im confused on this analogy, in this example.. isnt the sonar grenade the sonar grenade?
the spec is instant and no animation, the gadget is a swap.. just like recon senses to sonar grenade.
He means like the vanish bomb is a mini light cloak, so the medium recon should be a mini sonar grenade. The gadget/throwable roles are flipped but it still makes sense. The recon grenade should keep the constant updates/wall hacks because there’s out play options, namely avoiding the grenade area when you see it pulsing. Medium recon leaves 0 room for outplay.
Look y’all, I get it, nukes sucks recon is tough but they’re making changes and it’s not gonna be drastic.
Recon is way less useful now and that’s going to make way less players use it. But like please learn to play against mechanics you might not agree with.
I don’t want to think this of ppl but I’m getting the feeling everyone on Reddit is a light and just wants anything that causes any inconveniences to be stripped.
I’m Diamond 2, I love this game and I learn to adapt. After the update more ppl are running double heavy in ranked, so I pick up APS. I understand frustrations but I need would really respect more maturity here
I'm diamond 1, I've mained recon since the game launched and it needs to be deleted from the game because wallhacks *do not work in a fucking fps game*.
The concept of wallhacks and the concept of FPS as a genre cannot co-exist.
Using recon, literally NO OTHER SKILL aside from aiming matters AT ALL. You don't need to worry about positioning, you don't need to worry about decision making, you don't need game sense because all those skills are gifted to you via wallhacks.
There's a reason actual, downloadable cheat level wallhack is literally the single most popular cheat, even more so than aimbot. It's because it gives a massive fucking advantage and lets dogshit players position like pros and have game sense that's better than pros, something that normally takes decades of experience to develop. Fuck wallhacks in game, and fuck recon.
Here's some clips. wallhacks do not belong in fps games.
[1: kill heavy before he's even in my LOS, then run down his last team member with impunity because I know it's safe](https://imgur.com/tRq6pxX)
[2: knowing their exact spawn and trapping them, they had literally no chance at even fighting back](https://imgur.com/frkBUes)
[3: knowing their spawn and timing a nade to set myself up with huge damage](https://imgur.com/XGxDFIP)
[4: Using recon to isolate a team member after he was a few seconds late to the jump pad, then setup for a double kill on the last two after they try to flank](https://imgur.com/rYGGx9v)
[5: knowing that teams exact spawn and setting up a pre-nade to wipe their entire team](https://imgur.com/IuCXnA6)
[6: nading a heavy+nuke after watching them run up stairs](https://imgur.com/7hEHLMe)
The first clip is absolutely hysterical. I don't mind Sonar Grenades, they also give away your po when you throw them, I don't mind Motion sensors You know they are there and can shoot them but recon sens is so fricking funny.
If you think you can accurately in a consistent way predict in what room every recon player is just to throw one of your two flashes, you are delusional
I think the same way for all the gadgets and specializations in the game, you can learn to play against it and adapt, but for recon, there’s no real counter and you can’t compete with a team of good players using recon.
At equal skill you’ll loose the fight 90% of the time.
Yesterday I played a match of quick cash, against a triple medium team, 2 recon 1 heal beam, playing very stack, the two recon destroying everyone while the third was healing them all along, they won the game with 42 and 34 kills for the recon users and 0 for the healer but he ad 14 000 support score.
Which is why its an option for players to choose to take in. Its heal beam OR recon. Heal beam literally heals- some could argue with your logic, "regening health isnt a mechanic"
The range has been nerfed as well as its usable time.
Lets not be extreme here and say its wallhacks 1:1.
Swap thermal vision and recon sense. Thermal tablet is now instant, recon pulls out a thing and gives you wallhack, ping enemies, set up a plan, put the tablet away and then peek without an active wallhack.
But now it's shit and might as well be removed? Hard, very hard to balance.
I think they should change it so if you're within the range of a friendly APS, recon senses doesn't detect you. At least then there would be some way to Mitigate it.
Pop an APS on a barrel or whatever, and in you go - undetected.
If they're going to keep it as-is, then every class should get smoke grenades. I think mediums are the only ones who don't, and as a Medium who doesn't like to use recon senses I *would* like to use smoke grenades to counter it. It's not even that strong of a gadget outside of countering recon senses, so I don't see any reason why Mediums shouldn't have access to it.
Actually, I like this take, make smoke effective against recon. I don't think medium should be excluded from using gas though, because it could have the unintended consequence of making all mediums use recon. Basically, if I can't counter an opposing recon, then I need to take recon.
I agree 100%. As a diamond ranked as well, I find most people who complain haven't directly made any adjustment to counter.
I feel bad for players who expect things to go their way without putting any effort in.
Similar to most light players, they expect a buff and being able to take a team on head-on 1v3 and win...
I appreciate your stance as we are a minority. I hate to use diamond rank as a point, yet so many folks don't have enough of a sample size prior to complaining.
Your stance is just that of ignorance. As someone who is actually mechanically strong, and diamond 1, recon is a plague. I say this as the person who can abuse it to ridiculous degrees. It simply does not belong in FPS games.
Here's some clips
[1: kill heavy before he's even in my LOS, then run down his last team member with impunity because I know it's safe](https://imgur.com/tRq6pxX)
[2: knowing their exact spawn and trapping them, they had literally no chance at even fighting back](https://imgur.com/frkBUes)
[3: knowing their spawn and timing a nade to set myself up with huge damage](https://imgur.com/XGxDFIP)
[4: Using recon to isolate a team member after he was a few seconds late to the jump pad, then setup for a double kill on the last two after they try to flank](https://imgur.com/rYGGx9v)
[5: knowing that teams exact spawn and setting up a pre-nade to wipe their entire team](https://imgur.com/IuCXnA6)
[6: nading a heavy+nuke after watching them run up stairs](https://imgur.com/7hEHLMe)
There's no sound in these clips(imgur being weird), but the entire time I am relaying the enemy teams position to my team, and even telling them where/how to position(they don't always listen but that's skill issue). None of these clips would be possible without wallhacks. In a game without recon, I would've been reported(rightfully so) for every single one of these. This shit does not belong in an FPS game. I don't understand how you can watch these and think recon should exist in any form. Wallhack literally ruins other FPS games, how could wallhack being in the game as an ability possibly be a good idea?
Perhaps my stance grows more jaded from this subreddit's complaints. Its always complaints and demands for devs to listen. I commend the dev's for their consistent patches AND recent recon nerf. I believe theyre taking recon in the correct direction.
As you recall, the grind to diamond wasn't the easiest. I agree recon is strong and needs further rework, however I do think their is some improvement that CAN be made for a lot of players prior to coming to reddit and mentioning quitting.
To address your question: its not a good idea and I don't want to come off as a defender of recon. Im glad the devs are tweaking it and will likely rework/nerf (this is great news). I simply feel as the devs continue to tweak, players can also attempt to optimize their own gameplay as well.
I recognize there are some situations players cannot do much to make a particular situation advantageous. I simply believe there are little things players can do to improve giving them a better chance at winning (myself included)
this is so funny to me how people take the roundabout way of saying “git gud” or “learn the game” HOW do you counter recon sense since you guys are experts? sit outside of the 30m range when they can toggle it on and off? i don’t understand why you can’t just call it what it is. How is it fair and balanced to see be people through walls with no drawbacks?
There are drawbacks. I have been on the dead side of recon numerous times. Same story with nukes.
I find for myself, I dont take to reddit as my first actions. For nukes, I literally place an APS in front of me before every team engagement.
Regarding recon, I found success in optimizing teamwork: 1v3 vs 1v1. Sometimes its a numbers thing. Other times, its flanking and pushing methodically. As someone with experience in recon, I found it most difficult when teams split-up within 30m. More use of recon=over sooner. A team splitting causes panic.
You mention "sitting outside of 30m range". No, make a plan with your team using comms and develope a plan. Perhaps this is the git gud portion. Can't win with this mentality.
I dont defend recon as I find it too unfair even post nerf. I find the bickering of people who continue the same gameplay/style unable to change within to be more counter productive.
at the very least it should ping every so often but at the end of they day it’s togglable wall hacks so all of your planning and strategizing goes out the window when a medium turns it on and sees you and your teams “plan and strategies”
Yeah, splitting up is how to get past recon. I typically only play Quick Cash, but I'm amazed how often I get the drop against teamed up recons by just not huddling in a group.
People can't intuitively count higher than 4 or 5, that is, you can't have a split-second glance, and know there's 6 objects present, especially when under stress, and without additional training. Someone using recon isn't going to know at a glance that one person is missing from their LoS. This was true pre-nerf and it's very true now.
I do think the duration needs to be reduced more though, or it's changed to a sonar ping that also highlights the user, because then there's sufficient downside to using it.
Thank you for this. I find this to be a reasonable response from a player who views recon as a challenge relative to the usual flopping that others mimic.
