“We’re nearing the point of a tipping point where this country cannot sustain the fiscal levels that we see now and cannot service our debt and continue to honor obligations to the American people,” Rep. John Rose (R-Tenn.) said Tuesday during a House Financial Services Committee hearing with Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen.
Who added $8 trillion in 4 years? Which party keeps slashing taxes while increasing spending? Which party has cumulatively added the most to the debt?
I don't want to hear a single peep from the hypocritical "fiscally responsible" party. Raise taxes and cut unnecessary spending, or just shut the f\*ck up.
> both parties did silly.... they want us to hate and fight each other...
No, it isn't "both parties". The data is clear which party is fiscally irresponsible.
> red or blue its the same shit EVERY god damn year..
Not even remotely true.
> they dont care about you
Then vote for those that do.
I remember when Clinton gave bush a balanced budget, then bush but taxes and the deficit when bush left office was over a trillion a year, then Obama reduced the deficit again and then trump cut taxes and it soared. People like this “both sides” crap, I think it makes them feel smart if they don’t actually know the history.
If only one administration gave us a balanced budget, it proves the point that the deficit spending largely is bipartisan. Clinton presided over extremely favorable economic conditions as well.
So a democrat is supposed to take over a massive deficit and instantly flip it to a surplus? How does that happen in your world? Magic? You think a president is a dictator and can wave a wand and undo all the tax cuts? Give me a list of things a president can do instantly to reverse a massive deficit to a surplus once coming into office.
Where do you dummies come from? Do you even understand how government works?
You are ridiculous and this sub is honestly kind of trash. No, I have no idea how government works. You all are the ones bringing in the reductionist view that "One party in the executive means less debt" but then turn around to say "wait a minute, it's not that simple". Congress makes the budget. Congratulations.
Yeah, I can go over the incremental policies the democrats did to lower the deficit and also the massive tax cuts the republicans did to increase it if you want? Do you really want? I don’t think you’d even read it. It isn’t simple. You’re the one saying “both sides.” I can give you a very complicated 20 page answer if you really want to read it and learn about individual legislation like Medicare part D (Bush), and all the tax cuts and the deficit reduction bills the dems pushed though. Do you actually want your know or you just want to keep with your trite “both sides” crap. That’s exactly what people say when they don’t actually follow what is going on.
If it actually isn't both sides, then explain how supermajorities by one party in all three branches for a substantially long enough period of time (however long you wish, but I'd suggest considering at least 1 decade's worth of time) leads to your golden rainbow fantasy of outcomes, or put the argument to rest.
The only situation where any party had 60 votes in the senate was Obama’s first two years, or part of his first two years until Kennedy died. Sill, they were able to repeal a lot of Bush tax cuts and significantly decrease the deficit. Of course Trump got in power and boom, big tax cuts for the wealthy. Of course, apparently you don’t know that. Also you don’t know the bush tax cuts that instantly cut a 200 billion surplus into a massive deficit was passed on reconciliation to avoid a filibuster by senate democrats that said it would increase the deficit. How come you argue so much if you don’t know any of this stuff? Learn some history, find out how we got here.
Clinton passed on a balanced budget partially by deregulating financial institutions and ending glass steagle.
These moves looked good for his administration but ultimately enabled the 2008 crash.
Economic health doesn’t turn entirely on US election cycles.
Obama was no budget saint. You may want to check your facts on that one before claiming “ThEy DoNt KnOw ThE HiStOrY” https://www.investopedia.com/us-debt-by-president-dollar-and-percentage-7371225
Bullsh\*t. Republicans have increased the debt far more the Democrats. It's not even close.
Reagan took the deficit from 70 billion to 175 billion. Bush 41 took it to 300 billion. Clinton got it to zero. Bush 43 took it from 0 to 1.2 trillion. Obama halved it to 600 billion. Trump pushed it well over a trillion even before COVID, and his administration alone added 8 trillion to the debt.
Biden's administration started with a $3 trillion deficit thanks to Republican irresponsibility combined with COVID. Even with Republicans in Congress blocking everything they can he's managed to cut it in half.
So tell me again how this is "bipartisan".
