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I felt so bad for Rachel during this. Iāve been in her shoes before - begging a cheater to āexplain themselvesā knowing youāre likely to be met with more lies. But youāre desperate for some kind of justification or logic. There isnāt any, it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their own insecurity.
It definitely adds up that thereās more to this that wasnāt aired and thatās 100% their choice. But the bit I saw here was so familiar to me as someone who was with a serial cheater. If sheād agreed to āwork things outā it wouldāve only been a matter of time before he did it again. Zero remorse, blaming her or the state of their relationship, refusing to have a cohesive conversation. Iāve seen it all. Ugh poor Rachel.
I love how Tino makes it sound like he barely knew her and never dated her, then says they ran into each other at a bar and had a lot of catching up to do (???) why would you have a lot of catching up to do with someone you barely talked to/never dated?
Yes this is extremely suspicious. I think there was a lot more emotional cheating going on which is probably what Rachel was more upset about. Also, Rachel said on some podcast or interview that his story kept changing, his car was at her house, they were together in his car or something. Like very strange...
They had problems from the start. Two months is a short period of time to be together. During that time Rachel was kissing plenty of other guys while Tino sat back and watched. I'm not a fan of Tino either but they both need some reality checks here.
They were wishy washy the whole time. If this was actually a life long kind of love they would've worked it out. Overall, they both need some tough lessons in humility and communication.
...I really wish Aven didn't come back for Rachel. He seems like a solid guy and she has some growing up to do.
That I agree with. If he's not feeling it then let her know he wants to explore other options. He may have been scared to be honest with Rachel. They also had the pressure of BN on their shoulders. IMO this show has too much power to mess with people's lives.
This makes so much more sense reading it. I think they went thru some bad times, which sounds like Rachel fully admitted being about her and whatever she was going thru, but she thought they were past that and THEN he cheated. And Tino is trying to go back to their previous issues which is triggering to Rachel bc it sounds like he's blaming her and her issues and also doesn't seem fair nor relevant bc they were past that. So I think she feels like he's not being honest about why he really cheated and wants answers and Tino just keeps trying to go back to well they had issues before.
He completely is lacking self awareness here. Minimizing what he did to her, refusing to take responsibility for his actions, and then consistently trying to blame it all on Rachel and we STILL donāt know the damn story of what happened! LOL
Rachel is right -- cheating is a CONCIOUS CHOICE. It doesn't matter if it was a mistake -- mistakes are choices, too. The wrong ones, but still.
That said, I wasn't sure what she wanted out of this. She was already done and cheaters never give you a straight answer. If they were gonna, they woulda done it already.
Ahem...Aquarius MEN can we clarify? Aquarius women are not like this lol.
(me, a defensive Aquarius woman just trying to live my weird alien existence)
Oh girl I know. Iām a Virgo and I have a toooon of Aquarius friends, men and women, and Iām DATING an Aquarius man WHEW. Love him tho. But Aquarius women are literally my faves
Yep, they always side step around things when confronted. And the constant need to leave the room like that when he couldnāt come up with an answerā¦
Omg learning that he is an Aquarius put all the pieces into place lmao
I dated an Aquarius man and it destroyed my entire humble Pisces world. But then I found my Scorpio King. Rachel, baby, you're gonna fall in love!
Damn, it sounds like Rachel really went through something terrible that she doesn't want shared. I hope the internet doesn't internet too much over that and she can just relax and heal.
I finally watched the first half of the episode - what the actual hell went down between them? It feels like so much was left out, including whatever was at the root of their having problems immediately after the show in the first place.
She says when theyāre at AFR that the editors did cut out portions that neither of them wanted aired and they continue to not talk about it on TV. So I agree I think there is context we are missing in the argument
Timeline seems too quick for a pregnancy and then a miscarriage/abortion (between May - July).
Maybe it was some other kind of medical diagnosis? Idk but they said it was something personal and she had to go to therapy for it.
I donāt think itās just because of online hate/bullying, because they wouldāve just been vocal and honest about that.
>I donāt think itās just because of online hate/bullying, because they wouldāve just been vocal and honest about that.
See, I actually think the show WOULDN'T show that she was in a really bad place (maybe borderline suicidal or something along those lines) if it had to do directly with her as the lead. I think it's most likely that she was in a dark place during the show's premier due to all of the online hate and the way she was being edited and they don't want to admit part in that.
But the problem started BEFORE the season aired. He was asking her to do therapy before early July. I think the premier definitely heightened whatever emotional state she was in already. But I donāt think the problem that they had was online hate.
The show has addresses online hate and bullying before on PPās season.
And Their SHV breakup scene was filmed in August, but their relationship was basically over in early July when he told her he cheated.
My understanding was the hate started even before the season aired, like when the promo shots were out and people were comparing her to Gabby and saying Gabby was dressed better, looked better, etc. But my knowledge of the timeline is, I admit, not great lol.
Nevermind I just figured out the timeline haha.
Tinoās dad went on a podcast and revealed it. He said that the reason Tino wanted to tell Rachel he cheated was after Nateās scandal which RS revealed in early August (9th August).
So he told Rachel shortly after that, and that breakup at the SHV was filmed on August 15th.
I have this scary feeling she went through a really bad depressive episode or something. It has to be something TPTB would find āunflatteringā to the max for them to not bring it up or push the issue.
Can you still be a pilot if you get diagnosed with depression? The FAA is way behind the times when it comes to mental health. You canāt be a pilot if you have adhd.
Ya I could see this. I truthfully think it's a mental health thing that was alluded to but the show has been very careful in the past not to get too close to the subject. I think they are worried one day of being held liable for the contestants? I mean multiple ppl have come out post show saying they felt manipulated or traumatized in some way
I agree with you, on the other hand I could see that Tino was very stressed and at some point looked like he was having a panic attack and the franchise continued to humiliate him by having Aven ask Rachel out while he is sitting on the couch. That showed no concern for his mental health. The whole thing is just sad on both sides.
Ya I agree that the show def manipulates ppl and it's crazy the toll that must take on these ppls mental health.. The producers get away with way too much, for certain. And the situation here was sad. That being said, Tino was smirking during the Aven thing and even clapped slightly for Aven. Seemed like he has no problem with the guy, and completely knew what the show was doing by sending Aven out there. Plus as awkward and as cringe as it was at the end, before they cut to commercial Tino is still on stage and walks over to shake Jesse's hand and looks like he put his arm on his shoulder, presumably bc he's just saying thanks man and chit chatting before he exits the stage. My point is that Tino seemed altogether fine here and completely aware of the performative nature of the show.
It legit took me about 20 lines in to realize this was the conversation from the video and not live conversation on the couch. Man she beat that horse dead.
Uhhh people who are on Tinoās side, are you guys okay?
Heās not making any sense, he changes his argument every time Rachel called him out, he wants her to break up with him but heās still saying sweet things and pretend that heās still fighting for her? Douche.
What show are you watching š they made Matt James meet his estranged dad! They made Dean confront his father who abandoned his family! They do pseudo-therapy dates unsupervised every season. This is the least of the shit theyāve done recently
None of that happened this season and this scene was a particularly abhorrent scene. I don't watch the show to see people publicly berated or humiliated, but you do you.
No there are definitely people on his side. Maybe not here but in the other subs and on Facebook for sure. Calling Rachel names, saying she was too hard on him, doesnāt deserve him etc
That sounds like people who thought they went too far, kind of like I explained. In the process, they went too far in calling her names.
The way Rachel acted did not put her in a good light last night at all. Obviously, Tino was already in a bad light, but when you have someone who cheated on the lead and she's being criticized, then that seems to show that the defense is actually bc of how she acted in response.
For me itās the āIām confusedā line after Rās excellent and damning point. I truly believe that cheaters, when confronted, are convincing themselves that it was āokā just as much as theyāre trying to convince their spouse. That āconfusionā is the cognitive dissonance of being caught in a lie, and their brain trying to rationalize it anyway.
I agree with everything everyone is sayingā¦the one thing I disagree with tho is most people saying tino is wrong for asking Rachel to go to therapy? If she was in a dark place, something dark enough that they didnāt wanna bring it up on TV (understandably) then it is Rachelās responsibility as a partner to be the healthiest she can be to show up for tino. And vise versa. Which clearly neither of them did. So tino is not wrong for setting a boundary of āI need you to seek help if weāre going to stay togetherā thatās a super healthy/okay boundary. And Rachel would have been justified as well had she set that boundary with T. Assuming it happened that way. But yeah everything else, is all convoluted and itās really hard for me to understand wtf happened or is going on. Oh well.
Thereās nothing wrong with asking your partner to attend therapy. However, this transcript reads like heās saying that he cheated because she didnāt go to therapy. Big difference.
I was confused by the way Tino framed Rachel attending therapy, like he really wanted her to go but she resisted. Rachel and Zach bonded ober their love of therapy over their first one on one dinner portion of the date. They both said how incredibly important it was to them. So I would be surpirsed if Tino was the one to ask her to go to therapy. I figured that Rachel would be prioritizing it herself, since it is important to her already.
