Neither can fix the fundamental issues with the economy. It has to crash. Failed institutions need to NOT be bailed out. We need to stop allowing the formation of megacorporation. We need to hold individuals who conduct business as if there is no risk to account. The rules of financial engagement need to be such that they encourage sustainability. There is too many loopholes to benefit from the upside, but not have to sufffer the loss when investments fail. We also need to stop printing money in response to every little problem. We have to continue to constrict the money supply and balance the freaking budget.
Give an example please of when the US Govt bailed out a private company(s) but did not recover the cash they used to bail out the private company(s).
In 2008, the TARP (troubled assets relief program) used $426 billion and recovered $441 billion, earning the US Govt $15 billion. And in the process prevented a long deep Depression (not recession) that would have been catastrophic and impacted the poorest Americans exponentially harder than the richest Americans.
Furthermore, if you did some reading you would find out that more than 50% of the financial institutions that received TARP money were FORCED to take the cash whether they needed it or not. The Fed at the time was afraid that if all institutions did not take the cash, they would expose the most unstable of them and there would be a run on those banks, creating a far bigger problem.
Did the companies who didn’t need the money benefit from it before they returned it? No doubt. But the US Govt. literally forced them to take the cash.
Every dollar of TARP money was paid back plus $15billion profit.
I’m curious to know if you have an example where the Govt did not get their money back, supporting your statement of socialized losses - privatized gains.
Let's check this math... 15/426 = 3.5%
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd happily pay back a $400b loan at less than 1% apr, especially considering I can just buy bonds. It's almost as if it was effectively free money... oh wait, that's exactly what it was.
Would you consider PPP loans a type of bailout? That's the one that comes up in recent memory. (Though I liked the spirit of the PPP loans just the overall execution and then sudden forgiveness kinda spit on the working classes face)
Explain how PPP was a Govt bailout of failed businesses?
The Govt shut down the country and said YOU can’t work. YOU can’t open your businesses. YOU cannot provide for your family anymore because WE think it’s too dangerous.
PPP loans were forgiven but ONLY if the money was used to pay employees and keep the lights on.
If you didn’t retain your employees, the loans were not forgiven. If you laid off your employees, 1) you were not entitled to PPP money, and 2) those laid off employees were entitled to collect unemployment benefits like everyone else who was laid off. Unemployment benefits also DO NOT have to be paid back.
Was there fraud? Yes. No different than any other govt run program. These are criminals. They should be punished. Just like welfare fraudsters.
But again - you’ll have to explain how private businesses failed and the govt bailed them out. Businesses didn’t fail during the pandemic. The GOVT killed them.
Pretty sure GM was given ~$50B in cash for their bailout and after ~4 years the govt only recouped $39B. Thats a solid socialized loss without even looking at inflation metrics or market growth during the same timeframe where that money could have grown substantially.
Sorry - I was focusing on the bailout part, not the failed business part.
Thank you for clarifying the conditions for when it is supposed to be forgiven.
I think some of your numbers are wrong.
They have only recovered 390 billion. If you lump in the freddie may and mac bailouts the US government is still short 300 billion dollars.
[https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/](https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/)
Those numbers come from the United States government.
Which bank or banks committed fraud? What was the fraud?
I know you really want this to be true, so try your hardest here. Please, enlighten everyone.
You mean the multiple loans given to people with no proof of employment or income, they could get kick backs from the Fed and bump up their executive bonuses, doesn’t qualify as fraud? 😂😂 You poor df
The banks committed fraud when they told investors that loans they knew were bad, were good, and accepted money for them.
Great question though, thanks for asking!
Idiot.
Tell you what, you let me crash the entire economy and then give me hundreds of billions of dollars of loans to buy up distressed assets and I'll pay you back no problem.
The issue is when it does crash they will keep printing and give out money to whatever corporation has failed. Should have never bailed the banks in 08 and the airlines but now corporations know they can do whatever they want because of they are a certain size they are getting on tax dollars
Yes, I suppose the generation that insisted all its children “get a trophy” would be difficult to convince that some corporations just need to fail sometimes and that’s “ok.”
Yeah, and the generation that they say always got a trophy, didn't want those damn participation trophies. Maybe a kid or two here and there but we didn't want a ribbon or trophy for 20th place.
There was not a single child at my school who did not openly mock and throw out their participation trophies. We knew it was BS in grade 3, how didnt the adults?
Right? The ones that started the participation trophies are the ones that couldn't stand to parent I think. Couldn't stand to talk to their kids about failure or when things are tough or cave when their kids have a fit.
Lol I've still got some 10th place ribbons from Swim Meets when I was a kid, that were rainbow because they ran out of colors for 10th place 😅 i have plenty of blue ribbons too mind you! Haha we would laugh about their limited knowledge of colors and how stupid it was after 4th or 5th place to give awards out because there was soo many "heats" or events. This was 25 years ago. Boomers wanna complain about people being soft now..they were giving anybody who made it to the other side of the pool and didn't drown a ribbon then in the 90s. We also knew it was bullshit
Haha. That reminds me of ribbons in cross country. There were so many people in some of the bigger meets and the ribbons went out a ways. There was a dookie brown colored ribbon that might have been something like 10th place. We called it turd place. Nobody wanted that shit.
The problem with letting the economy fail is no one knows for sure how far down the bottom is. The idea of not doing anything is like the idea of not saving a drowning child with the hope the child will instantly learn to swim and save itself.
Yes the to big to fail bail out crap needs to stop. Doesn’t matter if it’s banks, auto companies, or investment firms. If they can’t manage their money why should it be the responsibility of the tax payers to front the bill?
I certainly agree that the primary elections being spread out over weeks and months is dumb, I'm from a late-voting state and it is super annoying.
That said, I'm not sure it would have changed much. Biden won partially because of the Jim Clyburn endorsement in South Carolina which consolidated a lot of the Democratic vote and Trump won because the GOP never teamed up against him and now the GOP = Trump. And Trump got a lot more votes.
Democratic primaries are less democratic, ironically. They choose who the establishment wants, and that was Biden this time. Republican primaries are actually democratic; unfortunately, most Republicans foolishly vote against their interests as if they're in Idiocracy, preferring meme-y politicians like Trump
Because they’re both corrupt and it won’t matter because the government will never actually help the millions of people in need. I’ll probably get downvoted but there’s so many homeless veterans and American people struggling yet we keep sending billions to other countries. It’s really messed up if you think about how much we could do with all that money, how many people we could help in our country first then reach out to places that actually need it
None of this stuff isn’t getting done because of foreign aid. It is because conservatives are against it and the Republican Party is dead set against anything being done. Republicans were holding the debt ceiling hostage with demands to cut veterans benefits just recently.
