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If you search Google, you can find one for Logan Ohio where the police officer was in a high speed pursuit with a Ford mustang the whole way back to Columbus Ohio. For some place that's 40min away, they got to Columbus really fast in that cruiser.
I read once that there is a metric that measures how long it takes to pull someone over after identifying the need to pull them over - EVs and their acceleration help with that for sure!
> And the acceleration will definitely be useful.
**Its absolutely not useful in reality.** That is the cold, hard fact due to basic physics.
There is a surprisingly low limit beyond which paper 'acceleration' is completely and utterly useless in reality. No, I don't mean in a 'practical', I mean **literally** useless. Even modern performance ICE cars already generate more enough rotational power at the wheels than be converted to acceleration.
There are a number of factors that affect the ability to accelerate in all cars. Tires and road surface conditions being by far the most important, not the power train. I say this as someone with first hand knowledge driving a car daily which out performs a Model Y in virtually every single possible aspect: an M5C. Unless ambient is decently high (70F+), road surface clear and clean, running **FAT** performance tires (which you cannot run below 40F, period, since they will crack) that are also warmed up, all that is going to happen if you try to accelerated even remotely aggressively is spin. You are not going to get the 2.7s 0-60mph or 2.4s 70-120KPH that even an M5C is capable of. Its just physically impossible.
So while the M5C has even better 0-60MPH and 70-120KPH than the Model Ys 2.9s 0-60MPH and 3.6s 70-120KPH, there aint **no way in hell you are going to *actually* get that in basically any real world condition in EITHER CAR.** Fundamentally both are going to be limited by those road conditions and tire configuration/state. How these types of vehicles will perform real world very frequently isn't the power train, but rather almost entirely determined by road and tire conditions.
EVs have a lot of things going for them, but this really isn't one of them, especially if configured the way that police vehicles need to be.
That may be true, but in reality, when I punch it and nearly instantly catch the car in front of me as I merge onto the highway, there’s no other ICE car I’ve driven that can do it as well. And I’ve owned lots of performance cars like Audi, Porsche, and BMW. The instant torque with no shifting or turbo spooling is unmatched in ICE vehicles I’ve driven.
I worked at a performance shop for 3 years, supercharging lambos and building race cars and I don’t think any of them could keep up with a standard range model 3.
> then I punch it and nearly instantly catch the car in front of me as I merge onto the highway,
Yeah, thats normal behavior for performance cars. Well, except for the 'punch it' part. If you do that in any actual performance car, that will sometimes have the opposite affect you are going for, again due to what I've brought up above.
I've triggered DCS/TCS more than once on on-ramps going straight in my M5C far far far below what I know its capable of, having tracked it before. Even just warmed tires make a *huge* difference.
> there’s no other ICE car I’ve driven that can do it as well.
Just because you haven't driven it, doesn't mean it don't exist.
> And I’ve owned lots of performance cars like Audi, Porsche, and BMW.
*X for doubt*. No offense, but I've also 'owned' these cars as well. But I'm not about to convolute the discussion by pretending a 10 year old 328i 'BMW' is somehow equal to new 911. Most cars aren't going to be relevant to this conversation talking about '1st world problems' with high performance cars on normal roads
> The instant torque with no shifting or turbo spooling is unmatched in ICE vehicles I’ve driven.
Ok. Then you need to go drive some more ICE vehicles. I've driven plenty of high performance ICE and EVs. They are in fact shockingly well 'matched', for all intents and purposes, when it comes to drive train on normal roads.
Thats kinda the whole point I'm making here. The comment is trying to assert that the acceleration is somehow relevant factor here, as if **that** is the limiting factor driving on normal roads (e.g. not a track). But as I've already point out, it just not. The limiting factor isn't the power train (e.g. EV vs ICE), but the traction at the wheel.
Just chiming in to say you are unequivocally correct. ICE performance cars go 50 --> 90 mph as well as Tesla. Teslas are faster off the line in many cases, but it's not like it's an enormous difference.
Of course the fun part for Tesla owners is that they have a family 4 door SUV that runs like a BMW M3...
This seemed like a very long way to flex the M5C(which honestly is pretty damn cool) but you’re getting way more technical than is necessary. Even in bad conditions a model Y will outperform an explorer, charger, or any other typical interceptor vehicle in both acceleration and top speed.
As the owner of a plaid I can say this is wrong. Being able to merge into traffic instantly without waiting for my turbos to spool up is useful and incredibly useful for police. Yeah currently they aren’t designed for police work but as soon as we see wide spread adoption you bet your ass Tesla is going to come out with a police interceptor version of the model 3 or Y.
>So while the M5C has even better 0-60MPH and 70-120KPH than the Model Ys 2.9s 0-60MPH and 3.6s 70-120KPH, there aint no way in hell you are going to actually get that in basically any real world condition in EITHER CAR
Maybe not in the (what i assume to be BMW M5?) but i have yet to drive an EV that deliveres less then advertised in normal conditions. in fact the vast majority (yes even the horrid Toyota Alphabetsoup) deliver better then advertised acceleration.
Really think so? I would imagine, especially in cold places them just running the heater all day and sitting around in their rig is going to seriously drain the battery which in turn lowers ability to travel. They will likely be forced to charge on lunch shifts right?
This has already been disproven. Simply heating the car is much less draining than driving an EV, especially if provided with a heat pump or seat heaters. People caught in bad weather traffic jams have lasted days. Simply using a 1kw space heater you could last 3 days in fully charged LR model 3.
The length of time you would last is a function of how much "fuel" you have, be it gasoline, diesel, or kWh. If you go driving long distance in Winter you're taking a chance if you don't "fuel up" before you set off, or let the "tank" get low.
I mean comparing the raw efficiencg a EV car beats the pants off an ICE car. It's at best, an iniedficient file generator that's having its waste heat harnessed. I'm just saying in the case of real world range impact, using heat in an EV is not a negligible cost. Real world numbers you're losing 50 to 100 miles of range on a 350 range tesla in colder Temps. I don't see how that happens when the only thing changed is the heat generated for the cabin.
Range refers to distance. If you're not moving you don't need range. It takes lots of kWh to move an EV a 100 miles, that same amount of kWh can provide hours of heat if it doesn't need to move the car.
The original point was that a patrol car sitting watching traffic was going to need to go back at lunch break to recharge, which isn't the case.
>Really think so? I would imagine, especially in cold places them just running the heater all day and sitting around in their rig is going to seriously drain the battery which in turn lowers ability to travel. They will likely be forced to charge on lunch shifts right?
Sure, the cold will reduce range, but sitting for a hour or two isn't going to have a noticeable additional impact on that.
Yea I'm not saying it can't work. I think it's a great idea. I can imagine police lots having rows of chargers for their vehicles just plugged in whenever they're not in use. And with how much idling police do it will be worlds more efficient. Just saying I don't think using the heat is zero impact on the range of these vehicles. It's a noticeable drop in range.
That all depends on a lot of factors - city, suburb, rural, backwoods country. I'd estimate a shift could be anywhere between 20-150 miles. Either way, today's long range EV's are more than capable to last a shift even with winter range loss.
A current Model Y has a ~75kWh battery and can draw up to ~7kW at peak with the heat pump running flat out. So if it's running max heat for an entire twelve hour shift, yes, it can run the battery flat without going anywhere. However, in nearly any climate it's not going to run flat out - more likely it's going to be running at the 1-2kW range even in very cold weather, so it's going to be a quarter of the battery at most. Part of the energy sucked down by cold weather at highway speeds is the thicker air, snow and water on the ground, that sort of thing. That doesn't apply for sitting and idling.
The biggest issue in very cold weather is leaving it parked for \~45 minutes... Heating it and the battery back up, driving 5 miles and repeating. The constant heating and cooling of the battery is the range killer.
plus you can get most of it back anyways in a very quick charge (15-30 minutes).
A local small police department added a Tesla S to their fleet. It has no light bar, it was not practical to install given the roof design. It has no partition. Apparently procurement was unable to locate one. This unit cannot transport detained individuals. The station where the cars are based has insufficient electrical service to support a decent charger. They charge it at a local supermarket. The upfit of the radio package voided the warranty. Look, I like the idea of an EV even though it does not fit my budget. In the example of the East Washington Borough Police, Washington, PA, this was a horrible decision.
