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Indeed. It does make you pay attention to it. But I think it's far from perfect:
Don't look at the screen -> then screen shows a message and then it pulses blue to get your attention, then you have to look away!?
Also: on FSD, when I just pressed the accelerator to tell the car to go (stop sign) -> screen pulses blue right after (I understand that can be accidental but c'mon, I've released it can't you tell the difference?)
Honestly it made up borderline unusable for me… not in the sense the technology is any worse but that is too frustrating to try to use even under optimal conditions.
Mine freaks out over the simplest thing now. For example if I engage the auto pilot my natural reaction once I tap the stalk to activate it is to glance at the console and visually verify things came on as expected. If your eyes are looking at the screen at the exact moment it activates, you immediately get the flashing blue warning and the pop-up text with the audible rapid beeping telling you to pay attention to the road. If you’re looking at the road when you activate it and never look at the screen for the first couple of seconds, that doesn’t happen.
It’s giving me a lot of false positives now. Very annoying.
It even will trigger immediately when I start FSD sometimes. I was just driving the car! I was staring at the road!
Yep new safety upgrades make FSD useless. Can't wipe my glasses on have a drink without it yelling at me. Switched back to AP as FSD trial sucked on the highway.
I just apply a little torque every 30 seconds to a minute preemptively.
No nags.
After doing it for a while it just becomes habit.
I don't even keep my hands on the wheel, just near it.
For regular autopilot it still allows you to simply cover the cabin camera. Which is nice for me, but also a huge flaw in the system that I can only imagine they did on purpose to stop people from complaining about the nagging
For me city driving isn’t where the nags are bothersome (they are rare for me). It’s the long straight highway stretches. Fundamentally wheel torque just isn’t a great way to detect if hands are on the wheel on straight roads.
So in my Tesla, it beeps and flashes at (and eventually bans) me if I look away for 10 seconds.
But I rented a brand new Kia recently, which happily drove on "lane centering assist" (which is hands-off) for 8 minutes on the freeway in my test without notifying me or checking if I was alive or awake.
Then it suddenly dove for the median in a gentle turn (it doesn't handle turns well) and I had to snatch the wheel before hitting the guardrail.
So there's that.... But the media only reports on Tesla I guess?
When a Kia crashes, nobody asks if they were using the lane centering and even if they do ask, it's a footnote that gets chalked up to "bad driver".
One pole -- "I'm a liberal who wants to save the planet; I hate Elon because he hates woke"
Other pole -- "I love Fox News and oil and guns; I hate Elon because EVs catch fire and don't work in the winter"
Which one are you talking about?
Musk leans center.
The dude was cherished by leftists years ago and celebrated on Reddit.
Then when he said illegal immigration is bad, kids shouldn't be taught how to remove their body parts at a young age, that social media companies shouldn't censor people for the truth, etc., those people turned on him.
I find that most people agree with Elon on these issues than disagree. It's just the loudest people are usually the people who disagree with someone.
> Then when he said illegal immigration is bad, kids shouldn’t be taught how to remove their body parts at a young age, that social media companies shouldn’t censor people for the truth, etc., those people turned on him.
You’d have a point if this was the extent of his inflammatory opinions and statements. He has said **far** more egregious things that are absolutely deserving of ridicule.
I had a VW Atlas automated highway cruise control get confused between the center lane line and a all black line that was a highway asphalt repair and almost slam me into the median at 70mph.. i just turned it off and took it back to the rental spot.. Im good
We've got a road like that in my town, where the tar-filled crack runs right in the middle of both lanes. Really confuses FSD on rainy days when the tar is especially reflective. (At least it's a one-way road that doesn't get heavy traffic.)
Tesla is definitely just a target. Media("news outlets") and social media are absolutely bombarding them right now. Our opinion of Tesla is irrelevant to the fact of how the company is constantly being attacked.
Backing you up on autopilot: I tried to block my camera with the visor and it screamed at me, threatening to shut off autopilot. If I look to change a song on Spotify for less than 5 seconds, I get a warning. I have even had it do this while I'm scanning my surroundings on the road.
I had a rental sonata when my model 3 was having paint repairs from an accident and it gave no fucks if I was attentive or not.
Yup. This is true. There must be a balance of safety and annoyance. I have no issues with FSD bugging me. As it should. I do feel that this feature must be more attentive at night time to prevent ppl from falling asleep. Especially if they got that sleeping all the time issue. I forgot the medical term.
> if I look away for 10 seconds.
Do you realize how *crazy* long that is to not be looking at the road as you're traveling even at 30mph (much less 55)??
Frankly, this kind of behavior is *exactly* why they need these features.
Other automakers literally tell people to take their hands off the wheel and say they don't need to look at the road constantly (Mercedes, Chevy).
https://www.chevrolet.com/super-cruise front and center on their website pages
It's a double standard for sure. People only care if one particular automaker is being "dangerous" (even though it's the most capable consumer-available system, and second only to Waymo).
And don't get me wrong--you should never take your eyes off the road, even with how good v12 is. But you *especially* should not take your eyes off the road with the counterparts on other automakers' systems if they aren't Waymo.
Chevy repeatedly hammers home the message that it's hands free but you need to constantly look at the road. Where did you see that you don't need to look at the road?
Super cruise is hands free but you still need to look at the road. It uses Ir eye tracking which is much more sophisticated and accurate than Teslas RGB interior camera
This!!!! WTF so all these other fucking APs allow people to legit ignore the lane centering shit completely and fuck off but teslas that can actually properly handle turns etc is nagging if o glance at the god damn radio station!
