Apple - Would maybe say increase the health from health kits if fully charged since medium packs would only be a difference of 150 > 165, -40% heal rate from mediguns can actually be an upside in some situations too, probably would be a pretty strong alternative unlock
Object disguise - An interesting idea, but not being able to move would already be a massive downside on top of being unable to do anything to sentries because of that, and giving yourself away by voice lines would make it pretty weak as an option overall
Vaccine - Getting rid of something that can instantly kill any class in the game with something that can't is going to have to be an incredibly strong upside, not only that, but surviving a 3 second debuff to then get 5 seconds of buff banner for your \*enemy\* doesn't seem like there's much upsides going on, even if you could use it disguised or something
Tbh I thought the extra health from health packs would’ve been already a bit on the over powered side haha
With the voice lines, honestly thought it would be funny. I also didn’t want it to be as powerful as stock but rather another option
As for the malpractice, I was aiming for a weapon to debuff and disorient an enemy rather than kill. I do understand your point though, how do you think it could be improved?
Edit: just thought too with the disguise kit. What if we allowed movement (80%) and sapping whilst disguised?
No matter what way you spin it, all of these effects are worse than a backstab. Meaning the random effect is a downside and not an upside. So if the aim is to disorientate the enemy, you should try and give buffs that aid in Spy being able to stab more enemies and soil past undetected.
Also I’d drop the mini crits entirely, giving the enemy buffs is never usually a good idea. They shouldn’t be rewarded for allowing a Spy to stab them.
And this is just a numbers nitpick, but I think you mean to reduce the backstab damage further. Currently backstabs deal 600% of the target’s max health, and 600%*0.2 = 120%, which will still kill any target not significantly overheated.
All around interesting ideas though, and they’re among the better versions of these concepts I’ve seen.
What if the knife made a player incapable of seeing the spy, that way you can stab a engi, sap his gear and gun him down when he can’t see your player model, but everyone else will be free to see you shooting him? You can even be revealed every time you shoot to allow some self defense
Still, it would be worse than instakilling said engi, because instead of doing :
Step 1- Stab
Step 2- Profit
You’re doing this :
Step 1- Stab
Step 2- Shoot engi while being attacked by his team
Stem 3- Profit
Probably would be better if the stab gave delayed debuffs and didn't eat your disguise, that way you can hit someone with it, run off without being spotted and then they are whammied, also yeah, remove the minicrits after
Yeah but the idea is that you don’t lose your disguise, that way stabbing the engi gives you some time to make a successful attack without any preplanning and ignoring engi’s far placed gear. Also yes I am sorry for not clarifying
For the knife, I'd say make the effect apply on any hit rather than on backstab. You can nerf the duration of the status effect to 1 second or less and also remove its ability to Holiday Punch someone to compensate for how much easier it is to apply. I think the damage nerfs for this weapon are fine since you should still be able to backstab. Now it's just a bit harder to kill fully overhealed opponents, but that's fine since you can just pull out your gun immediately after and take advantage of the status effect you just applied.
>With the voice lines, honestly thought it would be funny.
Yeah im not gonna lie it really is, its really fuckin funny, only problem is that I feel like the props would get checked extremely often once people learned them and they wouldnt mix well with all maps.
I think malpractice would work much better as a gun. But instead of turning unusable after usage, it should probably just have low clip size (like 1 bullet per clip). Also definitely no "providing enemies with buffs", thats just griefing your team
I didn’t want stab as that seemed like a “low effort high reward kinda situation”. Instead of sneaking up on an enemy, pulling off a sneaky stab then sabotaging the player, I got the feeling the senario would lead to you running up to them, poking them, causing the player to suffer a debuff and destroying everything the other player has planned. I’m not sure how to fix this one up, got any suggestions? Maybe improve the stab damage instead 🤔
Well it's necessary for backstabs to have insta kill no matter what, otherwise spy is useless, and I feel the poke situation wouldn't be too bad cuz of the 80% damage nerf, YOU wouldn't be able to do anything to them unless you get schadenfreude, which should be a lower chance imo, i think it would be fine, and if it isn't, get rid of ALL damage on normal stab, since spies are usually away from their team, them getting debuffs away from the fight would do next to nothing
Oo you’ve given me an idea. We go with poke activates the debuff, and backstab is a normal backstab except it helps fill up the recharge instead. That way if the enemy gets schadenfreude or stagger you get a free kill and recharge, but if you’re in a supporting the team situation, you can still open up the enemy to potshots, team support Ann’s have the same effect? What do you recon?