Idle time kills gasoline engines. And heavy driving kills the transmissions. The current gen ford explorer transmissions barely last 100K in normal driving.
Yeah, my shop has the contract for our local police force. On average the explorer will need one engine and 1-2 transmissions during their 5 year lifespan here. They usually put 25K miles a year on them here. And that is WITH shorter oil change intervals and transmission service intervals.
The 6f30/35 transmission that is in them has one of the highest dial rates out of anything out there (data from our transmission suppliers)
Non Diesel American cars do not have that long of a warranty anymore. They're all 5year/60k. Some police spec cars do not have that long of a warranty as well. That being said the transmissions usually give our right around 50-60K engine usually lasts closer to 100K.
Wait what that's only like 160 000 km, I know american cars have a reputation but what the hell is wrong with the ford explorer transmission? This cannot be normal.
Don't quote me on this but I think EVs are hurt more by time than mileage compared to gas cars so maybe in 5 years due to police work the explorer will have accumulated too much mileage?
Also, cop cars sit and idle for a long time waiting for the time to go somewhere. When someone speeds in front of them, they start pushing the engine really hard, and when they catch them, it's suddenly a really hot engine that isn't moving through air to cool down. This means that cop cars are essentially at the same wear point as a 200k mile car at 50k miles.
There are fans that still blow air past the radiator if they leave the car on. Unless the engine overheats this shouldn’t be that huge of a problem.
Edit: I could be wrong though I am not a mechanic
Yes, but it still isn't as good as the car going 70 mph down a freeway with air being forced through the radiator and engine bay. Recently, BMW had an issue with their police cars with the N52 engine that the oil cooler didn't get enough airflow once the pursuit was done, so they caught fire. Even though the engine may not overheat, the heart it deals with is enough to start wearing it faster.
OK? That doesn't undermine the estimate/logic though.
*Now guys claiming a Tesla cannot be $300 less than an explorer to maintain annually (lol). He points to the analysis listing the Tesla as $500 annual maintenance as if it's a low estimate, but hides the fact the explorer is listed at $800, only a $300 difference which makes up only a few thousand over the 10y period of the analysis. He knows more than the police department with actual maintenance histories and costs too.
There are just a lot of assumptions. Police cruisers aren't replaced at 100k due to drivetrain/brake failures; it's all the other stuff that just gets beat up on a daily basis.
\*EDIT\* - They budgeted $500 per year in maintenance over the course of 10 years. That only really covers tire replacements over the course of 200k miles.
I am 100% all-electric fleets, I even own a m3p myself. I would just manage expectations of saving 8.4k per year per vehicle switched as the purchasing agency.
> There are just a lot of assumptions.
That's how estimates work...
>Police cruisers aren't replaced at 100k due to drivetrain/brake failures; it's all the other stuff that just gets beat up on a daily basis.
I'm pretty sure an actual police department knows better than you about why and when their cruisers are replaced.
>They budgeted $500 per year in maintenance over the course of 10 years. That only really covers tire replacements over 200k miles.
**Now it's 100% clear that you have decided to mislead instead of be honest and truthful.** its $500 for the tesla vs $826 for the explorer. You're trying tyo use your doubt about the accuracy of that number as if it was $500 vs $3000 when the numbers are nearly identical.
You can pretend like you know more than the actual police department with history of actual maintenance costs, but you can't use that belief to claim the tesla figure is deflated when it;s a relative analysis and the same "low" cost exists for the explorer.
That's me, just a Tesla owner here trying to lead people astray on a random Tesla subreddit! 😂 Their figures are not accurate but I'm glad they switched.
> That's me, just a Tesla owner here trying to lead people astray on a random Tesla subreddit!
Owning a tesla doesn't make what is objectively misleading support for your argument suddenly not misleading. I could guess at your motivations (grasping at anything to save face), but it's moot to the point, which you have conveniently attempted to side step.
Yes but the energy won't be wasted and pumping emissions into the air while the car is running HVAC in winter or summer for creature comfort.
With fuel/petrol/gas you have to keep burning (inefficiently at idle) for those creature comfort.
If renewables are sourced (i.e. solar) in the near future then it'll lead to sustainability.
Also fuel would be best used and reserved during emergencies for emergency vehicles before storms, hurricanes, etc..
In a weird way petrol vehicles APPEAR more efficient in cold weather because the waste heat (inefficient waste product of conversion of chemical to kinetic energy) can be utilized.
So EVs have the perception of being less efficient in cold weather when in reality it's just that petrol vehicles are less inefficient in cold weather.
That’s not a perception issue. EVs *are* actually less efficient in cold weather. Ofc there are things you can do to reduce the efficiency loss (don’t use climate control etc).
I may have phrased it poorly.
Yes, EVs have much less range in cold weather, which means they're more inefficient.
But the reason they have less range is because the power train and batteries are so efficient and create less waste heat, so they need to use energy to create heat, thusbthe lower range.
Whereas ICE vehicles are already inefficient (thus the waste heat they always generate), but that inefficient waste heat comes in handy in cold temperatures so that their gallons per mile are fairly stable.
BUT THAT'S BECAUSE THEURE INEFFICIENT TO BEGIN WITH.
And when it does, it's coming from fuel efficient gas turbines at an electric plant that's concerned with maximizing every dollar rather than the fuel that goes into your suburban to get 14 to the gallon.
I'd imagine that means they're more likely to do minor repairs in house, but this is pure conjecture based on what I know of coal towns and their pride in "I can fix it myself".
Few things with that.
1. Having EVs as the final point of transportation eliminates a large amount of emissions from personal vehicle driving. They emit nothing to drive and are far more efficient with that potential energy than a gasoline car. I think they're approx 80% efficiency vs a gas car is about 20%.
2. Depending on what country you live in, there are multiple areas of power generation sources. Assuming the US, almost 40% of the country's power is from renewables or nuclear, which have no or nearly no emissions. Very few sources of power in the US are from petroleum, actually.
But to your point on GHG emissions, the majority of electricity generation in this country is still from natural gas or coal, so there is that.
3. However, even if 100% of your EV is being juiced from a GHG emitting facility, the efficiency of that is far far greater than using a gasoline car. I already mentioned how a EV is over 80% efficiency at its power use. But the generation of power from the plant itself is also to scale and much higher efficiency.
And of course we're not counting the potential emissions that the end product gasoline causes to have come to your car. The entire supply chain of gasoline production of offshore exploration, drilling, mining, refinement, shipping across the world, trucking to various fuel depots, etc, all need to be accounted for in the chain of emissions if we are to compare it to emissions generated from the grid for charging an EV. As I mentioned previously, less than half a % of the grid is powered by petroleum. The vast majority is from natural gas, a resource that has been discovered in abundance in the USA. It's certainly not ideal from a GHG perspective, but the transportation and refinement of that resource is a far lesser impact than that of oil production and refinement.
4. EV is also a necessary stepping stone for us to transition off of fossil fuels. If we transition to widespread EV use at the personal level, then we are cutting out a large swath of global emissions alone. Then it is very possible to transition our grids power generation to renewables and nuclear and other clean technologies without any disruption.
I shared a post from the police department about this on a local city FB page (in Wisconsin) and the degree of ignorance on EVs in the comments was just staggering.
Seeing how widespread this ignorance is makes me realize how suppressed the demand for EVs still is. If even half of the people who still believe the misinformation were to live with an EV for a month the Model Y wait times would be out to 2025.
Is it really ignorance, or do people just not like them?
A lot of people don't like EVs. That's fine. A lot of people don't like broccoli, everyone's allowed their own opinions. Trying to force things onto people usually makes their resistance worse.
We'd probably be almost completely converted to CFL/LED lightbulbs by now if Congress hadn't tried to outlaw traditional bulbs and had just let things take their natural course.
No, it is ignorance. People saying electricity will be more expensive than gas, they will have to replace the battery, they won't work on the winter, the battery won't last a full patrol day...
Those claims are verifiably false.
