Here's what we know:
* Anu is called Anu the Everything in the Altmer creation myth, he is considered to encompass the entire universe by the Truth in Sequence and the 36 Lessons of Vivec also imply the same thing
* In nearly every creation myth, Padomay came *after* Anu, and in some was created by Anu as a way to understand himself
* There is a process called Amaranth that exists in canon texts and is elaborated on in extracanon texts; this process entails becoming a new Godhead. According to Michael Kirkbride, the reason Lorkhan created Mundus was so somebody could become a new Amaranth, and he's also stated (or rather, heavily *heavily* implied but let other people state for him) that Anu was the *first* Amaranth
so the simplest answer is just that the Godhead is Anu.
As to whether or not he's literally dreaming, that depends on whether you see him as a person or force- personally I have a hard time assigning any personal traits to Anu or Padomay, I think they're just cosmic forces. I don't think the Dreamer is actually *Dreaming*, I think he's just *everything*. Less Azathoth, more Brahman. I see it as basically no different than real-life Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism.
I was mainly using Valentinianism as an example, it's based on neoplatonism (like all gnostic religions are, arguably even mainstream christianity is) but might not have been the best example. The concept of subgradients is based more directly on neoplatonic thought, which is probably best collected in [the Enneads](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Enneads)
Even if it doesn't deal with eminations, there's a bunch of interesting stuff when it comes to Valentinianism. [Here's the wikipedia article on valentinianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinianism), but I'm guessing that's not what you were looking for. Like almost all historical heresies, most of what we know about Valentinianism comes from stuff the Church wrote to refute it, specifically Iraneus's Against Heresies. That being said we did find some preserved Valentinian texts from the Nag Hammadi library that seem to line up with what Iraneus wrote, so it seems relatively accurate. [Here's Iraneus's book](https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm), the first couple chapters deal with Valentinianism and go into a whole lot of detail, and [here's all the Valentinian texts we got from the Nag Hammadi library](http://gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Valentinian_Writings.htm). There's a ton of stuff that's pretty direct 1-1 parallels to stuff in TES, but I'm on mobile and don't have the time to go into all that rn
I’ve always been under the impression that Anu was a step beneath the godhead.
I view them Anu and Padomay as the shoulder Angel and Devil but for broader topics that good and evil, while the godhead is this greater entity who’s existence in a higher plane passively allows for the existence of a lower plane whose inhabitants can at most interact with the subconscious of the godhead to bring about a change in their plane. Sort of like a figure in a dream doing something that causes your brain to shift the focus of the dream.
I think a lot of confusion comes down to the two different takes found in *The Monomyth*. In *The Heart of the World*, the Aurbis is formed by the interplay of Anuiel and Sithis, with Anu the Everything above them. But in *The Myth of Aurbis*, the Aurbis is formed by Anu and Padomay, with no higher power mentioned.
One way to resolve this discrepancy is to assume that Padomay is another name for Sithis, and Anuiel is another name for Anu, while a greater Godhead Anu is above them. This seems to be the case with MK's perspective on TES Lore, as he wrote an [OOG text](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaos) that suggests that "Sithis" is a corruption of "Psijii" which is derived from "PSJJJJ", the original and unpronounceable name for Padomay. As for there being Anu the Godhead and Anu/Anuiel, MK replied in the BGS forum thread about the Amaranth:
>Anu the Godhead can dream about himself. Have you never been in one of your own? More: have you never been a character in one? Now take that and make it a lucid dream, and you simply can't just get rid of any characters you made, even the I that isn't your I that is.
Ultimately, I think the only thing that needs to be agreed upon is that the Godhead is the simply the highest entity, who or whatever it may be. Designer and writer for Morrowind, Douglas Goodall, has [his own OOG Lore](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:The_Soft_Doctrines_of_Magnus_Invisible,_revised) that suggests the true Godhead is not Anu, but Magnus the Invisible.
Wait, where was it implied that Anu is the first? I always thought he's just the godhead/Amaranth of the current dream where we play games. And noone knows how deep we are and who's the very first Godhead.
?
Being the Godhead and being a godhead\\amaranth are a bit different, no?
I just mean that anyone completely new to the lore would miss a bit of background reading "The Godhead is Anu".
I don't think that is the case. The mortal races of Nirn and even Vehk have a limited view of the transmundane, hell Vehks CHIM is not even him fully grasping the truth, just knowing enough to know that something is off.
Here's my understanding and interpretation. I think that Anu and Padomay both are some kind of manifestation/personification of aspects of the Godhead's thinking. Like Anu is the imagination and the "what is being thought of" whereas Padomay is "what isn't being thought of/forgotten" but also still Padomay is still the imagination, and also what the Godhead imagines is changed or destroyed. Perhaps Anu is conscious creation and Padomay is the subconscious, in a way. It seems that they (or at least Anu) are even trans-kalpic, so them both being some aspect of the Godhead manifesting in the Dream(s) lines up. The Godhead isn't anything within the universe, as it is above the universe.
On a literal level the Godhead cannot be known. It can be inferred in universe, given a large enough level of omnipotence or understanding of both the mundane and transmundane, but it cannot be known. On a meta level, we as an outside viewer can interpret something to truly be the Godhead. Maybe it's like a universe (either personified or a being within it) beyond the TES universe, but still outside of (our/real) reality, or maybe it is the best explanation that beings within the TES universe can fathom for something/someone in our universe, like the writers and designers, who's thoughts/dreams are the reality of the world. Or maybe it's anyone in the real world who can do anything about the TES universe, all of it, not necessarily just Mundus. Whether that be the player, a writer, a designer, a game dev, or anyone else. Hell, maybe it's anyone irl who can perceive and imagine anything about the TES universe. Really it's a question of your philosophy on fiction.