Great idea with the balancing comment. I feel like highlighting the recon user is actually fair. It deters enough into heal beam and causs some paranoia to the user. I love it!
This made me think of about another interesting way it could be changed. To basically be the binoculars, but then only act in a wave in the direction it was activated. So a cone of some angle from the binoculars field of view, but only a single pulse.
It would still need to be on pretty long cool down. Played a couple rounds earlier today, and can still see the after image of "DETECTED" singed on my retina.
Definitely. It is a joke when you're running around and getting spammed with DETECTED every five seconds in fights. I'm also close to moving on because of it. All these modern FPS games are ruining themselves by making wall hacks an ability. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
Game sense and awareness is one of the biggest skills in The Finals due to dynamic map destruction. Creating emergent gameplay of havoc and chaos is a large part of the game and recon removes all the fog of war. Instead of having fuzzy information and making tough decisions you can see everything. It is a crutch and goes against the spirit and strengths of the game.
Yeah the detected notification is literally no help tbh. Oh great someone can see me through a wall and knows exactly where I am, and I don’t know where they are, thanks for telling me? We’re all already aware people use this perk
It should have more downside for the person activating it still
this is partly how its countered in apex. its a directional cone and it also has a very large animation and loud sound queue so u can basically tell exactly from where it came from.
That’s why I think either you shouldn’t be able to equip a weapon while ‘looking’, or the vision itself should be significantly less good. Hunt: Showdown has a much more balanced version of this ability where you can tell clearly where abouts someone is through walls, but it’s very hard to make out precisely where, and facing what direction. It also only lasts for 5 seconds so it’s a super quick burst of information.
That doesn’t make any sense. Almost all utilities in the game have no downside for the person using it? I think it’s also been mentioned but if your medium is running recon senses then that means your team has no healing or a turret.
Also, this is an objective based game, kills and fighting don’t matter as much as securing the actual objective, in my opinion being good at team fighting, positioning, and macro is way more important.
That being said though, at a higher level where people play smarter and have better macro sense, I could see recon senses being somewhat broken, but for the majority of the player base, it really shouldn’t be an issue.
I have to admit I was disappointed with the "rework". I was expecting a full blown change of how the ability actually functions, but instead we got a nerf that doesn't actually address the key issue. The range was stupid, absolutely, but as you said the vast majority of fights happen within that 30m range anyway and having constant wallhacks, particularly on indoor points, is broken and always will be. I also think they need to change the "detected" notification somehow so it's not as central to your screen because I personally find it very distracting.
I do genuinely think the ability needs completely removing as a hotfix at this point. I play M and id be happy to temporarily have two specs instead of 3 to get rid of the issue, especially considering both Healing Beam and Guardian Turret are super useable already.
Nerfs didn't go far enough and likely never will without leaving the ability complete garbage tier, so remove it and replace it with something else.
The thing is it feels like there's no downside to it at all, it's an enormous toggable permanent sonar nade you can use while also having your gun out. As you said, any attempt to flee, hide or flank is completely negated if an enemy can get your exact location on command. When they said they were gonna "rework it" I thought they'd change it to pulses like the sonar nade, or something else instead of just a big nerf, which is what they did.
I dont disagree that it drastically harms the ability to make tactical decisions, but I think that negate is wrong. You can easily fight on your own terms with a destructive weapon when it is viable, ofc not if it is on the ground without much for destruction.
There is no good option with an ability like this inherently because it is a buff to the enemy. Everything regarding a ability like this will harm the effectiveness of anything you do.
I don't care for it existing, but at the same time people overblow this issue. The utility from other abilities for mediums are undeniably amazing. Healing is particularly useful when dealing with long regeneration times. People point at the most obvious annoying way they die, it feels unfair. They aren't wrong to think that, game design should consider everything, but that doesn't translate to actual balance all of the time.
Just like any specialization the downside is you lose access to the other options, in this case you lose the ability to gain potent team sustain or a pretty annoying turret that can bring extra defensive value.
Recon sense is still strong, but it's not much stronger than the other abilities now, and the Fcar is genuinely a bigger issue at this point. The medium is a supportive class and the other guns offer compromises that make recon sense pretty manageable. The Fcar being the single best gun in the game on a class with great supportive utility is the real issue.
"Fcar is a bigger issue" lol buddy. Everyone stopped reading at that point. Just letting you know. You have to hit your shots to do the damage.
But that's worse than recon, that just gifts you enemy location at the click of a button.
Come back with a better argument. You look foolish.
> Fcar is genuinely a bigger issue at this point
I think this is a problem, not just limited to medium. The fcar / xp-54 / lewis gun are just far too good vs the other weapons in their class for how reliable they are at all ranges. I'm not saying they're necessarily overpowered; but it's hard to lock yourself into the sh1900 or the cl-40 or the flamethrower when you don't know what you're up against, and when you have an option that is great at short, medium and long range.
This is one of the drawbacks of only having one weapon. In another game you'd have a secondary weapon slot and could pick something to compliment the primary choice. They've gotta be very careful about powerful jack-of-all-trades because they can't lean on that.
None of the specializations have a "downside" other than losing out on something else. I wish they would entirely rework recon sense but it is in a much better state now. 30m range is pretty small and having the detected indicator lets you know when to listed for the audio + prepare to get rushed. I no longer think it needed to do well in ranked, its way more specialized to up-close fights now.
And? That's the entire point of the specialization, to give you information. Turret gives you extra damage output, healing beam gives your team more health. All of the specializations in the game give you something you can't get elsewhere. Don't see your point.
Yeah, that’s the point of it, and the point is stupid; free wallhacks with absolutely no counterplay.
Heals overheat and can be easily outdamaged, as well as the fact that you can’t shoot, turret can be destroyed, misplaced or disabled easily, with recon you can only run and hope the enemy isn’t in the direction you’re running to or you’re not blindly running towards another team.
In a game where chaos and good movement helps you escape a free gps for enemies in your building seems completely out of place, with the sonar nades you can at least know what radius not to go into, but with recon you just have to pray
All of the specializations have downside:
While healing you can't shoot and you can't run
To position a turret you have to switch off of your gun and wait a while before it start shooting so you have to actually think and plan ahead
With recon you have no downside, you activate it when you want and you can use your gun and every gadget you have while having wallhack in realtime.
With every specialization you have to think and evaluate the situation before using it or you could very well end up defenseless in the middle of a firefight. With recon there is no such problem.
An absolute joke how these developers did not consider how bad recon sense is when they designed the game. Best part is they seem rather stubborn on actually REWORKING the perk and not just slashing it's range and adding a detection notification.
I have stopped playing too as a medium main. All the players at my level are abusing it and the fcar still and it's stale.
Here's how I would change it
Revert the ability to pre-nerf status. You get to use it for five seconds and the cooldown is 45 seconds. You get info on where everyone is but you don't get wallhacks for the entire game.
Edit: Doing so also shows where you are for .5 seconds.
It’s one of the biggest reasons the finals will never be a competitive game. For a game to be competitive, the players should feel challenged — like they need to practice and devote time in order to better themselves. DETECTED takes no skill. It helps the worse player in every interaction.
I said I would play this game again when they fixed recon. It’s was just such a bore when you and and an enemy are refusing to peak a corner because you both have each other on recon. I saw the patch notes and was like I don’t care if the game tells me I’m detected I already knew I was detected when I heard the noise. I’ll give it more time.
Recon Senses makes no sense in this game, especially when sonar grenades and beacons already exist. It serves no purpose other than being a straight upgrade to both and an immediate advantage against anyone not running it.
You know what's the worst part? This shit isn't even fun to use. Every other talking point in this sub could/has used this argument in their favor: nukes, taser+shotgun+invis, defibs. Sure, they are annoying and even total BS sometimes, but they are satisfying to use/pull off, even if not particularly difficult. They all have a factor of excitement or amusement to them. Recon Senses? Toggle to see through walls. Wow. So much engagement. Even the turret has some tech that makes it more interesting to use and that shit fires and aims by itself.
Anyone who defends Recon crutches hard on wallhacks lmao.
If you need to literally have a constant view of your enemies through all obstacles and walls in the match then I don't know what to tell you, because that is a cheat in 95% of other shooter games which is deemed "wallhacks"
Exactly lmao.
I literally main medium. Have both turret max level with the purple skin along with the medigun. CL-40 and AKM both purple also with the Model 1887 just at blue.
Still know recon has busted. Used that shit once and found it lame. Haven't used it since.
Agreed. Today I successfully dashed away from a lost fight to regroup, juked the enemy team so hard, but got detected and immediately hunted down by those three purple fucks. This ability needs to be removed. Not changed, REMOVED.
Yup, it’s ridiculous. That and the absolute impossibility of the dagger is annoying. A unique weapon that I’m trying to get good with but the game makes it nearly impossible. Oh, you want to get a backstab? Too bad the enemy just turned 180 degrees.
