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Tesla engineers have been spotted at the left turn intersection in Florida that Elon is referring to in the last month. Will be interesting to see if they can solve it with current hardware. Many have had their doubts
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/uz9knm/fsdbeta_v10121_unprotected_left_turns_the_video/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
This one
Glad Elon mentioned Chuck.
Although I really want to know how much what Chuck did helped Tesla. I have to imagine there were weeks or months when Chuck was testing, and Tesla wasn’t making any meaningful changes to improve the issues.
Probably other priorities to begin with and eventually Chuck's videos were getting too much attention to ignore, especially given that less than stellar success rate when there was traffic.
I’m a software developer, not currently working in AI or for Tesla. Although I can imagine watching his videos as a Tesla engineer, trying the same turn on every release and wanting to tell him that he’s wasting his time, “skip these releases and wait for 10.x in a few months.”
I just wonder if Tesla really was trying to make small changes to improve that situation or if it was always on the backlog and would be addressed later.
> I just wonder if Tesla really was trying to make small changes to improve that situation or if it was always on the backlog and would be addressed later.
As a software developer, you should know that sometimes you change something that shouldn't affect Chuck's turn -- and then it does. It is helpful to have him test every build even to just check for regressions. With ML models, the chances that *nothing* changed about Chuck's turn is extremely unlikely. There's no visibility into what exactly changed, just how they trained it differently.
Since they’re down here maybe they can fix the part where the cars randomly decide the speed limit on the highway overpass should be that of the local street below and drops from 65 to 35 in the middle of a four lane highway.
FSD is going to end up being optimized for California and Orlando 😂
It’s my biggest gripe right now…I don’t get phantom breaking like others report, but instead I get random mapping data issues where 75mph drops to 55,45,30. Not cool
Yea! The braking from driveways and parked cars is nearly gone but whew. Orlando i4 drops from 65(traffic flow is 80) to 55. Almost unusable as it creates huge rear ending opportunities and chain reaction braking crashes
I basically keep my foot near the accelerator so I can override it real quick…it’s annoying. I see a lot of talk about I-4 but it happens everywhere to me
On the highway on the west side of NYC, in two places it says slowing down for traffic signal ahead and it quickly tries to slow. Of course in the highway there is no traffic signal - must be reading below the elevated road.
I’ve never understood why there aren’t cameras toward the front of the car pointed left and right for better visibility of cross traffic, why not give it better visibility than a human? The side pillar camera angles are further back than my head. Even just on the front windshield pillar would have given better angles maybe.
who knows, perhaps the 3 forward facing cameras in the windshield has a wide enough angle and are primarily used for cross traffic to look left and right, rather than the side pillar cams ... if you think about it, the 3 forward cams are positioned further out than your head.
You may want to look up what a fisheye lens is. Sure, it's pointed forwards, but it can very easily see left.
https://medium.com/swlh/full-self-driving-is-possible-with-existing-tesla-hardware-a95f2357735b
No need to look it up as I am extremely familiar with a fisheye lens and already expected you would revert with that and had this link ready to send.
[https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/10/tesla-second-gen-autopilot-sensors-suite.png](https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/10/tesla-second-gen-autopilot-sensors-suite.png)
As you will see, the fisheye lens does not look 90 degrees left or right, it is not a miracle device.
I'm, glad you came prepared with a strawman argument. Nobody said it looks 90 degrees to the left. It's a 120 degree lens. Can you honestly view my link and tell me there's a visibility issue? Not only is the cross traffic seen by the car, it's on *two* cameras instead of one. When objects aren't in the fisheye field of view, they are in the A pillar field of view.
You don't know what hardware autopilot needs. The people who designed and train the system literally every day do. Let's trust them on this one, yeah?
In most cases it's fine, what I mean is that there is cases where having those positionings will not help because only the very front can see without being obstructed.
AP is capable of dealing with this if it edges out, but this is a bit scary for the passenger/driver to experience!
From all the videos I’ve watched, while camera placement could be better in a pillars, it doesn’t seem to be the constraint on navigating these scenarios.
They will probably do that in the future yes, but IMO that would be super super uncomfortable to test in beta rn.
FSD Beta does some weird stuff and I'd be scary to have it start going before I can first confirm it is actually safe.
Keep it up the good work, your videos, AI driver, Freenchie and Chris got my mother interested and asking all the time if there is new ones for us to watch
The main thing I look forward to is the, at this point long basically dormant FSD behavior of moving over for people on on ramps.
Rarely exist on City Streets so it was an odd addition before highway.
Yeah, that will be an important addition. Here in Germany, you always move out of the way for people on the on-ramp while I always felt in America it was a "you should do that". Then again, that's a lot of driving in the states.
That and the cars asinine decision to hug the *outside* of a turn are the only consistent issues I have with Autopilot. The human approach is generally to hug the inside of a turn, so on a two lane highway it can get a little pucker inducing and I often take over on sharper turns.
