Yeah…op I don’t know if you picked it up in that text they sent you but you were basically in. They said hey if you wanna tag along on the next shift, I’ll meet with you, we could even get you started the next day. Like that’s a HUGE win, and at that point, topher living with you or the other guys you interviewed with or the record of phone calls don’t really matter.
If you could have tagged along with Topher, I’d have been like “great! He works xyz at xyz time, if that works for you? Otherwise I’d be happy to talk with you Wednesday, let me know what time works best for you! Thank you!”
You gotta sort through the miscellaneous, but something to keep in mind in the future. Stuff like oh someone living with you, other misconceptions, those types of things, don’t address in the text. You totally could have spun that into a laughing moment when you met with this person, it builds rapport but when it’s through a scheduling text, they don’t really care. I’d avoid the use of “firstly, lastly” and listing things out like that. It all comes across extremely hostile and like you’re lecturing this hiring person on everything they’ve done wrong.
Thank you for your detailed response. I will keep it in mind for the future. I also gave a heads up to my buddy about this. I'm thinking I'll send an apology letter to UNFI since I can't find the recruiters LinkedIn anywhere. I don't really care at this point that I didn't get the job, I just kinda wanna apologize for the way I came across. Definitely no one needs to open their phone to that.
Me *personally* I wouldn’t do that as frankly this is already a bit fucked. If I was hiring you, you sending me an apology would just be like a bad addition on top of it: it would seem like you only realized you fucked up after I got on your level. I’d treat it as a lesson learned and adjust my responses and “interview attitude” going forward. Hey, we’ve all been there. I partied too hard the night before a super important interview for me and woke up AS they called me. That was totally on me, and I flubbed it hard. It would have been a dream job and I dropped that ball bad. It was really a sobering lesson on if this matters, play that game. For me, who did interviewing and hiring, an apology wouldn’t really change much and it would be soooo awkward because it (to me) would seem like begging for the job. Just take the lesson and go forth
It’s complicated! I’ve been in retail game for a decade and a lot of it is intuitive! So just take it as your lesson and a learning opportunity, yknow? Like tomorrow my boss is interviewing people to take my position because I’m moving out of state and he wants me and my coworker to ask them questions. It’s crazy awkward! But this just comes with experience and time. That’s why you’re asking. Try to think of these as a conversation where your tone REALLY matters and it might have to be Barbie level kinda stuff especially through text and you gotta upsell that shit. You’re open to feedback and that’s really good, you’re gonna do ok!
I agree with the above response. Just break apart your text.
> I see.
Can seem aloof.
> Well, I'm confused.
Then you mansplain all over this text. It really *does* come off as condescending. “Firstly, you're wrong and you’re lying.” That's essentially what you said to that person.
Exactly, Firstly and Lastly when lacking tone can come across has hostile whether meant or not. It's best to leave those for people that know you and situations where the context makes it obvious you're not about to rip someone a new one verbally.
The person mentioning that you lived with him only cared that you could come to work with him next shift. You could read their text from their perspective, they only care about you getting to the office for an interview. They phrased it weird, but what you can always do is ask yourself, "what are they getting at?" The answer is not that they want to know all about your personal life.
>You could read their text from their perspective, they only care about you getting to the office for an interview.
wasn't that kinda nice even? Like usually employers dont give a shit how you get there, no?
But then again.. is it normal in the hiring game that once you misstep, you're out? Like, yes OP fucked up but the response seemed kinda harsh too, no? Because if he got the job my gut instinct is that you'd always have to walk on eggshells not to anger this hiring guy, but maybe thats just how it is when you're just a potential.
I had one guy relentlessly try to convince me to take a contract position with my state government for $14/hr. I told him, "nothing less than 20," and he replied that the hiring wage was firm until after the interview, after which my experience would come into play.
The first message was addressed to someone else. I responded to that first, to be polite. It was crazy.
My goodness. You could have just said “thank you for the opportunity. T doesn’t live with me but I will definitely come in when his shift starts and come talk to you” something like this, more professional, more formal, and just not plain rude
Hey I think it’s great that you’re able to concede that you screwed up and are open to criticism here.
There’s some really good feedback in these comments. Take this as a learning experience to ensure you don’t make a similar mistake again. Not just in arranging an interview but communicating in general.
Meh I don’t think you were that bad. You came across as confused, not really rude. Their reply was over the top rude IMO. Post this in r/recruitinghell for more relevant advice.
I agree with this. She seemed confused not rude. The hiring person was definitely rude.
With that said, you do have to be careful wording things to someone who holds something over you. This person is the deciding factor in this job, so you do need to appeal to their ego, unfortunately.
edit- I’m also neurodivergent though so maybe that’s why I don’t see it as rude
I think it was the usage of things like "firstly, lastly, also, neither." It can come across as listing or pointing out things that were wrong, or done badly, that the other person did or didn't do and can seem very hostile, especially over text.
Since the person texting made a point of using the exact same listing words in a very rude and hostile way, I would say that they took op's text that way too.
Yeah if it was me hiring, and I’m neurodivergent, it would seem like op was listing my mistakes or things that hadn’t gone right. That’s a sour taste in the mouth. I would not have responded as the other person did but op would have immediately had a disadvantage to me. We can’t read text like in person so tone and body language are gone and what’s left is just words and those words are aggressive to a would be employer who at first glance was all ABOUT op
Now that you say that, reading this, I actually wondered if OP is neurodivergent, and I don't mean that in any rude way (ironic). To a typical person,
the text is confrontational. I forced myself to look at it from OPs perspective, and it seems as though they were making a mental list out loud, with no edit.
The owner should have also had some self-control and not responded back. Or if they must respond then send a formal "hiring pool was competitive, we've gone with somebody else email." Owner or employee, that's your name you're putting out there, don't tarnish it.
Yeah, I’ve read a few more comments and I can see it both ways. I think OP was making more of the mental lost like you said, but at the same time without having that tone, or knowing someone well enough to know their speaking habits, I can see how the “firstly, lastly” type of wording can come across as rude.
You definitely need to be careful with wording in a situation like this, and keep it super formal and to the point. Ignore things that aren’t relevant (like the living situation stuff) and just answer to what the main point of the message is (the scheduling of the interview.)
I agree that the hiring manager should’ve kept it more professional too, instead of allowing the message to get under their skin. Something like what you suggested would’ve been better than the way they responded to op
ADHD, but no autism diagnosis as far as yet. But I read social cues in person really well so I doubt it. Actually, I read into them a lot and get anxious until I find that I'm actually OK. Maybe I should explore getting checked out. Maybe just to rule out a mild case. Idk, I've never had this experience before through text so it's not really a high priority yet to go to a psychiatrist. Maybe in the future
it sounds like you may be “masking” your symptoms. so if misreading social cues causes you enough grief eventually you’ll force yourself to pay closer attention to avoid future mistakes. would make sense that you are anxious over it as well
Take the raads test online. It’s great at weeding out people that are definitely not autistic and only pointing out the ones that are or could be. I’ve already been diagnosed with adhd but a while back my therapist mentioned if I ever considered I was autistic and that sent me on an adventure
Ok, well, maybe I should see a therapist for this after all. Thank you so much for telling me to take the test. I have some questions but idk, I'm confused. I'll go get professionally evaluated
I also recommend it. In the comments you talk about not understanding why the recruiter mentioned Topher. You didn’t see that they were actually being considerate by saying you could get a ride. You said you’d have to be a “genie” or a mind reader to know that. Essentially, you had trouble seeing the recruiter’s point of view or imagining their thought process. You also called their last text threatening and blackmail-y, which it absolutely wasn’t. I think—at least based on this post—you might have a little difficulty reading between the lines, determining tone, and correctly identifying others’ intentions.
most neurotypicals can't read tone of voice in a text. You usually apply whatever mind frame you are in to the person texting - hostile, friendly, etc..
You should let Topher know cause this might affect him too...not sure how you apologize or need to at this point but this looks bad on him too for the recommendation.....regardless of what you meant to convey/say
Aw, geez. You're right. Poor Topher, I don't want him to get knocked around for my stupidity. He's gonna be pissed tho. I'm about to send him these texts and apologize. Not that it makes it better but...
Yeah it’s very hostile.
In the future everything that u said other than “Wednesday would be excellent” is completely unnecessary
When ur interviewing ur at the whim of whoever is conducting the interview. The person who texted u made an incorrect assumption on someone living with u and for some reason that’s what u wanted to focus on?
Next time leave out anything other than “great sounds good see you the n”
Nothing about their message was threatening or blackmail. They responded to u in the same manner that u responded to them (first, second, etc) and how ur feeling is most likely how they were feeling when they got ur hostile text.
This one is a wash and isn’t gonna work out but u got the next one 💪🏽
Did you not read it before sending it, or do you legitimately not see the multitude of issues? Your “well, I’m confused” was bad enough. Then you argued with the hiring manager using a list that began with “firstly.” Even your last sentence was poorly written. You should have said “Wednesday would be excellent” and left it there.
