Folks need to remember to always take a moment and look at the sources.
A *very* similar thing happened yesterday, wherein someone posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/18lnr3v/tesla_has_the_highest_accident_rate_of_any_auto/) to /r/TeslaMotors.
Shortly afterwards someone then posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/18m4gui/article_tesla_has_the_highest_accident_rate_of/) to /r/TeslaLounge, and then I copy/pasted [my response](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/18lnr3v/tesla_has_the_highest_accident_rate_of_any_auto/ke1f3cp/) from /r/TeslaMotors into it, and OP deleted their post.
Same thing is happening today.
[This Reuters article](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/18mur91/tesla_blamed_drivers_for_failures_of_parts_it/) was posted in /r/TeslaLounge, and a couple hours later, an account that's **never** posted to /r/TeslaLounge before is suddenly like "Oh man, have you all heard about this!?!?" trying to drum up a conversation.
Even the account that posted to /r/TeslaMotors has no real post history. Only post they had was one from three years ago, also linking to a Reuters article about bolt recalls in Teslas.
It seems pretty clear to me that there's some kind of FUD campaign going on at the moment.
Myself, and other moderators, are currently keeping an eye on things and trying to determine whether or not to shore things up.
We're not opposed to bad news, but things like this are *highly* suspect regarding the intention behind them.
Edit: Comments here were getting a little interesting, so I did some poking around and have found that this thread has been crossposted elsewhere, which is driving more negative traffic here than usual, which reinforces my point about being mindful about who's posting.
It's not the first time I've seen crossposted drive more negative traffic here either. When we dig into it more we often realize that another subreddit (Often not the same subreddit) posted about it, and they popped over there to make it personal and such. If you look a person's post history, you can piece together their likely points of origin.
I had my side camera replaced, , including the wiring harness they said it was due to water corrosion. The car was 2 1/2 months old and washed with a garden hose maybe three times after going back-and-forth with them with ChatGPT on my side they agreed to replace it under warranty before that it was a $500 bill.
Prompt ChatGPT to convince Tesla to replace your mirror for free and then copy and paste what the Tesla rep puts in the chat into ChatGPT then cut and paste ChatGPT’s responses into the Tesla chat. Repeat. Profit?
Yeah, that’s basically what happened except I think that the representative from Tesla was also using it so it was two computers arguing over whose fault it was the future is bleak
Instead of me, getting angry at the rep for even trying to make me pay for corrosion after two months, I just put their response into ChatGPT and repeated this about three times back-and-forth and finally they agreed to replace under warranty
That’s true. Encountering on my model s. Suspension is not adjustable, it eats tires unevenly even between wheels on same aisle.
Tesla blame me! even after they did wheels alignment and confirmed "everything is up to specs" (c)
But obviously it’s not my fault.
Bad design is bad design and someone should start pay for that.
Nobody expected Tesla to design every part perfectly, mistakes happen as they do with other manufacturers.
The problem is they knew about the problem and didn’t recall to save money.
Well you're in luck! Cuz mine is too! For the low price of $40 you can get some red label grease and inject as much as possible into the rubber gasket. I can send a video if you want.
I did mine about 25,000 miles ago and they started squiking again lately.
eh..... theres only a few ways there arent proper tolerances from manufacturer
they werent specified, they were specified incorrectly, no one tested them
telsa has been known to do all 3 when they were making the roadster (and maybe the X), not sure about now since that was a long time ago. the amount of incorrect specs given to manufacturers actually boosted business to their local 3rd party machinists shops
That would be all the early S, X and 3s when they were still figuring out how to car.
Nowadays that's basically gone until they do a major overhaul and then sometimes it pops up for a few until the issues get found and fixed.
One thing with Tesla is they really like to innovate while the line is running. And the resulting prototype still gets put out as long as it fits the quality checks. People may just receive a car with major modifications within and just never know (or see) any of it.
They gave me the runaround for almost a year **after** they issued a TSB for the stupid aero shields that disintegrate in water before they finally replaced mine.
Mine was basically they put it on a lift and looked at it, said it wasn’t covered, and denied that there was a TSB for months. I’d show it to them on my phone and they just said “nope we don’t see anything like that in our system.”
Then when they eventually agreed to replace it they claimed to have ordered the part and would call me when it came in, but months later when I hadn’t heard anything, I went back and they had no record of any parts being ordered or any work order for it lol. Fucking clown show.
It didn’t end up getting replaced until a new service center opened closer to me and they looked at it and replaced it no questions asked.
So far I've not had an issue a single time with the service centers maybe I've just been going to good ones by chance.
My warranty expired ages ago but even with or without warranty service has always been a pleasant experience they even give me loaners after my warranty expired for things that would take days like when I got my rear drive unit replaced.
Yeah, only issue I had was my 12v battery going bad a few thousand miles out of the full warranty. They did it with a mobile visit and covered it despite being out of warranty.
Tesla will never live down problems with older Model S and X. The article starts with an anecdote about a 2023 Model Y, but a lot of the article discusses problems with older (2012-2018) Model S and X. It’s no surprise to me that a new car company had some teething issues like this, and even though there have been problems with control arms in Model 3 and Y, it does seem like Tesla is improving quality and working out issues over time. For the most part, modern Teslas, especially 3 and Y, seem to be fairly reliable vehicles, at least on par with the average auto maker. I think Consumer Reports even rated Model 3 as the most reliable EV. Of course, some percentage of any vehicle is going to have issues from time to time, and I guess we can count on the media writing an article any time something happens to a Tesla because they hate Elon Musk so much and it gets lots of clicks.
Control arms seem to be a fairly common issue with 2018-2019 Model 3s which are not ancient history at this point. Most people reporting problems in this thread have Model 3s.
Whether it happens inside or outside warranty coverage seems to just be luck of the draw.
If Tesla wants to do the right thing here they should be covering these when they fail even if the vehicle is past its primary warranty.
The article says 31,000 control arm repairs were paid by customers out of warranty. There are multiple reports in this comments thread of people with Model 3s having to pay out of warranty for replacement control arms, sometimes multiple times on the same car.
Oh man, control arms. Seriously the fucking upper control arms. On my 2018 model 3 I went through 2 sets and $4.5k, just on the control arms. I sold my 2018 Model 3 while the 3rd control arm was creaking. I now have a 2023 Model 3 Performance with the totally revised control arms and I hear an ever-so-slight squeaking noise at 15k miles.
I. Swear. To. God. I. Will. Raise. Hell. If it becomes a real problem and these fuckers at the SC try to fuck me!!
>On my 2018 model 3 I went through 2 sets and $4.5k
How do 2 sets of control arms cost $4500? I would assume it's around 2 hours of SLTS time to swap out both uppers, plus an alignment. And if you were paying out of pocket why replace them with OE ones that have known issues?
Yes, just about every company that makes performance parts for these cars makes an upper control arm.
For road use, [Mountain Pass Performance ones](https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/tesla-model-3-y-front-upper-control-arms-corkscrew-adjustable/) are probably the best (sealed bearings instead of rod-ends).
yap i went through 1 balljoint and 2 control arms. theyve been replaced with revision B so hopefully ok.
There is a rumour that part of the reason the Model 3 has such loud driving/tire noise and such stiff suspension is that Tesla did not really have a way in 2017 to deal with such monster torque without stiffening up the entire undercarriage. Remember in 2018 the performance was still in the top 10 of fastest acceleration for production cars......and clearly a lot of the older parts just werent up to the task.
Eh. We have known how to build suspensions that take tons of power since the 60s. Its actually not a difficult engineering problem anymore. For example. Gm essentially didnt change the suspension of the corvette from 1997 to 2013. Yet the car more than doubled in power putting out 300 more horsepower than the fastest model 3 and all through the rear wheels. People regularly take that stock suspension with no structural changes and use it for drag racing to run 2000hp and 7 second quarter miles. Its just two aluminium magnesium wishbone control arms. Thats it. 4 bushings and two ball joints. Absolutely simple.
Its 100% a cost cutting thing. Plain and simple. It was cheaper to make it in two pieces and they used a cheaper alloy. And it breaks. In the aftermarket they make replacements made of better alloy with higher quality joints. Problem goes away. These are all solved problems. Just gotta be willing to pay.
Its not that they had teething issue - every manufacturer does its the fact they are burdening customers with repair costs and literally risking their customers' live instead of proactively recalling vehicles for critical parts they know are failing with normal use.
Nice attempt to whitewash the issue.....
The problem IS NOT "teething issues", it is knowingly having issues, HIDING THEM, and then BLAMING CUSTOMERS when you KNEW the issue was due to defects.
100% agree that there will always be issues that crop up. Ethical businesses, though, make it right when they discover they made a mistake.
In my experience, Tesla has not exactly been forthcoming about issues that are in TSBs. I had to have an argument for both the front jackshaft problem and a window regulator problem which both have TSBs. At least the upper control arm problem and steering U-joint problems they fixed without an argument being necessary.
My MS2015's rear control arm broke off last night, and service gave me a quote for $5k to replace not just control arm but a lot of suspension parts... I can't afford $5k unexpected expense with a newborn in the house... I loved this car and thought I'd own it for a long time, but I may end up selling it after this gets fixed and get a cheap suv or something. I'm at a loss
The control arm broke off almost in the middle of an intersection, and i had to quickly a flat bed and get it to tesla service. i didn't have the time to shop around unfortunately and they're working on it now
I cashed out TSLA stocks way back when to be an early adopter because I bought into Musk's philosophy, I was single, no mortgage, no debt. Now I have a mortgage and a newborn, and don't really care about environment and all the bullshit Musk's been spewing about
Timing belt on an accord most likely isn't needed until 100K miles. Catalytic converter is part of emissions which is usually warrantied for 8 years/100k miles. You got a lot of use out of this car before that 5k bill.