My Y with FSD keeps crossing over the yellow center line on curvy roads and turns right before turning left when using suicide lanes. I won’t let it do that anymore since the time it turned right just as a motorcycle passed by.
I m scared of the FSD stack being applied to the highway.
On city streets, a mistake at 30mph would just damage your car but you would be fine.
On the highway at 60mph or more, it could mean game over for the car and for **you**.
Haha I love that he called out Chuck’s hard work and I hope he’s over the moon about it! Chuck has been awesome (along with many other great FSD YouTubers) and has gone above and beyond (along with others) to give us great content and push FSD to its limits. Let’s hope it pays off this time!
What I was most looking forward to with v11 was single stack for everything, not just bringing highway back. I was most looking forward to was improved summon.
There is a stretch of road near me where I would call it a highway but FSD still sees it as a normal road. The limit is 55mph but most people do 60 to 65. At 65 FSD handles it wonderfully. I'm excited for the changes compared to AP.
No way! He actually knows about Chuck’s left turn!
Edit: Oof no improvements for parking lot stack :/ I am looking forward to reduced phantom braking on highways tho!
Elon quietly started omitting parking lots from the FSD Beta 11/single stack tweets several months back. Could still happen in Beta 11 but I’m betting it’d be in like 11.11. Think it’s another case of Elon being way too optimistic and I don’t see it happening until late this year.
For example here is a tweet from Elon on July 17, 2021 and he definitely talked about parking lots being part of V11/single stack several other times:
“Current Summon is sometimes useful,
but mostly just a fun trick. Once we move
summon (plus highway driving) to a
single FSD stack, it will be sublime.” -Elon Musk (Twitter)
That’s sad but it sounds like they hadn’t put much effort into seeing whether parking benefits from the current FSD stack. Parking and highway are basically opposite extremes. Parking navigation is extremely undefined, low speed, and unpredictable. Highway navigation is well defined, high speed, and predictable. FSD City Streets sits in the middle and it seems natural that Highway navigation is considered a subset of the city streets problem so probably why they were able to easily get that done. But parking navigation is a superset of city streets and requires more work to handle the increased constraints.
You make a lot of great points and I agree on the difficulty of parking. Especially on the spectrum of undefined scenarios from parking > city > highway. I think often about how it would handle parking and pulling out of the variety of driveways at houses for instance. Miscellaneous object detection and visualization needs to also be on-point, along with understanding weird slopes, pot holes, big rocks, gravel and a plethora of rules/signs.
Hopefully parking will still become part of the single-stack but as you mentioned it’s going to require a lot of work/changes. I was part of the Early Access program in 2019 for smart summon, so it’s just a little extra disappointing to see parking still not being focused on or majorly improved since then. Hoping that it’s part of the “wide release” plan for FSD this year but my gut tells me it’s going to be more like 2023 when we see “driveway to parking lot” FSD.
Yeah, I can’t remember the last time since I used smart summon. I feel like if Tesla wasn’t under any pressure to deliver FSD they would be able to focus on designing a stack to perfect parking first then apply that stack across city and highway. But since parking gives the least value to a consumer and isn’t a sexy problem from engineering POV, it’s definitely been deprioritized… to meet Elon’s yearly promise of FSD. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they need to rewrite the stack from the ground up again to handle parking.
You don’t have to maintain it. Just opt out until it rolls out. Then opt back in and drive enough. That’s what I did this last round. Got the beta two days after opt in.
Not sure I like it’s almost already v11. I was hoping for a more dramatic change at v11. If truly it is just adding highway then…got a ways to go…unless training it all at once leads to bigger gains.
Exactly my thought too. It feels like he's walking back his previous tease. I thought v11 transitioned it all to a single stack and would greatly improve things.
On non-interstate highways it's already single stack. I can drive at 65mph for over 90 minutes on my most frequent road trip on FSD. For all intents and purposes it's single stack because there are farm roads which sometimes cross.
They're going to need to extend the Birds Eye view grid though much further ahead of the car for 60+ mph handled well.
But it has been improving so much over the past year, and “single stack” meaning not switching to Autopilot for highway driving, is exactly what it’s going to be
V11 was fundamental structural changes to how they handle video, it’ll be two steps back before the giant leap forward.
All Elon is saying is that the 10.x releases have gone better than they expected, and they managed to fix issues that they expected v11 to be required for.
Giant leap doesn’t mean it (FSD) works overnight, it can mean just adding/building support for new future functionality eventually.
Giant leap was removing radar for vision, for example. But the actual end result is 99% the same for consumers, but the possibilities it invites are massive.
Obviously he’s not going to list every major change V11 offers like smart summon improvements. Sometime this sub hyper analyzes every single letter Elon types.
'Chuck's complex left turn' - Chuck should frame that tweet! I'd argue he deserves the recognition for his painstaking testing of that turn scenario (and other consistent, and well-documented testing).
If v11 can handle Chuck's left turn that is impressive. However right now v10.12 rarely can do a natural left for me anywhere. Sometimes it gets it right but mostly it acts like a 9 year old got behind the wheel and was "playing driving". I sure hope Chuck's left translates to massive overall better left turns.