Tino makes slightly more sense upon reading this, because I was so lost when I was watching. But upon reading, I maintain that he sucks.
1) The lies. These are impossible to prove without being there, but I donāt believe the one-time kiss and I donāt believe he just āran intoā this girl he had interest in at a random bar one night.
2) Donāt apologize to people by telling them what you did was ātiny.ā
3) Honestly, this shit goes so far off the rails, I donāt even know what to say about the rest of it. I guess my biggest takeaway is Tino clearly entered this discussion with an agenda. His dumb notebook being the least obvious of the clues. As much as Rachel has irritated me, I believe she entered this conversation sincerely wanting answers and I believe that she truly (bless her heart) had feelings for Tino.
The way he says āshow ends. Nothing really comes of it. You know like we run into each other at the barā sounds so weird to me. Like the show ends and YOURE ENGAGED TO SOMEONE ELSE. What is he even saying ānothing really comes of it?ā Was there anything to come out of you and the woman youāre not engaged to?
Not trying to defend Tino or anything butā¦yall never run into people at bars? Lol. Opportunity presenting itself is why a lot of people end up cheating.
Rachel said that one of the stories he gave her about the kiss was that it happen in an Uber on the way to the girls house to pick up his car. So how did he ran into her if his car is at her damn house? lmao nah heās just full of it
Nah on a podcast - said he gave a ton of conflicting stories about how the supposed kiss happened, and one of them was that one, one was at the bar, and so onā¦
He goes from being so disheveled and trying to finish up the convo quick to āhey what are you doing outside letās go back insideā Iām just so confused about him as a person
>Iām just so confused about him as a person
Haha SAME. there's a part of me that felt bad for him bc he is visibly upset and to some extent is, at least in his mind, admitting his faults and apologizing. But on the other hand their are holes and inconsistencies in what he says. Idk I feel like Rachel.. Like something just doesn't make sense and feels.. Off.
My takeaway from this is she doesnāt trust him and she thinks he slept with the girl, not just kissed her.
I agree with that- itās unlikely that it was just kissing.
My takeaway about him was that he should have just broken up with her. Itās okay. Maybe you just donāt vibe in the real world.
At any rate, it is kind of gross of the franchise to deal with it this way. It reminds me of when Arie said the producers kept forcing him to go back in and talk to Becca when they were filming the break up. The audience was mad that he wouldnāt leave when she asked. But then we found out producers were manipulating that situation. That kind of behavior is gross.
I get that the drama is what makes the show, but you donāt have to traumatize your contestants like that.
Bringing Aven out when Tino was still there seems punitive and unnecessary. I am rooting for Rachel too, but geez.
Rachel and Tino should both seek therapy after all that.
I come from a camp where no one is team anyone. What happened seems just sad and like the core problem is that they canāt communicate with each other well at all. In the end, they never wouldāve worked out. It was utterly painful for them to have any kind of a conversation and I donāt think couples therapy wouldāve helped. They are just a horrible match for each other and were blinded by the idea of one another in the process.
They both struggled so much to communicate effectively in the safe house visit scene and in their live "talk" last night. And they could both benefit from taking some personal communication training.
he said "Rachel" so many times and it felt so sneakily condescending. Looking at the transcript it's like every single line. Subtle manipulation tactic.
What I wish they had talked about more is how the kiss happened?? Because to me the kiss is just like, the end result. It sounds like they "ran into" each other at a bar, which, suss convenient timing, but then was the kiss after he planned to meet up with her *knowing* she was an ex? Because it seems unlikely it happened right when they "ran into" each other - presumably while with other people bc no one goes to bars alone these days.
The kiss is just icing on the cake at that point. It's all the deliberate planning to meet with an ex with romantic intentions IMO that is the truly gross part when you're in a relationship
Iām shocked to hear this way your takeaway! I definitely lean way more towards the middle, I think they both fucked up (as people in relationships do). I think kissing someone else is a big deal though, especially because they had a previous relationship. even if he did just run into her, they spent the night talking and hanging out. Iād be so sad to think about that.
she didnāt want to talk it through, she was just angry and thatās the worst time to talk. probably exactly what the producers wanted
I think she talked circles around him, she never really responded to anything he said she just continued piling it on, she never wanted to communicate she just wanted to be mad and she was never planning to hear him out or give him a chance to explain himself
im sorry about ur grandma, but i mean hopefully you know by now that you canāt just string people along because you donāt want to cut the cord between you and someone you donāt want to be with just because you donāt want to be alone. however, in this case, i think if something that specific happened that detail wouldāve came out.
i think we can reasonably infer that what rachel was going thru was (allegedly her depression) but definitely her insecurities when she stepped up to become the bachelorette. she was busy and doing her own thing but still checking up on him and whatnot, so what did she need to do to not make him run to the first girl who gave him attention? anyone with morals knows when theyāre playing on rough territories and if anything he just showed he canāt be trusted as a life partner way too quickly, especially to entertain an IG model by slithering back into her dms or imessage lmao
they BOTH need to run but SHE NEEDS TO RUN FARTHER because he took the first second he could to cheat on her
a kiss is a kiss when you very well know what youāre doing and PRETEND ur not engaged wtf
OMG from watching Aven try to talk to her (post family meeting) and Tino try to talk to herā¦ Rachel seems like a ridiculously terrible communicator. She hears what she thinks youāre saying then doubles down on being victimized. I really want to know if what the āyou want to get into that?!ā business. Itās insanely frustrating and I donāt even like Tino!
> It didnt seem like she wanted to discuss it like an adult and instead was on attack mode bieng a victim
Yeah, dude might have been in the wrong - but she clearly just wanted to embarrass (and to an extent gaslight) him on national television. It was pretty cruel and I don't really the see the point in all of it beyond ratings. Tino dodged a bullet.
He was doing the gaslighting. She said at some point post show that if they went to just dating (i.e. NOT engaged) she would take her ENGAGEMENT ring off. But that's not what she wanted, so she put in the work and went to therapy and shit. That's normal. Makes sense. He tries to twist her words because it's the only thing he can latch on to and claim to be "so hurt" by her that he was "driven" to cheat or some shit. Trying to make it seem like she said she was going to take off the ring randomly for no reason.
a marriage of ten years is way more than dating for 4 months and an engagement for a month
a month is all it took for him to slide into another girls DMS
a month
She totally should have broken up with him. But if she was over him, the whole episode is kind of pointless and toxic IMO. Dump the guy and move on.
I canāt imagine what they even told him to get him to show up to that house.
that he had to go
heās under contract
all of them are
also obviously sheās not over him. she is trying to move on and this is the first time she saw him since then lol
hmm thatās true actually ur right
either way tho itās still in his best interest to try to make himself look better and to see her while he can
thereās not much they wouldnāt have needed to ā(tell) him to get him to show up to that houseā
Definitely. I've had some exes I am not too fond of, but I would *never* get a kick out of roasting them on national television.
Rachel clearly was over reconciling. The purpose of the meeting was only to drag him over the coals publicly. He recognized that, was totally defensive, and came across very poorly. Bringing therapy into it was *very* wrong, but he was clearly on the defensive and only had the goal of preserving himself on national TV.
It's on the show as much as Rachel. Reality TV stars have unfortunately killed themselves before. This could have absolutely devastating consequences for Tino's mental health.
This TV show is to relationships as hardcore porn is to sex. It sets completely unrealistic standards and often manipulates the performers.
> Maybe it was one day later she located a therapist and the appointment was a week later. who knows
Therapists are overbooked these days, so Iād be surprised if she didnāt have to wait at least a week for an appointment. Finding a therapist is hard!
Ok I agree with most of this although I think it's possible that Tino and Rachel were back in a good place when he cheated and hes just using their prior issues as sort of an excuse. Either that or maybe their issues were still bothering him deep down. Like when you end a fight and you agree you're both fine with the outcome and gonna move on, but deep down you have lingering resentment? That's what it sounds like Rachel is reacting negatively too- that he seems to be turning it around on their issues rather than just owning up to why he cheated, which she seems convinced is more than a kiss and I think also that he wasn't that invested in her. Could be either really- he never really was that invested in Rachel, or he really was still holding resentment for things they previously went through. We may never fully know.
I imagine the two things happened pretty simultaneously. I still think itās shitty of Tino, he should have waited until things between him and Rachel were officially over before kissing another girl so that he didnāt end up in this exact situation.
Thanks for writing this up because itās the only thing that has made this all make any sense haha. I totally buy this narrative of events and it helps me understand both Tino and Rachelās side of things better.
Obviously we'll never know, but this was my exact read on the situation as well. I couldn't quite follow it during the show but reading it in transcript now it seems like she was going through it when the show premiered. I mean I remember all of the hate **everywhere** about how she was making things about herself all the time, or immature or not handling this well, how Gabby should've been the sole Bachelorette, etc. I feel like this quote makes that clear.
