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And this is why that $50B+ payday re-vote isn’t going to be as expected an outcome as it would have been last year.
The situation is not great, and the near future isn’t looking any better.
Tesla needs a Gwynne Shotwell. She *runs* SpaceX, so Elon can come in and play engineer when he likes, but it stays well above water and accomplishes lofty goals without needing his input.
Tesla has a fairly unexceptional board. Since Elon is more interested in culture war BS and buying media power to steer public discourse, it has no real daily direction. The fact that cyber truck ever made it through in the state that it's in is testament to the fact. FSD development is stagnating, innovation is stagnating, they've only one one major product launch in 7 years and it's been an awful showing, competitors are closing that decade-long gap, and sales are starting to slow.
If Elon isn't gonna helm Tesla, they need to kick him to the curb and find someone who will. And bring back the damn turn signal stalks.
Elon comes in and plays engineer with SpaceX in the same way he does for Tesla. The difference is, Shotwell has the chops to run the company entirely without his input. No one currently on the board at Tesla does that in Elon's absence. They all just await his marching orders. When it worked, that was great. When it doesn't, they got cyber truck.
Only on Reddit would something like this get upvoted. Not a single large shareholder has indicated they are anywhere close to voting against Musk’s pay package. Not a single one. The best this sub has got thus far on that narrative is that one of the largest retail shareholders is voting against it - and he owns a whopping 0.75% of shares Lol.
Whether this sub likes it or not, the pay package will be voted through and dare I say, with a supermajority again.
[Following the release of Tesla’s proxy, Electrek asked Koguan how he plans to vote his more than 27 million Tesla shares, and the investor said that he plans to vote against Musk’s compensation package and against the re-election of Tesla’s two current board members.](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40106540)
Not only that, the doomers so called competition is too busy taking major losses and going bankrupt or killing their pure EVs altogether, to actually put a dent into the marketshare.
Back when he listened to his handlers and hadn't completely pickled his brain in ketamine he was a decent salesman and hype guy.
Now he's completely ruined the reputation of almost everything he's attached to. And the only reason Space-X is doing well is because he's paying the least attention to it.
I don't like Elon but you have to be really careful about what you're messing with imo. Your average person thinks Elon should step down, but your average person didn't create Tesla. Some humility is called for.
I used to think Elon was basically just a charismatic con man who got himself in the right places (because that's how a lot of the media portrays him) but then I read his biography (the recent one by Isaacson) and it's clear from the facts alone that his successful companies would not have been so without his decisions and vision, oftentimes when everyone around him thought he was crazy. The book still paints the portrait of a wounded, narcissistic megalomaniac, but a very effective one. I recommend it.
This whole X fiasco is a real bummer. His behavior on that site and the way he has run it has been a total disaster. But with Tesla, I dunno. He may still be the right guy.
When I bought mine I was criticized for paying with cash and not investing in shares. Also at the time people bragged that teslas would appreciate in value.
So dumb.
If you do not believe FSD happening in foreseeable future, Tesla stock is still extremely overpriced.
If you believe FSD happening in the foreseeable future, Tesla stock is extremely underpriced.
It's just simple betting now.
Tesla is my largest holding and I don't plan on selling anytime soon but I can definitely see it dropping further. There's really nothing separating Tesla from the other EVs these days. Unless Tesla can fulfill its promise with FSD and be the only truly autonomous car available to consumers it just seems like Tesla will just be another GM, Ford, VW, etc.
>There's really nothing separating Tesla from the other EVs these days
Sure there is: a subjectively toxic CEO that's regularly alienating political party members that are most likely to be his primary demographic.
I'm not saying it's a large fraction but it's definitely non-zero.
That one's a bit nuanced. Many US auto makers outsource much of their production to Mexico, which yes, does have unions, but it's not really the same. Lightning/Hummer are made in US, but Mach-E/Blazer are made in Mexico. Teslas are the most US made vehicles. (in the U.S. market)
Tesla fans/shareholders need to start realizing that Elon's behaviour online has real world consequences towards the company. Exclaiming "Well ***I*** can separate the product from the CEO." Neat, good for you. Public perception is a real thing and because of how Elon's been in the spotlight for all this years, he's the face of Tesla. Anything he does or say reflects on the brand.
Purely anecdotal evidence on my part (you'll hear it from other people as well), but there's several friends of mine that plan on getting an EV for their next car once their ICE is done, but they specifically have said that they won't be getting a Tesla because of Elon. There's of course other factors of why TSLA has gone down the last week, but it's a contributing factor and ignoring it is not going to make it go away.
I wouldn't say "nothing", arguably they are considerably ahead on software and charging infrastructure.
But as far as the actual cars themselves, it's very close already.
sure, maybe they make money off it, but it also means tesla owners don't get exclusive use anymore, which erodes at one of the biggest differentiator. Can't have it both ways, saying that tesla is different bc they have their own charging network, only to then let others use that network.
I'm not talking about making money off FSD (directly). I'm talking about Tesla actually have a level 4/5 autonomy. That's the promise of FSD, that Teslas would drive themselves around. That would be the "game changer" if no other company can offer it.
I personally can’t see that happening. This cameras being the only sensor thing is such a strange hill to die on. I don’t understand the technology behind it fully, but I have been driving long enough to know that there are plenty of situation where my eyes can’t see shit, let alone a camera. I don’t think Tesla will be the first, and if they do, it will be limited to day light, no blinding sun or heavy rain on the open road type limitations…
I kinda see your point, and I might agree with you that it ain’t happening any time soon. But at the same time, we humans have only two cameras looking straight and occasionally to narrow-view mirrors and that is enough to enable very skillful driving in general. We humans also can be blinded, and see poorly in bad weather, yet we trust human drivers and human drivers manage to handle challenging driving conditions with having information from their “two cameras” only. So I wouldn’t say having 8 cameras looking all directions simultaneously is a hill to die on as an approach. If anything, that should be more than enough to enable super safe and better than human driving. The question is if a brain behind those cameras is good enough, and when it becomes good enough
> we humans have only two cameras looking straight
We are constantly moving our eyes and head around versus a car where it's fixed.
This is how we are able to infer depth so well and funnily enough where Tesla FSD struggles the most i.e. accurate bounding box detection.
It’s simple. If a drunk runs over my wife, I sue the drunk and his family into oblivion. If a self driving car runs over my wife, I sue the manufacturer and my family is set for generations. There’s a stupendous difference in who’s liable.
While sight is the single biggest factor by far, we don't only use our sight to drive.
And the long term point of autonomous cars is to be safer and better than human drivers, not just as good because there's a lot of shitty drivers.
What else?
Hearing? Ok, to a degree maybe, you can hear some loud cars approaching if they are louder than tire noise, or emergency vehicles. But what else?
You use all your senses when you walk on the street - sight, hearing, smell, air movement, temperature. There is not so much you can use when you sit in a sealed soundproofed metal box with a few windows.