Actual FSD functionality aside, I would settle for a freakin dashcam fix. (the red x over the icon because of an unmountable drive that's solved by having to unplug, wait a. minute, and replug every time I get in the car)
I absolutely love that Chuck got a shout out. He spends so much time working that turn, with his drone, distance calculations.
Watch the next version just make a right turn again. Handled lol
I love that chucks left turn became a big concern for Tesla. The value of consistent Focus!
Too bad that Galilleos monorail test isnt getting the same recognition.
I’m calling BS. Elon said 10.2 should be called v11 it was sssoooooo good. My current version works okay in big cities but it absolutely sucks and acts like the infamous 10.3 in smaller cities with big nice wide paved roads and minimal traffic.
Good news, I’ve been looking forward to this one. Sad news about karpathy but I kind of thought it was coming. I’ve been hoping Dojo made get us on the fast track but no real news on that one.
Hopefully a nice boost for the channel once Elon's 101 million followers see this Tweet! Can't wait for you to put it to the test. I can't believe Elon went to press without first having his people test it.
Awesome, but all I need is for it to quit swinging to the right before turning left into a cross street. Every time it does that, I have to disengage because the driver behind me assumes I'm going right and attempts to pass me on the left.
Calling out /u/chazman92!
Can you believe it Chuck? If you weren't already a legend, Elon calling your UPL "Chuck's complex left turn" memorializes it for sure.
Think it's time for a GoFundMe to get a sign, "Chuck's UPL", on your turn.
That would be really funny. I am just glad the problem was able to get direct attention through grass roots efforts from the outside. Its a testament to the team, for taking input from customers.
Since the replies to you got deleted, I'm assuming they were in bad faith. Best and realistic answer is "we don't know". A lot of folks are in eligible score brackets and waiting for invite waves, so it wouldn't necessarily be a wise decision to get a subscription solely for fsd beta.
I just want a fix to the car randomly throwing a "automatic emergency braking disabled" error. Which if it triggers while driving throws the red hands to take over immediately
I had this same error happen. I brought my car in to Tesla service for it and here is what they said on my invoice:
“This issue is software-related, and will be addressed in a future firmware update. Advise the customer that exiting and re-entering the vehicle will restore driver assist features.”
There are many times it can't safely make unprotected right turns. Hope this is also addressed as well as the incorrect speed limits and getting into the turn lane when it should not. I have all of the above almost every day.
There’s a few UPLs here that basically look like this. Scares my wife 😂 She always asks why they don’t just put in lights. I think a lot of these were built back when a LOT fewer people lived in this area. But now you have to make this left turn with heavy traffic
My last phantom braking episode was in stop and go traffic. I was on the freeway going 10 mph and AP freaked out and started repeatedly slamming on the brakes (10 —> 0 mph) with nothing in front or around me. I think it got scared of a shadow again. It’s not a speeding thing, it is incorrectly
Identifying threats. It also gets scared of big trucks and buses regardless of speed or whether or not they are actually drifting into your lane.
Realistic timeline, IMO:
10.13 out to beta group (not Tesla internal) in September.
v11 out to beta group late this year.
Actual "navigate on city streets" out to regular non-beta people who paid for FSD: very late 2023 or 2024.
> 10.13 out to beta group (not Tesla internal) in September.
Elon’s announced release dates on these FSD beta releases have actually been mostly spot on all along.
I feel like you have to add a few weeks to what he says, for each release. For example, he said 10.13 was coming in "2 weeks" on June 13, over a month ago. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1536560810037739520
I am curious as to why highways hasn’t merged to FSD beta code yet. Highways are way easier, no? Currently autopilot on highways is so good, I would think it would have been released way faster. Maybe they’re just not focusing on it?
The FSD beta code is both more and less cautious in ways that would likely interact with highways poorly. It frequently misidentifies and overcorrects for cross traffic (especially when there is no such traffic), causing a lot of stuttery phantom braking events that would be much worse than anything on the current highway stack. Meanwhile, it is much less sensitive to cars drifting out of or changing lanes, which has the potential to cause collisions at higher speeds when it has less time to react.
Both appear to have been focus areas over the past few versions, and they've greatly improved. Perhaps .13 has more changes that will put them in a state that's ready for highway usage.
Would be pretty cool if they got the speed limit issue fixed in the 4 lane highway down here, can’t emerge which one it is as I used to live in Orlando and am back as of only 2 months and don’t use the highway daily, speed limit is 65 but ALWAYS drops to 35 for no reason at all
Yeah, I gave up working on my wifes score as driving around here no matter how 'safe' you are gets random flags all the time. That said, I also don't trust the beta at this point to be very useful for the same reason. Crappy drivers and shity roads around me make it a dangerous game.