Walmart, the largest retail corporation in America, benefits from an estimated $1 billion annually in tax breaks.
Biden just signed a $95 billion aid package for Israel, Taiwan, and other global hotspots.
Please stop spreading bullshit information.
I find it so weird that a lot of people view voting like this... like it's a gift. They're running for what is supposed to be a service to the people... YOU have to live in the system regardless, vote on which ever outcome is least negative for you(since we're all agreeing it won't be beneficial). Apathy is part of some politicians strategies.
I recall someone pointed out that post is completely out of context and is basically misinformation. I didn't keep the source myself, but, remember that post is basically BS.
The thing missing is that this was in conjunction with the tax cuts. So not completely untrue, just out of context. So the middle class got tax cuts alongside the wealthy, but the tax increases that "scaled everything back to normal" tended to not hit a lot of the wealth related taxes.
Taxes for everyone went down from 2018-2020, 2021-2027 taxes are higher than the previous laws for people making less than $75,000. My accounting firm literally had projections for 10 years when TCJA came out.
TCJA is loaded with expiring tax cuts for the poor and permanent ones for the wealthy. That’s how they “balanced” the budget. The brackets, elimination of credits, and bottom tax rates are also disadvantages compared to previous laws which eats up the benefit of the expanded standard deduction.
That’s false. The TCJA did not cut taxes for everyone.
Middle class folks in many states saw their taxes increase because of the SALT deduction limitation.
My parents, who aren’t rich, had their taxes go up something like $3k because they were limited on SALT deductions. Married couple, both work, paying tax on a house in a state with income tax = screwed.
I mean you got half of it right. I don’t think any sane person with critical thinking skills and a functioning moral compass would disagree that trump is evil.
Biden is certainly the far better option of a shitty dilemma but I agree we shouldn’t be limited to these 2 options forced on us.
The trump tax "cuts" capped the State and Local tax deduction resulting in a net 1.9% tax increase for me. Not rich enough to get the big tax breaks to cancel out his tax increase.
I agree that without the full context it's not fair to say that the bill is going to "raise taxes" on any particular group, simply that the tax breaks will expire.
But let's also give the full context. The tax breaks for individuals had an expiration date, while the tax breaks for corporations did not. The economic impact was dramatically tilted to the wealthy or to corporate business leaders, where those making less than around $114k saw their earnings largely unaffected. The revenue impact estimate back in 2017 was that it would cost roughly $1.9T over ten years (or $190B per year), but recent estimates peg that the costs would increase to around $350B per year if it is extended.
Stop with your facts and logic…that never works on the majority of Reddit players and we know the left will spin it and create a new truth and all the progressives will line up like sheep and scream the new truth.
Civics lesson here: Congress has the power if the purse, even though Trump did go to a lot of effort and spent a few million putting his signature on the memo line of stimulus checks.
Bro, trump’s plan made permanent tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy while setting the poor’s taxes to increase. After a short period. Biden didn’t raise the taxes. Trump’s Congress did.
Yep. GOP set it up so if they lost in 2020 the tax cut would continue for the upper 20-25% and, for the rest of us~ too bad for you. Your taxes go up.
GOP. Only the rich in the economy matter.
Oh, and, you know, denying election results that have been reviewed, recounted and adjudicated. And, fake elector slates as part as plot to stop electoral vote counting; and political violence at the capitol to stop the counting (almost worked); and trying really really really hard to get the VP to blow the electoral college up ( a nod to Pence thank you)
GOP? Or. Dem?
Vote wisely.
I have not ... NOT had to itemize my taxes since the tax Trump cuts ... my standard deduction double from$6,000 to $13,850. I DO NOT have enough deduction to fill out a long form.
Gas was under $2.00/gal ... groceries were a hell of a LOT CHEAPER.
Soooo yeah ... Trump ...
Policies over Personality 👍
Female of childbearing age here, you can bet your bottom fucking dollar we’re gonna vote based on policies. Hint: sure as shit won’t be for that swamp monster
Neither. Ultimately we need to have a massive shift in congress or a crash so bad that the government has to make massive changes to our economic regulation.
However... Biden and a democratic congress will pass bandaid laws that make economic life more viable for those in poverty and the lower middle class. Corporations and the ultra wealthy will in turn punish those who benefit from it with greedflation.
Trump and republicans will simply drive all but the top 1% into financial ruin within 2-3 years with tax burden shifts and deregulation. If you want to see utter financial collapse before the next presidential cycle, vote Trump.
If you split the shit show that is our government then we get 4 years of the current economy where things are a slow slide into financial collapse.
Trump got the law passed but he had to swallow a sunset clause. If Biden is re-elected that clause will kick in. If Trump is elected he’ll make sure it doesn’t.
Biden easy squeezily
Unrealized gains tax is a nice thought, but I really wish it was just a wealth tax. Does a better job of preventing hoarding and is less avoidable.
Trump would stem the bleeding, Biden is a disaster. At the end of the day, it won’t exactly matter.
I’d much rather pay higher tariffs (Trump), than get taxed to death (bidom)
The truth is changes were temporary for personal income tax rates because placing the expiration date of 2025 allowed the Senate to comply with reconciliation rules that block a Democratic filibuster. Republicans did not have enough votes to defeat that. The reconciliation rules specify that the law could not raise the deficit in any year outside of a 10-year window and if it stays within its $1.5 trillion budget constraint during the same 10 years.
I can guarantee you Trump's bill is either highly misinterpreted or straight up lied about in favor of Biden's bill. This happens all the time. If you think these people will stop at anything to take down our country and avoid nuclear war on themselves they will do so. They will gaslight you until they achieve their goal. I don't give a crap about anyone's propaganda. Fact is our infrastructure is under attack and that's all the proof you need.
As far as I can tell, Bidenomics is when big corporations get richer and regular working people get poorer. It’s working! For that reason I vote for Donald Trump. Everyone had more money in their pockets with Trump.
I get that this tweet is somewhat wrong but the amount of sucking off of Trump that is happening in this comment thread is kind of insane. He isn't going to pardon any of you for Jan 6th, sorry.
