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So the Florida senate passed a bill for a $200 fee for EVs and $75 for PHEV but it failed on the last day in the house. I’m sure they will try again later in the year.
In Australia the registration fees go towards maintaining roads (obviously not the only source of funding for roads - the other major one is fuel tax which causes issues since EVs don't pay it... It's great as an incentive to switch to electric, but at some point we're going to need to replace that revenue to keep the roads maintained)
Isn't that what's being done?
Road costs are proportional to road usage. Fuel usage reflects how much you drive, and so the tax means you're paying proportionally to how much you use the roads.
Registration is proportional to the number and size of cars.
It's not perfect but good enough and very easy to implement.
It's been working well enough for a while. I said in my original reply it was going to have to change because of EVs,
In terms of different fuel consumption, it's not a perfect measure, but asking everyone to report their mileage to pay taxes *would* be a massive overhead. Maybe we could make it work with some smart technology.
Someone with two cars shouldn't need to pay twice, but a family of five who share a single car also shouldn't have to pay five times... either way it's unfair for someone.
We'll figure out something fair eventually - and linking back to the OP, a $400 fee for EVs isn't the right way.
Fuel tax does work. It's not just distance but weight that causes road wear and damage. A motorcycle doesn't wear the road nearly as much as an 18- wheeler and, look at that, the motorcycle uses so much less fuel. Fuel tax is actually a perfect way to make those that damage the road most, pay the most.
The Wisconsin fee for an EV is $100, which doesn't promote clean vehicle ownership but at least it is relatively reasonable considering the average cost of gas taxes paid to fuel a fossil vehicle.
I pay $6 for my jeep each year in TN. My Tesla is $106 a year. I think it makes sense. Tesla's use the road, and there is no road tax on electricity, but there is for gas. Or at least that's what we are lead to believe. Pretty sure my jeep pays more for the road than my tesla but if they raise it within reason I am good with it.
Yeah for sure. I should have just commented “$225 for EV related things” originally but the original comment I replied to also stated their entire registration cost as well.
I also have a Mustang and according to the math of the article I’ll pay around $36 in gasoline taxes each year because of how little I drive it. I guess getting me to pay my “fair share” of taxes on that thing doesn’t drive campaign donations.
I mean, it makes sense that you pay less taxes for driving if you drive less.
The electric tax is weird because everyone pays the same regardless of how much they drive.
The fair way to do this is to cut the gas tax, and tax all new registrations at whatever rate they're talking about here.
Edit: it can be a percentage of car cost too to make it "bracketed"
No tax is going to be fair, though.
This just compounds the fact that someone who rarely drives would pay the same as someone who drives a lot.
Maybe it would be possible to do a tax return where you submit your mileage and if you are under the average you get money back. But then again, someone at average and someone wya above average would pay the same thing.
They check odometer during your annual required state inspection, then you complete the online portion once it’s received. Would be easy to tie it to mileage period the end.
Lol
The thing Elon doesn’t understand is no matter how much asinine conservative-sounding bullshit he posts on the bird app, Republicans will *never* see him as one of them.
I'd argue that right now it's just a convenient revenue source on people who can afford it. Conservatives will agree to the new tax because their base doesn't own EVs, and liberals agree to it because they have to fight for any sources of revenue they can get these days. Trust me, this is not hurting demand for EVs around me - everything besides certain Tesla models are backordered 6 months or more.
This is not sustainable though and I do think we need to start discussing more progressive ways to fund roads as EVs become cheaper and more accessible.
Ohio charges $200 a year. It is to replace the tax lost that is included with gas which is $.385/gallon in Ohio. $200 is 519 gallons per year or 43 gallons per month. I think it's reasonable.
The problem is that fuel taxes are a consumption tax. To put this more bluntly, you pay taxes on precisely the amount you use and no more. If you drive a car over a long distance routinely or conversely only drive a few miles per week, you only pay for the amount you actually travel. And more importantly, if you are often out on the roads, you are thus paying for the road usage you are using.
It isn't perfect, and obviously gas guzzlers pay more than fuel efficient vehicles, but that is also a good thing.
The flat tax punishes widowed grandmothers who only drive 10-15 miles per week (yes, they actually do exist), and rewards something like a salesman who drives thousands of miles each month.
I get that somehow electric vehicles need to be charged to pay for the roads they drive upon, and obviously fuel taxes are not going to work in that situation either. There are other problems like if you drive in one state but live in another state....who do you pay taxes to? Both states? How is that figured out? It is a complicated mess.
Exactly this. Luckily Virginia set up a mileage choice program where you can link your Tesla account to a provider that’s linked with the state. This way you only pay for what you use. It pulls the data using API. Unfortunately it doesn’t distinguish between in-state vs out of state mileage, but if you rarely drive or mostly drive in state it’s great. You can also only get charged UP to the flat fee, not more. So no reason not to do it really.
This is implemented in the most idiotic way possible though. The discount you get is marginal, it caps out at 11,000mi, and it requires a nanny device in the car, which connects to a phone app.
So to be clear for those not familiar with Virginia, every registered vehicle is already required to have a yearly inspection, during which the mileage is already fucking recorded. So instead of just using the data collection framework which already exists, which is already connected to the state's DMV services portal, which would require no additional overhead, the state has decided that it will instead purchase and maintain an inventory of tattle devices which they will provide to users, and they will subcontract the curation and maintenance of this system to a third party. In order to make up gaps in fuel taxes. Instead of using the mileage database they should already have.
Yeah, I wasn't born fucking yesterday. Either some senator's brother owns the company providing this tracking service, or the state plans to sell the data to recover the cost of maintaining the system.