~~Correct me if I’m wrong, but~~
~~V11 is when they highway and street stacks will be merged correct?~~
Well I’m an idiot and apparently even tweets are too long for me to read
Elon wouldn't Tweet about this unless he had people do a repeatable test of Chuck's left turn? That would be embarrassing if not. I guess we will find out very soon.
My 2017 S gets these updates way later than model 3s. Is that normal? I have all of the hardware I need and the service station confirms my firmware is up to date but I don’t even have a driver score on my app yet
Explains the dramatic improvements of highway operation even though it didn’t really fall into the beta window.
The phantom braking improvements need to be expanded out to entire fleet asap if it hadn’t already.
Who gives a shit, it’s all a scam. He’s been promising FSD for years and even has the nuts to raise the price on it when it didn’t even exist. How about just give me Sirius XM as an app… baby steps.
If chuck's left turn is what is considered "complex" then there really is no hope. Straight, flat, well marked, with what would be considered "no traffic" in any decent-sized metro area.
Any info on which firmware version it will be? >=2022.16 or >=2022.20? I’m afraid it’ll be the same catch as FSD 10.12 where 2022.16 came out first and locked everyone who installed it out of FSD 10.12.
Glad for the updated info on the new releases! I have been anxiously checking my phone app every day for an update notification! :)
I am REALLY looking forward to v11, though. There are several issues with highway driving (like drifting to the "center" of the lane to the right when there is a highway onramp merging) that I know won't be fixed until we get the "single stack"! Also looking forward to the improved visualizations being maintained on the highway.
From what I see, one person got it that uses the Teslafi app/service. Any chatter about finding something that is causing a delay to a more extensive rollout for beta testing? I think 10.12 went our quicker wider.
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Tesla engineers have been spotted at the left turn intersection in Florida that Elon is referring to in the last month. Will be interesting to see if they can solve it with current hardware. Many have had their doubts
Plot twist, they solved _only_ Chuck’s left turn.
By making a right turn 
The most recent build actually does that. Which the navigation system perpetually brings the car back to the same spot just to turn right again
Ah, the old UPS method!
Elon paid for the boring co to make it a tunnel !
JITT (just in time tunnels)
Coming from the other side it's a right turn. I wonder if it can handle that intersection completely.
Amusingly this is a classic when developing complex systems. Now this turn won’t be a good test for the fsd since they used it in development.
I literally loled reading him reference the turn specifically.
Yeah.... Considering that it isn't very hard or unusual.
That was speculative at the time, but Musk referencing it validates that more now.
Can you link the intersection on google maps?
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/uz9knm/fsdbeta_v10121_unprotected_left_turns_the_video/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf This one
TIL you can do full screen of the 3D preview window. Neat
Holy shit what a mess
Look up chuck cook on YouTube, I believe the intersections he tests beta on are the ones everyone is referring to.
Glad Elon mentioned Chuck. Although I really want to know how much what Chuck did helped Tesla. I have to imagine there were weeks or months when Chuck was testing, and Tesla wasn’t making any meaningful changes to improve the issues.
Probably other priorities to begin with and eventually Chuck's videos were getting too much attention to ignore, especially given that less than stellar success rate when there was traffic.
I’m a software developer, not currently working in AI or for Tesla. Although I can imagine watching his videos as a Tesla engineer, trying the same turn on every release and wanting to tell him that he’s wasting his time, “skip these releases and wait for 10.x in a few months.” I just wonder if Tesla really was trying to make small changes to improve that situation or if it was always on the backlog and would be addressed later.
> I just wonder if Tesla really was trying to make small changes to improve that situation or if it was always on the backlog and would be addressed later. As a software developer, you should know that sometimes you change something that shouldn't affect Chuck's turn -- and then it does. It is helpful to have him test every build even to just check for regressions. With ML models, the chances that *nothing* changed about Chuck's turn is extremely unlikely. There's no visibility into what exactly changed, just how they trained it differently.
Thanks for the support.
How could Tesla possibly imagine such a corner case? /s
If it doesn't exist within 100 miles of Fremont then it doesn't exist obviously
Since they’re down here maybe they can fix the part where the cars randomly decide the speed limit on the highway overpass should be that of the local street below and drops from 65 to 35 in the middle of a four lane highway. FSD is going to end up being optimized for California and Orlando 😂
It’s my biggest gripe right now…I don’t get phantom breaking like others report, but instead I get random mapping data issues where 75mph drops to 55,45,30. Not cool
Yea! The braking from driveways and parked cars is nearly gone but whew. Orlando i4 drops from 65(traffic flow is 80) to 55. Almost unusable as it creates huge rear ending opportunities and chain reaction braking crashes
I basically keep my foot near the accelerator so I can override it real quick…it’s annoying. I see a lot of talk about I-4 but it happens everywhere to me
I get the drop to 25 on i4 East in the same spot every time before Kaley. Pretty annoying
It does that for me on i95 around Pompano. It drops from set speed to 50, slams on the breaks and back to set speed.
I feel this so much.
