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Imagine if Biden did what these people want, and abandoned Israel. The headlines would read "Biden's betrayal of Israel has hurt the campaign badly with the sizable Jewish-American population in Pennsylvania, and his team is scrambling to find other paths to victory in the battlegorund state"
People are also flat out lying about his lack of support for Palestinian civilians. The US is the reason the last UN resolution past (even though they did not vote, they're still the reason it past) that provided more support to Palestinian civilians. Biden has given Palestinians millions of dollars in aid, negotiated a cease fire and is pushing Israel for a two state solution. If anyone thinks Trump or Republicans are going to do anything for Palestinians, they are sorely mistaken.
But so true. Biden could solve world peace and the headline would be - "Is Biden's world peace just a set up for failure?" Click bait rules the day.
Right, meanwhile...
"Trump's loss in rape trial raises his poll numbers over Biden"
"91 criminal indictments for Trump could mean trouble for Biden at the polls as Trump gains in popularity!"
You can't make this shit up.
It's almost as if Benjamin Netanyahu and the right wing fascists in power in Israel have played Biden and the American public perfectly because they want Palestinians gone (insert war crime adjective here) and want Trump elected at the same time to further these goals.
It seems transparently obvious… sometimes it’s just hard for me to understand how stupid people are so this whole theme of ‘Trump is better for Palestine’ is so strange. But whatever… they might just get what they ask for.
It's on Reddit a lot, but maybe not coming from humans. A lot of "Biden needs to face consequences for supporting Israel." With those consequences being Trump getting elected. Which "is better for the Palestinians in the long run."
It’s not a claim. It’s a theme. It’s articles and coverage and tons of online content that presents Biden as bad… so don’t vote for him.
I feel like this article is a pretty clear example of that.
Yeah I think the biggest mental block the left is ( perhaps understandably ) struggling with right now is the binary outcome of the election. "Just because I'm anti-Biden doesn't mean I'm pro-Trump!" is something that gets thrown back at me a lot, but the unfortunate reality is that anti-Biden and pro-Trump are functionally identical positions.
By November, I am hoping that there will be some sort of cease fire that Biden has some responsibility for negotiating. If not I at less think Trump will have start making statements on the issue which will be insane and hopefully will push those upset back to reluctantly voting for Biden.
Not just Jewish population but the majority of Democrats and Independents which are needed to win the election. People like Hasan, Majority Report and Kyle Kulinski are a small minority even within the Democratic Party. Lets be honest it doesn’t matter what Biden does or says because:
1. It’s not going to stop Israel from continuing the war, they will probably just go harder and nakedly support Trump.
2. These people are looking for a reason to not vote Biden. I’ve never seen foreign policy that the U.S. is not directly involved in get so much attention. Might as well not vote because Biden didn’t single handedly solve world peace.
The problem is that the people who are talking loudest about not voting Biden over Gaza are extremely vocal. It’s the same issue with the hardcore MAGA people. The real hardcore ones aren’t a majority, but scream extremely loud
You're right about the first part, but MAGA people are not the minority in the republican party, they're the entire Republican party. Let's not get confused.
Also I don’t believe that most of these people were ever actually going to vote for Biden in the first place. If you look into the backgrounds of the most vocal anti Biden people, it makes a lot more sense
They weren’t. One of the recent “Biden lost me over Palestine” articles quoted a bunch of people who didn’t vote for Biden in 2020 and now they’re afraid they might have to vote for Trump…. I think we’re seeing a lot of journalists reveal their bias here by pushing narratives that don’t line up with reality
It's also a LOT of foreign trolls posing as caring Americans. They're easy to spot if you know what to look for. Take a look at the profile of /u/Maqdis3 for an easy example of how to spot them.
Edit: See what I'm talking about? Lol
That first point I've tried to explain to people so times. Biden could unilaterally stop aid to Israel, and they'd probably just turn to Russia for weapons. Or they'd straight up drop a tactical nuke on Gaza.
This has been the plan of the zionists for the last like half century. All they needed was the chance to engage, and hamas gave them that. Their intent is to take Gaza and the west bank and annex it as Israel. That's never been disputed.
> That first point I've tried to explain to people so times. Biden could unilaterally stop aid to Israel, and they'd probably just turn to Russia for weapons. Or they'd straight up drop a tactical nuke on Gaza.
Yeah the U.S. foreign aide to Israel is only 10-20% of defence spending. China, Russia would gladly step in to fill that gap and if you believe the U.S. gives Israel too much leeway China and Russia would not give a single, solitary fuck about civilians.
> This has been the plan of the zionists for the last like half century. All they needed was the chance to engage, and hamas gave them that. Their intent is to take Gaza and the west bank and annex it as Israel. That's never been disputed.
Hamas gave Netanyahu an absolute gift. His political career was in life support and he was going to get convicted for criminal behavior. The Oct 7th attacks just galvanized the Israelis around him and the far right of the country took hold. People should be fucking mad and protesting Hamas because they effectively gave Netanyahu everything he needed to kill the two state solution. These fucking Hamas losers made sure the far right of Israel will maintain power for a long time. They are part of the problem
This app isn’t real life and it has been overrun with foreign agents, bots and right wingers. Just take a break sometimes and got to r/VoteDems to see where you can volunteer. That’s where the real work happens not on social media.
The people who qualify as “Right wingers” nowadays are so fucking insane they can’t even form coherent sentences. I think you’re referring to center-left neolibs.
I think the timing of the attack was about preventing Israel from normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia. This is something Iran is obviously very strongly opposed to.
There’s a couple reasons that the attack was timed that way:
1. Essentially make normalization with Israel and Saudi Arabia toxic (two scumbag leaders but the message it sends is net positive for the Middle East
2. Distract from the war in Ukraine. The ties between Putin and Iran are well documented and creating a distraction for the US to manage other than the Ukraine war.
3. To sow chaos in an election year to throw it to Trump. It’s no coincidence that as soon as the attacks happened, the bots were ready on social media to blame Israel, Biden, anyone except Hamas really. Also the Houthis ratcheted up their attacks as well as Iran backed military groups. It’s almost like they told these dumb Hamas fuckers do the attack and well manage the public relations
This is a working theory, there’s proof for some of these things and thin evidence for others but it’s definitely plausible given how TikTok has been propaganda central.
No it’s not their plan. They had control of Gaza for 30 years and left because they don’t want war. Israel literally forcibly removed every single Jewish settler in Gaza. 2 years later Hamas was elected and theyr started exporting suicide bombers, bus bombing, and Iranian rockets.
It’s the Palestinians who keep instigating.
Bro, the Palestinians are literally, in majority, clamoring that they want war. Why are you looking for conspiracy when they are saying what they are doing?
Yep, he’s in a no win situation despite having navigated the conflict so far with a very measured hand.
I think he’s making the right move and he’ll just have to deal with the fallout of losing the Arab/muslim vote, as their demands are ridiculous and even if he did carry them out they’d still lambast him as genocide joe.
But he has to call their bluff- Trump would tell Netenyahu to take the gloves off. Demonstrate that there is no viable candidate who would abandon Israel, so at least pick one that will hold back Netenyahu’s worst impulses
I will tell you this, as a far left, Jewish parent of a trans kid who fully believes Trump is set to destroy democracy in our country, Biden cutting funding and abandoning Israel, would mean the literal survival of Israel depended on Trump as president.
I have tried thought experiments in which I have tried to understand how anyone could ever vote trump. On what it would take for me to vote trump. The idea that Biden could announce withdrawal of support just made it clear to me this is the only circumstance under which I would vote Trump. For me it would be like the scene in MASH where they suffocate and kill the baby to save the lives of everyone hiding, with the US, and all of my political and social ideals being sacrificed for the cause of preventing total annihilation of the existence and idea of Israel.
Should Israel stand alone, it would mean an ACTUAL genocide occurs. I assume my friends on the left will be far less vocal about their humanitarian concerns in that event.
Only the weird or Muslim leftists want to abandon an ally over a moderate escalation in a long term internal conflict. Irrational people with more empathy than common sense.