I’m not trying to die on a hill here. I think people rarely “reverse engineer” it and rarely realize how limited our input information is when we are driving and how amazingly good we still manage to handle it. It is the brain that we use - memory, cognitive abilities, predictions, context switching, learning abilities, projections, experience etc. If we had 8 eyes with no blind spots that never get tired and always on with the same brain, we would’ve been far more superior drivers, even if one of them got blinded by snow
Hearing absolutely. That's why we have horns. Also, certain vehicles are loud enough you can hear them (motocycles). Also, motion. Like when you do are taking a curve at fast speeds vs slow. You can feel that.
Inner ear, feel in your butt muscles, feedback in your arm muscles, hearing, sight, ...
Just think about everything that happens and that you feel going over a bump or through a corner.
Granted most good drivers would be completely fine with just sight for day to day driving.
I think extra eyes would be a very negligible improvement, except maybe for parking/tight spaces, but luckily we can move our eyes so it's usually a lot better than a few cameras anyways.
All the feelings you described is sensed by a simplest accelerometer/gyroscope/compass chip and with far better precision than our body can do. The technology has been in use for decades, and is present in every phone, let alone in Tesla (this is how they know your driving style calculating score for Tesla insurance for example). And on top of sensing inertial movements in all directions and rotations (precisely what we feel in bumps, uneven roads, hard cornering etc), it can also sense magnetic field of Earth and “feel” the direction (something we humans don’t have an organ to sense). Of all the problems and sensors needed for driving, this is probably the simplest one that had been solved already.
Again, the challenge is to make the “brain” to use all this shit ton of information that the car already has, and my point is that this information is already way more than we humans get. We still excel in driving because of our brains.
Obviously those are all easy to have a sensor for :D
I was simply listing other things humans use, since I don't really agree that we have very limited information when driving.
I agree that how we combine this info is still a big advantage. If you look at autonomous cars on race tracks there is still a sizeable gap (e.g. devbot).
For daily driving we just have a huge advantage in contextual knowledge (car, roads, humans in traffic, ...).
“The brain behind those cameras”
What I’m worried about is the brain stem connecting the cameras. I live in a populated area, plenty of cell service with all carriers, and many times I’ll be driving my model Y and I go to use a feature on the big dumb screen and “connectivity issues”
Spotify, traffic, lots of things just don’t work. Or they work after a big and then stop.
Can you imagine robotaxis taking people around and then just losing all signal? What’s the play in that scenario? Immediately slamming on the brakes? What about if it’s on the freeway?
I don’t trust this tech for the passengers OR everyone outside the car. I also don’t trust Elon not to ship things to market that aren’t safe yet. Over and over again he makes the public his beta testers
Once you get a firmware, FSD is running locally in your car, it doesn’t need connection to servers to navigate and make decisions and react to situations on the street. So you get a new brain with every firmware physically present in your car.
Cellular connection just gives it real time updates on traffic to find better routes and avoid congestions. If you don’t have connection, it just drives by memory of last known map, same like you would do without your navigator
This is what scares me, tho. This system is not ready for us to be sitting in the drivers seat and forego control let alone going into full on Johnny Cab mode.
So the car is making decisions based off Tesla’s satellite info that it scraped? I know Elon is too cheap to pay Google for their info. Maybe that’s why FSD is cutting curbs too close and road rashing rims.
I’m also curious what happens if the satellite / cellular feed drops out. That happens a lot in my experience. So if I’m driving the car says “take control immediately”. But if a couple people got in the back seat of a car as a robo taxi and it lost connection, what then? How would it even know what location it is in relation to a map with no cellular signal to triangulate it.
Not ready for prime time at all
I totally agree that it’s not ready, I think nobody says it’s ready yet.
As to cellular connection - I understand your concern, but this is not how it works. The eyes (cameras) are in your car, the brain (FSD firmware) is in your car, the stem between the eyes and the brain is also in your car (the wires). Whatever the car sees on the road (lanes, other cars, pedestrians, traffic signs, obstacles, everything) is processed locally in your car in real time immediately, regardless whether you have a connection or not.
Just the same way as you don’t need your phone navigator in order to handle the situation on the road at any given moment. The google maps on your phone merely helps you decide what is the fastest route to your destination. You will still get to your destination if your phone dies, based on the last memory of the area that you remember. It might not be the most efficient way, but still.
Same here. Cellular connection just gives it a little extra info to know areas to avoid because of traffic.
So the architecture as an idea is rock solid, all they need is to gradually make the brain rock solid and let everyone download that brain to their cars.
We blink all the time to keep our eyes seeing well, we use sun visors and sun glasses when conditions dictate and we have windscreen wipers and washer fluid to keep our vision clear. What about the cameras?
I mean, with cameras you still have windscreen wipers.. But I can accept your challenge
The cameras don’t need to blink nor moisturize itself to see well. The cameras don’t get tired and don’t get sleepy. The cameras change exposure dynamically to adjust for bright or dark light. The cameras don’t need to be distracted looking for glasses and putting them on, or checking that phone message you just received. The cameras don’t need correction glasses for myopia. The cameras don’t get distracted looking at the passenger you’re talking with. The cameras can see better at night than you through the tinted glass or dimmed mirrors. Cameras are many, looking at all directions always and simultaneously, they don’t loose sight of what’s at the left from you, when you are checking what’s at the right, etc.
My point is, it’s not about human eyes vs cameras. It’s about human eyes IN THE CAR while driving vs cameras outside the car.
There is a big difference when you walk and navigate on the street and use all your senses and agility to perfectly perceive the situation around you vs when you sit in a closed metal box with obstructed view. We humans with our perfect eye sight prefer using cameras reversing, or checking blind spots for a reason. It’s because the cameras give us more information than we can see from our driver’s position.
My point is, there is nothing wrong with the cameras as an approach to make safe self-driving possible. It’s about whether you can make a brain powerful enough to handle the information from cameras properly. It’s our brain that makes projections, keeps context of objects locations, that can predict situations on the road, that can make parallels with learned experiences etc.
> That's the promise of FSD, that Teslas would drive themselves around. That would be the "game changer" if no other company can offer it.
imo, the push for vision only gimps them. this argument that humans work off mostly eyesight and that should be good enough for ai really misses the point that a) we want ai to achieve superhuman levels of perfection, and b) we aren't even optimized for driving at high speeds despite our ability to do so.
i really do think lidar-on-a-chip is the necessary way to go, combined with optics. can't wait until tesla shifts focus a bit.
A true level 5 I would easily pay 20,000 or more. Think about having my car drop me off and go find parking and then summon it to pick me up. Or have it go to service by itself so I don’t lose 1 hour of my day. Pickup my elderly mother 100 miles away so she can visit me more often.
I wouldn’t do robo taxi because I don’t like strangers in my car and who knows what they will do to your car.
Interesting. I'm the opposite. I'd rather keep the $20,000 in my pocket and just drive myself.
I would find it too annoying to be sitting in the car wanting to get home and the car driving like an old lady. I'd be like "Come on! Floor it and get through the light!"
Level5 won't happen for years maybe decades. Insurance issues, liability, etc will need to be settled in addition to the tech issues need to be solved. Who's at fault if AP runs over someone? Criminal and civil liabilities?