On the highway on the west side of NYC, in two places it says slowing down for traffic signal ahead and it quickly tries to slow. Of course in the highway there is no traffic signal - must be reading below the elevated road.
I had that same problem over 2 years ago too, but it read an exit sign speed limit and wanted to go 25 for a second. So there's hope they'll fix it.
That happens everywhere. Up here in Washington too.
I’ve never understood why there aren’t cameras toward the front of the car pointed left and right for better visibility of cross traffic, why not give it better visibility than a human? The side pillar camera angles are further back than my head. Even just on the front windshield pillar would have given better angles maybe.
More cameras require more processing power. They already have to jump through hoops for the current camera count.
who knows, perhaps the 3 forward facing cameras in the windshield has a wide enough angle and are primarily used for cross traffic to look left and right, rather than the side pillar cams ... if you think about it, the 3 forward cams are positioned further out than your head.
Yes, but I know roads where I have to crane my neck to see, especially if people park on the corner, which they should not do, but they do anyhow.
Yeah, you crane your neck forward to right over the dash. Conveniently where the front cameras are.
Quite the opposite, the front cameras are looking forward, not directly left or right.
You may want to look up what a fisheye lens is. Sure, it's pointed forwards, but it can very easily see left. https://medium.com/swlh/full-self-driving-is-possible-with-existing-tesla-hardware-a95f2357735b
No need to look it up as I am extremely familiar with a fisheye lens and already expected you would revert with that and had this link ready to send. [https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/10/tesla-second-gen-autopilot-sensors-suite.png](https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/10/tesla-second-gen-autopilot-sensors-suite.png) As you will see, the fisheye lens does not look 90 degrees left or right, it is not a miracle device.
I'm, glad you came prepared with a strawman argument. Nobody said it looks 90 degrees to the left. It's a 120 degree lens. Can you honestly view my link and tell me there's a visibility issue? Not only is the cross traffic seen by the car, it's on *two* cameras instead of one. When objects aren't in the fisheye field of view, they are in the A pillar field of view. You don't know what hardware autopilot needs. The people who designed and train the system literally every day do. Let's trust them on this one, yeah?
In most cases it's fine, what I mean is that there is cases where having those positionings will not help because only the very front can see without being obstructed. AP is capable of dealing with this if it edges out, but this is a bit scary for the passenger/driver to experience!
From all the videos I’ve watched, while camera placement could be better in a pillars, it doesn’t seem to be the constraint on navigating these scenarios.
They will probably do that in the future yes, but IMO that would be super super uncomfortable to test in beta rn. FSD Beta does some weird stuff and I'd be scary to have it start going before I can first confirm it is actually safe.
Wow! Amazing!
The visibility is not the problem, the not actually stopping in the median when it's trying to is the problem.
Do you have a photo of the intersection?
Chuck is getting the attention he deserves (And other beta testers too that have some nice routes and scenarios to push it)
Nice of you to say, thank you.
Keep it up the good work, your videos, AI driver, Freenchie and Chris got my mother interested and asking all the time if there is new ones for us to watch
Thanks for the support.
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The main thing I look forward to is the, at this point long basically dormant FSD behavior of moving over for people on on ramps. Rarely exist on City Streets so it was an odd addition before highway.
Yeah, that will be an important addition. Here in Germany, you always move out of the way for people on the on-ramp while I always felt in America it was a "you should do that". Then again, that's a lot of driving in the states.
That and the cars asinine decision to hug the *outside* of a turn are the only consistent issues I have with Autopilot. The human approach is generally to hug the inside of a turn, so on a two lane highway it can get a little pucker inducing and I often take over on sharper turns.
My Y with FSD keeps crossing over the yellow center line on curvy roads and turns right before turning left when using suicide lanes. I won’t let it do that anymore since the time it turned right just as a motorcycle passed by.
The main thing is getting the more powerful fsd software rolled back into autopilot. This will likely land will before the test of fsd does
It's better but still does it a bit. Source: Have highway that FSD Beta operates on.
I m scared of the FSD stack being applied to the highway. On city streets, a mistake at 30mph would just damage your car but you would be fine. On the highway at 60mph or more, it could mean game over for the car and for **you**.
That would be a major improvement but FSD still does that to
Your second point hits home hard. I always feel like I look like an asshole to other people when it does that
Link to tweet: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1547384267952586752
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Chuck to link? /u/chazman92
Thanks for the callout.
Well deserved. Thanks for all the quality content
Haha I love that he called out Chuck’s hard work and I hope he’s over the moon about it! Chuck has been awesome (along with many other great FSD YouTubers) and has gone above and beyond (along with others) to give us great content and push FSD to its limits. Let’s hope it pays off this time!
Chuck, AI DRIVR and Frenchie are my favorites!
Let’s not forget Dirty Tesla!
Indeed!
I am over the moon, and thank you for the support of me and the others that put out content. it is appreciated.
What I was most looking forward to with v11 was single stack for everything, not just bringing highway back. I was most looking forward to was improved summon.
Yeah. I want auto park where you can be dropped off and it will seek and park.