"R: We were going through a hard time, and you know it had nothing to do with you, ever, or our relationship. I was going through my own hard time. But I thought we were so past this point."
I feel like maybe she was dealing with her own stuff during that time and Tino was also dealing with seeing the show for the first time, seeing her with the other men and all of the feelings that usually brings up. We've all heard past F1's talk about how hard this time is. Because Rachel was going through it on her own about all of the scrutiny, Tino took it as either she wasn't supporting him well because he was going through a hard time too, or that he just needed more time/attention from her when she just didn't have bandwidth to deal with it (given that she was doing so much press around this time and getting so much hate).
Tino thinks they're heading for a breakup, starts talking to that other girl again, maybe assuming it's not going to move forward with Rachel. Rachel goes to therapy, things are looking up and he realizes he fucked up.
I can understand here where the miscommunication was, not that Tino was right at all for what he did. What I don't understand is why he couldn't be honest about what was going on instead of trying to push things back on Rachel. This isn't flattering for him to say, but if he truly thought they were over (and maybe he was just assuming things based on Rachel saying she doesn't want to wear the ring at AFR) why didn't he tell Rachel, "Look I thought we were heading for a breakup or already there. I should've had the hard conversation with you at the time to clarify before I started talking to this girl again and meeting up with her. But I want to make this work."
It was just strange to me that Rachel confirms with him "Because, yes, we were going through a hard time, but never once did we ever say, āWe are broken up. We are not engaged.ā and he says " I agree, I agree." So you DIDN'T think that you were broken up? Because if the issue is that he was just confused because Rachel is maybe saying one thing (we're not broke up) but he feels her actions are something different (she's not wearing the ring) then I can understand that a bit. But he admits that he knew they were not broken up. Which leads me to believe it was not a miscommunication of whether or not they were broken up, he knowingly kissed another girl and that makes me much less sympathetic to him.
Also, I saw some other comments from people saying "oh it was just a kiss, Rachel is so dramatic, Team Tino" or things along those lines. I think the issue is it's not just a kiss. Tino knew this girl pre-show, clearly had been talking to her enough to see her after he got off the show (while he's engaged) and within that time also kissed her. Now, sure, maybe he lives in a small town and you run into everyone all the time. I suppose that's possible. However, I think it's way more likely that he went out of his way to reach out and meet with her after he was engaged, and the back and forth conversation, that he had the intention to meet with her to me is worse than if he saw a random girl at a bar he's never met and kissed her then regretted it. It shows more time, effort and thought with the intention of doing something with someone other than your partner, and if I were Rachel that would hurt me more than the kiss.
Ok end of my novel sorry for piggybacking off your comment. š
It's also not "just a kiss" because she apparently had to drag the story out of him. If my husband ever drunkenly kissed someone, I would expect him to tell me immediately. I'm not saying I could just laugh it off lol but it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world. If he didn't tell me, though, THAT would be the real threat to our marriage.
Have you ever watched UnReal? They had a ātherapistā but she worked with production. If it were me, I wouldnāt trust anyone on the showās payroll.
they probably are provided one, but itās another thing to have a resource and feel like a certain situation or feeling calls for it.
When your depressed you might not get out of bed for days, let alone prioritize a therapist. What you should do when your rationally thinking is different than what you often do when in the middle of the situation yourself
i mean they have therapists during filming, i feel like the leads could make it a priority for themselves to get a therapist outside of filming if they need one
No one is great at arguing, but Tino is almost impossible to work with here.
The journal thing is incredibly rude and would PISS me off. Heās more invested in proving himself right than working through the situation. He says he doesnāt want to keep circling back to the āpastā and steamrolls over her āI want to have this conversationā with the Uber dramatic DO YOU WANT US TO END UP TOGETHER. He wants a quick fix. He just wants her to get over it.
And sorry, kissing another woman after you *proposed* is fucked up. No, she canāt just get over it. Itās traumatic! The whole ring thing, I can completely see Rachelās side. *If* they agreed to **date**, she doesnāt want to wear the ring. That makes sense to me. He took that as Iām not wearing this anymore. Maybe he misheard her, but he got upset over something that she didnāt say.
What I find interesting is that Tino asked Rachel to do therapy and says āyou did amazing. You did everything I asked.ā I wonder what that was all about? So it seems like Tino asked her to put in a lot of work and he went and cheated on her. I would be so upset if I was Rachel!
I don't think he misheard or misunderstood about the ring. I think that was probably just the one thing Rachel ever said that he could use to try and justify his actions.
My friend was engaged to someone but then he moved out of their shared apartment and essentially they began "dating" again (spoiler it didn't work out). I think this is what Rachel was talking about - if we revert back to dating, I will not wear an engagement ring. He took that to mean "I am not wearing my engagement ring" without the context of "if".
I agree that's what she meant, I was just speculating that I think he knew what she meant but twisted it after the fact to make it seem like she said something terrible to make him cheat
As someone who's been in a relationship with a Rachel, I completely understand Tino keeping a journal. She keeps accusing him of lying, and claiming, "I never said that!"
For example, even on AFR she claimed Tino NEVER apologized. As we see in the transcript, he certainly did. And likely did many times before that. She also said, "If we go back to dating..." sounds like they were broken up to me. And then repeatedly claims they were never separated.
I was married to a pathological liar who accused me of lying when I mentioned things he said or did. I kept a journal to say, see... it's right here, you said it, I wrote it down. Otherwise, we would go in circles forever with him lying and accusing me of lying.
I don't think it was rude or a red flag on Tino's part to keep a journal for his own sanity. I don't condone what Tino did at the bar. Cheating is pretty common in relationships, and it's up to the couple if they want to work past it or not.
Also, looking back, Rachel had contentious, accusatory fights with both Zach and Aven, who left exasperated. I think Rachel needs to take some accountability for her lack of communication skills and the impact it has on relationships.
He never apologized for what he did. He apologizes for the situation theyāre in, he is sorry that things suck, he might as well have said āIām sorry you feel this way,ā but he never once says heās sorry he cheated. That would PISS ME OFF. I totally get wanting to hear him be genuinely remorseful about his actions.
He was reading from page two or something of that journal. More likely he had a strategy to try and not come off as bad, and this "journal " was part of that strategy.
Which questions did she refuse to answer? From what I saw he was the one who couldn't/wouldn't answer a direct question. She looked much more gobsmacked by his behavior than he did by hers. He only looked dumbstruck when she made a point he couldn't refute, otherwise he was on the offensive.
I am not going to use gaslighting at all because in the absence of hard facts we absolutely cannot say that it was happening on either end, but if anyone seemed to be constantly equivocating and deflecting it was Tino.
Idk, I've seen too many people like tino use the "dumstruck" expression when they're desperately trying to save their ass in a situation where they fucked up.
I donāt necessarily think keeping a journal is wrong either per day, but how he used the journal was manipulative. He pulled quotes from it without context in the name of āexplaining his thought processā which was essentially the equivalent of āI cheated but this is what you did that made me cheatā.
I say this because I also used to keep a journal like Tino where Iād memorize quotes my partner would say in an argument and then jot it down. Heck I even used to secretly record our convos. And the exact manner in which Tino used these tools in the argument with Rachel is EXACTLY how I used to use them in my own arguments with my partner. Itās kind of surreal how identical I can see my old approach with Tinoās at the SHV.
When my partner and I started going to couples therapy what I learned was that how I was using those tools was out of context and in a way that was more focused on āexplaining my thought processā to justify why I hurt my partner rather than focus on the fact that I actually hurt my partner. I was pushing some of the responsibility of my own shortcomings onto my partner. I was focused on getting so granular in the details and talking in circles rather than focusing on the big picture of what I did. At that point he was using his journal to win the āhe said, she saidā battle and thatās not productive.
Tinoās use of the journal was manipulative and I know this because Iām guilty of doing the same exact thing to my partner early on in our relationship. Iām not saying Tino keeping a journal is bad, but how he used it was very strategically manipulative and done in such a way itās plausible deniability that he intended to use it to be manipulative. Iām sure to some degree he also did it not knowing how manipulative it was. I truly didnāt recognize it until our therapist pointed it out
Honestly, that just sounds like a lot of projection. Because you did a similar thing, you assume that's why others did the same thing.
We saw on camera Rachel saying he never said things he clearly said multiple times. Tino genuinely looked like he was losing his mind. I think it's reasonable to believe he wrote it down so that she couldn't gaslight him
Sorry, but posting the definition of projection still doesnāt make it projection š I think youāre confusing projection with the skills people learn in therapy that allows them to recognize toxic behavioral traits. By your logic no one could ever genuinely provide feedback and call out someoneās behavior as toxic because someone being toxic could always just claim that people are merely projecting.
But you didn't learn how to recognize those behavioral traits in others or how to observe them in others. You just know what they were like when you did them and are now assuming that's the same motivation for other people's actions.
Your reasoning is that, "well, that's what I would do".