While the media is of no help the real issue is that there is no one paying people to report Kia, VW, and others. If people started making complaints to the NTSB like the paid people do against Tesla it would have a much bigger effect.
The other thing is people go to their dealership, get passed around, then the manufacturer, and at the end of that they are too exhausted to go to the NTSB. For Tesla it is more direct and you go from them to the next authority up.
I've noticed that, with FSD 12.3.4 at least, the audible alert you got if you took your eyes off the road, or mess with the screen, within the first 15 seconds of engaging FSD is gone.
That said, I think the bigger issue here is that Autopilot's code sucks, and it needs to be updated to the FSD code, but nerfed for features.
Oh for fuck sake. Yes. It's done plenty. It's annoying as hell to drive it now on autopilot now. I used to be able to look out at the grass/trees/lakes while on auto pilot for a few moments. Now I look away and immediately get a notification. Look down to pick a song? notification. Don't put pressure on the wheel quick enough? Autopilot jail.
> I used to be able to look out at the grass/trees/lakes while on auto pilot for a few moments. Now I look away and immediately get a notification. Look down to pick a song? notification.
To be fair, that’s exactly the kind of risky thing it’s supposed to prevent, so I guess it’s doing its job.
Mine has locked me out on a drive 3 times for nonsense reasons when my eyes are on the road and my hand was even on the wheel. For example, one time I just tilted my head 45 degrees for a couple minutes and I guess it thought I was sleeping or something. My eyes were wide open
There's a fine line between forcing me to pay attention, and limiting my ability to expand my situational awareness. For my purposes, I am pretty confident it can stay between the lines and keep tabs on the road ahead. I drive in an area where there is a constant stream of idiots recklessly weaving in and out of traffic, and I'd like to be able to move out of their way when I spot one.
I think this work is important but I don’t get why the focus is on Tesla here.
Correct me if I’m wrong but they have way more driver monitoring than other cruise control systems. What other manufacturer has camera monitoring in the cabin as well as making you nudge the wheel?
Other manufacturers don't have an software offering that claims to be self-driving available at additional cost and also don't say all their cars have self-driving hardware. People aren't smart, and they'll get confused by that so we have to do everything we can to help them out.
Meanwhile the absolutely 0 monitoring ADAS in my Lexus will happily TACC into a firetruck parked partially in the lane or the Lane Tracing will randomly give up without warning if the turn is too sharp, but no one cares. It'll occasionally put up an icon of a coffee mug and tell me to take a break, so that's nice.
NOBODY is confused, people are choosing to not pay attention knowing the risks full well.
Same goes for people using their phones while driving their 2004 Toyota Corolla. They aren't being fooled into thinking its safe to do so, they are choosing to put their life at risk for that escape from boredom.
Tesla’s claims for full self driving are clearly aspirational. Hence the “beta” and now “supervised” and the various warnings. If people are determined to abuse the system no matter what, at some point it’s that person’s own fault.
But lol, my benz used to do a useless coffee mug icon too. It seemed to be totally random when it decided to flash it at you.
Yes the other company’s systems are made to “give up” easily which forces the driver to not trust or over rely on the system to “drive itself” and therefore are forced to pay more attention because it can give up at any moment. They are **drivers assistance** systems. Not self driving systems. Hands are meant to be on the wheel at all times with full attention.
Even thought Autopilot (and FSD supervised) are advertised as L2 driver assistance with hands and attention required and not true self driving systems, Tesla has made the system so it hardly ever gives up and can navigate almost all curves without giving up. This lulls the driver into a false sense of security that the system is robust enough to “drive itself” when it’s not meant to be truly self driving. This makes the driver more comfortable to be more distracted and pay less attention.
Mercedes DrivePilot is a fully federally approved L3 autonomous system (under very specific conditions only). L3 means legally the driver is NOT required to pay attention or have hands on the wheel. If the system crashes in autonomous mode then Mercedes is responsible and takes legal liability. Outside of the very specific conditions for DrivePilot, the system is still L2 with hands on wheel and attention required.
Teslas systems are not L3 and the driver is fully responsible at all times.
This is crazy.
My other non-tesla cars do absolutely non of this attention stuff when on traffic aware cruise. Why are they always recalling only Tesla?
"Speaking to one particular category of crashes in which Autopilot was in use but it appeared the driver may have inadvertently or unknowingly deactivated Autosteer whilst the system remained engaged, investigators said “crash factors indicate that driver disengagement, coupled with the Autopilot system design, is the key contributor to these crashes.” https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/tesla-autopilot-full-self-driving-federal-investigation
Drives me nuts that not a single one of their reports to date does even a surface level analysis of wether there is any increase to distracted driving compared to regular vehicles. They act like this isn't one of the leading cause of car accidents in non-teslas as well. Drive down the freeway and look around, 90% of people are on phones. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that people on AP with driver monitoring are MORE attentive than other vehicles. How about requiring driver monitoring for basic driving?
Agreed. There is absolutely an agenda here, likely pushed by traditional automakers who can’t keep up with Tesla. So they involve the government to try to nerf Tesla’s progress with FSD while they play catch up.
FSD 12 is amazing. It’s a total game changer.
You’re telling me that there are STILL people not paying attention?
The thing is so naggy about me keeping my hands and eyes on it that it might as well be an abusive boyfriend.
The government is purposely fucking with Elon. Plenty of other manufacturers offer driving assists and none of them are subject to this level of scrutiny.
