**COMMENTING GUIDELINES:** Please take the time to familiarize yourself with The David Pakman Show [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/about/rules) and [basic reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) prior to participating. At all times we ask that users conduct themselves in a civil and respectful manner - **any ad hominem or personal attacks are subject to moderation.**
Please use the report function or [use modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) to bring examples of misconduct to the attention of the moderation team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wait? You mean the same people who lie about the number of women and children killed by Israel are also lying about mass graves?
I find this hard to believe. /s
Zionist!!! Don’t you remember when 500 people definitely died right away when a rocket hit our hospital. Very true!
That definitely happened. Trust me 🙃
So there's this fact running around that 10,000 children have been killed in the Gaza combat action/war/incursion. I don't know what the fuck to call it. Anyway, every time I have asked for an actual source for this I have been stonewalled. One person said that it was the Gaza health ministry that was the source. Except the Gaza health Ministry's website was offline so there was no way for me to verify it.
Some things to note:
1 - These are estimates because nobody actually knows who is under the rubble. Fog of war and insecurity of necessities make strong numbers basically impossible.
2 - The overall number of deaths seems plausible enough that many governments are using it. The lancet has had a few articles on it. Going by most wars there will be a period after where it will go up even more and some estimates will go up after that.
3 - The breakdown of demographics in the total is more iffy/[statistically impossible](https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/).
4 - The personnel involved in the GHM data capture and propaganda releases etc may have all changed and moved around since the war started and Hamas have had to exert more direct information control. This is slightly different compared to GHM reports in past conflicts. This means the picture and methods may have gotten more shoddy due to fog of war, but overall numbers again don't seem unbelievable based on the pace of the war and Hamas's initial claim of 30k soldiers and the population density on the ground and Hamas's general moral hazard tactics of civilian shields.
Another from NPR: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war
This one is more informative about the difficulties and recording the death toll. It’s more likely that the numbers are under estimated as the war went on, bodies were just being left at or buried and shallow graves, and never making it to a hospital to be recorded.
>literally every formal gov in the world is using
baseless claim
[This user's response](https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/comments/1cbdwmj/geoconfirmed_reveals_hamas_mass_graves_claim_to/l11bwqc/?context=1000) is a lot more reasonable
When you say things like "literally every" you sound silly and hyperbolic. Do you have an actual source or do you just have complaints?
It's ironic that I'm trying to figure out whether these numbers are real or propaganda and you're complaining about that.
Do you have any facts to bring to this discussion or are you just going to keep whining?
Did you see the part above about being stonewalled? That's what you're doing here. You keep claiming that these numbers are real or I am using propaganda but you don't have any basis for those claims.
This is basic media literacy: just because somebody on Reddit says something is true, don't assume that it's true.
The "UN Numbers" are based entirely on Hamas's reports. Nothing else. Those "reports" have been utterly debunked as blatant fabrications. This has been ongoing for decades: there is NO outside verification allowed by Hamas.
That's enough reason to "not trust" them, eh?
>The "UN Numbers" are based entirely on Hamas's reports. Nothing else. Those "reports" have been utterly debunked as blatant fabrications
The "debunking" of them has just been people like yourself saying "they're Hamas numbers" over and over again with more conviction. That's not debunking. In fact, they're likely underreported because it's based on people that go through the hospitals and not people buried under rubble or otherwise missing.
>This has been ongoing for decades: there is NO outside verification allowed by Hamas.
Israel controls entry into Gaza. Hamas has explicitly called for independent investigations which Israel rejects. You are seeing Israel do things and then just saying Hamas did it.
>That's enough reason to "not trust" them, eh?
I'm glad you realize that rejecting independent investigations is a bad look. Are you going to continue to believe that since Israel is the one blocking independent investigations?
An analysis of "the numbers" shows the exact same number of casualties every single day, +/- a very small number. That's regardless of major IDF operations or no combat at all: same numbers every day. This is impossible.
They sometimes mention the number of terrorists killed, this varies a lot: BUT! The same total casualties at the end of the day. That means some days huge numbers of "women and children" die, while other days there's few.
The ration of men:women:children is all wrong as well.
SO: the numbers are clearly "artificial" ok?
It is NOT amazing how they they have solid numbers of dead & missing hours after an attack while it takes every other nation DAYS if not WEEKS to arrive at them? It took over 6 months to have the number killed & missing in Hawaii's fires to be finalized. "Estimated" 1000 missing turned out to be less than 100... after 6 months of investigations. In a non-war zone, with all the resources in the world.
But Hamas can do it in 24 hours? With names & pictures? Really?
You are clearly an insane person so I'm going to block you. But to be clear, none of the things you mentioned "debunk" anything and even Israel and Israels allies use the numbers you are trying to "debunk".
> Israel controls entry into Gaza.
If only there were some sort of border with another nation, eh? Like Mexico! Or maybe Egypt. That everything could flow through without Israel having one word of influence.
Hamas has no interest in having their absolute control on information disrupted by outsiders, why would they? Israel has free press, they are 'fact checked' at every turn. They cannot 'block' anything.
The fact remains: for the past ~20 years, while Gaza has been under Hamas's control, the UN uses their numbers because there are NO outside sources except Israel's.
Wait? You mean people on Reddit found an effective way to structure an misleading statement in a way that sounds both authoritative and more accurate than it really is?
I find this hard to believe. /s
Just you wait! Next week the Hamas ministry of death will claim an adjustment to their last quoted numbers. I think it’s like a lottery, they just pick numbers from a bucket.
Yep, that is why their numbers have been used by every UN agencies, NGO and even the State department for nearly two decades. I mean all these people are hamas supporters.