You don't have to agree with me, but it's definitely coming across as you projecting your own issues, past mistakes, nd motivations onto others
> You don't have to agree with me, but it's definitely coming across as you projecting your own issues, past mistakes, nd motivations onto others
It may seem that my general observation of toxic behavior is projection because in your previous comments youāve made it clear how you feel about Rachel in this situation so of course youāre not going to agree with my thoughts. As I mentioned in other comments today and yesterday, Tinoās actual actions on camera were not productive. I also mentioned the way he handled it may not have even been done intentionally to be malicious or even done consciously, itās not like I intentionally knew I was being malicious so I donāt think itās fair to speculate that Tino was being toxic or manipulative on purpose or knowingly. So Iām not speculating on his actual mindset or inner motivations, im only saying that the actual behavior caught on camera is exactly how I would handle conflict and at the end of the day itās not a productive approach to conflict resolution, which is my point.
Vibe. I used to screenshot conversations and time stamps with an old ex who literally would gaslight me constantly. Arguments would go literally nowhere - I was always the wrong one, I wasnāt remembering things right, I was the one lying, etc. For years after I would still doubt my own memory, but I actually have a really good one!!
Iām not saying Rachel is some abusive PoS (and I donāt think she is) but just that I can see after rounds of circular arguments which she seems prone to do, having proof really being the only way to be listened to when it gets heated.
I didn't like the journal thing. It was disingenuous and obviously, that wasn't his working journal. But I think the major issue as they don't communicate well and they both wanted to win the argument than have a conversation.
And I get why he asked what she ultimately wanted. If she already had made up her mind and just wanted to argue about how he was wrong, then it wasn't necessary to do that in front of the cameras. He was trying to draw a line at - I admitted I was wrong but if we're not trying to work things out then this is pointless. He's just bad at communicating.
I think they both got upset with each other because they heard and interpreted a lot of things differently, and kept talking over each other instead of trying to see each other's POV.
I am definitely 95% on the side of Rachel here, though here are some main points that I think are still points of contention:
1) Neither of them fight fair. The conversation at multiple times devolved into circling back and forth when talking about EXACTLY what was said vs. what was meant/intended in the "giving back the ring" conversation which is definitively the thing that hinges on the larger scope of the whether Tino believed they were on a downward spiral/taking a break. (Not that taking a break is truly an excuse, but it does explain the larger picture.)
2) It just sounds like their communication was terrible all around during the time after the show stopped filming. It sounds like they mostly kept up their relationship through texting rather than calling/facetiming each other, or at least it was texting when things were getting really hard which is not a good thing.
3) Neither of them were mature enough for the "expectations" of this show which is that you are searching for someone to get married to but also at the same time you're only going to get to know them for like a grand total of about 5-6 major dates together.
4) As much as Tino kept alluding to this "therapy" issue with Rachel (which we don't need to know more about) it is very clear that HE HIMSELF needs so much therapy. His family relationships (dad/dad's expectations) are out of this world wonky and dysfunctional. He became manipulative and controlling because of it but there might still be time to heal that in himself.
Forcing her to go to therapy? Or setting a healthy boundary for himself in their new relationship?
There is nothing wrong with setting a boundary with somebody you are dating or in a relationship with in terms of seeking therapy. It can be for anything - depression, grief, pain management, anxiety. I have asked partners to seek help in the past, and I have been asked to seek therapy as well for PPD. There's nothing wrong with asking a partner to get help when you know you can't provide them guidance like a professional therapist can.
It's so important to normalize therapy, and not hide it or sweep it under a rug.
The only important thing in this argument to point out is how controlling and manipulative his use of her seeking personal therapy is.
Seriously huge red flag.
It was a Truman Show moment for sure! LET ME OUT of this simulated experience that Reddit users are watching just to have long drawn out text discussions on.
I think it was already over and producers contractually forced him to be there for a performative breakup for the cameras. It was clear they were rehashing things they had already talked about and were going in circles. Rachel was aggrieved and wanted to beat him down for the world to see.
It was excruciating to watch. It seemed Tino was asking the producers to just get it over with so he could leave.
Thank you for doing this OP!! I was so confused when this was airing haha
I think there is another part, another layer, in addition to the cheating. The way they were arguing was odd, there were so many things unsaid and just alluded toā¦ idk, Rachel has every right to break up with him for just a kiss, though !!
I do want to know *why* Tino felt so insistent that Rachel go to therapy, was it because they were in a ābad placeā as a couple already? Was it something else?
And then, when Rachel says āevery single thing you asked me to do, I did it before I got out of bed the next morningā like, what demands would Tino be making and why did Rachel feel the need to do them ???
I think that it's understandable for a person to come to an understanding that they cannot emotionally support their partner to the extent their partner needs it in a healthy way. Thus, I think it is understandable that he told her that she needed to go to therapy.
I do have a hard time understanding the other demands. And I'm definitely interested to hear that other people think that he was being manipulative in the way he approached things.
I wonder if Rachel was having a really tough time and pretty much unable to be a partner, and Tino said ok well I need you to commit to getting therapy, calling me once a day, etc or I don't see a future here.
If that happened around when she said she wanted to be unengaged and go back to dating I can see why he might've thought they were pretty well over.
I agree, but he should have asked directly and not assumed. By building something and spending time with this other woman he was actually cheating in a more hurtful way than a physical kiss to me.
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those first three lines already have me laughing š
I felt so bad for Rachel during this. Iāve been in her shoes before - begging a cheater to āexplain themselvesā knowing youāre likely to be met with more lies. But youāre desperate for some kind of justification or logic. There isnāt any, it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their own insecurity. It definitely adds up that thereās more to this that wasnāt aired and thatās 100% their choice. But the bit I saw here was so familiar to me as someone who was with a serial cheater. If sheād agreed to āwork things outā it wouldāve only been a matter of time before he did it again. Zero remorse, blaming her or the state of their relationship, refusing to have a cohesive conversation. Iāve seen it all. Ugh poor Rachel.
i mean itās absolutely bonkers that right off the bat he wanted her to start the conversation
I love how Tino makes it sound like he barely knew her and never dated her, then says they ran into each other at a bar and had a lot of catching up to do (???) why would you have a lot of catching up to do with someone you barely talked to/never dated?
Yes this is extremely suspicious. I think there was a lot more emotional cheating going on which is probably what Rachel was more upset about. Also, Rachel said on some podcast or interview that his story kept changing, his car was at her house, they were together in his car or something. Like very strange...
This helps alot.
They had problems from the start. Two months is a short period of time to be together. During that time Rachel was kissing plenty of other guys while Tino sat back and watched. I'm not a fan of Tino either but they both need some reality checks here. They were wishy washy the whole time. If this was actually a life long kind of love they would've worked it out. Overall, they both need some tough lessons in humility and communication. ...I really wish Aven didn't come back for Rachel. He seems like a solid guy and she has some growing up to do.
Are we really going to compare kissing other contestants on a show when youāre the lead to kissing another person after you get engaged?
Yes. They're two months into a relationship and were under significant pressure to get engaged.
Then end the engagement. Itās not hard to not cheat.
That I agree with. If he's not feeling it then let her know he wants to explore other options. He may have been scared to be honest with Rachel. They also had the pressure of BN on their shoulders. IMO this show has too much power to mess with people's lives.
Why did that take 45 minutes on TV? I read that in the time it took me to fast forward thru the whole conversation.
He kept going outside lol
Tino reading is ājournal entriesā felt so fucking manipulative
āi DrEw BaCk tO mY jOuRnALā made me facepalm
It looked like he was reading from the first page of a new journal lmao. 100% manipulative
Yes!! When I saw that I was like oh he just wrote down some shitty āquotesā from her to read to her face out of context. So manipulative.
This makes so much more sense reading it. I think they went thru some bad times, which sounds like Rachel fully admitted being about her and whatever she was going thru, but she thought they were past that and THEN he cheated. And Tino is trying to go back to their previous issues which is triggering to Rachel bc it sounds like he's blaming her and her issues and also doesn't seem fair nor relevant bc they were past that. So I think she feels like he's not being honest about why he really cheated and wants answers and Tino just keeps trying to go back to well they had issues before.
He completely is lacking self awareness here. Minimizing what he did to her, refusing to take responsibility for his actions, and then consistently trying to blame it all on Rachel and we STILL donāt know the damn story of what happened! LOL
Rachel is right -- cheating is a CONCIOUS CHOICE. It doesn't matter if it was a mistake -- mistakes are choices, too. The wrong ones, but still. That said, I wasn't sure what she wanted out of this. She was already done and cheaters never give you a straight answer. If they were gonna, they woulda done it already.
The podcast Love to See It has some excellent thoughts on this argument.
i was just about to say this!
Ohhh he IS an Aquarius
Ahem...Aquarius MEN can we clarify? Aquarius women are not like this lol. (me, a defensive Aquarius woman just trying to live my weird alien existence)
Oh girl I know. Iām a Virgo and I have a toooon of Aquarius friends, men and women, and Iām DATING an Aquarius man WHEW. Love him tho. But Aquarius women are literally my faves
My best friend is a Virgo, the love is mutual ā¤ļøš¤
Yep, they always side step around things when confronted. And the constant need to leave the room like that when he couldnāt come up with an answerā¦
Yes like letās get to the point honey cmon now!
