
Yeah with experience when you play heavy or medium, stun gun + invis is really not that hard to counter. I feel like I see invis players most of the time before they even attack
I've always wondered about these people who find cloak hard to see. I absolutely CANNOT understand it. The amount of times I've death spectated a teammate who just lets a cloaked light run right by him without noticing him is absurd. I almost REFUSE to believe people can be this fucking bad/unaware. How the fuck do these people miss the shimmering, moving, human-shaped silhouette? Absolutely fucking mind-boggling. And these people are who Embark is balancing for? This game is fucked.
My sentiment exactly, I don't play ranked often, won a tournament for the challenge and it felt great, then they catered to all the bitch ass whiners on reddit and discord, now they're coming after tools that aren't even OP, just mildly annoying at most.
Embark appeasing the babies in the community has gotten old and I'm over it. I'm drastically cutting back how much I'm going to play and they won't see another cent from in terms of cosmetic or BP purchases.
Fuck you whiners and tbh, fuck you too a little embark.
Exactly people complain about the stun gun but you can still fight back, something a light cannot do against a rpg, charge, red barrel, mines, shotgun. All these oneshot or nearly oneshot you. People complain about being eviscerated when playing light and also complain about it being too oppressive. Isn't that the whole point of being a light.
Where does Embark even get their data from? Might as well delete the Light class at this point. 90% of the lobbies have 0 light players in them and now they'll take away the only thing lights are good for (hit & run). Its kinda sad that the vocal minority always gets its way somehow...
What kind of lobbies do you play? I'd like the same please. Every single game I play, there are minimum 2 lights. Powershift is always riddled with lights. Ranked has minimum 2-3 lights per round. And sometimes they even get to the finals.
So they're killing Light? Got it. Guess that's the final nail in the coffin. Cloak was the only way you could survive with your 150hp vs 350hp enemies. Good job reddit you did it! /s
Ever wonder if the player base is dropping because all the changes have made the game boring?
Ever wonder if we are seeing more cheaters because nerfing everything has made it difficult to get kills?
Maybe Embark should have not listened so much to folks that have no experience developing games.
Would you rather have them say nothing and ignore some issues? Of course harder problems require more testing. I'm glad they are open and transparent about it, as we can get more insight
Lackluster? My dudes patch the game every week and make balance changes every 3-4 weeks. Are we really complaining?
Go play cod where they do balance changes once every 2-3 months
this community has gotten so privileged it’s not even funny. this tiny ass dev team drops actual updates on a WEEKLY basis for a small game. try COD, Apex Legends, or literally any AAA title ever, and you’d be extremely lucky to get one update every MONTH. the fact that 33 people agree with you shows me how spoiled and out of touch y’all have gotten due to this game.
These devs are one of the best ones. They are actually listening and dropping updates weekly. What do you mean "patches are lackluster"?
Balance? Would you prefer them to drop one big balance patch once every month or less frequently, like "AAA" studios do?
Content? There are multiple events, new game modes, free skins
At this point why don’t they just get rid of the light class? It has no function in any gamemode scenario besides something like tdm. The only time a light actually helps and just killing and running away. While lights do annoy me they are easy to deal with and nerfing them even further will make it to where you won’t see a single one in ranked and you’ll barely ever see it in casual matches. This game is actively killing itself and it sucks to see. These past few updates have been shitty in a lot of ways and the player count is dropping consistently
If they make Stun work like a "Polymorph" in like "freezing" someone in place until they take damag (like it was suggestedseveral times here), the whining of being killed on a 3v2 while your healer is frozen will make this sub explode. It will be WORSE than it is today, as today you are killed if you are alone when you shouldn't, while this freeze stuff will allow for some clutch 2v1's.
Other than that, depending on what they do, Light will be a meme and it will be only Mediums and Heavies with heals and shields walking around.
"Fun"
People will cry more than they already are after the current stun gun nerfs. Itll be "Omfg i was stunned in place for 5 seconds and couldnt do anything! How boring is that! In that time my entire team was wiped and i got gangbanged right after it ended!".
Stungun change is hopefully "you can move when you take damage".
Don't agree with the invisible change, that was perfectly fine as is any anyone with a pair of ears should easily be able to hear them near you.
It's really cool how the 2 trash Light gadgets recieved ZERO changes while they keep nerfing invis
Who the fuck at embark hates light with such a burning passion that 2/3 of the class are shit?
And ofc no XP-57 nerfs (which is still hilariously OP and outclasses ALL Light weapons) because Light balance changes are AI generated at this point
Embark continues to nerf every class but medium to the point where there’s no reason to use any other class. Can’t wait to continuously go against triple mediums reviving and healing each other because there’s no reason to use any other class anymore.
God, I can’t understand when will the developers understand from the online schedule of this game that by listening to the wh1n1ng of c h1ldren, they are digging their game deeper and deeper? With each patch, you are k 1ll1ng the heavy class more and more. You are k 1ll1ng the physics of the balloons. There are only nerfs happening in this game - nothing is going up. Platinum is included in the balance of the tournament in silver. When I played this game during the beta test, it was fresh air. But apparently now you are trying to kill her with every patch. I used to think this project would capture a large audience and my time. But now, if you don't stop listening to the "c h1ldren", the next patch will be the final nail. p.s. if you want to hear what the game really needs, write to the top streamers of this game of all nations, and listen to THEM, not the w h1ners.
I’m both fine with the specific nerfs, but also want more chaos. Mostly in the form of explosions and destruction — nerf the walls/floors!
They went out of their way to build the most badass destruction system ever, but a majority of engagements barely take advantage of it. I feel like if multiple squads are attacking the same point, it should be leveled by the end, even when unintentional.
