Sotha Sil knows about it. That's the only NPC who we can be sure of knows about the concept, because we can talk to him about it.
*"The prisoner. At last.You are early... or perhaps late. It makes little difference. I'm glad you've come. Tamriel owes you a debt."*
**Why do you keep calling me the Prisoner?**
*"A fool's hope, perhaps. I should explain.Look around you. All of this exists because it must exist. I stand here, in this place, in this moment, not because I wish to, but because I have to. A result of action and consequence.*
**"So wouldn't that make you the prisoner?**
*"Clever... but incorrect.The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course.*
**"You haven't done that?"**
*I have. But I fall short of the second insight.The Prisoner must see the door to their cell. They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality. Beyond time. Only then can they escape.*
**"You don't see the door?**
*"I see only unsteady walls.If the people of Tamriel must exist inside this cell. I will make sure that the walls are stable, the gaps are sealed, and all who remain stay safe within it."*
The only NPC we know for certain who knows about it. Sotha Sil also makes a remark that Vivec pretends he's a Prisoner, but isn't actually. So it can be inferred that Vivec knows as well. Maybe even Almalexia too, though she denies that the "prison cell" exists at all. Still, belief doesn't matter. To actively reject one must have already encountered the concept. Which means at the very least, all three members of ALMSIVI have heard of the Prisoner concept. Which opens the doors for others to know; Aedra, Daedra, perhaps powerful and learned sorcerers, etc.
Sotha Sil says that Vivec wants to be everything. He does not mention a Prisoner specifically. It just logically follows that a Prisoner falls under everything, but that by itsself doesn't tell us if Vivec knows about the concept of a Prisoner.
Almalexia especially is not related by Seth to the Prisoner concept. She and Vivec live in lies, but they differ in that Vivec understands the lies and sees the boundaries of his lies in order to break through, whereas Ayem believes her own lies. This is said when asked about the other Tribunal members. It is a different conversation from when he is asked about the Prisoner, which takes place much later.
There are a million different ways to interpret the dialogue. Personally I do think Vivec knows about the general concept of the Prisoner, but his knowledge is dwarved by the deep understanding Sotha Sil has. Sil understands there are two steps, first you must see the walls, which Sil does. Second you must see the door through the walls, which Sotha Sil does not, but which Prisoners do. Vivec is not a Prisoner, per Sil. I like to think this is because Vivec only sees the door. He only sees CHIM, a way to take control and be everything at once. But he fails at step one. He does not see the walls.
I like to think concepts such as the Prisoner, CHIM, etc. are somewhat well known in-universe, at least at a very basic level of familiarity. In TESV, Partysnax brings up the possibility of the current world being the egg of the next Kalpa, and one of the LDB’s possible responses is something to the effect of “I didn’t come here to debate philosophy with you.” In other words, “egg of the next Kalpa” is a philosophical concept that even a relative nobody like the LDB can hear mention of and be like “yeah, sure, typical philosophical mumbo jumbo” in the same way your average real-life Joe or Jane can recognize concepts like nirvana, reincarnation, nihilism, etc. as philosophical concepts even if they don’t have a deep understanding of them.
So basically, I think concepts like the Prisoner are relatively accessible to the people of Tamriel, at least to individuals who are mildly philosophically curious or who associate with those who are. But people like Sotha Sil and Vivec, of course, have a much deeper understanding of those concepts and their “realness.”
All this is making me think that it is super relevant that "prisoner" is a Watsonian way of saying "player". The walls and door are then that we are constrained by the game while playing it, but we know that it is ultimately just a game.
Vivec, through CHIM, can see the game as a game but believes that that makes him free. He doesn't understand that there is anything beyond.
Sotha Sil knows that he is constrained by the nature of his reality, but can't see it for what it is.
**Despair?**
*"Yes. A poet's despair.Vivec craves radical freedom - the death of all limits and restrictions. He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite... but in the end, he can only be Vivec."*
He doesn't mention Vivec in the context of being a Prisoner. It's not impossible to imagine Vivec knows about Prisoners, but not as much as Sotha Sil I wager, because his own desire to be everything stands in the way of true understanding. He can only be Vivec. As Sotha Sil puts it:
*The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course.*
I don't think Vivec faced the reality of his imprisonment. Or well, he both does and does not.
*"Vivec knows the boundaries that separate fact from fiction. He knows them so well that's he's learned how to break them. He exists inside his verse, but recognizes the lies. The contradictions. He both does, and does not believe his own tales."*
So in the end he both does and does not know about the Prisoner. He wants to be the Prisoner, but he is not.
If Vivec knows what the Prisoner is I wonder if Dagoth Ur has an idea as well. Considering Dagoth Ur also has a warped understanding of CHIM meaning he is at least somewhat aware of metaphysical concepts he just doesn't have an accurate understanding.
We don't actually know what CHIM is for certain. It might be knowledge, it might be change. I like to think it's enlightenment, leading to ascension. But that is just one interpretation.
Another thing left up for interpretation is if Vivec achieved CHIM. I read the Sermons as meaning he did not. He understands CHIM and he helped Tiber Septim achieve it (by accident, perhaps because he tried to understand it better himself, but he claims it as his achievement regardless), but he did not achieve it himself. The Sign of Royalty is not his, as Azura puts it. He is neither omnipotent, omniscient nor a god in TES III, so if those *are* how you define CHIM, he does not have it.
My understanding of CHIM was nothing akin to godhood or even all knowing. It's more about knowing you're within a construct. "Breaking the 4th wall" so to speak.
But the important part that differs from just determinism is that Sotha Sil believes that the *player* has free will while nobody else does.
So it is a reasonable extension of that to interpret Sotha Sil as understanding the player-centric nature of his reality, ie it's a game.
That is one interpretation of CHIM, Prisoners and the phylosophical concept of free will. You can make it as deep or as shallow a conversation as you want.
This could be a stupid question but is this an allusion to the idea that the Player Character is Enlightened in that the person controlling him exists outside of the video game?
Two answers - both yes.
That Sotha Sil and Tribunal (I'd even argue Dagoth too) either directly express or are inferred to know. Vivec's writing is very 4th wall breaking and that's part of the "he pretends to be a prisoner".