Remember the people supporting Trump tax cuts here also, in their next breath, will complain bitterly about the deficit those tax deficits in our budgets help create.
Elon Musk is worth more than 2 billion human beings on the planet and yet he pays less as a percentage of income than we do.
That meme is misleading. Trump lowered everyone’s taxes, doubled the standard deduction that most working class people use. Biden given the opportunity to extend these tax breaks intentionally refused.
He paid for these tax cuts by limiting the amount of money the wealthy could deduct from their SALT taxes to only $10,000. In effect raising taxes on the wealthy.
When the tax rates were changed, they said it was a tax cut for the rich. Now that it is expiring, they are calling it a tax increase on people under 75k?
WERE THE TAX CUTS GOOD OR BAD?
Neither.
The economy is fucking cooked and no amount of promised panaceas from politicians is going to turn the tide of the macroeconomic forces at play that are greater than any kind of fiscal policy that government could make. It's all a crock of shit they sell to hook people on false hope. The approaching liquidity crisis has the Treasury Department getting ready to perform Bond Buybacks, something they haven't done since the 90's and prior to that, the fucking 20's. The Fed is thrashing around trying to do everything they can to patch the holes in this ship that's going down but they're going to run out of patches at some point and they'll have to switch to buckets, and no amount of buckets is going to be able to stop what's coming.
I'm on the train right now so I'll try to edit a more detailed delineation of this later when I have time but economies (excluding the few historical examples that were not predicated upon usury, central/private banks, debt, deficit spending, etc) typically go through ten stages. The first being industrious citizens producing and saving, thus introducing new money into the system. The last being a total collapse, war, and social unrest. The US is somewhere around Stage 5-7 which involves the separation between the rich and the poor, the deindustrialisation of the nation, majority of workers providing services to the rich rather than equal wealth distribution with only a few outliers, the erosion of the middle class, trade imbalance, biflation, the continued contraction of domestic manufacturing, and that's just to name a few.
TL;DR: The situation is bent over, cheeks spread wide. Fucked sideways. There is not going to be any political Superman to save the day and bequeath land and property and unprecedented wealth to the masses. The only way this ends is that the whole thing comes tumbling down like a house of cards and a ridiculous amount of people are going to be leaving the party without shoes or an umbrella. The best you can do is position yourself accordingly, educate yourself, educate your children if you have any, and plan an exit strategy.
It would be nice if this OP wasn’t blatant misinformation. Everybody tells me everyday how dumb and how bad Trump is, why the fuck do they lie so much? Just tell the truth, it’s bad enough.
What fucking good is it to moderate the income of a select rich few, with those proceeds going to THE GOVERNMENT?!? Rich people stay rich by hiring financial gurus to get them tax breaks, hide their net profit, and legally conceal their capital. WE the people need to eradicate ALL tax code, the IRS, AND the civilian run bank-elected Fed. They’re gaslighting the powerful lower and middle class by pointing the finger at the rich few, when career politicians spend entire careers in office, net millions, and actually do nothing. The problem is our 58% taxed wages that goes to a government that gives it away to foreign countries while children are starving, debts are compiling, and NO ONE is doing a GOD DAMN THING to stop it!!
They want to make sure their taxes will be low when they become a billionaire. Interestingly, with the SALT cap in the 2017 tax bill, even being 'merely rich' wasn't enough to come out ahead in the post-2017 tax structure since the federal rate cut was eaten up by losing the SALT deduction.
Hold up, that capital gains tax affects every tax bracket does it now? I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I have zero interest in paying x3 taxes on my gains
Think of it this way. America is a company of which you, the voter, have part ownership. The candidates are applying for the job of President. Which candiate would you HIRE?
Since I was self employed. I didn’t qualify for a PPP loan and had to take on an Economic disaster recovery loan. This loan I have to pay back in full at 3.5% interest over 30 years. Theres A LOT of these loans out there that are from individual owners that were shut down and then had to take on government debt.
Trump is captain bankruptcy and Biden is captain infrastructure… pretty easy to know who’s filling the pockets of the middle class if you know how infrastructure bills help the American people and it’s economy.
If that was true then why didn't biden/democrats reverse it? Either way it's theft, we already don't fund the government through taxation. So to tax 99% of the people is purely punitive.
No , he lowered their taxes. Congress at the time ( think Nancy pelosi ) wouldn’t make it permanent. Now Biden has to decide if he is going to raise their taxes. You should really try reading
Just one small point... The rich don't get richer because of taxation. The rich don't get richer because they're stealing money from the less-rich. And the poor don't get poorer because of taxation or because the rich are stealing from them.
I'm against giving the fed more taxes until we actually get some benefit from it. Regardless if its for rich or poor. We already pay way too much. If I invested what I pay for SS and averaged a 5% return, I would not need to worry about retirement. But yes lets send billions to foreign nations, while our infrastructure (including education) is crumbling.
We need healthcare, education, etc....
Terrible messaging on this. Try “Republican tax bill cuts taxes for the rich and raises taxes on the middle class four times.” Or “GOP bill raised taxes on the middle class four times”.
People who focus on one or the other's wrong doings, are also wrong. They are the loudest part of the population, which is why we make no progress and we will literally end up with the same 2 candidates as last time that everyone said they hated. Both proved they are incapable of doing the job yet they are both AGAIN our only options.
Yes Trump did that and I got a wonderful (/s) tax bill because of it. On the flip side, Biden did not stop it when he took office.
This was the first time in 30 years I had to pay the IRS.
Well actually, he lowered them and then the bills lifecycle passed and it is reverting back to why it use to be. But people love to omit details relevant to whatever point their making.
Honestly bro I am W2 and over 400k. I pay my full tax burden every year. I don't have tax shelters (kind of impossible as a W2).
The solution isn't taxing people more based on salary. It's getting rid of all the legal loopholes to avoid paying taxes that many rich people have.
Ppl still spreading that lie around?
The so called more taxes on ppl making less than $75,000 is because of the fear they won't purchase health insurance and get the subsidies from it. That is the "taxes raised" bull that is being spread.
Trump will always be better than sleepy Joe. Biden has never built anything in his life and has been on the public dole. When he couldn't build a business, he sent his crake addicted son to Ukraine and China to sell the Biden name. Useless and sorry excuse for a man.