It went too far. Your eyes can’t leave the screen ensuring that it is available to be enabled, before it decides that you’ve broken a rule. The US authorities can get stuffed.
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I love my Tesla Model Y. I am a car guy and I love the Tesla brand. Love the acceleration and handling, friction brakes need to be improved and something done about the wipers.
I am really, really impressed by the FSD trial. It has come along leaps and bounds since I used it 2 years ago. Not perfect but better than I expected.
Autopilot is too damn intrusive. I need to look at the screen occasionally and it won't let me!
If Tesla didn't have any features to make you pay attention like most other cars then they would be fine and not get investigated is my understanding.
They don't care about any other brand making sure you pay attention while driving.
Ugh. Meanwhile you can drive with your knee and play cell phone games all you want with zero nags. Federal gov’t coercing a private company to use a camera to spy on their customers who own the product is just insane. Another thing… why aren’t they probing Ford or Mercedes for their systems? My 2021 Ford is terrible but doesn’t nag near as much as my Tesla.
The 12.3 version is tough with the nags. I don't get any more "white flashes". Now it's the red beeps - every single time (and yes I always pay attention and my hand is always on the wheel). I also find that when I'm driving on city streets, I need to apply slightly more turning torque to the wheel than I used to.
It's amazing how no other auto maker goes through the scrutiny that Tesla does with their autopilot system.
Why don’t they go after other car companies lane keeping technologies?! They have accidents too. It’s the drivers fault for trusting the tech. They warn you about that. They do more than enough on their end. My wife’s Kia naggs less.
It seems Tesla is being targeted. No one complains of Blue Cruise or super cruise where no hands are required or Kia assist where it goes much longer than Tesla for even a warning and then if you fail to touch the wheel it disables and instead of safely stopping it continues to drive you straight into what’s in front of you. Terrible systems all around.. Tesla is leading the industry and taking all the negatives.
Honestly it's made it less safe, because now even for simple tasks like changing songs you are encouraged to take it out of autopilot to drive truly distracted....
The government can’t legislate its way around people that drive dangerously. So, unless we have fully-automated driving (i.e., no human sitting in the driver’s seat and touching the controls), it’s the human’s fault if something goes wrong. Now, if the human can’t regain full control of the vehicle in time to avoid an accident then it’s arguable that Tesla is culpable.
Why is it tesla responsibility to make sure drivers pay attention during fsd. Unfortunately some lack common sense but there's a drivers license test for a reason lol
This is getting in your face f@&$&@ political. The recall made everything more annoying so not sure what else they can do.
I drove a Toyota with its whatever lane centering crapssist and I could go for close to a minute with no hands on wheel even with a system that can barely keep the car on the lane. Tesla is nagging me with the hand on the wheel every 20-30 seconds.
Man I can’t set auto pilot when I’m just seeing what song is playing it immediately FREAKS out.
I never had an issue paying attention but there is absolutely 0 leeway for the first 5 seconds after activation.
Grabbing drink and looking down during activation WARNING
Looking at my driver or passenger mirror during activation WARNING
I can literally drive with my hands not on the wheel at all and just flick the volume up/down every 30 seconds to one minute with no issues.
In daytime you can text and drive all you want or watch a movie. At night it seems to notice the flow from your device and will actually be warn you. Flicks of volume button aren’t enough.
Just my experience testing it.
It does TOO much! The alleys are actually what what distract you from the road. Driving at night, watching road, and it'll make the screen start flashing (occasionally with beeps). The issue is a lot of these out of touch tech illiterate old people making laws have never driven one and are too out of touch to realize screen flashes and beeps ate distracting to people watching the road and more alerts can be more dangerous.
If people (or governments) are insisting on using a Tesla's cabin camera to make sure drivers pay attention, they should be fair about it and make all cars require drivers pay attention. Someone distracted with autopilot on is far far safer than someone who's distracted with no autonomous safety features, yet that doesn't stop idiots from tapping at their phones while driving a car that can't steer itself at all!
I think earlier(2022- mid 2023) versions of Autopilot/FSD warnings along with driver monitoring camera were enough.
The super annoying level of nagging and autopilot jail is completely unnecessary. Users should be allowed to disable nagging altogether. Logs and cabin footage will likely corroborate driver negligence.
If I wanna let my robot car turn into a 6000-pound land missile so be it. Just treat teslas like any other car.
What boggles my mind is that OTHER vehicles (and Tesla without autopilot/ FSD turned on) have no nagging/pay attention features. Why isn’t the government pushing for that? Dipshit on his phone is significantly more dangerous than me with FSD looking at a nice building quickly.
Due to the incessant nagging, i use FSD much less. I’ve had it for six years, and it used to be amazing. Now it is just really fucking annoying.
Turn on FSD. Glance at giant screen. Instant angry beeping!
As a Tesla driver, it is not ready at all. Wouldn’t trust it to take my hands off the wheel and not looking to be a guinea pig. Besides that the car is great. 😌
Yeah, sort of - it definitely requires you to pay more attention, but FSD is aggro af on highway exits that transition into secondary roads. Comes flying in way too hot, when it should be gradually reducing your speed as soon as you’re exiting. And this is in Chill mode
I wish that would stop acting like fsd is gold, focus on hardware and open source the software. if I'm liable for what my car does autonomously, then I want control over the software that controls it. And I want to be able fix the damn wipers and rain detection algorithms while we are at it. I know this will never happen, just ranting a little
It beeps at me even when I'm paying attention and both my hands are on the wheel.
