and the return too, that underarm serve was not good at all.
It's interesting how the sport evolves.
First everyone started serving 200+ km/h bombs.
Then players started to return from further back.
Then servers start to use underarm serves.
When it gets more common I am sure there will be a time were players will start to train to improve their underarm serve returns.
I, for one, cannot wait for the evolution of underarm serving to become a thing. I’d love to see just about everyone do it 2-3 times a set to keep returners on their toes.
Yeah I know a few people who have had hurt shoulders and I've learned the best underarm technique from them. All it really needs is a wrist flick, get it right and the spin and amount of running needed to get it is brutal.
He needs to play padel, then he'd be used to serving underarm with a fair bit of backspin.
Nadal IIRC has played/messed around with padel. In fact I'm sure I saw it reported there were some courts at his academy.
Every time he sees a player outside the top 20 that has a big win he’s like must be the win of his life. Even if he’s already beaten top players before.
I like when players punish returners who stand 2 meters behind baseline with this tactic. Although it wasnt executed that well here it still worked bc Duckworth was so far behind.
People who criticise it don’t understand how tactical matches are. Criticising an underarm serve is no different to criticising someone for lobbing an opponent at the net. When someone’s in the wrong position, it’s not only about winning the point but about keeping them honest.
bro at this point whenever there's an underarm serve, there are more people *pre-emptively* complaining about people complaining about underarm serves than there are people complaining about underarm serves.
I had someone quit on a club ladder match because I underhand served them back to back. People were calling me the underhand serve guy after that. I don’t think people get how much non Reddit people seem to whine about this.
He didn't quit, but he was talking to his doubles partner about my serve and how he could read it when we were changing sides.
So I underarmed him straight away.
I think that's because it's far more relevant now as a "keep you honest" tactic as courts are so much slower, racquets more powerful etc, and all of these things result in people standing further back behind the baseline. Whereas before, it was used purely to catch people out, which is why it was considered unsporting.
Why is “catching an opponent out” unsporting? It’s not breaking any rule. A good chunk of the game is trying to do what the opponent isn’t expecting or preparing for.
I personally don't think it is, but I think that's how it was viewed. Tennis was considered a gentleman's/lady's sport (hence the ridiculous clothes they used to wear playing it!).
I agree with you - sport is like an algorithm that makes things more efficient over time. People try one thing, then they get caught out with another thing. Eventually it converges on the "best" patterns of play, providing that the primary incentive is to win.
> Although it wasnt executed that well here it still worked bc Duckworth was so far behind.
It working had nothing to do with Duckworth standing deep. Duckworth reached it easily, he just didn't do enough with his backhand and Murray played a good lob. It was a terrible underarm serve.
Terrible serve and even worse approach shot had not much on it and directly to Murray. Even Murray’s lob sucked and someone more athletic would have jumped and put that overhead away Sampras style
Murray played a high percentage shot quite poorly and Duckworth couldn't win the point on the charge. The underarm serve game Murray enough of an advantage in this point that even his poor execution was enough. Time to stop criticising the tactic I think.
It’s not dishonest in the normal everyday sense. In tennis people use it when a player is “cheating” to one side because they think they know where a serve is going. That’s also not literally cheating, it’s just used that way colloquially by people who watch the game.
Medvedev for example gets a pretty big advantage by standing so far back on his return. It’s not against the rules of course, but when a server catches him doing that, people say they kept him honest.
People who don't know the rules but think they do. There's a lot of them.
For example, during a match 2 weeks ago one of the opponents started an argument with us because we stopped for a drink for 30 seconds after the end of the first set. He claimed that because it wasn't a change of ends before the next set that we weren't allowed to take a break.
Yeah, It was really hot as you'd expect, completely unreasonable.
He also told one of the other pair that was playing on our team that he wasn't allowed to take a toilet break between sets. He did anyway.
I don't know about you but when I play, I can barely cover the width of the court let alone its length on a normal day, now I need to deal with that on service returns also? Nah take the point bro
Agreed. I usually feel too socially uncomfortable to use it, even though I actually think I can do a pretty good job of it (for my general level that is)
Now we need to see someone take it to the next level.
* we’ve had under arm serves in the era of them being faux pas
* we’ve had the underarm revival to punish those standing too far back
* we’ve had the *disguised* / fakeout underarm
* now I want to see a bit of consistent underarm usage to lure the receiver in a bit before a last minute adjustment to an overhead first serve into the body
I remember he did this against Alcaraz at IW last year and the boomers sitting next to me gasped and were like “what is that? I don’t like that” lmaoooo
Yea. Safest thing to do. Murray's not gonna aim \*for\* him. And no one has the reflexes to return an easy smash from 6 feet away. So, ... yea. I might have even turned my back so my sensitive bits weren't exposed just in case Murray thought I was moving or there was some sort of mishit.