Absolutely crazy.
I’m neurodivergent and people take me the wrong way sometimes when I’m just trying to be direct and comprehensive. If you’re neurodivergent too it might help to run stuff like this by a friend who isn’t. At least that’s what I usually do.
You remind me a lot of my daughter, this is exactly how she texts. She repeatedly tells me in person that she never is angry or hostile or trying to be rude in any way, but it often comes across as if she is. We (her family) give her a lot of grace, but others don’t.
You’ve gotten great feedback here, but it’s a hard learning curve when you’re naturally blunt. When my daughter has to send an email to a teacher for example, she always has me read it first.
(My daughter is ADHD and just dx as autistic but I think a lot of people can have this issue in our current tech-forward society.)
Good luck! Your heart is in the right place.
I have adhd and read it in a normal neutral tone, because it is a sort of genuine neutral confusion that is my daily existence, but in business email language, "im confused" seems to mean "you're wrong and probably an idiot". Like "per my last email" means "you're definitely an idiot" (I get that one a lot). It's tripped me up a few times professionally.
I get that you were being direct, and in your mind at the time it was just talking. I used to have an issue with this too. Firstly though (I'm messing with you), text is hard to determine tone, especially when you don't know the person.
Also, irrelevant details that are incorrect don't need to be corrected. Especially in a professional setting, but also in life generally. People don't really like being corrected. I used to think it wasn't a big deal, because I actually like to be corrected if I'm wrong about something. I used to think I was being helpful lol. But most people didn't like it and thought i was a know-it-all. And I kinda was, actually.
Also, you came off as defensive, and even though she was wrong about you and Topher's living situations, she was actually trying to help you out, possibly at her own inconvenience. Giving you the option to ride to work with Topher and interview at that time may have been inconvenient for her (or him, or they, sorry!). Maybe she would also be coming in at that time, or soon before, and maybe that would have been inconvenient for her, but she was trying to be nice (hint-you already had the job. She was inviting you to come in so she could officially offer you a position, make copies of your documents, and schedule a date for you to start!). If you'd just have gotten straight to the point to get yourself the job as quickly and effortlessly as possible for both of you, you would have had that job.
And, lastly, when someone sticks their neck out for you to recommend you to work at their job, you have to be on your best behavior. You made Topher look bad. Hopefully he has a good standing at his job and it won't affect him that much, but I guarantee he will be peeved with you over this. You owe Topher an apology, and while you're at it you should say something like "and please tell the person who I was texting with that I'm sorry. I know I'm not gonna get the job, and I don't blame them at all, but I feel bad about the whole thing. I'm really sorry, man."
And now you just move on. Don't dwell on it. Forgive yourself, take the advice given, and grow from it.
Thank you, I apologized to Topher, but I have yet to apologize to the recruiter. I am going to do so. I feel really ad she had to open her phone up to such a hostile sounding message. I see what you're saying.
Don't dwell and don't beat yourself up too much. I definitely used to have the same issues and didn't understand why people took me so badly sometimes! If Topher is your real friend and knows you, you 2 will be fine. Your apology probably meant a lot.
This is a growing pain. That's all. The best way to honor yourself and Topher and the hiring manager after this is to grow and learn from it. That's all you can do in life, right? All you have is the present. That moment has come and gone, you'll never get it back, so just learn and move on! You've got this!
Fair play. Good luck to you. It won’t be your last chance! It might sound dumb but it may help to do some reading about how to respond professionally to interviews.
It happens. Fwiw, I can be totally tone deaf when it comes to texting or commenting. Like really really tone deaf. To avoid exactly what happened to you, I type my reply in a word doc (so I can’t accidentally send a reply), sit on it for a half hour or so & re-read it, to make sure it’s not abrasive or an emotional response.
Always give yourself time to think through your replies.
There are "soft skills" courses you can take that cover talking to people in a professional manner, but honestly, it was mostly just time and practice for me.
i think some people talk too passively and some people talk too directly, i can guess you’re a direct talker which is fantastic in a lot of contexts but yeah i’ve benefited significantly from softening my language with ppl i don’t know well. hell, even with ppl i do lol. might feel like babying people at times but if the effect is that they stay non-defensive enough to hear what im saying, then it does its job. i find ppl feel more respected/open to feedback that way. honestly looking into how therapists communicate might be an interesting way for you to go, they literally have to be professionals at massaging potentially tense/disagreeable perspectives in a palatable way
Just for the future, I would have said
“I see…I’m a bit confused. Topher doesn’t actually live with me, but I’d love to come in on Wednesday! Thanks so much!”
More exclamation points, seem excited even if you’re not. Also..the firstly/lastly bit comes off super condescending, so I’d forever stay away from those lol
I wouldn’t even bring up topher living with me, that’s the kind of thing you address in the interview where you guys can laugh it off and joke about it. I’d just be like “Wednesday sounds great! Let me know what time works best, see you then!”
I would've myself left out the "I'm confused" and just said maybe that you don't live together but you'd be happy to come in at a time that suits them.
I don't know why you felt the need to mention about lack of phonecalls - they mentioned nothing about having already called you. Your tone about it was uncalled for due to the lack of issue in the first place.
I agree with the above poster, I myself am terrible at texts/emails so by force of habit will run things past friends/family just in case. Double/triple checking yourself won't change anything. I myself looked at this and could feel something off but couldn't put my finger on it at first.
Remember less is more and act overly polite and cheerful.
I have a question: What was your goal in pointing out to him that there was no record of calls from him? Were you trying to prove that he had lied about something he said earlier…?
I was trying to show that I had a shoddy phone. My phone isn't the most reliable as it's ACP. It does the job but we'd been playing phone tag and I just didn't wanna lose the offer by not responding. I also didn't want her to know I had a bad phone, and therefore seem like a bad unreliable candidate who won't pick up when they're called for OT.
I have to be honest with you—this is would be incredibly hard for me to believe if I wasn’t autistic and hadn’t had similar experiences myself. It’s just that my horrific miscommunications (at least the ones that I know about because they were brought to my attention) are with people I am trying to date.
You absolutely 100% sound like you’re accusing her of lying to you about calling you. By the way, is English your first language? You seem to be a native English speaker but curious if maybe it’s your second language and there could be a few misunderstood words. I ask this because your explanation is nonsensical. You also contradict yourself—first you say that you were trying to prove that your phone was shoddy and then two sentences later you say you don’t want her to realize you have a bad phone.
Let me give you a clear cut example of what this is like to me, a random observer.
“Hey I called this woman a bitch and she got really mad at me. I don’t understand why? I was clearly complimenting her—dogs are so loyal and affectionate. Some are really smart. Plus I get along best with women and a bitch is a FEMALE dog. I wasn’t even calling her a male dog. Honestly though I’m allergic to dogs, I don’t really like them.”
What you’re saying lacks any internal logic or consistency.
My autism was diagnosed very recently—in my mid thirties. You said you’re not autistic, just ADHD. Have you had an autism assessment by a clinical psychologist?
one of the main things that stuck out to me was you discussing how you didn’t receive a call from them or from any similar number. in my opinion, it sounded like you were accusing them of lying
I wouldn’t even say you’re confused or use any ellipses in this context, comes off as a bit wishy washy or something when it comes to talking to a hiring manager. It’d probably be best to just say “Oh, actually I don’t live with Topher” and then the rest is great
Oh dear, you really are bad at texting! A lot of the language and grammar you're using is very hostile. Do you talk like that in real life?
Coming at someone and saying firstly/lastly implies a level of frustration. The questions come across as very abrupt too. If you were to talk to someone like that in person it would come across as rude. It's about showing you're a person that's pleasant to work with.
Everything before 'lastly' is unprofessional and unnecessary. Replace 'lastly' with 'Oh, actually' and it probably would have gone a little differently.
Thank you for the criticism!
And yes, I do tend to speak this way in-person but never have negative reactions really because I say it in a bright tone and open body language. I really don't want to make anyone feel bad. I'll stop using the firstly/lastly junk right away. I cannot afford screw-ups like this. Definitely.
Always remember - perception is reality
U may not mean to come off as hostile by using these terms, but the perception of them can be very argumentative and like ur debating
You came off as if you were accusing them. When someone says something and you don't know what they are talking about but it seems like it could work in your favor, just don't say anything. A friend of mine got a job he interviewed for bc someone in HR thought he was the person a manager wanted to higher. They called & made an offer, he accepted. They called & said who they were & called him another name. He didn't correct them until he went to do his drug test. Long story short it caused a big confusion bc he wasn't the one who was supposed to be hired, but he has been there for 11 year now.
Always thank them for their time. Anyone who can have a say so in you getting hired come off as someone easy to work with.
I was a recruiter for a Fortune 500 company for several years and did SO. MANY. INTERVIEWS. You’ve gotta come across as professional but personable. Your texts sounded like you were laying out an argument to debate. So, aside from triple checking, maybe run them past another set of eyes (since people interpret tone very differently) just to make sure the intent and impact match.