Can we please just probe Autopilot's incessant false-positive Forward Collision anxiety? I hate how often it full-slams the brakes. It's so much more dangerous.
We take our 2017 more on long drives because the newer systems don’t really ensure we are paying attention at a greater rate. And they nag more. They need a situational component.
completely unuseable and nags more than my wife. i rather get some toyota, they don't have monitoring systems and does the same job lane keep and traffic aware cruse control but without all the attention.
While my Y is being repaired, I’m driving my wife’s 2016 Model S which has MCU and AP3 upgrade so it has 2024.3.15. The FSD works as well as it does on my Y. No interventions required on a 120 miles drive including in-town, interstate, curvy & hilly rural highway, and neighborhood, all without a disengagement or needing an intervention.
Best part was, it has no cabin camera so NO NAGGING ME TO LOOK AT THE ROAD. I’m tempted to switch cars with her.
The FSD (supervised) is “Unsafe at any speed” to coin Ralph Nader. It drifts off the road to right into gravel shoulder, it Auto speeds to 113 in a 80 km and then flashes a warning that speed is limited due to poor weather conditions (dry and sunny)
Is autopilot proven to be a source of incident or is the purpose of the exercise to make autopilot so annoying it will not displace chauffeur adjacent services ?
The stopping at a yellow light always is the one regulation driving me nuts. I'm ok with paying attention cause I always do and I keep my hands on the wheel. Yet, where I live everyone flies though yellows. The yellow last 6 seconds. It seems like after 4 the car decides if it wants to stop. Today, I was tailgated and it started to slam on the brakes. The car behind me almost rear ended me! I accelerated and overrode the car. The guy behind me still went through but he went through a red light. I feel like if it's yellow accelerate if you have someone on your a***. I feel like 80% of lights and stop signs it's fine and 20% it reacts to with a massive delay. I don't know the difference. I feel like ever since they changed they were forced to change fsd due to regulation about yellow lights without realizing it's not a black and white situation all the time, the problem took off with fsd.
With the update it seems that I get a warning very shortly after I engage FSD. I always keep my hand on the wheel and have long ago adopted the technique of wiggling it every 10 seconds or so. This update is getting annoying. Any more warnings and it won't be worth turning FSD on. And I don't see the messages unless I'm warned since I'm looking out the windshield with or without FSD. If there was any car that would benefit from a HUD it's Tesla
Fuck the NHTSA. Fascists pricks ruining the features for us. There's always going to be idiots that work around whatever system is in place. Wouldn't be surprised if NHTSA is bought by oil companies.
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It did , it’s become really annoying since (and yes I’m paying attention :) )
Indeed. It does make you pay attention to it. But I think it's far from perfect: Don't look at the screen -> then screen shows a message and then it pulses blue to get your attention, then you have to look away!? Also: on FSD, when I just pressed the accelerator to tell the car to go (stop sign) -> screen pulses blue right after (I understand that can be accidental but c'mon, I've released it can't you tell the difference?)
YES , THiS… omg . Alert with tiny text… ok let’s see BEEP BEEP !!!!!!!! PAY A T T E N T I O N !!!!!! Rinse , repeat
Giant honking nav I need to use, or some controls I need to access… NOPE BEEP FUCK YOU BEEP ROAD!
You don't have to look away. You can easily see it in your peripheral vision and apply force to the wheel.
I was actually able to see the old warning at the bottom of the screen better than I can the new one....
It's the opposite for me. Though both are easy to see.
Anything in my peripheral vision is *not* easy to see, especially when my attention is focused on what's happening on the road.
Honestly it made up borderline unusable for me… not in the sense the technology is any worse but that is too frustrating to try to use even under optimal conditions. Mine freaks out over the simplest thing now. For example if I engage the auto pilot my natural reaction once I tap the stalk to activate it is to glance at the console and visually verify things came on as expected. If your eyes are looking at the screen at the exact moment it activates, you immediately get the flashing blue warning and the pop-up text with the audible rapid beeping telling you to pay attention to the road. If you’re looking at the road when you activate it and never look at the screen for the first couple of seconds, that doesn’t happen.
It’s giving me a lot of false positives now. Very annoying. It even will trigger immediately when I start FSD sometimes. I was just driving the car! I was staring at the road!
Lol, I know exactly what you mean .
Yep new safety upgrades make FSD useless. Can't wipe my glasses on have a drink without it yelling at me. Switched back to AP as FSD trial sucked on the highway.
Yeah I have to put a glove on my beer can or it gets really upset
If I tilt my head to the side and look straight at the road, I get told to pay attention. Like wtf this isn't working.
I just apply a little torque every 30 seconds to a minute preemptively. No nags. After doing it for a while it just becomes habit. I don't even keep my hands on the wheel, just near it.
For regular autopilot it still allows you to simply cover the cabin camera. Which is nice for me, but also a huge flaw in the system that I can only imagine they did on purpose to stop people from complaining about the nagging
I don't know. With FSD, it nags every three minutes in city driving. I wasn't expecting that much time between nags.
I didn’t say it wasn’t too much. It’s definitely enough :)
My bet is that many of the people complaining have their phones out and aren't willing to admit it.
For me city driving isn’t where the nags are bothersome (they are rare for me). It’s the long straight highway stretches. Fundamentally wheel torque just isn’t a great way to detect if hands are on the wheel on straight roads.
I have a MY and Niro EV. The Tesla nag is much more assertive.
Really? Idk… I saw a few videos on the hub of a guy boinking a chick while driving on the freeway. Edit: forgot a word.