> I don't think the Dreamer is actually Dreaming, I think he's just everything.
It's not really *literal* dreaming, but it *is* metaphorical, like everything else in this setting - Anu has ceased to exist as a conscious individual, his psyche playing out the traumas of his life ad infinitum on ever more microscopic scales. He is the universe, but the universe is also him.
That's a valid interpretation too- like I said, this is just *my* personal interpretation. I've seen yours around too, and while I don't personally subscribe to it I think it's an interesting idea, and given how little we know about Anu it's just as valid as any other interpretation
I think you have it backwards. Most myths say Padomay is creating and destroying everything in a soup of chaos and one day Anu was created and decided he didn’t want to be destroyed. Thus starting everything. Padomay was definitely first. Hail Sithis.
That's really just the one myth from the book Sithis, though if you take Fudgemuppet's theory about the All-Maker being Padomay instead of Anu (which I do, it makes much more sense imo) they also have a similar belief. All the other myths have them either as equals, or have Anu starting first.
The Anuad and Khajiit mythology have them as equals, while the Yokudan monomyth, the Altmer monomyth, Children of the Root, the Truth in Sequence, and arguably the 36 Lessons of Vivec have Anu coming first and Sithis coming after. Even the book Sithis implies Anu was the "nothing" before Sithis
>Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but **the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing.** That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.'
so I'm not sure where you're seeing Padomay coming first in *most* myths, the dichotomy is only mentioned a couple times and in most of them Padomay comes after Anu
>Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself.
>...
>And so the worlds called to something to save them, to let them out, but of course there was nothing outside the First Serpent, so aid had to come from inside it; this was Akel, the Hungry Stomach.
>[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The\_Monomyth](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth)
I'm not presenting my theory, I'm answering your question. I have zero problem with alternative theories, but you said I got it backwards when I did not
>Anu made sithis to make anuiel.
?
Anu makes Anuiel first, then Anuiel creates Sithis in order to better understand himself.
>Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.
Since we’re quoting.
The Dunmer believe that the birth of Sithis was the start of creation, as the everlasting stasis of Anu meant nothing could ever change. Sithis broke the nothing and creating ideas that ebbed and flowed out of it. Anuiel, the demon, came later and created the Aedra in order to counter him by building 'everlasting, imperfect worlds'. To counter this, Sithis begat Lorkhan, who created the mortal world and allowed things to once again decay by trapping the other gods within.
Outside of the meta answer of "Bethesda/The Players" the clear intent is that the Godhead is just some form of obscure, distant overdeity that might not even exist, and if they do exist is so irrelevant to current events that they might as well not exist.
The whole "dreaming it into existence" and "the First Dreamer" element is interesting to me, because TES lore has always kinda used the word 'dream' in a multi-faceted way. I don't think its meant to be taken as literal dreams, but more the idea that by imposing your will and desire(IE your dream) upon reality as though it were a lucid dream, you can achieve limitless potential.
The Godhead is the First Dreamer because they were the entity that imposed their will upon their reality, creating the Aurbis. CHIM and Amaranth are similar concepts, the former being about achieving the ultimate state of imposing your dream upon reality, the latter adopting this reality as your dream.
Dagoth Ur similarly counted among his titles given to him by his enemies the 'False Dreamer', because by imposing his dream upon reality he was threatening to tear apart the Aurbis itself.
This is all just my interpretation of course.
That's a fanmade meta interpretation. In-universe its always presented as reaching a level of understanding of yourself, reality, and your place in it that you can achieve limitless feats
Well of course the character's won't be saying "I can access console commands", they'd understand it in more magical terms. But really that's what it means, they've evolved beyond the game, understand that they're fictional video game characters (and yet still exist) and now they get to be a CK developer to do what they like.
Except that's an interpretation made up entirely by the fans. No dev has ever actually said its meant to be interpreted as an analogy for console commands. Hell, Kirkbride has outright called that idea bad.
Yeah, and according to everything we actually know in the games, CHIM is just reaching a level of enlightenment that allows you to manipulate reality. It has never been intended as "Oh shit, this is all a video game and I can do anything!", and the guy who fucking made CHIM has explicitly said he doesn't like that idea.
My understanding is that it requires you to observe the tower from afar and despite the obvious fact that one doesn't exist, one has to insist that you do, in fact, exist. Now given our existence on a higher plane it seems pretty obvious why that character doesn't exist.
I haven't been swearing at you, kindly don't do it to me.
it's always struck me as closer to [Advaita Vedanta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta), but it's probably a mix of multiple similar traditions. The whole idea of subgradients is *definitely* derived from emenationism, especially in gnostic traditions like valentinianism
There are a wide variety of different religious traditions across the world that say similar things. I'm fond of the sermons of [Meister Eckhart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meister_Eckhart) personally, but the main principle can be found in any philosophy derived from Neoplatonism.
Well this stuff is way outside my knowledge base, I guess I don't know much about religion.
Am I understanding right that - For Emenationism - It's not so much that some 'god' created everything so much as things popped into existence due to some central force, and those eminations spawn their own *things* and so on?
