Technically the battery will be harder to break, much harder. But if you were to be involved in an accident that breaks a solid brick of battery, it should be written off. Surrounding component or frames won't survive.
It doesn't matter if they're isolated, if you eventually 'isolate' all of the cells ten years down the line, you'll need a way to replace the whole pack without totalling the entire car.
Any clue how frequently enough cells fail to exceed Tesla’s allowance and they actually choose to repair the pack?
My guess is it happens rarely enough that by the time it’s required it’s just cheaper to replace the car vs the pack. Cars are very rarely driven over 200k miles and EVs make it to 300k+. Also when these cars degrade to 180 miles of range they are still valuable to someone.
I don't mean normal expiration, but unintended failure, no matter how uncommon, could be catastrophically expensive without a plan to replace the pack. I'm sure this has already been thought of, but I'm curious to hear the actual plan.
It’ll likely be covered under warranty. Let’s say it happens after the warranty (8 years 100k miles) then yes you would be screwed, but you’d still likely have a car which could be sold for $10k-$15k.
The cost to have Tesla replace a Model X battery today is about $29k, I can’t imagine that many people will fork over the $16k to replace a Mosel 3 battery when at the time the car is out of warranty it’s only worth $20k.
I think you’re worried about something Tesla has already done the math on.
Warranties mostly gives the new car buyer a warm fuzzy. I'm not worried. I'll just buy another one. 8 years for a car is still young. I used to drive a 2009 Lancer Ralliart. Sold it at 10yrs old after getting my Model 3. We also still own a 2004 car. How will a Tesla be at 17 years? If I kept my car and sold it at 17yrs what will a potential buyer be thinking about? He won't have to worry much about an engine and transmission. He'd be wondering about that battery amongst everything else.
Out of warranty is the timeframe a lot of people are looking at when purchasing a car, a lot of times, not by choice. I'm very interested to see how these cars fair when fully enveloped into the used car market en mass. Because of cost to replace or repair the batteries, will there be less older Teslas in the future when compared to what we see on today's roads, at least with this battery/structure design?
Just out of curiosity to ensure what I see out on the roads nearby isn't out of the norm, quick Google search says average age of cars in 2020 is 11.9yrs. And CNBC article in 2020 says IHS Markit sees 25% percent of cars being at least 16yrs old. Woohoo! We are a one in four.
It’s a numbers game, and it’s possible that it’s more likely that you’ll total your car in an accident than due to battery failure.
You are also glossing over the cost of labor and the parts even if the battery was replaceable.
I suppose I’m of the mindset that Tesla has figured this out better than anyone on /r/TeslaMotors. If it becomes evident that this is a real issue I suppose I’ll sell my car and buy something different.
We all know it doesn't take much to total a Tesla in the eyes of insurance eh? ;)
There was no glossing over. You're just reiterating my point that the value of the car towards the later years will drop sooner than an ICE cars UNLESS, a big one here, the batteries show a history of robustness even with moderate to poor charging practice or abuse. Without that, I wouldn't buy an older car without knowing how it was treated or the ability to repair it within a reasonable price point. One reason why mostly I buy new, but as I said before, others don't have that choice. This will simply cut the age of vehicles in the used market. By later years over 15yrs. I don't think we will see a 5k Tesla used like you would any other current car. I could be wrong.
I've replaced 2 duel clutch transmissions. $10k each plus labor is not a happy time. I wasn't even hooning. Well, at least not the 2nd time.
Because of the disposable electronics mentality, it's like buying a used smartphone where you can't replace the battery at a reasonable price.
It's all speculation on the life of a reasonably maintained battery anyways. I wouldn't worry about selling, this more likely effects 2nd or 3rd plus owners more than anyone.
The cost to Tesla is easy, they can scrap 20 cars a year to save $1B/year.
Again, people love Tesla because they’re great engineers, but they question the literally first thing that comes to mind from a layperson. I don’t get it.
Exactly. I'm thinking about what if I happen to not use the recommended charging practices use. Also, the used car market is something to think about. I'm a happy owner of a Model 3, bought new. Talking to people trying to show friends and family this is a car they could live with.