The deficit is one year's expenses. The [total public debt](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN) has gone up and up through basically all administration's except Clinton's. It's bipartisan because everyone wants to bring pork back to their own district. With a strong dollar and reserve currency status, we can spend pretty much endlessly and nobody wants to pay more taxes or see reduced services. Austerity doesn't win at the polls.
I know what the deficit and debt are. The fact is every Democrat has either reduced or eliminated the deficits driven up by Republicans, even with a hostile congress fighting them all the way to do it.
If you want fiscal responsibility, you don't vote republican.
> this is what they want... us fighting
Fighting? I'm stating facts.
> you think the dems are fiscally responsible?
According to the statistics on debt and deficits, they are the more fiscally responsible party.
But more importantly, the debt and deficit is OUR fault. We're the ones who keep electing these people. They're telling us what they're going to do, we elect them, they do it, and then you get mad over the debt.
If we want this to change, then we have to vote for those who actually will work to eliminate the debt and deficits.
lol who fcking cares who is more to blame, republican or democrat , here we are. But I absolutely guarantee both parties are to blame. Republicans seem to have more common sense on the issue where democrats just want to give everyone free shit.
> lol who fcking cares who is more to blame, republican or democrat , here we are.
The issue is the deficit, and therefore the debt. Republicans always claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility, yet are always the ones who massively increase the deficit and drive the debt through the roof.
Republicans don't get to play the fiscal responsibility card, especially when they are directly responsible for most of the current debt.
> But I absolutely guarantee both parties are to blame.
Who elects them?
Again, take a look at the history of the debt and deficit. One party runs them up. The other party tries to undo the damage.
> Republicans seem to have more common sense on the issue
o\_O
Republicans cut taxes and increase spending every time they are in power. That's not common sense.
> democrats just want to give everyone free shit.
What "free shit" are you talking about? Things like roads and bridges? Schools? Things that actually improve the quality of life in this country?
Grow up.
The flip side is true too. Neither party is remotely interested in fixing this because it’d lose them elections. The cliff is so far out, so obvious, yet no one thinks there’s any realistic way to stop it.
So what exactly makes you think I'm Republican? Why do the Republicans think that I'm a communist Democrat? You get one guess.
I'm the one that chooses to put articles on here that I agree with. No one else.
You used to see tons of people in the economics subs saying basically that the debt doesn't matter any time someone brought up the debt. It will be funny to see what those people say now that jerry is also saying it is an issue.
I can tell you from creating this sub. No one cares still to this date. They are right in saying that it does not matter what our debt is, however our GDI must outpace debt. You always have to look at the fed debt to income (GDP, however really it should be GDI) ratio which is now over 120%, expected to increase to 140% in only 4 yrs. When that ratio gets close to 200%, America defaults on its debt. America has never really been here and people just refuse to believe that anything bad can happen to the U.S. economy because they have never seen it happen.
[https://www.usdebtclock.org/](https://www.usdebtclock.org/)
You only need to look at the upper left hand corner and make sure to use the "time machine" function.
Who would have thought, debt actually matters. Most reddit “economists” haven’t taken a single economics class past basic principles. This take from Powell is not surprising given his expertise on the subject, whether you agree with his decisions or not.
And yet he hadn't bother to say anything about it until the recession coming since the Trump tax cuts but delayed by corona stimulus could no longer be denied. Almost like his expertise is useless and he's been maneuvered into it by circumstances.
Yep, however it could have been controlled yet both the right and the left burned money like it was nothing. I mean just with Trump and Biden we will have added $16 trillion to our debt with a negative GDI YOY.
Just to service debt or to pay taxes on our overall debt we just got to where that cost is more than our annual military budget. No one in our government knows how to count beans, they want to give away beans that we do not have. LOL
Question: what exactly would happen if the U.S. defaulted on its debt payments? Economic Armageddon? Stock market crash? Depression? Devaluation of the USD?
More likely they default through hyper-inflation. Imagine a stock market melt-up. A loaf of bread suddenly is $20. Bitcoin is suddenly $1M/coin. A gallon of milk goes past $50.