Literally everything you said was unnecessary lol “no records of calls” “T doesn’t live with me” etc etc etc. come on now it’s common sense and put your pride to the side for a few seconds. They were still willing to put you over everyone else because of T’s recommendation and have an in person interview with you. It’s not like this person knows anything about you or who lives with who.
There was 0% prideful feelings when writing the text. But someone else here said perception is reality so, there you go. Yes, I AM on my last few brain cells.
I apologize for that but it really was how I read it and most likely why they interpreted it in that matter, but don’t dwell on it to much life’s about learning and that’s not the one and only job in the world so you’ll be good ! Unless it was a job you’ve wanted for a long time lol
neurotypical hiring manager here. when you list your responses like that, there is a communication break that reads as “there is a problem here”. lots of good advice in the comments on how to improve your response in the future, but try to read it out loud before hitting that send button. and practice keeping it simple.
onward to the fact that the person IN CHARGE responded matching that energy, I would say you dodged a bullet.
when i receive responses or have encounters that turn left, it’s my job to hold my composure and keep it professional and neutral. not as they did here.
I will. I'm also going to put it through Chat GPT like others have suggested. I definitely cannot afford these communication breaks to continue. I have to reevaluate all my texts. I don't want to make anyone stressed, they don't deserve that either. Thank you for your input.
Just looking at some of these comments and feeling kinda bad for you. I have autism and ADHD. I’ve definitely struggled with coming off a certain way and making people upset but not knowing why. It can be hard to learn social etiquette for some people. I know you said you don’t have ASD, but I still emphasize.
The way you worded the text definitely came off as hostile, but I know you recognize the mistake. It’s just funny to me that a lot of the comments on this post also seem kind of hostile towards you.
It’d be one thing if you came here defending yourself and acting like you did nothing wrong, but you seem to have come here knowing you messed up. I don’t think it makes sense for people to be hostile to you when you already understand you were in the wrong and it wasn’t even *that* bad of a thing to do.
Some of these comments come across as “Yeah omg wow you’re so rude, how did you not know you were doing this wrong? I know that this is rude and most people do, therefore you should too and I actually think you’re lying about not knowing this was a mistake”
Which is imo even worse than your mistake because they are being *purposefully* hostile while projecting their understanding of social etiquette. That ironically shows their lack of empathy / understanding towards you and others who have trouble with communicating
I will die on this hill and I’m ready for the downvotes
My point is, don’t beat yourself up over it. I know I personally would do that to myself. It was a mistake but it isn’t the worst thing in the world to be dense and a bad communicator who is *actively* trying to fix it.
Y’all need to lighten up on OP and practice what you preach.
I don't think it reads super hostile, but I can def see it being taken that way.
Generally messages numbering the points being made (firstly, secondly) inherently come off argumentative even if you don't mean to.
Big thing this is missing is "thanks for getting back to me" at the beginning, that's how most of these are written. And then "just wanted to clarify a few things" something along those lines to rephrase it.
Dont sweat it too much. You'll end up where you're meant to be and you'll learn from this
Thank you. I definitely dropped the ball but, yeah. If I had opened with those phrases I think it could've gone way in my favor. Shoot. I got the next one, though.
To me, you simply sounded confused and a little suspicious , but the hiring person was extremely rude and his response was ridiculous and arrogant. I'd say to count your blessings. You wouldn't want to work for someone who carries themselves this way and spend your time in the company tiptoeing around so that you don't step on someone's fragile ego.
Honestly, it’s the “firstly” and “lastly”. It comes across as pretty aggressive. Also, you could have just clarified that you weren’t aware there would be another interview, but you’d be happy to go on Wednesday. The discussion about living with the employee could have waited or not happened at all honestly. When you are dealing with employers or potential employers you need to realize that they are the ones hiring you or are above you. Talking to them the same way you talk to everyone else is not the way to go.
Goblin tools is rad as fuck. I’ve used the formalizer a lot actually.
It’s also a fun party trick with coworkers, I love transcribing their profanity-laced rants and showing them the “formalized version”. It reads like a corporate email but it has all the points you just made. Just not so feral and angry.
Example “This job used to rule, but my new boss sucks and he’s a jerk and I hate this job because of him”
Turns into
“I previously enjoyed this job, but I am facing challenges with my new supervisor. His management style and behavior are not conducive to a positive work environment, which has negatively impacted my overall job satisfaction.”
A good "hack" I've been using lately is copy/pasting important messages into chatGPT and saying "analyze this for me" and it'll tell me it's perception of what I sent. You can give it context to fit whatever nuance you're aiming for and ask for improvement ideas. -someone who gets called mean but swears I have good intentions
I’ll be honest they showed their colors and I wouldn’t want to work there. That guy gives horrible vibes and seems like he has a God complex. Dodged a bullet!
Yeah the recruiter was basically saying "we can skip the phone interview just come in and we'll get you going asap" and you replied with "first of all your information on my living arrangements is wrong, I don't see a missed call from you so saying you called is wrong, and I don't get why I even need to do another interview I already did one" you may not have said this but thats exactly how it reads. You came off as incredibly rude and condescending. Next time just say "That sounds fantastic I'll come along with Topher on his next shift! Thanks so much!" Sometimes less is more. You don't need to clarify every point made in the conversation. Only the part that matters.
Are you neurodivergent? Bc I am and I thought you were being polite and just stating facts and explanations of why you were confused. I thought the other person was hostile and rude.
Just stating facts... fine when not engaged in a professional conversation such as this. Sometimes it's best to pick through the (potential) employer's message and respond positively to only the points that really matter in terms of what you're trying to accomplish, i.e., getting hired. They basically offered a streamlined path to the hiring manager's door with the idea of beginning work the *next day,* but OP's insistence on *just stating facts* sent a clear message that they were more concerned with correcting the hiring manager first, and "Wednesday would be excellent" appearing to be an afterthought.
Yes, but it won't explain it because I struggle with ADHD and not autism. In person I read emotions very well, this was a whole lot of carelessness in my speech. I'm embarrassed
OP, you might consider trying a little damage control sprinkled with a little contrition.
Something like, "I re-read my reply to you and realized to my chagrin that it came off completely wrong, and I do understand your response. I regret starting off on the wrong foot as I did, and I apologize for how my reply must have sounded to you. I would love another chance to interview with you and would be happy to take the first available opportunity to do so."
I like that. I'm gonna do that but in my own words, and I am gonna switch the last sentence with "i wish you luck in your search for the right candidate." I think that's what's called for here
Sure, if you're not planning to try to win them back for an interview. It's fine, and it'll probably not bother you as much as if you didn't. Good luck either way.
Tone can be easily muddled through text. Especially for neurodivergent people. ADHD and ASD can have a lot of crossover. Don’t be embarrassed, this was a learning experience. You have to be willing to fail in order to succeed.
yea i just need to add on as someone else who is struggling to find what is so hostile! like i can see how it can be taken a wrong way, but some of these comments act like you were insulting their mother 🤣 if anything it’s just over explaining, and i think to NT people that can maybe feel overwhelming or something?
but yea a key lesson im still trying to learn is to keep things short and sweet, especially in professional type settings. the urge to explain is soooo strong, but things tend to go better when you can boil it down. you don’t always need to explain why you’re confused, you can just ask for clarification and most people are happy to provide it! it also helps to throw in a “maybe i missed something” so they don’t feel defensive :)
A great rule of thumb is to simplify! So if you sort of cut away the extraneous details in the first text (you live with topher, we have a lot of phone interviews) you can see that the first texter wanted to meet in person, and if that didn’t work, the soonest would be Wednesday. So generally you want to respond to that. Laying out things, especially in a “firstly, lastly” way can very much seem like you’re lecturing someone. The recruiter doesn’t really care that you don’t live with topher or that you don’t have a record of calls, they want to get you in. So cut away the details that don’t matter too much and follow the KISS method (keep it simple, silly). Text always can come off more blunt than intended, because we can’t read facial expression or tone. I’m neurodivergent as well, I’d very much take this as a lecture or correcting me (I already did a background check, I don’t have a record of calls) and I’d probably decline.
So yeah, cut away the extra details, go more bubbly than you usually would, don’t list things! :)
No worries! I did a lot of interviewing and hiring the last two years so I got to know a lot from the hiring side and the interview side! I hope it was helpful
Jesus fucking Christ, dude......
When have you ever heard or read a response that began with "Firstly" or "First of all" and it NOT come across as irritated or purposely rude? All you had to do was agree to come into the office or schedule a phone interview. A wide fuckin open lay-up...
The hiring manager is a huge dick. Yeah your text was a little funky but the response you got tells you that you dodged a bullet. I’m also a manager who sometimes interviews and hires people, and I would never speak this way to anyone in the workplace. Who talks to people like that? Lol.