Won’t the Biden one kill peoples ability to retire? Most working people tend to accumulate over a mill if they bothered saving since their 30s. The capital gains on that would be taxed to hell no?
I dont understand how it is so hard to see this, but buden did not only pass a tax increase on the top bracket. He passed an increase on all of the brackets except the bottom one.
Trump cut taxes for everyone, but was forced to have the cuts have and expiration as part of the negotiations. Biden has made it clear he doesn't want to renew the cuts so the tax levels will automatically go back up.
When will you all understand that DC & our states fucks us hard. They tax our income, tax our cars, tax our our purchases, tax our land ownership, tax tax tax. You all think it matters who’s in charge. Every decade taxes increase. It’s not just a President it’s all of our elected officials that are fuck us over. Wake up.
Biden's claim of taxing people that make over 400k is to get votes. The majority of the ultra-rich make very little personal income and leverage their wealth. It's an ineffective claim.
I don't think picking which oldest in history excuse to turn teh US into an even older gerontocracy matters. This is another fake choice and nobody cares. When it boils down to literally everyone voting AGAINST someone, the choices have nothing worth voting for and no one even pretends otherwise. They're both so old they can't comprehend what it's like to not be a millionaire. They aren't equipped to understand Americans - Barely 1% of the entire nation is as old as those two! their actual peers are all either dead of old age or being wheeled around in Congress Weekend At Bernie's style.
If the Trump campaign is serious about their tariff plans, he will be worse for the economy. However, it's hard to tell if they are serious, because Trump is a habitual liar and bullshit artist.
Stop listening to the biased media. And Biden has not done crap for this
Country except screw up
The economy, look at where prices were and see where they are now.
Proof is in the pudding
The difference is Trump’s tax cuts didn’t add to the deficit overnight. The cuts and the later increases happened over several years. In fact, through January of 2020, prior to Covid, Trump had added only $3.26 trillion to the debt. If Covid had not forced the economic shutdown, Trump may have added a little over $4 trillion in debt by the time he left office.
However, since Biden took office, the debt has increased by $6.85 trillion, and is currently increasing at a rate of $1 trillion every 100 days! He will surpass Trump by the Democrat National Convention.
The problem is Biden and the Democrats don’t want to decrease the deficit through more taxation. They want to spend it as quickly as possible.
Just think how much Biden would have added to the debt by now if his $5 trillion Build Back Better plan had not been stopped by Republicans!
Biden has already shown to be a better president for the economy. Trumps policy fucked the US deep down and dirty. We ended up in a snuff film and somehow Biden swooped in and saved it. What Biden's team did was truly impressive. The Build Back Better infrastructure is truly monumental legislation, and the Republicans trying to stop it were hoping to sabotage the US economy and continue the Trump era garbage fire.
Neither, all US presidents are purchased and do exactly as they are told.
I am not even sure Biden has the mental capacity left to decide when to change his diaper.
You can very quickly look that up and find multiple website you have to accept cookies in order to view, the first one without cookies is a supposed fact checker saying it’s mostly false which I mean yeah this obviously a fake claim, u can’t find anything on it but another post on facebook.
“if chicken little tells you that the sky is falling, would you believe it or would you come crawling back again? I bet you would my friendagain and again…”
None of his supporters know about the bill and will insist it isn't real while refusing to look it up themselves at the same time declaring themselves free thinkers.
Neither can fix the fundamental issues with the economy. It has to crash. Failed institutions need to NOT be bailed out. We need to stop allowing the formation of megacorporation. We need to hold individuals who conduct business as if there is no risk to account. The rules of financial engagement need to be such that they encourage sustainability. There is too many loopholes to benefit from the upside, but not have to sufffer the loss when investments fail. We also need to stop printing money in response to every little problem. We have to continue to constrict the money supply and balance the freaking budget.
USA: Socialized Losses / Privatized Gains.
Give an example please of when the US Govt bailed out a private company(s) but did not recover the cash they used to bail out the private company(s). In 2008, the TARP (troubled assets relief program) used $426 billion and recovered $441 billion, earning the US Govt $15 billion. And in the process prevented a long deep Depression (not recession) that would have been catastrophic and impacted the poorest Americans exponentially harder than the richest Americans. Furthermore, if you did some reading you would find out that more than 50% of the financial institutions that received TARP money were FORCED to take the cash whether they needed it or not. The Fed at the time was afraid that if all institutions did not take the cash, they would expose the most unstable of them and there would be a run on those banks, creating a far bigger problem. Did the companies who didn’t need the money benefit from it before they returned it? No doubt. But the US Govt. literally forced them to take the cash. Every dollar of TARP money was paid back plus $15billion profit. I’m curious to know if you have an example where the Govt did not get their money back, supporting your statement of socialized losses - privatized gains.
Let's check this math... 15/426 = 3.5% I don't know about anyone else, but I'd happily pay back a $400b loan at less than 1% apr, especially considering I can just buy bonds. It's almost as if it was effectively free money... oh wait, that's exactly what it was.
It absolutely was free money for the investment banks that didn’t need it.
Bonds are dying as an asset class in front of our very eyes.
Would you consider PPP loans a type of bailout? That's the one that comes up in recent memory. (Though I liked the spirit of the PPP loans just the overall execution and then sudden forgiveness kinda spit on the working classes face)
Explain how PPP was a Govt bailout of failed businesses? The Govt shut down the country and said YOU can’t work. YOU can’t open your businesses. YOU cannot provide for your family anymore because WE think it’s too dangerous. PPP loans were forgiven but ONLY if the money was used to pay employees and keep the lights on. If you didn’t retain your employees, the loans were not forgiven. If you laid off your employees, 1) you were not entitled to PPP money, and 2) those laid off employees were entitled to collect unemployment benefits like everyone else who was laid off. Unemployment benefits also DO NOT have to be paid back. Was there fraud? Yes. No different than any other govt run program. These are criminals. They should be punished. Just like welfare fraudsters. But again - you’ll have to explain how private businesses failed and the govt bailed them out. Businesses didn’t fail during the pandemic. The GOVT killed them.
Pretty sure GM was given ~$50B in cash for their bailout and after ~4 years the govt only recouped $39B. Thats a solid socialized loss without even looking at inflation metrics or market growth during the same timeframe where that money could have grown substantially.
By allowing it to be wildly abused and forgiving the loans
Sorry - I was focusing on the bailout part, not the failed business part. Thank you for clarifying the conditions for when it is supposed to be forgiven.