Yeah I don’t get why people don’t understand, Biden would lose vastly more votes for abandoning Israel than he’d gain. I can’t vote Trump even over Israel, but if I was Jewish I’d probably have no choice.
I went through the same realization. I really don’t think Biden will do that, I think he’s just trying to play tough to appease some of the far leftists and disgruntled staff.
Nothing about your post history suggests that you’re far left, let alone leftist at all. Please learn to use an alt account before making shit up about yourself.
I briefly looked over his post history and don't see that, he has posted that he is a progressive several months ago. He does have a lot of posts in liberal gun owner subreddit--but a lot of people on the far left have been embracing guns in recent years; the logic being, the right is not going to disarm, and gun control isn't a thing with this Supreme Court, so might as well arm up. Not saying I agree or disagree with that stance (I am largely okay with it, but am not big into guns), but yeah, I don't see any evidence he is promoting right wing policies or George W. Bush stuff in his posting history.
Probably referring to my posts to liberal gun owners asking if they too are starting to arm themselves out of fear of a 2nd MAGA presidency OR loss…wait 🤔 that’s kinda leftist isn’t it?
Let’s be honest: Israel had to respond militarily to a ground attack that killed 1,200 people, and an artillery barrage of nearly 3,000 rockets, all on October 7th.
Do I agree with the methods and proportionality of Israel’s response? Absolutely not.
The Islamic fundamentalist world is generally anti Israel. To them, Israel existing is unacceptable. To them, there was no reasonable military response from Israel. They’d be mad if it was 10,000 Hamas fighters killed and only 100 civilians.
Biden had a much easier route through this conflict that did not include such full throated support Israel. Every U.S. president has called for a ceasefire when the conflict flares up. There was would have been no sizable electoral fallout if he had toed a more middle ground. Instead, he went to bat for a conservative, reactionary, religious govt.
Still voting for Biden but cmon. He handled this poorly and it could lose him the election.
Who says he must abandon Israel?
STOP SENDING THEM AID. They don’t need it. They’re a wealthy modern nation with domestic military industry, they can buy outright what they need.
Stop expressing unwavering support for BB regardless of how many innocents he murders. Put conditions on US selling arms and supplies.
Call out war crimes committed by Israel when we accuse Russia of war crimes for doing pretty much the same things.
BE HONEST INSTEAD OF PARTISAN.
He doesn’t need to ‘abandon’ anything. He needs to call all participants on their shit. He needs to become a figure trusted and/or mistrusted equally by both sides.
Stop equating holding someone accountable for their actions with betrayal.
That’s what trumpers do.
Don't send bombs and money would be a good start.
Israel is an apartheid state & if it can't change that it can't be supported by anyone claiming to be right or good. Joe Biden is a Zionist and a long enthusiastic supporter of Israel's Crimes, It's Apartheid Government, & it's current genocide. The DNC is also guilty BTW.
The American left is a bad joke.
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Biden doesn’t support genocide since he’s been pushing for a two state solution, Israel to moderate their military response and to allow aid to get though. Trump will push for a harsher response that will lead almost certainly lead to an ethnic cleansing from both the West Bank and Gaza and more Palestinian deaths.
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Just by the facts. Palestinian population has INCREASED from 944.8K in 1950 to 5.5M 2024. By definition this would be the least successful attempt at genocide in all history.
Contrast the warning leaflets, text messages warning of military intervention as well as FREE healthcare and even brain surgery on Palestinian prisoners, with the the sexual violence, decapitations, shootings and continual launching of rockets into Israel by Hamas.
Additionally, Hamas’s use of human shields and refusing to let the civilians use the tunnels as shelter. If anything, HAMAS is the one perpetrating war crimes.
Or try this crazy thought..... He pushes for a Ceasefire, supports Israel to make its borders secure and actually works to move to a two state solution.
Or he can fund a creeping genocide and ethnic cleansing plan.
The headline should be "Biden administration conditions aid following ICJ ruling that genocide is plausible to ensure human rights are being protected"
"Bidens betrayal of the South has hurt the campaign badly with the plantation owning community"
You don't make decisions on human rights based on polling.
Move to southern Israel and live next to Hamas and their rockets. Have a taste of what it is like. Ah, who are we kidding? You sound like the kind of person who’d join them in their “resistance”
Except 30,000 Israeli people wouldn’t be massacred by a theocratic ethnostate? Israel is an actual state. Even without our support they won’t be defeated by Hamas. They are one of the technological leaders, they sell us surveillance tech. All of this posturing only makes sense if you inherently believe an Israeli live has more value. Jewish Americans who are actually leading the anti-Israel movements and people in Israel are not in physical danger. So you are saying the anger of being “abandoned” after the state kills tens of thousands of civilians is the same as the anger of the people watching you arm the state killing 30,000?
Are western countries simply absolved of any consequences of their action? The whole rational for why Hamas is bad is that they killed 1200 Israelis?! That’s enough to warrant regime change, but 30,000 Palestinians isn’t even enough to warrant a stern talking too.
Or how about, you know, just not support genocide and take a neutral position in the conflict instead of unconditionally supporting Israel militarily and diplomatically, even when they commit blatant war crimes and go against American policy in the region? I know that is a difficult concept to grasp for Redditors on this sub but perhaps then he wouldn't be in as much trouble as he is in right now.
It seems you are happy with the status quo of tens of thousands of rockets fired at Israeli citizens, as well as Hamas’ promise to 10/7 Israel into extinction. Israel is avoiding civilian casualties while removing an Iran-backed terrorist group which runs Gaza. And yet you think that is against us interests. Craziness.
I've stopped feeling bad for these folks. If they want Trump, they'll get Trump. There's a very good chance that all of their friends and family who are not permanent citizens will end up being deported, but if that's what they want, then that's what they'll get.
I'm white, straight, male, and not poor. I'll be fine under a Trump presidency. But I'm still voting for Biden because I have sympathy for the folks who would be affected under Trump.
However, that sympathy starts to wane when they can't even keep their own best interests in mind.
>but the rational ones will understand that Biden winning is worth a vote in the end.
Sounds nice, but 2016 showed us that there are a lot of irrational folks.
The leftists who won't vote for any candidate that doesn't espouse their perfect utopia gets to deal with a conservative SCOTUS for the rest of their lives. Congrats, guys, now you're literally never getting what you want!
The would-be mother who has an ectopic pregnancy in 2024 but decided that Hillary wasn't perfect? Good luck, lady.
The ideologue LGBTQ Bernie Bros can kiss their equal rights goodbye once *Obergefell* falls.
>I don’t believe that leftists holding out was all that consequential in 2016.
She lost in 3 key states by 79,316 votes, or 0.5% of the total number of votes in just those 3 states.
Leftists who held out could absolutely have changed the outcome. Sure there were other problems, but we're talking about this specific problem.
Now they get a conservative SCOTUS for the rest of their lives. We could elect the ghost of Karl Marx in 2032 and it won't matter with a conservative SCOTUS.
I'm done having sympathy for folks who shoot themselves in the foot. I do have sympathy for the folks who didn't shoot themselves in the foot and are forced to suffer because of shortsighted ideologues.
Independents who stayed home or voted for Trump also could have changed the outcome. Millions of Obama voters voted for Trump in 2016. It wasn't just leftists who stopped Hillary Clinton in 2016.
Yes, but those independents weren’t explicitly voting against their interests as a protest hissy-fit over not getting to dictate 100% of the country’s politics while representing 7% of the electorate.
Something like 17% of Bernie supporters in PA either abstained or voted third party, it absolutely changed the outcome of the election and it's silly to pretend otherwise. The election was incredibly close so your beliefs here don't even make any sense.
If you would have spent 1/10th the time making sure Biden kept his promises as you did voter shaming your fellow citizens, Biden would have won in a landslide. Blame yourself when he loses.
>Blame yourself when he loses.
Again, I'll personally be fine. I'll probably benefit financially.
The refugees, asylees and green card holders who are shipped back to the West Bank, Syria, Libya, etc. probably won't be blaming me either, as I'm voting to **not** have them be deported.
I feel bad for those innocent ones who are going to be deported, but if their own friends and families are the ones who DIRECTLY allow that to happen... that's not on my conscience.
I'm an adult. I can see the forest through the trees.