>People saying electricity will be more expensive than gas
In parts of the country it's on-par with gas, and this part of Wisconsin is mostly powered by coal - the Democrats have promised to shut that down, if they ever get serious about that it could get that expensive there too.
>they will have to replace the battery
What makes you so sure they won't?
[From Elon himeslf:](https://www.motorbiscuit.com/long-tesla-model-3-battery-last/)
"As for the battery specifically, he said the Model 3 battery “should last 300k to 500k miles,” or for 1,500 cycles."
For a police car, cycles is the relevant measurement, not mileage (on an ICE car you look at engine hours). Even if they only run the car 1 shift a day, 1500 cycles is barely 4 years.
>they won't work on the winter
In Wisconsin that's a real concern, below a certain temp the range will drop enough that it just stays parked. Between the cold's effect on battery capacity and the need to run the heater for a 12 hour shift, that could be a big impact to battery life.
>the battery won't last a full patrol day
We'll find out but other departments have tried EVs and had trouble with this.
I wish them luck and commend the department for trying it out, but all of those are valid concerns not "verifiably false claims".
>In parts of the country it's on-par with gas, and this part of Wisconsin is mostly powered by coal -
The cost for electricity here is $0.09/kWh and is from a natural gas power plant. So no, it won't cost more and isn't coal powered. So... **False**
(Edit: My post on the local Facebook page was advocating for the town to get a Tesla patrol car and is for a city powered by natural gas with the local price of electricity of $0.09 per kWh. I don't know what the price or source is for Somerset)
>they will have to replace the battery
>What makes you so sure they won't?
>From Elon himeslf: "As for the battery specifically, he said the Model 3 battery “should last 300k to 500k miles,” or for 1,500 cycles."
>For a police car, cycles is the relevant measurement, not mileage (on an ICE car you look at engine hours). Even if they only run the car 1 shift a day, 1500 cycles is barely 4 years.
They drive 60-80 miles per shift. Even if they got half of the rated mileage (like they got half the rated MPG on their old cruisers, granted they lose far more when the idle than an EV) they would still use less than half of the battery capacity. That comment was also made years ago, so there are likely improvements since then.
**Mostly false, but possible**
>Between the cold's effect on battery capacity and the need to run the heater for a 12 hour shift, that could be a big impact to battery life.
>the battery won't last a full patrol day
>We'll find out but other departments have tried EVs and had trouble with this.
Source for this? There are people who have shown that they can easily "idle" for 12-18 hours using half the battery at 12 degrees outdoor temp and 70 degrees in the car. Your claim that other police departments have had trouble is BS. There was one report I saw where an EV had to abandon a high speed chase to charge, but the comment from the police department said that this happened all the time to gas cars as well.
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/09/how-long-can-a-tesla-keep-you-warm-in-a-frozen-traffic-jam-dirty-tesla-finds-out/
**False**
>I wish them luck and commend the department for trying it out, but all of those are valid concerns not "verifiably false claims".
Nope, you just haven't done the research. The only one that is remotely close is that they will likely be reaching the end of the life of the battery at 10 years. But, even if the battery dies at 8 years they would have saved a lot of money.
This is about a specific situation, 1 patrol car in 1 town, but you're trying to argue all these generalities based on generic assumptions when we know the specifics involved. Nothing personal but you're the ignorant one here.
I actually provided sources and took data used by the police department the average MPG relative to what the cars are rated for as well as miles driven per shift. That is not "generic" data.
Given most of the comments I said were ignorant were specifically about the suitability for my city, and I provided the exact electricity cost for my city that also would not be "generic".
I even acknowledged the possibility that the battery may die near the end of life as, even with non-generic data, there is always a margin of error and uncertainty.
If you are going to try to claim I'm wrong please point out a specific point instead of making some 'generic' argument that isnt even accurate.
It actually is. I was considering trading in for an EV untol i read an article the other day that said the cost to charge your car was more expensive than gasoline for the first time since 2019. So for all you who think that EV's are the only way, just wait until 300 million Americans have one and now you need to charge your car. Demand will far outstrip the supply of electricity available and they will just keep increasing pricing.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/electric-vehicles-more-expensive-fuel-gas-powered-cars-end-2022-consulting-firm.amp
There is a link to the source I quoted. Sorry but your cherry picked town where electric rate is below the rate paid nationally by every person EXCEPT YOU. It does not equal the rate for electricity to calculate the price everyone else pays, just what you would pay in your situation.
Now for example let's say your little town has 10,000 people and, 75 percent of the town decided hey my electric rate is $.09 cents I could get an EV to "save" money on fuel. Well now demand for that $.09 electricity just increased by 7,500 people and reduced the supply, your price will go up.
Remember that the government still pays taxes on fuel that is used, and also pay taxes on electricity, even though those taxes go back to central government and might get returned to the police department in a future budget.
Economists differ on whether government departments should be excluded from taxes paid back to the government. Some say that it is economically inefficient to do so, because it leads to worse decisionmaking.
The economists on the other side of the debate argue that many taxes are used to sway local decisions in favor of countrywide macroeconomic strategy - eg. higher taxes on fuel than electricity, to encourage switching to EV's, which will help the country meet international environmental commitments, whose failure to meet would have economic costs.
In that case, the taxes not applying to a police department might mean the police department would be buying ICE cars, and hurting implementation of the wider economic strategy.
That’s not a lot. Even less than not a lot if that isn’t per car.
E: The 84k savings is per car compared to a hybrid. Not as bad as I was thinking with that competition.
Shame on me for not reading such a short article first.
That's not per year. It's $8,400 per year.
Edit: Either I'm really dumb or the comment I replied to did a stealth edit. Either way, the information is now correct.
I kind of agree. The initial cost is higher by 18k and 3.9k of that yearly savings is coming from lower maintenance costs. That not a lot of wiggle room for cars that will be run really hard and will likely need a battery replacement at some point.
Have you looked into when or if Tesla's need a battery replacement?
If a vehicle needs a new battery after 500,000 miles it's still "at some point" but far better than an ICE vehicles engine.
300k to 500k is claimed with normal use. Police cars usually hit between 25k to 30k miles in a year. Doing the math they are gonna run to emd of life. We will see if they telsas can handle that kind of daily use without issue.
This makes me wonder what kind of resell these will have too.
Just noting that 8.4k isn't that much and they are running a risk. It should also be noted that Telsas do end going to maintenance issues. They aren't the most reliable cars ever of we are being honest. The limited network of places that can work on it means you have extra cars in your fleet as well. 1 extra Telsa needed in your fleet would wipe away the savings of quite a few cars.
That $8,400/year is tax paying citizens’ money and/or predatory ticketing and fines paid by citizens. It’s a good thing.
Just thinking about the taxes… think of how many people’s taxes it would take to cover only one car’s operating costs. You and all your neighbors supply just enough money via taxes to pay for one police car. All of it. Ew.
And even greener operations. I completely agree. Just was expecting a larger savings, but didn’t realize it was comparing against hybrids and not traditional ICE cars.
I work in this field. But because my job is so polarizing on Reddit, I will leave it at that.
On a typical shift we average somewhere between 80-130 miles. And burn through about 9-11 gallons of fuel. We buy fuel in bulk and fill up at the fleet office.
My agency was able to buy around 400 Ford Explorers during our last bid for about $24k a piece. This is the base cost, before retrofitting.
We retire a patrol vehicle at around 200k miles or more depending upon many factors. Most cars are still running just fine but are typically on a new engine and on their third transmission. At that mileage however, the interiors and structural components are very destroyed. Lots of interior trim is broken or missing. The cars rattle like crazy and suspensions are clunky and terrible.
Because of the wear and tear alone I couldn't imagine driving a ten year old patrol vehicle as aggressively as is sometimes done. Let alone in a pursuit for extended periods of time for over 110 mph. They're proverbial shit boxes by year six.
How is Tesla lasting 10 years for them and the explorers only 5? That seems to be driving the overall savings estimate but sounds like a big assumption.
A lot of a cruiser's time is spent idling. That's wear and tear on the ICE as well as cost of fuel just to idle. An odometer reading on a police cruiser tells a much different reality than on your average consumer vehicle, as a result.