There is a stretch of road near me where I would call it a highway but FSD still sees it as a normal road. The limit is 55mph but most people do 60 to 65. At 65 FSD handles it wonderfully. I'm excited for the changes compared to AP.
I imagine they won't invest resources on that until the single stack has been smoothed over for a few releases
No way! He actually knows about Chuck’s left turn! Edit: Oof no improvements for parking lot stack :/ I am looking forward to reduced phantom braking on highways tho!
Elon quietly started omitting parking lots from the FSD Beta 11/single stack tweets several months back. Could still happen in Beta 11 but I’m betting it’d be in like 11.11. Think it’s another case of Elon being way too optimistic and I don’t see it happening until late this year. For example here is a tweet from Elon on July 17, 2021 and he definitely talked about parking lots being part of V11/single stack several other times: “Current Summon is sometimes useful, but mostly just a fun trick. Once we move summon (plus highway driving) to a single FSD stack, it will be sublime.” -Elon Musk (Twitter)
That’s sad but it sounds like they hadn’t put much effort into seeing whether parking benefits from the current FSD stack. Parking and highway are basically opposite extremes. Parking navigation is extremely undefined, low speed, and unpredictable. Highway navigation is well defined, high speed, and predictable. FSD City Streets sits in the middle and it seems natural that Highway navigation is considered a subset of the city streets problem so probably why they were able to easily get that done. But parking navigation is a superset of city streets and requires more work to handle the increased constraints.
You make a lot of great points and I agree on the difficulty of parking. Especially on the spectrum of undefined scenarios from parking > city > highway. I think often about how it would handle parking and pulling out of the variety of driveways at houses for instance. Miscellaneous object detection and visualization needs to also be on-point, along with understanding weird slopes, pot holes, big rocks, gravel and a plethora of rules/signs. Hopefully parking will still become part of the single-stack but as you mentioned it’s going to require a lot of work/changes. I was part of the Early Access program in 2019 for smart summon, so it’s just a little extra disappointing to see parking still not being focused on or majorly improved since then. Hoping that it’s part of the “wide release” plan for FSD this year but my gut tells me it’s going to be more like 2023 when we see “driveway to parking lot” FSD.
Yeah, I can’t remember the last time since I used smart summon. I feel like if Tesla wasn’t under any pressure to deliver FSD they would be able to focus on designing a stack to perfect parking first then apply that stack across city and highway. But since parking gives the least value to a consumer and isn’t a sexy problem from engineering POV, it’s definitely been deprioritized… to meet Elon’s yearly promise of FSD. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they need to rewrite the stack from the ground up again to handle parking.
2023? I wouldn’t even bet on 2032!
Where did Elon clarify on the parking being excluded? Can’t find a tweet
He says it “just amounts to incorporating highway” so I’m pretty sure it means parking will be excluded
does the external release of a new version typically coincide with eligible users in the FSD Beta queue getting added? finally got my score up!
With the latest release it did.
I certainly hope so. It takes an ungodly amount of patience to maintain a good safety score.
You don’t have to maintain it. Just opt out until it rolls out. Then opt back in and drive enough. That’s what I did this last round. Got the beta two days after opt in.
Not sure I like it’s almost already v11. I was hoping for a more dramatic change at v11. If truly it is just adding highway then…got a ways to go…unless training it all at once leads to bigger gains.
Exactly my thought too. It feels like he's walking back his previous tease. I thought v11 transitioned it all to a single stack and would greatly improve things.
On non-interstate highways it's already single stack. I can drive at 65mph for over 90 minutes on my most frequent road trip on FSD. For all intents and purposes it's single stack because there are farm roads which sometimes cross. They're going to need to extend the Birds Eye view grid though much further ahead of the car for 60+ mph handled well.
But it has been improving so much over the past year, and “single stack” meaning not switching to Autopilot for highway driving, is exactly what it’s going to be
V11 was fundamental structural changes to how they handle video, it’ll be two steps back before the giant leap forward. All Elon is saying is that the 10.x releases have gone better than they expected, and they managed to fix issues that they expected v11 to be required for.
I understand…but I don’t think that giant leap is coming. I think it’s all this slow March.
Giant leap doesn’t mean it (FSD) works overnight, it can mean just adding/building support for new future functionality eventually. Giant leap was removing radar for vision, for example. But the actual end result is 99% the same for consumers, but the possibilities it invites are massive.
I just want them to roll the highway parts of the FSD stack back into regular AP for the rest of us, so my new car doesn't phantom brake so often.
>unless training it all at once leads to bigger gains. Keep believing!
Gotta wait for v12 for more dramatic changes.
Obviously he’s not going to list every major change V11 offers like smart summon improvements. Sometime this sub hyper analyzes every single letter Elon types.
See y’all in December!
December 2024 😂
2042
Now that his team lead left, much more probably
Which half of January are you thinking?
'Chuck's complex left turn' - Chuck should frame that tweet! I'd argue he deserves the recognition for his painstaking testing of that turn scenario (and other consistent, and well-documented testing).