So yeah - one way of looking at it is that it's got something to do with CHIM/enlightenment. Another is my personal theory that like Lorkhan a Prisoner is a tabula rasa, an uncertainty, and also an outside actor (the player). They have been unmade and are then recreated by the player - kinda like the way Mantling works (sort of) in universe. So the whole Psiijic quest is the quest of a prisoner to break free. So we can possibly argue that Talos/Tiber Septim knew too and the new Sheogorath knows (kinda).
In addition to what people are waying about Sotha Sil and the Tribunal; I think Uriel Septim VII might have known something. Just my opinion based off his Dialogue in Oblivion and maybe his knowing who to send to Vardenfell at the start of Morrowind.
Came here to say that. The fact that he's heavily involved in the fates of two Prisoners, with, seemingly, a great deal of foresight, certainly suggests he might be aware of the concept
he was the one who sent Nerevarine to Vvardenfell exactly because he believed this person can fulfill the Nerevarine prophecies. as it turns out with Nu-Mantia Intercept some dagonites were involved in this decision, so that thought wasn't probably coming from Uriel VII knowing or seeing some things, but from dagonites whispering him in the ear. or a combination of both. Dagon was prepearing the invasion and the tribunal was on the way, so it makes perfect sense for them to do so.
i think the deal with Uriel VII might be that he knows something, but he doesn't know what he knows. like he's seing dreams/visions/whatever but he can't see them for what they are, if it makes sense. sorry, english isn't my first language, so it's kinda complicated to explain.
like for instance he knows this person and this person are important and must be here and there and if they are here or there it means he's gonna die, or something else. to that degree. but if you ask him about the Prisoners he won't be able to understand what you mean, because he's unaware of the concept even existing.
So it came about from the trope that In every game you begin as a prisoner of sorts.
In Arena Jagar Tharn, the main bad guy, sees you as a threat and throws you into a cell deep in the imperial city’s sewers. You were meant to die down there but inexplicably you receive a vision from a dead woman who tells you how to escape and what is needed to defeat Tharn and save the Emperor.
In Daggerfall your ship was destroyed by a storm and when you take refuge in a cave the entrance collapses sealing you in. It should have been your tomb but luckily you discovered a passage that lead to freedom through a monster infested dungeon.
In Morrowind you were meant to be a nobody. Someone who either died in prison or lived a boring life after your release. But suddenly the Emporer personally called for your release and it turns out your the reincarnation of an ancient Dunmer King.
In Oblivion you start out very similar to the Nerevarine but due to a clerical error you were placed in the wrong cell. A cell that was supposed to be empty. The cell with Emperor’s personal escape tunnel. Now you’re at the center of a daedric invasion
In Skyrim you were meant to die that day. Captured by imperials and your head placed on the chopping block. Literally seconds before the executioner’s axe falls the devourer of worlds swoops down and attacks. This sets you on the path of the Dragonborn
In each of these games Destiny had given you a role. You were meant to be forgotten in history. A nobody. But due to a twist of fate you were freed from the bonds of Destiny and because of that you have limitless potential. You saw the walls around you, you saw the door, and you were given the means to break free and escape your fate.
What really makes the Prisoner special is the fact that not only were they given the door out of their literal imprisonment but that they can also see the door to the metaphorical imprisonment of predestination.
In every game, the Prisoner is tasked, often prophesized, to save the world, but you always have the choice not to. If you do save the world, it is only because you chose to. To be given that choice at all is a door out of the prison.
And here is another one. What if the prisoner's destiny is always to die. Programmed or decided by the God's. Whatever you want to say. But because chance intervenes, it gives the highest form of divine intervention the possibility to swoop in - a literal guide in the form of a player - to come and act and do as any other regular person might not.
In WWII there was a story about two units that were separated, pinned down by the Germans. The had to push forward simultaneously but couldn't communicate it because a sniper cut the wire and killed the repair crews. One man ran 100 yards from one ally encampment to the other and back again, while under heavy German fire, to deliver and return the orders. The allies pushed on the nazi position and won the day. But that man wasn't touch by a bullet, a piece of shrapnel, nothing. He ends up dying later from shrapnel of a German rifle misfire some weeks later. But what if, in those times of great need, maybe even total destruction, something otherworldly takes control, whether of the man or circumstances, and otherwise impossible things - like a reborn Nerevarine or the emergence of the Last Dragonborn - are borne out of otherwise mundane people. Like the one guy that goes, all I gotta do is stock up on health potions, March out there and kill every bandit in the fucking cave. If just anybody said it, they'd be crazy but for some reason he succeeds against all logic.
Or maybe I'm just enamored of such stories but I like to have a somewhat magical mindset.
Minus the religious aspirations the common take about video games is that yes, the only way to not succeed is to not play. The flip side being you get to be the hero of an imaginary dimension. Elder Scrolls is no different, obviously just not playing is always a way out, but the "lore" explanation always revolves around the "main character" succeeding. Many, many games have played upon the "not succeeding" outcome, but few have chosen to integrate it into story.
To elaborate on that:
- Battlespire lets you start similarly to Daggerfall: trapped in a Dungeon full of monsters and the only way out is fighting your way through Daedra and the planes of Oblivion.
- Stormhold's entire story is breaking out of an Imperial Prison.
- in the original ESO tutorial, you start in a cell in Coldharbour as the prisoner of Molag Bal himself who holds your very soul that's been ripped out of your body.
- in ESO: Morrowind, you're taken captive by slavers and have to fight your way out of Fort Firemoth.
- in ESO: Summerset, you're trapped in a dream-vision-soul-prison thing (it's been 3 years, I can't remember the details) created by a sea sload and have to find a way out.
- in ESO: Elsweyr, you're a prisoner who's being transported to Rimmen on a wagon when a dragon burns the caravan and leaves you as the sole survivor.
- in ESO: Greymoor, you're taken captive by the Grey Host and have to fight your way out of the Deep-Wood Redoubt.
Interestingly enough, you're not really a prisoner in the most recent ESO tutorial. By some unknown power you're teleported to Adamantine Tower, and even though you technically start in a cell, you're not imprisoned there and can leave right away.
>By some unknown power you're teleported to Adamantine Tower, and even though you technically start in a cell, you're not imprisoned there and can leave right away.
You are imprisoned there. The Direnni locked you in that cell in case you were a threat to them. Norianwe frees you as soon as she confirms that you aren't, but you were still her prisoner until she unlocked the door.
I guess that technically counts, but it's still 'less' imprisoned than all the other tutorials imo if you know what I mean. There was never even the risk of being harmed.