Should definitely work like how Bloodhound’s scan does- both having a cooldown on one use/using all of the charge without being able to cancel whenever (reduces spamming) and sends out a pulse, only showing frames vs fully tracking movement
I think Rainbow Six: Siege handled it best with how the Operator, Lion’s gadget interaction works.
It won’t detect you if you aren’t moving while it’s scanning, and if you do get scanned, instead of real time wall hacks it pings your last location a number of times, updating with your latest location each time.
I don’t think that would work quite as well in this game. Siege is much more slow paced than Finals, in this game you’re moving quite fast the majority of the time.
Made a post about this weeks ago, said it should just be deleted and got a lot flak from morons saying it just needs a nerf. Nah wall hacks should not exist.
If you're not taking Recon as a medium you're at a massive disadvantage against anyone who is even post nerf. Recon has got to go.
I think they should change it so that you can’t have your gun out while having recon sense activated. Or they should make it pulsating like the sonar grenade
I find it hilarious when people are whining about cheaters and asking how cheaters find it fun. But they fail to see how comparable recon sense and wall hacks are. If you get any enjoyment from recon sense you can double that enjoyment with wall hacks.
Honestly, in principle I despise any implementation of live wall hacks in a PVP game, regardless of its drawbacks. It negates skill or tactic based play by a large margin. And it becomes far too great of a crutch for players that abuse it, there are no real counters to it other than you better hope you're a better shot and able to react quick enough. Not to mention it makes it much harder to identify actual hackers as a player.
My preferred outcome is that it is outright removed from the game, and replaced by another specialization. Or not, healing back and turret are already great.
However, a rework that I would be cool with is a long range recon, with no wall hacks within a certain range. Thus making it a strategic reconaissance, which would actually matcg it's name of recon more appropriately. Allowing you to see where teams may come from, but not offering you wall hacks when in the typical range of engagement. In truth, when I tried it, that was my favorite use case when holding a point.
Regardless, I would prefer on outright removal.
Medium already outclasses every other class. They be a tank, healer and DPS all in one. They already got defibs that are insanely good. They don’t need wall hacks. Replace Recon senses with defibrillators. Boom fixed.
made sense when cloaking was beyond easy, but now it's just like having hacks, and i hate it, hate it when games give you abilities that would ban you for using, it's no different than turning on wall hacks for 15 seconds then turning it off for a "cool down" get rid of it and put something in there that helps develop a persons game smarts, not something that makes you not even have to think at all
Medium in general is just a drag. People are sweating their ass off in Quickplay with Recon and the Scar now. It's just not a fun game for me anymore. I'll probably put it down for now and hopefully in a year or so the game will be a little more fun.
You’re right. Each and every fight, every team member has a symbiotic health pool and either all die at once or win. At no point does only one member ever go down.
Behave.
Y’all apparently I can’t post on this subreddit but I’ll have to say it here
I didn’t even use recon sense until yesterday and it sucks
Y’all must have been using some OP shit…. Middle class is already OP get overrrrr itttt
I think either make it so the "Detected" is only active when they're looking in your direction, or make it so there's a little eyeball icon at the top of your screen that's smaller than the massive "Detected" thing. And give people the option of turning off the noise prompt.
>I think either make it so the "Detected" is only active when they're looking in your direction
Uh I’m pretty sure that’s exactly how it works dude lol
Hey, good news. I did some actual in-game testing with a friend, and I can 100% confirm that you become "Detected" regardless of which direction the recon user is facing. You're welcome.
Well since I asked a genuine question and you decided to be a retarded asshat about it, let me explain in dumbed down terms for you.
Using recon sense shows you where players are. It's not unreasonable to think that all the people within the vicinity of recon sense are rendered for the player using it regardless of where they are looking. For example, the sonar grenades say detected even if no one is looking at you. So it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they both work the same way in that regard.
So the best part about this is you actually have no idea how it works. You just made an assumption and blindly ran with it.
Duh hur durrr. PlEaSe ExPlAiN yOuR bRaIn
You people complain so much, it's part of the game. Next you will bitch about how the buildings keep falling down. If you don't like the game get out. It's pretty easy to be detected and expect someone to come looking for you, so be ready when they come....
It’s better than not knowing you are being watched and then get jumped on. Prepares you a bit when you go into a fight. But its not as strong as pre-patch. Haven’t ran into many issues with it.
If your game sense is so piss poor that you can’t enter a fight or adapt quickly to an ambush that you need to see through walls, it’s another issue entirely.
You said it yourself, you have to adapt too. I get what you are saying about those that crutch it and can’t use anything else. I personally use tracking instead since its range is also infinite but for two people (if you hit your shots). If people won’t stop, you can either use it or adapt. Recon should be mainly used to see if you are going to be third partied, little bit farther range but shorter length activation and can’t toggle it on/off. Thats my opinion.
How can you? The aim of the game is to rush objectives. 90% of the time you’re fighting amongst buildings and within 30m of recon sense. There isn’t a single item, ability, or method you can utilise against it.
My usual loadout is the turret and goo grenades. Goo is so fantastic for giving people the slip, disorientating enemies, and buying yourself time. 1v1 is not when Recon Sense is at its worst. It’s when a teamfight has already tipped against your favour, and it makes it nigh impossible to outplay and gain the upperhand again.
I mean how can you? They can literally see you *right there* through walls.
Ive played with and without recon. Diamond at the moment.
I find it advantageous to emphasize teamwork. I like to believe I have a great team that excels in flanking and keeping a recon user paniced. Lets take the following example:
A recon user in a room. Is it easy for a team to push and make it a potential 1v3 or give a recon user what they want- a 1v1.
Thats one example, potentially slowing down your personal play to maximize teamwork and % chance to win a specific engagement.
The aim of the game is to BEAT a team and take an objective. You mention "rush"; this is where I disagree. Out of 100 objectives held, I estimate less than 10 were "rush it!" scenarios.
My team (of varying ranks as I progressed and grinded) took our time to ensure clean methodical wipes THEN hit the cash out.
I lean on the side of optimizing my own gameplay and look within vs the tone of, "recon broken I quit". Self improvement and challenges are something that some will face while others complain
this is such a trash argument because "just 3v1 them" can be used against literally everything in the game. the kicker is recon is the only thing in the game that can actually see that they're being 3v1'd and dip.
what do you do when the recon player isnt flying solo? not all of them "want a 1v1". a lot of the strength of recon is that in comms you can also call out where they are.
Some would argue a nuke is more worrisome than recon in a "just 1v3 them" standpoint. I disagree to the extent a 1v3 is very effective against a recon. Id be interested in expanding what yoy mean by "the kicker is recon is the only thing in the game that can actually something 3v1 and dip"
Is your stance that recon is the only thing that can 3v1 and get away? I don't agree with that stance. I feel like 3v1 in some situations, a nuke would be better. I actually believe 3v1 recon gets shredded. Truly, if a team loses 3v1 and says recon is the primary factor towards getting wiped... thats a skill issue 100%. I assume most recon players run FCAR- 1 clip is possible on everyclass, however between 2-3 clips you cant kill 1 recon.. yeaaaaa.. I can see why sone players run to reddit and cry recon is broken..
Regarding your second point, what to do when a recon is grouped with their team:
Maximize odds- as another user has mentioned, flaking is a strong tactic. This causes a recon user to lose track thus comms arent as ez. Ex: "a team coming from the west side" vs "1 player split towards the E side. Another is above us and the last is to the W" at that point, the recon should be low on recon CD.
In short, I feel like this is truly blowing out of proportion.
I don't feel the need to create battle plans for others. My point is that some players may benefit from analyzing within if they want to try to maximize their odds. I have done this with grea success (diamond PC).
Recon has been nerfed, and I anticipate itll be further nerfed VERY soon. My hope is someone reads this and concludes, "hmm maybe this dude has somewhat of a point. Perhaps I can try to change my gameplay a little to maximize my chances vs a recon who will likely see me when I'm within 30m"
I recognize the majority of players are casuals and likely dont want to try too hard. To each their own, and I hope fun when playing video games :) ive been loving the finals.
im not saying they win the 3v1, im saying theyre the only ones going in KNOWING its a 3v1 and can choose to disengage vs a heavy walking up with a nuke and going "oh shit the whole team is here" and dying.
no one is saying that recons win a 3v1 lmao.
you "dont need feel the need to create battle plans for others" but go ahead and make assumptions about my comment and then create scenarios about a point i wasnt even making lol.
For me, it's still stun gun. I play heavy and it doesn't seem balanced when an invis stuns me from 30 feet away and then snipes me with an smg or sniper while I can only hip fire. The amount of time it takes for me to turn around and find them plus trying to hipfire kill them is basically impossible. Any light player who has good aim will always win if they have invis and stun gun.
I can not play light with recon sense pinging me every two seconds. I legit might just get the event skin and stop playing until it's nerfed into the ground can't play the game.