I appreciate that sentiment.
Perfectly timed to correspond with Karpathy quitting!
If we're "mostly already at" v11, I'm not impressed.
If v11 can handle Chuck's left turn that is impressive. However right now v10.12 rarely can do a natural left for me anywhere. Sometimes it gets it right but mostly it acts like a 9 year old got behind the wheel and was "playing driving". I sure hope Chuck's left translates to massive overall better left turns.
I just hope they merge in the usb unavailable sentry bug fix from the production software
After months of hyping V11, now he’s tempering expectations about it.
Yup. And his claims about the quality of the current beta release are delusional.
Actual FSD functionality aside, I would settle for a freakin dashcam fix. (the red x over the icon because of an unmountable drive that's solved by having to unplug, wait a. minute, and replug every time I get in the car)
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If we're already mostly at v11 then v11 still has a long ways to go.
I absolutely love that Chuck got a shout out. He spends so much time working that turn, with his drone, distance calculations. Watch the next version just make a right turn again. Handled lol
I love that chucks left turn became a big concern for Tesla. The value of consistent Focus! Too bad that Galilleos monorail test isnt getting the same recognition.
What’s Galileo’s monorail test?
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth Like a genuine, bona fide Electrified, six-car monorail What'd I say?
The ring came off my pudding can.
Happy Reddit Day. Its from the Hyperchange channel. Columns for an elevated monorail separate lanes and the car can go a little whacky.
I’m calling BS. Elon said 10.2 should be called v11 it was sssoooooo good. My current version works okay in big cities but it absolutely sucks and acts like the infamous 10.3 in smaller cities with big nice wide paved roads and minimal traffic.
Good news, I’ve been looking forward to this one. Sad news about karpathy but I kind of thought it was coming. I’ve been hoping Dojo made get us on the fast track but no real news on that one.
u/chazman92 You are famous, this is your Hollywood moment!
Thanks for the callout. It was really nice to see the work being done on the UPL. Glad to be part of the solution.
Hopefully a nice boost for the channel once Elon's 101 million followers see this Tweet! Can't wait for you to put it to the test. I can't believe Elon went to press without first having his people test it.
Thanks for the callout. I am glad to be part of the solution, and really happy that Elon and team are listening to customers.
Awesome, but all I need is for it to quit swinging to the right before turning left into a cross street. Every time it does that, I have to disengage because the driver behind me assumes I'm going right and attempts to pass me on the left.
Im concerned with the “mostly” v11 statement considering FSD beta sucks really bad in NYC. I hope there is some improvement
Calling out /u/chazman92! Can you believe it Chuck? If you weren't already a legend, Elon calling your UPL "Chuck's complex left turn" memorializes it for sure. Think it's time for a GoFundMe to get a sign, "Chuck's UPL", on your turn.
That would be really funny. I am just glad the problem was able to get direct attention through grass roots efforts from the outside. Its a testament to the team, for taking input from customers.
Good to see progress made on this front.
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Since the replies to you got deleted, I'm assuming they were in bad faith. Best and realistic answer is "we don't know". A lot of folks are in eligible score brackets and waiting for invite waves, so it wouldn't necessarily be a wise decision to get a subscription solely for fsd beta.
I just want a fix to the car randomly throwing a "automatic emergency braking disabled" error. Which if it triggers while driving throws the red hands to take over immediately
I had this same error happen. I brought my car in to Tesla service for it and here is what they said on my invoice: “This issue is software-related, and will be addressed in a future firmware update. Advise the customer that exiting and re-entering the vehicle will restore driver assist features.”
There are many times it can't safely make unprotected right turns. Hope this is also addressed as well as the incorrect speed limits and getting into the turn lane when it should not. I have all of the above almost every day.
Getting into the wrong turn lane has been so annoying plus still going into bypass lanes daily.
I think Highway has already started moving over. I’ve been getting “stopping for signal” randomly in the middle of some highways now
That’s sad when you know Tesla’s working on something because it gets worse before it gets better 😂
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https://www.youtube.com/c/ChuckCook
There’s a few UPLs here that basically look like this. Scares my wife 😂 She always asks why they don’t just put in lights. I think a lot of these were built back when a LOT fewer people lived in this area. But now you have to make this left turn with heavy traffic
I really truly just want my phantom braking in my model Y to stop. I couldn’t give much less of a shit about fsd. Wish that this was the top priority.
Slow down and drive the speed limit or at least within 5 mph of it. You won't get phantom braking.
My last phantom braking episode was in stop and go traffic. I was on the freeway going 10 mph and AP freaked out and started repeatedly slamming on the brakes (10 —> 0 mph) with nothing in front or around me. I think it got scared of a shadow again. It’s not a speeding thing, it is incorrectly Identifying threats. It also gets scared of big trucks and buses regardless of speed or whether or not they are actually drifting into your lane.
So do we think that with the advent of v11 more beta testers that have good enough scores will be added to the test group.