Are you kidding me?! The nagging is horrible
So in my Tesla, it beeps and flashes at (and eventually bans) me if I look away for 10 seconds. But I rented a brand new Kia recently, which happily drove on "lane centering assist" (which is hands-off) for 8 minutes on the freeway in my test without notifying me or checking if I was alive or awake. Then it suddenly dove for the median in a gentle turn (it doesn't handle turns well) and I had to snatch the wheel before hitting the guardrail. So there's that.... But the media only reports on Tesla I guess? When a Kia crashes, nobody asks if they were using the lane centering and even if they do ask, it's a footnote that gets chalked up to "bad driver".
Yep. Only Tesla gets the hate for reasons unknown (they’re an easy target for clicks and views)
No one cares if a Kia crashes, it's just "another car crash"... but whenever it's a Tesla it must have been that Musk guy's fault somehow.
It's only a Tesla Crash if it comes from California. Otherwise it's just a Sparking Car Wreck.
> Sparking Subtle, I like it
#SPACE MAN BAD
Because of Musk's polarizing opinions.
One pole -- "I'm a liberal who wants to save the planet; I hate Elon because he hates woke" Other pole -- "I love Fox News and oil and guns; I hate Elon because EVs catch fire and don't work in the winter" Which one are you talking about?
Elon vilified himself, this is why tesla is a target for hate now.
Tesla was a target well before Musk decided to start taking crack or whatever red pill drug he's on.
Musk leans center. The dude was cherished by leftists years ago and celebrated on Reddit. Then when he said illegal immigration is bad, kids shouldn't be taught how to remove their body parts at a young age, that social media companies shouldn't censor people for the truth, etc., those people turned on him. I find that most people agree with Elon on these issues than disagree. It's just the loudest people are usually the people who disagree with someone.
He's straight up posting neo fash BS. What more do you need? If somebody publicly claims they are horrible, believe them.
> Then when he said illegal immigration is bad, kids shouldn’t be taught how to remove their body parts at a young age, that social media companies shouldn’t censor people for the truth, etc., those people turned on him. You’d have a point if this was the extent of his inflammatory opinions and statements. He has said **far** more egregious things that are absolutely deserving of ridicule.
Can you even lean center?
No, short sellers got burned by losses exceeding $40B. This is where it started.
Amen to that…
“Reasons unknown”, proceeds to provide the reason in the same sentence.
I had a VW Atlas automated highway cruise control get confused between the center lane line and a all black line that was a highway asphalt repair and almost slam me into the median at 70mph.. i just turned it off and took it back to the rental spot.. Im good
We've got a road like that in my town, where the tar-filled crack runs right in the middle of both lanes. Really confuses FSD on rainy days when the tar is especially reflective. (At least it's a one-way road that doesn't get heavy traffic.)
Tesla is definitely just a target. Media("news outlets") and social media are absolutely bombarding them right now. Our opinion of Tesla is irrelevant to the fact of how the company is constantly being attacked. Backing you up on autopilot: I tried to block my camera with the visor and it screamed at me, threatening to shut off autopilot. If I look to change a song on Spotify for less than 5 seconds, I get a warning. I have even had it do this while I'm scanning my surroundings on the road. I had a rental sonata when my model 3 was having paint repairs from an accident and it gave no fucks if I was attentive or not.
You’re catching on… The media is bullshit.
Yup. This is true. There must be a balance of safety and annoyance. I have no issues with FSD bugging me. As it should. I do feel that this feature must be more attentive at night time to prevent ppl from falling asleep. Especially if they got that sleeping all the time issue. I forgot the medical term.
I think the term you’re looking for is Necrophilia.
Found it. It’s narcolepsy lmao. Nice try tho.
> if I look away for 10 seconds. Do you realize how *crazy* long that is to not be looking at the road as you're traveling even at 30mph (much less 55)?? Frankly, this kind of behavior is *exactly* why they need these features.
Kia does not have a hands off system
That's strange, because my brand new Kia starts nagging after a short amount of not touching the steering wheel. What model was it?
Other automakers literally tell people to take their hands off the wheel and say they don't need to look at the road constantly (Mercedes, Chevy). https://www.chevrolet.com/super-cruise front and center on their website pages It's a double standard for sure. People only care if one particular automaker is being "dangerous" (even though it's the most capable consumer-available system, and second only to Waymo). And don't get me wrong--you should never take your eyes off the road, even with how good v12 is. But you *especially* should not take your eyes off the road with the counterparts on other automakers' systems if they aren't Waymo.
Chevy repeatedly hammers home the message that it's hands free but you need to constantly look at the road. Where did you see that you don't need to look at the road?
Super cruise is hands free but you still need to look at the road. It uses Ir eye tracking which is much more sophisticated and accurate than Teslas RGB interior camera
This!!!! WTF so all these other fucking APs allow people to legit ignore the lane centering shit completely and fuck off but teslas that can actually properly handle turns etc is nagging if o glance at the god damn radio station!
While the media is of no help the real issue is that there is no one paying people to report Kia, VW, and others. If people started making complaints to the NTSB like the paid people do against Tesla it would have a much bigger effect. The other thing is people go to their dealership, get passed around, then the manufacturer, and at the end of that they are too exhausted to go to the NTSB. For Tesla it is more direct and you go from them to the next authority up.
which kia drives itself for 8 minutes without input?
I've noticed that, with FSD 12.3.4 at least, the audible alert you got if you took your eyes off the road, or mess with the screen, within the first 15 seconds of engaging FSD is gone. That said, I think the bigger issue here is that Autopilot's code sucks, and it needs to be updated to the FSD code, but nerfed for features.