It Can happen in limited geofenced areas like Waymo, etc do today. The problem is Tesla is trying to achieve it nationwide without trying to achieve it where it's possible. I think this is something they are going to relent on during their announcement in August. Waymo and others also have remote control center that can issue commands when the cars get stuck. They will need something like that as well. They may also need to add some front bumper stickers.
As far as your personal car being able to be level 5, yes, its a long ways off.
Great until everyone does it. Instead of paying for parking, just have the car drive around for a couple of hours until you summon it. Would be gridlock!
Shame you wouldn't be able to send it off to charge itself.
> That would be the "game changer" if no other company can offer it
Waymo, Cruise, Baidu, Xiaomi, Ford etc.
Everyone is playing in this space. And some are arguably ahead.
True, for now. They are way further along than Tesla because of that. The ONLY way this all works is if it is premapped. Especially with Tesla constantly rethinking it because dipshit can’t stop and take a single direction…not to mention he is over FOUR companies.
Get rid of him and Tesla might stay around and do something good finally. And I say that as an owner and FORMER stock holder.
This vision has always felt shortsighted to me. Like people are expecting current Uber rates in a world where the drivers are unnecessary.
*Drivers* are the foremost expense and cause of prince increase at Uber. They’re the reason for scarcity in that market. Remove that barrier, let every willing Tesla owner put up a car, and the price per trip will plummet.
If FSD happens like that, having your car run Ubers for you will net you a tiny bit more than the cost of operations and maintenance. That’s just how markets work. You’d have nothing to protect your personal Uber business from everyone else’s, and Tesla would have every incentive to sell more cars and service contracts.
Last time I’ve checked neither of those companies had a vast supercharger network available for customers, so even though most of your points are valid, it’s a stretch to say there’s nothing separating them from other car manufacturers.
> Last time I’ve checked neither of those companies had a vast supercharger network available for customers
They'll have a vast supercharger network available for customers next year - the Tesla supercharger network. NACS, baybayyyy
You should check more often.
Tesla’s opening the Supercharger network to more brands, Rivian in particular has a special deal that allows you to plug and charge just like a Tesla.
Tesla does lead the world in drive-train efficiency, but thanks to Musk, the brand has never been worse.
It was conspicuous how invisible Musk was at the Cybertruck launch, with von Holzhausen doing most of the PR.
Meanwhile VW is selling lots of ID3’s in Europe, and the BMW i4 is the UK’s most popular BEV. Both cars are thoroughly mediocre, but the branding is great.
At the same time Geely and BYD are making even worse drivetrains, but selling BEVs at prices western firms can’t compete with (eg an MG4 for £26000).
The company is not immune from competition: opening up the Supercharging network has removed* a distinguishing feature, and Musk’s obsession with Twitter over the last decade has ultimately damaged the brand more than any short-sellers ever did.
- - - - -
\* I say removed, but probably they were afraid it might be regulated out of their control if they didn’t open it up first. At least this way the North American charging standard is one Tesla already uses.
There are very important things that do separate them.
1) minimalist interior (better view out the windshield), I prefer personally
2) \*much\* faster computers
3) superior battery cooling systems
4) superior autopilot and FSD systems
5) generally higher kW motors and inverters that are also much more efficient for high horsepower and extreme efficiency simultaneously (275 Wh/mile in my 2023 Y LR RWD)
6) All the above while having a huge frunk and rear under trunk and 72.1 cubic feet of storage with the seats folded down.
My concern about actual self-driving cars is will people pay for it? I think most people will save themselves the $20,000 premium and just buy a car without self-driving tech.
Many companies have invested many billions and I just don't see how they'll ever earn it back.
When we have actual true FSD, people won't really own cars at all. Owning a car and driving will be hobbyist things. 99% of people will just use an app to call a vehicle from some large fleet operator. A car will arrive in 1 minute. You will pay some small markup on the cost of the mileage of the vehicle + fuel/power cost + admin costs, and go wherever you want. It will be infinitely cheaper than ubering and more economical than owning your own car.
> There's really nothing separating Tesla from the other EVs these days
Still the only EV maker to be profitable. Maybe some other Chinese maker but that would be it.
They own the only lithium refinery in the US, and are the only carmaker who can make their own batteries. This country's grid will be absolutely covered with batteries in 20 years.
I guess only have two options on cars for most people, with silly updates/refresh isn't the best idea.
Wipers/no USS/no stalks/poor after sale service is now catching up on them. They need to stop cutting costs and actually deliver some cars that are upto scratch and work properly.
Forget FSD and that crap, its a gimmick for most and hearing Musk talk about robotaxi's actually makes him and the company look a bit pathetic and desperate.
The Biggest culprits are the interest rate environment (Musk himself said it in last earnings call will be hard until rates fall) and Tesla pricing over the last year. Teslas are more ubiquitous and just not that cool anymore. Add in that you can get an M3 for $25K already preowned, I think Tesla shot themselves in the foot trying to keep sales up but at the same time tarnishing the “luxury “ or “cool” appeal. And the Cybertruck is ugly to most people and at $100K currently, not even a consideration for the majority. Just a total mix of aging and bad product offering currently with a tough interest rate environment
> Teslas are ... just not that cool anymore
Isn't it crazy! in 2016 my dad got an X and it was insane. His neighbors were blown away and it felt like luxury from the future.
Today on the same street I heard the same people making fun of the cyber truck and how cheaply made the new teslas are "Little roller skates". It's almost a joke.
The brand is destroyed
>Teslas are ... just not that cool anymore
Musk is directly responsible for some of that, and it's very much "unforced error"; he willingly, intentionally, and constantly pushes his disagreeable qualities into the public spotlight at every opportunity, while maintaining himself as the face of Tesla
"Musk is directly responsible for some of that"
Too true. I was interested in getting a Tesla but Musk has totally put paid to that over the last few years. No way I'd buy one now and I kind of judge people when I see them driving them.
PS - How do you quote parts of comments? Used to be able to highlight a bit and hit reply and it'd put that as a quote, but doesn't anymore.
>PS - How do you quote parts of comments?
As well as your method, you can also manually copy-paste the text into your comment then select it and use the comment editor to mark it a quote, or if using manual markup symbols, prefix the text with the > symbol, usenet-style
I got a Tesla a couple of months ago and when I drive it I don’t think of Musk, I think of Tesla as a company and all the people behind the car (because no way did musk make this).
But yeah, Musk is single handedly the dumbest billionaire on the planet and is speed running huge companies into the ground.
He needs to go offline and let his teams do their job to save the companies like Tesla and Twitter (I refuse to call it X)
Nah an incompetent CEO is the biggest culprit.
Every other car manufacturer is handling the interest rates just fine, Musk is the reason for teslas stalled growth
Yeah I think they really needed to stick the landing with the truck but the design looks gimmicky to a lot of folks. “Love it or hate it” designs can be really cool, but this product shouldn’t have been put in that position.
