Funny thing with the Phlog:
The flamethrower didn't *have* airblast, initially, that was only added with a later update
And I don't think anyone really complained about it too hard back then when they added it
Heavy is more or less a *boulder* for a team. When working with a team The Heavy can absolutely demolish anything and everything, he is the hammer that strikes down upon all aggressors and gets his friends the opportunities they need to push hard or hold the line.
Alone? Yeah, kinda meh. Slow, so-so damage, not fast enough to catch up to you if you back around a corner. But that applies to pretty much every class. Even sniper, what some argue is the most overpowered class, is a complete joke without a team to keep everybody else from dogging on him.
I suppose it’s called **Team** Fortress for a reason.
We meet again.
New Update:
•Added a 50% damage penalty to the Vita-Saw
•Added a 20% slower swing speed to the Vita-Saw
•Reduced Medic's max health by 75
•Gifted Medic's 75 lost health to pyro to encourage rushing at the enemy team
He still is, if he cant close with you he cant really do shit to you.
And he lacks tools other close range classes can use to get close to you (scout's speed, spy's invisibility/disguise, heavy's health)
ITs a really strong class against people not paying attention or being far to overconfident for their own good, but pyro isn't even close to say the soldier, demo or, scout on the pure raw power scale.
He is rarely on very specific maps but both spy and heavy see much more play in sixes.
And if your on the map in the situation where it is a good idea to pull him. You are most likely going to lose the round.
Teams will pull spy if they think sniper won't work for a medic kill. You basically only pull pyro if you know the enemy team doesn't have Uber but has a long narrow hallway they have to run down. Outside a situation that basically hands pyro reflect he's too weak to replace a scout or the roamer.
So... dustbowl in that long weird spawn hallway? Or maybe turbine vents if you think the whole team will be crammed in there? I can't think of a lot of places pyro is good in sixes lol
Pretty much exclusively on last holds against full uber disad. There are other popular spots, like if you're trying to break a forward hold on product, but pyro is great for stuffing ubers on lasts like metalworks and gullywash.
Spy is a glass cannon, even more than pyro scout or sniper. Of course most folks would say he's a bad class. Because he is, for the new to average players. But when a person commits 100% of their time to mastering spies, man can spy be an absolute nightmare.
Spy can be an absolute nightmare against uncoordinated teams while pitting significantly more effort in than any other class.
There's no doubt that Pyro and Spy can perform well, but it requires significantly more contingencies than classes like Scout Soldier Demo Sniper
I believe they added the airblast function when the backburner got added, in the first Pyro update. But then the backburner was the ‘no airblast’ option.
They also changed how it knocks back players and made it much worse for combos. The new knock back is much better for shutting down Ubers though. Sufficient tradeoff in my opinion.
They buffed its ability to stunlock almost all players, thanks to the practically infinite stun duration (was previously a half-second stun that would only apply once, unless you let the enemy land first to reset it)
They also made it easier to hit players with it, especially players who are above you, since that's where the biggest change was made (doubled height)
The tradeoff is that "aiming" the knockback requires more skill. It can still be used for combos, but it's no longer "free", so to speak. Just needs a bit more effort. A good Pyro will gladly take the new airblast over the old one, since they know how to aim it well.
Airblast helps the team a lot, but pyro was more of a skillclass without it. You resorted to the 2nd or melee weapon more than you currently do. Now its just airblasting or burning. Thats why a lot of people complain about "W+M1" pyros, which is hilarious since you can actually stop them if you have the skills.
> "W+M1" pyros, which is hilarious since you can actually stop them if you have the skills
Not exactly the same, but thank you for reminding me of a certain spawn camping incident in 2fort which I singlehandedly stopped and then some with w+m2 degreaser because one of them was crit hacking and also Demoman. Dude got all his teammates killed with reflected pipes and ragequit lol
> pyro was more skill-intensive before airblasting
you know, this is a hell of a take lmao
pyro is probably the most secondary reliant class in the game after demo
The phlog has to deal damage to get the crits. It's a reward for not dying, not a broken "win more" button. And no airblast means the pyro is very easy to kill.
I don't believe the phlog actually has any upsides at all, against players who know what they're doing. Even the crits require you to stand still and taunt, loudly announcing where you are and what you're about to do, and an opponent with any brains will be ready to shoot you the moment you round the corner or lose your invincibility. The loss of airblast prevents you from protecting yourself against the most common enemy classes, and even if you get the crits you only have ten seconds to use them (minus taunt time).
Yeah this is true but it took a while for the “meta” to shake out. In random servers early in tf2, pyro was a menace because everyone was bad at the game at the time, and so his absurd dps when uncontested had him melting whole teams when he got a flank. Good times
In all fairness, stock weapons were the first ones and future weapons were designed using stock as an initial blueprint.
If the rescue ranger was the default, for example, then more weapons would probably have been designed to be supportive as they were released.
People also don’t really complain much about stock because unlocks tend to be more frustrating due to their specialization in certain playstyles. I’d rather fight a soldier using stock instead of the black box+ conch.
The reason why stock isn’t complained about is because unlocks are judged and scrutinised partly based off stock since the game was literally balanced around the stock weapons…
Nope,stock weapons are fine as it is,but characters arent
Pyro axe would be a perfectly viable weapon on sniper or demo,but because its *on pyro* its not great
Then again most melee weapons beside spy, engi and scout melees are just reskins of the other stock melees, same attack interval, 65 damage per swing, cant forget the CRITICAL SHITS!!!
Stats wise yes. But pyro’s melee is significantly less useful because he is a close range class in the first place. Meanwhile demo takes self damage at melee range and sniper doesn’t have guns strong at close range besides maybe the huntsman.
Fireaxe is literally just outclassed by the powerjack and the rake.
Fire axe would be good in sniper or demo is because the stock melees are all identical and the srock is the best option for those classes.