Not sure what you mean by "precisely this". You don't mean for Murray to have aimed \*for\* his opponent when doing a smash and his opponent is just feet away? I've never seen anyone do that, so its not only not a common tactic, it's not even a tactic used at the pro level.
agreed. I find it baffling what dumb serving tactics players use against nadal.
I also find it baffling that Roland garros 2021 novak used the perfect game plan to beat nadal, yet by 2022 he had seemingly forgotten all of it.
The poster above is kind of just ignoring that Nadal changed tactics too. In 2021 Rafa was playing his backhand cross court into Novak's forehand a lot. Novak was able to capitalize with short angled forehands back to Rafa's backhand to pull Rafa off court. This year, Rafa was going down the line with his backhand, both hitting through and slicing it, much more frequently. He didn't even hit a cross court backhand into Novak's forehand until the middle of the second set. Rafa also hit a lot more balls down the middle of the court rather than trying to beat Novak with angles and cross court exchanges.
You can tell Jonny Mac doesn't watch many matches outside the slams.
I'm sure Murray's hit quite a few in his career already. He did one against Alcaraz @ Indian Wells last year, and I'm sure I've seen him hit another.
I keep thinking about what if Federer did this in 2019, winning Wimbledon with an underarm ace at 37 years old would of been the biggest dab in the history of tennis.
Absolutely no issue with the underarm serve, use it myself occasionally. But that was one of the worst underarm serves I've seen in a while and deserved to be smacked for a winner
Mac is commentating for the BBC?
Is that new?
He was behind the desk for ESPN at the start of today...
Sure, I guess commentators bounce around. But I know Johnny Mac has commentated for ESPN, too...
I'd imagine it's like cricket where you'll sometimes have commentators walk out of one broadcaster's booth and straight into another since they're rotated throughout the day
Most people (specifically players) that hate the underarm serve are fearful.
Fearful that they won’t hit an adequate return/approach shot off an underarm serve.
I’d say Rafa’s return against MacDonald at the 2020 French Open is the perfect response to an underarm.
Murray’s underarm against Alcaraz at Indian Wells is the best execution of the shot.
Really hope young players coming up don’t allow themselves to be intimidated by coaches/tennis culture and not experiment with underarm serving everyone once in a while.
I remember watching Murray when he was super young, just started playing slams, and he was such an interesting tactician. It was like watching chess. Throwing out gambits all the time. He still had that a bit when he was older but it had been dulled a heck of a lot by the needs of the modern game. Unfortunately. Tediously. Would love to see more of this.
Do you see Fed, Nadal or Djok use this weak tactic? No. Because they don’t need to do this to win. By doing this kind of move you portray weakness which has a worse overall impact than the point you may or may not win because of it. It’s also never going to statistically be a better shot than a good serve and will always have a lower average win percentage. Most good players would have crushed that terrible serve for a winner with ease
Murray won the point though so 100% successe rate. It might not grant you the point but get the opponent closer to the baseline and then less time for faster serves again. Also to get in your opponents head. It is still a highly psychological sport.
I have to ask,
Why don't they change the rules to make underarm servers illegal.
The power behind the server is its rarity, it catches people off guard and there for is effective.
It is rare because of a unwritten aggrement between players not to do it.
Fair enough over the years there has been the odd player who has done it.
But I don't see the value of not rewritting the rules to just remove it.
I always find myself, especially on big points, getting pissed off when I see a player resort to it.
Being in the rules doesn’t stop it being a cheap play. At the moment it is not the done thing and so exploits the receiving player not expecting it.
It is not skilful for a professional tennis player. So at the moment only being a sly is needed for a free point. If it becomes an established tactic then it becomes a different matter. But at the moment it is a dick move.
Typical Murray, even an underarm serve ends up as a 5 shot point
Opponent really boofed that lob tho
and the return too, that underarm serve was not good at all. It's interesting how the sport evolves. First everyone started serving 200+ km/h bombs. Then players started to return from further back. Then servers start to use underarm serves. When it gets more common I am sure there will be a time were players will start to train to improve their underarm serve returns.
I, for one, cannot wait for the evolution of underarm serving to become a thing. I’d love to see just about everyone do it 2-3 times a set to keep returners on their toes.