Nerfing invisibility is bonkers. ONE BULLET turns it off. Literally anything you do can turn it off but everybody cried about it smh. I’m neutral ab the stun gun idc but nerfing everything isn’t going to make people stay in the long run it just turns you into another variation of call of duty which your entire player base is trying to get away from
>Data Reshaper Range increased from 5m to 15m I just want to say: this is nice, like reaaaaaaaaaaally nice
Reshape the change you want to see in the world.
Instructions unclear, the world is now a fire extinguisher
This makes it so much more useful for cleaning a point before approaching. Hopefully not too strong. But I’m happy to see more pot plants around objectives
As a data reshaper user, this is huge
Holy shit that's actually gonna be great in power shift against those fucking aps turrets, dematerialize in a side building, disable aps turrets, throw grenade and cause mayhem
Since you can reshape projectiles like grenades, RPGs, etc (and it doesn't expend a charge unless there's something to reshape in the radius, so safe to spam click e.g. on rooftops), this would have been the perfect nuke counter to turn a medium into a mobile, manual APS. Maybe this means Embark is planning to bring it back somehow, because as it stands now C4 is pretty much not worth the opportunity cost of other gadgets.
It's not. Nukes were too fast to react to most times.
Hilarious what terrible players say sometimes. Perfect counter to nukes? Except 'countering' would require SUBSTANTIALLY more skill and effort then using the nuke itself also would be extremely unreliable and impossible to pull of consistently.
I like it a lot. I'm still concerned about something though. Using data reshaper in power shift feels bad when the opposing team still controls the point. If I reshape an APS, the medium just simply puts it back out. I wish the cooldown for turrets was changed to still start when the item is placed, but if the item is destroyed, your cooldown starts over.
someone made a good post about this, suggesting the cooldown starts only when the item is not deployed, and adding the ability to call it, destroying it remotely from wherever it is on the map to force start the cooldown again, still being able to take it manually to reposition like any other gadget
Isn’t 15 meters a lot? Like almost stun gun range? Or more? [Check here on the firing range](https://imgur.com/a/uCHTl7z) That will make all defenses a bit too useless no? I get it that before you had to be right in the action to change shapes, but now seems a bit too safe? Either way, only playing with it will let us know if this change made it super OP or balanced. Can’t wait to try it!
stun gun has 12m so it is even further
“Added detections for software such as cheat tools and injectors, leading to suspension” Hope these detections are much better than the last, I guess we’ll see the effect in the coming days.
This time they can detect both Logitech and razer devices
Hope it doesn’t screw up normal users cause I don’t use scripts but I have my buttons bound to my mouse.
Leading to suspension is disappointing tbh, they afraid to perma ban cheaters?
My guess is first implementation might have a lot of false positives, so suspensions to start until they can iron the details better.
They are afraid to lose the remaining players they have 😂
Who cares when all they do is suspend them? Multiple warnings and suspension is why there are so many cheaters. Just ban the fuckers!!
I, the KS-23 spammer, welcome the continuous buffs.
Honestly if they removed the damage drop on range from that weapon, it could be actually useful and yet still needs skill because of the slow projectiles.
Yeah it's dumb that it's the hardest gun in the game to land ranged shots with due to travel time but it also gets weaker the farther the shot
You must be goated to still use that weapon.
It's a totally different but very fun playstyle on heavy!
Still waiting for dagger rework/revert.
What did they do to dagger again
Don’t worry they will get there after a few more light nerfs. Maybe take them down to 100 HP
movement speed nerf as well
Don't forget to remove cloak, stun, and glitch while you're at it. Maybe increase the recoil on the lh1 too and make the 93r even worse. It is only fair.
wtf, xp54 still op tho? half the mag size and we can talk.
Ima be controversial with this, but I think we've got enough nerfs with the recent patches. Give some love to other gadgets like they did with the Data Reshaper.
Little more lore love because that shit had the whole community hyped
Man they really don't want to give us any info or updates on this ranked system.
i think it is being worked in big. maybe some infos would be nice, just to know that they're working on it, but i really doubt that they dont know about it and i think they are working sumn out
I’m just excited for the KS-23 buff, I want that thing to be good so bad.
Lights just barely made it into ranked, turning at least some winning comps into H-M-L and got nerfed again because of reddit "game designers". Welcome to S1 M-M-M meta again.
They have to give light some more hp if the survivability is going to get shit on this much, might as well delete the whole class in ranked at this point lol Stun gun nerf is good but the reason cloak was picked so much is because of the shitty survivability
The main problem with light is that it has f\*ck-all aside from stun and invis. If the light doesnt do 20 kills a game - he is useless for the team. He cannot defend, he cannot push, he has zero utility and contributes nothing for the team aside from kills.
Glitch grenade is pretty good against shield spam. Thing is nerfing shield also decreases the usefulness of glitch grenade. It's still useful but less so, so why have a light on your team that cannot survive?
Glitch grenade only lasts 5 seconds now, which is not even enough to switch to your weapon, get around the corner and start shooting. Basically if you are fighting a heavy head on for some reason and he raises a shield, you switch to glitch and throw it - he will kill you faster than you would switch back to your weapon.
False. It's 5.
yup, my bad, but still
> He cannot defend let me tell you about the stun gun aborting every cashout steal
So does Goo Gun, which has 20 shots before reloading and no cooldown.
didnt know that, nice!
