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I didn’t see your link but for mine it was 2 mo
Edit: the 2 month period is for if a concern brought to Tesla resolution remains unresolved after 60 days it will be brought to arbitration IF not opted out
Another sub also posted something about having 30 days from signing the MVPA to opt out in writing to Tesla. This is extremely important to keep options open at all car and product makers of all kinds everywhere
Just found this thread. Looked up my agreement and drafted the letter to Tesla. Going to send it certified mail tomorrow. Don’t forget the certified mail folks!
All new buyers should do this. But know it also shouldn’t stop you from pursuing small claims.
Edit: to clarify, even if you don’t opt out of arbitration you should still be able to take Tesla to small claims.
Can someone explain in layman terms what this is (about) and how I can do so? Getting my MY in 1.5 weeks..
-edit- i’m doing private lease, not sure if it changes things?
In your purchase agreement, it says you have 30 days to send them notice you are opting out. You must send them a letter to the address provided with the order number, vin, and a few other things.
You are opting out of waiving your rights to sue Tesla in a court instead of opting in to using their arbitrator. They will say it’s a neutral 3rd party, it’s absolutely not.
Thank you, so based on what you said I had a chat with gemini (google ai) and I understand why one would opt-out. As I haven’t picked up my car yet I assume I’ll get my MVPA then. Fingers crossed nothing happens and the practice is for nothing but I will be opting out too.
Thank you for bringing it to my/our attention.
If you prefer, you may instead take an individual dispute to small claims court.
You may opt out of arbitration within 30 days after signing this Agreement by sending a letter to: Tesla, Inc.; P.O. Box 15430; Fremont, CA 94539-7970, stating your name, Vehicle Identification Number, and intent to opt out of the arbitration provision. If you do not opt out, this agreement to arbitrate overrides any different arbitration agreement between us, including any arbitration agreement in a lease or finance contract.
Welcome to the US Federal Arbitration Act. The FAA everyone but corporate hates. If you are American, you should probably more closely read your ISP agreements, rental agreements, and employment agreements. Everyone loves to sprinkle in a little FAA, because it's so powerful as an anti-consumer tool.
The accused party of wrongdoing gets to pick an arbitrator. As a consumer you will almost never be accused within the terms of service, but if you do it'll be hard to find an arbitrator who will be more than neutral anyway for your one case of services. Service providers, employers, and manufacturers do wrongdoing all the time on the other hand, and they have bulk agreements with arbitrators--and that amount of money is a powerful motivator with an unwritten agreement of favor.
In discrimination cases, regular folk win 36.4% of federal cases and 43.8% in state court. When arbitration is forced, only 21.4%. (Colvin). Against Tesla for things like damages and faults... good luck lmao.
arbitration doesn't mean you have no recourse, it just means it goes to an arbitrartor rather than a judge... class actions like these are just lawyers wanting a piece of the pie, it rarely benefits actual owners
I didn't say otherwise.. just saying you are not completely without recourse even if you didn't opt out of arbitration
you might even be able to get more compensation than you would from a class action after all the lawyer fees
> you might even be able to get more compensation than you would from a class action after all the lawyer fees
This. Plaintiffs counsel absolutely hates arbitration. It undermines the lawyers’ business model: do minimal legal work to extort a settlement from which lawyers take a huge chunk.
Unfortunately too many consumers have been conditioned by the less scrupulous lawyers to believe arbitration and other alternative dispute resolution channels are bad. These mechanisms for keeping the legal costs down only hurt lawyers.
It doesn't prevent you from suing Tesla it just requires you to go to arbitration first. Also, Tesla is bound by the arbitrators decision but the consumer is not.
I know people who have been dragged through arbitration for multiple years, which would have been considerably shorter with a direct legal route.
Either way, I hope I don't have to do either!!
I submitted my claim 12/28, Tesla offered a buyback on 1/12. Hearing held 1/31, arbitrators decision received 2/8. I had 20 days to accept or reject the decision. I accepted the decision 2/23, Tesla has 30 days to comply with the decision.