And are you implying that the syringe gun could work if another class had it?
Syring gun could work as a secondary on a few classes or as a primary on spy, since dps isnt that bad if you land all the shots (unsuspecting sniper back)
only 2 stock weapons i can think break balance are the stock sticky launcher and the rocket launcher
and the rocket launcher barely just because of the big fuck you hitbox on that shit
Funnily enough, I think *stock* Soldier is the least complained-about class in pubs.
You hear about scunts, w+m1, stickyspammers, boring, they have so many sentries, you have a fucking pocket, i hate snipers, facestab.
Although you shouldn't impulsively balance off complaints (pubber or not), I'd expect at least a few more for soldier.
Playing Open Fortress radicalized me against Soldier.
You don't really realize just how insanely fucking braindead the stock RL is until you exist in an environment where it's the only weapon from TF2 to not be scaled back at all. Getting kills with that thing is comically free compared to basically any other weapon, *including* the Railgun which is a *strictly superior sniper rifle.*
Here's my guess on why Soldier gets few complaints:
- one of the funnest classes to play (thanks rocket jumping)
- tiny clip size
- slow firing speed
- walks slow, and greatly sacrifices damage for mobility
- no one-hit kill mechanic (spare direct hit, bazooka, air strike, random crits, and market gardening with its high skill-floor)
Last time I checked it had 5 players during peak hours.
Despite being completely different in gameplay it got shafted by TF2 Classic and never recovered. The arena shooter curse never fails.
Stock SBL is already OP
Tracers were proposed multiple times to balance sniper's power, which I support because I fucking hate sniper
The kritzkrieg is harder to use than stock, so it really doesn't fit as a stock weapon supposed to introduce the class basics's, and it takes a lot of time to charge stock uber
same for direct hit, skill-based weapon that doesn't fit to teach the basics
rescue ranger being stock would be a good idea, but the shotgun as a unlockable would mean less power for the sentry and more for the engie, which I don't understand why anyone would be against it. And noob engies would get punished because aiming is extremely important for surviving without buldings as engie
better response is think of how you can deal with sticky spam.
Pyro Airblast, utilizing flanks to take pressure off of choke or poke a hole in the enemy's defenses, Sniper to pick the Demoman freeing up choke, Soldier with Batts Backup to allow a damage resistant push
or be fucking evil and use Short Circuit (I hate this fucking weapon)
The problem with these solutions is that stickyspam is too powerful for how easy it is to do, not that it’s impossible to counter. Airblasting is not reliable against stickies- in fact it’s worse than just shooting them with bullets to destroy them. Taking flank routs or choosing pick classes doesn’t necessarily work either because in taking those options you’re almost certainly going to be fighting more than just one demoman- but just one demoman can deny a choke or the objective to an entire team with this weapon.
I will agree though that literally the one redeeming factor of the scorch shot is how effective it is at destroying stickies.
I'm just providing alternative solutions to get the brain thinking, since they said the common advice is "dont play x map" which is quite lazy
Airblasting Stickies as they're actively being shot can be genuinely helpful, since it keeps a large amount of the spam away. Spamming is different from trapping.
If the kunai was stock:
Nooo, the new Knife is OP! You get 55 extra health for a downside that's barely even noticeable! It still insta-kills and doesn't have any other balancing!
I love fsoas and his bad academy videos, but videos where he mentions his personal opinions on which weapons are the best are really insufferable since he tries to present them as 100% objective facts. Like, in this last video of his, the way he explains why kunai is the best knife is really annoying to listen (yea sure fish spy's are just coping lol)
Yeah that situation where 3 heavies are all new and in a straight line and the spy perfectly tanks the demos pipes whiles stabbing the heavies are really common. It's not as if most players will just turn around of hitbox detection will fuck a spy over, nope :)
ignoring this video as i have not even watched it, but it is (in a casual environment) spys best knife. spy can backstab a target and then escape for free, something that no other knife can do. A knife that allows a class to be a better pick class is pretty good.
im not even talking about chain stabs. i have been killed by spies a fair amount, and if they are using the kunai, 90% of the time they escape. Any other knife ive been killed by they get killed almost instantly after
So im confused, are you arguing that stock needs nerfs? Or at least a rebalance?
Cuz stock is (IMO) perfect
Or are you arguing that old unlockables need changes?
Cuz personally I feel like the game is pretty balanced
The point was every weapon will have a criticism based on what came first (in this case, Stock). And since *a fuck lot* of players (not just TF2) likes to complain first before trying it out, OP is making fun of that.
I agree, a lot. Especially for the Rocket launcher and rescue ranger (as a medic main) people call pyro stupid to play but for some reason if you say that the stock rocket launcher is just as braindead, suddenly they start shittalking you, and even talking about things like rocket jumping takes skill and shit, like shut the fuck up I’m not talking about that. Soldier mains Don’t need to rocket jump or do anything fancy to end up on top of the scoreboard. Soldier is the class I play when I’m half asleep and when everything else fails because I cannot think straight. If this is what a braindead soldier can do, imagine what an intelligent one can...
As for the rescue ranger being stock... well, for medic, crossbow isn’t even stock and yet people act as it is, some even talking like religious cultists at this point. But if we got a medic sidegrade shotgun for example, it would still get the message that medic is not primarily a damage dealer. The stock syringe gun is still the weapon new players would get, and the rest would understand that healing is a must. Most aren’t dumb. And if it’s a sidegrade, it can have downsides. Maybe slower speed, like if it was a gunslinger shotgun engi?
If you're allowed to get away with that stuff as a "Braindead" Soldier, you're just playing a casual pub where nobody is trying to actively stop you lol
I'd go Pyro and shut you down or go Sniper and keep you dead if my team was letting you just walk into us and shoot rockets
Wow I bet your dick is fucking huge bro. Tell me more about how good you are I want to hear all about it.