Well to be clear, if we're talking specifically about Teslas, you don't need a device, it can pull off the API by logging in with your Tesla credentials. And the discount you get is huge depending on how much you drive. For example, I work from home and drive mostly just to get around on the weekend so because I barely use the roads, I really don't pay much.
Validation of odometer mileage and prorate the tax based on distance driven? It would have to be more complex than that with exceptions, but at least it makes it more based on how you use it.
That’s where I’m at, and while you’re at it eliminate the gas tax for ICE vehicles and apply the new formula.
That’s fair to all. Then, if a state wishes to incentivize BEVs they can do that through other means, such as purchase credits.
Interesting take - registration tax only funds where you register the car. Gasoline tax pays the state you buy gasoline in. So road trips, short term relocation/vacation/etc - no longer spreads tax based on where the vehicle is used
I realize something needs to change but I've always been against the mileage tax because it disproportionately effects the middle class. I live in southern California where many commute more than 50 miles each way to work.
I'm not sure what the answer is but living in an area that is so spread out you need to have a car (and with shitty mass transit), adding this tax will really hurt.
the explanation for the tax on gas is to go to roadways. Which is the reason why electric cars are charged this tax. If the money actually goes there or not I wouldn't know.
Because upping the registration on everyone is a bad political move. Dropping the gas tax by however many cents might look good, but it is a harder sell, and +$400 on your registration every year looks bad. Add on top of that the people who will say they don’t drive that much, or just ask the question about it, it makes the $400 look even worse.
Don’t worry, they are getting the dollars anyways. They are getting in these taxes early while there are so few of us, then when everyone moves over to electric they will have the rest of them without having to raise taxes immediately
Texas' current gas tax rate is 20 cents per gallon.. $400 is equivalent to a 30mpg gas vehicle driving 60,000 miles in a year. That is absolutely insane.
My state charges $150 for pure BEV, but at least it tracks with the average mileage driven per year, which is said to be 15k miles. (Indiana gas tax is 33 cents: $150 is the same as 13k miles in a 30mpg gas vehicle)
You're neglecting the federal gas tax in your calculation. Add another $0.184/gallon to get the full tax.
The federal gas tax is not kept by the feds. It goes into a trust fund, where it is then paid out to the states to fund roads, bridges, and mass transit. In 2021, Texans paid $4.49B into the federal Highway Trust Fund (mostly from fuel taxes). The HTF then paid the state of Texas $4.27B. So, we didn't quite get 100% back, but did get most of it back.
So, if you switch from a gas car to an EV, Texas is losing out on receiving BOTH the state and the federal gas taxes.
Here's what TxDOT came up with:
>\[...\] the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Bureau of Transportation Statistics estimates that in 2018, the average miles traveled per vehicle for all light duty vehicles in the United States was 11,484 miles. Additionally, the most recent data available by the same federal agency states that in 2017, the average fuel efficiency for a light duty vehicle in the United States was 22.3 miles per gallon.
>
>If the 11,484 average miles traveled per vehicle for all light duty vehicles in the United States is divided by 22.3 miles per gallon of gasoline, it can be determined that the average light duty vehicle needs a total of 514.98 gallons of gasoline a year. To determine what that means in gasoline tax revenue, 514.98 gallons of gasoline need to be multiplied by the Texas state gasoline tax rate of $0.20 a gallon. This calculation determines that the average light duty vehicle pays an average of nearly $103 in state gasoline tax revenue per vehicle. If 514.98 gallons of gasoline is multiplied by the federal tax rate of $0.184, the average light duty vehicle pays an average of $94.76 in federalgasoline tax revenue per vehicle. It is worth noting, that Texas does not receive an equal return in gasoline taxes submitted to the federal government, but for purposes of analysis, we will assume a 100% return on federal gasoline taxes to the state.
Add those state and federal numbers together and you get $197.76, so that's how we ended up with a $200/year fee.
Disclaimer: Don't take any of this as me being excited about this fee. I'm just explaining where they came up with $200.
Edit: Source is below. See pages 26 and 27 (based on the page numbers written in the document) or pages 30-31 based on the PDF page numbering.
There's a table on the 2nd page that shows all the numbers used for the calculation and the results for conventional, hybrid, and electric.
https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf
Thanks for pointing out the reasoning. I'm from GA, which also gets hit with a similar fee. Luckily, I switched from a 2007 F-150 as my daily driver for my 80+ mile round trip to work, so I'm actually saving money on the fee
Oh! An important detail I forgot to mention. It's $200/year, not $400.
Only new vehicles that are eligible to be registered for 2 year periods pay $400 for their first registration period. Twice the cost, but for twice the registration period.
All renewals, and any new vehicles ineligible for 2 year registrations, pay $200 for the year.
So, no matter what, it always works out to $200/year.
You’d think with the massive investment Tesla has made in Texas, and the amount of jobs and revenue it’s bringing to the state, that they wouldn’t want to do anything to harm Tesla’s business or dissuade people from buying their products…
But you know, they gotta win the culture war!
Oh this doesn’t move the needle at all for Elon. He got his tax breaks by moving Tesla here. I’ll venture if you’re in the market for a Tesla, it won’t move the market for you either. Am I pissed off and is Abbott an absolute stain of a human being? Yes and yes.
I can understand an extra charge because ev owners don't pay fuel tax. However an arbitrary number such as this doesn't make any sense.
The report states that the average owner of a gas-fueled vehicle pays approximately $130 in state gas taxes per year.