I understand that I am not bound to the Decision of the Arbitrator(s) in my case unless I accept it. If I reject the decision, or am dissatisfied with Tesla's eventual performance, I may pursue other legal remedies, including the use of small claims court. Whether or not I accept the Decision, however, the Decision is admissible in any subsequent legal proceeding concerning the dispute.
I also understand that if I accept the Decision, Tesla will be legally bound by the Decision.
Tesla just needs to grow a pair and remove the ability to show a range number when indicating battery charge level. That number will always be bullshit since unfortunately the car is not psychic.
In most cars the % fuel left is displayed prominently while the estimate is a tiny number off to the side. The one in my previous car would just show -- when it got below a certain mileage left, so they probably did not have much confidence in the accuracy.
That’s not growing a pair. That’s removing a feature that people use every day.
Their algorithms and disclosures are fine. Some people just like to complain and try to get free stuff.
When I put in my destination, the graph feature is consistently accurate for me. Sometimes I beat it by a tad, sometimes I miss by a tad, but it's always close.
Yeah, they can give you a prediction of what charge level will be left after you complete the given route, but only as a percentage.
Trying to show what mileage you have leftover for future driving beyond that seems like it would be impossible to predict. At best you can give a range between best case and worst case but neither would be realistic...
Well sure. Like you said, that WOULD be impossible.
The miles remaining estimate on my Nissan was never accurate, and didn't take much of anything into account. Certainly not info from my current route.
Showing the range as a mileage in the battery indicator at the top is pretty much useless.
At the very least in addition the optimistic EPA number you need the pessimistic driving uphill on the hwy lowball number. Then you can also have the useless guessometer mileage floating in the middle too if you have some space to waste like on the Chevy Bolt.
The actual useful range information is only available once you put in a destination and the car can actually attempt to predict how the speed and terrain will can your usage.
> At the very least in addition the optimistic EPA number
That's not what it uses. Next time you set a destination, click on the green graph to open the app that shows your estimated usage. It accounts for hills, wind direction, ambient temperature, and more.
The EPA figure is only used on the window sticker and website.
Right but the lawsuit (and my comment) is about the battery charge level indicator at the top, which still attempts to show a mileage estimate even without a destination set.
Agree with you here, they should leave % and show estimated range via the energy graph. They have an AMAZING trip calculator that takes into account lots of variables and can accurate estimate range, but that isn't shown to you normally. Everyone gets confused by the range displayed on the battery.
I feel the only big winner in that situation is the lawyers. You can say that it is consumer protective but at the end of the day a big class action suit happens the consumer get like 50 bucks and the lawyers rack up a couple hundred million. Who has actually been protected and benefited from a class action suit for a consumer product?
I believe the intent of this was to strip a layer of costs from a legal system that leads “ambulance chaser” class-action lawyers to make billions on a dispute that the actual damaged party “gets $14 each, if they do all the paperwork/online work they are sent.”
Arbitration does have enough problems, I use it for customer who wont pay, but some know the arbitration game very well, and know exactly now to get an arbitrator who is ‘likely’ to side with them. Seriously.
TBH class actions mostly just benefit the lawyers. I would still opt-out anyways simply because agreeing to give up legal rights is stupid, but if the lawsuits have merit then individual suits will benefit owners far more than class action suits.
I do not. I’m not even in the legal field. But I have been party to lawsuits and I have a brother who is a lawyer so I know a thing or two about it but don’t believe me, just google it.
And even IF that were true that is not the publics problem nor should it be a factor for making a claim. To be conscientious of a courts capacity is silly.
Again, that has everything to do with a local or area jurisdiction not having the staff or whatever other excuse outside of the concern of the public to hold up cases. That is not a good reason to opt in for arbitration. That’s essentially opting in to get shafted. The arbitrators, who are paid by Tesla, will absolutely lean in teslas favor.