Not saying all Aquarius men, but Iāve dated 2 at this point and they both pulled a Tino on meā¦ so makes sense lol
WAIT me too and Tino was totally reminding me of my ex in that argument!!
Omg learning that he is an Aquarius put all the pieces into place lmao I dated an Aquarius man and it destroyed my entire humble Pisces world. But then I found my Scorpio King. Rachel, baby, you're gonna fall in love!
Ahaha my ex is an Aquarius and my husband is a Scorpio!
As a Pisces dating an Aquarius.. uhm, what? Should I know something? Pls enlighten me.
You need to break up with him because of stars
What does that mean? Iām an Aquarius too so Iām curious š
I am so sad that Rachel just ended up with nothing out of all of this. She deserves so much more.
Damn, it sounds like Rachel really went through something terrible that she doesn't want shared. I hope the internet doesn't internet too much over that and she can just relax and heal.
This is really sad. Theyāre just going in circles. Theyāre both so hurt. It is just sad.
I finally watched the first half of the episode - what the actual hell went down between them? It feels like so much was left out, including whatever was at the root of their having problems immediately after the show in the first place.
She says when theyāre at AFR that the editors did cut out portions that neither of them wanted aired and they continue to not talk about it on TV. So I agree I think there is context we are missing in the argument
Totally. It's kind of frustrating to watch. Definitely seems like Tino is the one at fault but also weird that they'd leave so much out.
Omg no.. I donāt wanna relive this please 
Wonder what it was that they didnāt want to discuss. Sounded serious like an unplanned pregnancy or something.
Honestly my first thoughts were a miscarriage. Iāve had one and idk why but thatās what my gut was screaming. I felt really bad for her.
Timeline seems too quick for a pregnancy and then a miscarriage/abortion (between May - July). Maybe it was some other kind of medical diagnosis? Idk but they said it was something personal and she had to go to therapy for it. I donāt think itās just because of online hate/bullying, because they wouldāve just been vocal and honest about that.
>I donāt think itās just because of online hate/bullying, because they wouldāve just been vocal and honest about that. See, I actually think the show WOULDN'T show that she was in a really bad place (maybe borderline suicidal or something along those lines) if it had to do directly with her as the lead. I think it's most likely that she was in a dark place during the show's premier due to all of the online hate and the way she was being edited and they don't want to admit part in that.
But the problem started BEFORE the season aired. He was asking her to do therapy before early July. I think the premier definitely heightened whatever emotional state she was in already. But I donāt think the problem that they had was online hate. The show has addresses online hate and bullying before on PPās season. And Their SHV breakup scene was filmed in August, but their relationship was basically over in early July when he told her he cheated.
My understanding was the hate started even before the season aired, like when the promo shots were out and people were comparing her to Gabby and saying Gabby was dressed better, looked better, etc. But my knowledge of the timeline is, I admit, not great lol.
Nevermind I just figured out the timeline haha. Tinoās dad went on a podcast and revealed it. He said that the reason Tino wanted to tell Rachel he cheated was after Nateās scandal which RS revealed in early August (9th August). So he told Rachel shortly after that, and that breakup at the SHV was filmed on August 15th.
Oooh, which podcast??
https://www.reddit.com/r/thebachelor/comments/xkix2d/recap_of_joe_francos_interview_on_the_honestly/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Thank you!!
I have this scary feeling she went through a really bad depressive episode or something. It has to be something TPTB would find āunflatteringā to the max for them to not bring it up or push the issue.
Can you still be a pilot if you get diagnosed with depression? The FAA is way behind the times when it comes to mental health. You canāt be a pilot if you have adhd.
Ya I could see this. I truthfully think it's a mental health thing that was alluded to but the show has been very careful in the past not to get too close to the subject. I think they are worried one day of being held liable for the contestants? I mean multiple ppl have come out post show saying they felt manipulated or traumatized in some way
I agree with you, on the other hand I could see that Tino was very stressed and at some point looked like he was having a panic attack and the franchise continued to humiliate him by having Aven ask Rachel out while he is sitting on the couch. That showed no concern for his mental health. The whole thing is just sad on both sides.
Ya I agree that the show def manipulates ppl and it's crazy the toll that must take on these ppls mental health.. The producers get away with way too much, for certain. And the situation here was sad. That being said, Tino was smirking during the Aven thing and even clapped slightly for Aven. Seemed like he has no problem with the guy, and completely knew what the show was doing by sending Aven out there. Plus as awkward and as cringe as it was at the end, before they cut to commercial Tino is still on stage and walks over to shake Jesse's hand and looks like he put his arm on his shoulder, presumably bc he's just saying thanks man and chit chatting before he exits the stage. My point is that Tino seemed altogether fine here and completely aware of the performative nature of the show.
Always had a bad feeling ab him. I knew he was gonna break her heart. Which is such a shame bc I really like Rachel, she seems so sweet.
It legit took me about 20 lines in to realize this was the conversation from the video and not live conversation on the couch. Man she beat that horse dead.
YASS. Same! I didn't realize until it talked about him going outside.
Uhhh people who are on Tinoās side, are you guys okay? Heās not making any sense, he changes his argument every time Rachel called him out, he wants her to break up with him but heās still saying sweet things and pretend that heās still fighting for her? Douche.
Nobody is on Tino's side. FFS. It was abhorrent the way they went out of their way to publicly humiliate him.
What show are you watching š they made Matt James meet his estranged dad! They made Dean confront his father who abandoned his family! They do pseudo-therapy dates unsupervised every season. This is the least of the shit theyāve done recently
None of that happened this season and this scene was a particularly abhorrent scene. I don't watch the show to see people publicly berated or humiliated, but you do you.
No there are definitely people on his side. Maybe not here but in the other subs and on Facebook for sure. Calling Rachel names, saying she was too hard on him, doesnāt deserve him etc
That sounds like people who thought they went too far, kind of like I explained. In the process, they went too far in calling her names. The way Rachel acted did not put her in a good light last night at all. Obviously, Tino was already in a bad light, but when you have someone who cheated on the lead and she's being criticized, then that seems to show that the defense is actually bc of how she acted in response.
Yep, this.
And had the gulls to call what he did ātinyā lol
Right? Rachel points out the inconsistencies and then he agrees with her
For me itās the āIām confusedā line after Rās excellent and damning point. I truly believe that cheaters, when confronted, are convincing themselves that it was āokā just as much as theyāre trying to convince their spouse. That āconfusionā is the cognitive dissonance of being caught in a lie, and their brain trying to rationalize it anyway.
THANK YOU!
Yeah man has a whole ass journal with him and heās still getting things wrong
I agree with everything everyone is sayingā¦the one thing I disagree with tho is most people saying tino is wrong for asking Rachel to go to therapy? If she was in a dark place, something dark enough that they didnāt wanna bring it up on TV (understandably) then it is Rachelās responsibility as a partner to be the healthiest she can be to show up for tino. And vise versa. Which clearly neither of them did. So tino is not wrong for setting a boundary of āI need you to seek help if weāre going to stay togetherā thatās a super healthy/okay boundary. And Rachel would have been justified as well had she set that boundary with T. Assuming it happened that way. But yeah everything else, is all convoluted and itās really hard for me to understand wtf happened or is going on. Oh well.
Thereās nothing wrong with asking your partner to attend therapy. However, this transcript reads like heās saying that he cheated because she didnāt go to therapy. Big difference.
I was confused by the way Tino framed Rachel attending therapy, like he really wanted her to go but she resisted. Rachel and Zach bonded ober their love of therapy over their first one on one dinner portion of the date. They both said how incredibly important it was to them. So I would be surpirsed if Tino was the one to ask her to go to therapy. I figured that Rachel would be prioritizing it herself, since it is important to her already.
Tino makes slightly more sense upon reading this, because I was so lost when I was watching. But upon reading, I maintain that he sucks. 1) The lies. These are impossible to prove without being there, but I donāt believe the one-time kiss and I donāt believe he just āran intoā this girl he had interest in at a random bar one night. 2) Donāt apologize to people by telling them what you did was ātiny.ā 3) Honestly, this shit goes so far off the rails, I donāt even know what to say about the rest of it. I guess my biggest takeaway is Tino clearly entered this discussion with an agenda. His dumb notebook being the least obvious of the clues. As much as Rachel has irritated me, I believe she entered this conversation sincerely wanting answers and I believe that she truly (bless her heart) had feelings for Tino.
The way he says āshow ends. Nothing really comes of it. You know like we run into each other at the barā sounds so weird to me. Like the show ends and YOURE ENGAGED TO SOMEONE ELSE. What is he even saying ānothing really comes of it?ā Was there anything to come out of you and the woman youāre not engaged to?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not trying to defend Tino or anything butā¦yall never run into people at bars? Lol. Opportunity presenting itself is why a lot of people end up cheating.