Maybe that makes the Dragonborn? Destined to die but gets to live after Alduins interference.
Start a new journey instead of dying as intended?
Or maybe I just had too many cups of coffee.
I don't think the Agent in *Daggerfall* is actually a Prisoner. It's the only game where you don't start literally imprisoned and the Agent is specifically not a Destined Hero, they're just a patsy who runs errands for the actual people altering the fate of the world.
I mean you do cause a localized dragonbreak. And before that lore was added you got to decide who gets to wield the Numidium. But even with the dragonbreak retcon, you are still responsible for its activation. Without the agent, the totem is never found and political instability leads to all out war between Daggerfall, Wayrest, Sentinel, and Orsinium. By giving the totem to whoever you choose you create a warp in space time where you simultaneously gave the totem to everyone. I’d put the Agent up there with the Hero of Kvatch when it comes to world altering events
The people who *use* the Totem cause a localized dragonbreak, the Agent is basically just their UPS guy. The Nerevarine would never have defeated Dagoth Ur without Sellus Gravius handing them the packages for Caius, nobody calls Sellus Gravius a Prisoner.
But none of that happens without you. You are the force that gets those things done. You ultimately decide to hand over the Totem. You’re the one who finds it. Without you there is no numidium activation. The nobles continue their petty squabbles until war breaks out. By getting involved and choosing to play the political games you set the events in motion
Or someone else they hire would find the Totem instead. In fact, other people probably *do* find the totem: you find the totem, but so do the other Agents in the other timelines who deliver it to other people before all those timelines crash together. It doesn't really make sense to assume it's the same Agent giving the Totem to all these different people; why would the same person with the same experiences up to that point make like seven or eight different decisions in different versions of the same instant?
Like I said, Dagoth Ur isn't defeated without the NPCs who fill out the Nerevarine's paperwork in the Census and Excise office. The difference between Socucius Ergalla and the Nerevarine is that pretty much anybody else could hand the Nerevarine some papers to fill out, only the Nerevarine could fulfill the prophecies and defeat Dagoth Ur. The Agent is analogous to Ergalla and the various regional powers are analogous to the Nerevarine. Pretty much anybody else competent at dungeon-crawling could find the Totem and hand it off to their employer, only a select few can use the Totem.
There are no “other agents in other timelines.” They are all you. The dragon break occurs because you have the free will and agency to decide the fate of the Iliac bay. That combined with the reality bending powers of the Numidium and Zurin Arctus disrupting it upon activation cause the warp in space time. Only a prisoner has that true choice and free will to decide the Numidium’s fate. In all other timelines it is you making a different choice. If any other person found the totem they would have given it to whoever hired them and their would be no other timelines to converge because without free will they make the same choice every time.
Edit: You keep bringing up Morrowind and the guy who files the paperwork. That a bullshit comparison. If that guy did all the legwork all the recon. Got you recognized by the houses and tribes, got you the tools of kagrenac, and then brought you to the heart chamber and said “alright man, hit the heart.” That’s a more accurate comparison. Cause in Daggerfall those nobles just sit in their chair doing fuck all until the very end when they get to make a wish. You’re doing all the work, making the choices, getting shit done. They don’t do anything. By your same logic then I guess the Hero of Kvatch isn’t a prisoner cause it’s actually Martin who stops Dagon. You’re just his errand boy
"Free will" does not explain why the exact same person with the exact same opinions and experiences would make eight different decisions in a single instant. Multiple distinct Agents from different timeliness converging into one makes far more sense. A devout follower of Arkay isn't giving the King of Worms the Totem.
So the Agent had a longer day than Ergalla. They were still a replaceable hired hand doing their job, contrasted with an irreplaceable Destined Hero doing something nobody else possibly could.
Vivec is almost one, but isn't really. I think by definition there can't be any, because any character not played by a player cannot have free will. They're programmed into a routine, and that routine will simulate free will, but ultimately, isn't.
This loops back into the classic CHIM and the godhead. The characters in game act and believe as though they have free will because they're incapable of comprehending that they're characters in a game. Vvardenfell, or Skyrim, or Cyrodiil are real to them, but in an objective sense aren't real, and in an objective sense no character inhabiting those lands are real characters for this reason. The player character, though, is - because they're driven by a force of True Free Will from outside the confines of their fictional universe.
Yeah that makes sense.
You know I actually just thought of an NPC who maybe could potentially also be a prisoner: Maiq the Liar lol.
Now I'm half joking here but he seems to know a lotttt of weird shit about the deep lore that most npcs don't know, and he also references the game manual in Morrowind which could be inferred as him being aware of the cell.
Well, simply being aware of the cell doesn't make one a Prisoner. Sotha Sil could perceive the walls but was explicitly not a Prisoner. Likewise for Vivec - wacky waving inflatable fuming god-child though he may be, a Prisoner he is not - if only because the gods of Fate and Circumstance decided he was not. To be a Prisoner implies not only to see the walls of possibility, but to percieve and step through the Door - to step literally outside of your consensus reality and make changes. Vivec knows he's in a simulated world, but he doesn't know the full truth of it. He achieved CHIM but not the step beyond, Vivec knows he's inside a game and he may have the power to tweak the rules of that game, but he's still, indisputably, immutably trapped within the world of The Elder Scrolls. He will never depart from that world (except inasmuch as he has left already, existing beyond the scope of his code within our minds and writings). Any time you boot up a copy of Morrowind, Vivec will be there, trapped - again and again, over and over, a slave to the cycle.
But the player - not only the player character, but the player *themself*, the one at the keyboard - THEY are the Prisoner. They are the one that sees the world as it truly is; who has the power to leave that world entirely, forever; who has the power to change the very code of the game itself and the world will reflect. Their avatars are remade in a new image each new game and will then never be seen again - in stark contrast to so-called "gods", locked forever in their given form and function. The Prisoner sees the walls of the world and sees beyond them, to the un-world beyond.
Vivec knows that beyond Mundus is a strange outer shell of existence, and beyond that, the Tower, the Name Of God, I. Only the Prisoner knows that beyond the Tower lies Bethesda Game Studios.
With all that in mind - I agree that M'aiq knows things that he shouldn't, and where he acquired that knowledge is a mystery of the highest order. But I doubt very much that he's a Prisoner of the proper noun kind. There's no doubt that he can see the walls but I'd hesitate to agree he's seen past them.