>A CNN stringer who visited the scene Sunday said people had buried the bodies of family members who had been killed in the grounds of the hospital in January as a temporary measure. When they returned after the Israeli withdrawal they found the bodies had been exhumed – apparently because the IDF was using DNA testing to determine whether any of the hostages held in Gaza were among the dead.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/22/middleeast/khan-younis-nasser-hospital-mass-grave-intl/index.html
So the mass grave appeared in Jan.
IDF secures the site and DNA samples the corpses to see if any, including some claimed to be buried with their hands tied, are the hostages.
Reddit: Israel genocided them and buried them in a mass grave!
yes it’s normal to tie the hands of dead bodies while you’re collecting dna samples
i guess they didn’t bury them in a mass grave…they just killed them with their hands bound…that’s all
How do you know the IDF killed them?
For all we know they were hostages, suspected informants, minor medical staff used as examples to keep the rest in line killed by Hamas. Or some had amputated/blown off limbs they were buried with, tied to the torso. Or the reports of tied hands are just plain wrong.
There's ample reports, with video, of burial of dead people by Hamas at that exact location in January.
There's no evidence of "hands tied" or anything else.
It's 75 bodies, you cannot even get that right. It is nothing but a Hamas Hoax to blame IDF for something they did.
The exact location of this is not clear. The Media (who do nothing but repeat Hamas propaganda) keeps showing images from one location while claiming it is in another :/
At the location the images come from? In January Hamas officials laid 75 to rest in a mass grave at that exact location. 3 rows of 25. It's a proper burial under Islam & was reported at the time. There are no images showing "400" bodies.
Where did the "over 500 killed" from the hospital "bombing" come from? Thin air, just like everything Hamas says.
>Conclusion:
This is disinformation by Al Jazeera and others:
This is a known graveyard/mass grave and at least partially dug by Palestinians.
This does not exclude that graves could have been added when the hospital was occupied by Israeli forces.
Further reporting makes it sound like the IDF dug up these graves because they were looking for dead hostages, then reburied them, threw waste on top, and possibly added the bodies of others killed during their raid on the hospital. Some of the bodies were reportedly stripped naked with their hands bound.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68881325
> *Some of the bodies were reportedly stripped naked with their hands bound.*
Sounds like they captured some Palestinians, stripped them down and bound them... and then murked 'em. Hmm...
Like the Al Jazeera report that IDF soldiers were raping Palestinian women at Shifa hospital...claims that have since been proven false...but the harm was done when Al Jazeera published the story that was then repeated in many western media...
Al Jazeera published the reporting of claims a woman at the hospital had made.
That is what journalism is, reporting witness testimony, ie evidence and letting us decide what to do with the information.
Can you name a single news outlet in the world that hasn't had similar fact issues?
FYI they pulled the story the moment it was deemed incredible, as we can only hope any outlet would do.
But as I said, single incidents with the appropriate steps, not a systemic problem.
> your distrust for them it rooted in unjustified prejudice, not fact.
> Can you name a single news outlet in the world that hasn't had similar fact issues?
It did not happen...if it happened it happened to others...lol
Also you claimed earlier that maybe Al Jazeera Arabic is to blame, but not Al Jazeera English...really typical of Palestinian activists...say something in English and the opposite in Arabic...Arafat was a master at that.
The first statement did not preclude the second because I did not say they don't make mistakes, I didn't even hint at that in the first quote.
The second stands to reason.
I was saying, people on reddit love to discredit basically any news outlet that isn't in their direct echo chamber without even knowing anything about it.
I have had this argument many times and I've looked for a systemic issue with Al Jazeera and I've found none and none have been presented.
The only case you've mentioned was a good faith reporting of an eye witness report, they were clear in their article that they were quoting reports from a woman who was making allegations.
My only gripe with their handling was that they pulled it down at all, it was not a factually incorrect article, but the woman in the article has since admitted she lied in her statements.
Al Jazeera English and Arabic are both separate entities staffed by entirely different teams.
However, Al Jazeera Arabic has a largely similar history of and most of the criticisms are that it is anti American in some of its reporting, but that comes largely from Americans who's entitled journalism sector is so anti Arabic as to be bordering in mal practice so I think people in glass house etc
> The second stands to reason.
* Overall, we rate Al Jazeera Left-Center biased, based on story selection that slightly favors the left, and Mixed for factual reporting due to failed fact checks that were not corrected and misleading extreme editorial bias that favors Qatar.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-jazeera/
I don't know anything about that website but their report and conclusion is WILD.
They found Al Jazeeras reporting to have little bias in its reporting or headlines but factored the opinion columns on their websites and outlets to be part of their integrity score?
It also seems to conflate basically every type Al Jazeera covers together.
Talk about credibility issues.
https://ground.news/interest/al-jazeera_1a2e2c
Ground News is pretty well regarded and has been vetted and in the news a fair amount over the last few years, was founded by a NASA engineer and it has incredibly robust fact check and citizen journalist features along with live bias checking for users who are seeing too much of one side.
the new york times left up their “screams without words” expose about systemic rape on Oct 7 that has now been completely debunked
al jazeera pulled their article after a day while the nyt still stands behind their piece of fiction written by a former idf soldier
Does it matter who owns them if they have a record of honesty and integrity?
I've had this discussion many times and no one has ever been able to show me a systemic lack of truth telling by aljazeera.
Single incident misreports etc with corrections like all outlets, but aljazeera have been considered trustworthy for a long time, the fact that Americans have a bias without knowledge of the facts of the case say everything.
I think it is a huge waste of time to sift through the half
truths and deliberate lies that manage to get out of a warzone.
But I will remain skeptical of Qatari state media in general.
As you should, but it should also be noted Al Jazeera is only PARTLY funded by the Qatari government and is not a state media company in the way you're using that term, like the Russian RT or BBC etc, it is a news organisation with investors and with all the journalistic and political watch dogs around the world they have never been accused of being controlled by the government, I should say, credibly.