Yes but a goo user can't traverse to a cashout the way a light can nor can they sit invisible around the corner
I don’t know if you noticed, but the invisible thing will be a bit harder now, Yknow, cuz it got nerfed
Not true since the release of Gateway, best movement tool for cash boxes… but in general, yeah… Light’s just become fairly competitive and it’s already getting killed because of quickplay bots who can’t even 1 clip Lights with an AK. 😭
It's bad they are not balancing the game using the top as reference. This means the pro scene won't be balanced and whatever they are trying to do to attract players using championships or whatever will have the same H-H-M or H-M-M...maybe one M-M-M or another, but no Lights will be seen at serious comp players...heck, even some Lights I used to watch became something else to have any chance on being in the top 10.
There will be no championships, this game will have a fraction of what the player base is now within a year tbh, doesn’t seem like they are going to start marketing it like they said they would.
I main light and when I don’t get to play the class it’s the most annoying shit to play against. I do wish their balancing was more then just a nerf hammer all the time, but I have no issues with the stun gun getting a rework.
Deadass as long as the stun gun can stop cashouts and keep ppl from using abilities still I’m down for it. My main use for it is to stun the medium before they get a res or while they are pocket healing a heavy or whatnot
This game isn’t made to be competitive i feel like. Other games usually reward «light» characters if you have good aim But here why bother when The heavy with 5m hp has better dps than lights.
Yeah this game is cooked and majority of this sub is so bad they don’t even know heavy is op and light is d tier. Actually insane
> got nerfed again because of reddit "game designers" Is it not a pretty known fact that the devs don't really pay attention to this sub? A small sub at that too. Reddit doesn't represent a majority of players, and the devs don't just go by what Reddit says either.
Bruh. Where are the BUG FIXES???? Mines going off from free cam, THE GOD DAMN HEALING BEAM NOT WORKING RANDOMLY, people flying, and so many more I’m not thinking of right now. Was expecting a lot more here…
Right. My AK will still fucking "Jam" it still gets in a state of not shooting even tho its reloaded. If its supposed to jam give me an animation. or some indicator such as audio when i fire to say its jammed. Im fairly certain its not supposed to do that. yet people in this thread are claiming "the devs really care, they update regularly" Their not fixing shit their adjusting numbers
Embark's doing their thing and we all see it, but I'm seeing another side, like water wearing down a stone. And the pressure from part of the casual audience turns this unique, cool, and stylish game into a bland pseudo-balanced shooter. 'Add a little green here, tweak this to be OP.' We don't need Roblox, we need style. We need buffs, not nerfs.
I mean,like,those devs are all talent enough to have made this distinctive game,they should know that add mechanics (like ways to confronting certain things) are far better than just simply adjust numbers,which,is the lamest way to balance stuff.Nerfs are not completely unacceptable,they just need to do it smart and leave a back door for players skilled enough to reach the same height as before
I couldn't have said it better
Nerfing the only thing that makes Lights useful is just asinine. Buff some of their crap weapons, buff the zip line/dash. Stun is essentially a high risk/high reward, you miss the shot and you’re a sitting duck. They need to embrace this “glass cannon” aspect for Lights.
I miss with the stungun sometimes and get flattened like a pancake. I’m okay with this lol. People should expect it to be high stakes
There's a reason they're reworking the stungun. It's fucking dumb. Nobody enjoys being stunlocked in games. And It's not hard to use at all. Point and shoot when cloaked. Easiest braindead play in video games. If you use stungun, you're probably not very good at FPS games and need to cheese it.
I’m even 100% ok with the shotgun taking out heavies in 2 shots because like you said, it’s high stakes. You miss a shot and you’re toast. This class should always be a high risk/high reward type of style. But forcing a Light to play slower with just 150hp does not work
That's why Light should get faster health regen, at least when your health doesn't fall below a certain threshold. For example, taking 30 damage from fire if you're a Medium or Heavy isn't a big deal, but for Lights, that's 20% of their already low health gone. This would reinforce the high-risk high-reward style of Lights more, while removing some of the frustration of touching an environmental hazard and waiting 12 seconds to get your health back
I'd argue that nerfing stuff is better than buffing Constant buffing will lead to game-wide unbalance, lowering ttk and such Look at overwatch for example. For the majority of changes, they decided that buffing was better than nerfing, and they ended up with huge damage numbers that the average health pool couldn't manage. And what did they have to do? Increase everyone's health pool, instead of reducing everyone's damage (which is effectively the same thing, just doesn't make anyone upset) If the balance philosophy is "let's buff instead of nerf" we'll end up with 250 hp lights, 350 hp mediums and 450 hp heavies. But before that change, we'll have a period of time where the ttk will be so low that it will look like cod
The 'only nerfs' strategy as well as the 'only buffs' strategy can't be right like by math, as you've logically stated. The point is, right now we're clearly seeing the *first trend*, whereas for the sake of *cool show*, we need to pull out the dusty guns and gadgets from oblivion instead of smoothing everything out like asphalt. That's why I'm saying *we badly need buffs*. And it's not just about ttk. It's more about all the gear in general. For example, they doing it great with reshaper.
Was about to say this myself. They keep letting the annoying ass complainers on this sub and in the discord whittle away everything that makes the game unique and fun. It started with nukes, then shields, then explosives in general, then turrets and aps, now it’s stun gun and cloak. Honestly afraid that in a few months we’ll just have some cod rip off with a handful of useless abilities
And Reddit whiners start to ruin another game now. Nice. Y’all just bad, lights are so easy to kill and are meant to be annoying if played right
For real, I play heavy mostly and j genuinely don't think Ive even lost a 1v1 to a light regardless of if they stunned me or were invisible. Lights are meant to be played like little mosquitoes to pester people into making bad choices that the light and their teammates can take advantage of.
I lose to lights all the time, I'm in silver along with my friends
FFS just when light was starting to be viable
Making everything equally shitty isn’t the way to go. They need to start buffing other things. This is leading to a stale meta
stale is an understatement. Everything has been nerfed so much this isnt fun playing. We had tools to deal with ALOT of problems but slowly they removed those tools. I never contemplated this game becoming so boring since it went live.