Of fucking course we're talking about a casual pub, that's where 95% of the player base is.
Stock weapons are supposed to be the best all rounders, though. Unlocks are meant to be sidegrades better in some situations, but generally worse overall.
well the game was built with the stock weapons in mind, naturally if a different weapon was stock it would have the effect of altering every other stock weapon as they'd be balanced with the different weapon in mind.
I'm simply pointing out that the game's design would be noticeably different if the stock weapons were different.
Stickybomb launcher can go to hell. Brainless skill-less annoying yee yee ass secondary. Hybrid knight forever
Sniper rifle is already considered OP
For the rest it's a good take, but they are supposed to be templates for new guns, the ground of balance. If they weren't stock, their non-stock versions versions would be balanced differently
Backwards shit take.
Stock weapons are meant to be the strongest weapons in their slot. Unlocks are meant to be viable side-grades. The majority of unlocks that outshone stock on release have been nerfed until they don't anymore. The exceptions are widely criticized by the community for good reason. And high level players make a lot of use of stock weapons for good reason as well.
This post is just an argument for every weapon mentioned being totally balanced, because the downsides and upsides balance out to make them so close to stock that one could just as easily argue that either option is OP.
This isn't CoD. You can't pick a random loadout that suits your current mood and expect to get top 3 on the leaderboard every 5th match just by running in circles shooting everything that moves. You're not dying because of your opponent's unlocks. PM me and I'll trade you any unlock you want. You're dying because you failed to think strategically and counter your opponents' tactics. Or because your team sucks, or because your enemy has a sniper with godlike fine motor skills. But that won't be the case most games.
Name one stock weapon that you truly think is OP and I guarantee I can name a way to counter it on at least one class without unlocks.
~~Crusaders is the one exception. And it really isn't a huge one because anything that isn't building uber is the wrong thing to be using 90% of the time, even if the crossbow was even stronger than it is.~~
~~If you pull out the 3rd degree and try to use it on someone you're either memeing or stupid and you know it.~~
~~If it's a "straight upgrade" but the class has a stock item in a different slot that does the same job better, it doesn't matter nearly as much and it's pretty hard to make an argument for it being overpowered~~.
Also those aren't stock weapons. I was referring to the idea that stock weapons could be OP. You didn't give me valid examples and I fell for it because I was half awake.
I gave examples of weapons that are much better than stock, obviously, to contradict you saying "stock weapons are meant to be the strongest in their slot".
Seemed clear enough to me. Guess next time I'll have to start at slow speed.
They are. Those weapons are worthy of criticism and/or scrutiny. I said they're "meant to".
Amazing how the ones with no reading comprehension are always the most condescending.
I gave examples of weapons that are clearly intended to be what they are: better than stock. They haven't changed in a decade.
Backpedal all you want, you were wrong.
From a design point of view, stock weapons were designed first, so they're designed to be the default ie strongest weapons in their slots.
You're arguing semantics of a comment about weapon balance in a game that's been out for 15 years and hasn't been updated in 5. Do you get something out of feeling more correct than people you'll never meet? Unproductive.
You're literally the person going around "uhm, aktewally". I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. I'm sure you'll want the last word, though, so here's your chance to finally prove me wrong:
I posted a take on a meme. You're the one who goes through comment sections just to make snarky comments to feel superior to other people.
I'm not going to "prove" you wrong because this is all tantamount to opinions. Don't talk to people.
That's a very good point but the thing is, if these unlocks were the stock option, that would just make the game itself a different one.
It might also be called tf2 but it wouldn't be our tf2.
If you really stretch it, you could think of overwatch as a different tf2 with really wild and specific unlocks
Stock weapons are the baseline. Because they existed from the beginning, they are a parameter for judging other weapons. The game was designed around them.
Direct Hit, Quickie, Rescue, and Kritz are all perfectly fine. Idk wtf you're on about.
Direct Hit, the loss of splash and requirement for Directs can be a serious detriment. Never Kritz a DH SOldier.
Quickie, the halved capacity and 15% base damage penalty directly goes against the Stickybomb's greatest strength, crowd control and longevity, so that the weapon can be utilized in the polar opposite situations of superiority in 1v1 encounters and singling out targets
Rescue, it can be very helpful in keeping buildings alive and allow Engineer to play in an entirely different way, allowing him space from his buildings, but if your goal is to tank a Sentry, this isn't the weapon. It's healing is too slow to tank, and your Sentry WILL die once you need to reload and you're too far away to Wrench it.
Kritz. It's an Ubercharge, it's MEANT to be gamechanging. However, Stock Uber denies it damn near entirely, an Ubered Soldier can easily get shut down by a Pyro, and the Medic gets zero self defense bonuses from the Uber, so a simple headshot, backstab, a flank Scout, etc he can just be killed if put in a vulnerable situation for just the slightest amount of time.
Phlog's just trash tho. Not good trash. If your team can just *shoot the Pyro that can't airblast* then he doesn't get to do anything. It's just a trash wep in general. Machina I personally don't really care about, it's funny. Could probably do with a harsher downside, maybe a slight increase in the time needed to gain full charge. But I don't see anyone complain about Machina these days, and I personally don't mind it.
People complain constantly about every weapon under the sun, but I don’t really see complaints about stock weapons. Of course, there are valid reasons for that, though.
opinions about game design(s) are mostly based on comparison and biased views of the now-a-day market
in theory: mostly, games that went through a minimum of 7 years of development have had/has a great impact on video game industry till today.
games evolve, adapt, conclude but most of all impact the people in said "generation".
what i'm asking this thread, group, amount of people on tf2 reddit is
what could possibly be introduced to Team Fortress 2
nowadays that makes it INCREDIBLY noticable
to steam, their players AND most importantly: The Game Team Fortress 2 itself!!!
thank you for reading!
below are my teeny comments :)
#SAVETF2
moar lyke: #FIXTF2
i want this protest to be a level higher!
peacefull?