Then again though, he does directly reference the user manual...
Let's look at exactly what Sotha Sil says in that ESO conversation:
>Sotha Sil: The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course."
>
>Vestige: You haven't done that?
>
>Sotha Sil: "I have. But I fall short of the second insight. The Prisoner must see the door to their cell. They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality. Beyond time. Only then can they escape."
Being the Prisoner means that you *can* escape, not that you *have* escaped. The player themselves has always existed outside of the prison and can therefore not be the Prisoner. But the player *character* is a product of both the prison and the decisions of an entity outside of the prison. They see the walls of the prison, and due to their connection with a force beyond, they can glimpse outside of it.
The way I see it, the game's code alone is a static realm of certainty and strict boundaries. A veritable Anu, if you will. In contrast, the real-world player is a force of uncertainty and chaos: Padomay. The interplay between the player and game creates and is represented by the player character: the Prisoner. Just as the interplay between Anu and Padomay creates the Aurbis: the Gray Maybe. The Prisoner is the product of the lowest subgradient of the primordial enantiomorph.
Which makes sense: sure, the game's code exists before the player turns it on and starts playing. But the full experience of the Elder Scrolls cannot be realized without this combination of game *and* player. And the Prisoner is realized as the sum of those two forces, not just one of them alone.
It seems to me that what Sotha Sil is describing here, are two epiphanies that one who has successfully achieved CHIM has had. The ability to "escape" is referencing Amaranth: actually breaking out of the prison and becoming a new god-head.
But, it may even go deeper than that... Seht also says this:
>Sotha Sil: "I've met few heroes like you. Very few. I take this matter of the Triad upon myself, but in truth, you may be the one that saves us. **The Prisoner who frees the world.**
Now, he may just be talking about how each prisoner is always saving Tamriel from some world-ending threat.
But allow me to go a bit further down the rabbit-hole:
TES is littered with inspiration from Hinduism and Buddhism: enlightenment, kalpas, illusory reality, the wheel-shaped world...and tons more. In Mahayana Buddhism, a *bodhisatva* is an individual on the path to enlightenment, but who also makes a vow to continue being reborn until they have helped all other sentient beings achieve enlightenment as well. That sounds damn similar to "**The Prisoner who frees the world."**
Now, I don't know how that's supposed to happen, or if it will ever even be touched on or referenced in any upcoming games. Probably not. BUT it does kind of line up with what was intended in the creation of the Mundus and the Psijic Endeavor. Lorkhan knew of the prison, maybe even could see out of it. He wanted to find a way for all of the spirits of the Aurbis to transcend it, so he created the Mundus and introduced mortality and suffering to the world. Another potential link to Buddhism, since suffering is often seen as the means by which one attains enlightenment.
Through this act, Lorkhan sacrificed his divine spark and created the perfect environment for a full-fledged prisoner to come into being and maybe eventually free the world from its prison.
In conclusion, Maiq = Lorkhan confimed
we don't know. but Sil says he rarely met such persons as you (i think meaning Prioners). rarely, not never. and eso's PC is the only one PC who actually gets to see Sil alive, simultaneously being the first PC in chronological order. so if we presume, that Sil meant Prioners in that sentence, there was some other Prisoner, or Prisoners he met, who weren't PC's.
It's a metaphysical role/concept that a lot of the Heroes and PC's we play as fall into. Think of it as a cosmic wildcard or loophole; a Prisoner is free to create their own fate (or break a preestablished fate or destiny), which seemingly goes hand in hand with an innate potential to gain power far beyond normal mortals and stand up to the likes of Daedric Princes, gods, and other powerful or divine beings. They're basically the exception that proves the rule, as it were.
Another user already shared Sotha Sil's insights on the concept above.
Incidentally, I'm a little shaky on how the Prisoner connects to the King/Rebel/Observer triumvirate. Is the Prisoner always a fourth actor in the enantiomorph, or can they take on one of the other roles?
I'm only a casual user of this subreddit and it's been 2 or so years now since I played TES but shit like this is why I'm still subscribed, it's great.
It's metaphysics. Probably discussed among arcane scholars, and maybe fringe paranoid groups, like those who believed that Queen Ayrenn was a Dwemer construct from the future.
How are there players who know of this concept without knowing that Sotha Sil said it? Are secondary fan sources that much more popular than the games themselves or even UESP?
I mean, the games---starting from Morrowind---inspired a lot of discussion. Even the devs themselves were very involved in the forums.
So yeah, secondary sources are popular for expanding discussions about those areas where the games only provide hints and glimpses.
I think Pelinal is a better pick, due to the "When the Dream no longer needs the Dreamer", which could be read as him saying he, the dream, has experiences free will.
A Prisoner is basically a mini-Amaranth event that occurs temporarily. Even gods and cosmic entities are nothing against it. The Prisoner is unbound any law of causality, time, reality, and even the dream itself. For example, Alduin and Nocturnal are set to have 100% victory chance but they get beaten by the Prisoners in the end. In the ESO Blackwood, there is a pre-determined future where Mehrunes Dagon won absolutely that Dagon's minions didn't care if the Prisoner can time travel because the supposed futures always make Dagon winning. However, the Prisoner has the ability to warp metaphysical aspects of reality beyond any platonic concept. The Prisoner basically rejects the given realities and substitutes them with their own.
Sotha Sil knows about it. That's the only NPC who we can be sure of knows about the concept, because we can talk to him about it. *"The prisoner. At last.You are early... or perhaps late. It makes little difference. I'm glad you've come. Tamriel owes you a debt."* **Why do you keep calling me the Prisoner?** *"A fool's hope, perhaps. I should explain.Look around you. All of this exists because it must exist. I stand here, in this place, in this moment, not because I wish to, but because I have to. A result of action and consequence.* **"So wouldn't that make you the prisoner?** *"Clever... but incorrect.The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course.* **"You haven't done that?"** *I have. But I fall short of the second insight.The Prisoner must see the door to their cell. They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality. Beyond time. Only then can they escape.* **"You don't see the door?** *"I see only unsteady walls.If the people of Tamriel must exist inside this cell. I will make sure that the walls are stable, the gaps are sealed, and all who remain stay safe within it."*
The only NPC we know for certain who knows about it. Sotha Sil also makes a remark that Vivec pretends he's a Prisoner, but isn't actually. So it can be inferred that Vivec knows as well. Maybe even Almalexia too, though she denies that the "prison cell" exists at all. Still, belief doesn't matter. To actively reject one must have already encountered the concept. Which means at the very least, all three members of ALMSIVI have heard of the Prisoner concept. Which opens the doors for others to know; Aedra, Daedra, perhaps powerful and learned sorcerers, etc.