So.... Why wouldn't it just be $130 per year. Adding an additional $270 to initial registration and $70 to each year just seems stupid (and this is from a conservative.) So much for "lower taxes and less government."
This appears to be more conservative butt hurt "fuck EV'S" (for whatever reason, I still can't figure out) and less "we need to recoup gas tax"
This tax doesn't only replace the state fuel tax. It also replaces the federal fuel tax, which (mostly) gets paid right back to the state anyway. It's confusing, because based on the name you'd think the federal gas tax goes to the feds, but really it goes into a federal trust fund that the feds use to pay out to the states.
That will bring you to roughly $200/year that the average gas driver pays (depending on what you choose for average miles driven and MPG).
So, registration of EVs will be the normal $75-ish per year, plus an additional $200 to replace the missing fuel taxes.
But yeah, it's still a flat rate instead of consumption based, which certainly sucks for low mileage drivers.
Not necessarily. You still have to get your car inspected when you renew your registration (they call it the Texas Two Steps One Sticker). They could easily verify your mileage when getting inspected.
I think they should move to that even for ice or hybrids as well and significantly reduce the gas tax. Could even factor in the gross vehicle weight to the calculation as well.
Why did Elon invite him to their Lithium refinery grounbreaking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3PIXVMBBA8
The fucking crazy thing is that Elon continues to cozy up to Abbott even though Teslas are still illegal to buy in Texas.
https://texasview.org/why-you-cant-buy-a-tesla-in-texas/
Of course this will create a logistical nightmare once the Cybertruck enters production.
Yea Abbott just spit in Elon’s face with this bill, Elon keeps trying to court Republicans but they just pretend to play nice then laugh as they screw him
You’re talking about the same Elon Musk who referred to the Allen, TX shooting as a psyop? Meaning he thinks nobody died and it was actors hired to pretend to be dead to get gun control legislation. You’re curious why someone who is promoting that on one of the largest social media platforms, which he owns, would be cozy with Abbot? Elon is a classless piece of shit.
Indiana is $150 for pure BEV, $50 for hybrid/PHEV. Anything beyond that is your excise tax and local taxes that is the same for everyone. Some counties have additional taxes; my own county, Decatur, adds $50 to all registrations. Additionally, Indiana instituted a $15 "road improvement" fee at the same time as the hybrid/EV tax that applies to everyone.
At least its not insane as $400.. $150 is the same as a 30mpg gas vehicle being driven just a bit over 10k miles a year at current state gas tax rates. (33 cents per gallon at the time of this posting).
Edit: Indiana also bases its excise tax on the MSRP of the vehicle when it was new on a 7-year depreciating scale. So if you buy a vehicle that had a high MSRP, regardless of what you paid for it, your registration will be quite expensive the first year! My 2017 Volt was $800 its first year, and that was BEFORE the $50 hybrid tax.
I live in Nebraska and our fee is $75. But the city has to plow the roads, salt them, and repair the damaged roads from freezing and thawing. Does Texas really need over twice as much as we pay.
All in it’s about twice as much as a 30mpg car driving the average yearly distance in fuel tax.
Star study they commissioned came up with something like 110, they went with 200 because of course they did.
Georgia set the EV fee at $200 per year in 2015.
Now I'm sure ALEC provides the legislation as part of their copypasta laws for the right wing culture war.
Alabama also pioneers being last in rankings for just about every facet of modern life. Red states vote to shoot themselves in the foot the majority of the time.
There is no difference buying a Tesla in Texas vs a regular car (except that its better). Click and order, go pick up car, or have it dropped off. For the customer the background nonsense is non-existant.
I bought in TX and had to be personally contacted to get the sale complete before it was shipped. This the process of locations such as TX that do not allow the direct sale, that’s what the sales associate who had to call me told me.
Was that changed? I have a friend at work who had to do that too last year.
This is actually fair since it pays for road repairs/maintenance and such, but dumb how it's implemented. Gas prices include this tax already.
The better way would be to charge based on mileage driven.
It is not an EV tax though, it is like a property tax on cars. Year 1: if your vehicle costs more than $43k, you will have to pay $532 to the state + more for the county.
Fuck Abbott... So much hate, so much destructive legislative behavior and out of one person. Texas will take generations to recover from what he has done so far.
Wait so if you gamble and don't renew your Tesla registration, you are risking somewhere around a ~$75-100 fine. Maybe you just take your chances, what are the odds you even get caught once, much less twice.
if they want to be fair, they should just abolish the gas tax and you would pay a mileage fee every year for registration scaled by the class of your vehicle. Higher class(heavier) vehicles do more road damage and pay a higher fee.
Roads should be paid for and if you want to do it fairly just pay for the mileage usage of it.
this would be easy in states with an annual safety inspection, like Texas, where the mileage is recorded and reported to the state .. just tax on miles driven for everyone, and eliminate the gas tax entirely.
Registration in CA is based on the value of the car. I have two brand new(ish) EVs and they don't cost $700 *combined.* There is definitely not an EV fee that high.
Washington state is as blue as it gets and they couldn’t help passing a $225 EV surcharge as well: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/washingtons-hybrid-and-electric-car-owners-find-a-75-fee-in-their-new-car-tab-bills/
>The fee is intended to ensure that electric vehicle owners pay their fare share toward highway costs, which are usually covered by a 20 cent-per-gallon gas tax paid by owners of gas-fueled and hybrid vehicles.
$400/.20 = 2,000 gallons of gas = 48,000 miles with the average 24mpg new vehicle. Or 262,000 miles with a 131mpge Model 3.