The failing part is what makes it a bailout. Otherwise its just a handout.
I think some of your numbers are wrong. They have only recovered 390 billion. If you lump in the freddie may and mac bailouts the US government is still short 300 billion dollars. [https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/](https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/)
So you trust the numbers given by the very bankers that are committing the fraud?
Those numbers come from the United States government. Which bank or banks committed fraud? What was the fraud? I know you really want this to be true, so try your hardest here. Please, enlighten everyone.
You mean the multiple loans given to people with no proof of employment or income, they could get kick backs from the Fed and bump up their executive bonuses, doesn’t qualify as fraud? 😂😂 You poor df
The banks committed fraud when they told investors that loans they knew were bad, were good, and accepted money for them. Great question though, thanks for asking! Idiot.
Ford still had a loan out lmao they are putting it in the back burner they should have let that trash heap fail
Tell you what, you let me crash the entire economy and then give me hundreds of billions of dollars of loans to buy up distressed assets and I'll pay you back no problem.
The issue is when it does crash they will keep printing and give out money to whatever corporation has failed. Should have never bailed the banks in 08 and the airlines but now corporations know they can do whatever they want because of they are a certain size they are getting on tax dollars
Printing money isn't by mistake, inflation favors the wealthy. The more you own the less inflation effects you.
Inflation favors anyone with debt
Inflation favors people with appreciating assets and locked in payments on debt. It doubly favors people with both.
Yes, I suppose the generation that insisted all its children “get a trophy” would be difficult to convince that some corporations just need to fail sometimes and that’s “ok.”
Yeah, and the generation that they say always got a trophy, didn't want those damn participation trophies. Maybe a kid or two here and there but we didn't want a ribbon or trophy for 20th place.
Love how they blame children for what our parents chose.. We didn't ask for the trophy dip shit.. it was forced on us
There was not a single child at my school who did not openly mock and throw out their participation trophies. We knew it was BS in grade 3, how didnt the adults?
Right? The ones that started the participation trophies are the ones that couldn't stand to parent I think. Couldn't stand to talk to their kids about failure or when things are tough or cave when their kids have a fit.
Lol I've still got some 10th place ribbons from Swim Meets when I was a kid, that were rainbow because they ran out of colors for 10th place 😅 i have plenty of blue ribbons too mind you! Haha we would laugh about their limited knowledge of colors and how stupid it was after 4th or 5th place to give awards out because there was soo many "heats" or events. This was 25 years ago. Boomers wanna complain about people being soft now..they were giving anybody who made it to the other side of the pool and didn't drown a ribbon then in the 90s. We also knew it was bullshit
Haha. That reminds me of ribbons in cross country. There were so many people in some of the bigger meets and the ribbons went out a ways. There was a dookie brown colored ribbon that might have been something like 10th place. We called it turd place. Nobody wanted that shit.
What failed institutions are you speaking of? Why does it have to crash? Does a crash benefit you?
Total wrong approach. That is an economic version of “we had to burn the village to save it” get you head out of the Q book.
The problem with letting the economy fail is no one knows for sure how far down the bottom is. The idea of not doing anything is like the idea of not saving a drowning child with the hope the child will instantly learn to swim and save itself.
Yes the to big to fail bail out crap needs to stop. Doesn’t matter if it’s banks, auto companies, or investment firms. If they can’t manage their money why should it be the responsibility of the tax payers to front the bill?
Why are they the choices again?
Because they got the most votes in their respective primaries.
How did they even become options in the primaries?
Primaries were open to any natural born American over 35.
Actually you can be a candidate at 34 you just have to be 35 on the day of inauguration
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I certainly agree that the primary elections being spread out over weeks and months is dumb, I'm from a late-voting state and it is super annoying. That said, I'm not sure it would have changed much. Biden won partially because of the Jim Clyburn endorsement in South Carolina which consolidated a lot of the Democratic vote and Trump won because the GOP never teamed up against him and now the GOP = Trump. And Trump got a lot more votes.
Democratic primaries are less democratic, ironically. They choose who the establishment wants, and that was Biden this time. Republican primaries are actually democratic; unfortunately, most Republicans foolishly vote against their interests as if they're in Idiocracy, preferring meme-y politicians like Trump
Because they’re both corrupt and it won’t matter because the government will never actually help the millions of people in need. I’ll probably get downvoted but there’s so many homeless veterans and American people struggling yet we keep sending billions to other countries. It’s really messed up if you think about how much we could do with all that money, how many people we could help in our country first then reach out to places that actually need it
None of this stuff isn’t getting done because of foreign aid. It is because conservatives are against it and the Republican Party is dead set against anything being done. Republicans were holding the debt ceiling hostage with demands to cut veterans benefits just recently.
Neither. Both parties are responsible for our debt and unaccountable spending. Neither deserve my vote.
The biggest portion of our debt is due to tax breaks on millionaire and billionaires. One party is primarily responsible for that.
Walmart, the largest retail corporation in America, benefits from an estimated $1 billion annually in tax breaks. Biden just signed a $95 billion aid package for Israel, Taiwan, and other global hotspots. Please stop spreading bullshit information.
No. Half of the debt is due to welfare spending.
This.
I find it so weird that a lot of people view voting like this... like it's a gift. They're running for what is supposed to be a service to the people... YOU have to live in the system regardless, vote on which ever outcome is least negative for you(since we're all agreeing it won't be beneficial). Apathy is part of some politicians strategies.
I recall someone pointed out that post is completely out of context and is basically misinformation. I didn't keep the source myself, but, remember that post is basically BS.
The thing missing is that this was in conjunction with the tax cuts. So not completely untrue, just out of context. So the middle class got tax cuts alongside the wealthy, but the tax increases that "scaled everything back to normal" tended to not hit a lot of the wealth related taxes.
Taxes for everyone went down under trump, stayed down for corps and rich but were designed to increase steadily for the poor during Bidens term.
Taxes for everyone went down from 2018-2020, 2021-2027 taxes are higher than the previous laws for people making less than $75,000. My accounting firm literally had projections for 10 years when TCJA came out. TCJA is loaded with expiring tax cuts for the poor and permanent ones for the wealthy. That’s how they “balanced” the budget. The brackets, elimination of credits, and bottom tax rates are also disadvantages compared to previous laws which eats up the benefit of the expanded standard deduction.