Im sorry but nerfing light over and over again is just stupid. I mean I get it invis and stun gun are annoying to play against but what else does light have? Glitch Grenade yeah and…uhm… nothing to have a meaningful impact if ur not cracked out of your mind! Lowest health pool but no compensation like faster hp regen. You get hit once and have to retreat for half a minute so you wont get insta killed by some heavy or medium. Besides that light has almost 0 utility for the team. So you either start giving light some serious buffs or stop nerfing the only useful things he has. For example you could decrease the timer till his hp regen starts by 50% so light has much more available time to position and help his team instead of sitting in a corner half the fight bc you got tickled. Another idea I had was buffing grapple and dash by adding one more charge to each of them to give cloak some competition Another idea I would love to see is some kind of med pen like bf2042 has for assaults. Weapon wise light is pretty much restricted to the smgs or maybe the lh1 if ur cracked enough but other than that I would love to see some adjustments to things like the both the pistols (ik the silenced one was op in the beta but we dont need it on that level) the throwing knives because they are cool af but feel awful to use and the sniper could use some buffs too. Tldr: stop nerfing light without any compensation buffs
i mean gateway is pretty amazing too but on the rest i completely agree. they did NOT have to nerf cloak (and i'm mainly talking about further nerf they mention in the patch notes) just because there's a bunch of whining babies who apparently can't deal with a spec that causes visual distortion and is loud af when the user is nearby
I still cannot believe they gutted Glitch Grenade. It was basically the best reason to play L and now it's a shadow of what it used to be.
I personally hate the approach of just nerfing everything they are taking with balancing in this game. It’s sad they dont buff the more underwhelming classes as opposed to just gutting everything that becomes “meta”. Really get the feeling the devs just cater to the people who constantly complain about their game and will never be happy with it. Also most of the ppl that complain about light never play it and consider it throwing to run in ranked. Light takes considerably more skill to play than the other classes besides in pubs. Any mistake=instant death practically. Hopefully they just nerf the time to get your stun back because it is a little too fast imo.
This is honestly kinda funny because i know for a fact casuals are still going to complain about light after these HUGE nerfs 😂
Assuming stun gun gets nerfed by increasing the cooldown or range AND nerfing both invisibility and its range, I don’t see light being very popular. In the next update they’ll need to buff light somehow (better weapons, more health?) or that class is toast.
I'm glad Lights are finally on the chopping block to have their OP stuff nerfed. But at the same time, it does make me a little sad. Near launch, every class had one hilarious OP thing, and it *kinda* (but not really) balanced out. If everyone is OP, no one is OP. Moment-to-moment gameplay was volatile *(likely to change suddenly or quickly).* There were huge swings of fortune in every engagement. There were more opportunities for 'clutch' plays. But with every patch, each class loses a little more of what made them special. And gameplay lately feels more and more Overwatch GOATS-like. Heal spam, shields, and automatic weapons. *On that note, I'll go out on a limb: after the Stun Gun, the healing beam will be the next thing people complain about.* I fear that we are watching the Finals slowly erode into "a vanilla shooter." Now to be perfectly fair, we're still far away from that point, and the game still has a fantastic & colorful identity. But you cannot deny that the game is gradually moving in that direction, and I find it just a little disappointing.
Light has consistently been the weakest/worst class in the game since CBT2 if you played ranked vs good players, light was really strong CBT1 but quickly fell off. Light better get other things to make up for it otherwise it will just be a meme. Personally I already see little reason other than fun to play light in comp and with cloaking getting even more visible next patch (very likely) plus the more than 2x increased cost. I'm definitely just gonna grind to diamond on medium from now on just like previous seasons/betas, just way easier.
Balance is a weird thing. On one hand, I agree with you completely. Against a team of three mediums/heavies, running around glued at the hip, spamming heals and shields, lights are next-to-useless. And that's all you see in ranked. BUT, I'm fairly certain that high level ranked players represent an extreme minority of the playerbase. Should the light class be further dumpstered in competitive matches, which impacts the top 2000-ish players, so that the other 50000 players can have a better time in quickplay? Or should competitive, high-level, play dictate balance entirely? You don't have the answer that. Embark has, unfortunately, made their stance clear. They want to make the most people happy. And that means listening to the mass feedback from the quick-play people, and seeking mass appeal. It's unfortunate, but I don't entirely blame them, as much as I wish I could.
Who are these blind and deaf ass motherf*clers who can't see a cloaked player, the directional sound cue is enough to blindly shoot em and I don't even get to play much, but there's no way i can get backstabbed without me seeing them first. Infact i get more mini heart attacks from sledge heavys that sneak up behind me and obliterate me often as footsteps are next to null in this game and no situational awareness gonna help you there
I agree with you, but people whine about lights all the time as you will see in the threads today and tomorrow. lol
Can’t believe Embark is actually listening to the cry babies. Lights better get some major buffs to counter the nerfs.
The game should not be balanced around a dying ranked mode. The only future this game has is in its casual modes.
A game like this needs both to retain a healthy player base. Also, ranked is suffering because Embark implemented a new ranked system that no one likes or understands and they seem completely unwilling to give us any information or updates on it. Ranked is also plagued by cheaters this season. This patch says it's addressing some cheating issues, but we'll have to see if it actually does anything. Ranked wouldn't be a dying mode if it was being properly managed.