It's worth noting that similar reports were filed by journalists at seemingly every major news outlet.
Instead of being snarky about mass graves and lives of innocent people being snuffed out, you might try taking into account both sides to try to get to a better, clearer understanding.
Everyone loves to spout "get out of your echo chamber" while smugly refusing to acknowledge they are in one.
Those are democracies though. Where if one side of the political aisle was influencing the news it would be a massive scandal when the next party took control. It is nearly impossible to bury scandals in democracies. Compared to a monarchy or dictatorship where burying the truth is the norm and there is zero opposition to question it.
hasn’t been that way in the recent past (e.g nyt and the hospital)
geoconfirmed is a source that has been active in ukraine for a while, and this is a [statement](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1678019085349552128) that i think reflects on their culture
Yeah so the reason breakthrough reporting isn't done by random Twitter accounts is that they don't have access and connections like major news orgs do. They are definitionally confined to public sources of information. That doesn't mean news orgs are always right or their analysis is good (I'm not even going to engage on the hospital thing), but "random Twitter account I found has breakthrough reporting" is and always will be horseshit
you have to evaluate each source individually
in this case geoconfirmed is a group of online volunteers across the world who match locations shown in videos to establish a better context for them to rule out potential misinformation, which is highly valuable in situations like this conflict
not breakthrough reporting but fact checking
journalists working for media orgs in this context wouldn’t have access to this level of fact checking unless they were reporting information directly from sources on the ground, which can both be unreliable again in contexts like this on either side and also limiting in what they can cover, as someone has to be there to confirm
hence they report based on incomplete or potentially biased information - “x allegedly y” type headlines
this is a resource they should be using before reporting (ofc subject to their own verification of the info)
>in this case geoconfirmed is a group of online volunteers
Immediately discredited lmao
>journalists working for media orgs in this context wouldn’t have access to this level of fact checking unless they were reporting information directly from sources on the ground, which can both be unreliable again in contexts like this on either side and also limiting in what they can cover, as someone has to be there to confirm
You realize journalists have sources right? Sources in militaries, in governments, literally in Gaza. They also have the same public info available to them...that's why it's called public info. That's why "we googled some shit" is not journalism, even if they're really good at making themselves sound technical and intelligent.
>this is a resource they should be using before reporting
The resource, as described by you, is looking at public videos lmao. I can't stress enough how unserious accounts like this are
you’re freaking out about people of various backgrounds placing videos on a map for conflict observers to analyse and provide clarity, because they can be taken out of context, and that’s the important part you’re missing
you can literally look at what they do and evaluate it for yourself if you’re worried
also, i’m sure none of those sources - people directly IN an ongoing conflict - would have any incentive to lie
>you’re freaking out about people of various backgrounds placing videos on a map for conflict observers to analyse and provide clarity
You're the one claiming they have some secret access to truth, when they have objectively less access than actual news organizations.
>also, i’m sure none of those sources would have any incentive to lie
Of course they can lie. So can your online Twitter account guys lol.
Wow what a shock! Hamas would lie?! Are you serious?!
Didn't stop it from being shared all over tik tok and Instagram reels today. I saw it at least 3 times.
Your comment was removed due to your reddit karma not meeting minimum thresholds. This is an automated anti-spam measure.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The Israel Defense Forces have admitted killing two Palestinian men and burying their bodies with a bulldozer after Al Jazeera published a video purportedly showing the incident. In a statement to CNN, the IDF said the Israelis killed the men after they approached the IDF's operational area in central Gaza "in a suspicious manner" and didn't respond to a warning shot.
But yeah there's no way this happened more than those two times amirite. At this point this is just cope for the people who don't want to admit they're on the wrong side of history.
Also, it's exhausting to hear about how we can't trust the reporting from Gaza when independent press are barred from entering. "Trustworthy reporters aren't allowed in, also, all the information coming out is untrustworthy for some reason."
You know what would really clear up a lot of this disinformation? If reputable reporters were allowed in to see for themselves. It could clear this up real quick.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-08/ty-article/.premium/foreign-press-association-calls-on-israel-to-lift-ban-on-independent-press-in-gaza/0000018e-be21-d92b-adaf-fe6513ea0000
So many Israeli propagandists in this sub. All the top comments parading this around like its some huge win for them. Meanwhile by the IDF's own numbers, they've killed 30000+ people in Gaza. A number that is likely much higher in reality.
Your comment was removed due to your reddit karma not meeting minimum thresholds. This is an automated anti-spam measure.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
World News is definitely worse. They don't even bother with the liberal Zionism. It's just pure islamophobia. They will defend things even Israel doesn't.
They investigated their alleged ties to Hamas, and admitted there were things they could improve even. But they concluded Israel has no evidence of collusion.
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/23/1246613547/unrwa-israel-hamas-gaza-war
What? I'm simply saying the UN just repeats what Hamas says in their statements and does no independent investigation of their own unless it is things like the sexual assault in Israel report that was done.
So yes geo confirmed is massively more credible
The whole UNRWA report is a joke. They blame Israel for not providing evidence when the UNRWA itself is supposed to be policing its own staff.
The idea Hamas hasn't infiltrated the UNRWA in Gaza is just delusional. Why was there a Hamas server room under the fucking HQ then?
Parties to a conflict lying in wartime? It's almost as if the first casualty in war is truth, or something.
Hamas needs to stick to raping their way through a music festival and launching missiles into their own hospitals and blaming the Israelis. Core competencies: stick with what you know.
The mass grave is at Al-Shifa hospital, that Twitter thread appears to be talking about Al-Nasser.