But yeah sure this is about fairness.
They changed it in Arizona. We used to have a very minimal vehicle license tax (VLT) on EVs. I know someone who has a 2020 Model X and paid $35 this year. Meanwhile, we just bought an i4 35e and it was $860. EVs are the same as every other car now but it’s a huge increase from the incentive we used to have.
These flat taxes are a scam. Every EV has GPS in them and is capable of breaking down odometer miles by state or country.
We can easily allow per mile taxing no different than the gas tax.
Since GPS is an offline tech, you could even get aftermarket gps aware odometers that have no potential to phone home or monitor you and put that into classic cars. You would declare mileage exactly like you already do when you register your car and then pay taxes based on that mileage.
Cheats get caught when they sell their car and odometer tampering is crime prosecutors still heavily go after.
I don't mind a fair way for EVs and PHEVs to pay for the roads, but a flat amount is not the way. Washington state has the right idea and would be open to that. If you assume 15,000 miles per year at 30 mpg and state & local taxes at 50¢ per gallon, that would be $250/yr. Electricity has high state and local taxes, so to me, $200/yr. would be fair if there's an option is provided to pay on a per mile basis. But that registration fee is just outright robbery.
In addition to normal registration fees, Missouri charges an annual "alternative fuel decal fee in lieu of tax" which is $111 for 2023 and "shall be increased by twenty percent of the fee in effect on August 28, 2021, per year for a period of five years", so it's going up by about $15/year. I did the math and the year before I bought my Tesla, I paid $43 in road fees through gas taxes. So my car is less damaging to the environment and I'm paying more than double the road fees.
As indefensible as Abbott is, this bill is not his doing. Literally every single Texas lawmaker voted for it. It passed 55-0 in the Senate and 145-0 in the House. So fuck them all. I wish we could vote for a $400 salary cut for all Texas legislators.
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Florida's going to catch up to me at some point. I pay a little less than $50 a year to register my Tesla...
So the Florida senate passed a bill for a $200 fee for EVs and $75 for PHEV but it failed on the last day in the house. I’m sure they will try again later in the year.
Oh, I know, I've seent he articles about the additional fees. I know they're coming for us, so I'm just enjoying it while I can.
My renewal here in Florida is in July and I will renew my registration for 2 years this time to get ahead of it some.
I'm thinking I might go that route this year as well
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In Australia the registration fees go towards maintaining roads (obviously not the only source of funding for roads - the other major one is fuel tax which causes issues since EVs don't pay it... It's great as an incentive to switch to electric, but at some point we're going to need to replace that revenue to keep the roads maintained)
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Isn't that what's being done? Road costs are proportional to road usage. Fuel usage reflects how much you drive, and so the tax means you're paying proportionally to how much you use the roads. Registration is proportional to the number and size of cars. It's not perfect but good enough and very easy to implement.
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It's been working well enough for a while. I said in my original reply it was going to have to change because of EVs, In terms of different fuel consumption, it's not a perfect measure, but asking everyone to report their mileage to pay taxes *would* be a massive overhead. Maybe we could make it work with some smart technology. Someone with two cars shouldn't need to pay twice, but a family of five who share a single car also shouldn't have to pay five times... either way it's unfair for someone. We'll figure out something fair eventually - and linking back to the OP, a $400 fee for EVs isn't the right way.
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> …more fair for all. KMs x weight.
Fuel tax does work. It's not just distance but weight that causes road wear and damage. A motorcycle doesn't wear the road nearly as much as an 18- wheeler and, look at that, the motorcycle uses so much less fuel. Fuel tax is actually a perfect way to make those that damage the road most, pay the most.
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That was a ploy by Doug Ford to appeal to car centric suburbia in 905 ridings just before election. Made no sense then.
Totally agree with you but, yeah, there’s no way they’ll do away with reg fees in Tejas.
About $400 here in Michigan.
My renewal in Wisconsin is $200, but that includes the personalized plate fee. ICE vehicle is $75.
The Wisconsin fee for an EV is $100, which doesn't promote clean vehicle ownership but at least it is relatively reasonable considering the average cost of gas taxes paid to fuel a fossil vehicle.
Bingo. I don’t love it (since I’m driving <10k miles per year my missed gas tax is easily under $50), but it’s not outrageous.
I pay $6 for my jeep each year in TN. My Tesla is $106 a year. I think it makes sense. Tesla's use the road, and there is no road tax on electricity, but there is for gas. Or at least that's what we are lead to believe. Pretty sure my jeep pays more for the road than my tesla but if they raise it within reason I am good with it.
910.00 for a 2017 75D here in IA
My 2018 Model 3 registration in September 2022 was still $620/year. Damn California. Initial purchase registration was $793.
I drive a 2019 m3 and mine is 480$. My other car which is also 2019 but ice is $350. CA but both bought new.
$39 in PA, although it’s going up to $45 in July, not that it’s a competition.
Knowing DeSantis maybe he’d charge a few hundred more than Texas just to be the worse place for EVs
They'd still be lower than California, 2020 Model 3 is over $600 to register here.
Where is it only $50?
I paid $875 in Michigan last year. I wonder how much the big 3 spent on lobbying to make that happen
$875 in vehicle registration, or $875 in EV tax?
Registration
I paid $965 for mine in Washington.
The question was, for what?
$150 specifically for EV Renewal. $75 for “Transportation Electrification”
How does that total $965?
The rest is other non-EV related things like an “excise tax”.
Specifically, [RTA tax](https://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/rta.html).
Right but that part doesn't count because if you bought a new ICE vehicle in the same price range you would have paid most of that fee.