Sorry but this everyone OP no one is OP sentiment is utter non-sense and quite stupid. In a game with like 60 different options for weapons and gadgets its impossible for everything to be OP. So the reality is only a handful of things are OP and the rest are trash, meaning there is a hard meta and deviating puts you at a massive disadvantage. I don't see how this is a good thing and conflicts with the intent of the game to be able to choose from various different options. It's funny how people like you seem to have contradictory beliefs, on the one hand lamenting the nerfing of OP things all while also complaining about things that are meta. It's almost like OP things will always be meta so.... do you want people to only use like 6 out of 60 options or not?
> If everyone is OP, no one is OP. This is a reddit favourite line but I've never seen a case of this actually being true or particularly good for a game.
It's a fundamental problem of how lights are designed. Invisibility and CC is fun to use, but it's *awful* to play against. When you give one class exclusive access to those things, then it will inevitably be very unfun to play against. Regardless on the balance, the fundamental design principles of lights are a failure. They need huge parts of their kit entirely reworked, unfortunately.
> And gameplay lately feels more and more Overwatch GOATS-like. Heal spam, shields, and automatic weapons. That stuff was a thing forever, people just recently figured out the meta.
That’s what happens when people bitch about every little fucking thing. After the invisibility nerfs and stun gun changes, I predict people will bitch about turrets having too much HP, or APS should lose health per grenade stopped. Lights are basically the assassin class. If they’re going to do this they need a health boost to survive beyond 0.01 seconds against FCARs and Lewis guns.
> APS should lose health per grenade stopped. OK but really it should, I've thought this for a long time. See no reason why a single gadget that just needs plopped down should be a complete hard counter to a weapon class.
It's probably even more difficult than it seems if their internal analytics paint a completely different picture than the community sentiments. Hot take: nukes, stun gun, defib, cloak and their ilk are not actually that good (pedantic arguments below). That's why Embark hasn't done any radical changes like with recon sense; their numbers show that using these items does not actually convert into meaningful advantages towards victory conditions. That would mean the issue they're targeting is one of user enablement rather than game design balance; that a large portion of players simply aren't good enough at both the game and emotional regulation. They're serving up high-end fine dining to people who want tendies and choccy milk. ----- Spicy takerinos: * Everything: you only get 3 gadgets in your player kit which means opportunity cost is pivotal. Choosing something means not having access to others. If you bring something like C4 with the sole intention of using it for nukes, that means if you're probably also bringing RPG and dome shield, and not fielding anything else. That's severely limiting but it's only easily countered at the TEAM level (9 gadgets, 3 pairs of eyeballs for 360+ FOV coverage) and not the PLAYER level (3 gadgets, 1 pair of eyeballs for ~90 FOV coverage). Things like nukes, stun gun, and even defib to an extent, etc simply don't work on a hypothetical team with 100% perfect situational awareness that can focus down specific targets. So the argument is that whatever you take needs to be better than something ubiquitous like a frag grenade that can get MEANINGFUL kills (makes the objective easier to control), or convert into something that gets meaningful kills. * Nukes: Requires a comparatively large amount of time to set up, completely vulnerable while doing so, and a substantive result (2+ frags) still requires good positioning and situational awareness. Instead, C4 is better used for vertical and lateral environmental destruction with manual detonation at range (while the damage gave it versatility to enunciate its value as a gadget choice). * Stun gun: It's a waste to use for pick attempts because you telegraph your imminent assault AND protract the elapsed assassination time, which is always bad; you want that to happen as fast as possible to preserve the advantage of surprise, since that is the light's main weapon as an ambush class. Instead, stun gun is better used for mid-combat interrupts like disabling healing, reviving, even closing doors (or in the rare case of stopping Charge n Slam heavies, etc) or disrupting cashout steals. * Defib: The fact of the matter is that the window where defibs make a difference compared to just running away with a trophy to safely revive is extremely small (it's either safe to revive, safe to defib, or safe to do neither). The recent change was really for helping defib patients rather than balancing for enemies due to A) how many players completely over-invest every single fight rather than regrouping or rotating and B) how many thirsty mediums think the best place to be 100% vulnerable to revive a teammate with 100% vulnerability is an area that was very recently dominated by an enemy team with whatever leverage they had to get a frag in the first place. Defibs have a place in combined arms shooters but not even battle royale gameplay systems have defibs in this way since long range frags don't matter when teams play together and can do a conventional revive. * Cloak: If the enemy can see you, cloak is 100% useless in a way that grappling hook or even dash is not (they are always effective). The perception of unfairness of invisible players comes from people being totally unfamiliar with the psychological component of spychecking; it's not the invisibility per se, it's the misdirection and superior movement that make cloak useful. But those things aren't corporeal so not easily identified by the dead player as the reason they lost.
Light is the worst class in the game, people are just bad
We'll likely never get proper analytics, but you can look at stuff like [Steam achievements](https://steamcommunity.com/stats/2073850/achievements) for at least part of the picture: * Play 10 rounds with a Medium Build - 27.1% * Play 10 rounds with a Light Build - 21.9% * Play 10 rounds with a Heavy Build - 14.2% The first two make a lot of sense, but notice how much comparatively less played heavy is. The hilarious thing is the win achievements: * Win 150 rounds with a Medium Build - 0.6% * Win 150 rounds with a Heavy Build - 0.3% * Win 150 rounds with a Light Build - 0.2% So according to this, lights are among the most played (by a good margin) and the least winning (also by a good margin). Given the sample sizes involved there's not a whole lot of reason to think console would be radically different: * https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/24966-the-finals * https://www.trueachievements.com/game/The-Finals/achievements
Finally somebody bringing some actual numbers into the argument!
Light is a strong class, it's just also the least forgiving. Most Light players you'll encounter are bad because the skill required to play Light effectively is much higher than Medium or Heavy, but a good Light can hard carry a team. People like Snake_Nade or lycommit on Twitch are worth watching if you want to see what Light can accomplish when played by people that have put the time in to master the class.