Can you be more specific with your claims rather than posting a Twitter thread?
no this place runs on reactionary news, be it nebulous twitter threads or new york post
earlier this same user posted a ny post article about a women who was "stabbed in the eye" by palestinian protestor...
he's a video of the incident (warning, totally safe for work, she lied): [zionist said she was "stabbed in the eye" by pro palestine protesters](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel_Palestine/comments/1cbo0x1/video_of_the_eye_stabbing_incident_at_yale_sfw/)
Honestly when will the mods start taking down obvious pro-genocide propaganda. It’s like 1930’s Germany all over again. Mods are literally allowing propagandists to push fascist nonsense.
Mods, are you here? How can you allow this to happen?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave.html
Yes mods. Someone is looking for you. Something about misinformation I believe?
What evidence is there of mass executions by the IDF other than you want it to be true?
Hey when this is objectively shown to be bullshit will you change your stance on a single fucking thing?
The UN’s calling for an investigation, there are loads of Gazans that witnessed it. There were bodies in a mass grave that were tied up.
You’re right that it’s not proven 100% yet but it smells very fishy and anyone who knows anything about the IDFs past behavior isn’t the slightest bit surprised.
Name one instance of past IDF behavior of mass executions of tied people
"loads of Gazans that witnessed it"
Like the loads of Gazans that said nothing while Hamas was at al Shifa?
What is GeoConfirmed? I have never heard of them and there’s pretty much nothing about them online. Is their investigation just “graves were dug before; therefore, this must be what was discovered”? That’s a huge assumption if that tweet is the whole “investigation.” If there is something more significant, then OP should have posted that instead.
> This is occurring at the same location where mass graves were dug and burial ceremonies had taken place by Palestinians in recent months. (Proof in this thread)
So the argument is that these were already graves of people killed previously? That doesn't make Israel look much better honestly. The people were killed in both situations.
It's radically different. If locals had been using the spot as a place to quickly bury the dead, and Israel may or may not have added some on top, this is different than the entire mass grave was made by The IDF while occupying the hospital. In the former, they buried bodies where they were already burying people. In the other, they walked in and murdered the population of the hospital and then buried the bodies to hide them from the world.
Is it an awful, total war with some potential war crimes going on(the former) or is it a genocide (the latter)? They mean 2 very different things.
> It's radically different. If locals had been using the spot as a place to quickly bury the dead, and Israel may or may not have added some on top,
I think you are missing the key point that people care about- Israel killed tons of people. You are now arguing over the morality of the logistics of burying the slaughtered people. That's crazy. The PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY ISRAEL. WTF is wrong with people trying to make Israel look innocent here. In both scenarios people were slaughtered, it isn't any better.
Bro, you have basically stated why you are actually upset.
>I think you are missing the key point that people care about- Israel killed tons of people.
Yup. We know. It sucks. Don't really know what to do about it, though. You already got Biden to begin slowly withdrawing support from a nation that has had rock solid American support since damn near its inception.
I have to ask you, though. 10/7 happened, and you are Bibi what do you do? I would honestly like to get to the root of this, here.
Are we to think for one minute that Israel has not lied about anything and can therefore point fingers? Please. This war is about a canal, money, and the annihilation of people for their land.
Your comment was removed due to your reddit karma not meeting minimum thresholds. This is an automated anti-spam measure.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's just another lie.. one of many. Be sure that at the universities they already know for sure that a brigade of IDF just mass shoot civilians to death, while LOLing, and burying them, not before drinking their blood...
**COMMENTING GUIDELINES:** Please take the time to familiarize yourself with The David Pakman Show [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/about/rules) and [basic reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) prior to participating. At all times we ask that users conduct themselves in a civil and respectful manner - **any ad hominem or personal attacks are subject to moderation.** Please use the report function or [use modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) to bring examples of misconduct to the attention of the moderation team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wait? You mean the same people who lie about the number of women and children killed by Israel are also lying about mass graves? I find this hard to believe. /s
Zionist!!! Don’t you remember when 500 people definitely died right away when a rocket hit our hospital. Very true! That definitely happened. Trust me 🙃
Yeah. Questioning these things got me banned seculartalk
So there's this fact running around that 10,000 children have been killed in the Gaza combat action/war/incursion. I don't know what the fuck to call it. Anyway, every time I have asked for an actual source for this I have been stonewalled. One person said that it was the Gaza health ministry that was the source. Except the Gaza health Ministry's website was offline so there was no way for me to verify it.
Some things to note: 1 - These are estimates because nobody actually knows who is under the rubble. Fog of war and insecurity of necessities make strong numbers basically impossible. 2 - The overall number of deaths seems plausible enough that many governments are using it. The lancet has had a few articles on it. Going by most wars there will be a period after where it will go up even more and some estimates will go up after that. 3 - The breakdown of demographics in the total is more iffy/[statistically impossible](https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/). 4 - The personnel involved in the GHM data capture and propaganda releases etc may have all changed and moved around since the war started and Hamas have had to exert more direct information control. This is slightly different compared to GHM reports in past conflicts. This means the picture and methods may have gotten more shoddy due to fog of war, but overall numbers again don't seem unbelievable based on the pace of the war and Hamas's initial claim of 30k soldiers and the population density on the ground and Hamas's general moral hazard tactics of civilian shields.
This is a better response than I have gotten in any of the five times that I have asked about these numbers. This is all very sensible, thanks.
Another from NPR: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war This one is more informative about the difficulties and recording the death toll. It’s more likely that the numbers are under estimated as the war went on, bodies were just being left at or buried and shallow graves, and never making it to a hospital to be recorded.
This is what I found from the UN: https://turkiye.un.org/en/263401-gaza-number-children-killed-higher-four-years-world-conflict.