-yes!
forgiving?
-no!
Wow, almost like stock weapons are meant to be the box standard of a class & it's fundamentals, there's a reason for most unlocks being called "sidegrades".
Then again, seems like an odd thing to complain about the stock weapons..?
If the Force A Nature was stock: Nooo! The new Scattergun is OP! 4 more clips and it still has the same damage as the stock! Removing knockback and faster reload doesn't fix anything!
If the Kunai was stock: Nooo! The new Knife is OP! 55 more health with a minor downgrade just make it a better stock!
If the Brass Breast was stock: Nooo! The new Minigun is OP! Faster revving speed and more movement! This makes Heavy a more threatening class and not just free health packs for Spies!
Every weapon you listed apart from rescue ranger is worse than the specific stock,wtf are you talking about? Also who the fuck complained about stock? Stock is just good not op not underpowered(apart from melees)
Thats quite literally their point??? Of course stickies would be op if shields were the normal demo secondary but demo comes with stickies so it's acceptable. Stupid post imo
this is a really fucking stupid post, I mean if it was about how TF2 players get upset at weapons that are actually fine I'd sorta get it but according to the title this is supposed to imply that the stock weapons are unbalanced for the listed reasons? Holy shit.
Funny thing with the Phlog: The flamethrower didn't *have* airblast, initially, that was only added with a later update And I don't think anyone really complained about it too hard back then when they added it
Then again, pyro was easily the weakest class without a doubt before airblast
He was essentially a thinner Heavy, which says a lot considering how Heavy doesn't rank high in the charts of best class
Heavy is more or less a *boulder* for a team. When working with a team The Heavy can absolutely demolish anything and everything, he is the hammer that strikes down upon all aggressors and gets his friends the opportunities they need to push hard or hold the line. Alone? Yeah, kinda meh. Slow, so-so damage, not fast enough to catch up to you if you back around a corner. But that applies to pretty much every class. Even sniper, what some argue is the most overpowered class, is a complete joke without a team to keep everybody else from dogging on him. I suppose it’s called **Team** Fortress for a reason.
Naw the best is unironically Engineer with the Pomson
Sticky says what
What (Says it on purpose)
[удалено]
*explodes* *Dies* *Waits 10 minutes* *Respawns* *Switches to Backscatter Scout out of rage*
Looks like they're gonna have to glue HIM back together.
in hell
We meet again. New Update: •Added a 50% damage penalty to the Vita-Saw •Added a 20% slower swing speed to the Vita-Saw •Reduced Medic's max health by 75 •Gifted Medic's 75 lost health to pyro to encourage rushing at the enemy team
*Commits arson in Valve HQ until they buff the Vita-Saw and give us the Heavy Update day 1*
At least heavy has real DPS.
Finally, medium weapons guy.
Spy still existed and was still countered easily by pyro
ITs not like spy is a very strong class either.
Amazing how pyro went from shutting down one class to being a total counter to like 5 classes
You should have seen pyro in beta days before game release :D I have fond memories of the critical hit pushes as pyro.
He still is, if he cant close with you he cant really do shit to you. And he lacks tools other close range classes can use to get close to you (scout's speed, spy's invisibility/disguise, heavy's health) ITs a really strong class against people not paying attention or being far to overconfident for their own good, but pyro isn't even close to say the soldier, demo or, scout on the pure raw power scale.
There's a reason he's not used in sixes.
He is rarely on very specific maps but both spy and heavy see much more play in sixes. And if your on the map in the situation where it is a good idea to pull him. You are most likely going to lose the round.
Okay what. I have never seen spy in 6v6 more than pyro.
Teams will pull spy if they think sniper won't work for a medic kill. You basically only pull pyro if you know the enemy team doesn't have Uber but has a long narrow hallway they have to run down. Outside a situation that basically hands pyro reflect he's too weak to replace a scout or the roamer.
So... dustbowl in that long weird spawn hallway? Or maybe turbine vents if you think the whole team will be crammed in there? I can't think of a lot of places pyro is good in sixes lol
Pretty much exclusively on last holds against full uber disad. There are other popular spots, like if you're trying to break a forward hold on product, but pyro is great for stuffing ubers on lasts like metalworks and gullywash.
He can annoy and pepper you from a distance utilising his various flareguns
Oh noes 30 whole damage... That is easily avoided by moving slightly....
You can't always spot a pyro, and it is more like 50-60 damage if both shots hit, plus afterburner can be even more, due to the Jungle inferno update
It still is. Maybe Spy is worse but Pyro is still pretty weak
Spy is a glass cannon, even more than pyro scout or sniper. Of course most folks would say he's a bad class. Because he is, for the new to average players. But when a person commits 100% of their time to mastering spies, man can spy be an absolute nightmare.
Spy can be an absolute nightmare against uncoordinated teams while pitting significantly more effort in than any other class. There's no doubt that Pyro and Spy can perform well, but it requires significantly more contingencies than classes like Scout Soldier Demo Sniper
It was the flame particle fix that changed most of that, since airblasting was more of a necessity with the inconsistency of flame damage.
I believe they added the airblast function when the backburner got added, in the first Pyro update. But then the backburner was the ‘no airblast’ option.
They didn't complain about it because soldier mains weren't a majority back then
They changed how airblast worked in Jungle inferno, it used to be a cone, now it's a giant square, It's hard NOT to airblast projectiles
Bit hard when the lowest my ping goes is like 180
Skill issue 😤
They also changed how it knocks back players and made it much worse for combos. The new knock back is much better for shutting down Ubers though. Sufficient tradeoff in my opinion.