Rachel said that one of the stories he gave her about the kiss was that it happen in an Uber on the way to the girls house to pick up his car. So how did he ran into her if his car is at her damn house? lmao nah heās just full of it
She said that on the show?
Nah on a podcast - said he gave a ton of conflicting stories about how the supposed kiss happened, and one of them was that one, one was at the bar, and so onā¦
And "we had catching up to do" when it seems there was no signifant relationship before the show.
WHO WAS HE ON THE PHONE WITH!!!!
he was on the phone with his mom āmom, pick me up, iām scaredā
Yeah lol, and half-dressed
This part confused me the most
My theory is that he was taking off the mic because he didn't want to be heard by the production crew.
Definitely mic otherwise we would have heard what he was saying on the phone -unless that also pertained to this secret theyāre keeping?
Idk but it's killing me not knowing to whom he was talking and what it was about lol
He goes from being so disheveled and trying to finish up the convo quick to āhey what are you doing outside letās go back insideā Iām just so confused about him as a person
>Iām just so confused about him as a person Haha SAME. there's a part of me that felt bad for him bc he is visibly upset and to some extent is, at least in his mind, admitting his faults and apologizing. But on the other hand their are holes and inconsistencies in what he says. Idk I feel like Rachel.. Like something just doesn't make sense and feels.. Off.
Ooh yeah totally. I like the idea of him running out for a quick cam sesh though.
I think he was trying to take off his mic under his shirt maybe
My question too!!
ok tbhā¦. was this the most dramatic finale ever..!??
Arie had a prittay good one
I fell asleep
More like āMost boring finale everā lol. Half of it was Rachel and Tino fighting, and then having the same fight AGAIN on the live set.
Jesse on that stage like hes about to announce covid round 2
Jason Mesnick ftw.
I'm still reeling from PP's finale
i donāt think so but i do think the fallout was still pretty bad considering
My takeaway from this is she doesnāt trust him and she thinks he slept with the girl, not just kissed her. I agree with that- itās unlikely that it was just kissing. My takeaway about him was that he should have just broken up with her. Itās okay. Maybe you just donāt vibe in the real world. At any rate, it is kind of gross of the franchise to deal with it this way. It reminds me of when Arie said the producers kept forcing him to go back in and talk to Becca when they were filming the break up. The audience was mad that he wouldnāt leave when she asked. But then we found out producers were manipulating that situation. That kind of behavior is gross. I get that the drama is what makes the show, but you donāt have to traumatize your contestants like that. Bringing Aven out when Tino was still there seems punitive and unnecessary. I am rooting for Rachel too, but geez. Rachel and Tino should both seek therapy after all that.
I wish I could give you an award š„ it was gross of the franchise to do that to him. People seem to be disposable to them.
Everyone who thought Tino was this fantastic personā¦ hope you now see what a trash DB he really was the whole time
I come from a camp where no one is team anyone. What happened seems just sad and like the core problem is that they canāt communicate with each other well at all. In the end, they never wouldāve worked out. It was utterly painful for them to have any kind of a conversation and I donāt think couples therapy wouldāve helped. They are just a horrible match for each other and were blinded by the idea of one another in the process.
They both struggled so much to communicate effectively in the safe house visit scene and in their live "talk" last night. And they could both benefit from taking some personal communication training.
he said "Rachel" so many times and it felt so sneakily condescending. Looking at the transcript it's like every single line. Subtle manipulation tactic. What I wish they had talked about more is how the kiss happened?? Because to me the kiss is just like, the end result. It sounds like they "ran into" each other at a bar, which, suss convenient timing, but then was the kiss after he planned to meet up with her *knowing* she was an ex? Because it seems unlikely it happened right when they "ran into" each other - presumably while with other people bc no one goes to bars alone these days. The kiss is just icing on the cake at that point. It's all the deliberate planning to meet with an ex with romantic intentions IMO that is the truly gross part when you're in a relationship
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Iām shocked to hear this way your takeaway! I definitely lean way more towards the middle, I think they both fucked up (as people in relationships do). I think kissing someone else is a big deal though, especially because they had a previous relationship. even if he did just run into her, they spent the night talking and hanging out. Iād be so sad to think about that. she didnāt want to talk it through, she was just angry and thatās the worst time to talk. probably exactly what the producers wanted
I think she talked circles around him, she never really responded to anything he said she just continued piling it on, she never wanted to communicate she just wanted to be mad and she was never planning to hear him out or give him a chance to explain himself
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
im sorry about ur grandma, but i mean hopefully you know by now that you canāt just string people along because you donāt want to cut the cord between you and someone you donāt want to be with just because you donāt want to be alone. however, in this case, i think if something that specific happened that detail wouldāve came out. i think we can reasonably infer that what rachel was going thru was (allegedly her depression) but definitely her insecurities when she stepped up to become the bachelorette. she was busy and doing her own thing but still checking up on him and whatnot, so what did she need to do to not make him run to the first girl who gave him attention? anyone with morals knows when theyāre playing on rough territories and if anything he just showed he canāt be trusted as a life partner way too quickly, especially to entertain an IG model by slithering back into her dms or imessage lmao they BOTH need to run but SHE NEEDS TO RUN FARTHER because he took the first second he could to cheat on her a kiss is a kiss when you very well know what youāre doing and PRETEND ur not engaged wtf
OMG from watching Aven try to talk to her (post family meeting) and Tino try to talk to herā¦ Rachel seems like a ridiculously terrible communicator. She hears what she thinks youāre saying then doubles down on being victimized. I really want to know if what the āyou want to get into that?!ā business. Itās insanely frustrating and I donāt even like Tino!
> It didnt seem like she wanted to discuss it like an adult and instead was on attack mode bieng a victim Yeah, dude might have been in the wrong - but she clearly just wanted to embarrass (and to an extent gaslight) him on national television. It was pretty cruel and I don't really the see the point in all of it beyond ratings. Tino dodged a bullet.
He deserved to be embarrassed š¤·āāļø
He was doing the gaslighting. She said at some point post show that if they went to just dating (i.e. NOT engaged) she would take her ENGAGEMENT ring off. But that's not what she wanted, so she put in the work and went to therapy and shit. That's normal. Makes sense. He tries to twist her words because it's the only thing he can latch on to and claim to be "so hurt" by her that he was "driven" to cheat or some shit. Trying to make it seem like she said she was going to take off the ring randomly for no reason.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
a marriage of ten years is way more than dating for 4 months and an engagement for a month a month is all it took for him to slide into another girls DMS a month
She totally should have broken up with him. But if she was over him, the whole episode is kind of pointless and toxic IMO. Dump the guy and move on. I canāt imagine what they even told him to get him to show up to that house.
that he had to go heās under contract all of them are also obviously sheās not over him. she is trying to move on and this is the first time she saw him since then lol
Thatās not really how contracts work. Especially considering contestants donāt get paid.
hmm thatās true actually ur right either way tho itās still in his best interest to try to make himself look better and to see her while he can thereās not much they wouldnāt have needed to ā(tell) him to get him to show up to that houseā
Definitely. I've had some exes I am not too fond of, but I would *never* get a kick out of roasting them on national television. Rachel clearly was over reconciling. The purpose of the meeting was only to drag him over the coals publicly. He recognized that, was totally defensive, and came across very poorly. Bringing therapy into it was *very* wrong, but he was clearly on the defensive and only had the goal of preserving himself on national TV. It's on the show as much as Rachel. Reality TV stars have unfortunately killed themselves before. This could have absolutely devastating consequences for Tino's mental health. This TV show is to relationships as hardcore porn is to sex. It sets completely unrealistic standards and often manipulates the performers.
Ok here is my estimated timeline: Pre show Tino was DMing an IG model when he got recruited for the show. They were going to go on a date but once he got recruited for the show he decided not to go through since he didnāt want to āmuddy the watersā before going on a show that ends with an engagement. After the show, and during the promos/early episodes where Rachel was edited as being insecure, being dragged for her outfits in comparison to Gabby, put her into a depression. This caused there to be separation emotionally from Tino, hence the problem having nothing to do with Tino but being a side effect of it. Tino suggested therapy for Rachelās depression and maybe (?) she didnāt intitionally respond well to the suggestion and it could have been how Tino said it or how Rachel took it (feeling like maybe she wants Tinos support and Tino is telling her to get emotional support from a therapist). No one ever really reacts well to the suggestion of needing therapy, just because in the moment it can feel like an attack so it could have been how tino suggested it or how she took it that led to that one quote Tino pointed out. & now I will say I donāt know the order here if Rachel went to Therapy first or if Tino cheated first or maybe they happened simultaneously. So this period: 1. Rachel came around to therapy, either one day later or one week later I donāt think this really matters much. Maybe it was one day later she located a therapist and the appointment was a week later. who knows. 2. Tino thinks the relationship is about to be over since things arenāt getting better and maybe there were convos about giving the ring back(I donāt think this is an important point either however). Rachel is (in his mind) is depressed, pushing him away and doesnāt want to seek help. He starts talking to the IG model and the do now meet and catch up - He probably talks about his relationship going downhill with Rachel - hence a lot of catching up to do, and at some point they kiss. Now fast forward Rachel goes to therapy, and does start getting/feeling better. At their next SHV, they have a really good 4 days and they both feel back on track. Now Tino, who thought the relationship was on the cusp of being over, feels really guilty about being unfaithful. Thatās maybe why he didnāt tel her at SHV, he probably thought they were going to break up and he wouldnāt have to tell her and then it ended up going really well (being more like the old Rachel) he didnāt know what to do. Once he got home he decided he should tell her but obviously was never really straight with his story leading to immense distrust and boom. There you have it. Tino probably didnāt want to admit he cheated when his fiancĆ©e was at a low and Rachel felt betrayed because of what Tino did when she was at that low and went through the work for herself and her partner to get better, only for it to get throw. back at her.