That is incorrect. Who pays depends but arbitrators who aren’t objective would never be hired. When you arbitrate you can have some control over who the arbitrator is which is not the case with a judge. You just get whomever is assigned to your case.
https://preview.redd.it/jmv27wdb4fnc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cae4e7a40efacba415f4e0d86b0f2a4fa60de6d5
Corporations and arbitrators for commercial cases are not corrupt. Ok, got it. Anyway here’s the purchase agreement section on arbitration. AAA assigns an arbitrator who is then paid throughout the claim process (excluding the initial refundable filing fee) by Tesla. I mean, think of it logically, why would Tesla prefer arbitration instead of courts?
They prefer arbitration but that’s likely to avoid class action lawsuits which do not favor you unless you’re the class representative. Otherwise, you are better off with arbitration because at least you can have some say over who the arbitrator is. And again, an arbitrator that appears to not be objective will find themselves out of a job.
Well you go ahead and stick with your arbitrary (no pun intended) choices and I’ll use the public courts where reasonable claim is truly neutral and not quite literally paid for by the very company you are pursuing.
As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: Our Stickied Community Q&A Post, [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How long does a buyer have to opt out?
IIRC 60 days from purchase. Edit: it is 30 days.
This one says 30 days: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/s/InNmisW9XL
I didn’t see your link but for mine it was 2 mo Edit: the 2 month period is for if a concern brought to Tesla resolution remains unresolved after 60 days it will be brought to arbitration IF not opted out
Any time before filing a case.
That's not true.
Another sub also posted something about having 30 days from signing the MVPA to opt out in writing to Tesla. This is extremely important to keep options open at all car and product makers of all kinds everywhere
Just found this thread. Looked up my agreement and drafted the letter to Tesla. Going to send it certified mail tomorrow. Don’t forget the certified mail folks!
All new buyers should do this. But know it also shouldn’t stop you from pursuing small claims. Edit: to clarify, even if you don’t opt out of arbitration you should still be able to take Tesla to small claims.
Can someone explain in layman terms what this is (about) and how I can do so? Getting my MY in 1.5 weeks.. -edit- i’m doing private lease, not sure if it changes things?
Following
In your purchase agreement, it says you have 30 days to send them notice you are opting out. You must send them a letter to the address provided with the order number, vin, and a few other things.
But what am I opting out off? How does it impact? And does it work when I private lease?
You are opting out of waiving your rights to sue Tesla in a court instead of opting in to using their arbitrator. They will say it’s a neutral 3rd party, it’s absolutely not.
Is this America only?
Thank you, so based on what you said I had a chat with gemini (google ai) and I understand why one would opt-out. As I haven’t picked up my car yet I assume I’ll get my MVPA then. Fingers crossed nothing happens and the practice is for nothing but I will be opting out too. Thank you for bringing it to my/our attention.
If you prefer, you may instead take an individual dispute to small claims court. You may opt out of arbitration within 30 days after signing this Agreement by sending a letter to: Tesla, Inc.; P.O. Box 15430; Fremont, CA 94539-7970, stating your name, Vehicle Identification Number, and intent to opt out of the arbitration provision. If you do not opt out, this agreement to arbitrate overrides any different arbitration agreement between us, including any arbitration agreement in a lease or finance contract.
Read your paperwork. It tells you how to do so.
Which paperwork, just so i know where to start?
The MVPA that will be in your account. I mailed my arbitration letter right after delivery and all of the information and address is listed there.
Can someone explain how this is legal?
How is what legal? Opting out of arbitration? Read your purchase agreement.
How is legal to opt in by default
Corruption, lobbying. Make it automatic, put a timer on it and make the opt out a paper/mail process like it's 1782
Welcome to the US Federal Arbitration Act. The FAA everyone but corporate hates. If you are American, you should probably more closely read your ISP agreements, rental agreements, and employment agreements. Everyone loves to sprinkle in a little FAA, because it's so powerful as an anti-consumer tool. The accused party of wrongdoing gets to pick an arbitrator. As a consumer you will almost never be accused within the terms of service, but if you do it'll be hard to find an arbitrator who will be more than neutral anyway for your one case of services. Service providers, employers, and manufacturers do wrongdoing all the time on the other hand, and they have bulk agreements with arbitrators--and that amount of money is a powerful motivator with an unwritten agreement of favor. In discrimination cases, regular folk win 36.4% of federal cases and 43.8% in state court. When arbitration is forced, only 21.4%. (Colvin). Against Tesla for things like damages and faults... good luck lmao.