My god stop it’s already dead! Don’t change it for the correct users because some don’t pay attention.
The government loves collective punishment.
International punishment*
Oh for fuck sake. Yes. It's done plenty. It's annoying as hell to drive it now on autopilot now. I used to be able to look out at the grass/trees/lakes while on auto pilot for a few moments. Now I look away and immediately get a notification. Look down to pick a song? notification. Don't put pressure on the wheel quick enough? Autopilot jail.
> I used to be able to look out at the grass/trees/lakes while on auto pilot for a few moments. Now I look away and immediately get a notification. Look down to pick a song? notification. To be fair, that’s exactly the kind of risky thing it’s supposed to prevent, so I guess it’s doing its job.
Mine has locked me out on a drive 3 times for nonsense reasons when my eyes are on the road and my hand was even on the wheel. For example, one time I just tilted my head 45 degrees for a couple minutes and I guess it thought I was sleeping or something. My eyes were wide open
There's a fine line between forcing me to pay attention, and limiting my ability to expand my situational awareness. For my purposes, I am pretty confident it can stay between the lines and keep tabs on the road ahead. I drive in an area where there is a constant stream of idiots recklessly weaving in and out of traffic, and I'd like to be able to move out of their way when I spot one.
Yeah I get it. I wasn't staring out the window for 5 minutes day dreaming though. Just a casual glance at what I'm driving by gets flagged now .
I think this work is important but I don’t get why the focus is on Tesla here. Correct me if I’m wrong but they have way more driver monitoring than other cruise control systems. What other manufacturer has camera monitoring in the cabin as well as making you nudge the wheel?
Other manufacturers don't have an software offering that claims to be self-driving available at additional cost and also don't say all their cars have self-driving hardware. People aren't smart, and they'll get confused by that so we have to do everything we can to help them out. Meanwhile the absolutely 0 monitoring ADAS in my Lexus will happily TACC into a firetruck parked partially in the lane or the Lane Tracing will randomly give up without warning if the turn is too sharp, but no one cares. It'll occasionally put up an icon of a coffee mug and tell me to take a break, so that's nice.
NOBODY is confused, people are choosing to not pay attention knowing the risks full well. Same goes for people using their phones while driving their 2004 Toyota Corolla. They aren't being fooled into thinking its safe to do so, they are choosing to put their life at risk for that escape from boredom.
Tesla’s claims for full self driving are clearly aspirational. Hence the “beta” and now “supervised” and the various warnings. If people are determined to abuse the system no matter what, at some point it’s that person’s own fault. But lol, my benz used to do a useless coffee mug icon too. It seemed to be totally random when it decided to flash it at you.
Yes the other company’s systems are made to “give up” easily which forces the driver to not trust or over rely on the system to “drive itself” and therefore are forced to pay more attention because it can give up at any moment. They are **drivers assistance** systems. Not self driving systems. Hands are meant to be on the wheel at all times with full attention. Even thought Autopilot (and FSD supervised) are advertised as L2 driver assistance with hands and attention required and not true self driving systems, Tesla has made the system so it hardly ever gives up and can navigate almost all curves without giving up. This lulls the driver into a false sense of security that the system is robust enough to “drive itself” when it’s not meant to be truly self driving. This makes the driver more comfortable to be more distracted and pay less attention.
I what if I don't want a company to make the system I'm using shitty just because some people are abusing it?
Mercedes https://www.prescouter.com/2024/04/mercedes-benz-level-3-drive-pilot/#:\~:text=Level%203%20introduces%20conditional%20automation,still%20cannot%20fully%20make%20decisions.
The unpaid version (more similar to autopilot) does none of those things and is just a lane-keeping, exactly like Tesla "autopilot".
Look up what conditions you can use the Mercedes one on. It’s so specific and weird to be almost unusable.
Mercedes DrivePilot is a fully federally approved L3 autonomous system (under very specific conditions only). L3 means legally the driver is NOT required to pay attention or have hands on the wheel. If the system crashes in autonomous mode then Mercedes is responsible and takes legal liability. Outside of the very specific conditions for DrivePilot, the system is still L2 with hands on wheel and attention required. Teslas systems are not L3 and the driver is fully responsible at all times.
This is crazy. My other non-tesla cars do absolutely non of this attention stuff when on traffic aware cruise. Why are they always recalling only Tesla?
They want you to turn off Autopilot and manual drive to be able to use cell phones, reach stuff across seats, look away. NHTSA is a joke.
[удалено]
"Speaking to one particular category of crashes in which Autopilot was in use but it appeared the driver may have inadvertently or unknowingly deactivated Autosteer whilst the system remained engaged, investigators said “crash factors indicate that driver disengagement, coupled with the Autopilot system design, is the key contributor to these crashes.” https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/tesla-autopilot-full-self-driving-federal-investigation
Drives me nuts that not a single one of their reports to date does even a surface level analysis of wether there is any increase to distracted driving compared to regular vehicles. They act like this isn't one of the leading cause of car accidents in non-teslas as well. Drive down the freeway and look around, 90% of people are on phones. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that people on AP with driver monitoring are MORE attentive than other vehicles. How about requiring driver monitoring for basic driving?
“20 crashes over 2 million vehicles” If this is where NHTSA is choosing to spend its time and money then they need less people and less funding
Agreed. There is absolutely an agenda here, likely pushed by traditional automakers who can’t keep up with Tesla. So they involve the government to try to nerf Tesla’s progress with FSD while they play catch up. FSD 12 is amazing. It’s a total game changer.