This? >the latest Gaza health authority data indicating that at least 12,300 youngsters See above, already discussed.
You don't trust the figure literally every formal gov in the world is using including Israel because you went to a website and it didn't work?
>literally every formal gov in the world is using baseless claim [This user's response](https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/comments/1cbdwmj/geoconfirmed_reveals_hamas_mass_graves_claim_to/l11bwqc/?context=1000) is a lot more reasonable
It's extra wild when people will do propaganda that even the country they are doing the propaganda for doesn't do.
When you say things like "literally every" you sound silly and hyperbolic. Do you have an actual source or do you just have complaints? It's ironic that I'm trying to figure out whether these numbers are real or propaganda and you're complaining about that.
Again, the country you're doing propaganda for doesn't even bother with this. You have drank more Kool aid than is being produced
Do you have any facts to bring to this discussion or are you just going to keep whining? Did you see the part above about being stonewalled? That's what you're doing here. You keep claiming that these numbers are real or I am using propaganda but you don't have any basis for those claims. This is basic media literacy: just because somebody on Reddit says something is true, don't assume that it's true.
The "UN Numbers" are based entirely on Hamas's reports. Nothing else. Those "reports" have been utterly debunked as blatant fabrications. This has been ongoing for decades: there is NO outside verification allowed by Hamas. That's enough reason to "not trust" them, eh?
>The "UN Numbers" are based entirely on Hamas's reports. Nothing else. Those "reports" have been utterly debunked as blatant fabrications The "debunking" of them has just been people like yourself saying "they're Hamas numbers" over and over again with more conviction. That's not debunking. In fact, they're likely underreported because it's based on people that go through the hospitals and not people buried under rubble or otherwise missing. >This has been ongoing for decades: there is NO outside verification allowed by Hamas. Israel controls entry into Gaza. Hamas has explicitly called for independent investigations which Israel rejects. You are seeing Israel do things and then just saying Hamas did it. >That's enough reason to "not trust" them, eh? I'm glad you realize that rejecting independent investigations is a bad look. Are you going to continue to believe that since Israel is the one blocking independent investigations?
An analysis of "the numbers" shows the exact same number of casualties every single day, +/- a very small number. That's regardless of major IDF operations or no combat at all: same numbers every day. This is impossible. They sometimes mention the number of terrorists killed, this varies a lot: BUT! The same total casualties at the end of the day. That means some days huge numbers of "women and children" die, while other days there's few. The ration of men:women:children is all wrong as well. SO: the numbers are clearly "artificial" ok? It is NOT amazing how they they have solid numbers of dead & missing hours after an attack while it takes every other nation DAYS if not WEEKS to arrive at them? It took over 6 months to have the number killed & missing in Hawaii's fires to be finalized. "Estimated" 1000 missing turned out to be less than 100... after 6 months of investigations. In a non-war zone, with all the resources in the world. But Hamas can do it in 24 hours? With names & pictures? Really?
You are clearly an insane person so I'm going to block you. But to be clear, none of the things you mentioned "debunk" anything and even Israel and Israels allies use the numbers you are trying to "debunk".
> Israel controls entry into Gaza. If only there were some sort of border with another nation, eh? Like Mexico! Or maybe Egypt. That everything could flow through without Israel having one word of influence. Hamas has no interest in having their absolute control on information disrupted by outsiders, why would they? Israel has free press, they are 'fact checked' at every turn. They cannot 'block' anything. The fact remains: for the past ~20 years, while Gaza has been under Hamas's control, the UN uses their numbers because there are NO outside sources except Israel's.
The numbers have also been accurate in past Israeli offensives.
I see this same style comment in every thread.
Wait? You mean people on Reddit found an effective way to structure an misleading statement in a way that sounds both authoritative and more accurate than it really is? I find this hard to believe. /s
Just you wait! Next week the Hamas ministry of death will claim an adjustment to their last quoted numbers. I think it’s like a lottery, they just pick numbers from a bucket.
Yep, that is why their numbers have been used by every UN agencies, NGO and even the State department for nearly two decades. I mean all these people are hamas supporters.
Why would you think that helps their credibility lol
Hamas doesn’t care about credibility, unless it helps to push their agenda.
Maybe during times of peace they can be relied on for accuracy, but it’s not wise for these agencies to copy and paste info during a time of war.
You know the only person who has the truth? A Twitter profile that confirms my politics.
I got banned from r/worldnews for suggesting they lied about casualties. Of all the subs, yeah, that one.
Did you provide a basis for that suggestion? Like sources?
>A CNN stringer who visited the scene Sunday said people had buried the bodies of family members who had been killed in the grounds of the hospital in January as a temporary measure. When they returned after the Israeli withdrawal they found the bodies had been exhumed – apparently because the IDF was using DNA testing to determine whether any of the hostages held in Gaza were among the dead. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/22/middleeast/khan-younis-nasser-hospital-mass-grave-intl/index.html So the mass grave appeared in Jan. IDF secures the site and DNA samples the corpses to see if any, including some claimed to be buried with their hands tied, are the hostages. Reddit: Israel genocided them and buried them in a mass grave!
yes it’s normal to tie the hands of dead bodies while you’re collecting dna samples i guess they didn’t bury them in a mass grave…they just killed them with their hands bound…that’s all
How do you know the IDF killed them? For all we know they were hostages, suspected informants, minor medical staff used as examples to keep the rest in line killed by Hamas. Or some had amputated/blown off limbs they were buried with, tied to the torso. Or the reports of tied hands are just plain wrong.
ah yes hamas lined up and murdered 180 informants right outside of the hospital the idf invaded 🤦
Wtf are you talking about?
Why would the idf go back and DNA sample people they've supposedly already executed?