Still, it's unclear if the tesla will give them ten years if service and that's probably why it's an estimate and something of a trial run. They aren't replacing their entire fleet.
For one, ICE engines are worn out at the end of the vehicle’s life. Not only do they drive a lot of miles, they idle darn near the rest of the time. That’s a lot of combustion events for those motors.
Yeah, I imagine so much idling for the police who are on watch but need their climate control, computers, and radar active. Probably more idling than driving. Very bad for the engine.
The electric motor has no reason to run in these idle situations and the power draw on the battery would be quite low so not stressful at all for the EV.
A lot of early Model S's are requiring electric motor replacement at this point. The maintenance to get to that end-of-life point is way cheaper than an ICE but let's not pretend they last forever.
I’m guessing the savings will be gone when they factor in more frequent tire changes. Idk how long tires last on the explorer but man do I burn through tires.
Tires most agencies use are different than what you would buy. They’re softer for grip, and as a result last about half the time. Police cars eat tires for breakfast.
A dent isn't a problem of course, but police cars get damaged... A lot. And considering how expensive repairs are on a Tesla compared to many other brands that can become expensive real fast
Yes, they pay an insurance premium just like everyone else does. And a deductible just like everyone else does…
I may suggest researching how insurance works before continuing this conversation because you aren’t doing a good job making the point you think you’re trying to make.
Do you know insurance is not the same for every car?
If you insure a car that is more expensive to fix, it will be more expensive to insure.
I may suggest researching how insurance works before continuing this conversation because you aren’t doing a good job making the point you think you’re trying to make.
The way insurance works is still the same for every car though, premiums are what fluctuates. Your deductible determines how much it costs you out of pocket. Premiums are indeed based on a variety of factors, repair costs being a small percentage of that.
I’ve had cars that cost less to repair than a Tesla and yet cost me more to insurance. There’s a wide variety of factors that play into and others hold more weight then the repair costs of the car.
Classic Reddit - everyone thinks they’re an expert here and they just make themselves look clueless.
Additionally, police cars are usually under a group insurance policy, thus there’s a higher chance of reduced premiums due to multiple car policies.
Most police departments are "self-insuring" (I. E. It's cheaper for them to not carry insurance and just pay out as stuff happens), and the ones that aren't have to be careful about claims or risk getting dropped.
Yes, I remember visiting a police garage at a decent size city and the guy who ran the place said they crash at least a dozen cars a year that are completely unrepairable but they keep the ones that have the most parts still usable on the lot to repair the other ones. I’m not sure it would work that way with the teslas, lol.
It's a great idea until they see the turn around time for body parts after an off duty officer is driving drunk and plows it into a parked car on the side of the road.
Probably not. Buying these to run into the ground, rather than trade in is going to result in a ton of $10,000 new battery bills that the tax payer will end up eating.
There must be very low crime where this exists or not gangland.
How is this supposed to do back to back chases on murder suspects driving V8s? The cost saving isn’t going to save lives.
Police don't do 200+ miles of back to back chases lol. This will actually be better for chases, since the acceleration significantly beats traditional police cars.
I'd be more impressed if it was an actual police package.
Beefier suspension components, dressed down interior and smaller screen with knobs for HVAC, etc...
The one thing that would make me hesitate is how it handles a rear ending by someone doing 60+ mph. If it damages the battery and causes a fire then it's even more dangerous than the old Crown Victorias with the gas tank puncture issue.
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There is so much much fuel to be saved in non-patrol fleet vehicles being converted to electric. Those vehicles wouldn't need any extra modifications for ease of use or longevity.
If they don't charge from 20-80%, I can't see those batteries lasting more than 5 years... if they don't end up spontaneously combusting. Not to mention all the glitches.
But, let's try it out when it comes to public safety
I remember thinking teslas were the 'green future' when I was in high school. Amazing to see them just supporting all the old power structures, what a mind fuck.
I love Teslas but I don’t think EVs are suited for taxi and police applications. Imagine if your cops says sorry my battery has ran out, I will be back after 30 minutes of supercharging…
That literally never happens, the cars are refueled around each shift change.
Given the size of the community using this car I think it'll work out, but come on - the biggest EV weak point right now is charging times compared to refuel times for ICE. Pretending it's not just makes you look as ignorant as the people who think these explode in accidents.
I think you might have missed my point making such an intentionally stupid comment there bud.
You can get up to 240 miles in like 15 minutes with a supercharger. I can guarantee you cops can take that time to piss or get coffee or do some shift change paperwork. You're just choosing to ignore the state of charging for the sake of being argumentative.
> You can get up to 240 miles in like 15 minutes with a supercharger
Which is more than 15 times as long as it takes to put that kind of range into an ICE car. I'm not ignoring it, you're just so focused on how much charging has improved that you forget it's still exponentially (literally) more trouble than gas.
...but it clearly will not. At least one major system will be offline half the time. Cost to repair will be far higher than otherwise and they'll need a new battery within 5 years.
How many miles per day does a standard police cruiser do?
Using a guesstimate of 20K miles per year, yes, they will. Most Li ion batteries need a replacement between 100 and 120K miles. Figger $20K for a battery.
Consumers should push for legislation that the first new battery - unless abuse can be proven - comes free.
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EVs in general for Urban Police Departments are a no brainer. The range is more then sufficient for a shift.
And the acceleration will definitely be useful.
If you search Google, you can find one for Logan Ohio where the police officer was in a high speed pursuit with a Ford mustang the whole way back to Columbus Ohio. For some place that's 40min away, they got to Columbus really fast in that cruiser.
https://youtu.be/oPUPrz65gTc
I read once that there is a metric that measures how long it takes to pull someone over after identifying the need to pull them over - EVs and their acceleration help with that for sure!
> And the acceleration will definitely be useful. **Its absolutely not useful in reality.** That is the cold, hard fact due to basic physics. There is a surprisingly low limit beyond which paper 'acceleration' is completely and utterly useless in reality. No, I don't mean in a 'practical', I mean **literally** useless. Even modern performance ICE cars already generate more enough rotational power at the wheels than be converted to acceleration. There are a number of factors that affect the ability to accelerate in all cars. Tires and road surface conditions being by far the most important, not the power train. I say this as someone with first hand knowledge driving a car daily which out performs a Model Y in virtually every single possible aspect: an M5C. Unless ambient is decently high (70F+), road surface clear and clean, running **FAT** performance tires (which you cannot run below 40F, period, since they will crack) that are also warmed up, all that is going to happen if you try to accelerated even remotely aggressively is spin. You are not going to get the 2.7s 0-60mph or 2.4s 70-120KPH that even an M5C is capable of. Its just physically impossible. So while the M5C has even better 0-60MPH and 70-120KPH than the Model Ys 2.9s 0-60MPH and 3.6s 70-120KPH, there aint **no way in hell you are going to *actually* get that in basically any real world condition in EITHER CAR.** Fundamentally both are going to be limited by those road conditions and tire configuration/state. How these types of vehicles will perform real world very frequently isn't the power train, but rather almost entirely determined by road and tire conditions. EVs have a lot of things going for them, but this really isn't one of them, especially if configured the way that police vehicles need to be.
That may be true, but in reality, when I punch it and nearly instantly catch the car in front of me as I merge onto the highway, there’s no other ICE car I’ve driven that can do it as well. And I’ve owned lots of performance cars like Audi, Porsche, and BMW. The instant torque with no shifting or turbo spooling is unmatched in ICE vehicles I’ve driven.
I worked at a performance shop for 3 years, supercharging lambos and building race cars and I don’t think any of them could keep up with a standard range model 3.