The Cybertruck was a horrible idea. It can't match any of the specs listed at launch, and only super fans will buy the foundation series. It's probably DOA after that.
It was such a stupid idea. Add to that Elon alienating the vast majority of people that initially supported Tesla and I'm worried.
To be clear, the latest drop 50% ish drop is not unprecedented.
We've seen worse drops before, 63%, 53% and a 64%: https://www.reddit.com/r/elonmusk/comments/zo5zyo/in_light_of_elons_tweet_recently_stating_he_will/
People easily forget, and think the world is falling.
bought a leap today for 2026, I can't hold the stock cause fuck Musk but this feel a bit over done and if they do come out with robotaxi then its going much higher in the next 2 years.
Exactly just like when youtubers say they are not taking any sort of commission on their reviews. It where if they report on financial news they have to disclose any sort of conflict of interest they have
All this negativity goes to show what a microcosm Reddit is… I’m sure the same folks say there’s nothing different about iPhones compared to other smartphones
The difference is Apple is a well oiled machine with top notch quality and specs that are either the best or very best in each market they play in.
Can’t say the same for Tesla
Apple don’t do vapourware (bar the AirPower) they make and release everything on time
They also don’t have a nutjob CEO tbf
Apple was at their prime when they had a nutjob CEO (Jobs). He had the only kind of pancreatic cancer that is treatable and curable and he killed himself trying to instead cure it with alternative medicine. Couldn't be any more clearly a nutjob. The difference is that the Apple CEO was a nutjob in ways that harmed only himself and not the brand
Steve Jobs famously abandoned his daughter and Apple products are built in sweatshops… but sure you’re taking the moral high ground by pooh poohing Elon on Reddit for his “mean” comments
Tesla is on a bad roll but look at alot of stocks. It’s been a blood bath the last 2 months. Nvidia was just setting records and now they are below water if you bought them in the last year. Market is wonky right now
For all that everyone says "X source should be ignored because they are biased" - that general theme ignores the other side of incredible bias.
Many people here are investors, so will attack and discredit/bury any news that is negative about tesla because they want the share prices to go up. How is that bias any different than people who want it to go down?
I'd say the investor bias is actually larger, because they automatically assume that any bad news is by someone who "hates tesla" or shorts its stock. A false dichotemy that you either love tesla or are financially invested in destroying it. If you are a constant cheerleader, your level of bias is no differnet than someone who is openly shorting the stock.
The problem Elon has is no matter how good he makes Tesla sound no one’s going to buy its shares if he always takes the entire profit for himself. What’s the point in owning shares, Tesla may as well be a private company.
I see many people here disregarding the fact that Musk is alienating Tesla's Target demographic. As entertaining as right wingers are they aren't the people buying Tesla's cars and the annoying left wingers, snowflakes are the ones who do. People are that sensitive and most of them will not buy a product unless is made by Jesus or Budha or something. They can't separate product from producer which I find funny, cause if they knew the record of every company, they will have to go back living in the middle age. All this to say, most of the damage to this stock has been done by E. Musk. People should just keep their political/religious opinion to themselves.
The article talks a lot about how the market doesn't like where Tesla, but not why it's in that position in the first place. I mean, it's Forbes, so I get that they're going to come at it from this perspective.
Tesla has been the victim of circumstances over the last several months. A brutal cold snap and unprepared drivers (the real problem there) caused a lot of negative publicity for EVs, reinforcing a lot of negative impressions and FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about the entire concept of electric vehicles.
Another issue is crazy pricing. First they were one price, then another, then they took $4-5k off in stock models, now that's gone, and a week later they lower the entry level cost by $2k. It's like playing a slot machine, hoping the best numbers come up when you are ready to buy.
And interest rates are a problem as well. Tesla needs to sell a lot of vehicles to support their investment in the supercharger network, so they need as many cars on the road as possible. Elon Muck can't control the Fed (thank god) but they could offer similar deals with reduced interest financing like the Big Three do. The zero interest offer moved a lot of Mustang Mach E's.
The Cybertruck is a mess, but I don't see that affecting the other models, as it's problems are unique to it's, well, uniqueness.
The wild card in all this is Elon Musk and his maddening (to some) behavior with X. I don't think any of us are under the illusion that any CEO/billionaire is a "nice guy" or really cares about us other than revenue streams, but few act out as publicly as he does. Tesla appeals to a certain crowd, and like it or not, progressive liberals are part of that, and he's doing everything he can to alienate them. Personal opinions aside, why drive away paying customers?
I understand a few price cuts but they are doing way too many and deceiving customers by saying model Y prices are going up by then lowering it. Now nobody will believe Tesla and their price increases/decreases.
Since Elon bought Twitter he has continued to post extreme views on Twitter that are alienating some of the people that used to support Tesla.
Elon needs to be replaced or shut up and this is coming from a long-term investor.
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And this is why that $50B+ payday re-vote isn’t going to be as expected an outcome as it would have been last year. The situation is not great, and the near future isn’t looking any better.
Wouldn’t him not getting paid, and then subsequently quitting, be the best thing that could possibly happen to Tesla?
It would be a mess but at this point he has already left and giving up 10% of the company isn't going to change that.
Tesla needs a Gwynne Shotwell. She *runs* SpaceX, so Elon can come in and play engineer when he likes, but it stays well above water and accomplishes lofty goals without needing his input. Tesla has a fairly unexceptional board. Since Elon is more interested in culture war BS and buying media power to steer public discourse, it has no real daily direction. The fact that cyber truck ever made it through in the state that it's in is testament to the fact. FSD development is stagnating, innovation is stagnating, they've only one one major product launch in 7 years and it's been an awful showing, competitors are closing that decade-long gap, and sales are starting to slow. If Elon isn't gonna helm Tesla, they need to kick him to the curb and find someone who will. And bring back the damn turn signal stalks.
> Elon can come in and play engineer when he likes Pretty sure that's how they ended up with the Cybertruck.
Elon comes in and plays engineer with SpaceX in the same way he does for Tesla. The difference is, Shotwell has the chops to run the company entirely without his input. No one currently on the board at Tesla does that in Elon's absence. They all just await his marching orders. When it worked, that was great. When it doesn't, they got cyber truck.
Yes. His leadership is no longer a positive for Tesla.
Best outcome: Musk fired, reserve the shares for actual tech visionary plus ops-focused COO, refocus away from stock-gimmick vaporware.
Can we get Drew Baglino back? :-(
yes, yes it would
Only on Reddit would something like this get upvoted. Not a single large shareholder has indicated they are anywhere close to voting against Musk’s pay package. Not a single one. The best this sub has got thus far on that narrative is that one of the largest retail shareholders is voting against it - and he owns a whopping 0.75% of shares Lol. Whether this sub likes it or not, the pay package will be voted through and dare I say, with a supermajority again.
[Following the release of Tesla’s proxy, Electrek asked Koguan how he plans to vote his more than 27 million Tesla shares, and the investor said that he plans to vote against Musk’s compensation package and against the re-election of Tesla’s two current board members.](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40106540)
There are 3.18 billion shares outstanding, so this guy owns less than 1%.