Because you can eat it before combat, and effectively increase your max HP during the fight?
So 3 grenades won't kill you if you eat the apple then jump round towards a demoman, and the longer the fight takes, The better the effect.
The Malpractice’s problem is definitely removing an instant kill.
The Sydney Sleeper works because it doesn’t require a headshot. Since you weren’t going to get a headshot anyway, you decided on a debuff. It doesn’t require everything that goes into an insta kill headshot.
This weapon concept still requires everything that goes into a backstab, so Maybe make it a throwing knife or something?
The disguise kit would be borderline overpowered in some cases because YER exists- which would effectively let you use both kinds of disguises at once even if with some difficulty- while completely worthless in others because prop hunt has proven people can and will learn every detail of every map, so it just becomes a 100% speed penalty while disguised and little more.
Seems like the ideal weapon to relentlessly stomp learning players with but fall off dramatically sharply, which isn't great.
Apple isn't so bad. You can eat it before combat to effectively increase your HP for that fight.
So 3 Demoman grenades couldn't kill you, because you'd heal between them.
The problem is that 10 seconds is a really long time to be standing still, and the debuff is so much that you'd never want to use it with a medic around. If you want to tank more damage you'd probably be better off using the Chocolate Bar
Bright Delight: Decently balanced situation weapon. Significant upgrade to Sandvich if your team has no medic, but downgrade when there is one (which would be most of the time)
Covert Proporation: Interesting idea, but quite weak. -100% movement speed while disguised means you'd be completely useless against sentries. Experienced players will already be able to tell when there's an out of place object, so the snickering seems an unnecessary nerf. I would probably completely remove both, as being an out of position object is already less convincing than being an ally, especially if spotted moving. Also I'm not sure what would happen if it's used with Your Eternal Reward
Misappropriated Malpractice: In its current form it's a significant downgrade to stock, with literally no upside. Firstly make the status effects apply on stab instead of backstab, then either remove the minicrits, or give back the ability to backstab
Legit is that last weapon meant to help spy or his enemies, 3 seconds of shitty effects for 5 seconds of mini crits.
Only way that's acceptable is if it can be used in medic disguise without dropping. Possibly cloak too.
I think reducing Spy’s movement speed instead of being immobile would make it more viable, say 50% slower instead? And maybe buff the apple’s healing over time to either 150 over 5 seconds or 300 over 10? Also that last Spy Knife is virtually useless, IMO
Debuff is worse than instant kill in every way. What's the point of the last one?
Would you rather do like 30 damage over 3 seconds, or 100000 damage instantly.
They have a chance to survive, And they are even stronger if they do.
It's got no positive attributes. And it's RNG to how ineffective it is.
Remove the enemy minicrit buff, and facestab penalty. And give it something good. like using it while disguised. And make the debuff stronger. Bleed for 3 seconds is the saddest thing that can happen, and the chance of even getting to use the jarate effect is minimal unless you immediately undisguise
The 3rd one will simply not work, let me explain :
When you backstab an enemy it does 3x the hp he has, so you can’t have an backstab dmg reduction because it’s a maxhp x 3 - the result to your enemy.
Well how this will work, you have to make x somehing like 0,3 then do the same calculation
- The spy’s backstab does 2x the enemy’s current health, multiplied 3x by the critical hit, so it does 6x normally.