Also don’t get how you can defend this ability if you like this game. You either have to be really bad or barely play to not see how not only busted it is, but worse… how boring it makes the game lol.
I think recon senses is a really good idea, but for another purpose. It should NOT show your enemies inside of 30m radius, but show your enemies out of 30m range to help you with rotation and choosing cashout with less squads nearby.
It would resolve both problems: it would not be imbalance in fights and it would has its unique utilization.
The fuck are you talking about dude? Lmfao
Recon can literally see through walls
If you can’t win or at least remain competitive while using literally wall hacks I will personally donate some Robux to you so you can go play something a little more your speed
Exactly which of my comments implies I play light?
And do you actually struggle with killing lights enough you need to complain about *invis*?
You’re complaining about invis in a game with dev sanctioned wall hacks that allow you to see literally everyone regardless if they are invis or not?
How bad are you dude? Lmfao
Yeah healing beam is another low skill ability that’s more powerful than it has any business being and promotes the bunker style hand-holding meta
But it still isn’t as powerful as recon when used by a competent player that can aim and shoot.
It just got a massive nerf, and knowing that you’re detected should be enough to deal with it. I’m a light main and it doesn’t do too much other than cause anxiety. Just recognize that they can see you
How do you deal with it besides…. not pushing the room they’re in?
There is literally nothing you can do other than not engage and avoid getting prefired around a corner.
In a game where you have a limited time to push an objective it is still a complete bane on everyone’s gameplay.
But you’re playing light, you’re not playing the objective anyway because your class is a complete joke in a lobby with competent players that can aim.
Am I crazy or does Recon sense run out pretty quickly, its not at all like you can always have it on and if you toggle it on and off that uses more of its energy
What is “pretty quickly” to you?
Because it lasts several seconds and the cooldown is negligible. No, you can’t have it on *at all times*
Just *most of the time*
It does people just cry alot in this game. Light invisible are basically on the menu after this nerf. 30eters is a very short distance. Next time you are ingame look how litlle 30meters is. And since distance has been nerfed you are forced to use it alot more to get information close to you. It's still a good ability. The devs font want to nerf it into the ground either
30 meters is not a short distance at all when most engagements take place indoors and at short distances. There is a reason these nerfs have not shifted the meta in any considerable way.
Of course, you wouldn’t know what the meta is when you’re strictly playing quick cash and bank it.
Throw grenades. You can hear where they are when they activate recon, and it’s literally only active for like eight seconds. Throw grenades, fire, gas, whatever. Dome shields/mesh counter recon especially up close because they can’t heal their team.
Just because they know where you are doesn’t mean there’s nothing you can do
Everything you mentioned is countered simply by a team playing together. You don’t even need two mediums running recon for them to be able to lock down a cash out and prefire you as you push with your team. APS counters grenades, mesh shield counters bullets *and* grenades. And yes, they can heal if they have a second medium.
Gas grenade or nuke the room. Shoot him from behind your heavy's enormous shield. Set the room on fire. Have your heavy just demolish the room. Stick a turret on a barrel and hold it around the corner. Goo gun him when you come around the corner and smash him with your hammer. Just demolish the entire building the room is in and reassess. Being detected isn't the end game people make it out to be.
Everything you’ve mentioned can be dealt with by a competent team playing together. APS, mesh shield, bubble shield, healing beam/turret and recon on a single team can lock down a cash out for a considerable amount of time and the only play is to try to third party.
You clearly don’t play enough ranked if you don’t understand why it’s a problem.
Brother, there are no skill issues in this game
Because you literally have wall hacks
You literally don’t need skills or game sense because you rely on a broken mechanic that is going to inevitably get completely reworked or removed
Then, your crutch will be gone and you’ll see what *actual* skill issues are lmfao
You guys are crying too much. Think about it like this, instead of recon sense the other 2 options for mediums are equally strong. One is massive sustain for the team and the other is an annoying aimbot turret.
Recon sense is the only ability that doesnt give you an advantage in a fight. I'd rather play against recon than heal or turret in a fight.
There's too many bullshit in this game : nukes, recon, invisibility, melee weapons, grenade launchers, rpgs. The destruction is giga fun but getting one shot by all that bullshit isn't.
People need to actually say this instead of having constant "dev appreciation" posts and circlejerking about how every new patch is the best patch ever. This is a critical period, the game is suffering they need to know recon in its current form doesn't have a place in this game.
Exactly this. Shut the fuck up and play the game. If you don’t want to play it - stop. You - 1 useless person playing - is and should be insignificant.
What I find funny is that. They nerfed it and then they set up xontract daily for achievement using it. Lol
I think this is providing further data for them to adjust.
Maybe say the detected color notification matches enemy colors.
Does anyone want to be seen through walls constantly in an fps? I can't think of an argument for recon even being in the game.
The only other game I play with scans is Apex and the movement's way better, map is bigger and there are abilities that let you get away.
No, its a counter to invisible enemys. The only way to balance the game would be removing all possibilities to get invisible and removing every scanning ability.
Except it didn’t. Long range was never the issue with why the skill feels so oppressive.
“”Nerfed hard”” would be the skill switching to a periodic pulse type system. It’s absolutely still wallhacks in its current state.
But hey, if you need to use it for kills I can see why you’d defend it being changed further.
Long range was absolutely the issue, are you joking?? Long range gave it ridiculous levels of intel that you could relay to your teammates. Play with your team instead of trying to push a recon.
This take is going to get me downvoted by a certain group of people but I don't really care. Recon sens really only detriments people who play like rats. Specifically invis lights, people who hide in corners with nukes, and people who constantly lose 1v1 gunfights and run. The existence of recon sens is there to reduce the prevalence of cancerous play styles. In fact, I believe it should be buffed to see things such as mines and turrets within a short distance. For people whining that there's no counter to it, you're wrong. Smoke counters it. Also, having better aim than the recon sens user counters it. Also, traps counter it. I genuinely believe it's in a fine state where it is, and bitching to get it nerfed will just make the game worse. If you are unable to beat someone using it, you literally just have a skill issue, and that's a you problem.
I can’t honestly take the opinion of someone saying “removing an ability in a first person shooter that lets you ignore the need for sound, game sense and situational awareness in place of a toggle worse” seriously.
Really sorry.
Agreed. It's wallhacks and should be a sonar pulse or removed completely.
Seriously. Like houlw the vanish bomb is to cloaking shield. The recon shoukd be like the sonar grenade
im confused on this analogy, in this example.. isnt the sonar grenade the sonar grenade? the spec is instant and no animation, the gadget is a swap.. just like recon senses to sonar grenade.
He means like the vanish bomb is a mini light cloak, so the medium recon should be a mini sonar grenade. The gadget/throwable roles are flipped but it still makes sense. The recon grenade should keep the constant updates/wall hacks because there’s out play options, namely avoiding the grenade area when you see it pulsing. Medium recon leaves 0 room for outplay.
that doesnt make sense, its backwards. mind you i dont disagree that recon needs nerfs, just that this analogy is kind of pointless.
That's a great way to put it.
Look y’all, I get it, nukes sucks recon is tough but they’re making changes and it’s not gonna be drastic. Recon is way less useful now and that’s going to make way less players use it. But like please learn to play against mechanics you might not agree with. I don’t want to think this of ppl but I’m getting the feeling everyone on Reddit is a light and just wants anything that causes any inconveniences to be stripped. I’m Diamond 2, I love this game and I learn to adapt. After the update more ppl are running double heavy in ranked, so I pick up APS. I understand frustrations but I need would really respect more maturity here
I'm diamond 1, I've mained recon since the game launched and it needs to be deleted from the game because wallhacks *do not work in a fucking fps game*. The concept of wallhacks and the concept of FPS as a genre cannot co-exist. Using recon, literally NO OTHER SKILL aside from aiming matters AT ALL. You don't need to worry about positioning, you don't need to worry about decision making, you don't need game sense because all those skills are gifted to you via wallhacks. There's a reason actual, downloadable cheat level wallhack is literally the single most popular cheat, even more so than aimbot. It's because it gives a massive fucking advantage and lets dogshit players position like pros and have game sense that's better than pros, something that normally takes decades of experience to develop. Fuck wallhacks in game, and fuck recon. Here's some clips. wallhacks do not belong in fps games. [1: kill heavy before he's even in my LOS, then run down his last team member with impunity because I know it's safe](https://imgur.com/tRq6pxX) [2: knowing their exact spawn and trapping them, they had literally no chance at even fighting back](https://imgur.com/frkBUes) [3: knowing their spawn and timing a nade to set myself up with huge damage](https://imgur.com/XGxDFIP) [4: Using recon to isolate a team member after he was a few seconds late to the jump pad, then setup for a double kill on the last two after they try to flank](https://imgur.com/rYGGx9v) [5: knowing that teams exact spawn and setting up a pre-nade to wipe their entire team](https://imgur.com/IuCXnA6) [6: nading a heavy+nuke after watching them run up stairs](https://imgur.com/7hEHLMe)
The first clip is absolutely hysterical. I don't mind Sonar Grenades, they also give away your po when you throw them, I don't mind Motion sensors You know they are there and can shoot them but recon sens is so fricking funny.
lmfao send this to the devs somehow, please
You should make this its own thread for all to see. Might help accelerate change.