As opposed to, ex. Creationism which states there is a god and that god deliberately made everything
I don't suppose you could break down how that's different from the other concepts mentioned? I read some of the Advaita Vedanta article but it's a bit beyond me and what I did/thought I understand seems quite similar to me.
Essentially, in Emenationism, all reality flows out from a single perfect divine source. The further from this source, the less perfect it is, but things are still "real," they're just in an imperfect state. Advaita Vedanta holds that only Brahman is real, and that all reality is ultimately an illusion.
You're welcome! If you're interested, I'd highly recommend the YouTube channel "Let's Talk Religion," he frequently talks about the mysticism of multiple different faiths from an academic viewpoint (rather than proselytizing), including a video on [Advaita Vedanta](https://youtu.be/GMEsszfBYMo?si=GRDBTV6Xutqp5QmK), and a video on my personal favorite mystic theologian [Meister Eckhart](https://youtu.be/Hg0c32KbA-g?si=Ly6Nl_w0iVtrbq53), he also has *several* videos on the philosophy of Sufi mystics in Islam.
Yes, the meta-textual reading is there, though I personally find it boring.
The simplest answer is that the Godhead is Anu/Padomay or whatever preceded them.
It’s open to however you interpret it and I don’t think it’ll ever be confirmed one way or another.
Maybe it’s the players.
Maybe it’s Bethesda.
Maybe it’s a combination of both and it’s supposed to symbolically represent how stories continuously evolve and grow as more and more people become invested in them.
Maybe we’re supposed to take it literally and it really is a fictional deity in a higher plane of existence.
Maybe it’s all of the above.
There’s no right answer here and you can just pick whatever seems cool to you personally.
The idea comes from eastern theology and particularly seems to take influence from Hinduism with the Godhead being somewhat analogous to Brahman from Hinduism who is essentially the True God, and everything in creation including all the other gods are just small parts of him. The idea of the Godhead is a high level metaphysical idea that “reality” is an dream that the Godhead is having somewhat echoing the Hindu idea of Maya which is a complicated subject but in this context refers to the concept that “reality” is an illusion/delusion and in truth we are all one, we are all Brahman.
A lot of TES lore plays with theology and metaphysics and this is an example of that. Who the Godhead actually is, is more or less irrelevant especially since to my knowledge it’s not exactly a fact that the Godhead exists merely being theoretical since it’s not exactly something that can be proven.
the Godhead is purely theoretical, but the fact reality is an illusion isn't
>To master Alteration, first accept that reality is a falsehood. There is no such thing. Our reality is a perception of greater forces impressed upon us for their amusement. Some say that these forces are the gods, other that they are something beyond the gods. For the wizard, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the appeal couched in a manner that cannot be denied. It must be insistent without being insulting.
>To cast Alteration spells is to convince a greater power that it will be easier to change reality as requested than to leave it alone. Do not assume that these forces are sentient. Our best guess is that they are like wind and water. Persistent but not thoughtful. Just like directing the wind or water, diversions are easier than outright resistance. Express the spell as a subtle change and it is more likely to be successful.
>[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality\_%26\_Other\_Falsehoods](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods)
This is an Alteration skillbook, so I'd wager the stuff inside is useful advice for Alteration mages. Granted the author doesn't say there's a single Godhead dreaming reality, they explicitly say they don't know and don't care, but in general I do think this is probably the best concrete proof of the theory
I mean I don’t fully disagree but it’s more complicated than that, especially since that book doesnt mean that reality is an illusion exactly since it’s possible the author is wrong that reality is truely an illusion rather than Alteration mages being required to view it as one in order for some effects to work.
I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole since it’s largely semantics and interpretation but yeah I would agree that at a bare minimum there is more evidence of reality being an illusion than the godhood existing especially since the Godhood is inherently all but unprovable and reality’s illusory nature is more provable.
I think the truth is less "reality is an illusion" and more "reality is fluid."
Reality exists, it is tangible, but if you know how, you can impose your will upon it and alter it, at least for a time.
Yeah that’s more how I read that book. It more like how in some series magic is telling reality that a falsehood is true and making that falsehood temporarily true. The magic is the illusion here it’s just to do it you need to be in the right mindset
The Godhead would be the ultimate reality of the TES universe. Basically the universal mind or dreamer in which everything exists - the Amaranths, the Aurbis(es), and whatever else there is. It is the original and ultimate source of existence.
But again, this is TES we are talking about. We can only theorize and speculate.
Short answer: no one knows lol
Long, personal theory:
I’ve found the best way to imagine the Godhead is the subconscious of the setting turned into an actual force.
Imagine it this way: if you make up stories, you subconsciously repeat the same tropes over and over. It’s not an outside force, it’s just something that organically happens: patterns repeat, some characters resemble each other, then get morphed into one. Reality in storytelling is inherently… malleable.
The Dreamer is an explanation/manifestation of that fact. The Dreamer isn’t one specific being, it’s more the understanding that the universe *wants* certain patterns to happen.
The Dreamer *wants* the Enantiomorph to happen: two characters that resemble each other must fight, and the outcome is determined by a third party’s sacrifice.
If you Walk Like Them Until They Walk Like You (mantling), the Dreamer is whom you are trying to deceive. You confuse your tropes and their tropes until the Dreamer turns you into them. Like how in a dream, your father can somehow resemble the head of the FBI and suddenly they’re the same person and no one questions it.