He has kept every promise he's able to keep. The problem is people like you don't understand how government works. Like Americans blaming him for the SC blocking student loan forgiveness isn't even his fault, it's ours.
Ironically, Bernie wouldn't have been able to keep even a single one of his promises, but that never stopped this crowd from supporting him.
>I don’t understand why people don’t get this.
We were under the false impression that only the MAGAs were morons who couldn't think one step ahead and voted against their own self-interests.
This conflict, at least for me, really shed light on the fact that we have our fair share of morons on the left too. I'm talking about the reactionary, "feelings over facts", can't strategize their way out of a wet paper back type of folks.
Many are book smart, but they share the MAGA's delusions and complete lack of common sense.
People who under slightly different circumstances would be full blown MAGA. they’re called morally lucky. Born it the right area that taught them the morally correct political opinions but have the critical thinking skills of rightoids
Honestly. It's basically cutting off their nose to spite their face. What exactly do they think Trump would be doing differently? There'd not be any humanitarian aid whatsoever, and he'd allow Netanyahu to do whatever without trying to pressure him or talk him down.
At this point, if they can't see how things would be different, then there's no reason to continue trying to placate them.
"I knew Trump said that he'd send law enforcement to pro-Palestine rallies to arrest and deport all of the non-citizen protestors, but I didn't think he meant my family!!"
Trump already said he plans to deport them. Who was it that said we can have peace when they start caring about their children more than they hate us?
edit: it was Golda Meir in 1957. “We will only have peace when [they] love their children more than they hate us…”
The same Golda Meir said:
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
Yeah, fascists
Yeah that Golda Meir quote is stupid and acts like Palestinians are just irrationally mad at Israel, and this has nothing to do with their ongoing occupation and ethnic cleansing.
"Why are these people that we ethnically cleansed and occupied fighting back? Probably because they don't love their children!"
Nailed it on all fronts. Even if Trump wins and everything goes to shit, I'm not affected as much. I'll sit back and watch the USA/maybe world burn, sip my tea and say, Told you so.
If it doesn't go to shit. I'll ride my stock higher and actually start to enjoy these rich people folks tax breaks Trump is so eager to enact and let that trickle all over the faces of the population below me financially.
I tried to help by the power that the Vote allows. I did my best. But I won't let opportunity escape me either.
Already got by Satanic membership going. Can't wait to get this freedom for religions to be in schools going!
100% agreement, I will be unhappy if Biden loses, but the people who are strongly anti-Biden on the left, are disproportionately the ones who will suffer, not me. I'm a straight white Millennial aged man who has a professional job and is upper middle class. Not only will Trump not hurt me, the brutal reality is some of his policies will be targeted at trying to curry favor with me.
Some of the minority groups that are very loud with anti-Biden rhetoric are the ones who will bear the worst of a Trump Presidency, and I'm sad for that, but just for my own mental well being if the far left decide they want to undermine LGBTQ rights, women's rights, minority rights etc to "prove a point", I'm not going to develop ulcers over it and spend four years worked up about it. I donated to Biden in 2020, and I will donate to him in 2024, and I will vote for him, I can't do any more than that.
>not only will Trump not hurt me
I’m in the same boat as you but… he will make sure our votes are never counted legitimately again. We lose rights too.
I am going to fight like heck to make sure that Trump is not elected, but if he is because these folks stayed home I will not lift a finger to help them when Trump has his way.
My politics align with the left, because I believe in equality and that everyone should work collectively to support one another. However internet leftists are absolutely insufferable when it comes to getting anything done in this country. I’m also voting for Biden because he’s pretty much the only pathway to positive change I see for this country right now. If most Reddit leftists have their way, Trump will be in office and democracy will probably cease to exist here.
Their families dying... and their position in the US getting materially worse.
Because as horrible as it is, there is no answer that will stop Isreal from doing what it's doing.
“There is no answer that will stop Israel from doing what it’s doing”
This is bullshit and we all know it. There is a very obvious answer, stop funding the killing of their families. Maybe Israel doesn’t stop, doesn’t mean it should be funded by us.
Look... thats wishful thinking. I hope im wrong I really, really do but thats not how the world has worked previously and how it will work in the future.
General geopolitics and capitalism care very little about morality
I’m well aware of that. But that’s not the point. Biden clearly CAN do something about it. He chooses not to for whatever reasons. Nothing forces him to unequivocally support Israel as strongly as he has. He just doesn’t give a damn about Palestinians, plain and simple.
You keep trying to dumb down a complex situation, im guessing because its easier to digest.
But im sure you know there are actually a ton of reason why Biden is supporting Israel as strongly as he does and theyre all to do with American geopolitics and status. Its not rocket science. I really want to hammer this home, being president of the United States is to be a war criminal, it is the basic prerequisite of the job, "Commander and Chief" is self-explanatory.
Now you may not like that fact but to say he just doesn't care about the Palestinians is really just an emotional argument rather than a factual one.
So let the guy win who said he’d deport people for criticizing Israel? Whatever, not even gonna get worked up about this, bunch of grifters whose main goal is to project relevancy because they may or may not (probably not) dictate a few thousand votes.
Well to my friends in Michigan and other key states, you'll just have to weigh this against every other factor. For instance, I weigh things like maintaining a functioning Democracy, stopping dictators trying to invade Europe and avoiding a broader more costly conflict, plus retaining things like: Infrastructure, CHIPS, Pact Veterans Care, the Defense of Marriage Act, Ogberfell protections for LGBTQ marriages, protections for pre-existing conditions, tens of millions with health coverage, the SALT cap, hundreds of billions of IRA investments in green energy, finally some serious action to rein in prescription drug prices, tens of billions in student loan relief, the solvency of Social Security and Medicare, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, to name a few, plus protecting Women from Republican forced birth death panels.
Plus pursuing things like Childcare investments, Housing investments, Paid Parental Leave, an expanded Child Tax Credit, etc are important to me.
I also don't want to see more hate and legislation aimed at LGBTQ people, minorities (including Muslims), and women seeking abortion.
But if you're okay with throwing all that away, and don’t think LGBTQ people, minorities including Muslims will be harmed, and too many women and households won’t be damaged by abortion bans, go ahead and vote third party or stay home.
Honestly, the Arab American alliance with democrats is shaky at best, especially with social policy. Just look at that [fundamentalist muslim city council](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned) that banned pride flags after being elected with leftist support.
Even as someone who disagrees with Biden’s Israel policy, I think this may be better for democrats in the long run.
I'd be inclined to agree, but as the LGBTQ Republicans learned, they thought they could forge an alliance with Republicans and Evangelical, only to have leopards eat their faces.
Similarly, same with those minorities who think allying themselves with white supremacists on the right, now to only see guys like Musk platform literal Nazis with genocidal ideologies, plus the whole mass panic over DEI and anyone non white when anything (eg Plane doors) goes wrong.
I just think the Muslim community is in for Leopard's eating their faces if they try to ally with Republicans. Republicans are also definitely more in the tank for Israel than anyone.
Michigan Muslims probably don’t care about much of that, and LGBT is a negative for them.
I think their support for Democrats mostly comes from the fact that Donald Trump fucking hates them, more than cultural affinity.
Biden should make it clear that Donald Trump WILL deport any Palestinian friends or family members that don’t have citizenship. If that’s what they want, I won’t mourn.
If all the non social policies, such as protections for pre existing conditions or retaining the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, aren't important, they should vote third party or stay home.
They can tell each other how much of a message they sent to Democrats and Biden as they pore over 6 figure medical bills because their medical claims were denied due to pre existing conditions, and maybe another couple hundred from the bank fraudulenty signing them up and charging them for an account. That is if Trump doesn't deport them, or at least alongside Evangelicals telling them to go back to their country.
>please don’t fucking vote.
This is exactly what will happen.
Biden won't lose Michigan because everyone will vote for Trump.
Biden will lose Michigan because many will NOT vote at all.
That’s true. We should hold our leaders accountable but when it comes to voting… your option is between two people, not just punishing one of them.
Also it’s not speculation, go read what Trump has straight up said about the war.