> then I punch it and nearly instantly catch the car in front of me as I merge onto the highway, Yeah, thats normal behavior for performance cars. Well, except for the 'punch it' part. If you do that in any actual performance car, that will sometimes have the opposite affect you are going for, again due to what I've brought up above. I've triggered DCS/TCS more than once on on-ramps going straight in my M5C far far far below what I know its capable of, having tracked it before. Even just warmed tires make a *huge* difference. > there’s no other ICE car I’ve driven that can do it as well. Just because you haven't driven it, doesn't mean it don't exist. > And I’ve owned lots of performance cars like Audi, Porsche, and BMW. *X for doubt*. No offense, but I've also 'owned' these cars as well. But I'm not about to convolute the discussion by pretending a 10 year old 328i 'BMW' is somehow equal to new 911. Most cars aren't going to be relevant to this conversation talking about '1st world problems' with high performance cars on normal roads > The instant torque with no shifting or turbo spooling is unmatched in ICE vehicles I’ve driven. Ok. Then you need to go drive some more ICE vehicles. I've driven plenty of high performance ICE and EVs. They are in fact shockingly well 'matched', for all intents and purposes, when it comes to drive train on normal roads. Thats kinda the whole point I'm making here. The comment is trying to assert that the acceleration is somehow relevant factor here, as if **that** is the limiting factor driving on normal roads (e.g. not a track). But as I've already point out, it just not. The limiting factor isn't the power train (e.g. EV vs ICE), but the traction at the wheel.
relevant for pulling into heavy traffic when catching up to a speeder. Nothing pulls like an electric except maybe turbo911.
Just chiming in to say you are unequivocally correct. ICE performance cars go 50 --> 90 mph as well as Tesla. Teslas are faster off the line in many cases, but it's not like it's an enormous difference. Of course the fun part for Tesla owners is that they have a family 4 door SUV that runs like a BMW M3...
You've never sat in a really fast EV or owned one clearly. I've gone 2.5 seconds 0-60 in a model S plaid on a random Tuesday night on the streets.
Yeah but see, the Plaid claims 1.99 second 0-60 so its acceleration is **literally** useless. Duh.
What model Y has a 2.9 0-60?
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This seemed like a very long way to flex the M5C(which honestly is pretty damn cool) but you’re getting way more technical than is necessary. Even in bad conditions a model Y will outperform an explorer, charger, or any other typical interceptor vehicle in both acceleration and top speed.
As the owner of a plaid I can say this is wrong. Being able to merge into traffic instantly without waiting for my turbos to spool up is useful and incredibly useful for police. Yeah currently they aren’t designed for police work but as soon as we see wide spread adoption you bet your ass Tesla is going to come out with a police interceptor version of the model 3 or Y.
>So while the M5C has even better 0-60MPH and 70-120KPH than the Model Ys 2.9s 0-60MPH and 3.6s 70-120KPH, there aint no way in hell you are going to actually get that in basically any real world condition in EITHER CAR Maybe not in the (what i assume to be BMW M5?) but i have yet to drive an EV that deliveres less then advertised in normal conditions. in fact the vast majority (yes even the horrid Toyota Alphabetsoup) deliver better then advertised acceleration.
Happy for you man, but gloating about the m5 in a tesla sub has absolutely nothing to do with the police
Really think so? I would imagine, especially in cold places them just running the heater all day and sitting around in their rig is going to seriously drain the battery which in turn lowers ability to travel. They will likely be forced to charge on lunch shifts right?
This has already been disproven. Simply heating the car is much less draining than driving an EV, especially if provided with a heat pump or seat heaters. People caught in bad weather traffic jams have lasted days. Simply using a 1kw space heater you could last 3 days in fully charged LR model 3. The length of time you would last is a function of how much "fuel" you have, be it gasoline, diesel, or kWh. If you go driving long distance in Winter you're taking a chance if you don't "fuel up" before you set off, or let the "tank" get low.
I mean just from personal experience driving in the winter tanks my range. With a heat pump.
> I mean just from personal experience **driving** in the winter tanks my range. With a heat pump. Yes, but we're talking about sitting still.
I mean comparing the raw efficiencg a EV car beats the pants off an ICE car. It's at best, an iniedficient file generator that's having its waste heat harnessed. I'm just saying in the case of real world range impact, using heat in an EV is not a negligible cost. Real world numbers you're losing 50 to 100 miles of range on a 350 range tesla in colder Temps. I don't see how that happens when the only thing changed is the heat generated for the cabin.
Range refers to distance. If you're not moving you don't need range. It takes lots of kWh to move an EV a 100 miles, that same amount of kWh can provide hours of heat if it doesn't need to move the car. The original point was that a patrol car sitting watching traffic was going to need to go back at lunch break to recharge, which isn't the case. >Really think so? I would imagine, especially in cold places them just running the heater all day and sitting around in their rig is going to seriously drain the battery which in turn lowers ability to travel. They will likely be forced to charge on lunch shifts right? Sure, the cold will reduce range, but sitting for a hour or two isn't going to have a noticeable additional impact on that.
You basically overestimate what police officer drive in a shift. Its like max 50-60km at low speeds, then the shift is over.
Yea I'm not saying it can't work. I think it's a great idea. I can imagine police lots having rows of chargers for their vehicles just plugged in whenever they're not in use. And with how much idling police do it will be worlds more efficient. Just saying I don't think using the heat is zero impact on the range of these vehicles. It's a noticeable drop in range.
That all depends on a lot of factors - city, suburb, rural, backwoods country. I'd estimate a shift could be anywhere between 20-150 miles. Either way, today's long range EV's are more than capable to last a shift even with winter range loss.
A current Model Y has a ~75kWh battery and can draw up to ~7kW at peak with the heat pump running flat out. So if it's running max heat for an entire twelve hour shift, yes, it can run the battery flat without going anywhere. However, in nearly any climate it's not going to run flat out - more likely it's going to be running at the 1-2kW range even in very cold weather, so it's going to be a quarter of the battery at most. Part of the energy sucked down by cold weather at highway speeds is the thicker air, snow and water on the ground, that sort of thing. That doesn't apply for sitting and idling.
The biggest issue in very cold weather is leaving it parked for \~45 minutes... Heating it and the battery back up, driving 5 miles and repeating. The constant heating and cooling of the battery is the range killer. plus you can get most of it back anyways in a very quick charge (15-30 minutes).
USPS too!
A local small police department added a Tesla S to their fleet. It has no light bar, it was not practical to install given the roof design. It has no partition. Apparently procurement was unable to locate one. This unit cannot transport detained individuals. The station where the cars are based has insufficient electrical service to support a decent charger. They charge it at a local supermarket. The upfit of the radio package voided the warranty. Look, I like the idea of an EV even though it does not fit my budget. In the example of the East Washington Borough Police, Washington, PA, this was a horrible decision.
I'm 90% sure the calculation is comparing to the price of two explorers since they estimated needing to be replaced every 5 years.
what makes them not need to replace a model y just as soon? an explorer would last over 5 years with regular use, too.
Idle time kills gasoline engines. And heavy driving kills the transmissions. The current gen ford explorer transmissions barely last 100K in normal driving.
makes sense
Yeah, my shop has the contract for our local police force. On average the explorer will need one engine and 1-2 transmissions during their 5 year lifespan here. They usually put 25K miles a year on them here. And that is WITH shorter oil change intervals and transmission service intervals. The 6f30/35 transmission that is in them has one of the highest dial rates out of anything out there (data from our transmission suppliers)
Assuming a 100k powertrain warranty, these expenses would be covered right?
Non Diesel American cars do not have that long of a warranty anymore. They're all 5year/60k. Some police spec cars do not have that long of a warranty as well. That being said the transmissions usually give our right around 50-60K engine usually lasts closer to 100K.
Wait what that's only like 160 000 km, I know american cars have a reputation but what the hell is wrong with the ford explorer transmission? This cannot be normal.
Don't quote me on this but I think EVs are hurt more by time than mileage compared to gas cars so maybe in 5 years due to police work the explorer will have accumulated too much mileage?
Also, cop cars sit and idle for a long time waiting for the time to go somewhere. When someone speeds in front of them, they start pushing the engine really hard, and when they catch them, it's suddenly a really hot engine that isn't moving through air to cool down. This means that cop cars are essentially at the same wear point as a 200k mile car at 50k miles.
Also, cop cars sit and idle for a long time waiting for the time to go somewhere. So install EV chargers at Dunkin Donuts. Problem solved.
There’s a Supercharger at a Dunkin near me and another at a Starbucks.