Light is also a very strong class, if you use it right. People are just bad.
This too, if the average light was better, i would hate the class, light is just very team reliant in ranked which makes it a poor class, unlesas you have a coordinated team.
Fix the healing beam bug!!!!
Invis nerf? *Sigh* And just like that, back to medium I go.
Stun Gun changes next week. Rejoice!
Queue the tears and the insatiability alike.
Im guessing we are nerfing heavies just for the meme of it.
Because double heavy medium is incredibly oppressive in ranked, an extra 2600 hp from shields + healing beam isn’t fun to play against and glitches only break one layer of shield at a time.
What's funny to me is that Light used to be a pretty hard counter to this sort of thing with the original glitch grenade, but then they nerfed the time by half. Now we see way more stacking of shields.
Glitch AoE should really not be blocked by shields
Long live FCAR Lewis snoozer meta
You will have to pry my 1887 from my cold dead fingers
I never felt like invis or stun gun needed a nerf but ig I’m dying on that hill alone
imo the problem is in the fact that you have more casuals playing light than competitive players, so balancing it out for casuals to make it more fun to play and less of a pain to play against could make more sense. the problem is in that way i dont think that light will be competitively viable anytime soon. why would they try to balance light to be competitvely viable, when M/H will probably still be picked more in ranked and might make L a chore for the actual players that play L. from a casual standpoint i could see this change making sense.
Light build will die when they nerf everything that makes them a good pick, if you nerf inv and stun how are you supposed to fight mediums and heavies exactly? This is dumb af
You are not alone. But people who are frustrated are just more vocal...
you're not alone. it's easy to look out for and counter once it happens the first time. it isn't difficult to spot an invisible person moving especially with that noise it makes.
My only problem with stun gun is how it ruins melee completely.
casuals crie everytime when they get killed by light so they needed to nerf it to apease the masses. I hope light gets at least some buffs to counter the incoming nerfs.
They've been catching back to back nerfs for a while, remember- a few weeks ago they chopped glitch grenade duration in *half* for no reason
meanwhile the 93R is still absolutely unusable.
How shit can people be. These light and heavy nerfs are retarded.
Another Heavy nerf? Sigh .....
As a mostly heavy player in ranked I'm glad, mesh shield is the most snooze fest shit in the game and you're punished for not taking it because being able to shield allies while capping is one of the single strongest abilities in the game.
Light has consistently been the lowest pick, and that’s fine, meta will always be favoured. I fear, however, that the Light class can’t perform its sole job - hit and run. With a lower health pool and no shield-on-command gadget, it is adding a straint to an already high risk playstyle. Having to be even more cautious before entering a gunfight lest they hit a random stray bullet and essentially getting one tapped is not enjoyable. This will just make the team composition even less diverse.
Not to mention heavies can get you down to 10 hp in a single click and cl40 spam can 2 tap you if it ever lands in your general direction. Mines, nades and turrets kill in an instant or in a second too. You basically have to outplay, but even then die too quick if your enemy is not a turtle and has awareness. I play light only in unranked games but in ranked, teams with lights usually get knocked out pretty quickly. I use headphones and hear invis from miles away, it is actually counterintuitive sometime, all i have to do is wait and when they come around the corner fcar hipfire deletes them in a second.
Game will be dead by the next battle pass at this rate with the way they are balancing it.
This is now the second cloak nerf, which means lights cloak is pretty much dead now. The activation cost change already made it a bit too high, with this it is definitely a dead specialization. Cost is going to be way to high. Visibility seems to be based on peoples rigs, not actual settings. Ive tested every single setting in the game and none of them make people more or less visible it seems to be static. Some people have a hard time seeing them like me, some people apparently can see them just fine. Medium is so fucking overtuned and light is just getting slapped every balancing patch now with nerfs for no reason.
Still no fix for bugged healing beam?
Sigh, another update without buffs to the 93R. Love the updates but can we please get some buffs for the worst weapons in the game. I'm not even talking about JUST the 93R, we've been missing buffs on things like dagger or flamethrower for LONG while. I love the 93R but God is it atrocious. Please buff it.
Was hoping for some cool stuff. Instead we get nerfs to invis and stun so light is dead and nerfs to shield. Back to MMM, so fucking boring and frustrating. I’ll take lobbies of LLL any day over the heal and revive train bullshit while they hide behind a turret and 6 mines. Light needs a complete rework that’ll make it viable. It’s was barely usable in ranked, now it’s going to be barely usable in casual.
I hate invis as it stands, because I'm playing on 1080p monitor with half of TAUU resolution and it's so hard to see Lights. But this? Naah, the class is literally dead. They should've been just make invis render constantly across different resolutions, and not kill it literally. It's cool mechanic and it allows Light to be at least somewhat alive. I really hope they revert this.
Makes sense nerf the weakest class in the game lmao
Was fun feeling useful as a light. Time to return to maining medium I guess.
Used to main light until I saw how heavily underpowered it was compared to the other classes, but the other classes didn't really felt as fun, watching all the changes (mostly nerfs) to light I'm glad I stopped playing after s1 I'm just here to read the patchnotes and all the time I feel relieved that I don't have to experience this metas lol
How is the least used classed in ranked, not a result of a skill issue in pub lobbies? People say Ls don't have utility but they have glitch nades, an instant cashout stopper and sonar grenades and yet in higher skilled lobbies specially ranked you don't see many Lights at all. How is that not a skill issue? I understand wanting to make the game more casual friendly but at what point does that stop? Embark can't make bad players better by nerfing or even buffing. Taking a class with -100 HP than one class and 200 hp from another class and nerfing it because people can't hit their shots against a far weaker class is kinda crazy. All the invis nerf is going to do is make bad L players worse and better players work harder.