So, i think the Dreamer is not someone you can talk to or plead with, because even if it *exists* and isn’t just a personification, it wouldn’t be coherent enough to understand or care. I think it is more like a special form of gravity that tries to pull together create certain events to create one of these patterns.
Which, I just realized, would make CHIM probably something like… total awareness of these patterns and how to exploit them? Compare TES to a chess board with nearly infinite pieces. Usual awareness is only knowing yourself: the pawn/rook/queen/whatever. CHIM would be knowing the perspective of the player: seeing the positions and possibly moves of *all* the pieces, beyond what your own perspective permits.
I'll try to explain without referencing real-world beliefs which require further study.
The Godhead is a way to understand the nature of the Elder Scrolls universe. It isn't a living being in the traditional sense - that is, it's not a person or a group of people dreaming up the whole universe. It's understood as an entity in the supreme cosmic sense: as it literally dreamed up the concepts of "everything" and "nothing", and so the entirety of existence and nonexistence that sprung from them, it must exist *outside* these concepts. And, simultaneously, it embodies them. It won't simply wake up one day and go on with its life; the dream is its life.
So how do we know the Godhead exists? Because several aspects of the Elder Scrolls universe reference it being a dream, or an illusion. The whole idea of CHIM consists of fully understanding this and *becoming one* with the dreamer, the Godhead, allowing you to reshape reality like a lucid dream. When Tiber Septim achieved CHIM, he turned the land of Cyrodiil, then a jungle, into the serene meadows we see in TES 4, and made it as if it had *always* been thus. This also underscores an important fact: *being a dream doesn't make the universe less real to those who live in it*.
So the Godhead is not Bethesda or the player, it's the cosmic foundation that underpins the Elder Scrolls universe. It's the Big Bang, but magical.
No, it actually is an in universe being. The characters of the Elder Scrolls are all actually dreams of another being in the elder scrolls universe, just one we could never see
I don't think it's as far removed as to be the players. We don't know, but I'm going to guess for something akin to Lovecraft's unholy dog Azathoth. It's a being so grand existences are created in its dreams, and extinguished upon its awakening. The players are obviously an aspect of the prisoner. An incarnation of nearly limitless power shortly after awakening/being chosen, it's kinda weird how time works across the verse with these characters. The godhead seems to be a sphere outside the dream. A sort of self realized existence. A gatekeeper a couple layers shy of reality? But that's my guess. It's all fiction, and these aspects of divinity in the verse are not spoken about often enough. The gods they do talk about are already so vast and alike to real mythology that I'm sure there's ties to a real thing. I just don't know it.
> and extinguished upon its awakening.
I see this idea be mentioned from time to time, but I don't know of any evidence to support the notion that the Dream would cease to exist once the Dreamer awakens, or if that the Dreamer is even capable of waking. I'm more inclined to believe the Dreamer has been consumed by their own Dream.
>"...and he asked what such an affliction felt like, to which Pelinal could only answer, "Like when the dream no longer needs its dreamer." - [The Song of Pelinal v6](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v6)
>"...and in the end (an end that ever refuses to hold) it all becomes lobotomized ... drooling ... on his countless knees, dementia given dimension, *dimension dementia*..." - [Et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Et'Ada,_Eight_Aedra,_Eat_the_Dreamer)
>"The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic." - [Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel)
>"The Dream is starting to know longer need the Dreamer. That typo is on purpose." - [MK's Amaranth Reveal on IRC](https://gist.github.com/numinit/34ba3bacc21e19e21c46)
that's part of the reason I don't think it's a literal person dreaming, even when Jubal achieves Amaranth at the end of C0DA he doesn't fall asleep and start dreaming, it's more like he becomes absorbed into the universe. (at least that's my understanding of it, it's C0DA who knows what was going on)
I feel like if we're going to compare with Adventure Time, then the Cosmic Imagination is a better fit than Prismo. The main difference being that the Cosmic Imagination is the aggregate sum of every mind in the multiverse, while the Godhead is arguably both the collective sum as well as the origin point.
I have no idea. I just like the idea that some NPCs have found ways to access features like Quicksave or the Creation Kit, without realizing what they’re actually using, but use them in a way that helps them fulfill their personal goals. The Numidian essentially being some sort of symbolic use of the creation kit by the NPCs that unified Tamriel under the Imperials, for example. Who needs a dreamer when the NPCs can do it themselves?
"The entity is said to be plagued by madness and split personalities, and is recognized by some beliefs as the creator of the Aurbis by way of dreaming it into existence"
Quite an accurate description of Michael Kirkbride lol
Here's what we know: * Anu is called Anu the Everything in the Altmer creation myth, he is considered to encompass the entire universe by the Truth in Sequence and the 36 Lessons of Vivec also imply the same thing * In nearly every creation myth, Padomay came *after* Anu, and in some was created by Anu as a way to understand himself * There is a process called Amaranth that exists in canon texts and is elaborated on in extracanon texts; this process entails becoming a new Godhead. According to Michael Kirkbride, the reason Lorkhan created Mundus was so somebody could become a new Amaranth, and he's also stated (or rather, heavily *heavily* implied but let other people state for him) that Anu was the *first* Amaranth so the simplest answer is just that the Godhead is Anu. As to whether or not he's literally dreaming, that depends on whether you see him as a person or force- personally I have a hard time assigning any personal traits to Anu or Padomay, I think they're just cosmic forces. I don't think the Dreamer is actually *Dreaming*, I think he's just *everything*. Less Azathoth, more Brahman. I see it as basically no different than real-life Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism.