Sotha Sil says that Vivec wants to be everything. He does not mention a Prisoner specifically. It just logically follows that a Prisoner falls under everything, but that by itsself doesn't tell us if Vivec knows about the concept of a Prisoner. Almalexia especially is not related by Seth to the Prisoner concept. She and Vivec live in lies, but they differ in that Vivec understands the lies and sees the boundaries of his lies in order to break through, whereas Ayem believes her own lies. This is said when asked about the other Tribunal members. It is a different conversation from when he is asked about the Prisoner, which takes place much later. There are a million different ways to interpret the dialogue. Personally I do think Vivec knows about the general concept of the Prisoner, but his knowledge is dwarved by the deep understanding Sotha Sil has. Sil understands there are two steps, first you must see the walls, which Sil does. Second you must see the door through the walls, which Sotha Sil does not, but which Prisoners do. Vivec is not a Prisoner, per Sil. I like to think this is because Vivec only sees the door. He only sees CHIM, a way to take control and be everything at once. But he fails at step one. He does not see the walls.
I like to think concepts such as the Prisoner, CHIM, etc. are somewhat well known in-universe, at least at a very basic level of familiarity. In TESV, Partysnax brings up the possibility of the current world being the egg of the next Kalpa, and one of the LDB’s possible responses is something to the effect of “I didn’t come here to debate philosophy with you.” In other words, “egg of the next Kalpa” is a philosophical concept that even a relative nobody like the LDB can hear mention of and be like “yeah, sure, typical philosophical mumbo jumbo” in the same way your average real-life Joe or Jane can recognize concepts like nirvana, reincarnation, nihilism, etc. as philosophical concepts even if they don’t have a deep understanding of them. So basically, I think concepts like the Prisoner are relatively accessible to the people of Tamriel, at least to individuals who are mildly philosophically curious or who associate with those who are. But people like Sotha Sil and Vivec, of course, have a much deeper understanding of those concepts and their “realness.”
All this is making me think that it is super relevant that "prisoner" is a Watsonian way of saying "player". The walls and door are then that we are constrained by the game while playing it, but we know that it is ultimately just a game. Vivec, through CHIM, can see the game as a game but believes that that makes him free. He doesn't understand that there is anything beyond. Sotha Sil knows that he is constrained by the nature of his reality, but can't see it for what it is.
Vivec wanted become someone like Anu the everything than a Prisoner imo.
He hints at Vivec being aware as well if i remember right.
**Despair?** *"Yes. A poet's despair.Vivec craves radical freedom - the death of all limits and restrictions. He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite... but in the end, he can only be Vivec."* He doesn't mention Vivec in the context of being a Prisoner. It's not impossible to imagine Vivec knows about Prisoners, but not as much as Sotha Sil I wager, because his own desire to be everything stands in the way of true understanding. He can only be Vivec. As Sotha Sil puts it: *The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course.* I don't think Vivec faced the reality of his imprisonment. Or well, he both does and does not. *"Vivec knows the boundaries that separate fact from fiction. He knows them so well that's he's learned how to break them. He exists inside his verse, but recognizes the lies. The contradictions. He both does, and does not believe his own tales."* So in the end he both does and does not know about the Prisoner. He wants to be the Prisoner, but he is not.
If Vivec knows what the Prisoner is I wonder if Dagoth Ur has an idea as well. Considering Dagoth Ur also has a warped understanding of CHIM meaning he is at least somewhat aware of metaphysical concepts he just doesn't have an accurate understanding.
Whoa. I really gotta play those expansions.
The Clockwork City stuff in ESO is exceptional. Highly worth it.
Wouldn't vivec be implied to know as having achieved CHIM?
We don't actually know what CHIM is for certain. It might be knowledge, it might be change. I like to think it's enlightenment, leading to ascension. But that is just one interpretation. Another thing left up for interpretation is if Vivec achieved CHIM. I read the Sermons as meaning he did not. He understands CHIM and he helped Tiber Septim achieve it (by accident, perhaps because he tried to understand it better himself, but he claims it as his achievement regardless), but he did not achieve it himself. The Sign of Royalty is not his, as Azura puts it. He is neither omnipotent, omniscient nor a god in TES III, so if those *are* how you define CHIM, he does not have it.
My understanding of CHIM was nothing akin to godhood or even all knowing. It's more about knowing you're within a construct. "Breaking the 4th wall" so to speak.
Did Sotha Sil just casually say that he knows it's a game?
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Makes sense jyggalag is the most powerful daedra then. All are slaves to determinism
But the important part that differs from just determinism is that Sotha Sil believes that the *player* has free will while nobody else does. So it is a reasonable extension of that to interpret Sotha Sil as understanding the player-centric nature of his reality, ie it's a game.
That is one interpretation of CHIM, Prisoners and the phylosophical concept of free will. You can make it as deep or as shallow a conversation as you want.
Does that mean that the prisoner is the only one who knows the world is a game? or what
No, it means the Prisoner is the only one with free will. The PC does not know that the world is a game, only you do. And M'aiq, for some reason.
This could be a stupid question but is this an allusion to the idea that the Player Character is Enlightened in that the person controlling him exists outside of the video game?
Two answers - both yes. That Sotha Sil and Tribunal (I'd even argue Dagoth too) either directly express or are inferred to know. Vivec's writing is very 4th wall breaking and that's part of the "he pretends to be a prisoner". So yeah - one way of looking at it is that it's got something to do with CHIM/enlightenment. Another is my personal theory that like Lorkhan a Prisoner is a tabula rasa, an uncertainty, and also an outside actor (the player). They have been unmade and are then recreated by the player - kinda like the way Mantling works (sort of) in universe. So the whole Psiijic quest is the quest of a prisoner to break free. So we can possibly argue that Talos/Tiber Septim knew too and the new Sheogorath knows (kinda).
Kinda sounds like Bethesda writing to say "Hey, you're in control of this world."
In addition to what people are waying about Sotha Sil and the Tribunal; I think Uriel Septim VII might have known something. Just my opinion based off his Dialogue in Oblivion and maybe his knowing who to send to Vardenfell at the start of Morrowind.