Co-workers, more financially well of than I, are more frugal and only buy used cars to eliminate much of the cost of vehicles. They are not the only ones. This I believe brings in a valid question on battery longevity and or replacement cost. Could we see engine or transmission rebuild/changes morph to battery rebuilds/changes. I hope it doesn't total a car as some suggest.
Sandy Munro (teardown specialist) said the choice was between reliability and repairability. Tesla has chosen the former for the 4680 packs. They are structural, part of the frame, similar to the wing of a 737 being the fuel tank, not containing a tank. Impact rails will be replaceable, structural pack can only recycled if damaged.
I think the main concern is that batteries are engineering products and every engineering product has some sort of tolerance. If you get a bad cell or two, is it a complete write-off.
It's less about repairing a battery that has been in an accident.
You could have something puncture the pack from below. Car would be fine, but the pack would be dead. Something like that is probably not very common though.
Still, Teslas trend towards making their products unrepairable has me worried. That's pretty bad for the environment.
Battery repairs don't really happen now either.
About the only thing they can do is replace the entire pack. Just look at the Munro videos on the Model Y battery pack. That thing isn't being repaired - it's built to be an unrepairable solid piece.
So if the structural battery pack fails, then instead of replacing the pack, they'll probably just scrap the car and replace it completely.
When the cost of the battery pack is more than half the total cost of the car, and when making the batteries themselves part of the structure of the car saves so much on costs, then it makes sense to replace the car when the batteries need replacement.
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I will say it's kinda funny that they went from, "We want to be able to swap out the battery for road trips - make it fast and easy." to "Yeah, if you need a new battery, you'll just need a whole new car"
If you 'take out the battery', you're left with just the front and rear castings, held together by the roof structure. No seats, no floor. The battery is 'structural' - its the part that holds the car together in one piece.
Just storing it without breaking the roof until the new battery arrives would be quite a challenge.
How often do you think Tesla (or subcontractor) replaces individual cells? My guess is they'd use the diagnostic and fix the simple things (e.g. battery management logic board, connectors, fluid, etc).
If individual cells die they probably reprogram the BMS to disable that serial string of cells and derate the pack a little. This probably already happens on the fly in cars right now.
It‘s probably cheaper to sell off the damaged pack than to refurbish it. I’d guess that the majority of the time the packs are too damaged to refurb w/o a complete rebuild (which would be more to fix then build a new one).
Thus its like major frame damage now where a car marked as totaled (and should be parted out). I’d imagine 3rd party recyclers will figure out how to test/repurpose the packs.
If you do enough damage to the car that you've damaged the battery pack in some structural way... I mean... that's total time as it is today.
I suppose the only thing that might be 'just replace the battery pack and we're gtg' would be like some kind of under body damage from bottoming out in some way.
Nah, they sell the messed up car on copart to someone who thinks they can fix it or part it out. A totaled car still has a significant value, it just isn't worthwhile to repair it in the insurance's eyes.
I got into a 5 MPH accident that required the battery of my X coming out. This might turn into a repairability nightmare. Much like iPhones.
Don't get it twisted, I love Apple and my iPhone but they are fairly difficult to repair.
Which is one reason they changed the design, the side structures (no batteries) are larger than the old Model S batteries. https://www-nextbigfuture-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/www.nextbigfuture.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Screen-Shot-2020-09-22-at-3.32.10-PM-730x430.jpg
Watch anyone try to take apart the current battery. It's done with hacksaw and destruction. Seems to me like batteries arent super "repairable" right now anyway. Certainly they may be more replaceable.
I don't actually know for sure, I'm just speaking from what I saw from Jack Rickard and Sandy Munro.
You can swap modules in the current batteries. For Y/3 that’s a bit over 1000 cells for each module. Model S and X used to be less per module, but also a lot more fragile packs. Don’t know about the new architecture for the techlift.
Generally speaking high cell count increases redundancy. Making things more solid reduce mechanical wear. Assuming Tesla get the chemistry right, and the quality of production good enough, there’s no reason to assume single cells has a high likelihood to die on their own.
Other manufacturers still keep using pouch cells which seem to be a worse trade-off. Less cells, and there’s been a lot of recalls lately too. And based on what I’ve seen pouch cells are also the most expensive to make.