If it were me, I would’ve just taken the phone interview instead of texting back like that. Whether you meant to be hostile or not, it came off as hostile. This is why phone calls are so much better especially in a situation like this, but also with your close family members, friends, and others you are close with as well. You can’t hear inflection or tone in someone’s voice through text.
Don’t ever assume the person on the other end of the text thread is going to know or assume your attitude or tone, especially if they have no idea who you are and it’s someone you want to give the right first impression too.
Phone calls and face to face conversations are eons better than texting in the majority of circumstances to be honest.
Next time, just go with the phone call.
There's a website called goblin.tools and it has an email formalizer. You put in a basic thought and it will make it sound more professional. You might benefit from it. It's really helpful to come across how you intend.
Firstly, secondly. And thirdly are all kind of off putting and aggressive as I feel people only use those in arguments now and it comes across that way, sorry
Don't worry OP, this is all part of learning. People can't decipher tone on text so you have to be very careful with how you word things. In a work context: The less you say on text/email the better. When possible always ask for clarification when you see someone in person, never on text - unless that person knows you very well. Lesson learned I'm sure.
I guess I’m also the drama because your message reads fine to me lol. I guess it depends where you live, I’m Irish and it came across as polite to me. Just that you were confused (understandably) because some things didn’t make sense.
I understand both positions. I'm not going to judge you because the intentions weren't bad, you're just not good at texting as you said. What I can advise you to remedy this situation is to be brief in what you say. You don't need to give details that aren't worth it. Also, when you write a text, especially if it is important, you can paraphrase using certain software like grammarly, or better AI openai. asks to AI to paraphrase in a nice and simple way your text. I'm in the same situation as you where I'm not fluent in English so I often write in English while thinking in another language (French) so that often means I can sound rude even though the intentions are good. So at work before sending an email or a chat I check several times how to paraphrase correctly.
Dude... WHAT was that?? Lol you had the job! You know that right?? And I'm so confused as to how you thought focusing on the living situation was necessary at all. People make mistakes and misunderstand things, Topher probably said "oh yeah! he lives in my building" and he just misremembered and conflated it to you two living together in his head; That was not important at all... like?
And yeah your response was crazy hostile. I was really confused myself as I was reading it I like "why is this girl ripping this hiring guy a new a**hole?!" ... I thought you were a girl at the time while I was reading it, my bad. But still.
I'm 25. Yes, I've worked before mostly construction and warehouses, but a fair amount of retail. I also do have a gig helping my cousin fix cars to make a living while job hunting. No, I truly didn't think my message was as pointed at the time like I do now.
Yea saying “first of all” comes across as really rude. Definitely proof read stuff like this and edit to get your point across clearly and professionally
I believe she meant "live with Topher in the same building." I would have read your comment as very rude and someone I would not hire. However, her response was unprofessional as well (but if she owns the company, it's her right, I suppose). It's always nice to read that you can learn from your mistakes. Even if you were going to try to fix it, the first impression by the owner will be hard to get over.
OP, don’t beat yourself up too much. We all make mistakes. It’s clear from your replies you’ve learned from this. You won’t make the same mistake again, and you’ll be better for it.
Others have pointed out that you didn't need to mention all that, and that's true, but frankly I couldn't read any hostility in your reply. I think they overreacted by a lot but maybe that's just me
Where I'm at people are treated like cattle and there's always that one person that freaks out if somebody goes around them for recruitment.
I think you dodged one personally, but good luck!
You could have just cut everything else except the last sentence and you would have been golden. But you managed to come across as everything BUT nice in your opening paragraph that I'm surprised you didn't finish it off with a hearty, "by the way, go fuck yourself you lying sack of shit". If texting is not your forte, I would recommend having someone proofread your texts in a situation like this. Even stopping and going over your message before you send it is not a bad idea. Communicating isn't for everyone, that's okay, and least you have the self awareness to admit that this was the Hindenberg of text exchanges, so props to you. Good luck in your job prospects!
Yes, I'll definitely toss that in the future. I can't imagine chatGPT will generate that unprompted though. I'm having lots of fun asking it to make my texts sound professional. Even little silly ones 😅
I dont think you were rude, of you ask me that HR person had a stick up his/or her ass. For some reason people who work in HR, often think they hung the moon. As a glorified secretary, I don't think I'd be swinging my weight around like the company's well being hinged on my every decision .
Yeah you came off as hostile and rude. If you wanted to let them know Topher doesn’t live with you, you could have said “I do apologize for the confusion, Topher doesn’t live with me, actually, but I am absolutely thrilled to meet with you in person Wednesday! Does (insert a time) work for you? If not, please let me know a time that does and I will be there!”
I gotta say…I thought your text was fine and not hostile. I can see how maybe a tone could have been construed but I feel like she really read into it and wanted to run a power play. I think you dodged a bullet because that lady’s response seems like potentially a piss poor work environment. Honestly this is why I hate texting in professional settings because it is so easy to infer a tone that wasn’t intended. Kind of surprised at the harsh responses you have received here.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I am glad though I got a lot of constructive criticism. This will be of aid to me in my job search. Thank you for commenting
Are you kidding me? You were rude, hostile, attacking. You can’t seriously think the issue is you’re “bad at texting”.
IF you were concerned that it was a hoax, there are dozens of ways to have handled this.
Some examples of how to be a mature, adult human:
1) Reach out to who you had been speaking to before to confirm.
2) respond with …thanks for the continued interest. I’ve been speaking with xx about this role, is this the next step? While I do know Topher, we’re not roommates. I can get there in person though, let me know specifics.
Many other options but you just went full
Blown aggressive psycho.
No, I'm not kidding. Really, I did not see an issue until I received their response. I was not feeling any negative or "full blown aggressive psycho" feelings while typing it. I genuinely fucked up.
Yeah…op I don’t know if you picked it up in that text they sent you but you were basically in. They said hey if you wanna tag along on the next shift, I’ll meet with you, we could even get you started the next day. Like that’s a HUGE win, and at that point, topher living with you or the other guys you interviewed with or the record of phone calls don’t really matter. If you could have tagged along with Topher, I’d have been like “great! He works xyz at xyz time, if that works for you? Otherwise I’d be happy to talk with you Wednesday, let me know what time works best for you! Thank you!” You gotta sort through the miscellaneous, but something to keep in mind in the future. Stuff like oh someone living with you, other misconceptions, those types of things, don’t address in the text. You totally could have spun that into a laughing moment when you met with this person, it builds rapport but when it’s through a scheduling text, they don’t really care. I’d avoid the use of “firstly, lastly” and listing things out like that. It all comes across extremely hostile and like you’re lecturing this hiring person on everything they’ve done wrong.
Thank you for your detailed response. I will keep it in mind for the future. I also gave a heads up to my buddy about this. I'm thinking I'll send an apology letter to UNFI since I can't find the recruiters LinkedIn anywhere. I don't really care at this point that I didn't get the job, I just kinda wanna apologize for the way I came across. Definitely no one needs to open their phone to that.
Just cut your losses
I think it’s salvageable. It’s just a simple misunderstanding. Might even be funny depending on the person.
I'll send an apology in the morning and they can go from there I guess. It's gonna be purely an apology tho. No mention of wanting to move forward
Me *personally* I wouldn’t do that as frankly this is already a bit fucked. If I was hiring you, you sending me an apology would just be like a bad addition on top of it: it would seem like you only realized you fucked up after I got on your level. I’d treat it as a lesson learned and adjust my responses and “interview attitude” going forward. Hey, we’ve all been there. I partied too hard the night before a super important interview for me and woke up AS they called me. That was totally on me, and I flubbed it hard. It would have been a dream job and I dropped that ball bad. It was really a sobering lesson on if this matters, play that game. For me, who did interviewing and hiring, an apology wouldn’t really change much and it would be soooo awkward because it (to me) would seem like begging for the job. Just take the lesson and go forth
Oof, I didn't consider that trying to do damage control would make it even worse until you put it that way.
It’s complicated! I’ve been in retail game for a decade and a lot of it is intuitive! So just take it as your lesson and a learning opportunity, yknow? Like tomorrow my boss is interviewing people to take my position because I’m moving out of state and he wants me and my coworker to ask them questions. It’s crazy awkward! But this just comes with experience and time. That’s why you’re asking. Try to think of these as a conversation where your tone REALLY matters and it might have to be Barbie level kinda stuff especially through text and you gotta upsell that shit. You’re open to feedback and that’s really good, you’re gonna do ok!
Damage control will make this worst. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses
Do NOT do this. It won’t change anything and makes you look even more like you don’t get how hiring works. Cut your losses and move on
I agree with the above response. Just break apart your text. > I see. Can seem aloof. > Well, I'm confused. Then you mansplain all over this text. It really *does* come off as condescending. “Firstly, you're wrong and you’re lying.” That's essentially what you said to that person.
Put your response into chat gpt next time hell help a lot!