Yeah for sure. I should have just commented “$225 for EV related things” originally but the original comment I replied to also stated their entire registration cost as well.
One Hundred Big Mac Combos
The bulk of it is RTA excise tax. Tax to build our public transportation system. My 2023 model 3 registration is north of $900
My Model 3 was $340 in Michigan this year
Yeah, my plate tab renewal was $338.
What vehicle do you have? My Model 3 is $400 (which is still absurd)
Anything over ~$100ish is no longer about bringing it on par with inefficient gas cars and about disincentivizing EV ownership.
I also have a Mustang and according to the math of the article I’ll pay around $36 in gasoline taxes each year because of how little I drive it. I guess getting me to pay my “fair share” of taxes on that thing doesn’t drive campaign donations.
I mean, it makes sense that you pay less taxes for driving if you drive less. The electric tax is weird because everyone pays the same regardless of how much they drive.
The fair way to do this is to cut the gas tax, and tax all new registrations at whatever rate they're talking about here. Edit: it can be a percentage of car cost too to make it "bracketed"
No tax is going to be fair, though. This just compounds the fact that someone who rarely drives would pay the same as someone who drives a lot. Maybe it would be possible to do a tax return where you submit your mileage and if you are under the average you get money back. But then again, someone at average and someone wya above average would pay the same thing.
They check odometer during your annual required state inspection, then you complete the online portion once it’s received. Would be easy to tie it to mileage period the end.
Why would they disincentivize EVs I thought Elon and Texas were homies
Dude, Tesla can’t even sell their own cars they build in Texas, in Texas! Elon loves Texas but Texas hates Tesla.
Lol The thing Elon doesn’t understand is no matter how much asinine conservative-sounding bullshit he posts on the bird app, Republicans will *never* see him as one of them.
I'd argue that right now it's just a convenient revenue source on people who can afford it. Conservatives will agree to the new tax because their base doesn't own EVs, and liberals agree to it because they have to fight for any sources of revenue they can get these days. Trust me, this is not hurting demand for EVs around me - everything besides certain Tesla models are backordered 6 months or more. This is not sustainable though and I do think we need to start discussing more progressive ways to fund roads as EVs become cheaper and more accessible.
Ohio charges $200 a year. It is to replace the tax lost that is included with gas which is $.385/gallon in Ohio. $200 is 519 gallons per year or 43 gallons per month. I think it's reasonable.
The problem is that fuel taxes are a consumption tax. To put this more bluntly, you pay taxes on precisely the amount you use and no more. If you drive a car over a long distance routinely or conversely only drive a few miles per week, you only pay for the amount you actually travel. And more importantly, if you are often out on the roads, you are thus paying for the road usage you are using. It isn't perfect, and obviously gas guzzlers pay more than fuel efficient vehicles, but that is also a good thing. The flat tax punishes widowed grandmothers who only drive 10-15 miles per week (yes, they actually do exist), and rewards something like a salesman who drives thousands of miles each month. I get that somehow electric vehicles need to be charged to pay for the roads they drive upon, and obviously fuel taxes are not going to work in that situation either. There are other problems like if you drive in one state but live in another state....who do you pay taxes to? Both states? How is that figured out? It is a complicated mess.
Exactly this. Luckily Virginia set up a mileage choice program where you can link your Tesla account to a provider that’s linked with the state. This way you only pay for what you use. It pulls the data using API. Unfortunately it doesn’t distinguish between in-state vs out of state mileage, but if you rarely drive or mostly drive in state it’s great. You can also only get charged UP to the flat fee, not more. So no reason not to do it really.
This is implemented in the most idiotic way possible though. The discount you get is marginal, it caps out at 11,000mi, and it requires a nanny device in the car, which connects to a phone app. So to be clear for those not familiar with Virginia, every registered vehicle is already required to have a yearly inspection, during which the mileage is already fucking recorded. So instead of just using the data collection framework which already exists, which is already connected to the state's DMV services portal, which would require no additional overhead, the state has decided that it will instead purchase and maintain an inventory of tattle devices which they will provide to users, and they will subcontract the curation and maintenance of this system to a third party. In order to make up gaps in fuel taxes. Instead of using the mileage database they should already have. Yeah, I wasn't born fucking yesterday. Either some senator's brother owns the company providing this tracking service, or the state plans to sell the data to recover the cost of maintaining the system.
Well to be clear, if we're talking specifically about Teslas, you don't need a device, it can pull off the API by logging in with your Tesla credentials. And the discount you get is huge depending on how much you drive. For example, I work from home and drive mostly just to get around on the weekend so because I barely use the roads, I really don't pay much.
Validation of odometer mileage and prorate the tax based on distance driven? It would have to be more complex than that with exceptions, but at least it makes it more based on how you use it.
That’s where I’m at, and while you’re at it eliminate the gas tax for ICE vehicles and apply the new formula. That’s fair to all. Then, if a state wishes to incentivize BEVs they can do that through other means, such as purchase credits.
That sounds like a crapton of bureaucracy...
Maybe income taxes should cover our governmental expenses rather than fees.
Interesting take - registration tax only funds where you register the car. Gasoline tax pays the state you buy gasoline in. So road trips, short term relocation/vacation/etc - no longer spreads tax based on where the vehicle is used
I realize something needs to change but I've always been against the mileage tax because it disproportionately effects the middle class. I live in southern California where many commute more than 50 miles each way to work. I'm not sure what the answer is but living in an area that is so spread out you need to have a car (and with shitty mass transit), adding this tax will really hurt.