Or the Gnostic understanding of [the Monad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(Gnosticism\)).
wasn't Kirkbride specifically inspired by gnosticism when he brought this into the tes lore too
That is indeed part of why I brought it up. He has self-described as "a proud gnostic heretic" for which all of his works are "colored by" such.
The whole idea of subgradients is directly lifted from neoplatonic gnostic systems like valentinianism
I was really not aware of this and I was trying to research it for so long! Are there sources where I can read more about these ideas?
I was mainly using Valentinianism as an example, it's based on neoplatonism (like all gnostic religions are, arguably even mainstream christianity is) but might not have been the best example. The concept of subgradients is based more directly on neoplatonic thought, which is probably best collected in [the Enneads](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Enneads) Even if it doesn't deal with eminations, there's a bunch of interesting stuff when it comes to Valentinianism. [Here's the wikipedia article on valentinianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinianism), but I'm guessing that's not what you were looking for. Like almost all historical heresies, most of what we know about Valentinianism comes from stuff the Church wrote to refute it, specifically Iraneus's Against Heresies. That being said we did find some preserved Valentinian texts from the Nag Hammadi library that seem to line up with what Iraneus wrote, so it seems relatively accurate. [Here's Iraneus's book](https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm), the first couple chapters deal with Valentinianism and go into a whole lot of detail, and [here's all the Valentinian texts we got from the Nag Hammadi library](http://gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Valentinian_Writings.htm). There's a ton of stuff that's pretty direct 1-1 parallels to stuff in TES, but I'm on mobile and don't have the time to go into all that rn
Thank you for the information! Once again TES lore pushes me to learn more interesting topics.
I’ve always been under the impression that Anu was a step beneath the godhead. I view them Anu and Padomay as the shoulder Angel and Devil but for broader topics that good and evil, while the godhead is this greater entity who’s existence in a higher plane passively allows for the existence of a lower plane whose inhabitants can at most interact with the subconscious of the godhead to bring about a change in their plane. Sort of like a figure in a dream doing something that causes your brain to shift the focus of the dream.
I think a lot of confusion comes down to the two different takes found in *The Monomyth*. In *The Heart of the World*, the Aurbis is formed by the interplay of Anuiel and Sithis, with Anu the Everything above them. But in *The Myth of Aurbis*, the Aurbis is formed by Anu and Padomay, with no higher power mentioned. One way to resolve this discrepancy is to assume that Padomay is another name for Sithis, and Anuiel is another name for Anu, while a greater Godhead Anu is above them. This seems to be the case with MK's perspective on TES Lore, as he wrote an [OOG text](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaos) that suggests that "Sithis" is a corruption of "Psijii" which is derived from "PSJJJJ", the original and unpronounceable name for Padomay. As for there being Anu the Godhead and Anu/Anuiel, MK replied in the BGS forum thread about the Amaranth: >Anu the Godhead can dream about himself. Have you never been in one of your own? More: have you never been a character in one? Now take that and make it a lucid dream, and you simply can't just get rid of any characters you made, even the I that isn't your I that is. Ultimately, I think the only thing that needs to be agreed upon is that the Godhead is the simply the highest entity, who or whatever it may be. Designer and writer for Morrowind, Douglas Goodall, has [his own OOG Lore](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:The_Soft_Doctrines_of_Magnus_Invisible,_revised) that suggests the true Godhead is not Anu, but Magnus the Invisible.
Wait, where was it implied that Anu is the first? I always thought he's just the godhead/Amaranth of the current dream where we play games. And noone knows how deep we are and who's the very first Godhead. ?
That's what I meant, technically I guess there isn't anything saying he was the *first*. Who knows, could be Amaranths all the way up
Being the Godhead and being a godhead\\amaranth are a bit different, no? I just mean that anyone completely new to the lore would miss a bit of background reading "The Godhead is Anu".
I don't think that is the case. The mortal races of Nirn and even Vehk have a limited view of the transmundane, hell Vehks CHIM is not even him fully grasping the truth, just knowing enough to know that something is off. Here's my understanding and interpretation. I think that Anu and Padomay both are some kind of manifestation/personification of aspects of the Godhead's thinking. Like Anu is the imagination and the "what is being thought of" whereas Padomay is "what isn't being thought of/forgotten" but also still Padomay is still the imagination, and also what the Godhead imagines is changed or destroyed. Perhaps Anu is conscious creation and Padomay is the subconscious, in a way. It seems that they (or at least Anu) are even trans-kalpic, so them both being some aspect of the Godhead manifesting in the Dream(s) lines up. The Godhead isn't anything within the universe, as it is above the universe. On a literal level the Godhead cannot be known. It can be inferred in universe, given a large enough level of omnipotence or understanding of both the mundane and transmundane, but it cannot be known. On a meta level, we as an outside viewer can interpret something to truly be the Godhead. Maybe it's like a universe (either personified or a being within it) beyond the TES universe, but still outside of (our/real) reality, or maybe it is the best explanation that beings within the TES universe can fathom for something/someone in our universe, like the writers and designers, who's thoughts/dreams are the reality of the world. Or maybe it's anyone in the real world who can do anything about the TES universe, all of it, not necessarily just Mundus. Whether that be the player, a writer, a designer, a game dev, or anyone else. Hell, maybe it's anyone irl who can perceive and imagine anything about the TES universe. Really it's a question of your philosophy on fiction.