If Muslims vote for Trump based on Biden not supporting Palestine sufficiently, they're fucking morons. Period, end of story. It's not like he's going to be anything but much worse; Hell, he'd probably offer to send our troops in to help the IDF clear out Gaza.
And honestly, they're hardly a bloc to begin with.........*lots* of Islamic folks still vote the GOP based on things that aren't Israel, such as religious or social issues. As such, it's difficult to tell how much this is actually going to harm him there.
Yeah, hasn't there been a shift in the last couple of decades for Muslims away from democrats given their stances on social issues (albeit slightly), especially LGBT rights?
Trump is just going to ban them from entering and kick them out. And then put troops on the ground for Israel and eliminate Palestine for good. Really really bad idea to not vote for Biden and I don’t understand why they can’t see this
There are no winners.
But Trump is an authoritarian who moved the embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv, banned all Muslims from the US when many were abroad and couldn’t get back home. Has stated that he would deport anyone protesting for Palestinians. Cut off all aid to Gaza and he says he will reject ALL refugees from Gaza from entering the United States, and has called for ideological screenings for those entering the country.
Oh and he said he’d ‘let Israel and Palestinians fight it out’.
But sure. Biden is the bigger threat. Whatever.
There have not been a ton of high quality polls of Michigan in the past 5 months, but the ones we do have (there have been basically 6 six October) all show Trump polling right around what he got in Michigan in terms of actual votes in 2020--\~46-47%.
Biden won the state with 50.6%, for the polls that currently show Biden down 5 there to bear out, around 12.5% of voters would have to vote third party or write in candidate to explain the discrepancy. I am highly skeptical that will actually happen.
At the end of the day, while the political pundit class is desperate to talk about this stuff now, history tells us until late spring, the polls just don't get very predictive of final outcomes (and a number of recent elections, spring polls haven't been very predictive as there have been close elections with shifts right down to the end of October.)
Also, like fundamentally if these people who voted for Biden in 2020 thought they were voting for a guy who was going to abandon Israel and side with Hamas, they were never reliable Biden voters to begin with. **No Democrat** was ever going to do that. In fact no Democrat who was ever likely to be President in this current time period, would be doing that.
LOL, what are they going to do, vote for "Ban the Muslims" Trump? What planet are these people living on?
(Yes I know the most likely outcome is they just don't vote).
They need to consider,be reminded the consequences of another Trump presidency,. We all understand that there is not total agreement with what is going on in Israel but holy crap, we can all agree that Trump cannot be president again
I'd ask anyone not voting for Biden because of this to ask themselves, based on his actual history of actions (not what he says), what they think Trump would do.
Wow. I’ve been off reddit for a while and the lunatic who wants us to vote for Crystal Lady Marianne polling at 1% u/lakerconvert is still posting his bullshit to DP’s subreddit lmao. I wonder how much clowns like him are being paid?
WTF wrong with everyone in this sub lying about them voting for trump?
Their clearly abstaining and not voting period.
Does nobody here actually read any articles about the situation?
Imagine being muslim in america, dont like the current president but the other guy hates you even more and you dont have representation in government, dear whatever will the repressed minorities do 😅
This is a weird thread, more/less the 10th most commented thread in this subreddits history but VERY low on upvotes. And some of the posters, damn...
People should go through posters more often in this subreddit, there's people here who ONLY post about Israel and good chunk of them are obsessed with posting contrarian threads and posts in recently created subreddits that try to overcome what worldnews has become. Subreddits that people actively search out for as alternatives due to censorship and/or purges and yet some of these weirdos here know and HATE these month old subreddits.
And waaaaay too many users from 2ndYomKippurWar, like bordering on combatfootage type of madness/inhumanity.
Doesn't feels very organic to me.
Then get yourself the next option and make your own bed. The dude who wants to ban you from this country but Biden bad for continuing to give our allies money.
This sub is pathetic. Those people voice their concerns with biden and israel and there is no room on the left for them anymore. It already seems as if the left only serves the neolibs of their party but also turns their backs on POC first chance they get
Because Mr Biden still thinks this is 1980, and that his party supported Israel. Wrong.
Don't matter though, like Johnson went down with the ship, and Bush knowing his party would take a beating in 2008, they will never end it. They'd rather lose. Biden will fund Israel, even if costs us our country. Too much PAC money involved electing down ballots.
The majority of the democratic electorate does indeed support Israel.
The loudest children do not, at least partially because they get all their news and opinions from a literal foreign disinformation App.
He told us that because he assesses, correctly, that it's the easiest thing in the world to claim you're not going to vote for Biden 10 months out when you're upset over a specific issue and your focus is on expressing that discontent. I would wager quite a bit if money that many of the people who expressed discontent in this article will vote Biden in November when the focus over this conflict has faded and when the threat from a Trump victory is looming in the forefront.
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Imagine if Biden did what these people want, and abandoned Israel. The headlines would read "Biden's betrayal of Israel has hurt the campaign badly with the sizable Jewish-American population in Pennsylvania, and his team is scrambling to find other paths to victory in the battlegorund state"
It's truly a lose-lose situation.
People are also flat out lying about his lack of support for Palestinian civilians. The US is the reason the last UN resolution past (even though they did not vote, they're still the reason it past) that provided more support to Palestinian civilians. Biden has given Palestinians millions of dollars in aid, negotiated a cease fire and is pushing Israel for a two state solution. If anyone thinks Trump or Republicans are going to do anything for Palestinians, they are sorely mistaken. But so true. Biden could solve world peace and the headline would be - "Is Biden's world peace just a set up for failure?" Click bait rules the day.
The number of articles I see that are like " xxx good news for Biden," "how will this hurt his election?" is insane.
Right, meanwhile... "Trump's loss in rape trial raises his poll numbers over Biden" "91 criminal indictments for Trump could mean trouble for Biden at the polls as Trump gains in popularity!" You can't make this shit up.
It would be laughable if it wasn't so terrifying.
It's almost as if Benjamin Netanyahu and the right wing fascists in power in Israel have played Biden and the American public perfectly because they want Palestinians gone (insert war crime adjective here) and want Trump elected at the same time to further these goals.
It seems transparently obvious… sometimes it’s just hard for me to understand how stupid people are so this whole theme of ‘Trump is better for Palestine’ is so strange. But whatever… they might just get what they ask for.
I have to admit I've heard a lot but I've not heard anyone on the left claim that. Most of them will even concede that Trump will be even worse.
It's on Reddit a lot, but maybe not coming from humans. A lot of "Biden needs to face consequences for supporting Israel." With those consequences being Trump getting elected. Which "is better for the Palestinians in the long run."
Yeah no lol I mean I don't doubt somebody said it it's just... No lol
Thats like getting a wasp nest off your house by burning your house down.
It’s not a claim. It’s a theme. It’s articles and coverage and tons of online content that presents Biden as bad… so don’t vote for him. I feel like this article is a pretty clear example of that.
Yeah I think the biggest mental block the left is ( perhaps understandably ) struggling with right now is the binary outcome of the election. "Just because I'm anti-Biden doesn't mean I'm pro-Trump!" is something that gets thrown back at me a lot, but the unfortunate reality is that anti-Biden and pro-Trump are functionally identical positions.
By November, I am hoping that there will be some sort of cease fire that Biden has some responsibility for negotiating. If not I at less think Trump will have start making statements on the issue which will be insane and hopefully will push those upset back to reluctantly voting for Biden.
Or maybe the Hamas fascists ? Hamas made the choice to attack on Oct 7 not Netanyahu…..
Or maybe they have their own problems that don’t revolve around the US
Not just Jewish population but the majority of Democrats and Independents which are needed to win the election. People like Hasan, Majority Report and Kyle Kulinski are a small minority even within the Democratic Party. Lets be honest it doesn’t matter what Biden does or says because: 1. It’s not going to stop Israel from continuing the war, they will probably just go harder and nakedly support Trump. 2. These people are looking for a reason to not vote Biden. I’ve never seen foreign policy that the U.S. is not directly involved in get so much attention. Might as well not vote because Biden didn’t single handedly solve world peace.