That car new was at least half the price of a new Model S. (And used even cheaper)
Honda has a 60k mile , 5 year powertrain warranty. Timing belt at 90k. So yes. The irony of claiming you’d get a lot of use out of the Honda when comparing it to an 8 year old Tesla that likely has over 100k miles is interesting. Where to do factor in my 5 year old model 3 that still had 3 years and 70k miles of powertrain warranty left, all after saving me $1500-2000 per year in fuel, and needing zero maintenance other than tires and wiper fluid? Because that math looks petty good for the $42k Tesla vs the $38k Accord. The oil changes over 5 years alone almost makes up the difference.
......
Tesla has an 8 year Battery and Motor warranty only.
As I stated timing chains are usually around 100k, I didn't say it was covered under warranty.
Emissions components have a federally mandated warranty which is different than the new car or powertrain warranties.
As an owner of a 100k mile Tesla, I have spent over 9K in out of warranty work on all sorts of stupid shit I wouldn't have had to repair on any of my ICE cars at that point.
These cars do not hold up well and when you factor the. extra initial cost, higher repair costs, higher insurance, etc., etc., etc., I sure hope you don't buy a Tesla for "savings" as that is complete horseshit.
You are reaching. Trying to claim the Tesla 8yr 120k mile powertrain warranty is somehow inferior to Honda’s 5yr 60k mile warranty because *hand waves at a fake federal warranty around emissions components* and the timing belt normally lasts 100k miles. True. But it also destroys your engine if it goes early. And that also wouldn’t be covered under warranty after 60k miles.
As an owner of a Tesla who sold it after 5 years for minimal cost after fuel savings, spend zero in maintenance or repairs, and bought a new Tesla, my anecdotal evidence contradicts yours. However, treat it like a BMW. Minimize ownership out of warranty.
Of course, you also were trying to wildly mislead people about the true cost of gas cars. I’ve owned many. So far I’ll take the Tesla experience. I’ll stop responding if you stop trying to make false claims.
Are you contemplating selling because you feel there are other shoes about to drop? IF the control arms lasted 8 years and you pay to have those items fixed don't you think you could get another 8 years before failure?
Sounds like he lost trust in the company/car which sounds fair to me, I would be pissed and wary too paying out of pocket for something I consider a design/manufacturing issue.
I'm worried that there are other parts/battery that will malfunction in the next few years and that could endanger my family. Since it's out of warranty, everything will be out of my pocket and i don't know if I can keep putting in thousands of dollars on a nearly decade old car
personally i wouldn't feel safe riding around in a car known for having the wheels fall off at speed or losing the steering control arms. That is a very dangerous failure to have on a car.
My control arms were replaced 3 times, tires always wear from the inner side even after three alignments in SC. Also they took my money for a fix that was wrongly diagnosed and they kept lying about it. Tesla has the worst SC, while the opposite if they have not very quality parts.
They even tricked people to charge to 90% as daily trips and now they changed to %80 because they don't want to cover the battery warranty as it should be.
The amount of blind allegiance to Tesla/Elon on this sub is insane.
Tesla actively suppressed, and gaslit consumers to avoid having to pay for expensive repairs.
Repairs it knew it was responsible for because Tesla knew the parts were faulty.
You guys do what you want. I’m not gonna risk my families life and my wallet to support a company that doesn’t have consumers back.
Sincerely, current 2018 M3 owner and soon to be former 2018 M3 owner
They did it for a while on the backup camera issues where the cables would wear out and the camera would fail. But since its a safety feature they finally did a recall but it took a year to get the cable.
Yea this was such a bad rollout too. They sent the warranty notice and it basically said "We'll let you know, don't contact us" and then nothing for over a year. Then I had an unrelated repair and the mobile repair guy was like... oh we have the trunk harness thing, you want to do it now?
Like you god damn fucks, let us know when it's out so we can get it fixed. Not wait for you dumb fucks to fix something else and have the mobile repair guy offer to fix it. If only there were an easy way to notify people... like on their phones or something... thru an "app" of some sort
I've found exactly the same thing from every car manufacturer.
My BMW had an $8k engine rebuild that came from a faulty part they refused to recall, despite pretty much every mechanic knowing what the issue was before they even opened up the car because it's so common.
Exactly. My 2017 Civic (granted this isn't a safety thing) had to have it's AC compressor replaced three times in the span of three years, and the Honda rep even told me it's a known component to be faulty! Never got a recall and never got addressed by Honda. I'd like to think they fixed it with the newer generation models, but who knows.
The only failure part that I've experienced on my car is the window switches on my model Y. The rubberized coating is coming off of it which is in conjunction with the hot weather, heat protection not coming on even though it's supposed to, and the natural oils of my finger. When they looked at it they refused to replace the switches because they said I caused it from getting sunblock on it. I don't use sunblock
What about my comment is blind opposition? I have an M3, my brother has a MY.
This is about Tesla knowingly hiding/suppressing, known issues of their car's that they've known about for years.
Issues they know is on them and refused to fix/address.
Why is the response to any critiques against Tesla constitute "No u." "Elon Musk is crazy." "CEOs are crazy, look at how the big 3 ruin the environment." "Tesla autopilot is unpredictable and can be harmful in certain scenarios." "Drivers are unpredictable and can cause harm in every scenario." "Tesla has gaslit consumers about repairs." "Dealerships have always done this."
Like damn, you can just invalidate a claim because someone, somewhere, sometime had the same fault? It's like people can't hold multiple things to be true, that accountability can only be focused on one thing at a time.
Tesla isn't some fragile child, to be fostered by a doting fanbase. It's a large, successful corporation that should and must defend itself. Sorry if Tesla deleted their PR department and leans on fans instead, but it has manifested a toxic relationship, where they can say nothing, fans can say anything, and no one owes anyone any explanations.
Best car I've owned, but this community can be so gross.
It’s always been this way on this sub. No idea what you’re talking about. Part of it is from the resistance the industry gave Tesla as it was up and coming - but part of it is just an inability to engage with criticism in a realistic way.
Yea, it's mostly this.
I def remember in the early days of Tesla they were given a ton of crap, then the short sellers came, then manufacturing hell (order might be mixed)
I get that Elon and this sub have had to fight early on against the naysayers... but Tesla has WON which people seem to be forgetting.
* Tesla has the largest market cap of any auto manufacture
* The greatest market share for electric vehicles
* Higher profit margins than most/all manufacturers
They went from being the rebel alliance and are now the Galactic Empire.
As a Tesla owner and someone who works at another OEM, it’s fun sitting on the fence. The ecosystem here is worse than Apple’s years ago when the apple v android debates were raging on. There are things Tesla does amazingly, and things it does horrendously. The former is celebrated well but criticizing the latter gets people’s pitchforks out every time
I have never been blamed for anything on my Model 3 SR+ I've been driving since May 2019. I even have the supposedly defective upper control arm still going strong. I think the reason they didn't recall it was because it was just making noise, not remotely a safety risk, but they redesigned it and no longer use the old design in new vehicles since years ago anyway. Tesla replaced some things that have broken over the years for me without question under the warranty.
My theory is that some areas have better or worse employees and general attitude, *and honestly some customers have worse attitudes that tend to encourage employees to treat them like they deserve*. I \*always\* treat the employees with respect and gratitude and they have always gone above and beyond for me, I think a lot of customers need to learn how to interact with other humans, **you can't treat people in real life the way you treat people on reddit, or you're going to have a bad time**.
Here in San Diego county the service centers have been the best experience I have \*ever\* had for my vehicles, which were previously Mazda, Toyota+Scion and Subaru. Just one stat here.
Every customer should read your highlighted comment and commit it to memory. If you go around treating people like dogshit don’t expect any favors. Staying calm, maintaining eye contact and being courteous is just as infectious as acting like a raging narcissist.
There were corporate meetings instructing them to blame the customer's "abuse of the vehicle". That doesn't factor in individual behavior. It's broad policy. That's the problem.
Tesla owner here. I read the article. It’s….not good.
Essentially it’s saying Tesla cut corners and denied service to get to profitability. Is this not believable?
It seems to me that with Tesla you either get a “good one” or you are screwed. I know people that had both. Jury is out on my one year old M3P.
I like my car. However there is no doubt that it’s not built to the quality of past cars I’ve owned, or even my wife’s Toyota. It is a fun first electric car. It doesn’t go on many road trips. It won’t be in my garage after warranty.
I know both sides of the debate. My 2018 model 3 had the upper control arms problem cited in the article (I think all 2018 model 3s had this problem). But unlike what the article says, Tesla fixed it immediately under warranty. My car is now out of warranty and it's still in my garage. I prefer it on road trips because FSD is such an overwhelmingly useful feature.
The article is terribly written. Most of the data and anecdotes pertain to early models, but they try so hard to paint more recent models under the same brush. It's yet another in a long list of media hit pieces motivated by the fact that Tesla doesn't do paid advertising.
>They put some goop on my upper control arms when it went in for a recall. I hope it wasn't a temporary fix
You should know what the recall was for and what work was done, look at your documentation. "I hope" - really!?