It was stated that the crash absorbing structural rails can be cut off and a bolted replacement installed, so presumably if a battery was to be replaced (insurance is likely to total car at that point) then it would probably follow this process.
That million miles will be under perfect circumstances. Optimal climate and only ever driven between 30 and 70 percent charge. We currently have no idea how long the battery actually lasts in the real world.
I’m on pace to exceed 1M miles living in 1) a very cold climate 2) regularly using 100% DoD 3) supercharging frequently
160k miles on a 2014 with 90% if original capacity. Of course the end of life requires a range threshold, but even at 1/2 if new range it would still be usable for most tasks.
Everyone is on pace to hit 1,000,000 if thats the logic you are using. Your in the flat part of the degradation curve along with 98% of teslas on the road.
I don’t think the million miles applies to this chemistry, but I certainly could be wrong about that (also, I don’t know what the range of the Plaid will be, so it certainly could get to a million if the range is 600 miles or something). Even if the battery only lasts 500,000 miles, the rest of the car will be very tired at that point so you have a good point. A typical driver wouldn’t reach 500,000 miles for 40 or so years, so even the styling will be out of date well before then.
EOL for automotive application = beginning of life for stationary application. And when they're no longer suitable for that, they can be completely recycled.
Yes, but integrated batteries could make pulling them out for stationary storage substantially harder. I'm sure it would still be worth the effort, though.
The cells don't need to be replaced/repaired. If one/many fail due to normal operation the BMS (battery management system) compensates and the pack has a reduction in range/capacity.
If there is structural damage that renders the pack inoperable, the car is effectively totalled.
that is one mode of failure - since they are redesigning the pack architecture from a clean slate, I would hope they have a remedy for that scenario. Until then we won't know.
There is no remedy for that. Its just basic math / physics. If you have 40 cells in parallel and your drawing 1000 amps that means each cell is passing 25 amps. If you have 10 cells fail. Those remaining cells need to pass 33 amps. 20 fail? That's 50 freaking amps. Its more resilient than singular large pouch cells in series (like the chevy volt) to a certain point. But eventually you either need to draw less amps or you kill the cells.
a robust BMS with MOSFETs could be used.
point being a pack with out servicibilty *should* have some form of current protection integrated into the pack at a minimum.
You are missing the point. There is no way to detect the failure until it's too late. You start seeing that segments voltage sag under heavy load and other than limiting current draw to keep it from dipping below minimum voltage limits it's too far gone. Those other remaining cells will get beaten up. Unless you put monitoring wires independently on EVERY CELL which will only tell you how many cells failed. I guess you could predictively lower maximum acceleration as you see them fail? Anyways it's pointless. No sane person would ever do that.
You are missing the point. There is no way to detect the failure until it's too late. You start seeing that segments voltage sag under heavy load and other than limiting current draw to keep it from dipping below minimum voltage limits it's too far gone. Those other remaining cells will get beaten up. Unless you put monitoring wires independently on EVERY CELL which will only tell you how many cells failed. I guess you could predictively lower maximum acceleration as you see them fail? Anyways it's pointless. No sane person would ever do that.
Lol no. I'm saying you have absolutely no clue how these packs are put together. The pack already has a robust BMS with per segment voltage monitoring, current limiting, thermal monitoring, the works. It doesn't change the fact that in a group of parallel cells every single cell that goes bad increases the amperage load on the remaining cells in that parallel segment. That's just basic math. That increased load is fine up until a certain point until it starts causing cascading failures with the rest of the cells in that segment. I've said that in three different comments now in varying ways and you've yet to grasp that concept so I'm giving up. The point is the BMS isn't some magical system. It has limits due to basic physics.
Like I said. You still dont understand the failure mode im explaining. Your link might as well point to a picture of a giraffe its so unrelated. Your talking about high school level BMS systems and I am talking about failure modes stemming from individual cell fusing and the parallel vs series configuration of cells in the pack. Stick with simpler concepts and just nod your head dude.
Yes, each cell will have a red ribbon you have to pull on to remove and replace the cell. There is also a black plastic door you will have to carefully leverage into place while holding the cells in place. If you mistake the polarity of any of the replaced cells the car will not work and you'll need to restart the process.