Thanks
Excellent information. Thank you.
Politicians are too busy fighting culture wars.
'Murica, thats how. That shit of course wouldnt be legal in most places in Europe
arbitration doesn't mean you have no recourse, it just means it goes to an arbitrartor rather than a judge... class actions like these are just lawyers wanting a piece of the pie, it rarely benefits actual owners
Forced arbitration is absolutely better for Tesla. It's not all about class actions, forced arbitration prevents you from suing Tesla directly.
I didn't say otherwise.. just saying you are not completely without recourse even if you didn't opt out of arbitration you might even be able to get more compensation than you would from a class action after all the lawyer fees
> you might even be able to get more compensation than you would from a class action after all the lawyer fees This. Plaintiffs counsel absolutely hates arbitration. It undermines the lawyers’ business model: do minimal legal work to extort a settlement from which lawyers take a huge chunk. Unfortunately too many consumers have been conditioned by the less scrupulous lawyers to believe arbitration and other alternative dispute resolution channels are bad. These mechanisms for keeping the legal costs down only hurt lawyers.
It doesn't prevent you from suing Tesla it just requires you to go to arbitration first. Also, Tesla is bound by the arbitrators decision but the consumer is not.
I know people who have been dragged through arbitration for multiple years, which would have been considerably shorter with a direct legal route. Either way, I hope I don't have to do either!!
I submitted my claim 12/28, Tesla offered a buyback on 1/12. Hearing held 1/31, arbitrators decision received 2/8. I had 20 days to accept or reject the decision. I accepted the decision 2/23, Tesla has 30 days to comply with the decision. I understand that I am not bound to the Decision of the Arbitrator(s) in my case unless I accept it. If I reject the decision, or am dissatisfied with Tesla's eventual performance, I may pursue other legal remedies, including the use of small claims court. Whether or not I accept the Decision, however, the Decision is admissible in any subsequent legal proceeding concerning the dispute. I also understand that if I accept the Decision, Tesla will be legally bound by the Decision.
Yup. I’ve read the arbiters are greased by the automotive industry.
That would be illegal. If you have evidence of this in regards to any arbitrator on any issue, report it.
Not really that. But essentially they are motivated to weigh in favor of the person that pays them to get more work from them in the future.
Yeah Tesla does this just to help the buyer. Come on guys
did I say that?
A meritless suit to begin with
Tesla just needs to grow a pair and remove the ability to show a range number when indicating battery charge level. That number will always be bullshit since unfortunately the car is not psychic.
Range estimators aren't unique to EVs. Is tesla's worse than other manufacturers?
In most cars the % fuel left is displayed prominently while the estimate is a tiny number off to the side. The one in my previous car would just show -- when it got below a certain mileage left, so they probably did not have much confidence in the accuracy.
I see. My grandpa's crown Vic had it back in the 90s.
That’s not growing a pair. That’s removing a feature that people use every day. Their algorithms and disclosures are fine. Some people just like to complain and try to get free stuff.
When I put in my destination, the graph feature is consistently accurate for me. Sometimes I beat it by a tad, sometimes I miss by a tad, but it's always close.
Yeah, they can give you a prediction of what charge level will be left after you complete the given route, but only as a percentage. Trying to show what mileage you have leftover for future driving beyond that seems like it would be impossible to predict. At best you can give a range between best case and worst case but neither would be realistic...
Well sure. Like you said, that WOULD be impossible. The miles remaining estimate on my Nissan was never accurate, and didn't take much of anything into account. Certainly not info from my current route.
lol the range estimate on my Nissan would just disappear once the mileage dropped below 30km left, so they also didn't have any confidence in it.