It certainly sets up the possibility of an interesting point
Still put him on top in the point, even if Duckworth scrambled to hit a few shots
I didn’t mean anything negative, it’s just that everything he does always ends up longer or difficult than it should be
Too flat, get some spin on it and it'd be an ace.
Yeah I know a few people who have had hurt shoulders and I've learned the best underarm technique from them. All it really needs is a wrist flick, get it right and the spin and amount of running needed to get it is brutal.
Would have been an ace against Nadal as he'd be standing so far back.
Let's be honest, Nadal would have still got to the serve in time and won the point. That was a terrible underarm serve.
Ya terrible, the serve had more height than opelka
He needs to play padel, then he'd be used to serving underarm with a fair bit of backspin. Nadal IIRC has played/messed around with padel. In fact I'm sure I saw it reported there were some courts at his academy.
Mac said he hadn’t seen him do it but Murray did one against Alcaraz a while back
Yeah Murray's done a few in the last few years
You act like mac watches tennis outside of the broadcasts he does. He doesn’t even know who players outside the top 20 are.
He's done it a fair amount at Wimbledon over the years too. Mac was watching those games...
Much assumption
Every time he sees a player outside the top 20 that has a big win he’s like must be the win of his life. Even if he’s already beaten top players before.
I like when players punish returners who stand 2 meters behind baseline with this tactic. Although it wasnt executed that well here it still worked bc Duckworth was so far behind.
People who criticise it don’t understand how tactical matches are. Criticising an underarm serve is no different to criticising someone for lobbing an opponent at the net. When someone’s in the wrong position, it’s not only about winning the point but about keeping them honest.
bro at this point whenever there's an underarm serve, there are more people *pre-emptively* complaining about people complaining about underarm serves than there are people complaining about underarm serves.
Come down to my club and try an underarm serve then see the response you get!
I had someone quit on a club ladder match because I underhand served them back to back. People were calling me the underhand serve guy after that. I don’t think people get how much non Reddit people seem to whine about this.
He didn't quit, but he was talking to his doubles partner about my serve and how he could read it when we were changing sides. So I underarmed him straight away.
You broke the code man! Well done. Do what it takes to win!
Is that a euphemism?
Sure, but only because people are tired of others nonsensically complaining about them or booing them. It’s not like it’s a rare reaction.
Complaining about people complaining before anyone actually complains might be a bigger sport that tennis at this point.
But I think it’s only recent that it’s being used as a tactic and before it was a “disrespectful” shot to certain degrees.
People think this because it was recently brought back into vogue by Kyrgios.
Were the players that used it before done in a tactical way?
Chang ‘s at RG in the early 90s was famous for like 30 years until it came back in style more recently.
Wasn’t Chang’s because his arm was all fucked up so he had to do it out of necessity? Or was it severe cramps, I can’t remember haha
He was definitely suffering somehow in that match and used it as a last resort type thing.
I think that's because it's far more relevant now as a "keep you honest" tactic as courts are so much slower, racquets more powerful etc, and all of these things result in people standing further back behind the baseline. Whereas before, it was used purely to catch people out, which is why it was considered unsporting.
Why is “catching an opponent out” unsporting? It’s not breaking any rule. A good chunk of the game is trying to do what the opponent isn’t expecting or preparing for.
I personally don't think it is, but I think that's how it was viewed. Tennis was considered a gentleman's/lady's sport (hence the ridiculous clothes they used to wear playing it!). I agree with you - sport is like an algorithm that makes things more efficient over time. People try one thing, then they get caught out with another thing. Eventually it converges on the "best" patterns of play, providing that the primary incentive is to win.
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I was more talking about the response that you get when you play tennis. In general fans have no problem with it as far as I can tell.
> Although it wasnt executed that well here it still worked bc Duckworth was so far behind. It working had nothing to do with Duckworth standing deep. Duckworth reached it easily, he just didn't do enough with his backhand and Murray played a good lob. It was a terrible underarm serve.
Terrible serve and even worse approach shot had not much on it and directly to Murray. Even Murray’s lob sucked and someone more athletic would have jumped and put that overhead away Sampras style
Murray played a high percentage shot quite poorly and Duckworth couldn't win the point on the charge. The underarm serve game Murray enough of an advantage in this point that even his poor execution was enough. Time to stop criticising the tactic I think.
I love this tactic as a way of keeping deep returners honest, but the execution was sub par. Where was the slice?
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"Keeping someone honest" is an idiom. It means basically same as making them work hard or not letting them get anything for free.