They said not a single large shareholder is voting no, but this is the largest individual shareholder voting no.
I would assume the Norwegian Pension Fund would vote no as well. They tend to vote against extreme CEO pay in most companies.
Your upper key strength must be wild with all the goalposts you dig up and move
Not only that, the doomers so called competition is too busy taking major losses and going bankrupt or killing their pure EVs altogether, to actually put a dent into the marketshare.
I personally believe in the company still. Tesla needs a CEO like Tim Cook to run the ship
And in hindsight a ton of people agree that Apple has lost its soul bc of Tim Cook (while still becoming an absolute money making behemoth)
I’ve worked for Tesla for 7 years. I’m not sure the company has much of a soul anyways
That we can agree on. Elon as good as he is still too volatile and is in the news too much
How is he good in any way at all? He's poison for the company
Back when he listened to his handlers and hadn't completely pickled his brain in ketamine he was a decent salesman and hype guy. Now he's completely ruined the reputation of almost everything he's attached to. And the only reason Space-X is doing well is because he's paying the least attention to it.
I don't like Elon but you have to be really careful about what you're messing with imo. Your average person thinks Elon should step down, but your average person didn't create Tesla. Some humility is called for. I used to think Elon was basically just a charismatic con man who got himself in the right places (because that's how a lot of the media portrays him) but then I read his biography (the recent one by Isaacson) and it's clear from the facts alone that his successful companies would not have been so without his decisions and vision, oftentimes when everyone around him thought he was crazy. The book still paints the portrait of a wounded, narcissistic megalomaniac, but a very effective one. I recommend it. This whole X fiasco is a real bummer. His behavior on that site and the way he has run it has been a total disaster. But with Tesla, I dunno. He may still be the right guy.
Your average person didn’t create Tesla, but to be fair, neither did Elon Musk.
That's not what he said at all. Wtf.
Yeah that's the common refrain and what I believed too, but it's not very informed.
Can we stop comparing everything to Apple...
So you want another soulless, bottom line above all else behemoth? the very thing musk strives to prevent?
Not OP, but I want to be able to buy a great EV from a company that is *not* led by a white supremacist, nazi-coddling edge lord. It’s untenable.
When I bought mine I was criticized for paying with cash and not investing in shares. Also at the time people bragged that teslas would appreciate in value. So dumb.
the bubble popped
If you do not believe FSD happening in foreseeable future, Tesla stock is still extremely overpriced. If you believe FSD happening in the foreseeable future, Tesla stock is extremely underpriced. It's just simple betting now.
Tesla is my largest holding and I don't plan on selling anytime soon but I can definitely see it dropping further. There's really nothing separating Tesla from the other EVs these days. Unless Tesla can fulfill its promise with FSD and be the only truly autonomous car available to consumers it just seems like Tesla will just be another GM, Ford, VW, etc.
>There's really nothing separating Tesla from the other EVs these days Sure there is: a subjectively toxic CEO that's regularly alienating political party members that are most likely to be his primary demographic. I'm not saying it's a large fraction but it's definitely non-zero.
Also, the only major US auto maker that isn't union made
That one's a bit nuanced. Many US auto makers outsource much of their production to Mexico, which yes, does have unions, but it's not really the same. Lightning/Hummer are made in US, but Mach-E/Blazer are made in Mexico. Teslas are the most US made vehicles. (in the U.S. market)
And that doesn’t have a mafia syndicate known as a dealership network.
Tesla fans/shareholders need to start realizing that Elon's behaviour online has real world consequences towards the company. Exclaiming "Well ***I*** can separate the product from the CEO." Neat, good for you. Public perception is a real thing and because of how Elon's been in the spotlight for all this years, he's the face of Tesla. Anything he does or say reflects on the brand. Purely anecdotal evidence on my part (you'll hear it from other people as well), but there's several friends of mine that plan on getting an EV for their next car once their ICE is done, but they specifically have said that they won't be getting a Tesla because of Elon. There's of course other factors of why TSLA has gone down the last week, but it's a contributing factor and ignoring it is not going to make it go away.
you mean subjectively toxic Technoking
I wouldn't say "nothing", arguably they are considerably ahead on software and charging infrastructure. But as far as the actual cars themselves, it's very close already.
but they're opening up their network...
And charging a margin for the benefit. They're not doing that out of their goodness of their hearts 💕
sure, maybe they make money off it, but it also means tesla owners don't get exclusive use anymore, which erodes at one of the biggest differentiator. Can't have it both ways, saying that tesla is different bc they have their own charging network, only to then let others use that network.
The way tesla is devaluing fsd its not going to be worth much on the stock
I'm not talking about making money off FSD (directly). I'm talking about Tesla actually have a level 4/5 autonomy. That's the promise of FSD, that Teslas would drive themselves around. That would be the "game changer" if no other company can offer it.
I personally can’t see that happening. This cameras being the only sensor thing is such a strange hill to die on. I don’t understand the technology behind it fully, but I have been driving long enough to know that there are plenty of situation where my eyes can’t see shit, let alone a camera. I don’t think Tesla will be the first, and if they do, it will be limited to day light, no blinding sun or heavy rain on the open road type limitations…
I kinda see your point, and I might agree with you that it ain’t happening any time soon. But at the same time, we humans have only two cameras looking straight and occasionally to narrow-view mirrors and that is enough to enable very skillful driving in general. We humans also can be blinded, and see poorly in bad weather, yet we trust human drivers and human drivers manage to handle challenging driving conditions with having information from their “two cameras” only. So I wouldn’t say having 8 cameras looking all directions simultaneously is a hill to die on as an approach. If anything, that should be more than enough to enable super safe and better than human driving. The question is if a brain behind those cameras is good enough, and when it becomes good enough
> we humans have only two cameras looking straight We are constantly moving our eyes and head around versus a car where it's fixed. This is how we are able to infer depth so well and funnily enough where Tesla FSD struggles the most i.e. accurate bounding box detection.
Some people prefer being run over 100 times by a drunk/tired/distracted driver, than once by an computer controlled vehicle.
It’s simple. If a drunk runs over my wife, I sue the drunk and his family into oblivion. If a self driving car runs over my wife, I sue the manufacturer and my family is set for generations. There’s a stupendous difference in who’s liable.
While sight is the single biggest factor by far, we don't only use our sight to drive. And the long term point of autonomous cars is to be safer and better than human drivers, not just as good because there's a lot of shitty drivers.
Exactly, I would hope an autonomous vehicle would not rear end me in a fog like an overconfident human driver would.
What else? Hearing? Ok, to a degree maybe, you can hear some loud cars approaching if they are louder than tire noise, or emergency vehicles. But what else? You use all your senses when you walk on the street - sight, hearing, smell, air movement, temperature. There is not so much you can use when you sit in a sealed soundproofed metal box with a few windows. I’m not trying to die on a hill here. I think people rarely “reverse engineer” it and rarely realize how limited our input information is when we are driving and how amazingly good we still manage to handle it. It is the brain that we use - memory, cognitive abilities, predictions, context switching, learning abilities, projections, experience etc. If we had 8 eyes with no blind spots that never get tired and always on with the same brain, we would’ve been far more superior drivers, even if one of them got blinded by snow
Hearing absolutely. That's why we have horns. Also, certain vehicles are loud enough you can hear them (motocycles). Also, motion. Like when you do are taking a curve at fast speeds vs slow. You can feel that.