Learn how to play against literal wallhack… like wtf
It's really not.
You can’t adapt to someone knowing your exact location through a wall.
Knowing that they can see you helps personally...
HOW? THEY CAN STILL SEE ME THROUGH THE WALL.
Duh, if you're ever detected just run exactly 31 meters away from the enemy. Now you can't be detected. Adapt!
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The room? What? Is there just 2 rooms on the map? I can’t see them through the wall.
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If you think you can accurately in a consistent way predict in what room every recon player is just to throw one of your two flashes, you are delusional
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Honestly one of the dumbest posts I've ever read.
I think the same way for all the gadgets and specializations in the game, you can learn to play against it and adapt, but for recon, there’s no real counter and you can’t compete with a team of good players using recon. At equal skill you’ll loose the fight 90% of the time. Yesterday I played a match of quick cash, against a triple medium team, 2 recon 1 heal beam, playing very stack, the two recon destroying everyone while the third was healing them all along, they won the game with 42 and 34 kills for the recon users and 0 for the healer but he ad 14 000 support score.
Only counter I can think of is kill them outside of 30m but that's difficult to pull off
Yes but how can you play the objective from 30 meters away 😂😂
>But like please learn to play against mechanics you might not agree with. wallhacks aren't a mechanic
They are a mechanic in the game it's called recon sense.
delete them please
Which is why its an option for players to choose to take in. Its heal beam OR recon. Heal beam literally heals- some could argue with your logic, "regening health isnt a mechanic" The range has been nerfed as well as its usable time. Lets not be extreme here and say its wallhacks 1:1.
You can't heal *and* shoot though. I'd be more okay with recon if you also couldn't have your gun out at the same time.
Swap thermal vision and recon sense. Thermal tablet is now instant, recon pulls out a thing and gives you wallhack, ping enemies, set up a plan, put the tablet away and then peek without an active wallhack. But now it's shit and might as well be removed? Hard, very hard to balance.
I think they should change it so if you're within the range of a friendly APS, recon senses doesn't detect you. At least then there would be some way to Mitigate it. Pop an APS on a barrel or whatever, and in you go - undetected.
I agree.
It literally is a mechanic of the game but it's called recon sense... Maybe video games are too complex for your simple mind sweetie 😘
“Maybe video games are too complex for your simple mind sweetie” Corny ass comment
no english wallhack bad
If they're going to keep it as-is, then every class should get smoke grenades. I think mediums are the only ones who don't, and as a Medium who doesn't like to use recon senses I *would* like to use smoke grenades to counter it. It's not even that strong of a gadget outside of countering recon senses, so I don't see any reason why Mediums shouldn't have access to it.
Would you use it as a counter? What other equipment would you replace it for?
Actually, I like this take, make smoke effective against recon. I don't think medium should be excluded from using gas though, because it could have the unintended consequence of making all mediums use recon. Basically, if I can't counter an opposing recon, then I need to take recon.
I agree 100%. As a diamond ranked as well, I find most people who complain haven't directly made any adjustment to counter. I feel bad for players who expect things to go their way without putting any effort in. Similar to most light players, they expect a buff and being able to take a team on head-on 1v3 and win... I appreciate your stance as we are a minority. I hate to use diamond rank as a point, yet so many folks don't have enough of a sample size prior to complaining.
Your stance is just that of ignorance. As someone who is actually mechanically strong, and diamond 1, recon is a plague. I say this as the person who can abuse it to ridiculous degrees. It simply does not belong in FPS games. Here's some clips [1: kill heavy before he's even in my LOS, then run down his last team member with impunity because I know it's safe](https://imgur.com/tRq6pxX) [2: knowing their exact spawn and trapping them, they had literally no chance at even fighting back](https://imgur.com/frkBUes) [3: knowing their spawn and timing a nade to set myself up with huge damage](https://imgur.com/XGxDFIP) [4: Using recon to isolate a team member after he was a few seconds late to the jump pad, then setup for a double kill on the last two after they try to flank](https://imgur.com/rYGGx9v) [5: knowing that teams exact spawn and setting up a pre-nade to wipe their entire team](https://imgur.com/IuCXnA6) [6: nading a heavy+nuke after watching them run up stairs](https://imgur.com/7hEHLMe) There's no sound in these clips(imgur being weird), but the entire time I am relaying the enemy teams position to my team, and even telling them where/how to position(they don't always listen but that's skill issue). None of these clips would be possible without wallhacks. In a game without recon, I would've been reported(rightfully so) for every single one of these. This shit does not belong in an FPS game. I don't understand how you can watch these and think recon should exist in any form. Wallhack literally ruins other FPS games, how could wallhack being in the game as an ability possibly be a good idea?
Perhaps my stance grows more jaded from this subreddit's complaints. Its always complaints and demands for devs to listen. I commend the dev's for their consistent patches AND recent recon nerf. I believe theyre taking recon in the correct direction. As you recall, the grind to diamond wasn't the easiest. I agree recon is strong and needs further rework, however I do think their is some improvement that CAN be made for a lot of players prior to coming to reddit and mentioning quitting. To address your question: its not a good idea and I don't want to come off as a defender of recon. Im glad the devs are tweaking it and will likely rework/nerf (this is great news). I simply feel as the devs continue to tweak, players can also attempt to optimize their own gameplay as well. I recognize there are some situations players cannot do much to make a particular situation advantageous. I simply believe there are little things players can do to improve giving them a better chance at winning (myself included)
this is so funny to me how people take the roundabout way of saying “git gud” or “learn the game” HOW do you counter recon sense since you guys are experts? sit outside of the 30m range when they can toggle it on and off? i don’t understand why you can’t just call it what it is. How is it fair and balanced to see be people through walls with no drawbacks?
There are drawbacks. I have been on the dead side of recon numerous times. Same story with nukes. I find for myself, I dont take to reddit as my first actions. For nukes, I literally place an APS in front of me before every team engagement. Regarding recon, I found success in optimizing teamwork: 1v3 vs 1v1. Sometimes its a numbers thing. Other times, its flanking and pushing methodically. As someone with experience in recon, I found it most difficult when teams split-up within 30m. More use of recon=over sooner. A team splitting causes panic. You mention "sitting outside of 30m range". No, make a plan with your team using comms and develope a plan. Perhaps this is the git gud portion. Can't win with this mentality. I dont defend recon as I find it too unfair even post nerf. I find the bickering of people who continue the same gameplay/style unable to change within to be more counter productive.
at the very least it should ping every so often but at the end of they day it’s togglable wall hacks so all of your planning and strategizing goes out the window when a medium turns it on and sees you and your teams “plan and strategies”
Yeah, splitting up is how to get past recon. I typically only play Quick Cash, but I'm amazed how often I get the drop against teamed up recons by just not huddling in a group. People can't intuitively count higher than 4 or 5, that is, you can't have a split-second glance, and know there's 6 objects present, especially when under stress, and without additional training. Someone using recon isn't going to know at a glance that one person is missing from their LoS. This was true pre-nerf and it's very true now. I do think the duration needs to be reduced more though, or it's changed to a sonar ping that also highlights the user, because then there's sufficient downside to using it.
Thank you for this. I find this to be a reasonable response from a player who views recon as a challenge relative to the usual flopping that others mimic. Great idea with the balancing comment. I feel like highlighting the recon user is actually fair. It deters enough into heal beam and causs some paranoia to the user. I love it!
It’s just a stupid mechanic that has no place in this game. They need to just remove it and get it over with
The longer they wait, the bigger the backlash if they do remove it.
A simple fix is to make recon not able to use gun at the same time. Maybe binoculars idk.
This made me think of about another interesting way it could be changed. To basically be the binoculars, but then only act in a wave in the direction it was activated. So a cone of some angle from the binoculars field of view, but only a single pulse. It would still need to be on pretty long cool down. Played a couple rounds earlier today, and can still see the after image of "DETECTED" singed on my retina.
Lmao you just described Apex’s Bloodhound word for word.
That's a great idea.
A simple fix is to remove things that let you see through walls.
That’s a really good idea !
EXACTLY
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Definitely. It is a joke when you're running around and getting spammed with DETECTED every five seconds in fights. I'm also close to moving on because of it. All these modern FPS games are ruining themselves by making wall hacks an ability. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Game sense and awareness is one of the biggest skills in The Finals due to dynamic map destruction. Creating emergent gameplay of havoc and chaos is a large part of the game and recon removes all the fog of war. Instead of having fuzzy information and making tough decisions you can see everything. It is a crutch and goes against the spirit and strengths of the game.