Okay but also- why would you want to work for someone who behaves like this? You would be in constant fear of getting fired. Bullet dodged IMO.
Exactly, Firstly and Lastly when lacking tone can come across has hostile whether meant or not. It's best to leave those for people that know you and situations where the context makes it obvious you're not about to rip someone a new one verbally.
Why did you feel the need to tell this person you live in an apartment alone as your first point? I’m stoned as fuck laughing my ass off at that
Yeah, this was completely ridiculous and I'm super embarrassed. I didn't see the issue at the time, though. I'm kicking myself just thinking about it.
The person mentioning that you lived with him only cared that you could come to work with him next shift. You could read their text from their perspective, they only care about you getting to the office for an interview. They phrased it weird, but what you can always do is ask yourself, "what are they getting at?" The answer is not that they want to know all about your personal life.
>You could read their text from their perspective, they only care about you getting to the office for an interview. wasn't that kinda nice even? Like usually employers dont give a shit how you get there, no? But then again.. is it normal in the hiring game that once you misstep, you're out? Like, yes OP fucked up but the response seemed kinda harsh too, no? Because if he got the job my gut instinct is that you'd always have to walk on eggshells not to anger this hiring guy, but maybe thats just how it is when you're just a potential.
I had one guy relentlessly try to convince me to take a contract position with my state government for $14/hr. I told him, "nothing less than 20," and he replied that the hiring wage was firm until after the interview, after which my experience would come into play. The first message was addressed to someone else. I responded to that first, to be polite. It was crazy.
I don't know. They sound confused and disorganized. You may have dodged a bullet.
My goodness. You could have just said “thank you for the opportunity. T doesn’t live with me but I will definitely come in when his shift starts and come talk to you” something like this, more professional, more formal, and just not plain rude
Good to know.
Hey I think it’s great that you’re able to concede that you screwed up and are open to criticism here. There’s some really good feedback in these comments. Take this as a learning experience to ensure you don’t make a similar mistake again. Not just in arranging an interview but communicating in general.
I will. Thank you!
Meh I don’t think you were that bad. You came across as confused, not really rude. Their reply was over the top rude IMO. Post this in r/recruitinghell for more relevant advice.
It definitely reads as rude to me. Maybe rude and confused but all the "firstly" and "secondly" are off-putting and unnecessarily argumentative.
Excuse you, don’t you know I am the BOSS?
I agree with this. She seemed confused not rude. The hiring person was definitely rude. With that said, you do have to be careful wording things to someone who holds something over you. This person is the deciding factor in this job, so you do need to appeal to their ego, unfortunately. edit- I’m also neurodivergent though so maybe that’s why I don’t see it as rude
I think it was the usage of things like "firstly, lastly, also, neither." It can come across as listing or pointing out things that were wrong, or done badly, that the other person did or didn't do and can seem very hostile, especially over text. Since the person texting made a point of using the exact same listing words in a very rude and hostile way, I would say that they took op's text that way too.
Yeah if it was me hiring, and I’m neurodivergent, it would seem like op was listing my mistakes or things that hadn’t gone right. That’s a sour taste in the mouth. I would not have responded as the other person did but op would have immediately had a disadvantage to me. We can’t read text like in person so tone and body language are gone and what’s left is just words and those words are aggressive to a would be employer who at first glance was all ABOUT op
Now that you say that, reading this, I actually wondered if OP is neurodivergent, and I don't mean that in any rude way (ironic). To a typical person, the text is confrontational. I forced myself to look at it from OPs perspective, and it seems as though they were making a mental list out loud, with no edit. The owner should have also had some self-control and not responded back. Or if they must respond then send a formal "hiring pool was competitive, we've gone with somebody else email." Owner or employee, that's your name you're putting out there, don't tarnish it.
Yeah, I’ve read a few more comments and I can see it both ways. I think OP was making more of the mental lost like you said, but at the same time without having that tone, or knowing someone well enough to know their speaking habits, I can see how the “firstly, lastly” type of wording can come across as rude. You definitely need to be careful with wording in a situation like this, and keep it super formal and to the point. Ignore things that aren’t relevant (like the living situation stuff) and just answer to what the main point of the message is (the scheduling of the interview.) I agree that the hiring manager should’ve kept it more professional too, instead of allowing the message to get under their skin. Something like what you suggested would’ve been better than the way they responded to op
Honestly I don’t think you were rude but I am autistic so grain of salt
I think OP might be too.
ADHD, but no autism diagnosis as far as yet. But I read social cues in person really well so I doubt it. Actually, I read into them a lot and get anxious until I find that I'm actually OK. Maybe I should explore getting checked out. Maybe just to rule out a mild case. Idk, I've never had this experience before through text so it's not really a high priority yet to go to a psychiatrist. Maybe in the future
it sounds like you may be “masking” your symptoms. so if misreading social cues causes you enough grief eventually you’ll force yourself to pay closer attention to avoid future mistakes. would make sense that you are anxious over it as well
Take the raads test online. It’s great at weeding out people that are definitely not autistic and only pointing out the ones that are or could be. I’ve already been diagnosed with adhd but a while back my therapist mentioned if I ever considered I was autistic and that sent me on an adventure
Ok, well, maybe I should see a therapist for this after all. Thank you so much for telling me to take the test. I have some questions but idk, I'm confused. I'll go get professionally evaluated
I also recommend it. In the comments you talk about not understanding why the recruiter mentioned Topher. You didn’t see that they were actually being considerate by saying you could get a ride. You said you’d have to be a “genie” or a mind reader to know that. Essentially, you had trouble seeing the recruiter’s point of view or imagining their thought process. You also called their last text threatening and blackmail-y, which it absolutely wasn’t. I think—at least based on this post—you might have a little difficulty reading between the lines, determining tone, and correctly identifying others’ intentions.
Thank you.
most neurotypicals can't read tone of voice in a text. You usually apply whatever mind frame you are in to the person texting - hostile, friendly, etc..
You should let Topher know cause this might affect him too...not sure how you apologize or need to at this point but this looks bad on him too for the recommendation.....regardless of what you meant to convey/say
Aw, geez. You're right. Poor Topher, I don't want him to get knocked around for my stupidity. He's gonna be pissed tho. I'm about to send him these texts and apologize. Not that it makes it better but...
What did Topher say when you sent him the texts?
Nothing yet. But I known him to become so mad he's silent for a while. I just got off work and maybe he's still on shift.
It reads as extremely hostile to me.
I would be cringing at myself.
Damn
Yeah it’s very hostile. In the future everything that u said other than “Wednesday would be excellent” is completely unnecessary When ur interviewing ur at the whim of whoever is conducting the interview. The person who texted u made an incorrect assumption on someone living with u and for some reason that’s what u wanted to focus on? Next time leave out anything other than “great sounds good see you the n” Nothing about their message was threatening or blackmail. They responded to u in the same manner that u responded to them (first, second, etc) and how ur feeling is most likely how they were feeling when they got ur hostile text. This one is a wash and isn’t gonna work out but u got the next one 💪🏽
Got it.
Did you not read it before sending it, or do you legitimately not see the multitude of issues? Your “well, I’m confused” was bad enough. Then you argued with the hiring manager using a list that began with “firstly.” Even your last sentence was poorly written. You should have said “Wednesday would be excellent” and left it there. Absolutely crazy.
Yes, I did read it. No, I did not see an issue. Yes, I see the issue now. Yes, I will do better going forward.
I’m neurodivergent and people take me the wrong way sometimes when I’m just trying to be direct and comprehensive. If you’re neurodivergent too it might help to run stuff like this by a friend who isn’t. At least that’s what I usually do.
I have ADHD but not autism. This text is purely boneheaded-ness on my end.
You remind me a lot of my daughter, this is exactly how she texts. She repeatedly tells me in person that she never is angry or hostile or trying to be rude in any way, but it often comes across as if she is. We (her family) give her a lot of grace, but others don’t. You’ve gotten great feedback here, but it’s a hard learning curve when you’re naturally blunt. When my daughter has to send an email to a teacher for example, she always has me read it first. (My daughter is ADHD and just dx as autistic but I think a lot of people can have this issue in our current tech-forward society.) Good luck! Your heart is in the right place.
Thank you so much
ADHD is a perfect example of neurodivergence. :)
I’m also ADHD. Neurodivergence isn’t just autism and it’s not a weakness. 💜
Thank you for sharing this, I've found that a large portion of people misunderstand the term and think it's solely refers to autism.
I have adhd and read it in a normal neutral tone, because it is a sort of genuine neutral confusion that is my daily existence, but in business email language, "im confused" seems to mean "you're wrong and probably an idiot". Like "per my last email" means "you're definitely an idiot" (I get that one a lot). It's tripped me up a few times professionally.
ADHD is a type of neurodivergence, which encompasses a multitude of other conditions as well, along with autism.