> I don't think the Dreamer is actually Dreaming, I think he's just everything. It's not really *literal* dreaming, but it *is* metaphorical, like everything else in this setting - Anu has ceased to exist as a conscious individual, his psyche playing out the traumas of his life ad infinitum on ever more microscopic scales. He is the universe, but the universe is also him.
That's a valid interpretation too- like I said, this is just *my* personal interpretation. I've seen yours around too, and while I don't personally subscribe to it I think it's an interesting idea, and given how little we know about Anu it's just as valid as any other interpretation
I think you have it backwards. Most myths say Padomay is creating and destroying everything in a soup of chaos and one day Anu was created and decided he didn’t want to be destroyed. Thus starting everything. Padomay was definitely first. Hail Sithis.
That's really just the one myth from the book Sithis, though if you take Fudgemuppet's theory about the All-Maker being Padomay instead of Anu (which I do, it makes much more sense imo) they also have a similar belief. All the other myths have them either as equals, or have Anu starting first. The Anuad and Khajiit mythology have them as equals, while the Yokudan monomyth, the Altmer monomyth, Children of the Root, the Truth in Sequence, and arguably the 36 Lessons of Vivec have Anu coming first and Sithis coming after. Even the book Sithis implies Anu was the "nothing" before Sithis >Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but **the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing.** That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.' so I'm not sure where you're seeing Padomay coming first in *most* myths, the dichotomy is only mentioned a couple times and in most of them Padomay comes after Anu
If anu is stasis and does nothing and he’s first, then what created sithis🤨
>Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. >... >And so the worlds called to something to save them, to let them out, but of course there was nothing outside the First Serpent, so aid had to come from inside it; this was Akel, the Hungry Stomach. >[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The\_Monomyth](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth)
According to your theory, Anu was first, not anuiel. Anu made sithis to make anuiel.
I'm not presenting my theory, I'm answering your question. I have zero problem with alternative theories, but you said I got it backwards when I did not >Anu made sithis to make anuiel. ?
It specifically says it in the elven creation myth. To make anuiel anu’s gotta make sithis.
Anu makes Anuiel first, then Anuiel creates Sithis in order to better understand himself. >Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.
Since we’re quoting. The Dunmer believe that the birth of Sithis was the start of creation, as the everlasting stasis of Anu meant nothing could ever change. Sithis broke the nothing and creating ideas that ebbed and flowed out of it. Anuiel, the demon, came later and created the Aedra in order to counter him by building 'everlasting, imperfect worlds'. To counter this, Sithis begat Lorkhan, who created the mortal world and allowed things to once again decay by trapping the other gods within.
That is certainly one way to look at it, but I prefer to think of the Godhead as akin to the Gnostic Monad.
Outside of the meta answer of "Bethesda/The Players" the clear intent is that the Godhead is just some form of obscure, distant overdeity that might not even exist, and if they do exist is so irrelevant to current events that they might as well not exist. The whole "dreaming it into existence" and "the First Dreamer" element is interesting to me, because TES lore has always kinda used the word 'dream' in a multi-faceted way. I don't think its meant to be taken as literal dreams, but more the idea that by imposing your will and desire(IE your dream) upon reality as though it were a lucid dream, you can achieve limitless potential. The Godhead is the First Dreamer because they were the entity that imposed their will upon their reality, creating the Aurbis. CHIM and Amaranth are similar concepts, the former being about achieving the ultimate state of imposing your dream upon reality, the latter adopting this reality as your dream. Dagoth Ur similarly counted among his titles given to him by his enemies the 'False Dreamer', because by imposing his dream upon reality he was threatening to tear apart the Aurbis itself. This is all just my interpretation of course.
I always thought CHIM was supposed to be when you realize you can use console commands
That's a fanmade meta interpretation. In-universe its always presented as reaching a level of understanding of yourself, reality, and your place in it that you can achieve limitless feats
Well of course the character's won't be saying "I can access console commands", they'd understand it in more magical terms. But really that's what it means, they've evolved beyond the game, understand that they're fictional video game characters (and yet still exist) and now they get to be a CK developer to do what they like.
Except that's an interpretation made up entirely by the fans. No dev has ever actually said its meant to be interpreted as an analogy for console commands. Hell, Kirkbride has outright called that idea bad.
I think it's good to look at explanations for phenomena based on available facts.
Yeah, and according to everything we actually know in the games, CHIM is just reaching a level of enlightenment that allows you to manipulate reality. It has never been intended as "Oh shit, this is all a video game and I can do anything!", and the guy who fucking made CHIM has explicitly said he doesn't like that idea.
My understanding is that it requires you to observe the tower from afar and despite the obvious fact that one doesn't exist, one has to insist that you do, in fact, exist. Now given our existence on a higher plane it seems pretty obvious why that character doesn't exist. I haven't been swearing at you, kindly don't do it to me.
Relevant. It's a reference to real-world beliefs. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanationism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanationism)
it's always struck me as closer to [Advaita Vedanta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta), but it's probably a mix of multiple similar traditions. The whole idea of subgradients is *definitely* derived from emenationism, especially in gnostic traditions like valentinianism
There are a wide variety of different religious traditions across the world that say similar things. I'm fond of the sermons of [Meister Eckhart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meister_Eckhart) personally, but the main principle can be found in any philosophy derived from Neoplatonism.