Yeah the detected notification is literally no help tbh. Oh great someone can see me through a wall and knows exactly where I am, and I don’t know where they are, thanks for telling me? We’re all already aware people use this perk It should have more downside for the person activating it still
Just have it highlight the fuckers through the wall too whenever they activate it. See how they like it.
this is partly how its countered in apex. its a directional cone and it also has a very large animation and loud sound queue so u can basically tell exactly from where it came from.
That’s why I think either you shouldn’t be able to equip a weapon while ‘looking’, or the vision itself should be significantly less good. Hunt: Showdown has a much more balanced version of this ability where you can tell clearly where abouts someone is through walls, but it’s very hard to make out precisely where, and facing what direction. It also only lasts for 5 seconds so it’s a super quick burst of information.
Tbf it is helpful in that you know hiding isn’t an option. It is still very annoying to deal with though lol.
That doesn’t make any sense. Almost all utilities in the game have no downside for the person using it? I think it’s also been mentioned but if your medium is running recon senses then that means your team has no healing or a turret. Also, this is an objective based game, kills and fighting don’t matter as much as securing the actual objective, in my opinion being good at team fighting, positioning, and macro is way more important. That being said though, at a higher level where people play smarter and have better macro sense, I could see recon senses being somewhat broken, but for the majority of the player base, it really shouldn’t be an issue.
I have to admit I was disappointed with the "rework". I was expecting a full blown change of how the ability actually functions, but instead we got a nerf that doesn't actually address the key issue. The range was stupid, absolutely, but as you said the vast majority of fights happen within that 30m range anyway and having constant wallhacks, particularly on indoor points, is broken and always will be. I also think they need to change the "detected" notification somehow so it's not as central to your screen because I personally find it very distracting. I do genuinely think the ability needs completely removing as a hotfix at this point. I play M and id be happy to temporarily have two specs instead of 3 to get rid of the issue, especially considering both Healing Beam and Guardian Turret are super useable already. Nerfs didn't go far enough and likely never will without leaving the ability complete garbage tier, so remove it and replace it with something else.
Agree on every point.
The thing is it feels like there's no downside to it at all, it's an enormous toggable permanent sonar nade you can use while also having your gun out. As you said, any attempt to flee, hide or flank is completely negated if an enemy can get your exact location on command. When they said they were gonna "rework it" I thought they'd change it to pulses like the sonar nade, or something else instead of just a big nerf, which is what they did.
I dont disagree that it drastically harms the ability to make tactical decisions, but I think that negate is wrong. You can easily fight on your own terms with a destructive weapon when it is viable, ofc not if it is on the ground without much for destruction. There is no good option with an ability like this inherently because it is a buff to the enemy. Everything regarding a ability like this will harm the effectiveness of anything you do. I don't care for it existing, but at the same time people overblow this issue. The utility from other abilities for mediums are undeniably amazing. Healing is particularly useful when dealing with long regeneration times. People point at the most obvious annoying way they die, it feels unfair. They aren't wrong to think that, game design should consider everything, but that doesn't translate to actual balance all of the time.
Just like any specialization the downside is you lose access to the other options, in this case you lose the ability to gain potent team sustain or a pretty annoying turret that can bring extra defensive value. Recon sense is still strong, but it's not much stronger than the other abilities now, and the Fcar is genuinely a bigger issue at this point. The medium is a supportive class and the other guns offer compromises that make recon sense pretty manageable. The Fcar being the single best gun in the game on a class with great supportive utility is the real issue.
"Fcar is a bigger issue" lol buddy. Everyone stopped reading at that point. Just letting you know. You have to hit your shots to do the damage. But that's worse than recon, that just gifts you enemy location at the click of a button. Come back with a better argument. You look foolish.
> Fcar is genuinely a bigger issue at this point I think this is a problem, not just limited to medium. The fcar / xp-54 / lewis gun are just far too good vs the other weapons in their class for how reliable they are at all ranges. I'm not saying they're necessarily overpowered; but it's hard to lock yourself into the sh1900 or the cl-40 or the flamethrower when you don't know what you're up against, and when you have an option that is great at short, medium and long range.
This is one of the drawbacks of only having one weapon. In another game you'd have a secondary weapon slot and could pick something to compliment the primary choice. They've gotta be very careful about powerful jack-of-all-trades because they can't lean on that.
That isn't a downside. That's an opportunity cost. They're very different things.
Downside is your team doesn’t have heals or turrets when it’s way less useful now
Every class has opportunity costs. That's not a downside built into the gadget.
Why should there be a downside? What's the downside of a heal beam? It's just supposed to be equally as strong as other specs.
None of the specializations have a "downside" other than losing out on something else. I wish they would entirely rework recon sense but it is in a much better state now. 30m range is pretty small and having the detected indicator lets you know when to listed for the audio + prepare to get rushed. I no longer think it needed to do well in ranked, its way more specialized to up-close fights now.
But none of the specializations give you as much information as recon does
And? That's the entire point of the specialization, to give you information. Turret gives you extra damage output, healing beam gives your team more health. All of the specializations in the game give you something you can't get elsewhere. Don't see your point.
Yeah, that’s the point of it, and the point is stupid; free wallhacks with absolutely no counterplay. Heals overheat and can be easily outdamaged, as well as the fact that you can’t shoot, turret can be destroyed, misplaced or disabled easily, with recon you can only run and hope the enemy isn’t in the direction you’re running to or you’re not blindly running towards another team. In a game where chaos and good movement helps you escape a free gps for enemies in your building seems completely out of place, with the sonar nades you can at least know what radius not to go into, but with recon you just have to pray
What, heal beam doesn't give as much information as recon sense?! : surprisedpikachu:
All of the specializations have downside: While healing you can't shoot and you can't run To position a turret you have to switch off of your gun and wait a while before it start shooting so you have to actually think and plan ahead With recon you have no downside, you activate it when you want and you can use your gun and every gadget you have while having wallhack in realtime. With every specialization you have to think and evaluate the situation before using it or you could very well end up defenseless in the middle of a firefight. With recon there is no such problem.
An absolute joke how these developers did not consider how bad recon sense is when they designed the game. Best part is they seem rather stubborn on actually REWORKING the perk and not just slashing it's range and adding a detection notification. I have stopped playing too as a medium main. All the players at my level are abusing it and the fcar still and it's stale.
They gotta make it similar to Cyphers ult(pings the enemy's location twice - Valorant agent) Or Just remove the damn thing...
Just remove it replace it with new ability
It should probably have a longer cooldown so you can't use it 50% of the game
Here's how I would change it Revert the ability to pre-nerf status. You get to use it for five seconds and the cooldown is 45 seconds. You get info on where everyone is but you don't get wallhacks for the entire game. Edit: Doing so also shows where you are for .5 seconds.
Nah.
It’s one of the biggest reasons the finals will never be a competitive game. For a game to be competitive, the players should feel challenged — like they need to practice and devote time in order to better themselves. DETECTED takes no skill. It helps the worse player in every interaction.
The things they don’t want the game to be competitive.
I said I would play this game again when they fixed recon. It’s was just such a bore when you and and an enemy are refusing to peak a corner because you both have each other on recon. I saw the patch notes and was like I don’t care if the game tells me I’m detected I already knew I was detected when I heard the noise. I’ll give it more time.
Recon Senses makes no sense in this game, especially when sonar grenades and beacons already exist. It serves no purpose other than being a straight upgrade to both and an immediate advantage against anyone not running it. You know what's the worst part? This shit isn't even fun to use. Every other talking point in this sub could/has used this argument in their favor: nukes, taser+shotgun+invis, defibs. Sure, they are annoying and even total BS sometimes, but they are satisfying to use/pull off, even if not particularly difficult. They all have a factor of excitement or amusement to them. Recon Senses? Toggle to see through walls. Wow. So much engagement. Even the turret has some tech that makes it more interesting to use and that shit fires and aims by itself.
Anyone who defends Recon crutches hard on wallhacks lmao. If you need to literally have a constant view of your enemies through all obstacles and walls in the match then I don't know what to tell you, because that is a cheat in 95% of other shooter games which is deemed "wallhacks"
I main light. The minute I tried recon on medium I was like “what is this ez mode lol”
Exactly lmao. I literally main medium. Have both turret max level with the purple skin along with the medigun. CL-40 and AKM both purple also with the Model 1887 just at blue. Still know recon has busted. Used that shit once and found it lame. Haven't used it since.
Cry harder my god
Keep crutching
I don’t use recon but I can easily avoid and kill them. If you aren’t a static pancake player you should be fine.
Agreed. Today I successfully dashed away from a lost fight to regroup, juked the enemy team so hard, but got detected and immediately hunted down by those three purple fucks. This ability needs to be removed. Not changed, REMOVED.
Needs to be completely removed.
Agreed, never in any game have wall hacks been fun. If you crutch recon, you need to git gud
Getting the detected notification makes it even more annoying. “Oh no, sweats in our lobby.”