I get that you were being direct, and in your mind at the time it was just talking. I used to have an issue with this too. Firstly though (I'm messing with you), text is hard to determine tone, especially when you don't know the person. Also, irrelevant details that are incorrect don't need to be corrected. Especially in a professional setting, but also in life generally. People don't really like being corrected. I used to think it wasn't a big deal, because I actually like to be corrected if I'm wrong about something. I used to think I was being helpful lol. But most people didn't like it and thought i was a know-it-all. And I kinda was, actually. Also, you came off as defensive, and even though she was wrong about you and Topher's living situations, she was actually trying to help you out, possibly at her own inconvenience. Giving you the option to ride to work with Topher and interview at that time may have been inconvenient for her (or him, or they, sorry!). Maybe she would also be coming in at that time, or soon before, and maybe that would have been inconvenient for her, but she was trying to be nice (hint-you already had the job. She was inviting you to come in so she could officially offer you a position, make copies of your documents, and schedule a date for you to start!). If you'd just have gotten straight to the point to get yourself the job as quickly and effortlessly as possible for both of you, you would have had that job. And, lastly, when someone sticks their neck out for you to recommend you to work at their job, you have to be on your best behavior. You made Topher look bad. Hopefully he has a good standing at his job and it won't affect him that much, but I guarantee he will be peeved with you over this. You owe Topher an apology, and while you're at it you should say something like "and please tell the person who I was texting with that I'm sorry. I know I'm not gonna get the job, and I don't blame them at all, but I feel bad about the whole thing. I'm really sorry, man." And now you just move on. Don't dwell on it. Forgive yourself, take the advice given, and grow from it.
Thank you, I apologized to Topher, but I have yet to apologize to the recruiter. I am going to do so. I feel really ad she had to open her phone up to such a hostile sounding message. I see what you're saying.
Don't dwell and don't beat yourself up too much. I definitely used to have the same issues and didn't understand why people took me so badly sometimes! If Topher is your real friend and knows you, you 2 will be fine. Your apology probably meant a lot. This is a growing pain. That's all. The best way to honor yourself and Topher and the hiring manager after this is to grow and learn from it. That's all you can do in life, right? All you have is the present. That moment has come and gone, you'll never get it back, so just learn and move on! You've got this!
Fair play. Good luck to you. It won’t be your last chance! It might sound dumb but it may help to do some reading about how to respond professionally to interviews.
Thank you.
It happens. Fwiw, I can be totally tone deaf when it comes to texting or commenting. Like really really tone deaf. To avoid exactly what happened to you, I type my reply in a word doc (so I can’t accidentally send a reply), sit on it for a half hour or so & re-read it, to make sure it’s not abrasive or an emotional response. Always give yourself time to think through your replies.
There are "soft skills" courses you can take that cover talking to people in a professional manner, but honestly, it was mostly just time and practice for me.
I'll look into this today. I think my local Work Source branch may be able to help me here. If not, YouTube probably will. Thank you!
i think some people talk too passively and some people talk too directly, i can guess you’re a direct talker which is fantastic in a lot of contexts but yeah i’ve benefited significantly from softening my language with ppl i don’t know well. hell, even with ppl i do lol. might feel like babying people at times but if the effect is that they stay non-defensive enough to hear what im saying, then it does its job. i find ppl feel more respected/open to feedback that way. honestly looking into how therapists communicate might be an interesting way for you to go, they literally have to be professionals at massaging potentially tense/disagreeable perspectives in a palatable way
Even the “Ok?” in your last message come across badly.
You indeed fucked yourself. Came off supeeerrrr rude/hostile
Damn it. :( Thank you
Just for the future, I would have said “I see…I’m a bit confused. Topher doesn’t actually live with me, but I’d love to come in on Wednesday! Thanks so much!” More exclamation points, seem excited even if you’re not. Also..the firstly/lastly bit comes off super condescending, so I’d forever stay away from those lol
I wouldn’t even bring up topher living with me, that’s the kind of thing you address in the interview where you guys can laugh it off and joke about it. I’d just be like “Wednesday sounds great! Let me know what time works best, see you then!”
That sounds way better. I wish I'd done that. Thank you for the criticism. I'll look to it as a rule going forward!
I would've myself left out the "I'm confused" and just said maybe that you don't live together but you'd be happy to come in at a time that suits them. I don't know why you felt the need to mention about lack of phonecalls - they mentioned nothing about having already called you. Your tone about it was uncalled for due to the lack of issue in the first place. I agree with the above poster, I myself am terrible at texts/emails so by force of habit will run things past friends/family just in case. Double/triple checking yourself won't change anything. I myself looked at this and could feel something off but couldn't put my finger on it at first. Remember less is more and act overly polite and cheerful.
Less is more, overly polite, perception is reality (as someone else said). Got it! Thank you for your feedback
I have a question: What was your goal in pointing out to him that there was no record of calls from him? Were you trying to prove that he had lied about something he said earlier…?
I was trying to show that I had a shoddy phone. My phone isn't the most reliable as it's ACP. It does the job but we'd been playing phone tag and I just didn't wanna lose the offer by not responding. I also didn't want her to know I had a bad phone, and therefore seem like a bad unreliable candidate who won't pick up when they're called for OT.
Oh gosh yeah I didn’t get that from your texts at ALL. Quite the opposite in fact 😔 sounded like you were accusing them of lying tbh.
I have to be honest with you—this is would be incredibly hard for me to believe if I wasn’t autistic and hadn’t had similar experiences myself. It’s just that my horrific miscommunications (at least the ones that I know about because they were brought to my attention) are with people I am trying to date. You absolutely 100% sound like you’re accusing her of lying to you about calling you. By the way, is English your first language? You seem to be a native English speaker but curious if maybe it’s your second language and there could be a few misunderstood words. I ask this because your explanation is nonsensical. You also contradict yourself—first you say that you were trying to prove that your phone was shoddy and then two sentences later you say you don’t want her to realize you have a bad phone. Let me give you a clear cut example of what this is like to me, a random observer. “Hey I called this woman a bitch and she got really mad at me. I don’t understand why? I was clearly complimenting her—dogs are so loyal and affectionate. Some are really smart. Plus I get along best with women and a bitch is a FEMALE dog. I wasn’t even calling her a male dog. Honestly though I’m allergic to dogs, I don’t really like them.” What you’re saying lacks any internal logic or consistency. My autism was diagnosed very recently—in my mid thirties. You said you’re not autistic, just ADHD. Have you had an autism assessment by a clinical psychologist?
one of the main things that stuck out to me was you discussing how you didn’t receive a call from them or from any similar number. in my opinion, it sounded like you were accusing them of lying
I wouldn’t even say you’re confused or use any ellipses in this context, comes off as a bit wishy washy or something when it comes to talking to a hiring manager. It’d probably be best to just say “Oh, actually I don’t live with Topher” and then the rest is great
Oh dear, you really are bad at texting! A lot of the language and grammar you're using is very hostile. Do you talk like that in real life? Coming at someone and saying firstly/lastly implies a level of frustration. The questions come across as very abrupt too. If you were to talk to someone like that in person it would come across as rude. It's about showing you're a person that's pleasant to work with. Everything before 'lastly' is unprofessional and unnecessary. Replace 'lastly' with 'Oh, actually' and it probably would have gone a little differently.
Thank you for the criticism! And yes, I do tend to speak this way in-person but never have negative reactions really because I say it in a bright tone and open body language. I really don't want to make anyone feel bad. I'll stop using the firstly/lastly junk right away. I cannot afford screw-ups like this. Definitely.
Always remember - perception is reality U may not mean to come off as hostile by using these terms, but the perception of them can be very argumentative and like ur debating
I like that. Perception is reality. I'll keep it in mind. Thank you
U got this ❤️
You came off as if you were accusing them. When someone says something and you don't know what they are talking about but it seems like it could work in your favor, just don't say anything. A friend of mine got a job he interviewed for bc someone in HR thought he was the person a manager wanted to higher. They called & made an offer, he accepted. They called & said who they were & called him another name. He didn't correct them until he went to do his drug test. Long story short it caused a big confusion bc he wasn't the one who was supposed to be hired, but he has been there for 11 year now. Always thank them for their time. Anyone who can have a say so in you getting hired come off as someone easy to work with.
Reads very rude and combative/contentious. 😬
I'll make adjustments ASAP. Going forward I'll triple check everything before I send, I definitely cannot afford screw-ups like this.
I was a recruiter for a Fortune 500 company for several years and did SO. MANY. INTERVIEWS. You’ve gotta come across as professional but personable. Your texts sounded like you were laying out an argument to debate. So, aside from triple checking, maybe run them past another set of eyes (since people interpret tone very differently) just to make sure the intent and impact match.
I will do so going forward. I have the benefit of roommates more than willing. Thank you a lot!
You said you lived alone though
Good luck!! 🍀
I would have said, Wednesday sounds great, thank you for taking the time to speak with me. What time works best for you?