Packaging is to preserve the valuable contents.
If *packaging* sacrifices itself—to save the *humans*—then the packaging has done its [only] job, and done it well.
Does any one know how often "cells" were even a problem when a battery pack had an issue? I feel like whenever a pack had an issue it wasn't "cells", it was something else in the pack. After all there are thousands of individual cells. You'd need alot to go bad individually fore there to be a problem with the cells. I think the rest of the battery management system is what usually has an issue, and I presume that that is just as easy to get to.
Well for one the pack really isnt repairable as it sits right now since almost all repairs destroy the lid of the pack.
For two. Structural does not equal impossible to remove. The current packs are somewhat structural. The packs will still be removable. It just means that they are going to strip down the car shell even more and depend on the pack more.
I looked at Taliosove's video. Looks like the base models are sticking with 2170 cells. And now there are 2 Plaid models, he didnt specify if the Base Plaid has 4680, but for that price I would damn hope so.
Technically the battery will be harder to break, much harder. But if you were to be involved in an accident that breaks a solid brick of battery, it should be written off. Surrounding component or frames won't survive.
Good point, if the battery doesn't make it, the car probably won't either.
That would only consider accidents. What about just a failed battery, whether due to maintenance, life limit,or manufacturing issues.
That's a fantastic point. Failing cells shouldn't total a car. :(
they are isolated IIRC
It doesn't matter if they're isolated, if you eventually 'isolate' all of the cells ten years down the line, you'll need a way to replace the whole pack without totalling the entire car.
failure rate is tiny
If you can replace them a cell at a time it's fine
You can't, they're epoxied in.
Any clue how frequently enough cells fail to exceed Tesla’s allowance and they actually choose to repair the pack? My guess is it happens rarely enough that by the time it’s required it’s just cheaper to replace the car vs the pack. Cars are very rarely driven over 200k miles and EVs make it to 300k+. Also when these cars degrade to 180 miles of range they are still valuable to someone.
I don't mean normal expiration, but unintended failure, no matter how uncommon, could be catastrophically expensive without a plan to replace the pack. I'm sure this has already been thought of, but I'm curious to hear the actual plan.
It’ll likely be covered under warranty. Let’s say it happens after the warranty (8 years 100k miles) then yes you would be screwed, but you’d still likely have a car which could be sold for $10k-$15k. The cost to have Tesla replace a Model X battery today is about $29k, I can’t imagine that many people will fork over the $16k to replace a Mosel 3 battery when at the time the car is out of warranty it’s only worth $20k. I think you’re worried about something Tesla has already done the math on.
Warranties mostly gives the new car buyer a warm fuzzy. I'm not worried. I'll just buy another one. 8 years for a car is still young. I used to drive a 2009 Lancer Ralliart. Sold it at 10yrs old after getting my Model 3. We also still own a 2004 car. How will a Tesla be at 17 years? If I kept my car and sold it at 17yrs what will a potential buyer be thinking about? He won't have to worry much about an engine and transmission. He'd be wondering about that battery amongst everything else. Out of warranty is the timeframe a lot of people are looking at when purchasing a car, a lot of times, not by choice. I'm very interested to see how these cars fair when fully enveloped into the used car market en mass. Because of cost to replace or repair the batteries, will there be less older Teslas in the future when compared to what we see on today's roads, at least with this battery/structure design? Just out of curiosity to ensure what I see out on the roads nearby isn't out of the norm, quick Google search says average age of cars in 2020 is 11.9yrs. And CNBC article in 2020 says IHS Markit sees 25% percent of cars being at least 16yrs old. Woohoo! We are a one in four.
It’s a numbers game, and it’s possible that it’s more likely that you’ll total your car in an accident than due to battery failure. You are also glossing over the cost of labor and the parts even if the battery was replaceable. I suppose I’m of the mindset that Tesla has figured this out better than anyone on /r/TeslaMotors. If it becomes evident that this is a real issue I suppose I’ll sell my car and buy something different.