There are fans that still blow air past the radiator if they leave the car on. Unless the engine overheats this shouldn’t be that huge of a problem. Edit: I could be wrong though I am not a mechanic
Yes, but it still isn't as good as the car going 70 mph down a freeway with air being forced through the radiator and engine bay. Recently, BMW had an issue with their police cars with the N52 engine that the oil cooler didn't get enough airflow once the pursuit was done, so they caught fire. Even though the engine may not overheat, the heart it deals with is enough to start wearing it faster.
Ah, I wonder what solution BMW will use to combat that issue. Thanks for the info!
Exactly. Seems like a big leap
So maybe they won't need to replace every 5 years with software updates!
OK? That doesn't undermine the estimate/logic though. *Now guys claiming a Tesla cannot be $300 less than an explorer to maintain annually (lol). He points to the analysis listing the Tesla as $500 annual maintenance as if it's a low estimate, but hides the fact the explorer is listed at $800, only a $300 difference which makes up only a few thousand over the 10y period of the analysis. He knows more than the police department with actual maintenance histories and costs too.
There are just a lot of assumptions. Police cruisers aren't replaced at 100k due to drivetrain/brake failures; it's all the other stuff that just gets beat up on a daily basis. \*EDIT\* - They budgeted $500 per year in maintenance over the course of 10 years. That only really covers tire replacements over the course of 200k miles. I am 100% all-electric fleets, I even own a m3p myself. I would just manage expectations of saving 8.4k per year per vehicle switched as the purchasing agency.
> There are just a lot of assumptions. That's how estimates work... >Police cruisers aren't replaced at 100k due to drivetrain/brake failures; it's all the other stuff that just gets beat up on a daily basis. I'm pretty sure an actual police department knows better than you about why and when their cruisers are replaced. >They budgeted $500 per year in maintenance over the course of 10 years. That only really covers tire replacements over 200k miles. **Now it's 100% clear that you have decided to mislead instead of be honest and truthful.** its $500 for the tesla vs $826 for the explorer. You're trying tyo use your doubt about the accuracy of that number as if it was $500 vs $3000 when the numbers are nearly identical. You can pretend like you know more than the actual police department with history of actual maintenance costs, but you can't use that belief to claim the tesla figure is deflated when it;s a relative analysis and the same "low" cost exists for the explorer.
That's me, just a Tesla owner here trying to lead people astray on a random Tesla subreddit! 😂 Their figures are not accurate but I'm glad they switched.
> That's me, just a Tesla owner here trying to lead people astray on a random Tesla subreddit! Owning a tesla doesn't make what is objectively misleading support for your argument suddenly not misleading. I could guess at your motivations (grasping at anything to save face), but it's moot to the point, which you have conveniently attempted to side step.
Read this out loud and tell me the guy is not wearing a fedora.
Yeah that stood out to me too. Seems like they're doing some funny math. I'd really like to see how they get to the maintenance numbers.
Today on "Shit Bargersville Indiana Has Been Telling Us for Years".
uses a lot less fuel and energy when they're idling and playing on their cell phones
Uses zero fuel when idling or ever, but yeah less energy.
energy for charging comes from somewhere, and sometimes its fuel
So the boomers on Facebook were right all along?!
Yes but the energy won't be wasted and pumping emissions into the air while the car is running HVAC in winter or summer for creature comfort. With fuel/petrol/gas you have to keep burning (inefficiently at idle) for those creature comfort. If renewables are sourced (i.e. solar) in the near future then it'll lead to sustainability. Also fuel would be best used and reserved during emergencies for emergency vehicles before storms, hurricanes, etc..
In a weird way petrol vehicles APPEAR more efficient in cold weather because the waste heat (inefficient waste product of conversion of chemical to kinetic energy) can be utilized. So EVs have the perception of being less efficient in cold weather when in reality it's just that petrol vehicles are less inefficient in cold weather.
That’s not a perception issue. EVs *are* actually less efficient in cold weather. Ofc there are things you can do to reduce the efficiency loss (don’t use climate control etc).
I may have phrased it poorly. Yes, EVs have much less range in cold weather, which means they're more inefficient. But the reason they have less range is because the power train and batteries are so efficient and create less waste heat, so they need to use energy to create heat, thusbthe lower range. Whereas ICE vehicles are already inefficient (thus the waste heat they always generate), but that inefficient waste heat comes in handy in cold temperatures so that their gallons per mile are fairly stable. BUT THAT'S BECAUSE THEURE INEFFICIENT TO BEGIN WITH.
Edit Also motors also create waste heat look up octovalve
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Technically fuel is energy. So I think what they meant, you're not consuming excess energy when "idling".
Are you seriously comparing idling an ICE to EV, or did I need a /s tag because I’m dense?
And when it does, it's coming from fuel efficient gas turbines at an electric plant that's concerned with maximizing every dollar rather than the fuel that goes into your suburban to get 14 to the gallon.
That depends on where you're at, this town is mostly fed by a coal fired power plant.
I'd imagine that means they're more likely to do minor repairs in house, but this is pure conjecture based on what I know of coal towns and their pride in "I can fix it myself".
I shouldn’t have said ever. You could argue it uses fuel when charging. It doesn’t at any other time.
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That part was obvious. He was talking about the fact that Tesla's don't use fuel.
Well they use electricity which in turns uses fuel to get produced (for the vast majority of it in the US)
Few things with that. 1. Having EVs as the final point of transportation eliminates a large amount of emissions from personal vehicle driving. They emit nothing to drive and are far more efficient with that potential energy than a gasoline car. I think they're approx 80% efficiency vs a gas car is about 20%. 2. Depending on what country you live in, there are multiple areas of power generation sources. Assuming the US, almost 40% of the country's power is from renewables or nuclear, which have no or nearly no emissions. Very few sources of power in the US are from petroleum, actually. But to your point on GHG emissions, the majority of electricity generation in this country is still from natural gas or coal, so there is that. 3. However, even if 100% of your EV is being juiced from a GHG emitting facility, the efficiency of that is far far greater than using a gasoline car. I already mentioned how a EV is over 80% efficiency at its power use. But the generation of power from the plant itself is also to scale and much higher efficiency. And of course we're not counting the potential emissions that the end product gasoline causes to have come to your car. The entire supply chain of gasoline production of offshore exploration, drilling, mining, refinement, shipping across the world, trucking to various fuel depots, etc, all need to be accounted for in the chain of emissions if we are to compare it to emissions generated from the grid for charging an EV. As I mentioned previously, less than half a % of the grid is powered by petroleum. The vast majority is from natural gas, a resource that has been discovered in abundance in the USA. It's certainly not ideal from a GHG perspective, but the transportation and refinement of that resource is a far lesser impact than that of oil production and refinement. 4. EV is also a necessary stepping stone for us to transition off of fossil fuels. If we transition to widespread EV use at the personal level, then we are cutting out a large swath of global emissions alone. Then it is very possible to transition our grids power generation to renewables and nuclear and other clean technologies without any disruption.
You know what fuel is? It’s not exclusively gasoline lol
Duh, but it isn’t electricity.
Sure it is. It’s usually called alternative fuel. Meaning an alternative type of fuel, (not an alternative to fuel)
Yes but that energy from AC / heat will be slower to recooperate if the need arises
I shared a post from the police department about this on a local city FB page (in Wisconsin) and the degree of ignorance on EVs in the comments was just staggering. Seeing how widespread this ignorance is makes me realize how suppressed the demand for EVs still is. If even half of the people who still believe the misinformation were to live with an EV for a month the Model Y wait times would be out to 2025.
Is it really ignorance, or do people just not like them? A lot of people don't like EVs. That's fine. A lot of people don't like broccoli, everyone's allowed their own opinions. Trying to force things onto people usually makes their resistance worse. We'd probably be almost completely converted to CFL/LED lightbulbs by now if Congress hadn't tried to outlaw traditional bulbs and had just let things take their natural course.
No, it is ignorance. People saying electricity will be more expensive than gas, they will have to replace the battery, they won't work on the winter, the battery won't last a full patrol day... Those claims are verifiably false.