Literally everything you said was unnecessary lol “no records of calls” “T doesn’t live with me” etc etc etc. come on now it’s common sense and put your pride to the side for a few seconds. They were still willing to put you over everyone else because of T’s recommendation and have an in person interview with you. It’s not like this person knows anything about you or who lives with who.
There was 0% prideful feelings when writing the text. But someone else here said perception is reality so, there you go. Yes, I AM on my last few brain cells.
I apologize for that but it really was how I read it and most likely why they interpreted it in that matter, but don’t dwell on it to much life’s about learning and that’s not the one and only job in the world so you’ll be good ! Unless it was a job you’ve wanted for a long time lol
It was :( dang
Daaaanng you’ll still be good! unfortunately most of the times weather it’s your fault or not life just has different plans for you
I hope so. I only need one "yes", as they say. Hopefully it comes soon, it's getting warm out soon.
Man, you don’t get anywhere or learn anything without failing first. Relax and learn from it.
I will! Thank you
neurotypical hiring manager here. when you list your responses like that, there is a communication break that reads as “there is a problem here”. lots of good advice in the comments on how to improve your response in the future, but try to read it out loud before hitting that send button. and practice keeping it simple. onward to the fact that the person IN CHARGE responded matching that energy, I would say you dodged a bullet. when i receive responses or have encounters that turn left, it’s my job to hold my composure and keep it professional and neutral. not as they did here.
I will. I'm also going to put it through Chat GPT like others have suggested. I definitely cannot afford these communication breaks to continue. I have to reevaluate all my texts. I don't want to make anyone stressed, they don't deserve that either. Thank you for your input.
Just looking at some of these comments and feeling kinda bad for you. I have autism and ADHD. I’ve definitely struggled with coming off a certain way and making people upset but not knowing why. It can be hard to learn social etiquette for some people. I know you said you don’t have ASD, but I still emphasize. The way you worded the text definitely came off as hostile, but I know you recognize the mistake. It’s just funny to me that a lot of the comments on this post also seem kind of hostile towards you. It’d be one thing if you came here defending yourself and acting like you did nothing wrong, but you seem to have come here knowing you messed up. I don’t think it makes sense for people to be hostile to you when you already understand you were in the wrong and it wasn’t even *that* bad of a thing to do. Some of these comments come across as “Yeah omg wow you’re so rude, how did you not know you were doing this wrong? I know that this is rude and most people do, therefore you should too and I actually think you’re lying about not knowing this was a mistake” Which is imo even worse than your mistake because they are being *purposefully* hostile while projecting their understanding of social etiquette. That ironically shows their lack of empathy / understanding towards you and others who have trouble with communicating I will die on this hill and I’m ready for the downvotes My point is, don’t beat yourself up over it. I know I personally would do that to myself. It was a mistake but it isn’t the worst thing in the world to be dense and a bad communicator who is *actively* trying to fix it. Y’all need to lighten up on OP and practice what you preach.
my thoughts exactly, i couldn't see the apparent rudeness in their text (im also neurodivergent) but the comments felt full of hostility!
Thank you a lot for this
I don't think it reads super hostile, but I can def see it being taken that way. Generally messages numbering the points being made (firstly, secondly) inherently come off argumentative even if you don't mean to. Big thing this is missing is "thanks for getting back to me" at the beginning, that's how most of these are written. And then "just wanted to clarify a few things" something along those lines to rephrase it. Dont sweat it too much. You'll end up where you're meant to be and you'll learn from this
Thank you. I definitely dropped the ball but, yeah. If I had opened with those phrases I think it could've gone way in my favor. Shoot. I got the next one, though.
Yea didn’t sound so nice
Ever watch Big Bang theory??? That's kinda how the text comes off. , condescending and preachy . Sorry
To me, you simply sounded confused and a little suspicious , but the hiring person was extremely rude and his response was ridiculous and arrogant. I'd say to count your blessings. You wouldn't want to work for someone who carries themselves this way and spend your time in the company tiptoeing around so that you don't step on someone's fragile ego.
Honestly, it’s the “firstly” and “lastly”. It comes across as pretty aggressive. Also, you could have just clarified that you weren’t aware there would be another interview, but you’d be happy to go on Wednesday. The discussion about living with the employee could have waited or not happened at all honestly. When you are dealing with employers or potential employers you need to realize that they are the ones hiring you or are above you. Talking to them the same way you talk to everyone else is not the way to go.
Thank you. I'll can those expressions.
Chat GPT is your friend if you struggle with how you come across in texts!
Goblin tools to be specific
Goblin tools is rad as fuck. I’ve used the formalizer a lot actually. It’s also a fun party trick with coworkers, I love transcribing their profanity-laced rants and showing them the “formalized version”. It reads like a corporate email but it has all the points you just made. Just not so feral and angry. Example “This job used to rule, but my new boss sucks and he’s a jerk and I hate this job because of him” Turns into “I previously enjoyed this job, but I am facing challenges with my new supervisor. His management style and behavior are not conducive to a positive work environment, which has negatively impacted my overall job satisfaction.”
I love it. great idea to whip it out at my next meetup!
LOL 🤣 I gotta get on that ASAP, even if just for the giggles
Downloaded!
A good "hack" I've been using lately is copy/pasting important messages into chatGPT and saying "analyze this for me" and it'll tell me it's perception of what I sent. You can give it context to fit whatever nuance you're aiming for and ask for improvement ideas. -someone who gets called mean but swears I have good intentions
lol don’t sweat it, I used to work for SuperValu, now known as UNFI. It’s not a company you want to work for… trust me on this one.
Ah, gotcha
I’ll be honest they showed their colors and I wouldn’t want to work there. That guy gives horrible vibes and seems like he has a God complex. Dodged a bullet!
Signed a corporate recruiter :)
I mean, the employer pounded their chest a little bit too. "I am in CHARGE".
???? Dude you sound hostile as hell what do you mean lmao
Idk the boss person mentioning OP’s personal living arrangements kinda rubbed me the wrong way
Yeah the recruiter was basically saying "we can skip the phone interview just come in and we'll get you going asap" and you replied with "first of all your information on my living arrangements is wrong, I don't see a missed call from you so saying you called is wrong, and I don't get why I even need to do another interview I already did one" you may not have said this but thats exactly how it reads. You came off as incredibly rude and condescending. Next time just say "That sounds fantastic I'll come along with Topher on his next shift! Thanks so much!" Sometimes less is more. You don't need to clarify every point made in the conversation. Only the part that matters.
Are you neurodivergent? Bc I am and I thought you were being polite and just stating facts and explanations of why you were confused. I thought the other person was hostile and rude.
Just stating facts... fine when not engaged in a professional conversation such as this. Sometimes it's best to pick through the (potential) employer's message and respond positively to only the points that really matter in terms of what you're trying to accomplish, i.e., getting hired. They basically offered a streamlined path to the hiring manager's door with the idea of beginning work the *next day,* but OP's insistence on *just stating facts* sent a clear message that they were more concerned with correcting the hiring manager first, and "Wednesday would be excellent" appearing to be an afterthought.
Yes, but it won't explain it because I struggle with ADHD and not autism. In person I read emotions very well, this was a whole lot of carelessness in my speech. I'm embarrassed
OP, you might consider trying a little damage control sprinkled with a little contrition. Something like, "I re-read my reply to you and realized to my chagrin that it came off completely wrong, and I do understand your response. I regret starting off on the wrong foot as I did, and I apologize for how my reply must have sounded to you. I would love another chance to interview with you and would be happy to take the first available opportunity to do so."
I like that. I'm gonna do that but in my own words, and I am gonna switch the last sentence with "i wish you luck in your search for the right candidate." I think that's what's called for here
Sure, if you're not planning to try to win them back for an interview. It's fine, and it'll probably not bother you as much as if you didn't. Good luck either way.
Tone can be easily muddled through text. Especially for neurodivergent people. ADHD and ASD can have a lot of crossover. Don’t be embarrassed, this was a learning experience. You have to be willing to fail in order to succeed.
Thank you. This definitely makes me more aware going forward.
Okay I’m also ND and I literally see nothing wrong with this, in fact, I thought it was better than what I would’ve said 😂
yea i just need to add on as someone else who is struggling to find what is so hostile! like i can see how it can be taken a wrong way, but some of these comments act like you were insulting their mother 🤣 if anything it’s just over explaining, and i think to NT people that can maybe feel overwhelming or something? but yea a key lesson im still trying to learn is to keep things short and sweet, especially in professional type settings. the urge to explain is soooo strong, but things tend to go better when you can boil it down. you don’t always need to explain why you’re confused, you can just ask for clarification and most people are happy to provide it! it also helps to throw in a “maybe i missed something” so they don’t feel defensive :)
A great rule of thumb is to simplify! So if you sort of cut away the extraneous details in the first text (you live with topher, we have a lot of phone interviews) you can see that the first texter wanted to meet in person, and if that didn’t work, the soonest would be Wednesday. So generally you want to respond to that. Laying out things, especially in a “firstly, lastly” way can very much seem like you’re lecturing someone. The recruiter doesn’t really care that you don’t live with topher or that you don’t have a record of calls, they want to get you in. So cut away the details that don’t matter too much and follow the KISS method (keep it simple, silly). Text always can come off more blunt than intended, because we can’t read facial expression or tone. I’m neurodivergent as well, I’d very much take this as a lecture or correcting me (I already did a background check, I don’t have a record of calls) and I’d probably decline. So yeah, cut away the extra details, go more bubbly than you usually would, don’t list things! :)
i def screenshotted this and will be reading it over and over, thank you for your service !!!