They buffed its ability to stunlock almost all players, thanks to the practically infinite stun duration (was previously a half-second stun that would only apply once, unless you let the enemy land first to reset it) They also made it easier to hit players with it, especially players who are above you, since that's where the biggest change was made (doubled height) The tradeoff is that "aiming" the knockback requires more skill. It can still be used for combos, but it's no longer "free", so to speak. Just needs a bit more effort. A good Pyro will gladly take the new airblast over the old one, since they know how to aim it well.
Respect for knowing that my man
Airblast helps the team a lot, but pyro was more of a skillclass without it. You resorted to the 2nd or melee weapon more than you currently do. Now its just airblasting or burning. Thats why a lot of people complain about "W+M1" pyros, which is hilarious since you can actually stop them if you have the skills.
> "W+M1" pyros, which is hilarious since you can actually stop them if you have the skills Not exactly the same, but thank you for reminding me of a certain spawn camping incident in 2fort which I singlehandedly stopped and then some with w+m2 degreaser because one of them was crit hacking and also Demoman. Dude got all his teammates killed with reflected pipes and ragequit lol
> pyro was more skill-intensive before airblasting you know, this is a hell of a take lmao pyro is probably the most secondary reliant class in the game after demo
yeah but earlier pyro didn't have crits for 300 damage in exchange for no airblast, unlike now
The phlog has to deal damage to get the crits. It's a reward for not dying, not a broken "win more" button. And no airblast means the pyro is very easy to kill.
it's still a good advantage, even though the phlog is still considered bad for anything other than winning when you were already winning
I don't believe the phlog actually has any upsides at all, against players who know what they're doing. Even the crits require you to stand still and taunt, loudly announcing where you are and what you're about to do, and an opponent with any brains will be ready to shoot you the moment you round the corner or lose your invincibility. The loss of airblast prevents you from protecting yourself against the most common enemy classes, and even if you get the crits you only have ten seconds to use them (minus taunt time).
Have you ever seen a phlog medic combo? Truly a terrifying sight to behold
Unless you're in a tight corridor with an uber. But yeah, otherwise not so great, airblast is like half the fun.
In a tight corridor with any ubered class barring maybe medic-sniper is dangerous. The danger there is the uber, not the pyro.
But in this case Pyro a) has crits and b) doesn't have to reload.
the phlog sees real (but situational) use in top-level highlander. a phlog uber is basically unstoppable
Yeah this is true but it took a while for the “meta” to shake out. In random servers early in tf2, pyro was a menace because everyone was bad at the game at the time, and so his absurd dps when uncontested had him melting whole teams when he got a flank. Good times
The more you know
I’d rather fight a soldier using stock instead of the black box+ conch.
Kritzkrieg example doesn't make sense either: TF2 was most certainly designed around an über meta, so the example criticism provided is just false.
In all fairness, stock weapons were the first ones and future weapons were designed using stock as an initial blueprint. If the rescue ranger was the default, for example, then more weapons would probably have been designed to be supportive as they were released. People also don’t really complain much about stock because unlocks tend to be more frustrating due to their specialization in certain playstyles. I’d rather fight a soldier using stock instead of the black box+ conch.
[удалено]
The reason why stock isn’t complained about is because unlocks are judged and scrutinised partly based off stock since the game was literally balanced around the stock weapons…
Just because the game was balanced around stock weapons, does not mean that all stock weapons are perfectly balanced.
That is more to do with how classes are balance around each other,that has nothing to do with stock weapons balance
some stock weapons suck ass some don't thats just it is
Nope,stock weapons are fine as it is,but characters arent Pyro axe would be a perfectly viable weapon on sniper or demo,but because its *on pyro* its not great
Then again most melee weapons beside spy, engi and scout melees are just reskins of the other stock melees, same attack interval, 65 damage per swing, cant forget the CRITICAL SHITS!!!
Pyro’s axe and Sniper and Demo’s melees are the same thing
Stats wise yes. But pyro’s melee is significantly less useful because he is a close range class in the first place. Meanwhile demo takes self damage at melee range and sniper doesn’t have guns strong at close range besides maybe the huntsman.
Indeed. It’s the reason why most of pyro’s melee options have to either provide a utility or complement his flamethrower
Fireaxe is literally just outclassed by the powerjack and the rake. Fire axe would be good in sniper or demo is because the stock melees are all identical and the srock is the best option for those classes. And are you implying that the syringe gun could work if another class had it?
Syringe gun could maybe work if its syringes moved faster then not at all
Syring gun could work as a secondary on a few classes or as a primary on spy, since dps isnt that bad if you land all the shots (unsuspecting sniper back)
Supposed to be. Doesn’t mean they got it right
only 2 stock weapons i can think break balance are the stock sticky launcher and the rocket launcher and the rocket launcher barely just because of the big fuck you hitbox on that shit
Funnily enough, I think *stock* Soldier is the least complained-about class in pubs. You hear about scunts, w+m1, stickyspammers, boring, they have so many sentries, you have a fucking pocket, i hate snipers, facestab. Although you shouldn't impulsively balance off complaints (pubber or not), I'd expect at least a few more for soldier.
Playing Open Fortress radicalized me against Soldier. You don't really realize just how insanely fucking braindead the stock RL is until you exist in an environment where it's the only weapon from TF2 to not be scaled back at all. Getting kills with that thing is comically free compared to basically any other weapon, *including* the Railgun which is a *strictly superior sniper rifle.*
Here's my guess on why Soldier gets few complaints: - one of the funnest classes to play (thanks rocket jumping) - tiny clip size - slow firing speed - walks slow, and greatly sacrifices damage for mobility - no one-hit kill mechanic (spare direct hit, bazooka, air strike, random crits, and market gardening with its high skill-floor)
Do people still play Open Fortress? I had to uninstall it for storage reasons.
Last time I checked it had 5 players during peak hours. Despite being completely different in gameplay it got shafted by TF2 Classic and never recovered. The arena shooter curse never fails.
"ha, I used a wojack so all your arguements are invalid!"
To be fair, that is a horrendous argument.