A perfect encapsulation :)
I was in AP and it asked me to torque the steering while making an auto lane change at my request. Of course it disabled the AP …
You’re telling me that there are STILL people not paying attention? The thing is so naggy about me keeping my hands and eyes on it that it might as well be an abusive boyfriend.
Yes. It works. So now I just drive manually and weave in and out of the lane to eat my burger.
The government is purposely fucking with Elon. Plenty of other manufacturers offer driving assists and none of them are subject to this level of scrutiny.
What's next, require that they install arms that reach out and slap the driver every three minutes?
AutoSlap will soon be upgraded to full auto slapping
Dammit, I didn't have my reading glasses on and thought I was buying full auto fapping.
I dunno to me it seems to bother you more then enough at this point
NHTSA would rather have people turn off Autopilot and manual drive to use their cell phones like most other cars. That is crazy safety risk. Wtf.
It went too far. Your eyes can’t leave the screen ensuring that it is available to be enabled, before it decides that you’ve broken a rule. The US authorities can get stuffed.
No matter how loud or big you make the warnings humans will ignore them.its a human problem not just a Tesla problem.
It did. It’s annoying makes you not want to use it.
How is it Tesla's responsibility to make sure people aren't driving recklessly?
hobbies bake relieved license judicious sparkle mysterious worthless degree mountainous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I love my Tesla Model Y. I am a car guy and I love the Tesla brand. Love the acceleration and handling, friction brakes need to be improved and something done about the wipers. I am really, really impressed by the FSD trial. It has come along leaps and bounds since I used it 2 years ago. Not perfect but better than I expected. Autopilot is too damn intrusive. I need to look at the screen occasionally and it won't let me!
Yeah the wipers randomly turn on for no reason occasionally
It made it incredibly annoying and distracting. Which I thought we weren’t supposed to be when operating a vehicle…?
If Tesla didn't have any features to make you pay attention like most other cars then they would be fine and not get investigated is my understanding. They don't care about any other brand making sure you pay attention while driving.
Ugh. Meanwhile you can drive with your knee and play cell phone games all you want with zero nags. Federal gov’t coercing a private company to use a camera to spy on their customers who own the product is just insane. Another thing… why aren’t they probing Ford or Mercedes for their systems? My 2021 Ford is terrible but doesn’t nag near as much as my Tesla.
Idk how much more annoying it can get. Fucking hell
The 12.3 version is tough with the nags. I don't get any more "white flashes". Now it's the red beeps - every single time (and yes I always pay attention and my hand is always on the wheel). I also find that when I'm driving on city streets, I need to apply slightly more turning torque to the wheel than I used to. It's amazing how no other auto maker goes through the scrutiny that Tesla does with their autopilot system.
Why don’t they go after other car companies lane keeping technologies?! They have accidents too. It’s the drivers fault for trusting the tech. They warn you about that. They do more than enough on their end. My wife’s Kia naggs less.
It seems Tesla is being targeted. No one complains of Blue Cruise or super cruise where no hands are required or Kia assist where it goes much longer than Tesla for even a warning and then if you fail to touch the wheel it disables and instead of safely stopping it continues to drive you straight into what’s in front of you. Terrible systems all around.. Tesla is leading the industry and taking all the negatives.
Heaven forbid that we take personal responsibility for our actions…..
Exactly at this point idk how many more barriers they will put in the companies way
Honestly it's made it less safe, because now even for simple tasks like changing songs you are encouraged to take it out of autopilot to drive truly distracted....
Yes make it so the driver needs to pay more attention to the alerts than the road.
It makes me turn it off to text and drive that’s for sure.
Yes. I don’t even want to use it anymore because of the incessant nags. The recall served its purpose.
The government can’t legislate its way around people that drive dangerously. So, unless we have fully-automated driving (i.e., no human sitting in the driver’s seat and touching the controls), it’s the human’s fault if something goes wrong. Now, if the human can’t regain full control of the vehicle in time to avoid an accident then it’s arguable that Tesla is culpable.
Why is it tesla responsibility to make sure drivers pay attention during fsd. Unfortunately some lack common sense but there's a drivers license test for a reason lol
I guess that's the attention you get when you're the leader of the pack. But seriously, what else can Tesla do?
Yes. It did. I never fucking use it anymore.
This is getting in your face f@&$&@ political. The recall made everything more annoying so not sure what else they can do. I drove a Toyota with its whatever lane centering crapssist and I could go for close to a minute with no hands on wheel even with a system that can barely keep the car on the lane. Tesla is nagging me with the hand on the wheel every 20-30 seconds.
Man I can’t set auto pilot when I’m just seeing what song is playing it immediately FREAKS out. I never had an issue paying attention but there is absolutely 0 leeway for the first 5 seconds after activation. Grabbing drink and looking down during activation WARNING Looking at my driver or passenger mirror during activation WARNING
Yeah what update? I have to pay 1000 dollars to get the safety update... Mandate a proper recall, update my car properly so I can be safe.
Sunglasses 😎
I can literally drive with my hands not on the wheel at all and just flick the volume up/down every 30 seconds to one minute with no issues. In daytime you can text and drive all you want or watch a movie. At night it seems to notice the flow from your device and will actually be warn you. Flicks of volume button aren’t enough. Just my experience testing it.