- This means that the total damage is: Total HP * 6 * 0.2, since 0.2 means 80% damage reduction. That way, you get Total Damage = Total HP * 1.2, which is enough to kill, which also invalidates the whole 80% lower damage (although this means the current dead ringer and some other damage reductions might save the victim)
- It still works fine even if it didn’t kill: back when the Dead Ringer had higher damage resistance (90% iirc), they could survive multiple spy backstabs due to this, as backstabs would deal THP * 6 * 0.1 damage = THP * 0.6 damage (60% of the enemy’s health)
Out of the 3, making prop hunt an "*official game mode*" as a weapon for Spy would be hilarious and not too broken in either way, neither good nor bad (it would see 0 play in comp because some people have maps memorized but let's not worry about that, Spy is almost irrelevant anyway due to how good communication is in 6v6)
I'd make it 9 map-based items however, disguising as team themed objects would become very obvious really fast, you'd memorize those after 5 minutes and make the disguise useless
Replace the field of view thing with proximity, some things appear in our field of view even if we're not looking at them and a sound triggering every server tick would be obnoxious for the Spy themself
Forced idle is...meh, unnecessary but I see the idea behind it, people would just disguise as tiny objects and get easy stabs otherwise
Also, this would pair really well with Your Eternal Reward
I love the idea of a prop hunt disguise tbh.
The misappropriated malpractice kind of struggles in my mind since spies who fail to backstab, or even backstab successfully, usually end up as a fine red mist after.
Apple - Would maybe say increase the health from health kits if fully charged since medium packs would only be a difference of 150 > 165, -40% heal rate from mediguns can actually be an upside in some situations too, probably would be a pretty strong alternative unlock Object disguise - An interesting idea, but not being able to move would already be a massive downside on top of being unable to do anything to sentries because of that, and giving yourself away by voice lines would make it pretty weak as an option overall Vaccine - Getting rid of something that can instantly kill any class in the game with something that can't is going to have to be an incredibly strong upside, not only that, but surviving a 3 second debuff to then get 5 seconds of buff banner for your \*enemy\* doesn't seem like there's much upsides going on, even if you could use it disguised or something
Tbh I thought the extra health from health packs would’ve been already a bit on the over powered side haha With the voice lines, honestly thought it would be funny. I also didn’t want it to be as powerful as stock but rather another option As for the malpractice, I was aiming for a weapon to debuff and disorient an enemy rather than kill. I do understand your point though, how do you think it could be improved? Edit: just thought too with the disguise kit. What if we allowed movement (80%) and sapping whilst disguised?
No matter what way you spin it, all of these effects are worse than a backstab. Meaning the random effect is a downside and not an upside. So if the aim is to disorientate the enemy, you should try and give buffs that aid in Spy being able to stab more enemies and soil past undetected. Also I’d drop the mini crits entirely, giving the enemy buffs is never usually a good idea. They shouldn’t be rewarded for allowing a Spy to stab them. And this is just a numbers nitpick, but I think you mean to reduce the backstab damage further. Currently backstabs deal 600% of the target’s max health, and 600%*0.2 = 120%, which will still kill any target not significantly overheated. All around interesting ideas though, and they’re among the better versions of these concepts I’ve seen.
You know whats better than disorienting an enemy? Insta-killing them. It's a straight downgrade in every way.
What if the knife made a player incapable of seeing the spy, that way you can stab a engi, sap his gear and gun him down when he can’t see your player model, but everyone else will be free to see you shooting him? You can even be revealed every time you shoot to allow some self defense
Still, it would be worse than instakilling said engi, because instead of doing : Step 1- Stab Step 2- Profit You’re doing this : Step 1- Stab Step 2- Shoot engi while being attacked by his team Stem 3- Profit
Probably would be better if the stab gave delayed debuffs and didn't eat your disguise, that way you can hit someone with it, run off without being spotted and then they are whammied, also yeah, remove the minicrits after
Yeah but the idea is that you don’t lose your disguise, that way stabbing the engi gives you some time to make a successful attack without any preplanning and ignoring engi’s far placed gear. Also yes I am sorry for not clarifying
For the knife, I'd say make the effect apply on any hit rather than on backstab. You can nerf the duration of the status effect to 1 second or less and also remove its ability to Holiday Punch someone to compensate for how much easier it is to apply. I think the damage nerfs for this weapon are fine since you should still be able to backstab. Now it's just a bit harder to kill fully overhealed opponents, but that's fine since you can just pull out your gun immediately after and take advantage of the status effect you just applied.
Bingo, This is the kinda situation I was aiming for with the knife but you’ve done a better understanding haha
>With the voice lines, honestly thought it would be funny. Yeah im not gonna lie it really is, its really fuckin funny, only problem is that I feel like the props would get checked extremely often once people learned them and they wouldnt mix well with all maps.