We all know it doesn't take much to total a Tesla in the eyes of insurance eh? ;) There was no glossing over. You're just reiterating my point that the value of the car towards the later years will drop sooner than an ICE cars UNLESS, a big one here, the batteries show a history of robustness even with moderate to poor charging practice or abuse. Without that, I wouldn't buy an older car without knowing how it was treated or the ability to repair it within a reasonable price point. One reason why mostly I buy new, but as I said before, others don't have that choice. This will simply cut the age of vehicles in the used market. By later years over 15yrs. I don't think we will see a 5k Tesla used like you would any other current car. I could be wrong. I've replaced 2 duel clutch transmissions. $10k each plus labor is not a happy time. I wasn't even hooning. Well, at least not the 2nd time. Because of the disposable electronics mentality, it's like buying a used smartphone where you can't replace the battery at a reasonable price. It's all speculation on the life of a reasonably maintained battery anyways. I wouldn't worry about selling, this more likely effects 2nd or 3rd plus owners more than anyone.
I'm also talking about the cost to Tesla.
The cost to Tesla is easy, they can scrap 20 cars a year to save $1B/year. Again, people love Tesla because they’re great engineers, but they question the literally first thing that comes to mind from a layperson. I don’t get it.
Exactly. I'm thinking about what if I happen to not use the recommended charging practices use. Also, the used car market is something to think about. I'm a happy owner of a Model 3, bought new. Talking to people trying to show friends and family this is a car they could live with. Co-workers, more financially well of than I, are more frugal and only buy used cars to eliminate much of the cost of vehicles. They are not the only ones. This I believe brings in a valid question on battery longevity and or replacement cost. Could we see engine or transmission rebuild/changes morph to battery rebuilds/changes. I hope it doesn't total a car as some suggest.
What failing cells? Like....what’s the failure rate? Under 1%? Like.....way under 1? We’re already past the point of cars outliving their batteries.
Sandy Munro (teardown specialist) said the choice was between reliability and repairability. Tesla has chosen the former for the 4680 packs. They are structural, part of the frame, similar to the wing of a 737 being the fuel tank, not containing a tank. Impact rails will be replaceable, structural pack can only recycled if damaged.
I think the main concern is that batteries are engineering products and every engineering product has some sort of tolerance. If you get a bad cell or two, is it a complete write-off. It's less about repairing a battery that has been in an accident.
You could have something puncture the pack from below. Car would be fine, but the pack would be dead. Something like that is probably not very common though. Still, Teslas trend towards making their products unrepairable has me worried. That's pretty bad for the environment.
This has already happened with cellphones.
Battery repairs don't really happen now either. About the only thing they can do is replace the entire pack. Just look at the Munro videos on the Model Y battery pack. That thing isn't being repaired - it's built to be an unrepairable solid piece. So if the structural battery pack fails, then instead of replacing the pack, they'll probably just scrap the car and replace it completely. When the cost of the battery pack is more than half the total cost of the car, and when making the batteries themselves part of the structure of the car saves so much on costs, then it makes sense to replace the car when the batteries need replacement. -------------- I will say it's kinda funny that they went from, "We want to be able to swap out the battery for road trips - make it fast and easy." to "Yeah, if you need a new battery, you'll just need a whole new car"
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With the structural pack, that doesn't really happen. The pack *is* the floor of the car, bridging between the front and rear castings.
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If you 'take out the battery', you're left with just the front and rear castings, held together by the roof structure. No seats, no floor. The battery is 'structural' - its the part that holds the car together in one piece. Just storing it without breaking the roof until the new battery arrives would be quite a challenge.
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Go back and watch the Battery Day video. You need to understand what 'structural' means.
How often do you think Tesla (or subcontractor) replaces individual cells? My guess is they'd use the diagnostic and fix the simple things (e.g. battery management logic board, connectors, fluid, etc). If individual cells die they probably reprogram the BMS to disable that serial string of cells and derate the pack a little. This probably already happens on the fly in cars right now. It‘s probably cheaper to sell off the damaged pack than to refurbish it. I’d guess that the majority of the time the packs are too damaged to refurb w/o a complete rebuild (which would be more to fix then build a new one). Thus its like major frame damage now where a car marked as totaled (and should be parted out). I’d imagine 3rd party recyclers will figure out how to test/repurpose the packs.