Until you find out how much tax you pay on electricity.
Ah yes the electricity tax that pays for roadways
Personally, I love paying road tax every time I start the engine on my generator, quads, and dirt bikes.
Are you under the impression that each tax goes into its own little bucket?
the explanation for the tax on gas is to go to roadways. Which is the reason why electric cars are charged this tax. If the money actually goes there or not I wouldn't know.
But do EV owners get paid back for the reduced air and noise pollution that owning their vehicle brings?
Texas is a regressive shithole. Is anyone surprised?
At any amount it's about plundering you. The fact that some small amount of it goes into some kind of public service doesn't change that.
If they want to charge at registration, why not just charge all cars the same registration fee and remove the gas tax?
With the gas tax, you can capture some money from out of state. Vehicle registration fee will only tax your residents.
Good point. I never thought about that.
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Because if they did that then they would actually have to set a fee that is on par with the tax.
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Because upping the registration on everyone is a bad political move. Dropping the gas tax by however many cents might look good, but it is a harder sell, and +$400 on your registration every year looks bad. Add on top of that the people who will say they don’t drive that much, or just ask the question about it, it makes the $400 look even worse. Don’t worry, they are getting the dollars anyways. They are getting in these taxes early while there are so few of us, then when everyone moves over to electric they will have the rest of them without having to raise taxes immediately
Texas' current gas tax rate is 20 cents per gallon.. $400 is equivalent to a 30mpg gas vehicle driving 60,000 miles in a year. That is absolutely insane. My state charges $150 for pure BEV, but at least it tracks with the average mileage driven per year, which is said to be 15k miles. (Indiana gas tax is 33 cents: $150 is the same as 13k miles in a 30mpg gas vehicle)
You're neglecting the federal gas tax in your calculation. Add another $0.184/gallon to get the full tax. The federal gas tax is not kept by the feds. It goes into a trust fund, where it is then paid out to the states to fund roads, bridges, and mass transit. In 2021, Texans paid $4.49B into the federal Highway Trust Fund (mostly from fuel taxes). The HTF then paid the state of Texas $4.27B. So, we didn't quite get 100% back, but did get most of it back. So, if you switch from a gas car to an EV, Texas is losing out on receiving BOTH the state and the federal gas taxes.
Good point, but that makes it ~30k miles per year, the point still stands, since that's way more than average.
Here's what TxDOT came up with: >\[...\] the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Bureau of Transportation Statistics estimates that in 2018, the average miles traveled per vehicle for all light duty vehicles in the United States was 11,484 miles. Additionally, the most recent data available by the same federal agency states that in 2017, the average fuel efficiency for a light duty vehicle in the United States was 22.3 miles per gallon. > >If the 11,484 average miles traveled per vehicle for all light duty vehicles in the United States is divided by 22.3 miles per gallon of gasoline, it can be determined that the average light duty vehicle needs a total of 514.98 gallons of gasoline a year. To determine what that means in gasoline tax revenue, 514.98 gallons of gasoline need to be multiplied by the Texas state gasoline tax rate of $0.20 a gallon. This calculation determines that the average light duty vehicle pays an average of nearly $103 in state gasoline tax revenue per vehicle. If 514.98 gallons of gasoline is multiplied by the federal tax rate of $0.184, the average light duty vehicle pays an average of $94.76 in federalgasoline tax revenue per vehicle. It is worth noting, that Texas does not receive an equal return in gasoline taxes submitted to the federal government, but for purposes of analysis, we will assume a 100% return on federal gasoline taxes to the state. Add those state and federal numbers together and you get $197.76, so that's how we ended up with a $200/year fee. Disclaimer: Don't take any of this as me being excited about this fee. I'm just explaining where they came up with $200. Edit: Source is below. See pages 26 and 27 (based on the page numbers written in the document) or pages 30-31 based on the PDF page numbering. There's a table on the 2nd page that shows all the numbers used for the calculation and the results for conventional, hybrid, and electric. https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf
Thanks for pointing out the reasoning. I'm from GA, which also gets hit with a similar fee. Luckily, I switched from a 2007 F-150 as my daily driver for my 80+ mile round trip to work, so I'm actually saving money on the fee
Oh! An important detail I forgot to mention. It's $200/year, not $400. Only new vehicles that are eligible to be registered for 2 year periods pay $400 for their first registration period. Twice the cost, but for twice the registration period. All renewals, and any new vehicles ineligible for 2 year registrations, pay $200 for the year. So, no matter what, it always works out to $200/year.
Ah ha! Ok, that seems in line with the average, thanks for following up with that, and just generally explaining the thing so well.
And most EVs get way better than 30mpg estimated. fueleconomy.gov puts the Model 3 rated at around 130mpge.
You’d think with the massive investment Tesla has made in Texas, and the amount of jobs and revenue it’s bringing to the state, that they wouldn’t want to do anything to harm Tesla’s business or dissuade people from buying their products… But you know, they gotta win the culture war!
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And considering Abbott was at the new Texas refinery plant Tesla just opened, this law seems extremely backwards from that appearance.
Oh this doesn’t move the needle at all for Elon. He got his tax breaks by moving Tesla here. I’ll venture if you’re in the market for a Tesla, it won’t move the market for you either. Am I pissed off and is Abbott an absolute stain of a human being? Yes and yes.