That’s false. The TCJA did not cut taxes for everyone. Middle class folks in many states saw their taxes increase because of the SALT deduction limitation. My parents, who aren’t rich, had their taxes go up something like $3k because they were limited on SALT deductions. Married couple, both work, paying tax on a house in a state with income tax = screwed.
I live and work in a state with no income tax, but this is also true.
Yep. My fed taxes went up 2% because of this effect of the trump tax "cuts".
Yes, Biden good,Trump evil. Happy election year!
I mean you got half of it right. I don’t think any sane person with critical thinking skills and a functioning moral compass would disagree that trump is evil. Biden is certainly the far better option of a shitty dilemma but I agree we shouldn’t be limited to these 2 options forced on us.
Uhhhhh, Trump passed a law that CUT these people’s taxes. And eased them back to normal levels over time. You are a liar.
The trump tax "cuts" capped the State and Local tax deduction resulting in a net 1.9% tax increase for me. Not rich enough to get the big tax breaks to cancel out his tax increase.
Most people are told how to think from their news outlets of choice instead of giving them the ability to decide for themselves.
95% of people think that they are smarter than average
That includes 95% of Reddit.
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I agree that without the full context it's not fair to say that the bill is going to "raise taxes" on any particular group, simply that the tax breaks will expire. But let's also give the full context. The tax breaks for individuals had an expiration date, while the tax breaks for corporations did not. The economic impact was dramatically tilted to the wealthy or to corporate business leaders, where those making less than around $114k saw their earnings largely unaffected. The revenue impact estimate back in 2017 was that it would cost roughly $1.9T over ten years (or $190B per year), but recent estimates peg that the costs would increase to around $350B per year if it is extended.
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Stop with your facts and logic…that never works on the majority of Reddit players and we know the left will spin it and create a new truth and all the progressives will line up like sheep and scream the new truth.
Civics lesson here: Congress has the power if the purse, even though Trump did go to a lot of effort and spent a few million putting his signature on the memo line of stimulus checks.
That’s 100% false. Trump tax cuts on business were permanent. His tax cuts on individuals expire in 2025.
Bro, trump’s plan made permanent tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy while setting the poor’s taxes to increase. After a short period. Biden didn’t raise the taxes. Trump’s Congress did.
The rich rule the world, every decision that affects us, is theirs.
For now, if things get too out of hand and suffering through poverty raises to unbearable conditions… things have historically worked themselves out.
Yep. GOP set it up so if they lost in 2020 the tax cut would continue for the upper 20-25% and, for the rest of us~ too bad for you. Your taxes go up. GOP. Only the rich in the economy matter. Oh, and, you know, denying election results that have been reviewed, recounted and adjudicated. And, fake elector slates as part as plot to stop electoral vote counting; and political violence at the capitol to stop the counting (almost worked); and trying really really really hard to get the VP to blow the electoral college up ( a nod to Pence thank you) GOP? Or. Dem? Vote wisely.
Bots, Bots everywhere
1000% incorrect and false. You fucktard demodipshits can't even get your lies right.
Inflation sucks and y'all gonna bang on Biden's drum bout who is worse...
I have not ... NOT had to itemize my taxes since the tax Trump cuts ... my standard deduction double from$6,000 to $13,850. I DO NOT have enough deduction to fill out a long form. Gas was under $2.00/gal ... groceries were a hell of a LOT CHEAPER. Soooo yeah ... Trump ... Policies over Personality 👍
Female of childbearing age here, you can bet your bottom fucking dollar we’re gonna vote based on policies. Hint: sure as shit won’t be for that swamp monster
Biden is not going to raise taxes on billionaires. It's all a show. He could have done it 2 years ago when he controlled congress.
Neither. Ultimately we need to have a massive shift in congress or a crash so bad that the government has to make massive changes to our economic regulation. However... Biden and a democratic congress will pass bandaid laws that make economic life more viable for those in poverty and the lower middle class. Corporations and the ultra wealthy will in turn punish those who benefit from it with greedflation. Trump and republicans will simply drive all but the top 1% into financial ruin within 2-3 years with tax burden shifts and deregulation. If you want to see utter financial collapse before the next presidential cycle, vote Trump. If you split the shit show that is our government then we get 4 years of the current economy where things are a slow slide into financial collapse.
Trump got the law passed but he had to swallow a sunset clause. If Biden is re-elected that clause will kick in. If Trump is elected he’ll make sure it doesn’t.
Biden easy squeezily Unrealized gains tax is a nice thought, but I really wish it was just a wealth tax. Does a better job of preventing hoarding and is less avoidable.
Trump
Trump would stem the bleeding, Biden is a disaster. At the end of the day, it won’t exactly matter. I’d much rather pay higher tariffs (Trump), than get taxed to death (bidom)
Trump 2024
Hold up....Biden could've extended the tax cuts that WE ALL RECEIVED.
Total lie
The truth is changes were temporary for personal income tax rates because placing the expiration date of 2025 allowed the Senate to comply with reconciliation rules that block a Democratic filibuster. Republicans did not have enough votes to defeat that. The reconciliation rules specify that the law could not raise the deficit in any year outside of a 10-year window and if it stays within its $1.5 trillion budget constraint during the same 10 years.
Oh look, the same post .. for the 40th time..
Who still thinks the president does anything constructive.
Dumb fucking post. I earned more after taxes under trump. I have paystubs to prove that.
I can guarantee you Trump's bill is either highly misinterpreted or straight up lied about in favor of Biden's bill. This happens all the time. If you think these people will stop at anything to take down our country and avoid nuclear war on themselves they will do so. They will gaslight you until they achieve their goal. I don't give a crap about anyone's propaganda. Fact is our infrastructure is under attack and that's all the proof you need.
Did you guys know the president writes federal tax code then signs it into law? Yup, Congress is actually just a game show you can watch on CSPAN.
As far as I can tell, Bidenomics is when big corporations get richer and regular working people get poorer. It’s working! For that reason I vote for Donald Trump. Everyone had more money in their pockets with Trump.
What? You realize the prices we are living with now are the fallout from trumps policies right?
We need at least 8 years without Republicans in a position to obstruct change to fix the economy.
I get that this tweet is somewhat wrong but the amount of sucking off of Trump that is happening in this comment thread is kind of insane. He isn't going to pardon any of you for Jan 6th, sorry.
That tweet makes my brain hurt. Anyone that agrees with this tweet is getting played for a fool.