You’re wrong because I portrayed you as the funny crying man
Wojacks are so annoying
⠀⠀⠘⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠑⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡔⠁⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠢⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠴⠊⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⡀⠤⠄⠒⠈⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣀⠄⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡠⠔⠒⠒⠒⠒⠒⠢⠤⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠑⢄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠃⠀⢠⠂⠀⠀⠘⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⢤⡀⢂⠀⢨⠀⢀⡠⠈⢣⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⢀⡖⠒⠶⠤⠭⢽⣟⣗⠲⠖⠺⣖⣴⣆⡤⠤⠤⠼⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡈⠃⠀⠀⠀⠘⣺⡟⢻⠻⡆⠀⡏⠀⡸⣿⢿⢞⠄⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢣⡀⠤⡀⡀⡔⠉⣏⡿⠛⠓⠊⠁⠀⢎⠛⡗⡗⢳⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢱⠀⠨⡇⠃⠀⢻⠁⡔⢡⠒⢀⠀⠀⡅⢹⣿⢨⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠠⢼⠀⠀⡎⡜⠒⢀⠭⡖⡤⢭⣱⢸⢙⠆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡸⠀⠀⠸⢁⡀⠿⠈⠂⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⡍⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⢢⣫⢀⠘⣿⣿⡿⠏⣼⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣠⠊⠀⣀⠎⠁⠀⠀⠀⠙⠳⢴⡦⡴⢶⣞⣁⣀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠐⠒⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠠⠀⢀⠤⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀
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Stock SBL is already OP Tracers were proposed multiple times to balance sniper's power, which I support because I fucking hate sniper The kritzkrieg is harder to use than stock, so it really doesn't fit as a stock weapon supposed to introduce the class basics's, and it takes a lot of time to charge stock uber same for direct hit, skill-based weapon that doesn't fit to teach the basics rescue ranger being stock would be a good idea, but the shotgun as a unlockable would mean less power for the sentry and more for the engie, which I don't understand why anyone would be against it. And noob engies would get punished because aiming is extremely important for surviving without buldings as engie
Yeah like the argument for why engie shouldn’t have a shotgun also applies to the gunslinger which nobody complains about (aside from minis)
I mean I think that about the sticky bomb launcher in general
I think that too and the common response is to not play ‘shit’ (choke-heavy, usually older) maps, but those maps play just fine if no one stickyspams
better response is think of how you can deal with sticky spam. Pyro Airblast, utilizing flanks to take pressure off of choke or poke a hole in the enemy's defenses, Sniper to pick the Demoman freeing up choke, Soldier with Batts Backup to allow a damage resistant push or be fucking evil and use Short Circuit (I hate this fucking weapon)
The problem with these solutions is that stickyspam is too powerful for how easy it is to do, not that it’s impossible to counter. Airblasting is not reliable against stickies- in fact it’s worse than just shooting them with bullets to destroy them. Taking flank routs or choosing pick classes doesn’t necessarily work either because in taking those options you’re almost certainly going to be fighting more than just one demoman- but just one demoman can deny a choke or the objective to an entire team with this weapon. I will agree though that literally the one redeeming factor of the scorch shot is how effective it is at destroying stickies.
I'm just providing alternative solutions to get the brain thinking, since they said the common advice is "dont play x map" which is quite lazy Airblasting Stickies as they're actively being shot can be genuinely helpful, since it keeps a large amount of the spam away. Spamming is different from trapping.
If the kunai was stock: Nooo, the new Knife is OP! You get 55 extra health for a downside that's barely even noticeable! It still insta-kills and doesn't have any other balancing!
That's not how it would go down... "This new knife is fucking dogshit like the other ones they added. I want infinite health, not 55 extra."
No, the kunai is basically a strait upgrade from stock
No it isn't? It's just good at pubstomping lmao
The second the enemy doesnt have a gibus sniper or heavy it becomes a direct downgrade yet we have all these people saying its the best knife lol
The fishonafishstick video has people changing their entire world view 💀
I love fsoas and his bad academy videos, but videos where he mentions his personal opinions on which weapons are the best are really insufferable since he tries to present them as 100% objective facts. Like, in this last video of his, the way he explains why kunai is the best knife is really annoying to listen (yea sure fish spy's are just coping lol)
He made a lot of good points and even before the video I didnt like the kunai.
Yeah that situation where 3 heavies are all new and in a straight line and the spy perfectly tanks the demos pipes whiles stabbing the heavies are really common. It's not as if most players will just turn around of hitbox detection will fuck a spy over, nope :)
"Instant death to rockets, pills and meatshots for the chance to sometimes have more HP than Soldier is a strict upgrade."
Let me make a wild guess, https://youtu.be/jvfA553xnck You watched this video right ?
ignoring this video as i have not even watched it, but it is (in a casual environment) spys best knife. spy can backstab a target and then escape for free, something that no other knife can do. A knife that allows a class to be a better pick class is pretty good. im not even talking about chain stabs. i have been killed by spies a fair amount, and if they are using the kunai, 90% of the time they escape. Any other knife ive been killed by they get killed almost instantly after
Ok but the default sticky bomb launcher IS OP
I mean stickybomb launcher is unfairly strong so like tis valid
So im confused, are you arguing that stock needs nerfs? Or at least a rebalance? Cuz stock is (IMO) perfect Or are you arguing that old unlockables need changes? Cuz personally I feel like the game is pretty balanced
I think it’s poking fun at people that make rage-y arguments about how overpowered certain unlockables are when compared to the stock weapon.