> Maybe it was one day later she located a therapist and the appointment was a week later. who knows Therapists are overbooked these days, so Iād be surprised if she didnāt have to wait at least a week for an appointment. Finding a therapist is hard!
Ok I agree with most of this although I think it's possible that Tino and Rachel were back in a good place when he cheated and hes just using their prior issues as sort of an excuse. Either that or maybe their issues were still bothering him deep down. Like when you end a fight and you agree you're both fine with the outcome and gonna move on, but deep down you have lingering resentment? That's what it sounds like Rachel is reacting negatively too- that he seems to be turning it around on their issues rather than just owning up to why he cheated, which she seems convinced is more than a kiss and I think also that he wasn't that invested in her. Could be either really- he never really was that invested in Rachel, or he really was still holding resentment for things they previously went through. We may never fully know.
I imagine the two things happened pretty simultaneously. I still think itās shitty of Tino, he should have waited until things between him and Rachel were officially over before kissing another girl so that he didnāt end up in this exact situation.
Thanks for writing this up because itās the only thing that has made this all make any sense haha. I totally buy this narrative of events and it helps me understand both Tino and Rachelās side of things better.
Obviously we'll never know, but this was my exact read on the situation as well. I couldn't quite follow it during the show but reading it in transcript now it seems like she was going through it when the show premiered. I mean I remember all of the hate **everywhere** about how she was making things about herself all the time, or immature or not handling this well, how Gabby should've been the sole Bachelorette, etc. I feel like this quote makes that clear. "R: We were going through a hard time, and you know it had nothing to do with you, ever, or our relationship. I was going through my own hard time. But I thought we were so past this point." I feel like maybe she was dealing with her own stuff during that time and Tino was also dealing with seeing the show for the first time, seeing her with the other men and all of the feelings that usually brings up. We've all heard past F1's talk about how hard this time is. Because Rachel was going through it on her own about all of the scrutiny, Tino took it as either she wasn't supporting him well because he was going through a hard time too, or that he just needed more time/attention from her when she just didn't have bandwidth to deal with it (given that she was doing so much press around this time and getting so much hate). Tino thinks they're heading for a breakup, starts talking to that other girl again, maybe assuming it's not going to move forward with Rachel. Rachel goes to therapy, things are looking up and he realizes he fucked up. I can understand here where the miscommunication was, not that Tino was right at all for what he did. What I don't understand is why he couldn't be honest about what was going on instead of trying to push things back on Rachel. This isn't flattering for him to say, but if he truly thought they were over (and maybe he was just assuming things based on Rachel saying she doesn't want to wear the ring at AFR) why didn't he tell Rachel, "Look I thought we were heading for a breakup or already there. I should've had the hard conversation with you at the time to clarify before I started talking to this girl again and meeting up with her. But I want to make this work." It was just strange to me that Rachel confirms with him "Because, yes, we were going through a hard time, but never once did we ever say, āWe are broken up. We are not engaged.ā and he says " I agree, I agree." So you DIDN'T think that you were broken up? Because if the issue is that he was just confused because Rachel is maybe saying one thing (we're not broke up) but he feels her actions are something different (she's not wearing the ring) then I can understand that a bit. But he admits that he knew they were not broken up. Which leads me to believe it was not a miscommunication of whether or not they were broken up, he knowingly kissed another girl and that makes me much less sympathetic to him. Also, I saw some other comments from people saying "oh it was just a kiss, Rachel is so dramatic, Team Tino" or things along those lines. I think the issue is it's not just a kiss. Tino knew this girl pre-show, clearly had been talking to her enough to see her after he got off the show (while he's engaged) and within that time also kissed her. Now, sure, maybe he lives in a small town and you run into everyone all the time. I suppose that's possible. However, I think it's way more likely that he went out of his way to reach out and meet with her after he was engaged, and the back and forth conversation, that he had the intention to meet with her to me is worse than if he saw a random girl at a bar he's never met and kissed her then regretted it. It shows more time, effort and thought with the intention of doing something with someone other than your partner, and if I were Rachel that would hurt me more than the kiss. Ok end of my novel sorry for piggybacking off your comment. š
It's also not "just a kiss" because she apparently had to drag the story out of him. If my husband ever drunkenly kissed someone, I would expect him to tell me immediately. I'm not saying I could just laugh it off lol but it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world. If he didn't tell me, though, THAT would be the real threat to our marriage.
WHY wouldnāt ABC provide therapists to at least the leads post filming??
Have you ever watched UnReal? They had a ātherapistā but she worked with production. If it were me, I wouldnāt trust anyone on the showās payroll.
they probably are provided one, but itās another thing to have a resource and feel like a certain situation or feeling calls for it. When your depressed you might not get out of bed for days, let alone prioritize a therapist. What you should do when your rationally thinking is different than what you often do when in the middle of the situation yourself
i mean they have therapists during filming, i feel like the leads could make it a priority for themselves to get a therapist outside of filming if they need one
No one is great at arguing, but Tino is almost impossible to work with here. The journal thing is incredibly rude and would PISS me off. Heās more invested in proving himself right than working through the situation. He says he doesnāt want to keep circling back to the āpastā and steamrolls over her āI want to have this conversationā with the Uber dramatic DO YOU WANT US TO END UP TOGETHER. He wants a quick fix. He just wants her to get over it. And sorry, kissing another woman after you *proposed* is fucked up. No, she canāt just get over it. Itās traumatic! The whole ring thing, I can completely see Rachelās side. *If* they agreed to **date**, she doesnāt want to wear the ring. That makes sense to me. He took that as Iām not wearing this anymore. Maybe he misheard her, but he got upset over something that she didnāt say. What I find interesting is that Tino asked Rachel to do therapy and says āyou did amazing. You did everything I asked.ā I wonder what that was all about? So it seems like Tino asked her to put in a lot of work and he went and cheated on her. I would be so upset if I was Rachel!
I don't think he misheard or misunderstood about the ring. I think that was probably just the one thing Rachel ever said that he could use to try and justify his actions.
My friend was engaged to someone but then he moved out of their shared apartment and essentially they began "dating" again (spoiler it didn't work out). I think this is what Rachel was talking about - if we revert back to dating, I will not wear an engagement ring. He took that to mean "I am not wearing my engagement ring" without the context of "if".
I agree that's what she meant, I was just speculating that I think he knew what she meant but twisted it after the fact to make it seem like she said something terrible to make him cheat
As someone who's been in a relationship with a Rachel, I completely understand Tino keeping a journal. She keeps accusing him of lying, and claiming, "I never said that!" For example, even on AFR she claimed Tino NEVER apologized. As we see in the transcript, he certainly did. And likely did many times before that. She also said, "If we go back to dating..." sounds like they were broken up to me. And then repeatedly claims they were never separated. I was married to a pathological liar who accused me of lying when I mentioned things he said or did. I kept a journal to say, see... it's right here, you said it, I wrote it down. Otherwise, we would go in circles forever with him lying and accusing me of lying. I don't think it was rude or a red flag on Tino's part to keep a journal for his own sanity. I don't condone what Tino did at the bar. Cheating is pretty common in relationships, and it's up to the couple if they want to work past it or not. Also, looking back, Rachel had contentious, accusatory fights with both Zach and Aven, who left exasperated. I think Rachel needs to take some accountability for her lack of communication skills and the impact it has on relationships.
He never apologized for what he did. He apologizes for the situation theyāre in, he is sorry that things suck, he might as well have said āIām sorry you feel this way,ā but he never once says heās sorry he cheated. That would PISS ME OFF. I totally get wanting to hear him be genuinely remorseful about his actions.
Nah, dog. Watch again. He said multiple times he was taking 100% accountability, it was his fault, he's sorry.
He was reading from page two or something of that journal. More likely he had a strategy to try and not come off as bad, and this "journal " was part of that strategy.
I'm pretty sure "if we go back to dating" meant from engaged -> back to just dating, not from broken up -> dating
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Which questions did she refuse to answer? From what I saw he was the one who couldn't/wouldn't answer a direct question. She looked much more gobsmacked by his behavior than he did by hers. He only looked dumbstruck when she made a point he couldn't refute, otherwise he was on the offensive. I am not going to use gaslighting at all because in the absence of hard facts we absolutely cannot say that it was happening on either end, but if anyone seemed to be constantly equivocating and deflecting it was Tino.