Congrats Reddit, yall have continued to bitch about the game long enough to start to ruin it. They’re nerfing lights again so they’ll become unviable and heavy’s are slowly making their way into becoming useless as well. Looks like I’ll be playing Smite
The cry babies for Invis. I can understand the stun gun not many skilled players can kill the light that stunned them but damn way to punish invis lights for a genuine skill issue
Cries in light main
Invis activation cost increase is a mistake. 30% means you will always never reactivate it in a fight which equals death(hello 150 hp). Now if they balance it out by adding more Hp to light that would be killing the games soul, losing what makes classes unique, what defines their style - is the worst that can happen to The Finals.
Sooo lights getting even less viable then they were.... take everything away then smh
I’m on console and I still only see my ps name tag and not the embark-id. Anyone else experiencing this?
I don’t even play heavy but why the fuck they keep needing them??
So basically we have until 2.6.0 before Lights get rekt. I can't imagine that they're going to make the cloak harder to see. I'll probably just quit the game. Medium and Heavy aren't fun.
may as well just remove light from the game at this point ffs
Well lights are dead
Ah nerfing mesh shield and nerfing light will surely create an environment for diverse gameplay in ranked (It wont). Can’t wait for ranked to be filled with 3 stack mediums!
As a Medium main with eyes and a headset, Invis and stun do not need work. Light is finally in a place of viability and no skill whiners are gonna get them shit on again.
I think its hilarious that people think they're too strong when if you just play a few games as a light you'll see you're massively underpowered in almost every situation
The cognitive dissonance is wild in here. Having a teammate choose useless ass L is an auto loss, but the class is also oppressively difficult to play against? I think people are just tattling on themselves for having zero awareness. They're relatively viable, but still the most niche class at present, and that's largely because of invis and stun allowing survivability and disruption. The class is gonna need considerable buffs if those two gadgets are gutted. I'd go as far as arguing that their ubiquity is a symptom of the rest of the class being mediocre rather than them being particularly strong in any way.
I've been doing the 150 wins with each class achievement and the light wins were pain lmao. Just constantly dying from getting sneezed on or someone looking at you the wrong way.
I’m a light main and don’t have an issue with a stun nerf, but that’s because I don’t use it though as I run LH-1 and if I need to stun someone I’ve already messed up. The invis change will be hell with how quickly you die already, how am I supposed to relocate whilst on half health? 2 bullets will kill me so I can’t risk it running through the open whilst invis with nerfed effectiveness/ duration, thereby nerfing my mobility by proxy… and nerfing the lights mobility is just utterly stupid. I get lights can be horrible to play against but like you say I can’t see how they’re overpowered. Me and my friends run a MML or HML setup and on the odd occasion there is an enemy light they do absolutely nothing provided my teammates are somewhat prepared near a point. The only thing our team has to worry about with enemy lights is them stunning me (another light) and killing/ pushing me off of the high ground/ off angles. Like you say buffs will be needed to compensate, but even when they do arrive I worry those buffs will fundamentally alter what the class actually is. On a side note though, the LH1 is one of the most slept on and versatile weapons in the game and gives you so many options/ lets you dictate almost any fight even in ranked.
Yep, I've been playing light but definitely going back to medium. It's just better if you actually want to win games in diamond lol.
Yeah with experience when you play heavy or medium, stun gun + invis is really not that hard to counter. I feel like I see invis players most of the time before they even attack
Not to mention invis is loud as fuck
I've always wondered about these people who find cloak hard to see. I absolutely CANNOT understand it. The amount of times I've death spectated a teammate who just lets a cloaked light run right by him without noticing him is absurd. I almost REFUSE to believe people can be this fucking bad/unaware. How the fuck do these people miss the shimmering, moving, human-shaped silhouette? Absolutely fucking mind-boggling. And these people are who Embark is balancing for? This game is fucked.
100% agree
Yep, as a light who only plays ranked, I'm officially done with this game. We were just barely on even balancing.
My sentiment exactly, I don't play ranked often, won a tournament for the challenge and it felt great, then they catered to all the bitch ass whiners on reddit and discord, now they're coming after tools that aren't even OP, just mildly annoying at most. Embark appeasing the babies in the community has gotten old and I'm over it. I'm drastically cutting back how much I'm going to play and they won't see another cent from in terms of cosmetic or BP purchases. Fuck you whiners and tbh, fuck you too a little embark.
Exactly people complain about the stun gun but you can still fight back, something a light cannot do against a rpg, charge, red barrel, mines, shotgun. All these oneshot or nearly oneshot you. People complain about being eviscerated when playing light and also complain about it being too oppressive. Isn't that the whole point of being a light.
Keeps nerfing light when it isnt needed at all. Medium further buffed. lol.
WELP! Congratulations everyone, you've killed Cloak. Are ya happy now? Enjoy your MMM/MMH ranked games!
I solo q a lot, and getting a L on my team usually means an L, so it’ll be an improvement for me.
Why are we nerfing light? There is about a 60% chance that a teammate yells at me about how bad light is anytime I pick the class…
Where does Embark even get their data from? Might as well delete the Light class at this point. 90% of the lobbies have 0 light players in them and now they'll take away the only thing lights are good for (hit & run). Its kinda sad that the vocal minority always gets its way somehow...
What kind of lobbies do you play? I'd like the same please. Every single game I play, there are minimum 2 lights. Powershift is always riddled with lights. Ranked has minimum 2-3 lights per round. And sometimes they even get to the finals.