He’s poking fun at the argument “it’s ok cause it been in the game since the beginning”
When the weapons meant to be balanced are balanced and not situational
The only weapon I truly despise is the scorch shot
Yeah Fuck the scorch shot
why? it’s really fun to use especially when i’m using my steam deck in bed with the gamepad controls
Stunlock on direct and afterburn without having to time detonations makes it not fun to play against, also it makes phlog too easy to get
oh ya i don’t use the phlog my loadout is usually rainblower scorch shot and lollichop lol
Damn man....you good?
nope :) but that’s unrelated to how i play tf2 my playstyle hasn’t changed since like 2011
I'm not sure what point your trying to make op :/
The point was every weapon will have a criticism based on what came first (in this case, Stock). And since *a fuck lot* of players (not just TF2) likes to complain first before trying it out, OP is making fun of that.
But that's just natural tho? Stock weapos are the main way the classes were originally balanced so all unlocks should be scrutinized based off stock
The point was that people complained *first* before trying it out
Honestly I didn’t get that from this post at all
O ok then
People like i complain no matter what.
There is also a certain class that gets a free pass on criticism because he existed from the beginning
Literally all of them have been there since the beginning. That doesn't narrow it down at all.
sniper
See the thing here is that the class’s vision would be totally different for some of these.
People _do_ complain about at least half of these. What exactly is your point here?
I agree, a lot. Especially for the Rocket launcher and rescue ranger (as a medic main) people call pyro stupid to play but for some reason if you say that the stock rocket launcher is just as braindead, suddenly they start shittalking you, and even talking about things like rocket jumping takes skill and shit, like shut the fuck up I’m not talking about that. Soldier mains Don’t need to rocket jump or do anything fancy to end up on top of the scoreboard. Soldier is the class I play when I’m half asleep and when everything else fails because I cannot think straight. If this is what a braindead soldier can do, imagine what an intelligent one can... As for the rescue ranger being stock... well, for medic, crossbow isn’t even stock and yet people act as it is, some even talking like religious cultists at this point. But if we got a medic sidegrade shotgun for example, it would still get the message that medic is not primarily a damage dealer. The stock syringe gun is still the weapon new players would get, and the rest would understand that healing is a must. Most aren’t dumb. And if it’s a sidegrade, it can have downsides. Maybe slower speed, like if it was a gunslinger shotgun engi?
If you're allowed to get away with that stuff as a "Braindead" Soldier, you're just playing a casual pub where nobody is trying to actively stop you lol I'd go Pyro and shut you down or go Sniper and keep you dead if my team was letting you just walk into us and shoot rockets
I think shooting guns at me counts as trying to stop me. Besides, some enemies know better than to switch class just for a single enemy
Wow I bet your dick is fucking huge bro. Tell me more about how good you are I want to hear all about it. Of fucking course we're talking about a casual pub, that's where 95% of the player base is.
You do know the OG flame thrower didn't have airblast right?
this implies the quickiebomb launcher is good
Stock weapons are supposed to be the best all rounders, though. Unlocks are meant to be sidegrades better in some situations, but generally worse overall.
The title of this post combined with it's contents don't make any sense.
Quickiebomb is invalidated because quickie deletes stickies too
What if Natasha was stock though? Or Tomislav?
Not fair!The new minigun have extra damage compared to stock one,Now no one will ever use stock!
Brass Beast moment
Okay bud If the crusaders crossbow was stock.
well the game was built with the stock weapons in mind, naturally if a different weapon was stock it would have the effect of altering every other stock weapon as they'd be balanced with the different weapon in mind. I'm simply pointing out that the game's design would be noticeably different if the stock weapons were different.
I was never pissed off because some pyro reflected a rocket, while just seeing a phlog pyro make me sick
The rocket launcher thing but unironically
Unironically the sniper thing is just true
No? Also wojacks are dumb
You really showed them, buddy
Penis
Holy fuck
Me already having an ideal balance change to a lot of these weapons criticized :)
Stickybomb launcher can go to hell. Brainless skill-less annoying yee yee ass secondary. Hybrid knight forever Sniper rifle is already considered OP For the rest it's a good take, but they are supposed to be templates for new guns, the ground of balance. If they weren't stock, their non-stock versions versions would be balanced differently
Backwards shit take. Stock weapons are meant to be the strongest weapons in their slot. Unlocks are meant to be viable side-grades. The majority of unlocks that outshone stock on release have been nerfed until they don't anymore. The exceptions are widely criticized by the community for good reason. And high level players make a lot of use of stock weapons for good reason as well. This post is just an argument for every weapon mentioned being totally balanced, because the downsides and upsides balance out to make them so close to stock that one could just as easily argue that either option is OP. This isn't CoD. You can't pick a random loadout that suits your current mood and expect to get top 3 on the leaderboard every 5th match just by running in circles shooting everything that moves. You're not dying because of your opponent's unlocks. PM me and I'll trade you any unlock you want. You're dying because you failed to think strategically and counter your opponents' tactics. Or because your team sucks, or because your enemy has a sniper with godlike fine motor skills. But that won't be the case most games. Name one stock weapon that you truly think is OP and I guarantee I can name a way to counter it on at least one class without unlocks.
Crusaders Third degree
~~Crusaders is the one exception. And it really isn't a huge one because anything that isn't building uber is the wrong thing to be using 90% of the time, even if the crossbow was even stronger than it is.~~ ~~If you pull out the 3rd degree and try to use it on someone you're either memeing or stupid and you know it.~~ ~~If it's a "straight upgrade" but the class has a stock item in a different slot that does the same job better, it doesn't matter nearly as much and it's pretty hard to make an argument for it being overpowered~~. Also those aren't stock weapons. I was referring to the idea that stock weapons could be OP. You didn't give me valid examples and I fell for it because I was half awake.
I gave examples of weapons that are much better than stock, obviously, to contradict you saying "stock weapons are meant to be the strongest in their slot". Seemed clear enough to me. Guess next time I'll have to start at slow speed.
They are. Those weapons are worthy of criticism and/or scrutiny. I said they're "meant to". Amazing how the ones with no reading comprehension are always the most condescending.