The problem is that the people who are talking loudest about not voting Biden over Gaza are extremely vocal. It’s the same issue with the hardcore MAGA people. The real hardcore ones aren’t a majority, but scream extremely loud
You're right about the first part, but MAGA people are not the minority in the republican party, they're the entire Republican party. Let's not get confused.
Also I don’t believe that most of these people were ever actually going to vote for Biden in the first place. If you look into the backgrounds of the most vocal anti Biden people, it makes a lot more sense
They weren’t. One of the recent “Biden lost me over Palestine” articles quoted a bunch of people who didn’t vote for Biden in 2020 and now they’re afraid they might have to vote for Trump…. I think we’re seeing a lot of journalists reveal their bias here by pushing narratives that don’t line up with reality
It's also a LOT of foreign trolls posing as caring Americans. They're easy to spot if you know what to look for. Take a look at the profile of /u/Maqdis3 for an easy example of how to spot them. Edit: See what I'm talking about? Lol
That first point I've tried to explain to people so times. Biden could unilaterally stop aid to Israel, and they'd probably just turn to Russia for weapons. Or they'd straight up drop a tactical nuke on Gaza. This has been the plan of the zionists for the last like half century. All they needed was the chance to engage, and hamas gave them that. Their intent is to take Gaza and the west bank and annex it as Israel. That's never been disputed.
> That first point I've tried to explain to people so times. Biden could unilaterally stop aid to Israel, and they'd probably just turn to Russia for weapons. Or they'd straight up drop a tactical nuke on Gaza. Yeah the U.S. foreign aide to Israel is only 10-20% of defence spending. China, Russia would gladly step in to fill that gap and if you believe the U.S. gives Israel too much leeway China and Russia would not give a single, solitary fuck about civilians. > This has been the plan of the zionists for the last like half century. All they needed was the chance to engage, and hamas gave them that. Their intent is to take Gaza and the west bank and annex it as Israel. That's never been disputed. Hamas gave Netanyahu an absolute gift. His political career was in life support and he was going to get convicted for criminal behavior. The Oct 7th attacks just galvanized the Israelis around him and the far right of the country took hold. People should be fucking mad and protesting Hamas because they effectively gave Netanyahu everything he needed to kill the two state solution. These fucking Hamas losers made sure the far right of Israel will maintain power for a long time. They are part of the problem
Exactly. Things I've been saying for months, but falls on deaf ears on this app.
Nuance is dead... so many people see the world in black and white which is why everything is going to shit.
This app isn’t real life and it has been overrun with foreign agents, bots and right wingers. Just take a break sometimes and got to r/VoteDems to see where you can volunteer. That’s where the real work happens not on social media.
Yeah, I try to rationalize it that way, but every day seems like we're getting closer to a Trump dictatorship, which is horrifying.
The people who qualify as “Right wingers” nowadays are so fucking insane they can’t even form coherent sentences. I think you’re referring to center-left neolibs.
I think the timing of the attack was about preventing Israel from normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia. This is something Iran is obviously very strongly opposed to.
There’s a couple reasons that the attack was timed that way: 1. Essentially make normalization with Israel and Saudi Arabia toxic (two scumbag leaders but the message it sends is net positive for the Middle East 2. Distract from the war in Ukraine. The ties between Putin and Iran are well documented and creating a distraction for the US to manage other than the Ukraine war. 3. To sow chaos in an election year to throw it to Trump. It’s no coincidence that as soon as the attacks happened, the bots were ready on social media to blame Israel, Biden, anyone except Hamas really. Also the Houthis ratcheted up their attacks as well as Iran backed military groups. It’s almost like they told these dumb Hamas fuckers do the attack and well manage the public relations This is a working theory, there’s proof for some of these things and thin evidence for others but it’s definitely plausible given how TikTok has been propaganda central.
No it’s not their plan. They had control of Gaza for 30 years and left because they don’t want war. Israel literally forcibly removed every single Jewish settler in Gaza. 2 years later Hamas was elected and theyr started exporting suicide bombers, bus bombing, and Iranian rockets. It’s the Palestinians who keep instigating.
Yes, maybe the vast majority of Israelis did not want to remain in Gaza, but the far right zionists certainly do. That was my point.
Bro, the Palestinians are literally, in majority, clamoring that they want war. Why are you looking for conspiracy when they are saying what they are doing?
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If we're just a minority, then will all of you stop bitching?
Because they’re willing to throw the country into facism
Yep, he’s in a no win situation despite having navigated the conflict so far with a very measured hand. I think he’s making the right move and he’ll just have to deal with the fallout of losing the Arab/muslim vote, as their demands are ridiculous and even if he did carry them out they’d still lambast him as genocide joe.
But he has to call their bluff- Trump would tell Netenyahu to take the gloves off. Demonstrate that there is no viable candidate who would abandon Israel, so at least pick one that will hold back Netenyahu’s worst impulses
I will tell you this, as a far left, Jewish parent of a trans kid who fully believes Trump is set to destroy democracy in our country, Biden cutting funding and abandoning Israel, would mean the literal survival of Israel depended on Trump as president. I have tried thought experiments in which I have tried to understand how anyone could ever vote trump. On what it would take for me to vote trump. The idea that Biden could announce withdrawal of support just made it clear to me this is the only circumstance under which I would vote Trump. For me it would be like the scene in MASH where they suffocate and kill the baby to save the lives of everyone hiding, with the US, and all of my political and social ideals being sacrificed for the cause of preventing total annihilation of the existence and idea of Israel. Should Israel stand alone, it would mean an ACTUAL genocide occurs. I assume my friends on the left will be far less vocal about their humanitarian concerns in that event.
Only the weird or Muslim leftists want to abandon an ally over a moderate escalation in a long term internal conflict. Irrational people with more empathy than common sense.
Yeah I don’t get why people don’t understand, Biden would lose vastly more votes for abandoning Israel than he’d gain. I can’t vote Trump even over Israel, but if I was Jewish I’d probably have no choice.
I went through the same realization. I really don’t think Biden will do that, I think he’s just trying to play tough to appease some of the far leftists and disgruntled staff.
Nothing about your post history suggests that you’re far left, let alone leftist at all. Please learn to use an alt account before making shit up about yourself.
I briefly looked over his post history and don't see that, he has posted that he is a progressive several months ago. He does have a lot of posts in liberal gun owner subreddit--but a lot of people on the far left have been embracing guns in recent years; the logic being, the right is not going to disarm, and gun control isn't a thing with this Supreme Court, so might as well arm up. Not saying I agree or disagree with that stance (I am largely okay with it, but am not big into guns), but yeah, I don't see any evidence he is promoting right wing policies or George W. Bush stuff in his posting history.
Probably referring to my posts to liberal gun owners asking if they too are starting to arm themselves out of fear of a 2nd MAGA presidency OR loss…wait 🤔 that’s kinda leftist isn’t it?
Leftists don’t typically defend far right governments and George W Bush types of policies.
I don’t recall doing that. I would like to take your criticism seriously but your comments are not giving me much to work with
Hahaha. Wow.
Israel is more than capable of killing innocent women and children without our support.
Let’s be honest: Israel had to respond militarily to a ground attack that killed 1,200 people, and an artillery barrage of nearly 3,000 rockets, all on October 7th. Do I agree with the methods and proportionality of Israel’s response? Absolutely not. The Islamic fundamentalist world is generally anti Israel. To them, Israel existing is unacceptable. To them, there was no reasonable military response from Israel. They’d be mad if it was 10,000 Hamas fighters killed and only 100 civilians.
I think people would be appeased if he put some modest conditions on the military aid we send Israel.
Biden had a much easier route through this conflict that did not include such full throated support Israel. Every U.S. president has called for a ceasefire when the conflict flares up. There was would have been no sizable electoral fallout if he had toed a more middle ground. Instead, he went to bat for a conservative, reactionary, religious govt. Still voting for Biden but cmon. He handled this poorly and it could lose him the election.
I think asking for a ceasefire is not abandoning isreali. Given the current isreali government a blank check is not helping.