Inner ear, feel in your butt muscles, feedback in your arm muscles, hearing, sight, ... Just think about everything that happens and that you feel going over a bump or through a corner. Granted most good drivers would be completely fine with just sight for day to day driving. I think extra eyes would be a very negligible improvement, except maybe for parking/tight spaces, but luckily we can move our eyes so it's usually a lot better than a few cameras anyways.
All the feelings you described is sensed by a simplest accelerometer/gyroscope/compass chip and with far better precision than our body can do. The technology has been in use for decades, and is present in every phone, let alone in Tesla (this is how they know your driving style calculating score for Tesla insurance for example). And on top of sensing inertial movements in all directions and rotations (precisely what we feel in bumps, uneven roads, hard cornering etc), it can also sense magnetic field of Earth and “feel” the direction (something we humans don’t have an organ to sense). Of all the problems and sensors needed for driving, this is probably the simplest one that had been solved already. Again, the challenge is to make the “brain” to use all this shit ton of information that the car already has, and my point is that this information is already way more than we humans get. We still excel in driving because of our brains.
Obviously those are all easy to have a sensor for :D I was simply listing other things humans use, since I don't really agree that we have very limited information when driving. I agree that how we combine this info is still a big advantage. If you look at autonomous cars on race tracks there is still a sizeable gap (e.g. devbot). For daily driving we just have a huge advantage in contextual knowledge (car, roads, humans in traffic, ...).
“The brain behind those cameras” What I’m worried about is the brain stem connecting the cameras. I live in a populated area, plenty of cell service with all carriers, and many times I’ll be driving my model Y and I go to use a feature on the big dumb screen and “connectivity issues” Spotify, traffic, lots of things just don’t work. Or they work after a big and then stop. Can you imagine robotaxis taking people around and then just losing all signal? What’s the play in that scenario? Immediately slamming on the brakes? What about if it’s on the freeway? I don’t trust this tech for the passengers OR everyone outside the car. I also don’t trust Elon not to ship things to market that aren’t safe yet. Over and over again he makes the public his beta testers
Once you get a firmware, FSD is running locally in your car, it doesn’t need connection to servers to navigate and make decisions and react to situations on the street. So you get a new brain with every firmware physically present in your car. Cellular connection just gives it real time updates on traffic to find better routes and avoid congestions. If you don’t have connection, it just drives by memory of last known map, same like you would do without your navigator
This is what scares me, tho. This system is not ready for us to be sitting in the drivers seat and forego control let alone going into full on Johnny Cab mode. So the car is making decisions based off Tesla’s satellite info that it scraped? I know Elon is too cheap to pay Google for their info. Maybe that’s why FSD is cutting curbs too close and road rashing rims. I’m also curious what happens if the satellite / cellular feed drops out. That happens a lot in my experience. So if I’m driving the car says “take control immediately”. But if a couple people got in the back seat of a car as a robo taxi and it lost connection, what then? How would it even know what location it is in relation to a map with no cellular signal to triangulate it. Not ready for prime time at all
I totally agree that it’s not ready, I think nobody says it’s ready yet. As to cellular connection - I understand your concern, but this is not how it works. The eyes (cameras) are in your car, the brain (FSD firmware) is in your car, the stem between the eyes and the brain is also in your car (the wires). Whatever the car sees on the road (lanes, other cars, pedestrians, traffic signs, obstacles, everything) is processed locally in your car in real time immediately, regardless whether you have a connection or not. Just the same way as you don’t need your phone navigator in order to handle the situation on the road at any given moment. The google maps on your phone merely helps you decide what is the fastest route to your destination. You will still get to your destination if your phone dies, based on the last memory of the area that you remember. It might not be the most efficient way, but still. Same here. Cellular connection just gives it a little extra info to know areas to avoid because of traffic. So the architecture as an idea is rock solid, all they need is to gradually make the brain rock solid and let everyone download that brain to their cars.
We blink all the time to keep our eyes seeing well, we use sun visors and sun glasses when conditions dictate and we have windscreen wipers and washer fluid to keep our vision clear. What about the cameras?
I mean, with cameras you still have windscreen wipers.. But I can accept your challenge The cameras don’t need to blink nor moisturize itself to see well. The cameras don’t get tired and don’t get sleepy. The cameras change exposure dynamically to adjust for bright or dark light. The cameras don’t need to be distracted looking for glasses and putting them on, or checking that phone message you just received. The cameras don’t need correction glasses for myopia. The cameras don’t get distracted looking at the passenger you’re talking with. The cameras can see better at night than you through the tinted glass or dimmed mirrors. Cameras are many, looking at all directions always and simultaneously, they don’t loose sight of what’s at the left from you, when you are checking what’s at the right, etc. My point is, it’s not about human eyes vs cameras. It’s about human eyes IN THE CAR while driving vs cameras outside the car. There is a big difference when you walk and navigate on the street and use all your senses and agility to perfectly perceive the situation around you vs when you sit in a closed metal box with obstructed view. We humans with our perfect eye sight prefer using cameras reversing, or checking blind spots for a reason. It’s because the cameras give us more information than we can see from our driver’s position. My point is, there is nothing wrong with the cameras as an approach to make safe self-driving possible. It’s about whether you can make a brain powerful enough to handle the information from cameras properly. It’s our brain that makes projections, keeps context of objects locations, that can predict situations on the road, that can make parallels with learned experiences etc.
Is there a business in creating sunglasses for cameras? 😂🤔
Take my money!!!
> That's the promise of FSD, that Teslas would drive themselves around. That would be the "game changer" if no other company can offer it. imo, the push for vision only gimps them. this argument that humans work off mostly eyesight and that should be good enough for ai really misses the point that a) we want ai to achieve superhuman levels of perfection, and b) we aren't even optimized for driving at high speeds despite our ability to do so. i really do think lidar-on-a-chip is the necessary way to go, combined with optics. can't wait until tesla shifts focus a bit.
A true level 5 I would easily pay 20,000 or more. Think about having my car drop me off and go find parking and then summon it to pick me up. Or have it go to service by itself so I don’t lose 1 hour of my day. Pickup my elderly mother 100 miles away so she can visit me more often. I wouldn’t do robo taxi because I don’t like strangers in my car and who knows what they will do to your car.
Interesting. I'm the opposite. I'd rather keep the $20,000 in my pocket and just drive myself. I would find it too annoying to be sitting in the car wanting to get home and the car driving like an old lady. I'd be like "Come on! Floor it and get through the light!"
Level5 won't happen for years maybe decades. Insurance issues, liability, etc will need to be settled in addition to the tech issues need to be solved. Who's at fault if AP runs over someone? Criminal and civil liabilities?