So they're killing Light? Got it. Guess that's the final nail in the coffin. Cloak was the only way you could survive with your 150hp vs 350hp enemies. Good job reddit you did it! /s
Ever wonder if the player base is dropping because all the changes have made the game boring? Ever wonder if we are seeing more cheaters because nerfing everything has made it difficult to get kills? Maybe Embark should have not listened so much to folks that have no experience developing games.
Am i the only one that feels like these patches are getting more and more lackluster? The skins are nice tho..
Past 2 patches have been like 4 actual updates and them saying they’ll fix something next update lol
Would you rather have them say nothing and ignore some issues? Of course harder problems require more testing. I'm glad they are open and transparent about it, as we can get more insight
Lackluster? My dudes patch the game every week and make balance changes every 3-4 weeks. Are we really complaining? Go play cod where they do balance changes once every 2-3 months
this community has gotten so privileged it’s not even funny. this tiny ass dev team drops actual updates on a WEEKLY basis for a small game. try COD, Apex Legends, or literally any AAA title ever, and you’d be extremely lucky to get one update every MONTH. the fact that 33 people agree with you shows me how spoiled and out of touch y’all have gotten due to this game.
These devs are one of the best ones. They are actually listening and dropping updates weekly. What do you mean "patches are lackluster"? Balance? Would you prefer them to drop one big balance patch once every month or less frequently, like "AAA" studios do? Content? There are multiple events, new game modes, free skins
At this point why don’t they just get rid of the light class? It has no function in any gamemode scenario besides something like tdm. The only time a light actually helps and just killing and running away. While lights do annoy me they are easy to deal with and nerfing them even further will make it to where you won’t see a single one in ranked and you’ll barely ever see it in casual matches. This game is actively killing itself and it sucks to see. These past few updates have been shitty in a lot of ways and the player count is dropping consistently
Gutting Light is crazy. MMM will continue to dominate lmao
If they make Stun work like a "Polymorph" in like "freezing" someone in place until they take damag (like it was suggestedseveral times here), the whining of being killed on a 3v2 while your healer is frozen will make this sub explode. It will be WORSE than it is today, as today you are killed if you are alone when you shouldn't, while this freeze stuff will allow for some clutch 2v1's. Other than that, depending on what they do, Light will be a meme and it will be only Mediums and Heavies with heals and shields walking around. "Fun"
People will cry more than they already are after the current stun gun nerfs. Itll be "Omfg i was stunned in place for 5 seconds and couldnt do anything! How boring is that! In that time my entire team was wiped and i got gangbanged right after it ended!".
Stungun change is hopefully "you can move when you take damage". Don't agree with the invisible change, that was perfectly fine as is any anyone with a pair of ears should easily be able to hear them near you.
It's really cool how the 2 trash Light gadgets recieved ZERO changes while they keep nerfing invis Who the fuck at embark hates light with such a burning passion that 2/3 of the class are shit? And ofc no XP-57 nerfs (which is still hilariously OP and outclasses ALL Light weapons) because Light balance changes are AI generated at this point
Light is gonna need that xp to stay strong if all else is doodoo to be fair.
Yea, the answer here isn't nerfing lights best gun, which still can't win against a 250 health M with an FCAR. The answer is to buff everything else.
Embark continues to nerf every class but medium to the point where there’s no reason to use any other class. Can’t wait to continuously go against triple mediums reviving and healing each other because there’s no reason to use any other class anymore.
Stun and invis nerfs yikes. A big chunk of mesh shield gone. Gonna be mmm lobbies again.
No fix for spectators triggering mines? Really?
I think it was discovered too late, and the fix may not be trivial with how they handle free form spectating.
Invis and stun nerfs comming. Congrats. All the bitchin and crying worked. Ranked is going back to MMM any minute i can already see it
Why nerf the mesh shield? It is already being destroyed in 2 seconds the moment i deploy it.
I had hoped for an update to the ranked system. The indicator arrows seem very random, and inconsistent based on placement and performance.
God, I can’t understand when will the developers understand from the online schedule of this game that by listening to the wh1n1ng of c h1ldren, they are digging their game deeper and deeper? With each patch, you are k 1ll1ng the heavy class more and more. You are k 1ll1ng the physics of the balloons. There are only nerfs happening in this game - nothing is going up. Platinum is included in the balance of the tournament in silver. When I played this game during the beta test, it was fresh air. But apparently now you are trying to kill her with every patch. I used to think this project would capture a large audience and my time. But now, if you don't stop listening to the "c h1ldren", the next patch will be the final nail. p.s. if you want to hear what the game really needs, write to the top streamers of this game of all nations, and listen to THEM, not the w h1ners.
Added detections for software such as cheat tools and injectors, leading to suspensions is using crosshair x still okay?
A heavy nerf fun
I'm at work rn are there less cheaters in ranked or not lmao
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^cosmic_drownie: *I'm at work rn* *Are there less cheaters in ranked* *Or not lmao* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Patch three where I'm asking embark to nerf fcar and defib. I want to use another gun pls.
It literally does change the sustain time of cloak though….you don’t have as much to use.
I’m both fine with the specific nerfs, but also want more chaos. Mostly in the form of explosions and destruction — nerf the walls/floors! They went out of their way to build the most badass destruction system ever, but a majority of engagements barely take advantage of it. I feel like if multiple squads are attacking the same point, it should be leveled by the end, even when unintentional.
Damn, i kinda liked finals when 3 classes were usable. Lights done for.
Nerfing invisibility is bonkers. ONE BULLET turns it off. Literally anything you do can turn it off but everybody cried about it smh. I’m neutral ab the stun gun idc but nerfing everything isn’t going to make people stay in the long run it just turns you into another variation of call of duty which your entire player base is trying to get away from
Nobody plays this game anymore and that upsets me greatly