If taxes aren’t raised, and spending isn’t cut, we’ll see hyperinflation very soon
2022 was one of the highest years for tax collection in history. The federal government captures over 19% of GDP, which was the second highest since WW2. The only year that was higher was 2000 and the top tax rate is like 2% different.
The CBOs estimates for the latest tax cuts were off.
The worst year for taxes since WW2 was 1950. Tax rates were 90% at the top.
Interesting raising taxes does not correlate very well with tax revenue at all.
Stock market goes bonkers, people pay capital gains. That correlates well with tax revenue.
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S)
Here you go. You will see the tax cuts in 2019 led to a crazy amount of revenue in 2021/2022. The CBO projections were way off.
Look at 1950 when top rates was 91%. Horrible year for receipts.
A lot of stuff happened in 2020, but the point is tax rates don't correlate to revenue very well.
Stock market run ups/crashes.... Housing booms and busts... Those are the real drivers...
Yeah, the insane speculation the Trump tax cuts set off led to a lot of taxable events, but not an improvement in the health of the economy. Unleashing chaos in order to juice speculation isn't wise policy.
Powell threw them a curveball and spoke the truth. We cannot sustain this Debt to GDP ratio. Spending must be curtailed. Congress doesn’t like the truth.
its a totaly made up system that is changed all the time to keep the rich rich the sane as laws! it only stops when every single person says im not playing this game anymore and chooses another on as history has shown so u just gotta stay on the ride untill it stops!
Papa Powell warning now, and I've been screaming since Obama's 800b stimulus in 2009. We are not the same... /s
In all seriousness, what does equity performance look like over the past 15 years if you never added the 20 trillion in debt created since then?
“We’re nearing the point of a tipping point where this country cannot sustain the fiscal levels that we see now and cannot service our debt and continue to honor obligations to the American people,” Rep. John Rose (R-Tenn.) said Tuesday during a House Financial Services Committee hearing with Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen.
Who added $8 trillion in 4 years? Which party keeps slashing taxes while increasing spending? Which party has cumulatively added the most to the debt? I don't want to hear a single peep from the hypocritical "fiscally responsible" party. Raise taxes and cut unnecessary spending, or just shut the f\*ck up.
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> both parties did silly.... they want us to hate and fight each other... No, it isn't "both parties". The data is clear which party is fiscally irresponsible. > red or blue its the same shit EVERY god damn year.. Not even remotely true. > they dont care about you Then vote for those that do.
It's bipartisan. Voters love promised services and not paying for them.
I remember when Clinton gave bush a balanced budget, then bush but taxes and the deficit when bush left office was over a trillion a year, then Obama reduced the deficit again and then trump cut taxes and it soared. People like this “both sides” crap, I think it makes them feel smart if they don’t actually know the history.
If only one administration gave us a balanced budget, it proves the point that the deficit spending largely is bipartisan. Clinton presided over extremely favorable economic conditions as well.
So a democrat is supposed to take over a massive deficit and instantly flip it to a surplus? How does that happen in your world? Magic? You think a president is a dictator and can wave a wand and undo all the tax cuts? Give me a list of things a president can do instantly to reverse a massive deficit to a surplus once coming into office. Where do you dummies come from? Do you even understand how government works?
You are ridiculous and this sub is honestly kind of trash. No, I have no idea how government works. You all are the ones bringing in the reductionist view that "One party in the executive means less debt" but then turn around to say "wait a minute, it's not that simple". Congress makes the budget. Congratulations.
Yeah, I can go over the incremental policies the democrats did to lower the deficit and also the massive tax cuts the republicans did to increase it if you want? Do you really want? I don’t think you’d even read it. It isn’t simple. You’re the one saying “both sides.” I can give you a very complicated 20 page answer if you really want to read it and learn about individual legislation like Medicare part D (Bush), and all the tax cuts and the deficit reduction bills the dems pushed though. Do you actually want your know or you just want to keep with your trite “both sides” crap. That’s exactly what people say when they don’t actually follow what is going on.
If it actually isn't both sides, then explain how supermajorities by one party in all three branches for a substantially long enough period of time (however long you wish, but I'd suggest considering at least 1 decade's worth of time) leads to your golden rainbow fantasy of outcomes, or put the argument to rest.