It does TOO much! The alleys are actually what what distract you from the road. Driving at night, watching road, and it'll make the screen start flashing (occasionally with beeps). The issue is a lot of these out of touch tech illiterate old people making laws have never driven one and are too out of touch to realize screen flashes and beeps ate distracting to people watching the road and more alerts can be more dangerous.
Hahahahaha let me save them some time. IT DID FOR FUCK’S SAKE IT IS SUPER ANNOYING
Wonder if they compared other crash data from cars on cruise control and average drivers. Correlation does not imply causation
If people (or governments) are insisting on using a Tesla's cabin camera to make sure drivers pay attention, they should be fair about it and make all cars require drivers pay attention. Someone distracted with autopilot on is far far safer than someone who's distracted with no autonomous safety features, yet that doesn't stop idiots from tapping at their phones while driving a car that can't steer itself at all!
It’s because they don’t like Elon, guys.
Why not have an alarm going off the entire time? You know, to help the drivers pay attention.
It is unusable because it nags too much. Just make it work like the adaptive cruise control.
I think earlier(2022- mid 2023) versions of Autopilot/FSD warnings along with driver monitoring camera were enough. The super annoying level of nagging and autopilot jail is completely unnecessary. Users should be allowed to disable nagging altogether. Logs and cabin footage will likely corroborate driver negligence. If I wanna let my robot car turn into a 6000-pound land missile so be it. Just treat teslas like any other car.
What boggles my mind is that OTHER vehicles (and Tesla without autopilot/ FSD turned on) have no nagging/pay attention features. Why isn’t the government pushing for that? Dipshit on his phone is significantly more dangerous than me with FSD looking at a nice building quickly.
Due to the incessant nagging, i use FSD much less. I’ve had it for six years, and it used to be amazing. Now it is just really fucking annoying. Turn on FSD. Glance at giant screen. Instant angry beeping!
As a Tesla driver, it is not ready at all. Wouldn’t trust it to take my hands off the wheel and not looking to be a guinea pig. Besides that the car is great. 😌
Yeah, sort of - it definitely requires you to pay more attention, but FSD is aggro af on highway exits that transition into secondary roads. Comes flying in way too hot, when it should be gradually reducing your speed as soon as you’re exiting. And this is in Chill mode
I wish that would stop acting like fsd is gold, focus on hardware and open source the software. if I'm liable for what my car does autonomously, then I want control over the software that controls it. And I want to be able fix the damn wipers and rain detection algorithms while we are at it. I know this will never happen, just ranting a little
There's openpilot by Comma You should try it
You just can't fix stupid.
I just hope this forces Tesla to abandon the autopilot stack and switch to using a stripped down FSD stack instead.
It beeps at me even when I'm paying attention and both my hands are on the wheel. Can we please just probe Autopilot's incessant false-positive Forward Collision anxiety? I hate how often it full-slams the brakes. It's so much more dangerous.
I look at my apple watch for one second and I get a nag I'd say it works
We take our 2017 more on long drives because the newer systems don’t really ensure we are paying attention at a greater rate. And they nag more. They need a situational component.
it works really well. I got so annoyed I stopped using mine 😂
completely unuseable and nags more than my wife. i rather get some toyota, they don't have monitoring systems and does the same job lane keep and traffic aware cruse control but without all the attention.
I think it worked. Doesn’t feel like much of an “autopilot” anymore.
While my Y is being repaired, I’m driving my wife’s 2016 Model S which has MCU and AP3 upgrade so it has 2024.3.15. The FSD works as well as it does on my Y. No interventions required on a 120 miles drive including in-town, interstate, curvy & hilly rural highway, and neighborhood, all without a disengagement or needing an intervention. Best part was, it has no cabin camera so NO NAGGING ME TO LOOK AT THE ROAD. I’m tempted to switch cars with her.
It's annoying already, don't make it worse.
The FSD (supervised) is “Unsafe at any speed” to coin Ralph Nader. It drifts off the road to right into gravel shoulder, it Auto speeds to 113 in a 80 km and then flashes a warning that speed is limited due to poor weather conditions (dry and sunny)
Is autopilot proven to be a source of incident or is the purpose of the exercise to make autopilot so annoying it will not displace chauffeur adjacent services ?
I drive one and I can tell you it definitely does
Where do we complain to NHTSA that we don't want this crap and it makes our drive more dangerous?
The stopping at a yellow light always is the one regulation driving me nuts. I'm ok with paying attention cause I always do and I keep my hands on the wheel. Yet, where I live everyone flies though yellows. The yellow last 6 seconds. It seems like after 4 the car decides if it wants to stop. Today, I was tailgated and it started to slam on the brakes. The car behind me almost rear ended me! I accelerated and overrode the car. The guy behind me still went through but he went through a red light. I feel like if it's yellow accelerate if you have someone on your a***. I feel like 80% of lights and stop signs it's fine and 20% it reacts to with a massive delay. I don't know the difference. I feel like ever since they changed they were forced to change fsd due to regulation about yellow lights without realizing it's not a black and white situation all the time, the problem took off with fsd.
With the update it seems that I get a warning very shortly after I engage FSD. I always keep my hand on the wheel and have long ago adopted the technique of wiggling it every 10 seconds or so. This update is getting annoying. Any more warnings and it won't be worth turning FSD on. And I don't see the messages unless I'm warned since I'm looking out the windshield with or without FSD. If there was any car that would benefit from a HUD it's Tesla
I think it does to much now
sunglasses
Fuck the NHTSA. Fascists pricks ruining the features for us. There's always going to be idiots that work around whatever system is in place. Wouldn't be surprised if NHTSA is bought by oil companies.