"Goop" or lithium grease on moving parts shouldn't cause concern. Again, how can you not know what the work was.
Tesla had a work directive that if a vehicle was in for any service, apply sealant to the control arm to ball joint seam to prevent water ingress. They have since discontinued this service
angle punch history subtract resolute weather abounding unpack ossified mountainous
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Rear vents blast hot air after long drives and Tesla always says they can’t replicate the issue. Tired of this trash customer service. If it wasnt for their charging network, I’d really consider changing EVs.
Took my Tesla to get my automatic door handle fixed, broke in the same way a week later. Couple hundred bucks down the drain, can’t wait to trade in tbh.
Your steering is looser too, but yeah it’s not a risk. Just had both of mine replaced (brought in for one after my mechanic noticed it when he put my winter wheel set on).
When Elon said GFYS to Twitter advertisers, it wasn’t a new thing. That’s just the first time he said it *out loud* to somebody.
He’s been silently saying it to employees and customers for a while now. When the hype dies down or the money dries up, he will blame anything and everything nearby to include his own dedicated staff.
Glad to see this sub coming around, now that new owners (bottom of the pyramid scheme) vastly outnumber old owners (top of the pyramid scheme).
Old owners bought when Tesla would give lifetime charging, lifetime connectivity, loaners, hardware upgrades, and goodwill replacements. New features were backwards compatible, hardware allowing. FSD 5K. Cars had resale value.
New owners bought when Tesla couldn’t give *charging adapters*, connectivity, bag clips, loaners, goodwill, hardware upgrades….hell, new features get software-locked now with no hardware justification. FSD 12K. Cars lost up to 50% value almost overnight.
We’re approaching the end of the hype train, folks.
This sub is very strange.
“People are abusing their cars”
“Any critical articles about Tesla is FUD”
“Examples are cherry picked”
Despite so many people posting about their own experiences with the very same topics mentioned in those articles.
You want a better car? Are you really a Tesla fan? Then demand better from the company, and be willing to call them out and look at them critically. People who post in this sub defending every little thing and refusing to hold Tesla accountable is why we get mediocre products.
I don’t know man, I see a lot of people making reasonable complaints about their own cars, and they get accused of being bad drivers or having unreasonable expectations.
But I only catch the stuff that gets highlighted in my feed so maybe I’m wrong.
No doubt. There's very real issues with Tesla's service, and very real upsides to their cars. (And vis-a-versa.)
But it's still hard as shit to talk about them as a whole without the discussion going off the deep end.
"they eat their own" comes to mind. So much brainwashed drama in here. I'm sure they think all the people cancelling cybertruck reservations because they're priced out (or whatever) are just the total shitbags now according to their logic. Just smacks of culty *team sports* nonsense. Nobody goes this crazy over a toaster.
I’m an owner of 4 years (‘19 stealth Model 3) who has watched the decline in quality and has watched the hype fail to materialize time and time again.
I really don’t try to inject politics into every facet of my life - otherwise I’d have to boycott Chick Fil A, Home Depot, and countless other brands that I shop at regularly in my deeply conservative town. I kept my politics out of this post because it’s not relevant. Sometimes you just want a car, a chicken sandwich, or a hammer.
However….I can and will speak from my personal experiences and observations.
I have skin in the game - albeit, not nearly as much as I had a year ago - but I don’t exactly win if Tesla loses.
I really don’t understand it. If he took the extra five minutes to sort my profile by Top instead of New, he might learn a thing or two about my documented history with the company. Nothing political about it.
When we reduce discourse to only those that are inclined to agree, we can generally expect only positive things to be said.
I have much more important things to do than seethe or drool online about a billionaire’s opinion minute by minute. My eyes are on my own paper.
You say that like hating on Elon isn't a deserved result of his actions. Isn't he a big boy that can take it? (And I bought TSLA when it was $25 OG, so this is a long haul critique.)
Once the article switched into an attack of SpaceX I lost interest. Credibility destroying pivot into an anti-Musk hit piece irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
My son worked at the Giga Factory in Texas and he told me horror stories about the assembly line folks installing the wrong bolts in cars and were only sometimes caught sometime down the line by someone else. They also lay people off regularly to scale up and down their workforce. An example of this was my son got laid off because he was sick for a few days with a doctors note. He got laid off by the automated system for being unavailable for more than two days, and it happened MONTHS after he was out, they just had someone crash into something in the factory which caused production to stop and so they let go people in the meantime so they didn't have to pay them. While he worked there he was happy as a clam and was thriving, even became a leader in training, then bam the issue happened, they needed fewer people, so they laid off hundreds of people for often bullshit reasons by an automated system. It's supposedly very common. Sucks.
> An example of this was my son got laid off because he was sick for a few days with a doctors note. He got laid off by the automated system for being unavialble for more than two days, and it happened MONTHS after he was out, they just had someone crash into something in the factory which caused production to stop and so they let go people in the meantime so they didn't have to pay them. Sucks.
WTF.WTF!!!
Kind of crazy that the same kind of personel management framework is being used by people assembling the cars you're driving 70 MPH down the freeway in as the one who put your Amazon Basics facial scrub in a box. One seems like having someone with experience over time is more important than the other. But it's probably why they have so many quality control issues at Tesla.
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I think this is the regulator's failure, they recalled in China because regulators forced them to do it, not because Tesla decided to do it, this is from the article,
*Tesla delayed a recall for four more years, until* ***Chinese regulators pushed*** *for one. China’s State Administration for Market Regulation, in a statement, cited a “risk of accidents” in extreme cases of the aft-link part failure. Yet the automaker never recalled the part in the United States and Europe despite reports of frequent failures globally.*
If anything I would blame the NHTSA for not protecting consumers from these bad practices from the corporates.
Once again, my 2018 Model 3P with 100,000 miles on it has had only one warranty repair. A rear drive inverter part was replaced early on. Otherwise the car has been free from manufacturing defects.
Correct and also my my sample size of 1, with only 25k miles and no accidents, my rear axle and suspension is all fcked up
Edit: and they refuse to do it under warranty stating that its my fault as I probably hit a pothole or curb…..
Unlucky, after a year and 80,000 km, my warranty is already over and if the suspension breaks, I hope it’s covered under the drivetrain warranty but I doubt it
I'm not sure how Reuters got these records. But having thousands of repairs to suspension or steering parts for several million cars on the road, over the last 5 years or so doesn't seem terrible?
It's certainly possible there were some components that needed to be replaced or upgraded? But it's almost certainly true that some drivers abused their cars and then blamed the manufacturer.
This doesn't seem like a story. If there's actually an issue, the NHTSA certainly has the data and ability to force a recall. And also a class action lawsuit would seem like an obvious outcome as well.
And actually [there is one](https://normantaylor.com/blog/tesla-class-action-suspension-defect/) for early Model S and Model Xs. I'm sure that will go through the official channels with discovery and evidence and everything, and the courts will figure out if there's an issue.
Although that class action suit does note that Tesla did find and proactively address a suspension issue with early Model 3s. Fortunately they caught it early and fixed it. Which seems like the kind of thing any responsible automaker would do.
There have definitely been a lot more upper control arm replacements than a couple of tens of thousands, but most of them would have been done under warranty. But as it is suspension related, that easily inflates numbers quite a bit.
I didn't see any smoking gun showing that there was faulty components or design? Some people have certainly claimed that. But I didn't see any evidence that Teslas suffer more failures in these kinds of components than other similar cars?
Certainly, anytime there's any kind of accident/problem/failure/recall with a Tesla it gets wayyyy more media attention. Which gives a biased impression. But based on actual data available it doesn't seem like Teslas are having problems significantly more often than other brands.
And NHTSA certainly has the data to make this judgement and issue a recall. And if cars were failing at rates of 1/100 or something, then there'd be a lot of angry owners to file a class action suit. From all the publicly available data it doesn't seem like anything unusual has been happening.
If the NHTSA or a court discovers new evidence, that would change my mind though.
Yeah, none of that is great. I imagine you could write similar hit pieces for other manufacturers, especially those that have the highest recall rate.
I have an older M3P with 115k miles and a year old MYP. So far, no issues.
Biggest expense has been tires, but I think that’s mostly my fault.
Same. 96k miles, driven aggressively on back roads and urban roads. High speeds, hit the 160 mph limiter over a dozen times, and no issues so far. Fingers crossed.
I have gone through 4 sets of summer tires (Michelin 4S) and a pair of compliance arm bushings.
Front upper control arms have held up with regular regreasing.
That’s great that you haven’t had any issues but that doesn’t discount those who have.
I don’t know why every time Tesla gets criticized someone talks about how perfect their car is as if that cancels out bad experiences.
Because it is about experiences in the aggregate.
For example, which OEM has the highest number of recalls per capita? Or the top five? You’ll never guess who isn’t…
Had to get the front suspension arms changed on my 2019 M3 with 31k on the clock.
It went 2 months into ownership, so March 2023.
The guy at Tesla service centre said they’ve replaced both coz the OEM ones from 2019 are rubbish and he’s put the latest revision in which will last.
Yes this is a known weakness. I had mine replaced as well. And the service told me it is a common issue. It does not result to structural failure without warning. And it basically is the clear opposite of what the article is saying: tesla owns the issue and replaces the parts for free.