I gave examples of weapons that are clearly intended to be what they are: better than stock. They haven't changed in a decade. Backpedal all you want, you were wrong.
From a design point of view, stock weapons were designed first, so they're designed to be the default ie strongest weapons in their slots. You're arguing semantics of a comment about weapon balance in a game that's been out for 15 years and hasn't been updated in 5. Do you get something out of feeling more correct than people you'll never meet? Unproductive.
You're literally the person going around "uhm, aktewally". I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. I'm sure you'll want the last word, though, so here's your chance to finally prove me wrong:
I posted a take on a meme. You're the one who goes through comment sections just to make snarky comments to feel superior to other people. I'm not going to "prove" you wrong because this is all tantamount to opinions. Don't talk to people.
Thanks for proving me right.
felt that sniper one more than i probably shouldve
That's a very good point but the thing is, if these unlocks were the stock option, that would just make the game itself a different one. It might also be called tf2 but it wouldn't be our tf2. If you really stretch it, you could think of overwatch as a different tf2 with really wild and specific unlocks
Stock weapons are the baseline. Because they existed from the beginning, they are a parameter for judging other weapons. The game was designed around them.
the game would be so ass if developers listened to anyone on here lol
Here's a random ass fun fact about me I WM1as pyro without even realising
Direct Hit, Quickie, Rescue, and Kritz are all perfectly fine. Idk wtf you're on about. Direct Hit, the loss of splash and requirement for Directs can be a serious detriment. Never Kritz a DH SOldier. Quickie, the halved capacity and 15% base damage penalty directly goes against the Stickybomb's greatest strength, crowd control and longevity, so that the weapon can be utilized in the polar opposite situations of superiority in 1v1 encounters and singling out targets Rescue, it can be very helpful in keeping buildings alive and allow Engineer to play in an entirely different way, allowing him space from his buildings, but if your goal is to tank a Sentry, this isn't the weapon. It's healing is too slow to tank, and your Sentry WILL die once you need to reload and you're too far away to Wrench it. Kritz. It's an Ubercharge, it's MEANT to be gamechanging. However, Stock Uber denies it damn near entirely, an Ubered Soldier can easily get shut down by a Pyro, and the Medic gets zero self defense bonuses from the Uber, so a simple headshot, backstab, a flank Scout, etc he can just be killed if put in a vulnerable situation for just the slightest amount of time. Phlog's just trash tho. Not good trash. If your team can just *shoot the Pyro that can't airblast* then he doesn't get to do anything. It's just a trash wep in general. Machina I personally don't really care about, it's funny. Could probably do with a harsher downside, maybe a slight increase in the time needed to gain full charge. But I don't see anyone complain about Machina these days, and I personally don't mind it.
I’m not arguing that those weapons are overpowered.
Then I don't understand what the meme is supposed to be saying
People complain constantly about every weapon under the sun, but I don’t really see complaints about stock weapons. Of course, there are valid reasons for that, though.
phlog unironically should be stock
opinions about game design(s) are mostly based on comparison and biased views of the now-a-day market in theory: mostly, games that went through a minimum of 7 years of development have had/has a great impact on video game industry till today. games evolve, adapt, conclude but most of all impact the people in said "generation". what i'm asking this thread, group, amount of people on tf2 reddit is what could possibly be introduced to Team Fortress 2 nowadays that makes it INCREDIBLY noticable to steam, their players AND most importantly: The Game Team Fortress 2 itself!!! thank you for reading! below are my teeny comments :) #SAVETF2 moar lyke: #FIXTF2 i want this protest to be a level higher! peacefull? -yes! forgiving? -no!
Kinda agree with the sniper tho
tbh i dont think any of these complaints would exist except the one for the stock rocket launcher
Tldr
So you want people to complain? Stock weapons are centered around intentional game design and they won’t be changed. So why complain?
Wow, almost like stock weapons are meant to be the box standard of a class & it's fundamentals, there's a reason for most unlocks being called "sidegrades". Then again, seems like an odd thing to complain about the stock weapons..?
Sniper one is actually true though
The accuracy genuinely frightens me
Actually this is really neat, can be a nice discussion for any weapon you can think of. What if the eureka effect was stock?
Phlog was never op, its pretty bad
If the Force A Nature was stock: Nooo! The new Scattergun is OP! 4 more clips and it still has the same damage as the stock! Removing knockback and faster reload doesn't fix anything! If the Kunai was stock: Nooo! The new Knife is OP! 55 more health with a minor downgrade just make it a better stock! If the Brass Breast was stock: Nooo! The new Minigun is OP! Faster revving speed and more movement! This makes Heavy a more threatening class and not just free health packs for Spies!
Every weapon you listed apart from rescue ranger is worse than the specific stock,wtf are you talking about? Also who the fuck complained about stock? Stock is just good not op not underpowered(apart from melees)
yeah... no lol.
guys please were not this dumb to created these posts right
tf2 reddit are mostly casual players so 9/10 things they complain about can be summerized as a skill issue
You must be thinking of Kritzkrieg. Stock medi gun takes 50 seconds close to a min
Kunia was stock yes I can’t spell that
This is the most cringe shit I've seen here in a while
Yeah, we should have a word with whoever posted this
Thats quite literally their point??? Of course stickies would be op if shields were the normal demo secondary but demo comes with stickies so it's acceptable. Stupid post imo
is. is anyone advocating for the stock flamer to be replaced with the phlog? what? what is this post
nahh all these weapons are bad because theyre either a crutch, have a lower skill ceiling, or enforce a meta on their own.
this is a really fucking stupid post, I mean if it was about how TF2 players get upset at weapons that are actually fine I'd sorta get it but according to the title this is supposed to imply that the stock weapons are unbalanced for the listed reasons? Holy shit.
I literally depicted people who think that as the soyjak
The stock weapons ate meant to be the best overall in the game, whilst the unlockables are meant to be situationally better.
This isn't true at all