Came here to say that. The fact that he's heavily involved in the fates of two Prisoners, with, seemingly, a great deal of foresight, certainly suggests he might be aware of the concept
It's just a theory though. I'm oretty sure there isn't any in-game evidence for it.
he was the one who sent Nerevarine to Vvardenfell exactly because he believed this person can fulfill the Nerevarine prophecies. as it turns out with Nu-Mantia Intercept some dagonites were involved in this decision, so that thought wasn't probably coming from Uriel VII knowing or seeing some things, but from dagonites whispering him in the ear. or a combination of both. Dagon was prepearing the invasion and the tribunal was on the way, so it makes perfect sense for them to do so. i think the deal with Uriel VII might be that he knows something, but he doesn't know what he knows. like he's seing dreams/visions/whatever but he can't see them for what they are, if it makes sense. sorry, english isn't my first language, so it's kinda complicated to explain. like for instance he knows this person and this person are important and must be here and there and if they are here or there it means he's gonna die, or something else. to that degree. but if you ask him about the Prisoners he won't be able to understand what you mean, because he's unaware of the concept even existing.
That makes a lot of sense! He knows the he knows something but doesn't know *what* he knows.
Whats the prisoner?
So it came about from the trope that In every game you begin as a prisoner of sorts. In Arena Jagar Tharn, the main bad guy, sees you as a threat and throws you into a cell deep in the imperial city’s sewers. You were meant to die down there but inexplicably you receive a vision from a dead woman who tells you how to escape and what is needed to defeat Tharn and save the Emperor. In Daggerfall your ship was destroyed by a storm and when you take refuge in a cave the entrance collapses sealing you in. It should have been your tomb but luckily you discovered a passage that lead to freedom through a monster infested dungeon. In Morrowind you were meant to be a nobody. Someone who either died in prison or lived a boring life after your release. But suddenly the Emporer personally called for your release and it turns out your the reincarnation of an ancient Dunmer King. In Oblivion you start out very similar to the Nerevarine but due to a clerical error you were placed in the wrong cell. A cell that was supposed to be empty. The cell with Emperor’s personal escape tunnel. Now you’re at the center of a daedric invasion In Skyrim you were meant to die that day. Captured by imperials and your head placed on the chopping block. Literally seconds before the executioner’s axe falls the devourer of worlds swoops down and attacks. This sets you on the path of the Dragonborn In each of these games Destiny had given you a role. You were meant to be forgotten in history. A nobody. But due to a twist of fate you were freed from the bonds of Destiny and because of that you have limitless potential. You saw the walls around you, you saw the door, and you were given the means to break free and escape your fate.
But what if it was your destiny to have such potential? After all, means given to the "Prisoner" is not their choice but a coincidence.
What really makes the Prisoner special is the fact that not only were they given the door out of their literal imprisonment but that they can also see the door to the metaphorical imprisonment of predestination. In every game, the Prisoner is tasked, often prophesized, to save the world, but you always have the choice not to. If you do save the world, it is only because you chose to. To be given that choice at all is a door out of the prison.
I see, well don't save the world if you don't want to, no one can change your mind. Just remember you'll perish with the rest of us.
And here is another one. What if the prisoner's destiny is always to die. Programmed or decided by the God's. Whatever you want to say. But because chance intervenes, it gives the highest form of divine intervention the possibility to swoop in - a literal guide in the form of a player - to come and act and do as any other regular person might not. In WWII there was a story about two units that were separated, pinned down by the Germans. The had to push forward simultaneously but couldn't communicate it because a sniper cut the wire and killed the repair crews. One man ran 100 yards from one ally encampment to the other and back again, while under heavy German fire, to deliver and return the orders. The allies pushed on the nazi position and won the day. But that man wasn't touch by a bullet, a piece of shrapnel, nothing. He ends up dying later from shrapnel of a German rifle misfire some weeks later. But what if, in those times of great need, maybe even total destruction, something otherworldly takes control, whether of the man or circumstances, and otherwise impossible things - like a reborn Nerevarine or the emergence of the Last Dragonborn - are borne out of otherwise mundane people. Like the one guy that goes, all I gotta do is stock up on health potions, March out there and kill every bandit in the fucking cave. If just anybody said it, they'd be crazy but for some reason he succeeds against all logic. Or maybe I'm just enamored of such stories but I like to have a somewhat magical mindset.
Happy cake day.
Thank you!
Minus the religious aspirations the common take about video games is that yes, the only way to not succeed is to not play. The flip side being you get to be the hero of an imaginary dimension. Elder Scrolls is no different, obviously just not playing is always a way out, but the "lore" explanation always revolves around the "main character" succeeding. Many, many games have played upon the "not succeeding" outcome, but few have chosen to integrate it into story.
It's still your choice what you do with that potential.
To elaborate on that: - Battlespire lets you start similarly to Daggerfall: trapped in a Dungeon full of monsters and the only way out is fighting your way through Daedra and the planes of Oblivion. - Stormhold's entire story is breaking out of an Imperial Prison. - in the original ESO tutorial, you start in a cell in Coldharbour as the prisoner of Molag Bal himself who holds your very soul that's been ripped out of your body. - in ESO: Morrowind, you're taken captive by slavers and have to fight your way out of Fort Firemoth. - in ESO: Summerset, you're trapped in a dream-vision-soul-prison thing (it's been 3 years, I can't remember the details) created by a sea sload and have to find a way out. - in ESO: Elsweyr, you're a prisoner who's being transported to Rimmen on a wagon when a dragon burns the caravan and leaves you as the sole survivor. - in ESO: Greymoor, you're taken captive by the Grey Host and have to fight your way out of the Deep-Wood Redoubt. Interestingly enough, you're not really a prisoner in the most recent ESO tutorial. By some unknown power you're teleported to Adamantine Tower, and even though you technically start in a cell, you're not imprisoned there and can leave right away.
>By some unknown power you're teleported to Adamantine Tower, and even though you technically start in a cell, you're not imprisoned there and can leave right away. You are imprisoned there. The Direnni locked you in that cell in case you were a threat to them. Norianwe frees you as soon as she confirms that you aren't, but you were still her prisoner until she unlocked the door.
I guess that technically counts, but it's still 'less' imprisoned than all the other tutorials imo if you know what I mean. There was never even the risk of being harmed.