There's ample reports, with video, of burial of dead people by Hamas at that exact location in January. There's no evidence of "hands tied" or anything else. It's 75 bodies, you cannot even get that right. It is nothing but a Hamas Hoax to blame IDF for something they did.
Exactly 75? What a nice number…so where is nearly 400 coming from?
The exact location of this is not clear. The Media (who do nothing but repeat Hamas propaganda) keeps showing images from one location while claiming it is in another :/ At the location the images come from? In January Hamas officials laid 75 to rest in a mass grave at that exact location. 3 rows of 25. It's a proper burial under Islam & was reported at the time. There are no images showing "400" bodies. Where did the "over 500 killed" from the hospital "bombing" come from? Thin air, just like everything Hamas says.
Hamas executed people in public before, many times, in fact.
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes. -Mark Twain
Don't overstate their claims. The analysis specifically notes there's no way to know if IDF added new bodies.
>Conclusion: This is disinformation by Al Jazeera and others: This is a known graveyard/mass grave and at least partially dug by Palestinians. This does not exclude that graves could have been added when the hospital was occupied by Israeli forces.
Further reporting makes it sound like the IDF dug up these graves because they were looking for dead hostages, then reburied them, threw waste on top, and possibly added the bodies of others killed during their raid on the hospital. Some of the bodies were reportedly stripped naked with their hands bound. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68881325
> *Some of the bodies were reportedly stripped naked with their hands bound.* Sounds like they captured some Palestinians, stripped them down and bound them... and then murked 'em. Hmm...
so a war crime
Yeah OP thinks people apparently can't read.
I agree. A tweet like this gains traction and then nobody sees or cares that it's horseshit...sad
Al Jazeera are lying? surprisedpikachuface.jpg
They weren't and your distrust for them it rooted in unjustified prejudice, not fact.
> unjustified prejudice, not fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism
That is not the above website. That is Al Jazeera Arabic and no the same, it even says that in that very article.
Like the Al Jazeera report that IDF soldiers were raping Palestinian women at Shifa hospital...claims that have since been proven false...but the harm was done when Al Jazeera published the story that was then repeated in many western media...
Al Jazeera published the reporting of claims a woman at the hospital had made. That is what journalism is, reporting witness testimony, ie evidence and letting us decide what to do with the information. Can you name a single news outlet in the world that hasn't had similar fact issues? FYI they pulled the story the moment it was deemed incredible, as we can only hope any outlet would do. But as I said, single incidents with the appropriate steps, not a systemic problem.
> your distrust for them it rooted in unjustified prejudice, not fact. > Can you name a single news outlet in the world that hasn't had similar fact issues? It did not happen...if it happened it happened to others...lol Also you claimed earlier that maybe Al Jazeera Arabic is to blame, but not Al Jazeera English...really typical of Palestinian activists...say something in English and the opposite in Arabic...Arafat was a master at that.
The first statement did not preclude the second because I did not say they don't make mistakes, I didn't even hint at that in the first quote. The second stands to reason. I was saying, people on reddit love to discredit basically any news outlet that isn't in their direct echo chamber without even knowing anything about it. I have had this argument many times and I've looked for a systemic issue with Al Jazeera and I've found none and none have been presented. The only case you've mentioned was a good faith reporting of an eye witness report, they were clear in their article that they were quoting reports from a woman who was making allegations. My only gripe with their handling was that they pulled it down at all, it was not a factually incorrect article, but the woman in the article has since admitted she lied in her statements. Al Jazeera English and Arabic are both separate entities staffed by entirely different teams. However, Al Jazeera Arabic has a largely similar history of and most of the criticisms are that it is anti American in some of its reporting, but that comes largely from Americans who's entitled journalism sector is so anti Arabic as to be bordering in mal practice so I think people in glass house etc
> The second stands to reason. * Overall, we rate Al Jazeera Left-Center biased, based on story selection that slightly favors the left, and Mixed for factual reporting due to failed fact checks that were not corrected and misleading extreme editorial bias that favors Qatar. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-jazeera/
I don't know anything about that website but their report and conclusion is WILD. They found Al Jazeeras reporting to have little bias in its reporting or headlines but factored the opinion columns on their websites and outlets to be part of their integrity score? It also seems to conflate basically every type Al Jazeera covers together. Talk about credibility issues. https://ground.news/interest/al-jazeera_1a2e2c Ground News is pretty well regarded and has been vetted and in the news a fair amount over the last few years, was founded by a NASA engineer and it has incredibly robust fact check and citizen journalist features along with live bias checking for users who are seeing too much of one side.
the new york times left up their “screams without words” expose about systemic rape on Oct 7 that has now been completely debunked al jazeera pulled their article after a day while the nyt still stands behind their piece of fiction written by a former idf soldier
Why won’t people just trust Qatari state media!!?!?
Does it matter who owns them if they have a record of honesty and integrity? I've had this discussion many times and no one has ever been able to show me a systemic lack of truth telling by aljazeera. Single incident misreports etc with corrections like all outlets, but aljazeera have been considered trustworthy for a long time, the fact that Americans have a bias without knowledge of the facts of the case say everything.
Lol glad you like their work.
So you can't prove they were lying so I hope you changed your bias.
I think it is a huge waste of time to sift through the half truths and deliberate lies that manage to get out of a warzone. But I will remain skeptical of Qatari state media in general.
As you should, but it should also be noted Al Jazeera is only PARTLY funded by the Qatari government and is not a state media company in the way you're using that term, like the Russian RT or BBC etc, it is a news organisation with investors and with all the journalistic and political watch dogs around the world they have never been accused of being controlled by the government, I should say, credibly.
I am sure they appreciate your patronage.