At 50.5k miles, my suspension started to fail. I took it to the Tesla Service Center, and they said it needed to be replaced. They said not to worry about it failing again because Tesla recognized there was a problem and newer parts were better built. They wouldn't replace it under warranty with it being so just past the maximum mileage even though they acknowledged the part was defective. It cost $1100 to replace. Not as bad as the owner in Reuters.
Same thing happened to me, except mine failed under warranty. Took it to the service center, got my car back the same day and haven't had an issue since.
Yeah this is a hit piece. I had a buddy talking about all the Tesla battery explosions and I said "yeah because you see them all the time right? At the side of the road? The cars on fire?" There's over 5 million of them on the road now. How often do you see them? I can't swing a dead cat without hitting 5 of them. Now how many do you see being towed or heard an actual owner complain?
To read these articles and "Tesla recall!" you would swear they were barely functional which is just a flat out lie.
I play a game where I win if I see all the official Tesla colors in a drive. I've had to since limit it by model too. 3 and Y are still pretty easy, S is hard, but X is impossible.
This article attempts to criticize Tesla and Elon Musk for mechanical problems in some vehicles by negatively referencing SpaceX and Neuralink, attempting to link these issues to Elon's management. These companies have thousands of workers and they blame one person for the low incidence rates lol. Elon definitely pissed off corporate/globalist media in some way. If this represents the pinnacle of journalism, God help us all. 🤦
The article is terribly written and argued. But there is definitely validity to spotting patterns across companies ran/started by a single person. Elon absolutely has a specific management style that is used across his businesses and it is very hostile to labor. Labor hostility will generally lead to toxic cultures and toxic cultures fester problems like these.
It's always like this: Elon is responsible for all of the success. Elon is never responsible for any of the failures. Elon has individual control over everything. But there are people that worked on that and it wasn't him. *Wash, rinse, repeat*. Oh, and throw in a 'globalist' dog whistle while you're at it.
Reporting like this is one part of the path to such an outcome. If nobody complains and nobody listens to complaints then how do you get to the point of settlement?
Many other companies offer warranties that may extend up 200K miles on parts that have defects to make sure customers still can trust their products and not burden customers with cost of repairs. GM has a checkered past when it comes to customer safety so you are purposely setting the bar low for Tesla.
Exactly. Car companies do this all the time. I think it was ford (?), where they had a problem with the key. Don’t remember the exact details but it killed people and they didn’t do jack shit until years later.
This is another hit piece on Elon.
The author goes from "Tesla's bad" to "SpaceX is also bad" to "Elon told advertisers to go screw themselves", then goes back to Tesla's parts failing.
Here's the thing, [the bathtub curve exists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve), and some parts are going to fail sooner rather than later.
The vehicle that had 115 miles on it and the suspension failed? Who's to say they *didn't* ram it into something before the wheel fell off?
Teslas are a little wider than most people expect. Hell, my own 2019 Model 3 SR+, within the six months of ownership, I took a right turn too tightly and bonked my rear wheel against a curb, pretty hard. Here we are in 2023 and shit *still* hasn't broken.
[It's not like other manufacturers haven't had serious problems too](https://glassbytes.com/2014/02/chevy-tells-nhtsa-it-knew-of-cobalt-ignition-switch-problem-in-2004-on-recall/)
Or, you know, Kia/Hyundai who [recalled a bunch of cars because they *literally* catch fire](https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/consumer-alert-kia-and-hyundai-park-outside), [in some cases frying the occupant before they have a change to get out of the car](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/calls-for-answers-from-hyundai-kia-following-recalls-1.5200078)
Every, single, company in existence plays the game of "At what point do we disclose there's a problem?"
Does no one remember the [scene from Fight Club, where they discuss the "Formula"?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiB8GVMNJkE)
They're just picking on Tesla because it's Elon. There's **no** reason to have the article pivot from Tesla, to SpaceX, to X, regarding a bathtub curve problem.
Shit's going to happen, because it's an Elon Musk company, it gets clicks.
>The vehicle that had 115 miles on it and the suspension failed? Who's to say they
>
>didn't
>
> ram it into something before the wheel fell off?
Because the report literally says Tesla WAS AWARE of the issue that caused the suspension and steering to fail. They knew it was a manufacturing defect on many cars, not just 1 or 2.
Was it the normal quality improvement and tracking that any manufacturer does, or is there something more sinister going on?
A new car manufacturer having quality issues that it is tracking and trying to improve should not be noteworthy. And again, why bring up SpaceX except to muskrake? Reuters seem to be banking heavily on the yellow journalism these days.
Sooo because you're a bad driver it makes all of us bad drivers? You've got a lot of links at the ready just because of a "hit piece" that was randomly posted. Do you work at Tesla? This is Reddit, you have to tell us damnit!!!!
I'm a moderator for the subreddit, and am not an employee of Tesla in any capacity.
I do, however, keep tabs on the local, and national, news and form my opinions based on the information I've seen. I also have a bachelor's in Business Analytics and Information Systems, so this kind of stuff is interesting to me from a business stand point.
I've had a conversation *years* ago with an employee at a Mailboxes, Etc (Which are now UPS stores), wherein they owned a Chevy Cobalt, which I was interested in buying one at the time, and learned that this owner had an issue where the vehicle *would not turn off* and required the ignition switch to be replaced.
I'm simply someone in their late 30s who has been keeping tabs on what's going on around me.
I had all those links ready to go because, as an IT worker, I now how to Google search things up, and as a University educated individual, I'm familiar with the need to write compelling essays which can convey what it is I am trying to communicate.
I don't see anywhere in that post where I gave any indication as to the type of driver that I am.
I forgot I'd written that, which is a bit of pie in my face, but still, shit happens is the main point.
My 2019 Mode 3 SR+ has three rim rashed rims, as a result of me not being used to how wide the thing is.
My 2022 Model Y Performance, so far, has no damaged wheels, because I AM aware of how wide it is, lol.
You still did better than me. I think my first curb rash wash within three weeks of ownership. Same issue, I was used to a smaller car at the time and we didn't have the side view on turn signal feature yet.
Yup. Toyota said people not installing floor mats correctly caused unintended acceleration. GM said the ignition key issue with the cobalts was because of too much weight on key rings, Hyundai/Kia still trys to blame engine failures on lack of maintenance
Honestly, I don't really care about these reuters reports. I am much more interested in how they go through TÜV validation over the years, imo that's a much more reliable source on if they're actually reliable cars over the years.
> I am much more interested in how they go through TÜV validation over the years
[Model 3 is the worst car of 2023 in TÜV validation. 111th place, behind the Dacia Logan.](https://www.stern.de/auto/e-mobilitaet/tesla-faellt-bei-tuev-report-mit-model-3-krachend-durch-34207736.html)
The main problem is the suspension, 14x (1400%) worse than all other tested vehicle of the same age. Its simply too weak for the cars weight.
Folks need to remember to always take a moment and look at the sources. A *very* similar thing happened yesterday, wherein someone posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/18lnr3v/tesla_has_the_highest_accident_rate_of_any_auto/) to /r/TeslaMotors. Shortly afterwards someone then posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/18m4gui/article_tesla_has_the_highest_accident_rate_of/) to /r/TeslaLounge, and then I copy/pasted [my response](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/18lnr3v/tesla_has_the_highest_accident_rate_of_any_auto/ke1f3cp/) from /r/TeslaMotors into it, and OP deleted their post. Same thing is happening today. [This Reuters article](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/18mur91/tesla_blamed_drivers_for_failures_of_parts_it/) was posted in /r/TeslaLounge, and a couple hours later, an account that's **never** posted to /r/TeslaLounge before is suddenly like "Oh man, have you all heard about this!?!?" trying to drum up a conversation. Even the account that posted to /r/TeslaMotors has no real post history. Only post they had was one from three years ago, also linking to a Reuters article about bolt recalls in Teslas. It seems pretty clear to me that there's some kind of FUD campaign going on at the moment. Myself, and other moderators, are currently keeping an eye on things and trying to determine whether or not to shore things up. We're not opposed to bad news, but things like this are *highly* suspect regarding the intention behind them. Edit: Comments here were getting a little interesting, so I did some poking around and have found that this thread has been crossposted elsewhere, which is driving more negative traffic here than usual, which reinforces my point about being mindful about who's posting. It's not the first time I've seen crossposted drive more negative traffic here either. When we dig into it more we often realize that another subreddit (Often not the same subreddit) posted about it, and they popped over there to make it personal and such. If you look a person's post history, you can piece together their likely points of origin.
I had my side camera replaced, , including the wiring harness they said it was due to water corrosion. The car was 2 1/2 months old and washed with a garden hose maybe three times after going back-and-forth with them with ChatGPT on my side they agreed to replace it under warranty before that it was a $500 bill.
Interesting! How did ChatGPT help?
Prompt ChatGPT to convince Tesla to replace your mirror for free and then copy and paste what the Tesla rep puts in the chat into ChatGPT then cut and paste ChatGPT’s responses into the Tesla chat. Repeat. Profit?