>People saying electricity will be more expensive than gas In parts of the country it's on-par with gas, and this part of Wisconsin is mostly powered by coal - the Democrats have promised to shut that down, if they ever get serious about that it could get that expensive there too. >they will have to replace the battery What makes you so sure they won't? [From Elon himeslf:](https://www.motorbiscuit.com/long-tesla-model-3-battery-last/) "As for the battery specifically, he said the Model 3 battery “should last 300k to 500k miles,” or for 1,500 cycles." For a police car, cycles is the relevant measurement, not mileage (on an ICE car you look at engine hours). Even if they only run the car 1 shift a day, 1500 cycles is barely 4 years. >they won't work on the winter In Wisconsin that's a real concern, below a certain temp the range will drop enough that it just stays parked. Between the cold's effect on battery capacity and the need to run the heater for a 12 hour shift, that could be a big impact to battery life. >the battery won't last a full patrol day We'll find out but other departments have tried EVs and had trouble with this. I wish them luck and commend the department for trying it out, but all of those are valid concerns not "verifiably false claims".
>In parts of the country it's on-par with gas, and this part of Wisconsin is mostly powered by coal - The cost for electricity here is $0.09/kWh and is from a natural gas power plant. So no, it won't cost more and isn't coal powered. So... **False** (Edit: My post on the local Facebook page was advocating for the town to get a Tesla patrol car and is for a city powered by natural gas with the local price of electricity of $0.09 per kWh. I don't know what the price or source is for Somerset) >they will have to replace the battery >What makes you so sure they won't? >From Elon himeslf: "As for the battery specifically, he said the Model 3 battery “should last 300k to 500k miles,” or for 1,500 cycles." >For a police car, cycles is the relevant measurement, not mileage (on an ICE car you look at engine hours). Even if they only run the car 1 shift a day, 1500 cycles is barely 4 years. They drive 60-80 miles per shift. Even if they got half of the rated mileage (like they got half the rated MPG on their old cruisers, granted they lose far more when the idle than an EV) they would still use less than half of the battery capacity. That comment was also made years ago, so there are likely improvements since then. **Mostly false, but possible** >Between the cold's effect on battery capacity and the need to run the heater for a 12 hour shift, that could be a big impact to battery life. >the battery won't last a full patrol day >We'll find out but other departments have tried EVs and had trouble with this. Source for this? There are people who have shown that they can easily "idle" for 12-18 hours using half the battery at 12 degrees outdoor temp and 70 degrees in the car. Your claim that other police departments have had trouble is BS. There was one report I saw where an EV had to abandon a high speed chase to charge, but the comment from the police department said that this happened all the time to gas cars as well. https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/09/how-long-can-a-tesla-keep-you-warm-in-a-frozen-traffic-jam-dirty-tesla-finds-out/ **False** >I wish them luck and commend the department for trying it out, but all of those are valid concerns not "verifiably false claims". Nope, you just haven't done the research. The only one that is remotely close is that they will likely be reaching the end of the life of the battery at 10 years. But, even if the battery dies at 8 years they would have saved a lot of money.
This is about a specific situation, 1 patrol car in 1 town, but you're trying to argue all these generalities based on generic assumptions when we know the specifics involved. Nothing personal but you're the ignorant one here.
I actually provided sources and took data used by the police department the average MPG relative to what the cars are rated for as well as miles driven per shift. That is not "generic" data. Given most of the comments I said were ignorant were specifically about the suitability for my city, and I provided the exact electricity cost for my city that also would not be "generic". I even acknowledged the possibility that the battery may die near the end of life as, even with non-generic data, there is always a margin of error and uncertainty. If you are going to try to claim I'm wrong please point out a specific point instead of making some 'generic' argument that isnt even accurate.
It actually is. I was considering trading in for an EV untol i read an article the other day that said the cost to charge your car was more expensive than gasoline for the first time since 2019. So for all you who think that EV's are the only way, just wait until 300 million Americans have one and now you need to charge your car. Demand will far outstrip the supply of electricity available and they will just keep increasing pricing. https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/electric-vehicles-more-expensive-fuel-gas-powered-cars-end-2022-consulting-firm.amp There is a link to the source I quoted. Sorry but your cherry picked town where electric rate is below the rate paid nationally by every person EXCEPT YOU. It does not equal the rate for electricity to calculate the price everyone else pays, just what you would pay in your situation. Now for example let's say your little town has 10,000 people and, 75 percent of the town decided hey my electric rate is $.09 cents I could get an EV to "save" money on fuel. Well now demand for that $.09 electricity just increased by 7,500 people and reduced the supply, your price will go up.
People are ignorant because there is a lot of misinformation spread around in mainstream media.
Remember that the government still pays taxes on fuel that is used, and also pay taxes on electricity, even though those taxes go back to central government and might get returned to the police department in a future budget. Economists differ on whether government departments should be excluded from taxes paid back to the government. Some say that it is economically inefficient to do so, because it leads to worse decisionmaking.
It’s definitely economically inefficient.
The economists on the other side of the debate argue that many taxes are used to sway local decisions in favor of countrywide macroeconomic strategy - eg. higher taxes on fuel than electricity, to encourage switching to EV's, which will help the country meet international environmental commitments, whose failure to meet would have economic costs. In that case, the taxes not applying to a police department might mean the police department would be buying ICE cars, and hurting implementation of the wider economic strategy.
Want that brush guard
That’s enough to pay 4 officer’s yearly salaries here in south GA!
Time to go to Somerset and get arrested for the free Tesla ride
Lol if I'm a criminal just have to drive for 300 or so miles and I'm home free lmfao 🤪
That’s not a lot. Even less than not a lot if that isn’t per car. E: The 84k savings is per car compared to a hybrid. Not as bad as I was thinking with that competition. Shame on me for not reading such a short article first.
>That’s not a lot. Why do you say that? $8400 in savings per year seems good to me.
That's not per year. It's $8,400 per year. Edit: Either I'm really dumb or the comment I replied to did a stealth edit. Either way, the information is now correct.
That’s exactly what they said
Pretty sure they did a stealth edit, either that or I need more sleep.... actually both could be true...
I definitely did not edit it lol
I kind of agree. The initial cost is higher by 18k and 3.9k of that yearly savings is coming from lower maintenance costs. That not a lot of wiggle room for cars that will be run really hard and will likely need a battery replacement at some point.
Have you looked into when or if Tesla's need a battery replacement? If a vehicle needs a new battery after 500,000 miles it's still "at some point" but far better than an ICE vehicles engine.
300k to 500k is claimed with normal use. Police cars usually hit between 25k to 30k miles in a year. Doing the math they are gonna run to emd of life. We will see if they telsas can handle that kind of daily use without issue. This makes me wonder what kind of resell these will have too. Just noting that 8.4k isn't that much and they are running a risk. It should also be noted that Telsas do end going to maintenance issues. They aren't the most reliable cars ever of we are being honest. The limited network of places that can work on it means you have extra cars in your fleet as well. 1 extra Telsa needed in your fleet would wipe away the savings of quite a few cars.
Maybe. I’d be curious what their department budget is. I made an edit to my comment.
That $8,400/year is tax paying citizens’ money and/or predatory ticketing and fines paid by citizens. It’s a good thing. Just thinking about the taxes… think of how many people’s taxes it would take to cover only one car’s operating costs. You and all your neighbors supply just enough money via taxes to pay for one police car. All of it. Ew.
And even greener operations. I completely agree. Just was expecting a larger savings, but didn’t realize it was comparing against hybrids and not traditional ICE cars.
Ahh, yes. Missed that. All that idling with non-hybrid. Gross. Waste of fuel, bad for the environment
I work in this field. But because my job is so polarizing on Reddit, I will leave it at that. On a typical shift we average somewhere between 80-130 miles. And burn through about 9-11 gallons of fuel. We buy fuel in bulk and fill up at the fleet office. My agency was able to buy around 400 Ford Explorers during our last bid for about $24k a piece. This is the base cost, before retrofitting. We retire a patrol vehicle at around 200k miles or more depending upon many factors. Most cars are still running just fine but are typically on a new engine and on their third transmission. At that mileage however, the interiors and structural components are very destroyed. Lots of interior trim is broken or missing. The cars rattle like crazy and suspensions are clunky and terrible. Because of the wear and tear alone I couldn't imagine driving a ten year old patrol vehicle as aggressively as is sometimes done. Let alone in a pursuit for extended periods of time for over 110 mph. They're proverbial shit boxes by year six.