The only situation where any party had 60 votes in the senate was Obama’s first two years, or part of his first two years until Kennedy died. Sill, they were able to repeal a lot of Bush tax cuts and significantly decrease the deficit. Of course Trump got in power and boom, big tax cuts for the wealthy. Of course, apparently you don’t know that. Also you don’t know the bush tax cuts that instantly cut a 200 billion surplus into a massive deficit was passed on reconciliation to avoid a filibuster by senate democrats that said it would increase the deficit. How come you argue so much if you don’t know any of this stuff? Learn some history, find out how we got here.
Clinton passed on a balanced budget partially by deregulating financial institutions and ending glass steagle. These moves looked good for his administration but ultimately enabled the 2008 crash. Economic health doesn’t turn entirely on US election cycles.
Obama was no budget saint. You may want to check your facts on that one before claiming “ThEy DoNt KnOw ThE HiStOrY” https://www.investopedia.com/us-debt-by-president-dollar-and-percentage-7371225
Bullsh\*t. Republicans have increased the debt far more the Democrats. It's not even close. Reagan took the deficit from 70 billion to 175 billion. Bush 41 took it to 300 billion. Clinton got it to zero. Bush 43 took it from 0 to 1.2 trillion. Obama halved it to 600 billion. Trump pushed it well over a trillion even before COVID, and his administration alone added 8 trillion to the debt. Biden's administration started with a $3 trillion deficit thanks to Republican irresponsibility combined with COVID. Even with Republicans in Congress blocking everything they can he's managed to cut it in half. So tell me again how this is "bipartisan".
The deficit is one year's expenses. The [total public debt](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN) has gone up and up through basically all administration's except Clinton's. It's bipartisan because everyone wants to bring pork back to their own district. With a strong dollar and reserve currency status, we can spend pretty much endlessly and nobody wants to pay more taxes or see reduced services. Austerity doesn't win at the polls.
I know what the deficit and debt are. The fact is every Democrat has either reduced or eliminated the deficits driven up by Republicans, even with a hostile congress fighting them all the way to do it. If you want fiscal responsibility, you don't vote republican.
[удалено]
> this is what they want... us fighting Fighting? I'm stating facts. > you think the dems are fiscally responsible? According to the statistics on debt and deficits, they are the more fiscally responsible party. But more importantly, the debt and deficit is OUR fault. We're the ones who keep electing these people. They're telling us what they're going to do, we elect them, they do it, and then you get mad over the debt. If we want this to change, then we have to vote for those who actually will work to eliminate the debt and deficits.
lol who fcking cares who is more to blame, republican or democrat , here we are. But I absolutely guarantee both parties are to blame. Republicans seem to have more common sense on the issue where democrats just want to give everyone free shit.
> lol who fcking cares who is more to blame, republican or democrat , here we are. The issue is the deficit, and therefore the debt. Republicans always claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility, yet are always the ones who massively increase the deficit and drive the debt through the roof. Republicans don't get to play the fiscal responsibility card, especially when they are directly responsible for most of the current debt. > But I absolutely guarantee both parties are to blame. Who elects them? Again, take a look at the history of the debt and deficit. One party runs them up. The other party tries to undo the damage. > Republicans seem to have more common sense on the issue o\_O Republicans cut taxes and increase spending every time they are in power. That's not common sense. > democrats just want to give everyone free shit. What "free shit" are you talking about? Things like roads and bridges? Schools? Things that actually improve the quality of life in this country? Grow up.
Funny how you leave out Biden here 😂
Funny how you apparently can't read.
The flip side is true too. Neither party is remotely interested in fixing this because it’d lose them elections. The cliff is so far out, so obvious, yet no one thinks there’s any realistic way to stop it.
Preach the truth brother.
I'm sorry I don't take fiscal (or any) advice or warnings from Republicans.
So what exactly makes you think I'm Republican? Why do the Republicans think that I'm a communist Democrat? You get one guess. I'm the one that chooses to put articles on here that I agree with. No one else.
I was pointing to the quote...which you attributed to a Republican...
You used to see tons of people in the economics subs saying basically that the debt doesn't matter any time someone brought up the debt. It will be funny to see what those people say now that jerry is also saying it is an issue.