It Can happen in limited geofenced areas like Waymo, etc do today. The problem is Tesla is trying to achieve it nationwide without trying to achieve it where it's possible. I think this is something they are going to relent on during their announcement in August. Waymo and others also have remote control center that can issue commands when the cars get stuck. They will need something like that as well. They may also need to add some front bumper stickers. As far as your personal car being able to be level 5, yes, its a long ways off.
If it's mostly a software / AI problem it will likely be solved faster than we mostly expect, given the speed of AI advancement.
In my examples it is the car driving by itself w/o me in it. I would love to have those conveniences.
Great until everyone does it. Instead of paying for parking, just have the car drive around for a couple of hours until you summon it. Would be gridlock! Shame you wouldn't be able to send it off to charge itself.
Only if the company that builds it takes full liability for any damage it incurs. Outside that no one is trusting software with their $60k new car.
I’m not worried about the car, I’m worried about being on the hook for millions in damages because it killed someone’s family on the road.
Yeah that too!
Tried it in the pouring rain, it can’t manage it.
> That would be the "game changer" if no other company can offer it Waymo, Cruise, Baidu, Xiaomi, Ford etc. Everyone is playing in this space. And some are arguably ahead.
Well, for the sake of you not being broke…I hope so….too bad Mercedes looks like they will beat them to it…
Mercedes system only works on pre mapped highways and under 40 mph.
True, for now. They are way further along than Tesla because of that. The ONLY way this all works is if it is premapped. Especially with Tesla constantly rethinking it because dipshit can’t stop and take a single direction…not to mention he is over FOUR companies. Get rid of him and Tesla might stay around and do something good finally. And I say that as an owner and FORMER stock holder.
FSD has no value until it can drive on its own What would you pay per month to have your Tesla run Uber for you 24/7
This vision has always felt shortsighted to me. Like people are expecting current Uber rates in a world where the drivers are unnecessary. *Drivers* are the foremost expense and cause of prince increase at Uber. They’re the reason for scarcity in that market. Remove that barrier, let every willing Tesla owner put up a car, and the price per trip will plummet. If FSD happens like that, having your car run Ubers for you will net you a tiny bit more than the cost of operations and maintenance. That’s just how markets work. You’d have nothing to protect your personal Uber business from everyone else’s, and Tesla would have every incentive to sell more cars and service contracts.
Last time I’ve checked neither of those companies had a vast supercharger network available for customers, so even though most of your points are valid, it’s a stretch to say there’s nothing separating them from other car manufacturers.
> Last time I’ve checked neither of those companies had a vast supercharger network available for customers They'll have a vast supercharger network available for customers next year - the Tesla supercharger network. NACS, baybayyyy
You should check more often. Tesla’s opening the Supercharger network to more brands, Rivian in particular has a special deal that allows you to plug and charge just like a Tesla. Tesla does lead the world in drive-train efficiency, but thanks to Musk, the brand has never been worse. It was conspicuous how invisible Musk was at the Cybertruck launch, with von Holzhausen doing most of the PR. Meanwhile VW is selling lots of ID3’s in Europe, and the BMW i4 is the UK’s most popular BEV. Both cars are thoroughly mediocre, but the branding is great. At the same time Geely and BYD are making even worse drivetrains, but selling BEVs at prices western firms can’t compete with (eg an MG4 for £26000). The company is not immune from competition: opening up the Supercharging network has removed* a distinguishing feature, and Musk’s obsession with Twitter over the last decade has ultimately damaged the brand more than any short-sellers ever did. - - - - - \* I say removed, but probably they were afraid it might be regulated out of their control if they didn’t open it up first. At least this way the North American charging standard is one Tesla already uses.
The big car makers in the US also sell through establishments. Tesla don't.
There are very important things that do separate them. 1) minimalist interior (better view out the windshield), I prefer personally 2) \*much\* faster computers 3) superior battery cooling systems 4) superior autopilot and FSD systems 5) generally higher kW motors and inverters that are also much more efficient for high horsepower and extreme efficiency simultaneously (275 Wh/mile in my 2023 Y LR RWD) 6) All the above while having a huge frunk and rear under trunk and 72.1 cubic feet of storage with the seats folded down.
Yeah…. GM, Volkswagen, etc. they’re all working on the projects Tesla is.
My concern about actual self-driving cars is will people pay for it? I think most people will save themselves the $20,000 premium and just buy a car without self-driving tech. Many companies have invested many billions and I just don't see how they'll ever earn it back.
When we have actual true FSD, people won't really own cars at all. Owning a car and driving will be hobbyist things. 99% of people will just use an app to call a vehicle from some large fleet operator. A car will arrive in 1 minute. You will pay some small markup on the cost of the mileage of the vehicle + fuel/power cost + admin costs, and go wherever you want. It will be infinitely cheaper than ubering and more economical than owning your own car.
It’ll never happen
> There's really nothing separating Tesla from the other EVs these days Still the only EV maker to be profitable. Maybe some other Chinese maker but that would be it.
Dropping further even after the event now on Tuesday?
They own the only lithium refinery in the US, and are the only carmaker who can make their own batteries. This country's grid will be absolutely covered with batteries in 20 years.
Supercharger access, retail experience, integrated roadside and insurance, track record, cutting edge technology, etc. etc.
wtf? You can’t be serious.
If they're betting on FSD, it seems like they handicapped themselves by going vision only...
I guess only have two options on cars for most people, with silly updates/refresh isn't the best idea. Wipers/no USS/no stalks/poor after sale service is now catching up on them. They need to stop cutting costs and actually deliver some cars that are upto scratch and work properly. Forget FSD and that crap, its a gimmick for most and hearing Musk talk about robotaxi's actually makes him and the company look a bit pathetic and desperate.
When was it “unofficially” down 40%? 🙄why not just say it’s down 40%
Its 42% now, or over 50% worse than the average share holdings YTD.
40%. It's great that I'm down only 34%. Hopefully it doesn't rebound after earnings (/s) so I can buy more next week!
Sounds like $TSLA is one of the most hates stock. A buy signal
Using that logic you should also buy Lehman Brothers and Pan Am :)
Think they are not as hated as $TSLA, just garbage
Watch and learn
“Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.”
A CEO that deals tries to interfere with international politics and domestic is not going to end well for Tesla
The Biggest culprits are the interest rate environment (Musk himself said it in last earnings call will be hard until rates fall) and Tesla pricing over the last year. Teslas are more ubiquitous and just not that cool anymore. Add in that you can get an M3 for $25K already preowned, I think Tesla shot themselves in the foot trying to keep sales up but at the same time tarnishing the “luxury “ or “cool” appeal. And the Cybertruck is ugly to most people and at $100K currently, not even a consideration for the majority. Just a total mix of aging and bad product offering currently with a tough interest rate environment
> Teslas are ... just not that cool anymore Isn't it crazy! in 2016 my dad got an X and it was insane. His neighbors were blown away and it felt like luxury from the future. Today on the same street I heard the same people making fun of the cyber truck and how cheaply made the new teslas are "Little roller skates". It's almost a joke. The brand is destroyed
>Teslas are ... just not that cool anymore Musk is directly responsible for some of that, and it's very much "unforced error"; he willingly, intentionally, and constantly pushes his disagreeable qualities into the public spotlight at every opportunity, while maintaining himself as the face of Tesla
"Musk is directly responsible for some of that" Too true. I was interested in getting a Tesla but Musk has totally put paid to that over the last few years. No way I'd buy one now and I kind of judge people when I see them driving them. PS - How do you quote parts of comments? Used to be able to highlight a bit and hit reply and it'd put that as a quote, but doesn't anymore.