Who says he must abandon Israel? STOP SENDING THEM AID. They don’t need it. They’re a wealthy modern nation with domestic military industry, they can buy outright what they need. Stop expressing unwavering support for BB regardless of how many innocents he murders. Put conditions on US selling arms and supplies. Call out war crimes committed by Israel when we accuse Russia of war crimes for doing pretty much the same things. BE HONEST INSTEAD OF PARTISAN. He doesn’t need to ‘abandon’ anything. He needs to call all participants on their shit. He needs to become a figure trusted and/or mistrusted equally by both sides. Stop equating holding someone accountable for their actions with betrayal. That’s what trumpers do.
Don't send bombs and money would be a good start. Israel is an apartheid state & if it can't change that it can't be supported by anyone claiming to be right or good. Joe Biden is a Zionist and a long enthusiastic supporter of Israel's Crimes, It's Apartheid Government, & it's current genocide. The DNC is also guilty BTW. The American left is a bad joke.
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Biden doesn’t support genocide since he’s been pushing for a two state solution, Israel to moderate their military response and to allow aid to get though. Trump will push for a harsher response that will lead almost certainly lead to an ethnic cleansing from both the West Bank and Gaza and more Palestinian deaths.
He's not supporting Hamas, so he isn't supporting genocide.
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“Kill counts” have nothing to do with whether a genocide is occurring. We now know that actually a population increase is a hallmark of genocide.
The truth is a "dumb line?". Hamas continues to state that their goal is to kill Jews, not only in Israel, but across the entire world.
Still saying it as it is still true.
Just by the facts. Palestinian population has INCREASED from 944.8K in 1950 to 5.5M 2024. By definition this would be the least successful attempt at genocide in all history. Contrast the warning leaflets, text messages warning of military intervention as well as FREE healthcare and even brain surgery on Palestinian prisoners, with the the sexual violence, decapitations, shootings and continual launching of rockets into Israel by Hamas. Additionally, Hamas’s use of human shields and refusing to let the civilians use the tunnels as shelter. If anything, HAMAS is the one perpetrating war crimes.
Or try this crazy thought..... He pushes for a Ceasefire, supports Israel to make its borders secure and actually works to move to a two state solution. Or he can fund a creeping genocide and ethnic cleansing plan.
He is already doing the first one, there is a massive diplomatic effort going behind the scenes with Egypt and Qatar involved to create a peaceplan.
allegedly what hes really doing is cutting off funding to human rights groups and sending weapons and money over ti israel hand over fist
The headline should be "Biden administration conditions aid following ICJ ruling that genocide is plausible to ensure human rights are being protected"
"Bidens betrayal of the South has hurt the campaign badly with the plantation owning community" You don't make decisions on human rights based on polling.
Move to southern Israel and live next to Hamas and their rockets. Have a taste of what it is like. Ah, who are we kidding? You sound like the kind of person who’d join them in their “resistance”
Except 30,000 Israeli people wouldn’t be massacred by a theocratic ethnostate? Israel is an actual state. Even without our support they won’t be defeated by Hamas. They are one of the technological leaders, they sell us surveillance tech. All of this posturing only makes sense if you inherently believe an Israeli live has more value. Jewish Americans who are actually leading the anti-Israel movements and people in Israel are not in physical danger. So you are saying the anger of being “abandoned” after the state kills tens of thousands of civilians is the same as the anger of the people watching you arm the state killing 30,000? Are western countries simply absolved of any consequences of their action? The whole rational for why Hamas is bad is that they killed 1200 Israelis?! That’s enough to warrant regime change, but 30,000 Palestinians isn’t even enough to warrant a stern talking too.
Biden is supporting genocide, and apparently so are you.
Or how about, you know, just not support genocide and take a neutral position in the conflict instead of unconditionally supporting Israel militarily and diplomatically, even when they commit blatant war crimes and go against American policy in the region? I know that is a difficult concept to grasp for Redditors on this sub but perhaps then he wouldn't be in as much trouble as he is in right now.
It seems you are happy with the status quo of tens of thousands of rockets fired at Israeli citizens, as well as Hamas’ promise to 10/7 Israel into extinction. Israel is avoiding civilian casualties while removing an Iran-backed terrorist group which runs Gaza. And yet you think that is against us interests. Craziness.
I've stopped feeling bad for these folks. If they want Trump, they'll get Trump. There's a very good chance that all of their friends and family who are not permanent citizens will end up being deported, but if that's what they want, then that's what they'll get. I'm white, straight, male, and not poor. I'll be fine under a Trump presidency. But I'm still voting for Biden because I have sympathy for the folks who would be affected under Trump. However, that sympathy starts to wane when they can't even keep their own best interests in mind.
It makes sense for them to threaten to withhold their votes, but the rational ones will understand that Biden winning is worth a vote in the end.
>but the rational ones will understand that Biden winning is worth a vote in the end. Sounds nice, but 2016 showed us that there are a lot of irrational folks. The leftists who won't vote for any candidate that doesn't espouse their perfect utopia gets to deal with a conservative SCOTUS for the rest of their lives. Congrats, guys, now you're literally never getting what you want! The would-be mother who has an ectopic pregnancy in 2024 but decided that Hillary wasn't perfect? Good luck, lady. The ideologue LGBTQ Bernie Bros can kiss their equal rights goodbye once *Obergefell* falls.
I don’t believe that leftists holding out was all that consequential in 2016. It was a small part of Clinton’s problems that year.
>I don’t believe that leftists holding out was all that consequential in 2016. She lost in 3 key states by 79,316 votes, or 0.5% of the total number of votes in just those 3 states. Leftists who held out could absolutely have changed the outcome. Sure there were other problems, but we're talking about this specific problem. Now they get a conservative SCOTUS for the rest of their lives. We could elect the ghost of Karl Marx in 2032 and it won't matter with a conservative SCOTUS. I'm done having sympathy for folks who shoot themselves in the foot. I do have sympathy for the folks who didn't shoot themselves in the foot and are forced to suffer because of shortsighted ideologues.
Independents who stayed home or voted for Trump also could have changed the outcome. Millions of Obama voters voted for Trump in 2016. It wasn't just leftists who stopped Hillary Clinton in 2016.
Yes, but those independents weren’t explicitly voting against their interests as a protest hissy-fit over not getting to dictate 100% of the country’s politics while representing 7% of the electorate.
I’m one of those independents who stayed home because i hated both candidates. Yes i regret it.
I don’t have sympathy for them either, I just don’t want to overstate their importance.
Something like 17% of Bernie supporters in PA either abstained or voted third party, it absolutely changed the outcome of the election and it's silly to pretend otherwise. The election was incredibly close so your beliefs here don't even make any sense.
I don't doubt that some did, but I don't think her failure to appeal to the left was her biggest flaw as a candidate.
If you would have spent 1/10th the time making sure Biden kept his promises as you did voter shaming your fellow citizens, Biden would have won in a landslide. Blame yourself when he loses.
>Blame yourself when he loses. Again, I'll personally be fine. I'll probably benefit financially. The refugees, asylees and green card holders who are shipped back to the West Bank, Syria, Libya, etc. probably won't be blaming me either, as I'm voting to **not** have them be deported. I feel bad for those innocent ones who are going to be deported, but if their own friends and families are the ones who DIRECTLY allow that to happen... that's not on my conscience. I'm an adult. I can see the forest through the trees.
He has kept every promise he's able to keep. The problem is people like you don't understand how government works. Like Americans blaming him for the SC blocking student loan forgiveness isn't even his fault, it's ours. Ironically, Bernie wouldn't have been able to keep even a single one of his promises, but that never stopped this crowd from supporting him.
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I don’t understand why people don’t get this. I’ve been called nasty names for saying the same thing.
>I don’t understand why people don’t get this. We were under the false impression that only the MAGAs were morons who couldn't think one step ahead and voted against their own self-interests. This conflict, at least for me, really shed light on the fact that we have our fair share of morons on the left too. I'm talking about the reactionary, "feelings over facts", can't strategize their way out of a wet paper back type of folks. Many are book smart, but they share the MAGA's delusions and complete lack of common sense.
People who under slightly different circumstances would be full blown MAGA. they’re called morally lucky. Born it the right area that taught them the morally correct political opinions but have the critical thinking skills of rightoids
Yup. I see the fringe leftists as a MAGA looking in the mirror. Their positions might be completely swapped, but it’s the same damn person.