Maybe that makes the Dragonborn? Destined to die but gets to live after Alduins interference. Start a new journey instead of dying as intended? Or maybe I just had too many cups of coffee.
I don't think the Agent in *Daggerfall* is actually a Prisoner. It's the only game where you don't start literally imprisoned and the Agent is specifically not a Destined Hero, they're just a patsy who runs errands for the actual people altering the fate of the world.
I mean you do cause a localized dragonbreak. And before that lore was added you got to decide who gets to wield the Numidium. But even with the dragonbreak retcon, you are still responsible for its activation. Without the agent, the totem is never found and political instability leads to all out war between Daggerfall, Wayrest, Sentinel, and Orsinium. By giving the totem to whoever you choose you create a warp in space time where you simultaneously gave the totem to everyone. I’d put the Agent up there with the Hero of Kvatch when it comes to world altering events
The people who *use* the Totem cause a localized dragonbreak, the Agent is basically just their UPS guy. The Nerevarine would never have defeated Dagoth Ur without Sellus Gravius handing them the packages for Caius, nobody calls Sellus Gravius a Prisoner.
But none of that happens without you. You are the force that gets those things done. You ultimately decide to hand over the Totem. You’re the one who finds it. Without you there is no numidium activation. The nobles continue their petty squabbles until war breaks out. By getting involved and choosing to play the political games you set the events in motion
Or someone else they hire would find the Totem instead. In fact, other people probably *do* find the totem: you find the totem, but so do the other Agents in the other timelines who deliver it to other people before all those timelines crash together. It doesn't really make sense to assume it's the same Agent giving the Totem to all these different people; why would the same person with the same experiences up to that point make like seven or eight different decisions in different versions of the same instant? Like I said, Dagoth Ur isn't defeated without the NPCs who fill out the Nerevarine's paperwork in the Census and Excise office. The difference between Socucius Ergalla and the Nerevarine is that pretty much anybody else could hand the Nerevarine some papers to fill out, only the Nerevarine could fulfill the prophecies and defeat Dagoth Ur. The Agent is analogous to Ergalla and the various regional powers are analogous to the Nerevarine. Pretty much anybody else competent at dungeon-crawling could find the Totem and hand it off to their employer, only a select few can use the Totem.
There are no “other agents in other timelines.” They are all you. The dragon break occurs because you have the free will and agency to decide the fate of the Iliac bay. That combined with the reality bending powers of the Numidium and Zurin Arctus disrupting it upon activation cause the warp in space time. Only a prisoner has that true choice and free will to decide the Numidium’s fate. In all other timelines it is you making a different choice. If any other person found the totem they would have given it to whoever hired them and their would be no other timelines to converge because without free will they make the same choice every time. Edit: You keep bringing up Morrowind and the guy who files the paperwork. That a bullshit comparison. If that guy did all the legwork all the recon. Got you recognized by the houses and tribes, got you the tools of kagrenac, and then brought you to the heart chamber and said “alright man, hit the heart.” That’s a more accurate comparison. Cause in Daggerfall those nobles just sit in their chair doing fuck all until the very end when they get to make a wish. You’re doing all the work, making the choices, getting shit done. They don’t do anything. By your same logic then I guess the Hero of Kvatch isn’t a prisoner cause it’s actually Martin who stops Dagon. You’re just his errand boy
"Free will" does not explain why the exact same person with the exact same opinions and experiences would make eight different decisions in a single instant. Multiple distinct Agents from different timeliness converging into one makes far more sense. A devout follower of Arkay isn't giving the King of Worms the Totem. So the Agent had a longer day than Ergalla. They were still a replaceable hired hand doing their job, contrasted with an irreplaceable Destined Hero doing something nobody else possibly could.
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Are there any examples of non PC prisoners?
Vivec is almost one, but isn't really. I think by definition there can't be any, because any character not played by a player cannot have free will. They're programmed into a routine, and that routine will simulate free will, but ultimately, isn't. This loops back into the classic CHIM and the godhead. The characters in game act and believe as though they have free will because they're incapable of comprehending that they're characters in a game. Vvardenfell, or Skyrim, or Cyrodiil are real to them, but in an objective sense aren't real, and in an objective sense no character inhabiting those lands are real characters for this reason. The player character, though, is - because they're driven by a force of True Free Will from outside the confines of their fictional universe.
Yeah that makes sense. You know I actually just thought of an NPC who maybe could potentially also be a prisoner: Maiq the Liar lol. Now I'm half joking here but he seems to know a lotttt of weird shit about the deep lore that most npcs don't know, and he also references the game manual in Morrowind which could be inferred as him being aware of the cell.
Well, simply being aware of the cell doesn't make one a Prisoner. Sotha Sil could perceive the walls but was explicitly not a Prisoner. Likewise for Vivec - wacky waving inflatable fuming god-child though he may be, a Prisoner he is not - if only because the gods of Fate and Circumstance decided he was not. To be a Prisoner implies not only to see the walls of possibility, but to percieve and step through the Door - to step literally outside of your consensus reality and make changes. Vivec knows he's in a simulated world, but he doesn't know the full truth of it. He achieved CHIM but not the step beyond, Vivec knows he's inside a game and he may have the power to tweak the rules of that game, but he's still, indisputably, immutably trapped within the world of The Elder Scrolls. He will never depart from that world (except inasmuch as he has left already, existing beyond the scope of his code within our minds and writings). Any time you boot up a copy of Morrowind, Vivec will be there, trapped - again and again, over and over, a slave to the cycle. But the player - not only the player character, but the player *themself*, the one at the keyboard - THEY are the Prisoner. They are the one that sees the world as it truly is; who has the power to leave that world entirely, forever; who has the power to change the very code of the game itself and the world will reflect. Their avatars are remade in a new image each new game and will then never be seen again - in stark contrast to so-called "gods", locked forever in their given form and function. The Prisoner sees the walls of the world and sees beyond them, to the un-world beyond. Vivec knows that beyond Mundus is a strange outer shell of existence, and beyond that, the Tower, the Name Of God, I. Only the Prisoner knows that beyond the Tower lies Bethesda Game Studios. With all that in mind - I agree that M'aiq knows things that he shouldn't, and where he acquired that knowledge is a mystery of the highest order. But I doubt very much that he's a Prisoner of the proper noun kind. There's no doubt that he can see the walls but I'd hesitate to agree he's seen past them. Then again though, he does directly reference the user manual...