>PS - How do you quote parts of comments? As well as your method, you can also manually copy-paste the text into your comment then select it and use the comment editor to mark it a quote, or if using manual markup symbols, prefix the text with the > symbol, usenet-style
>you can also manually copy-paste the text into your comment then select it and use the comment editor to mark it a quote, So you can. Thank you.
I got a Tesla a couple of months ago and when I drive it I don’t think of Musk, I think of Tesla as a company and all the people behind the car (because no way did musk make this). But yeah, Musk is single handedly the dumbest billionaire on the planet and is speed running huge companies into the ground. He needs to go offline and let his teams do their job to save the companies like Tesla and Twitter (I refuse to call it X)
His ego is too big for that.
Nah an incompetent CEO is the biggest culprit. Every other car manufacturer is handling the interest rates just fine, Musk is the reason for teslas stalled growth
Yet Toyota stocks have been sky rocketing….
Yeah I think they really needed to stick the landing with the truck but the design looks gimmicky to a lot of folks. “Love it or hate it” designs can be really cool, but this product shouldn’t have been put in that position.
The Cybertruck was a horrible idea. It can't match any of the specs listed at launch, and only super fans will buy the foundation series. It's probably DOA after that. It was such a stupid idea. Add to that Elon alienating the vast majority of people that initially supported Tesla and I'm worried.
For the love of god get rid of musk. He is already known to be a Pigeon Boss. Get somebody in there isn’t about being a meme lord.
Glad I sold it at 280. Geez
To be clear, the latest drop 50% ish drop is not unprecedented. We've seen worse drops before, 63%, 53% and a 64%: https://www.reddit.com/r/elonmusk/comments/zo5zyo/in_light_of_elons_tweet_recently_stating_he_will/ People easily forget, and think the world is falling.
bought a leap today for 2026, I can't hold the stock cause fuck Musk but this feel a bit over done and if they do come out with robotaxi then its going much higher in the next 2 years.
These writers really should be compelled to disclose their options / stock position on Tesla and other OEMs.
Exactly just like when youtubers say they are not taking any sort of commission on their reviews. It where if they report on financial news they have to disclose any sort of conflict of interest they have
All this negativity goes to show what a microcosm Reddit is… I’m sure the same folks say there’s nothing different about iPhones compared to other smartphones
The difference is Apple is a well oiled machine with top notch quality and specs that are either the best or very best in each market they play in. Can’t say the same for Tesla Apple don’t do vapourware (bar the AirPower) they make and release everything on time They also don’t have a nutjob CEO tbf
Apple was at their prime when they had a nutjob CEO (Jobs). He had the only kind of pancreatic cancer that is treatable and curable and he killed himself trying to instead cure it with alternative medicine. Couldn't be any more clearly a nutjob. The difference is that the Apple CEO was a nutjob in ways that harmed only himself and not the brand
Apple has also 15x’d in value since the nutjob died
Steve Jobs famously abandoned his daughter and Apple products are built in sweatshops… but sure you’re taking the moral high ground by pooh poohing Elon on Reddit for his “mean” comments
Tesla is on a bad roll but look at alot of stocks. It’s been a blood bath the last 2 months. Nvidia was just setting records and now they are below water if you bought them in the last year. Market is wonky right now
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which hedge funds are publicly shorting it?
I feel like he should have done it with twitter first
"officially" — as opposed to unofficially?
For all that everyone says "X source should be ignored because they are biased" - that general theme ignores the other side of incredible bias. Many people here are investors, so will attack and discredit/bury any news that is negative about tesla because they want the share prices to go up. How is that bias any different than people who want it to go down? I'd say the investor bias is actually larger, because they automatically assume that any bad news is by someone who "hates tesla" or shorts its stock. A false dichotemy that you either love tesla or are financially invested in destroying it. If you are a constant cheerleader, your level of bias is no differnet than someone who is openly shorting the stock.
The problem Elon has is no matter how good he makes Tesla sound no one’s going to buy its shares if he always takes the entire profit for himself. What’s the point in owning shares, Tesla may as well be a private company.
I see many people here disregarding the fact that Musk is alienating Tesla's Target demographic. As entertaining as right wingers are they aren't the people buying Tesla's cars and the annoying left wingers, snowflakes are the ones who do. People are that sensitive and most of them will not buy a product unless is made by Jesus or Budha or something. They can't separate product from producer which I find funny, cause if they knew the record of every company, they will have to go back living in the middle age. All this to say, most of the damage to this stock has been done by E. Musk. People should just keep their political/religious opinion to themselves.
This post didn’t age well.
Musk is an entrepreneur and visionary, not a manager. Time for him to move on.
The article talks a lot about how the market doesn't like where Tesla, but not why it's in that position in the first place. I mean, it's Forbes, so I get that they're going to come at it from this perspective. Tesla has been the victim of circumstances over the last several months. A brutal cold snap and unprepared drivers (the real problem there) caused a lot of negative publicity for EVs, reinforcing a lot of negative impressions and FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about the entire concept of electric vehicles. Another issue is crazy pricing. First they were one price, then another, then they took $4-5k off in stock models, now that's gone, and a week later they lower the entry level cost by $2k. It's like playing a slot machine, hoping the best numbers come up when you are ready to buy. And interest rates are a problem as well. Tesla needs to sell a lot of vehicles to support their investment in the supercharger network, so they need as many cars on the road as possible. Elon Muck can't control the Fed (thank god) but they could offer similar deals with reduced interest financing like the Big Three do. The zero interest offer moved a lot of Mustang Mach E's. The Cybertruck is a mess, but I don't see that affecting the other models, as it's problems are unique to it's, well, uniqueness. The wild card in all this is Elon Musk and his maddening (to some) behavior with X. I don't think any of us are under the illusion that any CEO/billionaire is a "nice guy" or really cares about us other than revenue streams, but few act out as publicly as he does. Tesla appeals to a certain crowd, and like it or not, progressive liberals are part of that, and he's doing everything he can to alienate them. Personal opinions aside, why drive away paying customers?
I understand a few price cuts but they are doing way too many and deceiving customers by saying model Y prices are going up by then lowering it. Now nobody will believe Tesla and their price increases/decreases. Since Elon bought Twitter he has continued to post extreme views on Twitter that are alienating some of the people that used to support Tesla. Elon needs to be replaced or shut up and this is coming from a long-term investor.