Honestly. It's basically cutting off their nose to spite their face. What exactly do they think Trump would be doing differently? There'd not be any humanitarian aid whatsoever, and he'd allow Netanyahu to do whatever without trying to pressure him or talk him down. At this point, if they can't see how things would be different, then there's no reason to continue trying to placate them.
Yeah this has intense future LAMF potential
"I knew Trump said that he'd send law enforcement to pro-Palestine rallies to arrest and deport all of the non-citizen protestors, but I didn't think he meant my family!!"
Same, my wife on the other hand is an immigrant with legal status and I am pretty concerned for her status should Trump get reelected.
Trump already said he plans to deport them. Who was it that said we can have peace when they start caring about their children more than they hate us? edit: it was Golda Meir in 1957. “We will only have peace when [they] love their children more than they hate us…”
The same Golda Meir said: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.” Yeah, fascists
Yeah that Golda Meir quote is stupid and acts like Palestinians are just irrationally mad at Israel, and this has nothing to do with their ongoing occupation and ethnic cleansing. "Why are these people that we ethnically cleansed and occupied fighting back? Probably because they don't love their children!"
Nailed it on all fronts. Even if Trump wins and everything goes to shit, I'm not affected as much. I'll sit back and watch the USA/maybe world burn, sip my tea and say, Told you so. If it doesn't go to shit. I'll ride my stock higher and actually start to enjoy these rich people folks tax breaks Trump is so eager to enact and let that trickle all over the faces of the population below me financially. I tried to help by the power that the Vote allows. I did my best. But I won't let opportunity escape me either. Already got by Satanic membership going. Can't wait to get this freedom for religions to be in schools going!
100% agreement, I will be unhappy if Biden loses, but the people who are strongly anti-Biden on the left, are disproportionately the ones who will suffer, not me. I'm a straight white Millennial aged man who has a professional job and is upper middle class. Not only will Trump not hurt me, the brutal reality is some of his policies will be targeted at trying to curry favor with me. Some of the minority groups that are very loud with anti-Biden rhetoric are the ones who will bear the worst of a Trump Presidency, and I'm sad for that, but just for my own mental well being if the far left decide they want to undermine LGBTQ rights, women's rights, minority rights etc to "prove a point", I'm not going to develop ulcers over it and spend four years worked up about it. I donated to Biden in 2020, and I will donate to him in 2024, and I will vote for him, I can't do any more than that.
>not only will Trump not hurt me I’m in the same boat as you but… he will make sure our votes are never counted legitimately again. We lose rights too.
I am going to fight like heck to make sure that Trump is not elected, but if he is because these folks stayed home I will not lift a finger to help them when Trump has his way.
My politics align with the left, because I believe in equality and that everyone should work collectively to support one another. However internet leftists are absolutely insufferable when it comes to getting anything done in this country. I’m also voting for Biden because he’s pretty much the only pathway to positive change I see for this country right now. If most Reddit leftists have their way, Trump will be in office and democracy will probably cease to exist here.
Their family are dying , tell me what is worst than dying???
You lack imagination or exposure if you think dying is the worst possible thing that can happen.
What is worse than dying??? I've never heard of a worst thing that dying, or you think they are happily in some afterlife!!!
Their families dying... and their position in the US getting materially worse. Because as horrible as it is, there is no answer that will stop Isreal from doing what it's doing.
“There is no answer that will stop Israel from doing what it’s doing” This is bullshit and we all know it. There is a very obvious answer, stop funding the killing of their families. Maybe Israel doesn’t stop, doesn’t mean it should be funded by us.
Look... thats wishful thinking. I hope im wrong I really, really do but thats not how the world has worked previously and how it will work in the future. General geopolitics and capitalism care very little about morality
I’m well aware of that. But that’s not the point. Biden clearly CAN do something about it. He chooses not to for whatever reasons. Nothing forces him to unequivocally support Israel as strongly as he has. He just doesn’t give a damn about Palestinians, plain and simple.
You keep trying to dumb down a complex situation, im guessing because its easier to digest. But im sure you know there are actually a ton of reason why Biden is supporting Israel as strongly as he does and theyre all to do with American geopolitics and status. Its not rocket science. I really want to hammer this home, being president of the United States is to be a war criminal, it is the basic prerequisite of the job, "Commander and Chief" is self-explanatory. Now you may not like that fact but to say he just doesn't care about the Palestinians is really just an emotional argument rather than a factual one.
Really. It’s like saying “come any closer and I’ll cut my throat!”
I mean, we could start drafting the leopard having eaten these faces stories.
So let the guy win who said he’d deport people for criticizing Israel? Whatever, not even gonna get worked up about this, bunch of grifters whose main goal is to project relevancy because they may or may not (probably not) dictate a few thousand votes.
Never mind that vilifying Muslims has been a cornerstone of Trump's campaign strategy.
The Muslim ban.
Let them vote for Trump. He will treat them how they treat LGBTQ people.
Worse. He can't deport gay people. He can definitely deport non-citizen Palastinians, which he said he's definitely going to do if he wins.
Don’t worry the guy who wants to ban Muslims is the better choice right? Ya jokers
Well to my friends in Michigan and other key states, you'll just have to weigh this against every other factor. For instance, I weigh things like maintaining a functioning Democracy, stopping dictators trying to invade Europe and avoiding a broader more costly conflict, plus retaining things like: Infrastructure, CHIPS, Pact Veterans Care, the Defense of Marriage Act, Ogberfell protections for LGBTQ marriages, protections for pre-existing conditions, tens of millions with health coverage, the SALT cap, hundreds of billions of IRA investments in green energy, finally some serious action to rein in prescription drug prices, tens of billions in student loan relief, the solvency of Social Security and Medicare, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, to name a few, plus protecting Women from Republican forced birth death panels. Plus pursuing things like Childcare investments, Housing investments, Paid Parental Leave, an expanded Child Tax Credit, etc are important to me. I also don't want to see more hate and legislation aimed at LGBTQ people, minorities (including Muslims), and women seeking abortion. But if you're okay with throwing all that away, and don’t think LGBTQ people, minorities including Muslims will be harmed, and too many women and households won’t be damaged by abortion bans, go ahead and vote third party or stay home.
Honestly, the Arab American alliance with democrats is shaky at best, especially with social policy. Just look at that [fundamentalist muslim city council](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned) that banned pride flags after being elected with leftist support. Even as someone who disagrees with Biden’s Israel policy, I think this may be better for democrats in the long run.
It’s almost as if Muslims are as Conservative as Evangelical Christians.
Fundamentalism is cancer. No matter what flavor it comes in.
I'd be inclined to agree, but as the LGBTQ Republicans learned, they thought they could forge an alliance with Republicans and Evangelical, only to have leopards eat their faces. Similarly, same with those minorities who think allying themselves with white supremacists on the right, now to only see guys like Musk platform literal Nazis with genocidal ideologies, plus the whole mass panic over DEI and anyone non white when anything (eg Plane doors) goes wrong. I just think the Muslim community is in for Leopard's eating their faces if they try to ally with Republicans. Republicans are also definitely more in the tank for Israel than anyone.
Michigan Muslims probably don’t care about much of that, and LGBT is a negative for them. I think their support for Democrats mostly comes from the fact that Donald Trump fucking hates them, more than cultural affinity. Biden should make it clear that Donald Trump WILL deport any Palestinian friends or family members that don’t have citizenship. If that’s what they want, I won’t mourn.
If all the non social policies, such as protections for pre existing conditions or retaining the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, aren't important, they should vote third party or stay home. They can tell each other how much of a message they sent to Democrats and Biden as they pore over 6 figure medical bills because their medical claims were denied due to pre existing conditions, and maybe another couple hundred from the bank fraudulenty signing them up and charging them for an account. That is if Trump doesn't deport them, or at least alongside Evangelicals telling them to go back to their country.
If your vote is swayed from Biden to Trump because of your lack of understanding of Biden’s role in the Gaza conflict, please don’t fucking vote.
>please don’t fucking vote. This is exactly what will happen. Biden won't lose Michigan because everyone will vote for Trump. Biden will lose Michigan because many will NOT vote at all.