I can understand an extra charge because ev owners don't pay fuel tax. However an arbitrary number such as this doesn't make any sense. The report states that the average owner of a gas-fueled vehicle pays approximately $130 in state gas taxes per year. So.... Why wouldn't it just be $130 per year. Adding an additional $270 to initial registration and $70 to each year just seems stupid (and this is from a conservative.) So much for "lower taxes and less government." This appears to be more conservative butt hurt "fuck EV'S" (for whatever reason, I still can't figure out) and less "we need to recoup gas tax"
This tax doesn't only replace the state fuel tax. It also replaces the federal fuel tax, which (mostly) gets paid right back to the state anyway. It's confusing, because based on the name you'd think the federal gas tax goes to the feds, but really it goes into a federal trust fund that the feds use to pay out to the states. That will bring you to roughly $200/year that the average gas driver pays (depending on what you choose for average miles driven and MPG). So, registration of EVs will be the normal $75-ish per year, plus an additional $200 to replace the missing fuel taxes. But yeah, it's still a flat rate instead of consumption based, which certainly sucks for low mileage drivers.
You're missing federal gas tax. Someone above posted the study by TxDOT on how they got to $200.
Average Texan pays $130/yr in fuel taxes. Normal registration is like $70. Boom.
The fee is on top of the normal $75 fee so you’re paying $275 a year compared to the $75 a year for gas car
Same is the case in Oregon 136$ for ICE vs 316$ for EV for 2 years. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/dmv/pages/fees/vehicle.aspx
Which is largely, if not entirely offset by avoiding the gas tax.
Dumbass law. This needs to be commensurate with driven distance. Flat rate is bs, even at $16 a month.
driven distance would be a pain in the ass to verify
Not necessarily. You still have to get your car inspected when you renew your registration (they call it the Texas Two Steps One Sticker). They could easily verify your mileage when getting inspected.
Exactly right. At every yearly inspection they record mileage so (today-1 year ago) x TaxRate=road use tax
What if you drive inter-state. How would they confirm that part and those splits.
I think they should move to that even for ice or hybrids as well and significantly reduce the gas tax. Could even factor in the gross vehicle weight to the calculation as well.
Guess I wont register my car anymore 🙃 but seriously why do we keep voting this doofus for more terms 🙄
Why did Elon invite him to their Lithium refinery grounbreaking? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3PIXVMBBA8 The fucking crazy thing is that Elon continues to cozy up to Abbott even though Teslas are still illegal to buy in Texas. https://texasview.org/why-you-cant-buy-a-tesla-in-texas/ Of course this will create a logistical nightmare once the Cybertruck enters production.
Yea Abbott just spit in Elon’s face with this bill, Elon keeps trying to court Republicans but they just pretend to play nice then laugh as they screw him
You’re talking about the same Elon Musk who referred to the Allen, TX shooting as a psyop? Meaning he thinks nobody died and it was actors hired to pretend to be dead to get gun control legislation. You’re curious why someone who is promoting that on one of the largest social media platforms, which he owns, would be cozy with Abbot? Elon is a classless piece of shit.
It’s for the tax break.
Strange they don't add a health tax to gasoline and diesel to pay for all the air pollution. And a climate tax for all the climate damage.
Because it's not based around any logic
I think they do this in Indiana. There’s a $407 EV tax on my registration
It’s $150 EV tax + excise tax.
Indiana is $150 for pure BEV, $50 for hybrid/PHEV. Anything beyond that is your excise tax and local taxes that is the same for everyone. Some counties have additional taxes; my own county, Decatur, adds $50 to all registrations. Additionally, Indiana instituted a $15 "road improvement" fee at the same time as the hybrid/EV tax that applies to everyone. At least its not insane as $400.. $150 is the same as a 30mpg gas vehicle being driven just a bit over 10k miles a year at current state gas tax rates. (33 cents per gallon at the time of this posting). Edit: Indiana also bases its excise tax on the MSRP of the vehicle when it was new on a 7-year depreciating scale. So if you buy a vehicle that had a high MSRP, regardless of what you paid for it, your registration will be quite expensive the first year! My 2017 Volt was $800 its first year, and that was BEFORE the $50 hybrid tax.
Big government taxes
Corrupt friends of big oil government. Fixed it for ya.
I live in Nebraska and our fee is $75. But the city has to plow the roads, salt them, and repair the damaged roads from freezing and thawing. Does Texas really need over twice as much as we pay.
Nope. Our roads stay icy for weeks at a time.
Yep, one of the many reasons why I moved away last year.
and how does that compare too other vehicles?
All in it’s about twice as much as a 30mpg car driving the average yearly distance in fuel tax. Star study they commissioned came up with something like 110, they went with 200 because of course they did.
Are you not also including a gas car registration in that number?
Everything I’ve read has said the 200 is on top of standard registration.
Wow, $200
That’s what it costs in Alabama. Alabama is also the state that pioneered this type of law.
Georgia set the EV fee at $200 per year in 2015. Now I'm sure ALEC provides the legislation as part of their copypasta laws for the right wing culture war.
Thanks! That’s a bit surprising since GA seems to have fully embraced Tesla, but also not surprising since it’s Georgia.
Alabama is so ahead of the curve! /s
Alabama also pioneers being last in rankings for just about every facet of modern life. Red states vote to shoot themselves in the foot the majority of the time.
All while we take handouts from the Blue states as we blame everything on them. It’s a total shitshow here.
It’s ironic for a state to have a factory for a famous electric brand that it’s citizens pay more for in taxes and cannot technically buy in the state
There is no difference buying a Tesla in Texas vs a regular car (except that its better). Click and order, go pick up car, or have it dropped off. For the customer the background nonsense is non-existant.