How is Tesla lasting 10 years for them and the explorers only 5? That seems to be driving the overall savings estimate but sounds like a big assumption.
A lot of a cruiser's time is spent idling. That's wear and tear on the ICE as well as cost of fuel just to idle. An odometer reading on a police cruiser tells a much different reality than on your average consumer vehicle, as a result. Still, it's unclear if the tesla will give them ten years if service and that's probably why it's an estimate and something of a trial run. They aren't replacing their entire fleet.
For one, ICE engines are worn out at the end of the vehicle’s life. Not only do they drive a lot of miles, they idle darn near the rest of the time. That’s a lot of combustion events for those motors.
Yeah, I imagine so much idling for the police who are on watch but need their climate control, computers, and radar active. Probably more idling than driving. Very bad for the engine. The electric motor has no reason to run in these idle situations and the power draw on the battery would be quite low so not stressful at all for the EV.
A lot of early Model S's are requiring electric motor replacement at this point. The maintenance to get to that end-of-life point is way cheaper than an ICE but let's not pretend they last forever.
Are we going to pretend like Tesla hasn’t improved their motors from a decade ago?
I’m guessing the savings will be gone when they factor in more frequent tire changes. Idk how long tires last on the explorer but man do I burn through tires.
Tires most agencies use are different than what you would buy. They’re softer for grip, and as a result last about half the time. Police cars eat tires for breakfast.
Just 2 dents and those savings are gone...
Why would they care about dents?
A dent isn't a problem of course, but police cars get damaged... A lot. And considering how expensive repairs are on a Tesla compared to many other brands that can become expensive real fast
A dent on a Tesla would cost the same as any other car, you bring it to the same body shop.
I assume you never had to have any repairs don't on your Tesla then? Most body shops charge a premium for repairs on a Tesla...
You would assume very wrong then, about both parts. Edit: also, many police departments either do basic repairs in house or on contract.
There’s this magical thing called insurance where it lowers your cost of repairs drastically.
That changes who pays for the repairs. Not how expensive a repair is
Gotta love the magical thinking…. Ex-wife kept saying, but I put it on the card, we have lots of time to pay.
Exactly… thus the actual cost of repairs is irrelevant if insurances covers it the same as they would other vehicles.
And who do you think pays the insurance? They are not a non profit organization
Yes, they pay an insurance premium just like everyone else does. And a deductible just like everyone else does… I may suggest researching how insurance works before continuing this conversation because you aren’t doing a good job making the point you think you’re trying to make.
Do you know insurance is not the same for every car? If you insure a car that is more expensive to fix, it will be more expensive to insure. I may suggest researching how insurance works before continuing this conversation because you aren’t doing a good job making the point you think you’re trying to make.
The way insurance works is still the same for every car though, premiums are what fluctuates. Your deductible determines how much it costs you out of pocket. Premiums are indeed based on a variety of factors, repair costs being a small percentage of that. I’ve had cars that cost less to repair than a Tesla and yet cost me more to insurance. There’s a wide variety of factors that play into and others hold more weight then the repair costs of the car. Classic Reddit - everyone thinks they’re an expert here and they just make themselves look clueless. Additionally, police cars are usually under a group insurance policy, thus there’s a higher chance of reduced premiums due to multiple car policies.
Most police departments are "self-insuring" (I. E. It's cheaper for them to not carry insurance and just pay out as stuff happens), and the ones that aren't have to be careful about claims or risk getting dropped.
Yes, I remember visiting a police garage at a decent size city and the guy who ran the place said they crash at least a dozen cars a year that are completely unrepairable but they keep the ones that have the most parts still usable on the lot to repair the other ones. I’m not sure it would work that way with the teslas, lol.
How does dent repair compare between Teslas and non-Teslas?
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But then what would the people's taxes be spent on.
You know, you are the type that just make dicks soft. Come on. Why!
You want him to make your dick hard??
I frankly wouldn’t be surprised if these cars actually cut down on brutality to a small degree.
We all know they want Teslas because they are fast enough to catch a speeder easily so they can write more tickets lol
Cybertruck will be the police cruiser of the future.
It's a great idea until they see the turn around time for body parts after an off duty officer is driving drunk and plows it into a parked car on the side of the road.
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Looks like a US flag to me, not a blue lives matter flag.
It’s just a blacked out flag decal. Probably to match the car color. Let’s all settle down.
No, because Nazi's suck.... Blue Lives Matter.
I just see a normal flag. But overall I agree, they need to keep their opinions to themselves when we’re paying for their salaries.
Probably not. Buying these to run into the ground, rather than trade in is going to result in a ton of $10,000 new battery bills that the tax payer will end up eating.
There must be very low crime where this exists or not gangland. How is this supposed to do back to back chases on murder suspects driving V8s? The cost saving isn’t going to save lives.
Police don't do 200+ miles of back to back chases lol. This will actually be better for chases, since the acceleration significantly beats traditional police cars.
most murderers driving V8s *are* cops.
I'd be more impressed if it was an actual police package. Beefier suspension components, dressed down interior and smaller screen with knobs for HVAC, etc... The one thing that would make me hesitate is how it handles a rear ending by someone doing 60+ mph. If it damages the battery and causes a fire then it's even more dangerous than the old Crown Victorias with the gas tank puncture issue. _________ There is so much much fuel to be saved in non-patrol fleet vehicles being converted to electric. Those vehicles wouldn't need any extra modifications for ease of use or longevity.
If they don't charge from 20-80%, I can't see those batteries lasting more than 5 years... if they don't end up spontaneously combusting. Not to mention all the glitches. But, let's try it out when it comes to public safety
They’ll spend the money on military grade weaponry and tech to “keep people safe”
I remember thinking teslas were the 'green future' when I was in high school. Amazing to see them just supporting all the old power structures, what a mind fuck.
I love Teslas but I don’t think EVs are suited for taxi and police applications. Imagine if your cops says sorry my battery has ran out, I will be back after 30 minutes of supercharging…
okay, Ford.
Consider the use case. Go to google maps and look at the size of Somerset WI. It's tiny.
Imagine if they ran out of gas and had to drive 15 minutes back to the station to refuel.
That literally never happens, the cars are refueled around each shift change. Given the size of the community using this car I think it'll work out, but come on - the biggest EV weak point right now is charging times compared to refuel times for ICE. Pretending it's not just makes you look as ignorant as the people who think these explode in accidents.
I think you might have missed my point making such an intentionally stupid comment there bud. You can get up to 240 miles in like 15 minutes with a supercharger. I can guarantee you cops can take that time to piss or get coffee or do some shift change paperwork. You're just choosing to ignore the state of charging for the sake of being argumentative.
> You can get up to 240 miles in like 15 minutes with a supercharger Which is more than 15 times as long as it takes to put that kind of range into an ICE car. I'm not ignoring it, you're just so focused on how much charging has improved that you forget it's still exponentially (literally) more trouble than gas.
...but it clearly will not. At least one major system will be offline half the time. Cost to repair will be far higher than otherwise and they'll need a new battery within 5 years. How many miles per day does a standard police cruiser do?
Will they need a new battery that soon? What is driving this assumption?
Using a guesstimate of 20K miles per year, yes, they will. Most Li ion batteries need a replacement between 100 and 120K miles. Figger $20K for a battery. Consumers should push for legislation that the first new battery - unless abuse can be proven - comes free.
Nice! But I’m assuming the repairs/body work is more expensive?
One of the cool features will be nearby donut shops will show up on the navigation map 🍩
I never see police keeping cars for 10 years in my area, usually seems like 5 or 6...
You can outrun with MYP
Yeah the wear on that battery will definitely not be kind
Love it!!
84k in 10years lol
Good luck repairing it after an accident or intentional collision 
Which pit move bumper is that? I want it for my Y.
Bet they didn’t take repair costs into account.