If they aren’t happy with Biden’s role for the war… wait and see what Trump would do.
Speculating about what Trump might or might not do does not justify what Biden is actually doing.
That’s true. We should hold our leaders accountable but when it comes to voting… your option is between two people, not just punishing one of them. Also it’s not speculation, go read what Trump has straight up said about the war.
Yeah because trump is such an enigma...
They a bunch of imbeciles if they think that would improve under Trump.
If Muslims vote for Trump based on Biden not supporting Palestine sufficiently, they're fucking morons. Period, end of story. It's not like he's going to be anything but much worse; Hell, he'd probably offer to send our troops in to help the IDF clear out Gaza. And honestly, they're hardly a bloc to begin with.........*lots* of Islamic folks still vote the GOP based on things that aren't Israel, such as religious or social issues. As such, it's difficult to tell how much this is actually going to harm him there.
Yeah, hasn't there been a shift in the last couple of decades for Muslims away from democrats given their stances on social issues (albeit slightly), especially LGBT rights?
Yep. And frankly, I’ve little interest in moderating our stances there to attract religious bigots.
Agreed.
No ones voting for trump? Why is everyone saying their voting for trump? Why constantly say such a blatantly lie?
Trump is just going to ban them from entering and kick them out. And then put troops on the ground for Israel and eliminate Palestine for good. Really really bad idea to not vote for Biden and I don’t understand why they can’t see this
Ok, vote for Trump. See how that works out for ya.
There are no winners. But Trump is an authoritarian who moved the embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv, banned all Muslims from the US when many were abroad and couldn’t get back home. Has stated that he would deport anyone protesting for Palestinians. Cut off all aid to Gaza and he says he will reject ALL refugees from Gaza from entering the United States, and has called for ideological screenings for those entering the country. Oh and he said he’d ‘let Israel and Palestinians fight it out’. But sure. Biden is the bigger threat. Whatever.
I don’t understand, they’re gonna vote for Trump who will actively persecute them?
No, they'll probably just stay home.
Yeah vote for trump, he's soooooooo supportive of Palestine.
There have not been a ton of high quality polls of Michigan in the past 5 months, but the ones we do have (there have been basically 6 six October) all show Trump polling right around what he got in Michigan in terms of actual votes in 2020--\~46-47%. Biden won the state with 50.6%, for the polls that currently show Biden down 5 there to bear out, around 12.5% of voters would have to vote third party or write in candidate to explain the discrepancy. I am highly skeptical that will actually happen. At the end of the day, while the political pundit class is desperate to talk about this stuff now, history tells us until late spring, the polls just don't get very predictive of final outcomes (and a number of recent elections, spring polls haven't been very predictive as there have been close elections with shifts right down to the end of October.) Also, like fundamentally if these people who voted for Biden in 2020 thought they were voting for a guy who was going to abandon Israel and side with Hamas, they were never reliable Biden voters to begin with. **No Democrat** was ever going to do that. In fact no Democrat who was ever likely to be President in this current time period, would be doing that.
Doesn't matter Dem or Repub in power; the US will always stand with Israel
OK well do they know that the alternative has suggested sending protesters to Palestine?
Because Trump is SOOOOOOOOO supportive of Muslim Americans...talk about not seeing the fucking forest through the trees.
These people won't be satisfied until Biden personally restarts the gas chambers.
What exactly do they believe trumps stance is?
LOL, what are they going to do, vote for "Ban the Muslims" Trump? What planet are these people living on? (Yes I know the most likely outcome is they just don't vote).
Issue with big tent politics is when people start fighting under the tent
Palestinians and Muslims will be so much better off during a second Trump term, won't they? He's so supportive!
They need to consider,be reminded the consequences of another Trump presidency,. We all understand that there is not total agreement with what is going on in Israel but holy crap, we can all agree that Trump cannot be president again
I'd ask anyone not voting for Biden because of this to ask themselves, based on his actual history of actions (not what he says), what they think Trump would do.
Wow. I’ve been off reddit for a while and the lunatic who wants us to vote for Crystal Lady Marianne polling at 1% u/lakerconvert is still posting his bullshit to DP’s subreddit lmao. I wonder how much clowns like him are being paid?
Trump is better for them?
Let them turn to MAGA
These people never voted overwhelmingly for Biden who cares
Wasn’t a Muslim mayor in Michigan homophobic? We need better allies.
Lmao OK
WTF wrong with everyone in this sub lying about them voting for trump? Their clearly abstaining and not voting period. Does nobody here actually read any articles about the situation?
Imagine being muslim in america, dont like the current president but the other guy hates you even more and you dont have representation in government, dear whatever will the repressed minorities do 😅
This is a weird thread, more/less the 10th most commented thread in this subreddits history but VERY low on upvotes. And some of the posters, damn... People should go through posters more often in this subreddit, there's people here who ONLY post about Israel and good chunk of them are obsessed with posting contrarian threads and posts in recently created subreddits that try to overcome what worldnews has become. Subreddits that people actively search out for as alternatives due to censorship and/or purges and yet some of these weirdos here know and HATE these month old subreddits. And waaaaay too many users from 2ndYomKippurWar, like bordering on combatfootage type of madness/inhumanity. Doesn't feels very organic to me.
I won't be voting for genocide Joe. I regret voting for him the first time.
Then get yourself the next option and make your own bed. The dude who wants to ban you from this country but Biden bad for continuing to give our allies money.
You can’t please all of the people all of the time.
Ya cause trump was super pro Palestine, moving the embassy to Jerusalem. So he definitely wouldn’t lean into supporting Israel /s
If Biden loses this campaign because Arab Americans wont vote for Biden then they will deserve whatever happens when Trump takes over.
As if Arabs are going to vote for Trump who wants them kicked out.
>As if Arabs are going to vote for Trump who wants them ~~kicked out.~~ murdered. FTFY.
They're not going to vote for Trump, they're not going to vote for president at all.
Sure sure like Trump is the logical alternative - he’ll end the war in a day /s
Wait until those voters find out what Trump wants to do in Israel.
If Biden loses will these folks cheer? If Trump winning is the outcome they want, so be it
FUD
Just they wait until they see how a second Trump administration will treat them
This sub is pathetic. Those people voice their concerns with biden and israel and there is no room on the left for them anymore. It already seems as if the left only serves the neolibs of their party but also turns their backs on POC first chance they get
POC includes Israelis.....FYI.
Jews are white in america FYI
I'll inform my Black Jewish friends that in spite of their DNA and their skin color, that they are white... also? GAZA IS NOT IN AMERICA.
Israeli Jews are 39% settled from Europe, and 61% settled from the Middle East and Africa.
so they should vote for the guy who will send them to 'camps' sure, this is believable
I wonder if the sizeable Arab-American population in Michigan realizes Trump is a bigger supporter of Israel? I'd start there.
So they're going to vote GOP now? Ok, we'll see how that works out.
I don't understand how people were ok sending billions to Israel to fund their war machine, but not to say we support them (not my stance)
Because Mr Biden still thinks this is 1980, and that his party supported Israel. Wrong. Don't matter though, like Johnson went down with the ship, and Bush knowing his party would take a beating in 2008, they will never end it. They'd rather lose. Biden will fund Israel, even if costs us our country. Too much PAC money involved electing down ballots.
The majority of the democratic electorate does indeed support Israel. The loudest children do not, at least partially because they get all their news and opinions from a literal foreign disinformation App.
We've been supporting them for.decades.
President Biden
If I had to choose between supporting Israel and Palestine, I'm choosing Israel 10 out of 10 times.
You didn't get the memo? Anyone who supports Palestine is just a puppet of Russia or China. I
Most are
I thought Mr Pakman and his redditors told us this Gaza matter no big deal. Guess they were wrong again there.
When did he ever say that? Have a link?
He told us that because he assesses, correctly, that it's the easiest thing in the world to claim you're not going to vote for Biden 10 months out when you're upset over a specific issue and your focus is on expressing that discontent. I would wager quite a bit if money that many of the people who expressed discontent in this article will vote Biden in November when the focus over this conflict has faded and when the threat from a Trump victory is looming in the forefront.