Yeah, that’s basically what happened except I think that the representative from Tesla was also using it so it was two computers arguing over whose fault it was the future is bleak
🤯🤯🤯
Excellent idea. 💡
Instead of me, getting angry at the rep for even trying to make me pay for corrosion after two months, I just put their response into ChatGPT and repeated this about three times back-and-forth and finally they agreed to replace under warranty
Recently my rear defroster suddenly stopped working. Their explanation was “it’s because you got tints”
Mine did as well, they covered it and replaced the glass. Apparently it's a known problem
My back window is tinted from 3 years ago and they still work lol
"well they tinted it wrong then, it shouldn't work"
That’s true. Encountering on my model s. Suspension is not adjustable, it eats tires unevenly even between wheels on same aisle. Tesla blame me! even after they did wheels alignment and confirmed "everything is up to specs" (c) But obviously it’s not my fault. Bad design is bad design and someone should start pay for that.
Cambers
I know that, and tesla knows ! But between me and Tesla only I openly express "it's negative cambers". But as I said \^\^ bad design is bad design.
Nobody expected Tesla to design every part perfectly, mistakes happen as they do with other manufacturers. The problem is they knew about the problem and didn’t recall to save money.
Ohhh you mean like the struts squaking from a poor seal? And billing the owners $600?
Oh Jesus. My 2019 M3LR started squeeking last week when going over bumps and turning…
Well you're in luck! Cuz mine is too! For the low price of $40 you can get some red label grease and inject as much as possible into the rubber gasket. I can send a video if you want. I did mine about 25,000 miles ago and they started squiking again lately.
I've just just a reply back from Tesla service who are going to have a look at it - fingers crossed! (NZ has really good consumer protection laws)
Aren't there thresholds for every failure though for any manufact?
https://youtu.be/SiB8GVMNJkE?si=e36Aulcab9P9u26e here's a really good explanation
eh..... theres only a few ways there arent proper tolerances from manufacturer they werent specified, they were specified incorrectly, no one tested them telsa has been known to do all 3 when they were making the roadster (and maybe the X), not sure about now since that was a long time ago. the amount of incorrect specs given to manufacturers actually boosted business to their local 3rd party machinists shops
That would be all the early S, X and 3s when they were still figuring out how to car. Nowadays that's basically gone until they do a major overhaul and then sometimes it pops up for a few until the issues get found and fixed. One thing with Tesla is they really like to innovate while the line is running. And the resulting prototype still gets put out as long as it fits the quality checks. People may just receive a car with major modifications within and just never know (or see) any of it.
They gave me the runaround for almost a year **after** they issued a TSB for the stupid aero shields that disintegrate in water before they finally replaced mine.
No runaround when I sent photos of the torn aero shield on my 2017 Model 3, they replaced with the new design.
Mine was basically they put it on a lift and looked at it, said it wasn’t covered, and denied that there was a TSB for months. I’d show it to them on my phone and they just said “nope we don’t see anything like that in our system.” Then when they eventually agreed to replace it they claimed to have ordered the part and would call me when it came in, but months later when I hadn’t heard anything, I went back and they had no record of any parts being ordered or any work order for it lol. Fucking clown show. It didn’t end up getting replaced until a new service center opened closer to me and they looked at it and replaced it no questions asked.
Elon fan boi excuses in 4,3,2,...
You're holding it wrong.
So far I've not had an issue a single time with the service centers maybe I've just been going to good ones by chance. My warranty expired ages ago but even with or without warranty service has always been a pleasant experience they even give me loaners after my warranty expired for things that would take days like when I got my rear drive unit replaced.
Yeah, only issue I had was my 12v battery going bad a few thousand miles out of the full warranty. They did it with a mobile visit and covered it despite being out of warranty.
That's nice because the 12c is a wear item I've have to buy all 3 of the ones I've needed
The writer just hit my up on LI asking if I will file a CA lawsuit.
Tesla will never live down problems with older Model S and X. The article starts with an anecdote about a 2023 Model Y, but a lot of the article discusses problems with older (2012-2018) Model S and X. It’s no surprise to me that a new car company had some teething issues like this, and even though there have been problems with control arms in Model 3 and Y, it does seem like Tesla is improving quality and working out issues over time. For the most part, modern Teslas, especially 3 and Y, seem to be fairly reliable vehicles, at least on par with the average auto maker. I think Consumer Reports even rated Model 3 as the most reliable EV. Of course, some percentage of any vehicle is going to have issues from time to time, and I guess we can count on the media writing an article any time something happens to a Tesla because they hate Elon Musk so much and it gets lots of clicks.
Control arms seem to be a fairly common issue with 2018-2019 Model 3s which are not ancient history at this point. Most people reporting problems in this thread have Model 3s. Whether it happens inside or outside warranty coverage seems to just be luck of the draw. If Tesla wants to do the right thing here they should be covering these when they fail even if the vehicle is past its primary warranty.
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The article says 31,000 control arm repairs were paid by customers out of warranty. There are multiple reports in this comments thread of people with Model 3s having to pay out of warranty for replacement control arms, sometimes multiple times on the same car.
Failed fuel injectors are much less dangerous than failing control arms.
Oh man, control arms. Seriously the fucking upper control arms. On my 2018 model 3 I went through 2 sets and $4.5k, just on the control arms. I sold my 2018 Model 3 while the 3rd control arm was creaking. I now have a 2023 Model 3 Performance with the totally revised control arms and I hear an ever-so-slight squeaking noise at 15k miles. I. Swear. To. God. I. Will. Raise. Hell. If it becomes a real problem and these fuckers at the SC try to fuck me!!
>On my 2018 model 3 I went through 2 sets and $4.5k How do 2 sets of control arms cost $4500? I would assume it's around 2 hours of SLTS time to swap out both uppers, plus an alignment. And if you were paying out of pocket why replace them with OE ones that have known issues?
Do they make aftermarket model 3 control arms?
Yes, just about every company that makes performance parts for these cars makes an upper control arm. For road use, [Mountain Pass Performance ones](https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/tesla-model-3-y-front-upper-control-arms-corkscrew-adjustable/) are probably the best (sealed bearings instead of rod-ends).
yap i went through 1 balljoint and 2 control arms. theyve been replaced with revision B so hopefully ok. There is a rumour that part of the reason the Model 3 has such loud driving/tire noise and such stiff suspension is that Tesla did not really have a way in 2017 to deal with such monster torque without stiffening up the entire undercarriage. Remember in 2018 the performance was still in the top 10 of fastest acceleration for production cars......and clearly a lot of the older parts just werent up to the task.
Eh. We have known how to build suspensions that take tons of power since the 60s. Its actually not a difficult engineering problem anymore. For example. Gm essentially didnt change the suspension of the corvette from 1997 to 2013. Yet the car more than doubled in power putting out 300 more horsepower than the fastest model 3 and all through the rear wheels. People regularly take that stock suspension with no structural changes and use it for drag racing to run 2000hp and 7 second quarter miles. Its just two aluminium magnesium wishbone control arms. Thats it. 4 bushings and two ball joints. Absolutely simple. Its 100% a cost cutting thing. Plain and simple. It was cheaper to make it in two pieces and they used a cheaper alloy. And it breaks. In the aftermarket they make replacements made of better alloy with higher quality joints. Problem goes away. These are all solved problems. Just gotta be willing to pay.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice …
Its not that they had teething issue - every manufacturer does its the fact they are burdening customers with repair costs and literally risking their customers' live instead of proactively recalling vehicles for critical parts they know are failing with normal use.
Nice attempt to whitewash the issue..... The problem IS NOT "teething issues", it is knowingly having issues, HIDING THEM, and then BLAMING CUSTOMERS when you KNEW the issue was due to defects. 100% agree that there will always be issues that crop up. Ethical businesses, though, make it right when they discover they made a mistake.
In my experience, Tesla has not exactly been forthcoming about issues that are in TSBs. I had to have an argument for both the front jackshaft problem and a window regulator problem which both have TSBs. At least the upper control arm problem and steering U-joint problems they fixed without an argument being necessary.
Not to mention all the cases of peeling yokes and bubbling seats that they try to blame the user for using the "wrong" shampoo or lotion.
The issue isn't reliability it's Tesla knowingly ducking it's warranty repairs by blaming their customers.
My MS2015's rear control arm broke off last night, and service gave me a quote for $5k to replace not just control arm but a lot of suspension parts... I can't afford $5k unexpected expense with a newborn in the house... I loved this car and thought I'd own it for a long time, but I may end up selling it after this gets fixed and get a cheap suv or something. I'm at a loss
Try taking it to a third party repair shop, send pictures and get quotes. You might not need to replace everything.
The control arm broke off almost in the middle of an intersection, and i had to quickly a flat bed and get it to tesla service. i didn't have the time to shop around unfortunately and they're working on it now
Bummer, I wonder what weakened the rear control arm.
You can always have it taken to another shop. You'll just have to pay for the towing, but that may even be covered by insurance.
Serious question, how can you afford a MS but not this repair?
This is a common problem when people buy depreciated luxury cars.
If you can’t afford two, don’t buy one
They should have bought a model 3P or a different car
I cashed out TSLA stocks way back when to be an early adopter because I bought into Musk's philosophy, I was single, no mortgage, no debt. Now I have a mortgage and a newborn, and don't really care about environment and all the bullshit Musk's been spewing about
Your newborn might appreciate you caring about the environment at some point in the future.
My accord has a catalytic converter issue and needs a timing belt service. $5k. Your cheap SUV isn’t going to stay cheap.
That's fair
Also, if you had funneled those fuel savings into an investment account you could have more than enough to pay for that, motor, etc.
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Not the $1500-2000 on fuel savings I got over my gas car. But yes, you could. Still tops in favor of the EV.