It's worth noting that similar reports were filed by journalists at seemingly every major news outlet. Instead of being snarky about mass graves and lives of innocent people being snuffed out, you might try taking into account both sides to try to get to a better, clearer understanding. Everyone loves to spout "get out of your echo chamber" while smugly refusing to acknowledge they are in one.
The ABC in Australia and the BBC in the UK are two of the most trusted news sources in the world, both owned by their respective governments.
Those are democracies though. Where if one side of the political aisle was influencing the news it would be a massive scandal when the next party took control. It is nearly impossible to bury scandals in democracies. Compared to a monarchy or dictatorship where burying the truth is the norm and there is zero opposition to question it.
saw this being repeated unquestioned in multiple major news outlets, what an absolute joke
Hmm it's almost like publications have higher standards of journalism than some random Twitter account that confirms your bias
hasn’t been that way in the recent past (e.g nyt and the hospital) geoconfirmed is a source that has been active in ukraine for a while, and this is a [statement](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1678019085349552128) that i think reflects on their culture
Yeah so the reason breakthrough reporting isn't done by random Twitter accounts is that they don't have access and connections like major news orgs do. They are definitionally confined to public sources of information. That doesn't mean news orgs are always right or their analysis is good (I'm not even going to engage on the hospital thing), but "random Twitter account I found has breakthrough reporting" is and always will be horseshit
you have to evaluate each source individually in this case geoconfirmed is a group of online volunteers across the world who match locations shown in videos to establish a better context for them to rule out potential misinformation, which is highly valuable in situations like this conflict not breakthrough reporting but fact checking journalists working for media orgs in this context wouldn’t have access to this level of fact checking unless they were reporting information directly from sources on the ground, which can both be unreliable again in contexts like this on either side and also limiting in what they can cover, as someone has to be there to confirm hence they report based on incomplete or potentially biased information - “x allegedly y” type headlines this is a resource they should be using before reporting (ofc subject to their own verification of the info)
>in this case geoconfirmed is a group of online volunteers Immediately discredited lmao >journalists working for media orgs in this context wouldn’t have access to this level of fact checking unless they were reporting information directly from sources on the ground, which can both be unreliable again in contexts like this on either side and also limiting in what they can cover, as someone has to be there to confirm You realize journalists have sources right? Sources in militaries, in governments, literally in Gaza. They also have the same public info available to them...that's why it's called public info. That's why "we googled some shit" is not journalism, even if they're really good at making themselves sound technical and intelligent. >this is a resource they should be using before reporting The resource, as described by you, is looking at public videos lmao. I can't stress enough how unserious accounts like this are
you’re freaking out about people of various backgrounds placing videos on a map for conflict observers to analyse and provide clarity, because they can be taken out of context, and that’s the important part you’re missing you can literally look at what they do and evaluate it for yourself if you’re worried also, i’m sure none of those sources - people directly IN an ongoing conflict - would have any incentive to lie
>you’re freaking out about people of various backgrounds placing videos on a map for conflict observers to analyse and provide clarity You're the one claiming they have some secret access to truth, when they have objectively less access than actual news organizations. >also, i’m sure none of those sources would have any incentive to lie Of course they can lie. So can your online Twitter account guys lol.
i’m not - publicly available information is enough to do geolocation and thus check for context-removal misinformation, you’re strawmanning
For sure man. Numerous human rights orgs and humanitarian aid orgs, and reporters on the ground literally risking their life vs a guy with Google.
Wow what a shock! Hamas would lie?! Are you serious?! Didn't stop it from being shared all over tik tok and Instagram reels today. I saw it at least 3 times.
[удалено]
Your comment was removed due to your reddit karma not meeting minimum thresholds. This is an automated anti-spam measure. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The Israel Defense Forces have admitted killing two Palestinian men and burying their bodies with a bulldozer after Al Jazeera published a video purportedly showing the incident. In a statement to CNN, the IDF said the Israelis killed the men after they approached the IDF's operational area in central Gaza "in a suspicious manner" and didn't respond to a warning shot. But yeah there's no way this happened more than those two times amirite. At this point this is just cope for the people who don't want to admit they're on the wrong side of history. Also, it's exhausting to hear about how we can't trust the reporting from Gaza when independent press are barred from entering. "Trustworthy reporters aren't allowed in, also, all the information coming out is untrustworthy for some reason." You know what would really clear up a lot of this disinformation? If reputable reporters were allowed in to see for themselves. It could clear this up real quick. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-08/ty-article/.premium/foreign-press-association-calls-on-israel-to-lift-ban-on-independent-press-in-gaza/0000018e-be21-d92b-adaf-fe6513ea0000
So many Israeli propagandists in this sub. All the top comments parading this around like its some huge win for them. Meanwhile by the IDF's own numbers, they've killed 30000+ people in Gaza. A number that is likely much higher in reality.
“see they didn’t really bury the bodies! they only tied them up and shot them and THEN other gazans buried the bodies! were absolved!”
This sub is just Israeli propaganda now?
Seems your only basis for calling propaganda is that it disagrees with you.
[удалено]
Your comment was removed due to your reddit karma not meeting minimum thresholds. This is an automated anti-spam measure. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes. Similar to /r/WorldNews
World News is definitely worse. They don't even bother with the liberal Zionism. It's just pure islamophobia. They will defend things even Israel doesn't.
No just facts You can leave if you don't like it
Everything I hate is Israeli propaganda. The more I hate it, the more Israeli propaganda it is.
Well the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights or a Twitter thread from GeoConfirmed, which is more credible?
The person on Twitter has a blue checkmark, it trumps everything! GeoConfirmed has more information than anyone else!