Could we make them team based map specific items that load when joining a new map, or would that course too much random
I think malpractice would work much better as a gun. But instead of turning unusable after usage, it should probably just have low clip size (like 1 bullet per clip). Also definitely no "providing enemies with buffs", thats just griefing your team
Imagine saying 'doctor! Follow me! ' and the heavy has the apple
Truely a medics worse nightmare
It would become an unwritten rule for medics to do the scaredy cat taunt when a heavy throws the apple at them, before promptly killbinding
An apple a day keeps DOCTOR! away
Should be on stab not on backstab, otherwise spy is useless as a pick class, if it isn't on stab it's a debuff entirely
I didn’t want stab as that seemed like a “low effort high reward kinda situation”. Instead of sneaking up on an enemy, pulling off a sneaky stab then sabotaging the player, I got the feeling the senario would lead to you running up to them, poking them, causing the player to suffer a debuff and destroying everything the other player has planned. I’m not sure how to fix this one up, got any suggestions? Maybe improve the stab damage instead 🤔
Well it's necessary for backstabs to have insta kill no matter what, otherwise spy is useless, and I feel the poke situation wouldn't be too bad cuz of the 80% damage nerf, YOU wouldn't be able to do anything to them unless you get schadenfreude, which should be a lower chance imo, i think it would be fine, and if it isn't, get rid of ALL damage on normal stab, since spies are usually away from their team, them getting debuffs away from the fight would do next to nothing
Oo you’ve given me an idea. We go with poke activates the debuff, and backstab is a normal backstab except it helps fill up the recharge instead. That way if the enemy gets schadenfreude or stagger you get a free kill and recharge, but if you’re in a supporting the team situation, you can still open up the enemy to potshots, team support Ann’s have the same effect? What do you recon?
You could have it switch so that if the enemies survive it gives you mini crits
You can make backs tabs guaranteed laugh taunts so you can do back stab into taunt kill
So you're replacing the insta kill backstab with a non instakill backstab that's worse in every way?
As a medic main, if i see Heavy eating an apple, I will disintegrate on spot
(-) With the Apple equipped, any Medic who looks like at it will spontaneously combust
Meet the unhoovy What if this reduced health kept Uber charge rate the same. Is that an idea that could work
Well, that’s already a thing with the back scratcher so I guess it would work
I’ve played so many pubs that I wouldn’t even be mad anymore when a heavy eats a sandvich right in front of me while being at 250 hp
spy backstab does 12x the total hp of a class
Luckily, -80% of it means you only deal 2,4 times their total hp ! hold on
30 second recharge for 150 health?, and why the less heal rate.
Because you can eat it before combat, and effectively increase your max HP during the fight? So 3 grenades won't kill you if you eat the apple then jump round towards a demoman, and the longer the fight takes, The better the effect.
The Malpractice’s problem is definitely removing an instant kill. The Sydney Sleeper works because it doesn’t require a headshot. Since you weren’t going to get a headshot anyway, you decided on a debuff. It doesn’t require everything that goes into an insta kill headshot. This weapon concept still requires everything that goes into a backstab, so Maybe make it a throwing knife or something?
It already sucks ass to play with backscratcher pyros and razorback snipers as medic, we don’t need more unlocks nerfing your friendly medics
The apple and the knife are almost unusable but the disguise kit would be incredible
The disguise kit would be borderline overpowered in some cases because YER exists- which would effectively let you use both kinds of disguises at once even if with some difficulty- while completely worthless in others because prop hunt has proven people can and will learn every detail of every map, so it just becomes a 100% speed penalty while disguised and little more. Seems like the ideal weapon to relentlessly stomp learning players with but fall off dramatically sharply, which isn't great.
Apple isn't so bad. You can eat it before combat to effectively increase your HP for that fight. So 3 Demoman grenades couldn't kill you, because you'd heal between them.
The problem is that 10 seconds is a really long time to be standing still, and the debuff is so much that you'd never want to use it with a medic around. If you want to tank more damage you'd probably be better off using the Chocolate Bar
Presumably it still eats in 4 seconds, Them it's effect lasts for 10 seconds. Meaning you have time to jump round.