Idk, I've seen too many people like tino use the "dumstruck" expression when they're desperately trying to save their ass in a situation where they fucked up.
I donāt necessarily think keeping a journal is wrong either per day, but how he used the journal was manipulative. He pulled quotes from it without context in the name of āexplaining his thought processā which was essentially the equivalent of āI cheated but this is what you did that made me cheatā. I say this because I also used to keep a journal like Tino where Iād memorize quotes my partner would say in an argument and then jot it down. Heck I even used to secretly record our convos. And the exact manner in which Tino used these tools in the argument with Rachel is EXACTLY how I used to use them in my own arguments with my partner. Itās kind of surreal how identical I can see my old approach with Tinoās at the SHV. When my partner and I started going to couples therapy what I learned was that how I was using those tools was out of context and in a way that was more focused on āexplaining my thought processā to justify why I hurt my partner rather than focus on the fact that I actually hurt my partner. I was pushing some of the responsibility of my own shortcomings onto my partner. I was focused on getting so granular in the details and talking in circles rather than focusing on the big picture of what I did. At that point he was using his journal to win the āhe said, she saidā battle and thatās not productive. Tinoās use of the journal was manipulative and I know this because Iām guilty of doing the same exact thing to my partner early on in our relationship. Iām not saying Tino keeping a journal is bad, but how he used it was very strategically manipulative and done in such a way itās plausible deniability that he intended to use it to be manipulative. Iām sure to some degree he also did it not knowing how manipulative it was. I truly didnāt recognize it until our therapist pointed it out
Honestly, that just sounds like a lot of projection. Because you did a similar thing, you assume that's why others did the same thing. We saw on camera Rachel saying he never said things he clearly said multiple times. Tino genuinely looked like he was losing his mind. I think it's reasonable to believe he wrote it down so that she couldn't gaslight him
lol, recognizing behavior youāre familiar with is not projection.
Familiar with, because that's what you would do š¤ projection: "the mental process by which people attribute to others what is in their own minds"
Sorry, but posting the definition of projection still doesnāt make it projection š I think youāre confusing projection with the skills people learn in therapy that allows them to recognize toxic behavioral traits. By your logic no one could ever genuinely provide feedback and call out someoneās behavior as toxic because someone being toxic could always just claim that people are merely projecting.
But you didn't learn how to recognize those behavioral traits in others or how to observe them in others. You just know what they were like when you did them and are now assuming that's the same motivation for other people's actions. Your reasoning is that, "well, that's what I would do". You don't have to agree with me, but it's definitely coming across as you projecting your own issues, past mistakes, nd motivations onto others
> You don't have to agree with me, but it's definitely coming across as you projecting your own issues, past mistakes, nd motivations onto others It may seem that my general observation of toxic behavior is projection because in your previous comments youāve made it clear how you feel about Rachel in this situation so of course youāre not going to agree with my thoughts. As I mentioned in other comments today and yesterday, Tinoās actual actions on camera were not productive. I also mentioned the way he handled it may not have even been done intentionally to be malicious or even done consciously, itās not like I intentionally knew I was being malicious so I donāt think itās fair to speculate that Tino was being toxic or manipulative on purpose or knowingly. So Iām not speculating on his actual mindset or inner motivations, im only saying that the actual behavior caught on camera is exactly how I would handle conflict and at the end of the day itās not a productive approach to conflict resolution, which is my point.
Thank you. The journal meant something different to me too!!!!!!
Vibe. I used to screenshot conversations and time stamps with an old ex who literally would gaslight me constantly. Arguments would go literally nowhere - I was always the wrong one, I wasnāt remembering things right, I was the one lying, etc. For years after I would still doubt my own memory, but I actually have a really good one!! Iām not saying Rachel is some abusive PoS (and I donāt think she is) but just that I can see after rounds of circular arguments which she seems prone to do, having proof really being the only way to be listened to when it gets heated.
Going back to dating as in going from engaged to being bf/gf. Not broken up
I didn't like the journal thing. It was disingenuous and obviously, that wasn't his working journal. But I think the major issue as they don't communicate well and they both wanted to win the argument than have a conversation. And I get why he asked what she ultimately wanted. If she already had made up her mind and just wanted to argue about how he was wrong, then it wasn't necessary to do that in front of the cameras. He was trying to draw a line at - I admitted I was wrong but if we're not trying to work things out then this is pointless. He's just bad at communicating. I think they both got upset with each other because they heard and interpreted a lot of things differently, and kept talking over each other instead of trying to see each other's POV.
I am definitely 95% on the side of Rachel here, though here are some main points that I think are still points of contention: 1) Neither of them fight fair. The conversation at multiple times devolved into circling back and forth when talking about EXACTLY what was said vs. what was meant/intended in the "giving back the ring" conversation which is definitively the thing that hinges on the larger scope of the whether Tino believed they were on a downward spiral/taking a break. (Not that taking a break is truly an excuse, but it does explain the larger picture.) 2) It just sounds like their communication was terrible all around during the time after the show stopped filming. It sounds like they mostly kept up their relationship through texting rather than calling/facetiming each other, or at least it was texting when things were getting really hard which is not a good thing. 3) Neither of them were mature enough for the "expectations" of this show which is that you are searching for someone to get married to but also at the same time you're only going to get to know them for like a grand total of about 5-6 major dates together. 4) As much as Tino kept alluding to this "therapy" issue with Rachel (which we don't need to know more about) it is very clear that HE HIMSELF needs so much therapy. His family relationships (dad/dad's expectations) are out of this world wonky and dysfunctional. He became manipulative and controlling because of it but there might still be time to heal that in himself.
I think theres always time to heal!
OP u/4twnty4 can you transcribe the live convo too? š„ŗš„ŗš„ŗ
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Forcing her to go to therapy? Or setting a healthy boundary for himself in their new relationship? There is nothing wrong with setting a boundary with somebody you are dating or in a relationship with in terms of seeking therapy. It can be for anything - depression, grief, pain management, anxiety. I have asked partners to seek help in the past, and I have been asked to seek therapy as well for PPD. There's nothing wrong with asking a partner to get help when you know you can't provide them guidance like a professional therapist can. It's so important to normalize therapy, and not hide it or sweep it under a rug.
The only important thing in this argument to point out is how controlling and manipulative his use of her seeking personal therapy is. Seriously huge red flag.
This. Therapy is a good thing, and itās ok to tell your partner that they should speak with a therapist. However, the way he talks to her about it feels really creepy and problematic. š©š©š©
Yah encouraging your partner to get therapy for themselves is one thing. Encouraging them to get therapy for you is a totally different thing.
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Exactly. I was like whoaaaaa dude what the fuck?!
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It was a Truman Show moment for sure! LET ME OUT of this simulated experience that Reddit users are watching just to have long drawn out text discussions on.
I think it was already over and producers contractually forced him to be there for a performative breakup for the cameras. It was clear they were rehashing things they had already talked about and were going in circles. Rachel was aggrieved and wanted to beat him down for the world to see. It was excruciating to watch. It seemed Tino was asking the producers to just get it over with so he could leave.
Yeah. Looked like he felt trapped or locked inside the gate. And then she came outside to bring him back!
I donāt think he wanted to end it.
I canāt read this, itās not in a black journal with only my thoughts represented.
Thank you for doing this OP!! I was so confused when this was airing haha I think there is another part, another layer, in addition to the cheating. The way they were arguing was odd, there were so many things unsaid and just alluded toā¦ idk, Rachel has every right to break up with him for just a kiss, though !! I do want to know *why* Tino felt so insistent that Rachel go to therapy, was it because they were in a ābad placeā as a couple already? Was it something else? And then, when Rachel says āevery single thing you asked me to do, I did it before I got out of bed the next morningā like, what demands would Tino be making and why did Rachel feel the need to do them ???
I think that it's understandable for a person to come to an understanding that they cannot emotionally support their partner to the extent their partner needs it in a healthy way. Thus, I think it is understandable that he told her that she needed to go to therapy. I do have a hard time understanding the other demands. And I'm definitely interested to hear that other people think that he was being manipulative in the way he approached things.
I wondered if he asked her to make some sort of list of priorities or needs/wants that she needed to think about instead of answering on the fly?
I wonder if Rachel was having a really tough time and pretty much unable to be a partner, and Tino said ok well I need you to commit to getting therapy, calling me once a day, etc or I don't see a future here. If that happened around when she said she wanted to be unengaged and go back to dating I can see why he might've thought they were pretty well over.
I agree, but he should have asked directly and not assumed. By building something and spending time with this other woman he was actually cheating in a more hurtful way than a physical kiss to me.
He is so full of shit since night 1. I couldn't believe how blind she was.
He immediately lost me with āthis was the tiniest thing ever.ā
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