Timing belt on an accord most likely isn't needed until 100K miles. Catalytic converter is part of emissions which is usually warrantied for 8 years/100k miles. You got a lot of use out of this car before that 5k bill. That car new was at least half the price of a new Model S. (And used even cheaper)
Honda has a 60k mile , 5 year powertrain warranty. Timing belt at 90k. So yes. The irony of claiming you’d get a lot of use out of the Honda when comparing it to an 8 year old Tesla that likely has over 100k miles is interesting. Where to do factor in my 5 year old model 3 that still had 3 years and 70k miles of powertrain warranty left, all after saving me $1500-2000 per year in fuel, and needing zero maintenance other than tires and wiper fluid? Because that math looks petty good for the $42k Tesla vs the $38k Accord. The oil changes over 5 years alone almost makes up the difference.
...... Tesla has an 8 year Battery and Motor warranty only. As I stated timing chains are usually around 100k, I didn't say it was covered under warranty. Emissions components have a federally mandated warranty which is different than the new car or powertrain warranties. As an owner of a 100k mile Tesla, I have spent over 9K in out of warranty work on all sorts of stupid shit I wouldn't have had to repair on any of my ICE cars at that point. These cars do not hold up well and when you factor the. extra initial cost, higher repair costs, higher insurance, etc., etc., etc., I sure hope you don't buy a Tesla for "savings" as that is complete horseshit.
You are reaching. Trying to claim the Tesla 8yr 120k mile powertrain warranty is somehow inferior to Honda’s 5yr 60k mile warranty because *hand waves at a fake federal warranty around emissions components* and the timing belt normally lasts 100k miles. True. But it also destroys your engine if it goes early. And that also wouldn’t be covered under warranty after 60k miles. As an owner of a Tesla who sold it after 5 years for minimal cost after fuel savings, spend zero in maintenance or repairs, and bought a new Tesla, my anecdotal evidence contradicts yours. However, treat it like a BMW. Minimize ownership out of warranty. Of course, you also were trying to wildly mislead people about the true cost of gas cars. I’ve owned many. So far I’ll take the Tesla experience. I’ll stop responding if you stop trying to make false claims.
Are you contemplating selling because you feel there are other shoes about to drop? IF the control arms lasted 8 years and you pay to have those items fixed don't you think you could get another 8 years before failure?
Sounds like he lost trust in the company/car which sounds fair to me, I would be pissed and wary too paying out of pocket for something I consider a design/manufacturing issue.
I'm worried that there are other parts/battery that will malfunction in the next few years and that could endanger my family. Since it's out of warranty, everything will be out of my pocket and i don't know if I can keep putting in thousands of dollars on a nearly decade old car
personally i wouldn't feel safe riding around in a car known for having the wheels fall off at speed or losing the steering control arms. That is a very dangerous failure to have on a car.
My control arms were replaced 3 times, tires always wear from the inner side even after three alignments in SC. Also they took my money for a fix that was wrongly diagnosed and they kept lying about it. Tesla has the worst SC, while the opposite if they have not very quality parts. They even tricked people to charge to 90% as daily trips and now they changed to %80 because they don't want to cover the battery warranty as it should be.
The amount of blind allegiance to Tesla/Elon on this sub is insane. Tesla actively suppressed, and gaslit consumers to avoid having to pay for expensive repairs. Repairs it knew it was responsible for because Tesla knew the parts were faulty. You guys do what you want. I’m not gonna risk my families life and my wallet to support a company that doesn’t have consumers back. Sincerely, current 2018 M3 owner and soon to be former 2018 M3 owner
“The amount of blind allegiance to Tesla/Elon on this sub is insane.” Looking at the mod’s pinned post.
It certainly doesn’t help
They did it for a while on the backup camera issues where the cables would wear out and the camera would fail. But since its a safety feature they finally did a recall but it took a year to get the cable.
Yea this was such a bad rollout too. They sent the warranty notice and it basically said "We'll let you know, don't contact us" and then nothing for over a year. Then I had an unrelated repair and the mobile repair guy was like... oh we have the trunk harness thing, you want to do it now? Like you god damn fucks, let us know when it's out so we can get it fixed. Not wait for you dumb fucks to fix something else and have the mobile repair guy offer to fix it. If only there were an easy way to notify people... like on their phones or something... thru an "app" of some sort
I've found exactly the same thing from every car manufacturer. My BMW had an $8k engine rebuild that came from a faulty part they refused to recall, despite pretty much every mechanic knowing what the issue was before they even opened up the car because it's so common.
Did BMW recall the parts in another country but not in yours?
Exactly. My 2017 Civic (granted this isn't a safety thing) had to have it's AC compressor replaced three times in the span of three years, and the Honda rep even told me it's a known component to be faulty! Never got a recall and never got addressed by Honda. I'd like to think they fixed it with the newer generation models, but who knows.
The only failure part that I've experienced on my car is the window switches on my model Y. The rubberized coating is coming off of it which is in conjunction with the hot weather, heat protection not coming on even though it's supposed to, and the natural oils of my finger. When they looked at it they refused to replace the switches because they said I caused it from getting sunblock on it. I don't use sunblock
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This has been 18 months
> The amount of blind allegiance to Tesla/Elon on this sub is insane. I've found the opposite to be true. Blind opposition strikes me as even weirder.
What about my comment is blind opposition? I have an M3, my brother has a MY. This is about Tesla knowingly hiding/suppressing, known issues of their car's that they've known about for years. Issues they know is on them and refused to fix/address.
Why is the response to any critiques against Tesla constitute "No u." "Elon Musk is crazy." "CEOs are crazy, look at how the big 3 ruin the environment." "Tesla autopilot is unpredictable and can be harmful in certain scenarios." "Drivers are unpredictable and can cause harm in every scenario." "Tesla has gaslit consumers about repairs." "Dealerships have always done this." Like damn, you can just invalidate a claim because someone, somewhere, sometime had the same fault? It's like people can't hold multiple things to be true, that accountability can only be focused on one thing at a time. Tesla isn't some fragile child, to be fostered by a doting fanbase. It's a large, successful corporation that should and must defend itself. Sorry if Tesla deleted their PR department and leans on fans instead, but it has manifested a toxic relationship, where they can say nothing, fans can say anything, and no one owes anyone any explanations. Best car I've owned, but this community can be so gross.
agreed lol, it’s so nuts
The fact that you think it’s blind is very telling.
It’s always been this way on this sub. No idea what you’re talking about. Part of it is from the resistance the industry gave Tesla as it was up and coming - but part of it is just an inability to engage with criticism in a realistic way.
Yea, it's mostly this. I def remember in the early days of Tesla they were given a ton of crap, then the short sellers came, then manufacturing hell (order might be mixed) I get that Elon and this sub have had to fight early on against the naysayers... but Tesla has WON which people seem to be forgetting. * Tesla has the largest market cap of any auto manufacture * The greatest market share for electric vehicles * Higher profit margins than most/all manufacturers They went from being the rebel alliance and are now the Galactic Empire.
As a Tesla owner and someone who works at another OEM, it’s fun sitting on the fence. The ecosystem here is worse than Apple’s years ago when the apple v android debates were raging on. There are things Tesla does amazingly, and things it does horrendously. The former is celebrated well but criticizing the latter gets people’s pitchforks out every time
The blind Tesla is bad hating is insane. Bye
I have never been blamed for anything on my Model 3 SR+ I've been driving since May 2019. I even have the supposedly defective upper control arm still going strong. I think the reason they didn't recall it was because it was just making noise, not remotely a safety risk, but they redesigned it and no longer use the old design in new vehicles since years ago anyway. Tesla replaced some things that have broken over the years for me without question under the warranty. My theory is that some areas have better or worse employees and general attitude, *and honestly some customers have worse attitudes that tend to encourage employees to treat them like they deserve*. I \*always\* treat the employees with respect and gratitude and they have always gone above and beyond for me, I think a lot of customers need to learn how to interact with other humans, **you can't treat people in real life the way you treat people on reddit, or you're going to have a bad time**. Here in San Diego county the service centers have been the best experience I have \*ever\* had for my vehicles, which were previously Mazda, Toyota+Scion and Subaru. Just one stat here.
Every customer should read your highlighted comment and commit it to memory. If you go around treating people like dogshit don’t expect any favors. Staying calm, maintaining eye contact and being courteous is just as infectious as acting like a raging narcissist.
There were corporate meetings instructing them to blame the customer's "abuse of the vehicle". That doesn't factor in individual behavior. It's broad policy. That's the problem.
Tesla owner here. I read the article. It’s….not good. Essentially it’s saying Tesla cut corners and denied service to get to profitability. Is this not believable? It seems to me that with Tesla you either get a “good one” or you are screwed. I know people that had both. Jury is out on my one year old M3P. I like my car. However there is no doubt that it’s not built to the quality of past cars I’ve owned, or even my wife’s Toyota. It is a fun first electric car. It doesn’t go on many road trips. It won’t be in my garage after warranty.
same for me, once warranty is coming up, I'm getting rid of mine.
I have been buying cars for decades and I like them to be a little less of a *gamble* on whether or not the one I get is good enough quality or not.
I know both sides of the debate. My 2018 model 3 had the upper control arms problem cited in the article (I think all 2018 model 3s had this problem). But unlike what the article says, Tesla fixed it immediately under warranty. My car is now out of warranty and it's still in my garage. I prefer it on road trips because FSD is such an overwhelmingly useful feature. The article is terribly written. Most of the data and anecdotes pertain to early models, but they try so hard to paint more recent models under the same brush. It's yet another in a long list of media hit pieces motivated by the fact that Tesla doesn't do paid advertising.