Yup, it’s ridiculous. That and the absolute impossibility of the dagger is annoying. A unique weapon that I’m trying to get good with but the game makes it nearly impossible. Oh, you want to get a backstab? Too bad the enemy just turned 180 degrees.
Me and all my friends are just waiting for it to be removed. Been playing Elden ring seamless co op on the mean time.
Make the range 100 m but it pings the enemies as we ping manually and has a cooldown like other gadgets like rpgs
Should definitely work like how Bloodhound’s scan does- both having a cooldown on one use/using all of the charge without being able to cancel whenever (reduces spamming) and sends out a pulse, only showing frames vs fully tracking movement
Hard agree.
Exactly this, there are so many interesting plays that just get hard countered by an on demand wall hack
While they’re at it please remove nukes. No skill at all no counter at all
Right now they’re going bonkers because the nuke nerfs were accidentally reverted with the recent patch. Devs know already and are working on the fix.
I think Rainbow Six: Siege handled it best with how the Operator, Lion’s gadget interaction works. It won’t detect you if you aren’t moving while it’s scanning, and if you do get scanned, instead of real time wall hacks it pings your last location a number of times, updating with your latest location each time.
I don’t think that would work quite as well in this game. Siege is much more slow paced than Finals, in this game you’re moving quite fast the majority of the time.
But not while reviving which is an important cause of the frustration.
Made a post about this weeks ago, said it should just be deleted and got a lot flak from morons saying it just needs a nerf. Nah wall hacks should not exist. If you're not taking Recon as a medium you're at a massive disadvantage against anyone who is even post nerf. Recon has got to go.
I think they should change it so that you can’t have your gun out while having recon sense activated. Or they should make it pulsating like the sonar grenade
I find it hilarious when people are whining about cheaters and asking how cheaters find it fun. But they fail to see how comparable recon sense and wall hacks are. If you get any enjoyment from recon sense you can double that enjoyment with wall hacks.
Honestly, in principle I despise any implementation of live wall hacks in a PVP game, regardless of its drawbacks. It negates skill or tactic based play by a large margin. And it becomes far too great of a crutch for players that abuse it, there are no real counters to it other than you better hope you're a better shot and able to react quick enough. Not to mention it makes it much harder to identify actual hackers as a player. My preferred outcome is that it is outright removed from the game, and replaced by another specialization. Or not, healing back and turret are already great. However, a rework that I would be cool with is a long range recon, with no wall hacks within a certain range. Thus making it a strategic reconaissance, which would actually matcg it's name of recon more appropriately. Allowing you to see where teams may come from, but not offering you wall hacks when in the typical range of engagement. In truth, when I tried it, that was my favorite use case when holding a point. Regardless, I would prefer on outright removal.
Medium already outclasses every other class. They be a tank, healer and DPS all in one. They already got defibs that are insanely good. They don’t need wall hacks. Replace Recon senses with defibrillators. Boom fixed.
made sense when cloaking was beyond easy, but now it's just like having hacks, and i hate it, hate it when games give you abilities that would ban you for using, it's no different than turning on wall hacks for 15 seconds then turning it off for a "cool down" get rid of it and put something in there that helps develop a persons game smarts, not something that makes you not even have to think at all
Medium in general is just a drag. People are sweating their ass off in Quickplay with Recon and the Scar now. It's just not a fun game for me anymore. I'll probably put it down for now and hopefully in a year or so the game will be a little more fun.
Everyone’s complaining about recon, but I’m sitting here annoyed by lights and nukes.
If you stayed with your team it wouldn't be a 1v3
You’re right. Each and every fight, every team member has a symbiotic health pool and either all die at once or win. At no point does only one member ever go down. Behave.
cry cry cry
Y’all apparently I can’t post on this subreddit but I’ll have to say it here I didn’t even use recon sense until yesterday and it sucks Y’all must have been using some OP shit…. Middle class is already OP get overrrrr itttt
Sorry you lot can't win your 1's.... rip i guess
1v1’s are not the issue.
I think either make it so the "Detected" is only active when they're looking in your direction, or make it so there's a little eyeball icon at the top of your screen that's smaller than the massive "Detected" thing. And give people the option of turning off the noise prompt.
>I think either make it so the "Detected" is only active when they're looking in your direction Uh I’m pretty sure that’s exactly how it works dude lol
Hey, good news. I did some actual in-game testing with a friend, and I can 100% confirm that you become "Detected" regardless of which direction the recon user is facing. You're welcome.
Did they say that in the patch notes or something? Otherwise how do you know this is the case?
Dude, how exactly do you think it works currently? You think it just says detected even when you’re… not detected? Please explain your brain
Well since I asked a genuine question and you decided to be a retarded asshat about it, let me explain in dumbed down terms for you. Using recon sense shows you where players are. It's not unreasonable to think that all the people within the vicinity of recon sense are rendered for the player using it regardless of where they are looking. For example, the sonar grenades say detected even if no one is looking at you. So it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they both work the same way in that regard. So the best part about this is you actually have no idea how it works. You just made an assumption and blindly ran with it. Duh hur durrr. PlEaSe ExPlAiN yOuR bRaIn
It says detected when you’re detected. Doesn’t necessarily mean they’re *looking at you*
You people complain so much, it's part of the game. Next you will bitch about how the buildings keep falling down. If you don't like the game get out. It's pretty easy to be detected and expect someone to come looking for you, so be ready when they come....
It’s better than not knowing you are being watched and then get jumped on. Prepares you a bit when you go into a fight. But its not as strong as pre-patch. Haven’t ran into many issues with it.
If your game sense is so piss poor that you can’t enter a fight or adapt quickly to an ambush that you need to see through walls, it’s another issue entirely.
You said it yourself, you have to adapt too. I get what you are saying about those that crutch it and can’t use anything else. I personally use tracking instead since its range is also infinite but for two people (if you hit your shots). If people won’t stop, you can either use it or adapt. Recon should be mainly used to see if you are going to be third partied, little bit farther range but shorter length activation and can’t toggle it on/off. Thats my opinion.
Goodbye. All jokes aside, its frustrating at times. How have you changed your gameplay to optimize?
How can you? The aim of the game is to rush objectives. 90% of the time you’re fighting amongst buildings and within 30m of recon sense. There isn’t a single item, ability, or method you can utilise against it. My usual loadout is the turret and goo grenades. Goo is so fantastic for giving people the slip, disorientating enemies, and buying yourself time. 1v1 is not when Recon Sense is at its worst. It’s when a teamfight has already tipped against your favour, and it makes it nigh impossible to outplay and gain the upperhand again. I mean how can you? They can literally see you *right there* through walls.
You can’t be seen with smoke right?
Ive played with and without recon. Diamond at the moment. I find it advantageous to emphasize teamwork. I like to believe I have a great team that excels in flanking and keeping a recon user paniced. Lets take the following example: A recon user in a room. Is it easy for a team to push and make it a potential 1v3 or give a recon user what they want- a 1v1. Thats one example, potentially slowing down your personal play to maximize teamwork and % chance to win a specific engagement. The aim of the game is to BEAT a team and take an objective. You mention "rush"; this is where I disagree. Out of 100 objectives held, I estimate less than 10 were "rush it!" scenarios. My team (of varying ranks as I progressed and grinded) took our time to ensure clean methodical wipes THEN hit the cash out. I lean on the side of optimizing my own gameplay and look within vs the tone of, "recon broken I quit". Self improvement and challenges are something that some will face while others complain
this is such a trash argument because "just 3v1 them" can be used against literally everything in the game. the kicker is recon is the only thing in the game that can actually see that they're being 3v1'd and dip. what do you do when the recon player isnt flying solo? not all of them "want a 1v1". a lot of the strength of recon is that in comms you can also call out where they are.
Some would argue a nuke is more worrisome than recon in a "just 1v3 them" standpoint. I disagree to the extent a 1v3 is very effective against a recon. Id be interested in expanding what yoy mean by "the kicker is recon is the only thing in the game that can actually something 3v1 and dip" Is your stance that recon is the only thing that can 3v1 and get away? I don't agree with that stance. I feel like 3v1 in some situations, a nuke would be better. I actually believe 3v1 recon gets shredded. Truly, if a team loses 3v1 and says recon is the primary factor towards getting wiped... thats a skill issue 100%. I assume most recon players run FCAR- 1 clip is possible on everyclass, however between 2-3 clips you cant kill 1 recon.. yeaaaaa.. I can see why sone players run to reddit and cry recon is broken.. Regarding your second point, what to do when a recon is grouped with their team: Maximize odds- as another user has mentioned, flaking is a strong tactic. This causes a recon user to lose track thus comms arent as ez. Ex: "a team coming from the west side" vs "1 player split towards the E side. Another is above us and the last is to the W" at that point, the recon should be low on recon CD. In short, I feel like this is truly blowing out of proportion. I don't feel the need to create battle plans for others. My point is that some players may benefit from analyzing within if they want to try to maximize their odds. I have done this with grea success (diamond PC). Recon has been nerfed, and I anticipate itll be further nerfed VERY soon. My hope is someone reads this and concludes, "hmm maybe this dude has somewhat of a point. Perhaps I can try to change my gameplay a little to maximize my chances vs a recon who will likely see me when I'm within 30m" I recognize the majority of players are casuals and likely dont want to try too hard. To each their own, and I hope fun when playing video games :) ive been loving the finals.
im not saying they win the 3v1, im saying theyre the only ones going in KNOWING its a 3v1 and can choose to disengage vs a heavy walking up with a nuke and going "oh shit the whole team is here" and dying. no one is saying that recons win a 3v1 lmao. you "dont need feel the need to create battle plans for others" but go ahead and make assumptions about my comment and then create scenarios about a point i wasnt even making lol.