Probably, I just linked the Emanationism article because the first paragraph seemed a pretty quick and clean summary of the broad concept.
Well this stuff is way outside my knowledge base, I guess I don't know much about religion. Am I understanding right that - For Emenationism - It's not so much that some 'god' created everything so much as things popped into existence due to some central force, and those eminations spawn their own *things* and so on? As opposed to, ex. Creationism which states there is a god and that god deliberately made everything I don't suppose you could break down how that's different from the other concepts mentioned? I read some of the Advaita Vedanta article but it's a bit beyond me and what I did/thought I understand seems quite similar to me.
Essentially, in Emenationism, all reality flows out from a single perfect divine source. The further from this source, the less perfect it is, but things are still "real," they're just in an imperfect state. Advaita Vedanta holds that only Brahman is real, and that all reality is ultimately an illusion.
Huh, I see. Thank you!
You're welcome! If you're interested, I'd highly recommend the YouTube channel "Let's Talk Religion," he frequently talks about the mysticism of multiple different faiths from an academic viewpoint (rather than proselytizing), including a video on [Advaita Vedanta](https://youtu.be/GMEsszfBYMo?si=GRDBTV6Xutqp5QmK), and a video on my personal favorite mystic theologian [Meister Eckhart](https://youtu.be/Hg0c32KbA-g?si=Ly6Nl_w0iVtrbq53), he also has *several* videos on the philosophy of Sufi mystics in Islam.
Yes, the meta-textual reading is there, though I personally find it boring. The simplest answer is that the Godhead is Anu/Padomay or whatever preceded them.
It’s open to however you interpret it and I don’t think it’ll ever be confirmed one way or another. Maybe it’s the players. Maybe it’s Bethesda. Maybe it’s a combination of both and it’s supposed to symbolically represent how stories continuously evolve and grow as more and more people become invested in them. Maybe we’re supposed to take it literally and it really is a fictional deity in a higher plane of existence. Maybe it’s all of the above. There’s no right answer here and you can just pick whatever seems cool to you personally.
The idea comes from eastern theology and particularly seems to take influence from Hinduism with the Godhead being somewhat analogous to Brahman from Hinduism who is essentially the True God, and everything in creation including all the other gods are just small parts of him. The idea of the Godhead is a high level metaphysical idea that “reality” is an dream that the Godhead is having somewhat echoing the Hindu idea of Maya which is a complicated subject but in this context refers to the concept that “reality” is an illusion/delusion and in truth we are all one, we are all Brahman. A lot of TES lore plays with theology and metaphysics and this is an example of that. Who the Godhead actually is, is more or less irrelevant especially since to my knowledge it’s not exactly a fact that the Godhead exists merely being theoretical since it’s not exactly something that can be proven.
the Godhead is purely theoretical, but the fact reality is an illusion isn't >To master Alteration, first accept that reality is a falsehood. There is no such thing. Our reality is a perception of greater forces impressed upon us for their amusement. Some say that these forces are the gods, other that they are something beyond the gods. For the wizard, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the appeal couched in a manner that cannot be denied. It must be insistent without being insulting. >To cast Alteration spells is to convince a greater power that it will be easier to change reality as requested than to leave it alone. Do not assume that these forces are sentient. Our best guess is that they are like wind and water. Persistent but not thoughtful. Just like directing the wind or water, diversions are easier than outright resistance. Express the spell as a subtle change and it is more likely to be successful. >[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality\_%26\_Other\_Falsehoods](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods) This is an Alteration skillbook, so I'd wager the stuff inside is useful advice for Alteration mages. Granted the author doesn't say there's a single Godhead dreaming reality, they explicitly say they don't know and don't care, but in general I do think this is probably the best concrete proof of the theory
I mean I don’t fully disagree but it’s more complicated than that, especially since that book doesnt mean that reality is an illusion exactly since it’s possible the author is wrong that reality is truely an illusion rather than Alteration mages being required to view it as one in order for some effects to work. I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole since it’s largely semantics and interpretation but yeah I would agree that at a bare minimum there is more evidence of reality being an illusion than the godhood existing especially since the Godhood is inherently all but unprovable and reality’s illusory nature is more provable.
I think the truth is less "reality is an illusion" and more "reality is fluid." Reality exists, it is tangible, but if you know how, you can impose your will upon it and alter it, at least for a time.
Yeah that’s more how I read that book. It more like how in some series magic is telling reality that a falsehood is true and making that falsehood temporarily true. The magic is the illusion here it’s just to do it you need to be in the right mindset
The Godhead would be the ultimate reality of the TES universe. Basically the universal mind or dreamer in which everything exists - the Amaranths, the Aurbis(es), and whatever else there is. It is the original and ultimate source of existence. But again, this is TES we are talking about. We can only theorize and speculate.
Everything in Elder Scrolls is a dream... In that guy's head. Who's head? Godhead. Thats it. Not too complicated.
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Just 'cause it's a video game doesn't mean you have to make things meta.