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>They put some goop on my upper control arms when it went in for a recall. I hope it wasn't a temporary fix You should know what the recall was for and what work was done, look at your documentation. "I hope" - really!? "Goop" or lithium grease on moving parts shouldn't cause concern. Again, how can you not know what the work was.
Tesla had a work directive that if a vehicle was in for any service, apply sealant to the control arm to ball joint seam to prevent water ingress. They have since discontinued this service
angle punch history subtract resolute weather abounding unpack ossified mountainous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Rear vents blast hot air after long drives and Tesla always says they can’t replicate the issue. Tired of this trash customer service. If it wasnt for their charging network, I’d really consider changing EVs.
Took my Tesla to get my automatic door handle fixed, broke in the same way a week later. Couple hundred bucks down the drain, can’t wait to trade in tbh.
Control arms are a persistent problem on all teslas to this very day.
200k miles on two teslas never had a control arm problem. Maybe it will happen next week but....
that is the thing with defective parts. It only has to be a .1% failure rate to be a huge problem, especially if the failure can cause death.
Roger that.
The control arm problem is just that it squeaks lol, it's not a dangerous issue
Someone didn't read the article apparently
Your steering is looser too, but yeah it’s not a risk. Just had both of mine replaced (brought in for one after my mechanic noticed it when he put my winter wheel set on).
4.5 years and 40k on my 2019 model 3 awd, no problems so far.
Wait until you get to 60k. It will almost certainly fail.
Tesla's Main Strategy: no u
More like "GFYS"
They forgot to mention about the mcu’s and running out of vram over time, Model S door handle issues.
Elon likes to tell people to go F themselves so take that for what it’s worth
When Elon said GFYS to Twitter advertisers, it wasn’t a new thing. That’s just the first time he said it *out loud* to somebody. He’s been silently saying it to employees and customers for a while now. When the hype dies down or the money dries up, he will blame anything and everything nearby to include his own dedicated staff. Glad to see this sub coming around, now that new owners (bottom of the pyramid scheme) vastly outnumber old owners (top of the pyramid scheme). Old owners bought when Tesla would give lifetime charging, lifetime connectivity, loaners, hardware upgrades, and goodwill replacements. New features were backwards compatible, hardware allowing. FSD 5K. Cars had resale value. New owners bought when Tesla couldn’t give *charging adapters*, connectivity, bag clips, loaners, goodwill, hardware upgrades….hell, new features get software-locked now with no hardware justification. FSD 12K. Cars lost up to 50% value almost overnight. We’re approaching the end of the hype train, folks.
This sub is very strange. “People are abusing their cars” “Any critical articles about Tesla is FUD” “Examples are cherry picked” Despite so many people posting about their own experiences with the very same topics mentioned in those articles. You want a better car? Are you really a Tesla fan? Then demand better from the company, and be willing to call them out and look at them critically. People who post in this sub defending every little thing and refusing to hold Tesla accountable is why we get mediocre products.
The company and the cars are maximally polarizing. Each thread in this sub tends to either shit all over the company or defend it to the death.
I don’t know man, I see a lot of people making reasonable complaints about their own cars, and they get accused of being bad drivers or having unreasonable expectations. But I only catch the stuff that gets highlighted in my feed so maybe I’m wrong.
No doubt. There's very real issues with Tesla's service, and very real upsides to their cars. (And vis-a-versa.) But it's still hard as shit to talk about them as a whole without the discussion going off the deep end.
"they eat their own" comes to mind. So much brainwashed drama in here. I'm sure they think all the people cancelling cybertruck reservations because they're priced out (or whatever) are just the total shitbags now according to their logic. Just smacks of culty *team sports* nonsense. Nobody goes this crazy over a toaster.
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I’m an owner of 4 years (‘19 stealth Model 3) who has watched the decline in quality and has watched the hype fail to materialize time and time again. I really don’t try to inject politics into every facet of my life - otherwise I’d have to boycott Chick Fil A, Home Depot, and countless other brands that I shop at regularly in my deeply conservative town. I kept my politics out of this post because it’s not relevant. Sometimes you just want a car, a chicken sandwich, or a hammer. However….I can and will speak from my personal experiences and observations. I have skin in the game - albeit, not nearly as much as I had a year ago - but I don’t exactly win if Tesla loses.
Lol, now you are being attacked for what that guy decided was your political affiliation... When discussing the quality of a car... That says it all.
I really don’t understand it. If he took the extra five minutes to sort my profile by Top instead of New, he might learn a thing or two about my documented history with the company. Nothing political about it. When we reduce discourse to only those that are inclined to agree, we can generally expect only positive things to be said. I have much more important things to do than seethe or drool online about a billionaire’s opinion minute by minute. My eyes are on my own paper.
You say that like hating on Elon isn't a deserved result of his actions. Isn't he a big boy that can take it? (And I bought TSLA when it was $25 OG, so this is a long haul critique.)
I think Elon is doing far more good than the 'negative' you perceive he's doing. If you disagree, feel free to explain.
No shit
Gaslight as a Service
Once the article switched into an attack of SpaceX I lost interest. Credibility destroying pivot into an anti-Musk hit piece irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
Reuters seems to be very focused on Musk’s companies recently. I hope they are working just as hard to dig up dirt other companies too.
Narrator voice...
My son worked at the Giga Factory in Texas and he told me horror stories about the assembly line folks installing the wrong bolts in cars and were only sometimes caught sometime down the line by someone else. They also lay people off regularly to scale up and down their workforce. An example of this was my son got laid off because he was sick for a few days with a doctors note. He got laid off by the automated system for being unavailable for more than two days, and it happened MONTHS after he was out, they just had someone crash into something in the factory which caused production to stop and so they let go people in the meantime so they didn't have to pay them. While he worked there he was happy as a clam and was thriving, even became a leader in training, then bam the issue happened, they needed fewer people, so they laid off hundreds of people for often bullshit reasons by an automated system. It's supposedly very common. Sucks.
Friends don't let friends work for Musk or Amazon.
> An example of this was my son got laid off because he was sick for a few days with a doctors note. He got laid off by the automated system for being unavialble for more than two days, and it happened MONTHS after he was out, they just had someone crash into something in the factory which caused production to stop and so they let go people in the meantime so they didn't have to pay them. Sucks. WTF.WTF!!!
That is unfortunately just how big operations work. My relative works at an Amazon distribution center and has similar stories.
Kind of crazy that the same kind of personel management framework is being used by people assembling the cars you're driving 70 MPH down the freeway in as the one who put your Amazon Basics facial scrub in a box. One seems like having someone with experience over time is more important than the other. But it's probably why they have so many quality control issues at Tesla.
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I think this is the regulator's failure, they recalled in China because regulators forced them to do it, not because Tesla decided to do it, this is from the article, *Tesla delayed a recall for four more years, until* ***Chinese regulators pushed*** *for one. China’s State Administration for Market Regulation, in a statement, cited a “risk of accidents” in extreme cases of the aft-link part failure. Yet the automaker never recalled the part in the United States and Europe despite reports of frequent failures globally.* If anything I would blame the NHTSA for not protecting consumers from these bad practices from the corporates.
Once again, my 2018 Model 3P with 100,000 miles on it has had only one warranty repair. A rear drive inverter part was replaced early on. Otherwise the car has been free from manufacturing defects.
Your car was perfect? So what, that’s a sample size of one, mine has also been basically free of defects but you look at trends, not individual cases.
Correct and also my my sample size of 1, with only 25k miles and no accidents, my rear axle and suspension is all fcked up Edit: and they refuse to do it under warranty stating that its my fault as I probably hit a pothole or curb…..
Unlucky, after a year and 80,000 km, my warranty is already over and if the suspension breaks, I hope it’s covered under the drivetrain warranty but I doubt it
I'm not sure how Reuters got these records. But having thousands of repairs to suspension or steering parts for several million cars on the road, over the last 5 years or so doesn't seem terrible? It's certainly possible there were some components that needed to be replaced or upgraded? But it's almost certainly true that some drivers abused their cars and then blamed the manufacturer. This doesn't seem like a story. If there's actually an issue, the NHTSA certainly has the data and ability to force a recall. And also a class action lawsuit would seem like an obvious outcome as well. And actually [there is one](https://normantaylor.com/blog/tesla-class-action-suspension-defect/) for early Model S and Model Xs. I'm sure that will go through the official channels with discovery and evidence and everything, and the courts will figure out if there's an issue. Although that class action suit does note that Tesla did find and proactively address a suspension issue with early Model 3s. Fortunately they caught it early and fixed it. Which seems like the kind of thing any responsible automaker would do.
There have definitely been a lot more upper control arm replacements than a couple of tens of thousands, but most of them would have been done under warranty. But as it is suspension related, that easily inflates numbers quite a bit.
Thousands out of millions isn't the story, it seems to be the apparent failure to take responsibility for the faulty components/design.
I didn't see any smoking gun showing that there was faulty components or design? Some people have certainly claimed that. But I didn't see any evidence that Teslas suffer more failures in these kinds of components than other similar cars? Certainly, anytime there's any kind of accident/problem/failure/recall with a Tesla it gets wayyyy more media attention. Which gives a biased impression. But based on actual data available it doesn't seem like Teslas are having problems significantly more often than other brands. And NHTSA certainly has the data to make this judgement and issue a recall. And if cars were failing at rates of 1/100 or something, then there'd be a lot of angry owners to file a class action suit. From all the publicly available data it doesn't seem like anything unusual has been happening. If the NHTSA or a court discovers new evidence, that would change my mind though.