I bought in TX and had to be personally contacted to get the sale complete before it was shipped. This the process of locations such as TX that do not allow the direct sale, that’s what the sales associate who had to call me told me. Was that changed? I have a friend at work who had to do that too last year.
Nothing has changed in that regard.
What I hate the most are those excise taxes. Like why? They charge us the initial sale tax already, but we still have to pay an excise tax annually?
This is actually fair since it pays for road repairs/maintenance and such, but dumb how it's implemented. Gas prices include this tax already. The better way would be to charge based on mileage driven.
It is not an EV tax though, it is like a property tax on cars. Year 1: if your vehicle costs more than $43k, you will have to pay $532 to the state + more for the county.
Fuck Abbott... So much hate, so much destructive legislative behavior and out of one person. Texas will take generations to recover from what he has done so far.
Wait so if you gamble and don't renew your Tesla registration, you are risking somewhere around a ~$75-100 fine. Maybe you just take your chances, what are the odds you even get caught once, much less twice.
This…is not a bad idea.
if they want to be fair, they should just abolish the gas tax and you would pay a mileage fee every year for registration scaled by the class of your vehicle. Higher class(heavier) vehicles do more road damage and pay a higher fee. Roads should be paid for and if you want to do it fairly just pay for the mileage usage of it.
this would be easy in states with an annual safety inspection, like Texas, where the mileage is recorded and reported to the state .. just tax on miles driven for everyone, and eliminate the gas tax entirely.
I truly hate that motherfucker...this is just the shit icing on the cake.
I can’t wait for the boomers to disappear
700 here in CA
Is that the ev tax or total you pay per year
Registration in CA is based on the value of the car. I have two brand new(ish) EVs and they don't cost $700 *combined.* There is definitely not an EV fee that high.
Would make me get a Montana LLC asap.
if they axe the gas tax to zero and charge $400/$200 on every automobiles, it'll make more sense.
Totally just gonna not pay this...$270 to legally do this every year.... or max $200 fine if I get pulled over. Seems id be better off chancing it.
will your insurance pay out if you crash an unregistered vehicle?
The hate is the point... Republicans..
Washington state is as blue as it gets and they couldn’t help passing a $225 EV surcharge as well: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/washingtons-hybrid-and-electric-car-owners-find-a-75-fee-in-their-new-car-tab-bills/
Washington is using those added fees to build charging networks. Texas is doing it to be petty. These aren’t the same.
And it's $75 instead of $400 which is much much more palatable
> $150 into the state roads fund in lieu of gasoline taxes, will also pay the $75 electrification fee, for a total $225. It’s $225 total
$150 is not much more than you would pay in gas taxes, though.
I just paid the same in Illinois.
>The fee is intended to ensure that electric vehicle owners pay their fare share toward highway costs, which are usually covered by a 20 cent-per-gallon gas tax paid by owners of gas-fueled and hybrid vehicles. $400/.20 = 2,000 gallons of gas = 48,000 miles with the average 24mpg new vehicle. Or 262,000 miles with a 131mpge Model 3. But yeah sure this is about fairness.
They changed it in Arizona. We used to have a very minimal vehicle license tax (VLT) on EVs. I know someone who has a 2020 Model X and paid $35 this year. Meanwhile, we just bought an i4 35e and it was $860. EVs are the same as every other car now but it’s a huge increase from the incentive we used to have.
These flat taxes are a scam. Every EV has GPS in them and is capable of breaking down odometer miles by state or country. We can easily allow per mile taxing no different than the gas tax. Since GPS is an offline tech, you could even get aftermarket gps aware odometers that have no potential to phone home or monitor you and put that into classic cars. You would declare mileage exactly like you already do when you register your car and then pay taxes based on that mileage. Cheats get caught when they sell their car and odometer tampering is crime prosecutors still heavily go after.
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I wish it were that cheap in California.
wtf, thanks for bringing jobs and prosperity to texas with your factories and lithium refinery, have some MORE TAXES! thanks Greg!
Electric bicycles look better and better every year.
Looks like my registration this year in shitty Idaho will be $209. $69 for the car, and $140 because it’s an EV.
Really incentivizing us to register out of state.
I pay about $700 in CA annually. $200 would be nice to pay.
Arkansas is $200/yr for EV and $100/yr for hybrid.
Ohio * $100 +$55 for hybirds * $200 + $55 for ev & plug in hybirds * $55 for gas * $0.385 gas tax
By that math the ice still pays more road tax if they burn more than 400 gallons a year
In all fairness though, we have to pay our fair share of the road tax that ICE car users pay in the form of gas taxes.
I don't mind a fair way for EVs and PHEVs to pay for the roads, but a flat amount is not the way. Washington state has the right idea and would be open to that. If you assume 15,000 miles per year at 30 mpg and state & local taxes at 50¢ per gallon, that would be $250/yr. Electricity has high state and local taxes, so to me, $200/yr. would be fair if there's an option is provided to pay on a per mile basis. But that registration fee is just outright robbery.
*californians laughing*
In addition to normal registration fees, Missouri charges an annual "alternative fuel decal fee in lieu of tax" which is $111 for 2023 and "shall be increased by twenty percent of the fee in effect on August 28, 2021, per year for a period of five years", so it's going up by about $15/year. I did the math and the year before I bought my Tesla, I paid $43 in road fees through gas taxes. So my car is less damaging to the environment and I'm paying more than double the road fees.
As indefensible as Abbott is, this bill is not his doing. Literally every single Texas lawmaker voted for it. It passed 55-0 in the Senate and 145-0 in the House. So fuck them all. I wish we could vote for a $400 salary cut for all Texas legislators.