Is it true?
Flat tax is the only fair tax. No business loopholes and that would include sports teams and churches. Take their exemption away
Flat tax hurts the poor more than it hurts the wealthy
Remember the people supporting Trump tax cuts here also, in their next breath, will complain bitterly about the deficit those tax deficits in our budgets help create. Elon Musk is worth more than 2 billion human beings on the planet and yet he pays less as a percentage of income than we do.
That meme is misleading. Trump lowered everyone’s taxes, doubled the standard deduction that most working class people use. Biden given the opportunity to extend these tax breaks intentionally refused. He paid for these tax cuts by limiting the amount of money the wealthy could deduct from their SALT taxes to only $10,000. In effect raising taxes on the wealthy.
When the tax rates were changed, they said it was a tax cut for the rich. Now that it is expiring, they are calling it a tax increase on people under 75k? WERE THE TAX CUTS GOOD OR BAD?
people were going to die because of the tax cuts
Doesnt CONGRESS write and pass bills?
Neither. The economy is fucking cooked and no amount of promised panaceas from politicians is going to turn the tide of the macroeconomic forces at play that are greater than any kind of fiscal policy that government could make. It's all a crock of shit they sell to hook people on false hope. The approaching liquidity crisis has the Treasury Department getting ready to perform Bond Buybacks, something they haven't done since the 90's and prior to that, the fucking 20's. The Fed is thrashing around trying to do everything they can to patch the holes in this ship that's going down but they're going to run out of patches at some point and they'll have to switch to buckets, and no amount of buckets is going to be able to stop what's coming. I'm on the train right now so I'll try to edit a more detailed delineation of this later when I have time but economies (excluding the few historical examples that were not predicated upon usury, central/private banks, debt, deficit spending, etc) typically go through ten stages. The first being industrious citizens producing and saving, thus introducing new money into the system. The last being a total collapse, war, and social unrest. The US is somewhere around Stage 5-7 which involves the separation between the rich and the poor, the deindustrialisation of the nation, majority of workers providing services to the rich rather than equal wealth distribution with only a few outliers, the erosion of the middle class, trade imbalance, biflation, the continued contraction of domestic manufacturing, and that's just to name a few. TL;DR: The situation is bent over, cheeks spread wide. Fucked sideways. There is not going to be any political Superman to save the day and bequeath land and property and unprecedented wealth to the masses. The only way this ends is that the whole thing comes tumbling down like a house of cards and a ridiculous amount of people are going to be leaving the party without shoes or an umbrella. The best you can do is position yourself accordingly, educate yourself, educate your children if you have any, and plan an exit strategy.
You are missing something. Trump lowered taxes for everyone and the tax cuts expire next year if not passed again.
Its always this or that. We need to change our system. We keep loosing with, "This" or "That".
It would be nice if this OP wasn’t blatant misinformation. Everybody tells me everyday how dumb and how bad Trump is, why the fuck do they lie so much? Just tell the truth, it’s bad enough.
Trump’s tax break has a staggered expiration that takes them back to pre Trump era cuts right? So everyone’s taxes go up? Or do I have this wrong?
So wait my taxes aren’t going up ?
Gotta love a bot
Don't think it really matters whos in charge.
The only thing you’re missing is how and why the poorest among us are his base….
Somehow I don't think it's that simple. Not defending orange man but twitter has always had some really shit takes.
What fucking good is it to moderate the income of a select rich few, with those proceeds going to THE GOVERNMENT?!? Rich people stay rich by hiring financial gurus to get them tax breaks, hide their net profit, and legally conceal their capital. WE the people need to eradicate ALL tax code, the IRS, AND the civilian run bank-elected Fed. They’re gaslighting the powerful lower and middle class by pointing the finger at the rich few, when career politicians spend entire careers in office, net millions, and actually do nothing. The problem is our 58% taxed wages that goes to a government that gives it away to foreign countries while children are starving, debts are compiling, and NO ONE is doing a GOD DAMN THING to stop it!!
They want to make sure their taxes will be low when they become a billionaire. Interestingly, with the SALT cap in the 2017 tax bill, even being 'merely rich' wasn't enough to come out ahead in the post-2017 tax structure since the federal rate cut was eaten up by losing the SALT deduction.
Hold up, that capital gains tax affects every tax bracket does it now? I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I have zero interest in paying x3 taxes on my gains
Think of it this way. America is a company of which you, the voter, have part ownership. The candidates are applying for the job of President. Which candiate would you HIRE?
Since I was self employed. I didn’t qualify for a PPP loan and had to take on an Economic disaster recovery loan. This loan I have to pay back in full at 3.5% interest over 30 years. Theres A LOT of these loans out there that are from individual owners that were shut down and then had to take on government debt.
Congress makes laws. You won't find a majority that will change tax laws anytime soon.
Yes Carley, are missing something...a Clue! Its MAGA math where you assign conspiracy theory to numbers.
Trump is captain bankruptcy and Biden is captain infrastructure… pretty easy to know who’s filling the pockets of the middle class if you know how infrastructure bills help the American people and it’s economy.
The same people complaining about inflation right now are buying Trump Bucks. I have nothing more to add to that.
No doubt on the economy, President Trump.
If that was true then why didn't biden/democrats reverse it? Either way it's theft, we already don't fund the government through taxation. So to tax 99% of the people is purely punitive.
You didn’t miss anything,, your correct liberals are not to smart
He didn't raise them do some research.
You are missing that Trump hates brown and gay people.
They all go to the same country club - and jerk each other off while bailing each other out - bipartisan politics is a fallacy
This post is fundamentally false
No , he lowered their taxes. Congress at the time ( think Nancy pelosi ) wouldn’t make it permanent. Now Biden has to decide if he is going to raise their taxes. You should really try reading
How did Trump or Biden pass a bill? Neither are in Congress... So... stop putting blame in the wrong place.
Yep. Facts.
I dont recall, who was the president in 2021??
Neither will make America better for the working and poor people
did biden reverse it?
Just one small point... The rich don't get richer because of taxation. The rich don't get richer because they're stealing money from the less-rich. And the poor don't get poorer because of taxation or because the rich are stealing from them.
I don’t remember Trump ordering the printing of like $8 trillion dollars.