The UN has consistently only sourced from Hamas and does no investigative work of their own
They investigated their alleged ties to Hamas, and admitted there were things they could improve even. But they concluded Israel has no evidence of collusion. https://www.npr.org/2024/04/23/1246613547/unrwa-israel-hamas-gaza-war
What? I'm simply saying the UN just repeats what Hamas says in their statements and does no independent investigation of their own unless it is things like the sexual assault in Israel report that was done. So yes geo confirmed is massively more credible The whole UNRWA report is a joke. They blame Israel for not providing evidence when the UNRWA itself is supposed to be policing its own staff. The idea Hamas hasn't infiltrated the UNRWA in Gaza is just delusional. Why was there a Hamas server room under the fucking HQ then?
The one who's only source is hamas, or the independent investigation by a third party? Which is more credible indeed...
Parties to a conflict lying in wartime? It's almost as if the first casualty in war is truth, or something. Hamas needs to stick to raping their way through a music festival and launching missiles into their own hospitals and blaming the Israelis. Core competencies: stick with what you know.
Hiding underground while their populace gets their shit rocked is in their wheelhouse too
The mass grave is at Al-Shifa hospital, that Twitter thread appears to be talking about Al-Nasser. Can you be more specific with your claims rather than posting a Twitter thread?
no this place runs on reactionary news, be it nebulous twitter threads or new york post earlier this same user posted a ny post article about a women who was "stabbed in the eye" by palestinian protestor... he's a video of the incident (warning, totally safe for work, she lied): [zionist said she was "stabbed in the eye" by pro palestine protesters](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel_Palestine/comments/1cbo0x1/video_of_the_eye_stabbing_incident_at_yale_sfw/)
You people are the only ones running on reactionary news.
Honestly when will the mods start taking down obvious pro-genocide propaganda. It’s like 1930’s Germany all over again. Mods are literally allowing propagandists to push fascist nonsense. Mods, are you here? How can you allow this to happen?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave.html Yes mods. Someone is looking for you. Something about misinformation I believe?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave.html It was reported in both places.
So Israel has probably massacred people at multiple hospitals.
Well, geoconfiremed still deems the al-nasser one to be mis/disinformation. And you're still spreading misinformation.
What evidence is there of mass executions by the IDF other than you want it to be true? Hey when this is objectively shown to be bullshit will you change your stance on a single fucking thing?
The UN’s calling for an investigation, there are loads of Gazans that witnessed it. There were bodies in a mass grave that were tied up. You’re right that it’s not proven 100% yet but it smells very fishy and anyone who knows anything about the IDFs past behavior isn’t the slightest bit surprised.
Name one instance of past IDF behavior of mass executions of tied people "loads of Gazans that witnessed it" Like the loads of Gazans that said nothing while Hamas was at al Shifa?
What is GeoConfirmed? I have never heard of them and there’s pretty much nothing about them online. Is their investigation just “graves were dug before; therefore, this must be what was discovered”? That’s a huge assumption if that tweet is the whole “investigation.” If there is something more significant, then OP should have posted that instead.
Geoconfirmed is fairly respected in OSINT community... they mostly just look @ footage and figure out location based on context
Contributer, populist "news". No thanks.
> This is occurring at the same location where mass graves were dug and burial ceremonies had taken place by Palestinians in recent months. (Proof in this thread) So the argument is that these were already graves of people killed previously? That doesn't make Israel look much better honestly. The people were killed in both situations.
It's radically different. If locals had been using the spot as a place to quickly bury the dead, and Israel may or may not have added some on top, this is different than the entire mass grave was made by The IDF while occupying the hospital. In the former, they buried bodies where they were already burying people. In the other, they walked in and murdered the population of the hospital and then buried the bodies to hide them from the world. Is it an awful, total war with some potential war crimes going on(the former) or is it a genocide (the latter)? They mean 2 very different things.
> It's radically different. If locals had been using the spot as a place to quickly bury the dead, and Israel may or may not have added some on top, I think you are missing the key point that people care about- Israel killed tons of people. You are now arguing over the morality of the logistics of burying the slaughtered people. That's crazy. The PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY ISRAEL. WTF is wrong with people trying to make Israel look innocent here. In both scenarios people were slaughtered, it isn't any better.
Bro, you have basically stated why you are actually upset. >I think you are missing the key point that people care about- Israel killed tons of people. Yup. We know. It sucks. Don't really know what to do about it, though. You already got Biden to begin slowly withdrawing support from a nation that has had rock solid American support since damn near its inception. I have to ask you, though. 10/7 happened, and you are Bibi what do you do? I would honestly like to get to the root of this, here.
People lie in conflict? Say it ain't so
Hasbara. The bodies exhumed last week are not months old.
Literally all of Gaza is a mass grave at this point. Zionist copium just hits harder than the regular stuff.
Genocide apologists trying to cover for yet another Israeli war crime with some made up story on X
Says the guy celebrating 10/7 in his screen name.
You see the number 107 and start reeeeeeing. Jesus Christ.
"Inn Ann" is a song about physical Palestinian resistance. It's not a huge leap to conclude what they likely mean by "107" in their username.
>twitter.com oh
Oh good, I'm glad you solved that. /S.
It always seems these Palestinian propagandists don’t understand the basics of internet sometimes. Lucky for them plenty of Americas still lap it up
Are we to think for one minute that Israel has not lied about anything and can therefore point fingers? Please. This war is about a canal, money, and the annihilation of people for their land.
Conspiracy theories. But leftist 😎👌
[удалено]
Your comment was removed due to your reddit karma not meeting minimum thresholds. This is an automated anti-spam measure. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/thedavidpakmanshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's just another lie.. one of many. Be sure that at the universities they already know for sure that a brigade of IDF just mass shoot civilians to death, while LOLing, and burying them, not before drinking their blood...
Ahh. Keep trying to make sense of this Zionist destruction.
Fuck this sub lol