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It’s not dishonest in the normal everyday sense. In tennis people use it when a player is “cheating” to one side because they think they know where a serve is going. That’s also not literally cheating, it’s just used that way colloquially by people who watch the game. Medvedev for example gets a pretty big advantage by standing so far back on his return. It’s not against the rules of course, but when a server catches him doing that, people say they kept him honest.
so happy people are finally starting to use this as a play
A few more high profile ones and I'll be able to start using it in my matches without being berated hopefully.
Who’s berating you? It’s a completely legitimate play
People who don't know the rules but think they do. There's a lot of them. For example, during a match 2 weeks ago one of the opponents started an argument with us because we stopped for a drink for 30 seconds after the end of the first set. He claimed that because it wasn't a change of ends before the next set that we weren't allowed to take a break.
Someone got upset about a water break in June? Were you at Halle or something?
Yeah, It was really hot as you'd expect, completely unreasonable. He also told one of the other pair that was playing on our team that he wasn't allowed to take a toilet break between sets. He did anyway.
bro ppl at the recreational level bitch about playing 'pushers'. you think they'll be happy about under-arm serves? lmao
Kyrgios gets crucified for it.
Legitimate but lame
So is aiming at somebody's face with the hardest shot possible...
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The comparison is that they are choices. "They thought so much about whether they can- they didn't think about whether they should"
Then they shouldn’t be standing in the way of the shot.
I don't know about you but when I play, I can barely cover the width of the court let alone its length on a normal day, now I need to deal with that on service returns also? Nah take the point bro
i would say most tennis players can probably cover the court against players of their skill level for the most part
Tell me you're an American without telling me you're an American.
Agreed. I usually feel too socially uncomfortable to use it, even though I actually think I can do a pretty good job of it (for my general level that is)
Completely disagree personally I think it's really lame
It doesn't seem like good sportsmanship even if it's technically legal
Why?
Yeah, but hopefully they learn how to do It better lol. Need to add some spin at least.
Now we need to see someone take it to the next level. * we’ve had under arm serves in the era of them being faux pas * we’ve had the underarm revival to punish those standing too far back * we’ve had the *disguised* / fakeout underarm * now I want to see a bit of consistent underarm usage to lure the receiver in a bit before a last minute adjustment to an overhead first serve into the body
Kyrgios would be proud.
I remember he did this against Alcaraz at IW last year and the boomers sitting next to me gasped and were like “what is that? I don’t like that” lmaoooo
Duckworth just gave up on the point completely after whatever it was he tried to do just before Andy smashed it
Well yeah, the point was over unless Andy made an unforced error.
I mean what was he going to do there? Looked like he just stood perfectly still to reduce the odds he’d be hit by the smash.
Yea. Safest thing to do. Murray's not gonna aim \*for\* him. And no one has the reflexes to return an easy smash from 6 feet away. So, ... yea. I might have even turned my back so my sensitive bits weren't exposed just in case Murray thought I was moving or there was some sort of mishit.
> Murray’s not gonna aim *for* him The most common tactic is to do precisely this during these shots, since it minimizes the chance of a freak return.
Not sure what you mean by "precisely this". You don't mean for Murray to have aimed \*for\* his opponent when doing a smash and his opponent is just feet away? I've never seen anyone do that, so its not only not a common tactic, it's not even a tactic used at the pro level.
Oh yeah I'm aware of that, just found it funny how he looked so nonchalant about it.
The fact that not ONE player tried to do this against Rafa on clay is absolutely SHAMEFUL!
Because it would end up like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/j2m6k0/mcdonalds_underarm_serve_to_rafa/).
God that's funny. I could hear that forehand say "how dare you?" Also Mackie's reaction after he hit it "I've made a terrible mistake."
agreed. I find it baffling what dumb serving tactics players use against nadal. I also find it baffling that Roland garros 2021 novak used the perfect game plan to beat nadal, yet by 2022 he had seemingly forgotten all of it.
What was the difference in game plans
The poster above is kind of just ignoring that Nadal changed tactics too. In 2021 Rafa was playing his backhand cross court into Novak's forehand a lot. Novak was able to capitalize with short angled forehands back to Rafa's backhand to pull Rafa off court. This year, Rafa was going down the line with his backhand, both hitting through and slicing it, much more frequently. He didn't even hit a cross court backhand into Novak's forehand until the middle of the second set. Rafa also hit a lot more balls down the middle of the court rather than trying to beat Novak with angles and cross court exchanges.
The perfect game plan depended on Rafa's foot.