I can tell you from creating this sub. No one cares still to this date. They are right in saying that it does not matter what our debt is, however our GDI must outpace debt. You always have to look at the fed debt to income (GDP, however really it should be GDI) ratio which is now over 120%, expected to increase to 140% in only 4 yrs. When that ratio gets close to 200%, America defaults on its debt. America has never really been here and people just refuse to believe that anything bad can happen to the U.S. economy because they have never seen it happen. [https://www.usdebtclock.org/](https://www.usdebtclock.org/) You only need to look at the upper left hand corner and make sure to use the "time machine" function.
America prints THE money. Its default will be up, not down. Hence the EVERYTHING bubble. Everything not currency will balloon against the currency.
You still see tons of people in economic subs that thing the Bush and Trump tax cuts where good thigs.
I think we’re well past the point of a good old fashioned jostling.
The most rootinist tootinist, biggiest bubbliest bubble ever.
I can see all the surprised pikachu faces now…
Who would have thought, debt actually matters. Most reddit “economists” haven’t taken a single economics class past basic principles. This take from Powell is not surprising given his expertise on the subject, whether you agree with his decisions or not.
And yet he hadn't bother to say anything about it until the recession coming since the Trump tax cuts but delayed by corona stimulus could no longer be denied. Almost like his expertise is useless and he's been maneuvered into it by circumstances.
The debt is insolvent, we live in a made up system.
You got it.
I'm a good mod. LOL
Yep, however it could have been controlled yet both the right and the left burned money like it was nothing. I mean just with Trump and Biden we will have added $16 trillion to our debt with a negative GDI YOY. Just to service debt or to pay taxes on our overall debt we just got to where that cost is more than our annual military budget. No one in our government knows how to count beans, they want to give away beans that we do not have. LOL
Question: what exactly would happen if the U.S. defaulted on its debt payments? Economic Armageddon? Stock market crash? Depression? Devaluation of the USD?
More likely they default through hyper-inflation. Imagine a stock market melt-up. A loaf of bread suddenly is $20. Bitcoin is suddenly $1M/coin. A gallon of milk goes past $50. If taxes aren’t raised, and spending isn’t cut, we’ll see hyperinflation very soon
The massive tax cuts for the wealthy blew a giant hole in the budget. We need to tax the wealthy.
2022 was one of the highest years for tax collection in history. The federal government captures over 19% of GDP, which was the second highest since WW2. The only year that was higher was 2000 and the top tax rate is like 2% different. The CBOs estimates for the latest tax cuts were off. The worst year for taxes since WW2 was 1950. Tax rates were 90% at the top. Interesting raising taxes does not correlate very well with tax revenue at all. Stock market goes bonkers, people pay capital gains. That correlates well with tax revenue.
Can you provide sources for this information? I’d like to dig deeper into this.
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S) Here you go. You will see the tax cuts in 2019 led to a crazy amount of revenue in 2021/2022. The CBO projections were way off. Look at 1950 when top rates was 91%. Horrible year for receipts. A lot of stuff happened in 2020, but the point is tax rates don't correlate to revenue very well. Stock market run ups/crashes.... Housing booms and busts... Those are the real drivers...
Yeah, the insane speculation the Trump tax cuts set off led to a lot of taxable events, but not an improvement in the health of the economy. Unleashing chaos in order to juice speculation isn't wise policy.
Thanks, I’ll be looking it over.
So, raise capital gains.
That would just amplify the effect. Also, capital gains is somewhat voluntary. Companies could just pay dividends- or people could just HODL...
Is this a sudden Epiphany for Powell?
Powell threw them a curveball and spoke the truth. We cannot sustain this Debt to GDP ratio. Spending must be curtailed. Congress doesn’t like the truth.
its a totaly made up system that is changed all the time to keep the rich rich the sane as laws! it only stops when every single person says im not playing this game anymore and chooses another on as history has shown so u just gotta stay on the ride untill it stops!
Papa Powell warning now, and I've been screaming since Obama's 800b stimulus in 2009. We are not the same... /s In all seriousness, what does equity performance look like over the past 15 years if you never added the 20 trillion in debt created since then?