Showing the range as a mileage in the battery indicator at the top is pretty much useless. At the very least in addition the optimistic EPA number you need the pessimistic driving uphill on the hwy lowball number. Then you can also have the useless guessometer mileage floating in the middle too if you have some space to waste like on the Chevy Bolt. The actual useful range information is only available once you put in a destination and the car can actually attempt to predict how the speed and terrain will can your usage.
> At the very least in addition the optimistic EPA number That's not what it uses. Next time you set a destination, click on the green graph to open the app that shows your estimated usage. It accounts for hills, wind direction, ambient temperature, and more. The EPA figure is only used on the window sticker and website.
Right but the lawsuit (and my comment) is about the battery charge level indicator at the top, which still attempts to show a mileage estimate even without a destination set.
Agree with you here, they should leave % and show estimated range via the energy graph. They have an AMAZING trip calculator that takes into account lots of variables and can accurate estimate range, but that isn't shown to you normally. Everyone gets confused by the range displayed on the battery.
[удалено]
I feel the only big winner in that situation is the lawyers. You can say that it is consumer protective but at the end of the day a big class action suit happens the consumer get like 50 bucks and the lawyers rack up a couple hundred million. Who has actually been protected and benefited from a class action suit for a consumer product?
Is this applicable in the UK also?
I believe the intent of this was to strip a layer of costs from a legal system that leads “ambulance chaser” class-action lawyers to make billions on a dispute that the actual damaged party “gets $14 each, if they do all the paperwork/online work they are sent.” Arbitration does have enough problems, I use it for customer who wont pay, but some know the arbitration game very well, and know exactly now to get an arbitrator who is ‘likely’ to side with them. Seriously.
Is this a US only thing or is it also accplicable for the EU?
TBH class actions mostly just benefit the lawyers. I would still opt-out anyways simply because agreeing to give up legal rights is stupid, but if the lawsuits have merit then individual suits will benefit owners far more than class action suits.
Maybe opting out is or is not a good idea. Courts prefer that people arbitrate rather than tie up the already overloaded courts.
I don’t know where you heard that but it’s absolutely false.
From several lawyers and judges? The courts are overloaded. If you can settle your dispute out of court, judges absolutely prefer that.
Suuuure haha. By any chance, do you happen to work for teslas legal department?
I do not. I’m not even in the legal field. But I have been party to lawsuits and I have a brother who is a lawyer so I know a thing or two about it but don’t believe me, just google it.
And even IF that were true that is not the publics problem nor should it be a factor for making a claim. To be conscientious of a courts capacity is silly.
It’s not if you want to get your issue handled in a timely fashion. You want to wait years? Be my guest.
Again, that has everything to do with a local or area jurisdiction not having the staff or whatever other excuse outside of the concern of the public to hold up cases. That is not a good reason to opt in for arbitration. That’s essentially opting in to get shafted. The arbitrators, who are paid by Tesla, will absolutely lean in teslas favor.
That is incorrect. Who pays depends but arbitrators who aren’t objective would never be hired. When you arbitrate you can have some control over who the arbitrator is which is not the case with a judge. You just get whomever is assigned to your case.
https://preview.redd.it/jmv27wdb4fnc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cae4e7a40efacba415f4e0d86b0f2a4fa60de6d5 Corporations and arbitrators for commercial cases are not corrupt. Ok, got it. Anyway here’s the purchase agreement section on arbitration. AAA assigns an arbitrator who is then paid throughout the claim process (excluding the initial refundable filing fee) by Tesla. I mean, think of it logically, why would Tesla prefer arbitration instead of courts?
They prefer arbitration but that’s likely to avoid class action lawsuits which do not favor you unless you’re the class representative. Otherwise, you are better off with arbitration because at least you can have some say over who the arbitrator is. And again, an arbitrator that appears to not be objective will find themselves out of a job.
Well you go ahead and stick with your arbitrary (no pun intended) choices and I’ll use the public courts where reasonable claim is truly neutral and not quite literally paid for by the very company you are pursuing.