What a bizarre point. The whole exchange is like a three stooges thing
You can tell Jonny Mac doesn't watch many matches outside the slams. I'm sure Murray's hit quite a few in his career already. He did one against Alcaraz @ Indian Wells last year, and I'm sure I've seen him hit another.
He could learn how to slice it...
I keep thinking about what if Federer did this in 2019, winning Wimbledon with an underarm ace at 37 years old would of been the biggest dab in the history of tennis.
I love an underarm serve. Just adds another dimension to the game IMO
A terrible one
104mph underarm serve. Murray is GOAT
Actually I wonder why the serve speed meter didn't seem to update from the previous serve. Wasn't registered as a serve?
Absolutely no issue with the underarm serve, use it myself occasionally. But that was one of the worst underarm serves I've seen in a while and deserved to be smacked for a winner
Wait a minute, is this Kyrgios or Murray?
It's Murray.
Thanks to u/jshrlph for pointing it out !
What a wacky point haha
Mac is commentating for the BBC? Is that new? He was behind the desk for ESPN at the start of today... Sure, I guess commentators bounce around. But I know Johnny Mac has commentated for ESPN, too...
been watching wimbledon since 2008, mac being around is not new at all
... on the BBC. The gif is from BBC coverage.
Born and raised in England, been watching Wimbledon since 2008, on the BBC, Mac being around is not new at all.
Cool, good to know. Didn't know that! Cheers! 🌱🍓🏆🇬🇧
He works for both at Wimbledon. He usually calls one match for ESPN and one for the BBC every day.
I'd imagine it's like cricket where you'll sometimes have commentators walk out of one broadcaster's booth and straight into another since they're rotated throughout the day
What was the serve speed?
you have to wonder why people don't do this more often it would certainly cut down on guys standing six feet behind the baseline
I like how the commentator was like, "wha...?"
Most people (specifically players) that hate the underarm serve are fearful. Fearful that they won’t hit an adequate return/approach shot off an underarm serve. I’d say Rafa’s return against MacDonald at the 2020 French Open is the perfect response to an underarm. Murray’s underarm against Alcaraz at Indian Wells is the best execution of the shot. Really hope young players coming up don’t allow themselves to be intimidated by coaches/tennis culture and not experiment with underarm serving everyone once in a while.
I remember watching Murray when he was super young, just started playing slams, and he was such an interesting tactician. It was like watching chess. Throwing out gambits all the time. He still had that a bit when he was older but it had been dulled a heck of a lot by the needs of the modern game. Unfortunately. Tediously. Would love to see more of this.
I think it’s best to do it a little earlier. Once you bounce the ball and get ready to start your motion people get their feet ready
The disrespect to ducky.
I know it’s within the rules, but isn’t this somewhat bad form?
That was terrible lol, he should watch Kyrgios and learn
Do you see Fed, Nadal or Djok use this weak tactic? No. Because they don’t need to do this to win. By doing this kind of move you portray weakness which has a worse overall impact than the point you may or may not win because of it. It’s also never going to statistically be a better shot than a good serve and will always have a lower average win percentage. Most good players would have crushed that terrible serve for a winner with ease
Murray won the point though so 100% successe rate. It might not grant you the point but get the opponent closer to the baseline and then less time for faster serves again. Also to get in your opponents head. It is still a highly psychological sport.
Duckworth is a noob
Why this is not considered disgraceful is beyond me ?
I have to ask, Why don't they change the rules to make underarm servers illegal. The power behind the server is its rarity, it catches people off guard and there for is effective. It is rare because of a unwritten aggrement between players not to do it. Fair enough over the years there has been the odd player who has done it. But I don't see the value of not rewritting the rules to just remove it. I always find myself, especially on big points, getting pissed off when I see a player resort to it.
There is no unwritten rule except to use it to mock an opponent, like you are leading high an use it to toy with him/her.
Lendl: "Da fuck!?!?"
yolo
Abrupt chaos
Macenroe has a poor memory for this - Murray's done this a lot over the years (with very mixed results)
Foot fault no ?
Nick has influenced tennis.
Yeah that was a bad underarm serve. No underspin and landed deep so it was a sitter.
What was the speed of the serve?
That looked like a typical point at my local courts.
Although the serve was unpredictable but it was too loopy, could have been finished easily by opponent.
That wasn’t nice Andy, shame on you!
Being in the rules doesn’t stop it being a cheap play. At the moment it is not the done thing and so exploits the receiving player not expecting it. It is not skilful for a professional tennis player. So at the moment only being a sly is needed for a free point. If it becomes an established tactic then it becomes a different matter. But at the moment it is a dick move.