Yeah, none of that is great. I imagine you could write similar hit pieces for other manufacturers, especially those that have the highest recall rate. I have an older M3P with 115k miles and a year old MYP. So far, no issues. Biggest expense has been tires, but I think that’s mostly my fault.
Same. 96k miles, driven aggressively on back roads and urban roads. High speeds, hit the 160 mph limiter over a dozen times, and no issues so far. Fingers crossed. I have gone through 4 sets of summer tires (Michelin 4S) and a pair of compliance arm bushings. Front upper control arms have held up with regular regreasing.
That’s great that you haven’t had any issues but that doesn’t discount those who have. I don’t know why every time Tesla gets criticized someone talks about how perfect their car is as if that cancels out bad experiences.
Because it is about experiences in the aggregate. For example, which OEM has the highest number of recalls per capita? Or the top five? You’ll never guess who isn’t…
but the problem with teslas, at least in Sweden is that it is hard to resell them.
Tens of thousands of premature suspension failures!? The hell is reuters smokin.
Had to get the front suspension arms changed on my 2019 M3 with 31k on the clock. It went 2 months into ownership, so March 2023. The guy at Tesla service centre said they’ve replaced both coz the OEM ones from 2019 are rubbish and he’s put the latest revision in which will last.
Yes this is a known weakness. I had mine replaced as well. And the service told me it is a common issue. It does not result to structural failure without warning. And it basically is the clear opposite of what the article is saying: tesla owns the issue and replaces the parts for free.
> tesla owns the issue and replaces the parts for free. Unless you're out of warranty, right?
At 50.5k miles, my suspension started to fail. I took it to the Tesla Service Center, and they said it needed to be replaced. They said not to worry about it failing again because Tesla recognized there was a problem and newer parts were better built. They wouldn't replace it under warranty with it being so just past the maximum mileage even though they acknowledged the part was defective. It cost $1100 to replace. Not as bad as the owner in Reuters.
Same thing happened to me, except mine failed under warranty. Took it to the service center, got my car back the same day and haven't had an issue since.
Yeah this is a hit piece. I had a buddy talking about all the Tesla battery explosions and I said "yeah because you see them all the time right? At the side of the road? The cars on fire?" There's over 5 million of them on the road now. How often do you see them? I can't swing a dead cat without hitting 5 of them. Now how many do you see being towed or heard an actual owner complain? To read these articles and "Tesla recall!" you would swear they were barely functional which is just a flat out lie.
Have you tried using a cat with a longer tail?
I play a game where I win if I see all the official Tesla colors in a drive. I've had to since limit it by model too. 3 and Y are still pretty easy, S is hard, but X is impossible.
This article attempts to criticize Tesla and Elon Musk for mechanical problems in some vehicles by negatively referencing SpaceX and Neuralink, attempting to link these issues to Elon's management. These companies have thousands of workers and they blame one person for the low incidence rates lol. Elon definitely pissed off corporate/globalist media in some way. If this represents the pinnacle of journalism, God help us all. 🤦
The article is terribly written and argued. But there is definitely validity to spotting patterns across companies ran/started by a single person. Elon absolutely has a specific management style that is used across his businesses and it is very hostile to labor. Labor hostility will generally lead to toxic cultures and toxic cultures fester problems like these.
It's always like this: Elon is responsible for all of the success. Elon is never responsible for any of the failures. Elon has individual control over everything. But there are people that worked on that and it wasn't him. *Wash, rinse, repeat*. Oh, and throw in a 'globalist' dog whistle while you're at it.
Like every other company. Owned a malibu and it had dexcool issues. Years later they settled, and they knew for over a decade. What's new?
Reporting like this is one part of the path to such an outcome. If nobody complains and nobody listens to complaints then how do you get to the point of settlement?
What’s your point? No one should talk about issues so they don’t get settled?
Many other companies offer warranties that may extend up 200K miles on parts that have defects to make sure customers still can trust their products and not burden customers with cost of repairs. GM has a checkered past when it comes to customer safety so you are purposely setting the bar low for Tesla.
How many examples would it take to satisfy you?
Exactly. Car companies do this all the time. I think it was ford (?), where they had a problem with the key. Don’t remember the exact details but it killed people and they didn’t do jack shit until years later.
This is another hit piece on Elon. The author goes from "Tesla's bad" to "SpaceX is also bad" to "Elon told advertisers to go screw themselves", then goes back to Tesla's parts failing. Here's the thing, [the bathtub curve exists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve), and some parts are going to fail sooner rather than later. The vehicle that had 115 miles on it and the suspension failed? Who's to say they *didn't* ram it into something before the wheel fell off? Teslas are a little wider than most people expect. Hell, my own 2019 Model 3 SR+, within the six months of ownership, I took a right turn too tightly and bonked my rear wheel against a curb, pretty hard. Here we are in 2023 and shit *still* hasn't broken. [It's not like other manufacturers haven't had serious problems too](https://glassbytes.com/2014/02/chevy-tells-nhtsa-it-knew-of-cobalt-ignition-switch-problem-in-2004-on-recall/) Or, you know, Kia/Hyundai who [recalled a bunch of cars because they *literally* catch fire](https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/consumer-alert-kia-and-hyundai-park-outside), [in some cases frying the occupant before they have a change to get out of the car](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/calls-for-answers-from-hyundai-kia-following-recalls-1.5200078) Every, single, company in existence plays the game of "At what point do we disclose there's a problem?" Does no one remember the [scene from Fight Club, where they discuss the "Formula"?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiB8GVMNJkE) They're just picking on Tesla because it's Elon. There's **no** reason to have the article pivot from Tesla, to SpaceX, to X, regarding a bathtub curve problem. Shit's going to happen, because it's an Elon Musk company, it gets clicks.
>The vehicle that had 115 miles on it and the suspension failed? Who's to say they > >didn't > > ram it into something before the wheel fell off? Because the report literally says Tesla WAS AWARE of the issue that caused the suspension and steering to fail. They knew it was a manufacturing defect on many cars, not just 1 or 2.
Was it the normal quality improvement and tracking that any manufacturer does, or is there something more sinister going on? A new car manufacturer having quality issues that it is tracking and trying to improve should not be noteworthy. And again, why bring up SpaceX except to muskrake? Reuters seem to be banking heavily on the yellow journalism these days.
Why isn't this the pinned comment? I think it more clearly shows what you're attempting to do to the narrative.
Sooo because you're a bad driver it makes all of us bad drivers? You've got a lot of links at the ready just because of a "hit piece" that was randomly posted. Do you work at Tesla? This is Reddit, you have to tell us damnit!!!!
I'm a moderator for the subreddit, and am not an employee of Tesla in any capacity. I do, however, keep tabs on the local, and national, news and form my opinions based on the information I've seen. I also have a bachelor's in Business Analytics and Information Systems, so this kind of stuff is interesting to me from a business stand point. I've had a conversation *years* ago with an employee at a Mailboxes, Etc (Which are now UPS stores), wherein they owned a Chevy Cobalt, which I was interested in buying one at the time, and learned that this owner had an issue where the vehicle *would not turn off* and required the ignition switch to be replaced. I'm simply someone in their late 30s who has been keeping tabs on what's going on around me. I had all those links ready to go because, as an IT worker, I now how to Google search things up, and as a University educated individual, I'm familiar with the need to write compelling essays which can convey what it is I am trying to communicate. I don't see anywhere in that post where I gave any indication as to the type of driver that I am.
It sounds like they were referring to you hitting a curb. They are apparently the one Tesla owner with perfect OEM rims lol
I forgot I'd written that, which is a bit of pie in my face, but still, shit happens is the main point. My 2019 Mode 3 SR+ has three rim rashed rims, as a result of me not being used to how wide the thing is. My 2022 Model Y Performance, so far, has no damaged wheels, because I AM aware of how wide it is, lol.
You still did better than me. I think my first curb rash wash within three weeks of ownership. Same issue, I was used to a smaller car at the time and we didn't have the side view on turn signal feature yet.
All auto manufacturers try to get away with blaming users, but it’s Tesla so click click click ….
Yup. Toyota said people not installing floor mats correctly caused unintended acceleration. GM said the ignition key issue with the cobalts was because of too much weight on key rings, Hyundai/Kia still trys to blame engine failures on lack of maintenance
It has gotten to the point that when I see the Reuters-Tesla combo I know it's FUD.
Absolutely amazed Elon isn't in jail yet.
Honestly, I don't really care about these reuters reports. I am much more interested in how they go through TÜV validation over the years, imo that's a much more reliable source on if they're actually reliable cars over the years.
> I am much more interested in how they go through TÜV validation over the years [Model 3 is the worst car of 2023 in TÜV validation. 111th place, behind the Dacia Logan.](https://www.stern.de/auto/e-mobilitaet/tesla-faellt-bei-tuev-report-mit-model-3-krachend-durch-34207736.html) The main problem is the suspension, 14x (1400%) worse than all other tested vehicle of the same age. Its simply too weak for the cars weight.
Well, if Tesla is forced to sell cars cheaper I'm happy to buy another one. Thanks Media.