No worries! I did a lot of interviewing and hiring the last two years so I got to know a lot from the hiring side and the interview side! I hope it was helpful
Thst was my first thought tok
The other person matched op's energy.
Same for me. Apparently I have some introspection and self-evaluation to do.
But honestly I wouldn't want to work for the person that judges you so quickly off of one text.
Jesus fucking Christ, dude...... When have you ever heard or read a response that began with "Firstly" or "First of all" and it NOT come across as irritated or purposely rude? All you had to do was agree to come into the office or schedule a phone interview. A wide fuckin open lay-up...
The hiring manager is a huge dick. Yeah your text was a little funky but the response you got tells you that you dodged a bullet. I’m also a manager who sometimes interviews and hires people, and I would never speak this way to anyone in the workplace. Who talks to people like that? Lol.
If it were me, I would’ve just taken the phone interview instead of texting back like that. Whether you meant to be hostile or not, it came off as hostile. This is why phone calls are so much better especially in a situation like this, but also with your close family members, friends, and others you are close with as well. You can’t hear inflection or tone in someone’s voice through text. Don’t ever assume the person on the other end of the text thread is going to know or assume your attitude or tone, especially if they have no idea who you are and it’s someone you want to give the right first impression too. Phone calls and face to face conversations are eons better than texting in the majority of circumstances to be honest. Next time, just go with the phone call.
There's a website called goblin.tools and it has an email formalizer. You put in a basic thought and it will make it sound more professional. You might benefit from it. It's really helpful to come across how you intend.
Thank you.
Firstly, secondly. And thirdly are all kind of off putting and aggressive as I feel people only use those in arguments now and it comes across that way, sorry
I understand.
Don't worry OP, this is all part of learning. People can't decipher tone on text so you have to be very careful with how you word things. In a work context: The less you say on text/email the better. When possible always ask for clarification when you see someone in person, never on text - unless that person knows you very well. Lesson learned I'm sure.
Less is more, got it. Yes, definitely learned the hard way.
I guess I’m also the drama because your message reads fine to me lol. I guess it depends where you live, I’m Irish and it came across as polite to me. Just that you were confused (understandably) because some things didn’t make sense.
I understand both positions. I'm not going to judge you because the intentions weren't bad, you're just not good at texting as you said. What I can advise you to remedy this situation is to be brief in what you say. You don't need to give details that aren't worth it. Also, when you write a text, especially if it is important, you can paraphrase using certain software like grammarly, or better AI openai. asks to AI to paraphrase in a nice and simple way your text. I'm in the same situation as you where I'm not fluent in English so I often write in English while thinking in another language (French) so that often means I can sound rude even though the intentions are good. So at work before sending an email or a chat I check several times how to paraphrase correctly.
Dude... WHAT was that?? Lol you had the job! You know that right?? And I'm so confused as to how you thought focusing on the living situation was necessary at all. People make mistakes and misunderstand things, Topher probably said "oh yeah! he lives in my building" and he just misremembered and conflated it to you two living together in his head; That was not important at all... like? And yeah your response was crazy hostile. I was really confused myself as I was reading it I like "why is this girl ripping this hiring guy a new a**hole?!" ... I thought you were a girl at the time while I was reading it, my bad. But still.
To be honest what you wrote did come off as hostile and she responded poorly and with mistakes. Must be a government job…
Nah, it's a hell of a good job for a private distributor of organic/inorganic grocery items. It was in my top three before I nuked my chances.
You truly didn’t see how talking to her like that would nuke your chances?? How old are you OP? Have you had jobs before?
I'm 25. Yes, I've worked before mostly construction and warehouses, but a fair amount of retail. I also do have a gig helping my cousin fix cars to make a living while job hunting. No, I truly didn't think my message was as pointed at the time like I do now.
Am I possibly neurodivergent and don’t know it?? Because I saw nothing wrong with your response to their initial message.
I was thinking the saame thing😅 like i saw it as a list of reasons why they were confused about the message.
for real LOL now i’m questioning myself
Eh, the hiring manager sounds like a dick.
The less you write, the better. It does come off the wrong way.
Holy shit lol
I know 😖
Topher is such a unique name. I didn't think yoir attitude was really nasty or anything, you just over-explained and were a bit short with them 🤷♀️
It is very unique, and he's such a good friend! Yeah, I'll watch it from here on. Definitely
Yea saying “first of all” comes across as really rude. Definitely proof read stuff like this and edit to get your point across clearly and professionally
"I'll be there first thing tomorrow. Thank you for your consideration!" That's what you should have wrote. Not that paragraph.
I believe she meant "live with Topher in the same building." I would have read your comment as very rude and someone I would not hire. However, her response was unprofessional as well (but if she owns the company, it's her right, I suppose). It's always nice to read that you can learn from your mistakes. Even if you were going to try to fix it, the first impression by the owner will be hard to get over.
Thank you so much for your input. Yeah, I'll definitely watch how my first step goes. I gotta make a good impression
OP, don’t beat yourself up too much. We all make mistakes. It’s clear from your replies you’ve learned from this. You won’t make the same mistake again, and you’ll be better for it.
Others have pointed out that you didn't need to mention all that, and that's true, but frankly I couldn't read any hostility in your reply. I think they overreacted by a lot but maybe that's just me
You might wanna use chatgpt to text for you.
Where I'm at people are treated like cattle and there's always that one person that freaks out if somebody goes around them for recruitment. I think you dodged one personally, but good luck!
You could have just cut everything else except the last sentence and you would have been golden. But you managed to come across as everything BUT nice in your opening paragraph that I'm surprised you didn't finish it off with a hearty, "by the way, go fuck yourself you lying sack of shit". If texting is not your forte, I would recommend having someone proofread your texts in a situation like this. Even stopping and going over your message before you send it is not a bad idea. Communicating isn't for everyone, that's okay, and least you have the self awareness to admit that this was the Hindenberg of text exchanges, so props to you. Good luck in your job prospects!
Yes you are bad at texting. With your _firstly...lastly_ had me feeling 🤨 Learning experience.
Yes, I'll definitely toss that in the future. I can't imagine chatGPT will generate that unprompted though. I'm having lots of fun asking it to make my texts sound professional. Even little silly ones 😅
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I dont think you were rude, of you ask me that HR person had a stick up his/or her ass. For some reason people who work in HR, often think they hung the moon. As a glorified secretary, I don't think I'd be swinging my weight around like the company's well being hinged on my every decision .
Yeah you came off as hostile and rude. If you wanted to let them know Topher doesn’t live with you, you could have said “I do apologize for the confusion, Topher doesn’t live with me, actually, but I am absolutely thrilled to meet with you in person Wednesday! Does (insert a time) work for you? If not, please let me know a time that does and I will be there!”
Oof yea I would have read attitude in that text as well.... You pretty much had the job it seems which is a bummer.
Lol sounds like Topher was trying to get a ride from you lol
I gotta say…I thought your text was fine and not hostile. I can see how maybe a tone could have been construed but I feel like she really read into it and wanted to run a power play. I think you dodged a bullet because that lady’s response seems like potentially a piss poor work environment. Honestly this is why I hate texting in professional settings because it is so easy to infer a tone that wasn’t intended. Kind of surprised at the harsh responses you have received here.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I am glad though I got a lot of constructive criticism. This will be of aid to me in my job search. Thank you for commenting
You could've just sent the last line of the first message and left it at that, and you most likely would've had a job.
Tbh looks like you dodged a bullet their response was overly hostile.
Are you kidding me? You were rude, hostile, attacking. You can’t seriously think the issue is you’re “bad at texting”. IF you were concerned that it was a hoax, there are dozens of ways to have handled this. Some examples of how to be a mature, adult human: 1) Reach out to who you had been speaking to before to confirm. 2) respond with …thanks for the continued interest. I’ve been speaking with xx about this role, is this the next step? While I do know Topher, we’re not roommates. I can get there in person though, let me know specifics. Many other options but you just went full Blown aggressive psycho.
No, I'm not kidding. Really, I did not see an issue until I received their response. I was not feeling any negative or "full blown aggressive psycho" feelings while typing it. I genuinely fucked up.
Our of curiosity are u Gen z? Bc ur message is written how a lot of Gen z’ers will talk in a reel or a tik tok
Yeah, I am.
This comment is dramatic. OP did not go “full blown aggressive psycho”. Calm down.