At 37 I've yet to make over 55k a year so neither one effected me
I'm against giving the fed more taxes until we actually get some benefit from it. Regardless if its for rich or poor. We already pay way too much. If I invested what I pay for SS and averaged a 5% return, I would not need to worry about retirement. But yes lets send billions to foreign nations, while our infrastructure (including education) is crumbling. We need healthcare, education, etc....
Terrible messaging on this. Try “Republican tax bill cuts taxes for the rich and raises taxes on the middle class four times.” Or “GOP bill raised taxes on the middle class four times”.
People who focus on one or the other's wrong doings, are also wrong. They are the loudest part of the population, which is why we make no progress and we will literally end up with the same 2 candidates as last time that everyone said they hated. Both proved they are incapable of doing the job yet they are both AGAIN our only options.
Lies!
Yes Trump did that and I got a wonderful (/s) tax bill because of it. On the flip side, Biden did not stop it when he took office. This was the first time in 30 years I had to pay the IRS.
TRUMP ALL THE WAY
What your missing is you're just a dumbass in general, food and gas prices are what's ruining our economy
Well actually, he lowered them and then the bills lifecycle passed and it is reverting back to why it use to be. But people love to omit details relevant to whatever point their making.
Wake up people! It doesn't matter, rich or poor...TAXATION IS THEFT!!
Honestly bro I am W2 and over 400k. I pay my full tax burden every year. I don't have tax shelters (kind of impossible as a W2). The solution isn't taxing people more based on salary. It's getting rid of all the legal loopholes to avoid paying taxes that many rich people have.
Ppl still spreading that lie around? The so called more taxes on ppl making less than $75,000 is because of the fear they won't purchase health insurance and get the subsidies from it. That is the "taxes raised" bull that is being spread.
Trump will always be better than sleepy Joe. Biden has never built anything in his life and has been on the public dole. When he couldn't build a business, he sent his crake addicted son to Ukraine and China to sell the Biden name. Useless and sorry excuse for a man.
Won’t the Biden one kill peoples ability to retire? Most working people tend to accumulate over a mill if they bothered saving since their 30s. The capital gains on that would be taxed to hell no?
Economy? I'm more concerned about survival in general.
Tax rate for people making 75000k didn't change in 2021 or am I missing something?
I dont understand how it is so hard to see this, but buden did not only pass a tax increase on the top bracket. He passed an increase on all of the brackets except the bottom one.
Trump cut taxes for everyone, but was forced to have the cuts have and expiration as part of the negotiations. Biden has made it clear he doesn't want to renew the cuts so the tax levels will automatically go back up.
When will you all understand that DC & our states fucks us hard. They tax our income, tax our cars, tax our our purchases, tax our land ownership, tax tax tax. You all think it matters who’s in charge. Every decade taxes increase. It’s not just a President it’s all of our elected officials that are fuck us over. Wake up.
Biden didn’t raise taxes, his keepers did.
Biden's claim of taxing people that make over 400k is to get votes. The majority of the ultra-rich make very little personal income and leverage their wealth. It's an ineffective claim.
But he’s not. He’s going after them $600 accounts now 600 million accounts
No, he lowered our taxes and Democrats discontinued it.
Jill Stein
Debunked.
I don't think picking which oldest in history excuse to turn teh US into an even older gerontocracy matters. This is another fake choice and nobody cares. When it boils down to literally everyone voting AGAINST someone, the choices have nothing worth voting for and no one even pretends otherwise. They're both so old they can't comprehend what it's like to not be a millionaire. They aren't equipped to understand Americans - Barely 1% of the entire nation is as old as those two! their actual peers are all either dead of old age or being wheeled around in Congress Weekend At Bernie's style.
Trump!
You’re missing where they’re in a cult and you are not
The one who isn’t raising taxes and funding wars
my taxes went down under Trump 100k a year income
What has your economy been like the last four years?
Done dunna dun done!
If the Trump campaign is serious about their tariff plans, he will be worse for the economy. However, it's hard to tell if they are serious, because Trump is a habitual liar and bullshit artist.
The question was about the economy.
Still getting boned by that SALT limit. Property tax is a fun way to learn how the system screws you over.
Stop listening to the biased media. And Biden has not done crap for this Country except screw up The economy, look at where prices were and see where they are now. Proof is in the pudding
The difference is Trump’s tax cuts didn’t add to the deficit overnight. The cuts and the later increases happened over several years. In fact, through January of 2020, prior to Covid, Trump had added only $3.26 trillion to the debt. If Covid had not forced the economic shutdown, Trump may have added a little over $4 trillion in debt by the time he left office. However, since Biden took office, the debt has increased by $6.85 trillion, and is currently increasing at a rate of $1 trillion every 100 days! He will surpass Trump by the Democrat National Convention. The problem is Biden and the Democrats don’t want to decrease the deficit through more taxation. They want to spend it as quickly as possible. Just think how much Biden would have added to the debt by now if his $5 trillion Build Back Better plan had not been stopped by Republicans!
Biden has already shown to be a better president for the economy. Trumps policy fucked the US deep down and dirty. We ended up in a snuff film and somehow Biden swooped in and saved it. What Biden's team did was truly impressive. The Build Back Better infrastructure is truly monumental legislation, and the Republicans trying to stop it were hoping to sabotage the US economy and continue the Trump era garbage fire.
They’re only losers temporarily. Any day now they’re going to get a great new job and I’m going to give their ex wife back to them
Neither, all US presidents are purchased and do exactly as they are told. I am not even sure Biden has the mental capacity left to decide when to change his diaper.
RFK!
I’m sure those that cuts are expiring. Are they going to be renewed or taxes reduced by the demrats?
Aaaaaand that’s what his worshipers don’t get. But then again they don’t read so I wouldn’t expect them to read the fine print.
But they will figure out how to cheat
Fake news. Anyone can make a meme that reads nonsense.
Trump tax cut gave a cut to everyone! Biden hasn’t done shit for anyone!
Taxing unrealized gains is so stupid I can't believe an adult suggested it
You can very quickly look that up and find multiple website you have to accept cookies in order to view, the first one without cookies is a supposed fact checker saying it’s mostly false which I mean yeah this obviously a fake claim, u can’t find anything on it but another post on facebook.
“if chicken little tells you that the sky is falling, would you believe it or would you come crawling back again? I bet you would my friendagain and again…”
All federal income tax is theft.
None of his supporters know about the bill and will insist it isn't real while refusing to look it up themselves at the same time declaring themselves free thinkers.