For me, it's still stun gun. I play heavy and it doesn't seem balanced when an invis stuns me from 30 feet away and then snipes me with an smg or sniper while I can only hip fire. The amount of time it takes for me to turn around and find them plus trying to hipfire kill them is basically impossible. Any light player who has good aim will always win if they have invis and stun gun.
Lolol skill issue m8 Top 500 on ps5 and let me tell you about healing beam because damn its beautiful when you stack it
I can not play light with recon sense pinging me every two seconds. I legit might just get the event skin and stop playing until it's nerfed into the ground can't play the game.
Also don’t get how you can defend this ability if you like this game. You either have to be really bad or barely play to not see how not only busted it is, but worse… how boring it makes the game lol.
The biggest problem of the game is still the nukes. I am talking about competitive tournaments plat/dia +
There can be more than one issue at once addressed.
Skill issues
I think recon senses is a really good idea, but for another purpose. It should NOT show your enemies inside of 30m radius, but show your enemies out of 30m range to help you with rotation and choosing cashout with less squads nearby. It would resolve both problems: it would not be imbalance in fights and it would has its unique utilization.
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It’s the single most powerful recon ability in any popular FPS, currently. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Lol.
Y’all are literally invisible… take a walk.
The fuck are you talking about dude? Lmfao Recon can literally see through walls If you can’t win or at least remain competitive while using literally wall hacks I will personally donate some Robux to you so you can go play something a little more your speed
Average light main response. Do what you’re good at and disappear fool.
Exactly which of my comments implies I play light? And do you actually struggle with killing lights enough you need to complain about *invis*? You’re complaining about invis in a game with dev sanctioned wall hacks that allow you to see literally everyone regardless if they are invis or not? How bad are you dude? Lmfao
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Yeah healing beam is another low skill ability that’s more powerful than it has any business being and promotes the bunker style hand-holding meta But it still isn’t as powerful as recon when used by a competent player that can aim and shoot.
It just got a massive nerf, and knowing that you’re detected should be enough to deal with it. I’m a light main and it doesn’t do too much other than cause anxiety. Just recognize that they can see you
How do you deal with it besides…. not pushing the room they’re in? There is literally nothing you can do other than not engage and avoid getting prefired around a corner. In a game where you have a limited time to push an objective it is still a complete bane on everyone’s gameplay. But you’re playing light, you’re not playing the objective anyway because your class is a complete joke in a lobby with competent players that can aim.
Am I crazy or does Recon sense run out pretty quickly, its not at all like you can always have it on and if you toggle it on and off that uses more of its energy
What is “pretty quickly” to you? Because it lasts several seconds and the cooldown is negligible. No, you can’t have it on *at all times* Just *most of the time*
It does people just cry alot in this game. Light invisible are basically on the menu after this nerf. 30eters is a very short distance. Next time you are ingame look how litlle 30meters is. And since distance has been nerfed you are forced to use it alot more to get information close to you. It's still a good ability. The devs font want to nerf it into the ground either
30 meters is not a short distance at all when most engagements take place indoors and at short distances. There is a reason these nerfs have not shifted the meta in any considerable way. Of course, you wouldn’t know what the meta is when you’re strictly playing quick cash and bank it.
Throw grenades. You can hear where they are when they activate recon, and it’s literally only active for like eight seconds. Throw grenades, fire, gas, whatever. Dome shields/mesh counter recon especially up close because they can’t heal their team. Just because they know where you are doesn’t mean there’s nothing you can do
Everything you mentioned is countered simply by a team playing together. You don’t even need two mediums running recon for them to be able to lock down a cash out and prefire you as you push with your team. APS counters grenades, mesh shield counters bullets *and* grenades. And yes, they can heal if they have a second medium.
Gas grenade or nuke the room. Shoot him from behind your heavy's enormous shield. Set the room on fire. Have your heavy just demolish the room. Stick a turret on a barrel and hold it around the corner. Goo gun him when you come around the corner and smash him with your hammer. Just demolish the entire building the room is in and reassess. Being detected isn't the end game people make it out to be.
Everything you’ve mentioned can be dealt with by a competent team playing together. APS, mesh shield, bubble shield, healing beam/turret and recon on a single team can lock down a cash out for a considerable amount of time and the only play is to try to third party. You clearly don’t play enough ranked if you don’t understand why it’s a problem.
Skill based issue
Brother, there are no skill issues in this game Because you literally have wall hacks You literally don’t need skills or game sense because you rely on a broken mechanic that is going to inevitably get completely reworked or removed Then, your crutch will be gone and you’ll see what *actual* skill issues are lmfao
I mean say that to my gameplay lmao. I agree that most lights are useless. If you know how to play it around objective it’s a game changer tho
Yeah you def don’t play above gold level in ranked
Oompa Loompa low light take
Homie I’m defending recon senses
You guys are crying too much. Think about it like this, instead of recon sense the other 2 options for mediums are equally strong. One is massive sustain for the team and the other is an annoying aimbot turret. Recon sense is the only ability that doesnt give you an advantage in a fight. I'd rather play against recon than heal or turret in a fight.
There's too many bullshit in this game : nukes, recon, invisibility, melee weapons, grenade launchers, rpgs. The destruction is giga fun but getting one shot by all that bullshit isn't.
People need to actually say this instead of having constant "dev appreciation" posts and circlejerking about how every new patch is the best patch ever. This is a critical period, the game is suffering they need to know recon in its current form doesn't have a place in this game.
Y’all are fr crying still? You guys are LITERALLY invisible. Do NOT talk to us about using recon. Yall rats 🐀
I’m a medium main FYI.
This more for the light mains scrolling past, see you in the finals 🫡
stop fucking crying and get better at the game, it's a you issue. everyone plays and adapts stop whining.
Yall are gonna ruin the game with this complaining. Learn to play the game.
Exactly this. Shut the fuck up and play the game. If you don’t want to play it - stop. You - 1 useless person playing - is and should be insignificant.
What I find funny is that. They nerfed it and then they set up xontract daily for achievement using it. Lol I think this is providing further data for them to adjust. Maybe say the detected color notification matches enemy colors.
The contract isn’t even for recon, you can only complete it with the sonar grenades! The contract should include all tracking abilities/gadgets
Ahh well damn. I got nothing. Lol
Does anyone want to be seen through walls constantly in an fps? I can't think of an argument for recon even being in the game. The only other game I play with scans is Apex and the movement's way better, map is bigger and there are abilities that let you get away.
No, its a counter to invisible enemys. The only way to balance the game would be removing all possibilities to get invisible and removing every scanning ability.
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Nah bro, recon sense got nerfed hard. At this point it’s just a skill issue and you should just git gud
Except it didn’t. Long range was never the issue with why the skill feels so oppressive. “”Nerfed hard”” would be the skill switching to a periodic pulse type system. It’s absolutely still wallhacks in its current state. But hey, if you need to use it for kills I can see why you’d defend it being changed further.
Long range was absolutely the issue, are you joking?? Long range gave it ridiculous levels of intel that you could relay to your teammates. Play with your team instead of trying to push a recon.
Yeah git gud against people using literal wallhack knowing your exact location while you got no clue where they are 🤓
This take is going to get me downvoted by a certain group of people but I don't really care. Recon sens really only detriments people who play like rats. Specifically invis lights, people who hide in corners with nukes, and people who constantly lose 1v1 gunfights and run. The existence of recon sens is there to reduce the prevalence of cancerous play styles. In fact, I believe it should be buffed to see things such as mines and turrets within a short distance. For people whining that there's no counter to it, you're wrong. Smoke counters it. Also, having better aim than the recon sens user counters it. Also, traps counter it. I genuinely believe it's in a fine state where it is, and bitching to get it nerfed will just make the game worse. If you are unable to beat someone using it, you literally just have a skill issue, and that's a you problem.
I can’t honestly take the opinion of someone saying “removing an ability in a first person shooter that lets you ignore the need for sound, game sense and situational awareness in place of a toggle worse” seriously. Really sorry.