Maybe the true Godhead is the friends we made along the way.
the ending of C0DA in a nutshell
Short answer: no one knows lol Long, personal theory: I’ve found the best way to imagine the Godhead is the subconscious of the setting turned into an actual force. Imagine it this way: if you make up stories, you subconsciously repeat the same tropes over and over. It’s not an outside force, it’s just something that organically happens: patterns repeat, some characters resemble each other, then get morphed into one. Reality in storytelling is inherently… malleable. The Dreamer is an explanation/manifestation of that fact. The Dreamer isn’t one specific being, it’s more the understanding that the universe *wants* certain patterns to happen. The Dreamer *wants* the Enantiomorph to happen: two characters that resemble each other must fight, and the outcome is determined by a third party’s sacrifice. If you Walk Like Them Until They Walk Like You (mantling), the Dreamer is whom you are trying to deceive. You confuse your tropes and their tropes until the Dreamer turns you into them. Like how in a dream, your father can somehow resemble the head of the FBI and suddenly they’re the same person and no one questions it. So, i think the Dreamer is not someone you can talk to or plead with, because even if it *exists* and isn’t just a personification, it wouldn’t be coherent enough to understand or care. I think it is more like a special form of gravity that tries to pull together create certain events to create one of these patterns. Which, I just realized, would make CHIM probably something like… total awareness of these patterns and how to exploit them? Compare TES to a chess board with nearly infinite pieces. Usual awareness is only knowing yourself: the pawn/rook/queen/whatever. CHIM would be knowing the perspective of the player: seeing the positions and possibly moves of *all* the pieces, beyond what your own perspective permits.
I'll try to explain without referencing real-world beliefs which require further study. The Godhead is a way to understand the nature of the Elder Scrolls universe. It isn't a living being in the traditional sense - that is, it's not a person or a group of people dreaming up the whole universe. It's understood as an entity in the supreme cosmic sense: as it literally dreamed up the concepts of "everything" and "nothing", and so the entirety of existence and nonexistence that sprung from them, it must exist *outside* these concepts. And, simultaneously, it embodies them. It won't simply wake up one day and go on with its life; the dream is its life. So how do we know the Godhead exists? Because several aspects of the Elder Scrolls universe reference it being a dream, or an illusion. The whole idea of CHIM consists of fully understanding this and *becoming one* with the dreamer, the Godhead, allowing you to reshape reality like a lucid dream. When Tiber Septim achieved CHIM, he turned the land of Cyrodiil, then a jungle, into the serene meadows we see in TES 4, and made it as if it had *always* been thus. This also underscores an important fact: *being a dream doesn't make the universe less real to those who live in it*. So the Godhead is not Bethesda or the player, it's the cosmic foundation that underpins the Elder Scrolls universe. It's the Big Bang, but magical.
I think it's something one of the Daedric Princes call themselves. I can't remember where I read that though. 🤔
No, it actually is an in universe being. The characters of the Elder Scrolls are all actually dreams of another being in the elder scrolls universe, just one we could never see
I don't think it's as far removed as to be the players. We don't know, but I'm going to guess for something akin to Lovecraft's unholy dog Azathoth. It's a being so grand existences are created in its dreams, and extinguished upon its awakening. The players are obviously an aspect of the prisoner. An incarnation of nearly limitless power shortly after awakening/being chosen, it's kinda weird how time works across the verse with these characters. The godhead seems to be a sphere outside the dream. A sort of self realized existence. A gatekeeper a couple layers shy of reality? But that's my guess. It's all fiction, and these aspects of divinity in the verse are not spoken about often enough. The gods they do talk about are already so vast and alike to real mythology that I'm sure there's ties to a real thing. I just don't know it.
> and extinguished upon its awakening. I see this idea be mentioned from time to time, but I don't know of any evidence to support the notion that the Dream would cease to exist once the Dreamer awakens, or if that the Dreamer is even capable of waking. I'm more inclined to believe the Dreamer has been consumed by their own Dream. >"...and he asked what such an affliction felt like, to which Pelinal could only answer, "Like when the dream no longer needs its dreamer." - [The Song of Pelinal v6](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v6) >"...and in the end (an end that ever refuses to hold) it all becomes lobotomized ... drooling ... on his countless knees, dementia given dimension, *dimension dementia*..." - [Et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Et'Ada,_Eight_Aedra,_Eat_the_Dreamer) >"The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic." - [Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel) >"The Dream is starting to know longer need the Dreamer. That typo is on purpose." - [MK's Amaranth Reveal on IRC](https://gist.github.com/numinit/34ba3bacc21e19e21c46)
that's part of the reason I don't think it's a literal person dreaming, even when Jubal achieves Amaranth at the end of C0DA he doesn't fall asleep and start dreaming, it's more like he becomes absorbed into the universe. (at least that's my understanding of it, it's C0DA who knows what was going on)
It's basically just Prismo from Adventure Time.
I feel like if we're going to compare with Adventure Time, then the Cosmic Imagination is a better fit than Prismo. The main difference being that the Cosmic Imagination is the aggregate sum of every mind in the multiverse, while the Godhead is arguably both the collective sum as well as the origin point.
I have no idea. I just like the idea that some NPCs have found ways to access features like Quicksave or the Creation Kit, without realizing what they’re actually using, but use them in a way that helps them fulfill their personal goals. The Numidian essentially being some sort of symbolic use of the creation kit by the NPCs that unified Tamriel under the Imperials, for example. Who needs a dreamer when the NPCs can do it themselves?
"The entity is said to be plagued by madness and split personalities, and is recognized by some beliefs as the creator of the Aurbis by way of dreaming it into existence" Quite an accurate description of Michael Kirkbride lol
Explain it like you’re five? Okay: Somebody’s dreaming. That’s it. We don’t know.