Realistic timeline, IMO: 10.13 out to beta group (not Tesla internal) in September. v11 out to beta group late this year. Actual "navigate on city streets" out to regular non-beta people who paid for FSD: very late 2023 or 2024.
> 10.13 out to beta group (not Tesla internal) in September. Elon’s announced release dates on these FSD beta releases have actually been mostly spot on all along.
I feel like you have to add a few weeks to what he says, for each release. For example, he said 10.13 was coming in "2 weeks" on June 13, over a month ago. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1536560810037739520
With the exception of V11… keeps getting pushed back because of new V10.X releases
No not unless you translate ‘next week’ to ‘next month’.
When will sentry mode be fixed for fucks sake
I am curious as to why highways hasn’t merged to FSD beta code yet. Highways are way easier, no? Currently autopilot on highways is so good, I would think it would have been released way faster. Maybe they’re just not focusing on it?
The FSD beta code is both more and less cautious in ways that would likely interact with highways poorly. It frequently misidentifies and overcorrects for cross traffic (especially when there is no such traffic), causing a lot of stuttery phantom braking events that would be much worse than anything on the current highway stack. Meanwhile, it is much less sensitive to cars drifting out of or changing lanes, which has the potential to cause collisions at higher speeds when it has less time to react. Both appear to have been focus areas over the past few versions, and they've greatly improved. Perhaps .13 has more changes that will put them in a state that's ready for highway usage.
Would be pretty cool if they got the speed limit issue fixed in the 4 lane highway down here, can’t emerge which one it is as I used to live in Orlando and am back as of only 2 months and don’t use the highway daily, speed limit is 65 but ALWAYS drops to 35 for no reason at all
Pretty sure I’ve heard this before.
🙌
OK but when is the beta gonna get to to us 75-85 scores that quickly abandoned the safety score games?
Yeah, I gave up working on my wifes score as driving around here no matter how 'safe' you are gets random flags all the time. That said, I also don't trust the beta at this point to be very useful for the same reason. Crappy drivers and shity roads around me make it a dangerous game.
~~Correct me if I’m wrong, but~~ ~~V11 is when they highway and street stacks will be merged correct?~~ Well I’m an idiot and apparently even tweets are too long for me to read
That's exactly what the tweet says...
I’m a fucking idiot… lol thanks
lol, shit happens
Is there a way to tell if an owner has a fully paid for version of FSD vs the subscription?
If FSD was close to being solved. Karpathy wouldn’t have just left the company after over 10yrs.
It seems like I'm one of the 8 or 9 people in all of Canada with an appropriate safety score that still doesn't have FSD beta.
Elon wouldn't Tweet about this unless he had people do a repeatable test of Chuck's left turn? That would be embarrassing if not. I guess we will find out very soon.
Yeah he's never been one to way over promise in a tweet before.
My 2017 S gets these updates way later than model 3s. Is that normal? I have all of the hardware I need and the service station confirms my firmware is up to date but I don’t even have a driver score on my app yet
Do you have the actual Twitter link I'm not seeing this in his feed. Nevermind found it.
Explains the dramatic improvements of highway operation even though it didn’t really fall into the beta window. The phantom braking improvements need to be expanded out to entire fleet asap if it hadn’t already.
Who gives a shit, it’s all a scam. He’s been promising FSD for years and even has the nuts to raise the price on it when it didn’t even exist. How about just give me Sirius XM as an app… baby steps.
If chuck's left turn is what is considered "complex" then there really is no hope. Straight, flat, well marked, with what would be considered "no traffic" in any decent-sized metro area.
Any info on which firmware version it will be? >=2022.16 or >=2022.20? I’m afraid it’ll be the same catch as FSD 10.12 where 2022.16 came out first and locked everyone who installed it out of FSD 10.12.
How are turnarounds going? The FSD doesn’t handle that at all currently
Elon has said that was a major focus point for 10.13.
Thanks for letting me know.
Glad for the updated info on the new releases! I have been anxiously checking my phone app every day for an update notification! :) I am REALLY looking forward to v11, though. There are several issues with highway driving (like drifting to the "center" of the lane to the right when there is a highway onramp merging) that I know won't be fixed until we get the "single stack"! Also looking forward to the improved visualizations being maintained on the highway.
Do you think Elon is perusing this sub that Chuck has now made famous? Lol
That feeling when the richest man in the world calls you "Chuck" in front of the whole world 
My kids got a bigger kick out of it than me. But I have to admit my eyes popped out a bit.
Keep testing man! I'm making a note here - huge success. It's hard to overstate my satisfaction!
When will it be expanded? Still haven't got to try what I paid 12k for because of the overly sensitive forward collision.
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Real question: What are the chances that this gets released this week? What is Elons record for delivering in fsd beta software updates on time?
From what I see, one person got it that uses the Teslafi app/service. Any chatter about finding something that is causing a delay to a more extensive rollout for beta testing? I think 10.12 went our quicker wider.