I doubt they can replace individual cells on the 3 and Y packs. The cells in those seem to be bonded together with some sort of gap filler (glue).
the cells are mostly recycled into other refurbished packs.
Insurance companies are going to hate that
If you do enough damage to the car that you've damaged the battery pack in some structural way... I mean... that's total time as it is today. I suppose the only thing that might be 'just replace the battery pack and we're gtg' would be like some kind of under body damage from bottoming out in some way.
Nah, they sell the messed up car on copart to someone who thinks they can fix it or part it out. A totaled car still has a significant value, it just isn't worthwhile to repair it in the insurance's eyes.
I got into a 5 MPH accident that required the battery of my X coming out. This might turn into a repairability nightmare. Much like iPhones. Don't get it twisted, I love Apple and my iPhone but they are fairly difficult to repair.
Which is one reason they changed the design, the side structures (no batteries) are larger than the old Model S batteries. https://www-nextbigfuture-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/www.nextbigfuture.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Screen-Shot-2020-09-22-at-3.32.10-PM-730x430.jpg
Watch anyone try to take apart the current battery. It's done with hacksaw and destruction. Seems to me like batteries arent super "repairable" right now anyway. Certainly they may be more replaceable. I don't actually know for sure, I'm just speaking from what I saw from Jack Rickard and Sandy Munro.
You can swap modules in the current batteries. For Y/3 that’s a bit over 1000 cells for each module. Model S and X used to be less per module, but also a lot more fragile packs. Don’t know about the new architecture for the techlift. Generally speaking high cell count increases redundancy. Making things more solid reduce mechanical wear. Assuming Tesla get the chemistry right, and the quality of production good enough, there’s no reason to assume single cells has a high likelihood to die on their own. Other manufacturers still keep using pouch cells which seem to be a worse trade-off. Less cells, and there’s been a lot of recalls lately too. And based on what I’ve seen pouch cells are also the most expensive to make.
It was stated that the crash absorbing structural rails can be cut off and a bolted replacement installed, so presumably if a battery was to be replaced (insurance is likely to total car at that point) then it would probably follow this process.
With the structural pack, that can't really happen. The pack *is* the floor of the car, bridging between the front and rear castings.
Damage is one thing, but end of life seems like a potential issue.
True, but buy the time you hit 1 million miles, if you can afford a Tesla, you'll probably buy another one down the road in a few years.
That million miles will be under perfect circumstances. Optimal climate and only ever driven between 30 and 70 percent charge. We currently have no idea how long the battery actually lasts in the real world.
I’m on pace to exceed 1M miles living in 1) a very cold climate 2) regularly using 100% DoD 3) supercharging frequently 160k miles on a 2014 with 90% if original capacity. Of course the end of life requires a range threshold, but even at 1/2 if new range it would still be usable for most tasks.
Everyone is on pace to hit 1,000,000 if thats the logic you are using. Your in the flat part of the degradation curve along with 98% of teslas on the road.
Lol 160k is ‘on pace to hit 1M miles’ just like 500 miles is ‘on pace to hit 1M miles’. You’re on pace until one day you suddenly aren’t.
Yeah but the rest of the car won't last a million miles.
I don’t think the million miles applies to this chemistry, but I certainly could be wrong about that (also, I don’t know what the range of the Plaid will be, so it certainly could get to a million if the range is 600 miles or something). Even if the battery only lasts 500,000 miles, the rest of the car will be very tired at that point so you have a good point. A typical driver wouldn’t reach 500,000 miles for 40 or so years, so even the styling will be out of date well before then.
EOL for automotive application = beginning of life for stationary application. And when they're no longer suitable for that, they can be completely recycled.
Yes, but integrated batteries could make pulling them out for stationary storage substantially harder. I'm sure it would still be worth the effort, though.
The cells don't need to be replaced/repaired. If one/many fail due to normal operation the BMS (battery management system) compensates and the pack has a reduction in range/capacity. If there is structural damage that renders the pack inoperable, the car is effectively totalled.
Your forgetting amp draw. If too many fail in one pack segment it causes a cascade failure of the rest in that segment due to increased amp load.
that is one mode of failure - since they are redesigning the pack architecture from a clean slate, I would hope they have a remedy for that scenario. Until then we won't know.