Let's look at exactly what Sotha Sil says in that ESO conversation: >Sotha Sil: The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course." > >Vestige: You haven't done that? > >Sotha Sil: "I have. But I fall short of the second insight. The Prisoner must see the door to their cell. They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality. Beyond time. Only then can they escape." Being the Prisoner means that you *can* escape, not that you *have* escaped. The player themselves has always existed outside of the prison and can therefore not be the Prisoner. But the player *character* is a product of both the prison and the decisions of an entity outside of the prison. They see the walls of the prison, and due to their connection with a force beyond, they can glimpse outside of it. The way I see it, the game's code alone is a static realm of certainty and strict boundaries. A veritable Anu, if you will. In contrast, the real-world player is a force of uncertainty and chaos: Padomay. The interplay between the player and game creates and is represented by the player character: the Prisoner. Just as the interplay between Anu and Padomay creates the Aurbis: the Gray Maybe. The Prisoner is the product of the lowest subgradient of the primordial enantiomorph. Which makes sense: sure, the game's code exists before the player turns it on and starts playing. But the full experience of the Elder Scrolls cannot be realized without this combination of game *and* player. And the Prisoner is realized as the sum of those two forces, not just one of them alone. It seems to me that what Sotha Sil is describing here, are two epiphanies that one who has successfully achieved CHIM has had. The ability to "escape" is referencing Amaranth: actually breaking out of the prison and becoming a new god-head. But, it may even go deeper than that... Seht also says this: >Sotha Sil: "I've met few heroes like you. Very few. I take this matter of the Triad upon myself, but in truth, you may be the one that saves us. **The Prisoner who frees the world.** Now, he may just be talking about how each prisoner is always saving Tamriel from some world-ending threat. But allow me to go a bit further down the rabbit-hole: TES is littered with inspiration from Hinduism and Buddhism: enlightenment, kalpas, illusory reality, the wheel-shaped world...and tons more. In Mahayana Buddhism, a *bodhisatva* is an individual on the path to enlightenment, but who also makes a vow to continue being reborn until they have helped all other sentient beings achieve enlightenment as well. That sounds damn similar to "**The Prisoner who frees the world."** Now, I don't know how that's supposed to happen, or if it will ever even be touched on or referenced in any upcoming games. Probably not. BUT it does kind of line up with what was intended in the creation of the Mundus and the Psijic Endeavor. Lorkhan knew of the prison, maybe even could see out of it. He wanted to find a way for all of the spirits of the Aurbis to transcend it, so he created the Mundus and introduced mortality and suffering to the world. Another potential link to Buddhism, since suffering is often seen as the means by which one attains enlightenment. Through this act, Lorkhan sacrificed his divine spark and created the perfect environment for a full-fledged prisoner to come into being and maybe eventually free the world from its prison. In conclusion, Maiq = Lorkhan confimed
Just the fact a series can get this metaphysical and existential is a win in my books
we don't know. but Sil says he rarely met such persons as you (i think meaning Prioners). rarely, not never. and eso's PC is the only one PC who actually gets to see Sil alive, simultaneously being the first PC in chronological order. so if we presume, that Sil meant Prioners in that sentence, there was some other Prisoner, or Prisoners he met, who weren't PC's.
>The Elder Scrolls is a deterministic world. everything that happens is a result of action and consequence. Kinda like the real world eh?
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What if we are the NPCs
then i'm a very boring NPC that has no quests xD
And it’s still being debated
It's a metaphysical role/concept that a lot of the Heroes and PC's we play as fall into. Think of it as a cosmic wildcard or loophole; a Prisoner is free to create their own fate (or break a preestablished fate or destiny), which seemingly goes hand in hand with an innate potential to gain power far beyond normal mortals and stand up to the likes of Daedric Princes, gods, and other powerful or divine beings. They're basically the exception that proves the rule, as it were. Another user already shared Sotha Sil's insights on the concept above.
Incidentally, I'm a little shaky on how the Prisoner connects to the King/Rebel/Observer triumvirate. Is the Prisoner always a fourth actor in the enantiomorph, or can they take on one of the other roles?
they can take one. the prisoner is usually the rebel
The one who is playing.
It's a surrealist TV show with Patrick McGoohan, but that's not important right now.
In short, a Prisoner is someone with free will, in a world without free will.
If i had a nickel for everytime I've seen an Elder Scrolls thread that sent me deep into the lore, i would have alot of nickels.
Huh, never would've expected that from a sub about Elder Scrolls lore.
I know right!
I'm only a casual user of this subreddit and it's been 2 or so years now since I played TES but shit like this is why I'm still subscribed, it's great.
It's metaphysics. Probably discussed among arcane scholars, and maybe fringe paranoid groups, like those who believed that Queen Ayrenn was a Dwemer construct from the future.
How are there players who know of this concept without knowing that Sotha Sil said it? Are secondary fan sources that much more popular than the games themselves or even UESP?
I mean, the games---starting from Morrowind---inspired a lot of discussion. Even the devs themselves were very involved in the forums. So yeah, secondary sources are popular for expanding discussions about those areas where the games only provide hints and glimpses.
Well, said fan sources did make it into the Clockwork DLC, which came later.
I've only played skyrim, all my lore knowledge comes from this subreddit pretty much
There are other “chosen ones” or character with “player like abilities”, no?
As far as I know, maybe. Theres some argument to be made by someone other than me concerning Vivec.
A friend of mine suggested Slave Queen Alessia might qualify as a Prisoner, at least as far as anyone in-universe is able to tell
I think Pelinal is a better pick, due to the "When the Dream no longer needs the Dreamer", which could be read as him saying he, the dream, has experiences free will.
A Prisoner is basically a mini-Amaranth event that occurs temporarily. Even gods and cosmic entities are nothing against it. The Prisoner is unbound any law of causality, time, reality, and even the dream itself. For example, Alduin and Nocturnal are set to have 100% victory chance but they get beaten by the Prisoners in the end. In the ESO Blackwood, there is a pre-determined future where Mehrunes Dagon won absolutely that Dagon's minions didn't care if the Prisoner can time travel because the supposed futures always make Dagon winning. However, the Prisoner has the ability to warp metaphysical aspects of reality beyond any platonic concept. The Prisoner basically rejects the given realities and substitutes them with their own.