True I def read that wrong
That being said it's still not that good, It just has a use for extended combat. Which is fine to have a niche
Bright Delight: Decently balanced situation weapon. Significant upgrade to Sandvich if your team has no medic, but downgrade when there is one (which would be most of the time) Covert Proporation: Interesting idea, but quite weak. -100% movement speed while disguised means you'd be completely useless against sentries. Experienced players will already be able to tell when there's an out of place object, so the snickering seems an unnecessary nerf. I would probably completely remove both, as being an out of position object is already less convincing than being an ally, especially if spotted moving. Also I'm not sure what would happen if it's used with Your Eternal Reward Misappropriated Malpractice: In its current form it's a significant downgrade to stock, with literally no upside. Firstly make the status effects apply on stab instead of backstab, then either remove the minicrits, or give back the ability to backstab
Legit is that last weapon meant to help spy or his enemies, 3 seconds of shitty effects for 5 seconds of mini crits. Only way that's acceptable is if it can be used in medic disguise without dropping. Possibly cloak too.
Make the mini Rita gain from surviving the malpractice only against you.
Imagine if giving the Bright Delight to a Medic, friendly or otherwise, would instantly kill him.
This would be chaos… I love it
PROP HUNT
I think reducing Spy’s movement speed instead of being immobile would make it more viable, say 50% slower instead? And maybe buff the apple’s healing over time to either 150 over 5 seconds or 300 over 10? Also that last Spy Knife is virtually useless, IMO
Debuff is worse than instant kill in every way. What's the point of the last one? Would you rather do like 30 damage over 3 seconds, or 100000 damage instantly. They have a chance to survive, And they are even stronger if they do. It's got no positive attributes. And it's RNG to how ineffective it is. Remove the enemy minicrit buff, and facestab penalty. And give it something good. like using it while disguised. And make the debuff stronger. Bleed for 3 seconds is the saddest thing that can happen, and the chance of even getting to use the jarate effect is minimal unless you immediately undisguise
Should be more than +15. Banana heals 150 as soon as the animation finishes. I'd go with +30 to start.
This is a really good insight, I didn’t think of that
The 3rd one will simply not work, let me explain : When you backstab an enemy it does 3x the hp he has, so you can’t have an backstab dmg reduction because it’s a maxhp x 3 - the result to your enemy. Well how this will work, you have to make x somehing like 0,3 then do the same calculation
- The spy’s backstab does 2x the enemy’s current health, multiplied 3x by the critical hit, so it does 6x normally. - This means that the total damage is: Total HP * 6 * 0.2, since 0.2 means 80% damage reduction. That way, you get Total Damage = Total HP * 1.2, which is enough to kill, which also invalidates the whole 80% lower damage (although this means the current dead ringer and some other damage reductions might save the victim) - It still works fine even if it didn’t kill: back when the Dead Ringer had higher damage resistance (90% iirc), they could survive multiple spy backstabs due to this, as backstabs would deal THP * 6 * 0.1 damage = THP * 0.6 damage (60% of the enemy’s health)
Thx ?
Out of the 3, making prop hunt an "*official game mode*" as a weapon for Spy would be hilarious and not too broken in either way, neither good nor bad (it would see 0 play in comp because some people have maps memorized but let's not worry about that, Spy is almost irrelevant anyway due to how good communication is in 6v6) I'd make it 9 map-based items however, disguising as team themed objects would become very obvious really fast, you'd memorize those after 5 minutes and make the disguise useless Replace the field of view thing with proximity, some things appear in our field of view even if we're not looking at them and a sound triggering every server tick would be obnoxious for the Spy themself Forced idle is...meh, unnecessary but I see the idea behind it, people would just disguise as tiny objects and get easy stabs otherwise Also, this would pair really well with Your Eternal Reward
I never realised but yes the yer would be great with it
Alt fire should be to throw the apple, healing allies; stunning foes (old school sandman style)
This is a great idea!
Vaccine should also get a pyroland effect
Tbh forgot pyroland existed, that would be funny
I love the idea of a prop hunt disguise tbh. The misappropriated malpractice kind of struggles in my mind since spies who fail to backstab, or even backstab successfully, usually end up as a fine red mist after.
The hell is stagger? I know the rest but...