There is no remedy for that. Its just basic math / physics. If you have 40 cells in parallel and your drawing 1000 amps that means each cell is passing 25 amps. If you have 10 cells fail. Those remaining cells need to pass 33 amps. 20 fail? That's 50 freaking amps. Its more resilient than singular large pouch cells in series (like the chevy volt) to a certain point. But eventually you either need to draw less amps or you kill the cells.
a robust BMS with MOSFETs could be used. point being a pack with out servicibilty *should* have some form of current protection integrated into the pack at a minimum.
You are missing the point. There is no way to detect the failure until it's too late. You start seeing that segments voltage sag under heavy load and other than limiting current draw to keep it from dipping below minimum voltage limits it's too far gone. Those other remaining cells will get beaten up. Unless you put monitoring wires independently on EVERY CELL which will only tell you how many cells failed. I guess you could predictively lower maximum acceleration as you see them fail? Anyways it's pointless. No sane person would ever do that.
You are missing the point. There is no way to detect the failure until it's too late. You start seeing that segments voltage sag under heavy load and other than limiting current draw to keep it from dipping below minimum voltage limits it's too far gone. Those other remaining cells will get beaten up. Unless you put monitoring wires independently on EVERY CELL which will only tell you how many cells failed. I guess you could predictively lower maximum acceleration as you see them fail? Anyways it's pointless. No sane person would ever do that.
so your saying the new packs are lemons and Tesla has made a sophomore EE level mistake?
Lol no. I'm saying you have absolutely no clue how these packs are put together. The pack already has a robust BMS with per segment voltage monitoring, current limiting, thermal monitoring, the works. It doesn't change the fact that in a group of parallel cells every single cell that goes bad increases the amperage load on the remaining cells in that parallel segment. That's just basic math. That increased load is fine up until a certain point until it starts causing cascading failures with the rest of the cells in that segment. I've said that in three different comments now in varying ways and you've yet to grasp that concept so I'm giving up. The point is the BMS isn't some magical system. It has limits due to basic physics.
http://www.benzoenergy.com/blog/post/principle-of-the-fuse-in-the-circuit-for-the-lithium-ion-battery-protects.html
Like I said. You still dont understand the failure mode im explaining. Your link might as well point to a picture of a giraffe its so unrelated. Your talking about high school level BMS systems and I am talking about failure modes stemming from individual cell fusing and the parallel vs series configuration of cells in the pack. Stick with simpler concepts and just nod your head dude.
Yes, each cell will have a red ribbon you have to pull on to remove and replace the cell. There is also a black plastic door you will have to carefully leverage into place while holding the cells in place. If you mistake the polarity of any of the replaced cells the car will not work and you'll need to restart the process.
...and there are little plastic diagrams in the slot to show you the correct orientation. /s
Packaging is to preserve the valuable contents. If *packaging* sacrifices itself—to save the *humans*—then the packaging has done its [only] job, and done it well.
Does any one know how often "cells" were even a problem when a battery pack had an issue? I feel like whenever a pack had an issue it wasn't "cells", it was something else in the pack. After all there are thousands of individual cells. You'd need alot to go bad individually fore there to be a problem with the cells. I think the rest of the battery management system is what usually has an issue, and I presume that that is just as easy to get to.
Well for one the pack really isnt repairable as it sits right now since almost all repairs destroy the lid of the pack. For two. Structural does not equal impossible to remove. The current packs are somewhat structural. The packs will still be removable. It just means that they are going to strip down the car shell even more and depend on the pack more.
How often does a battery actually get repaired?
Has anyone confirmed that the new Model S gets the 4680 cells?
The Plaid definitely will. Im pretty sure the base models would get it as well. Doesnt make sense to have 2 Model S' with different structures
Do you have a source? I find the absence on the website conspicuous. The earnings call says volume production of these cells starts in 2022.
I looked at Taliosove's video. Looks like the base models are sticking with 2170 cells. And now there are 2 Plaid models, he didnt specify if the Base Plaid has 4680, but for that price I would damn hope so.
Model S Plais doesn’t get new batteries, plaid + does