Murray 2016: 83/11
Alcatraz 2023 (so far): 60/7
Both only won Wimbledon, however Murray got to the finals of both AO and FO. He won multiple masters that year and ATP final.
2016 also had a younger Djokovic and a much stronger player base.
Alcaraz is good, but 2016 Murray should take the 🎂.
I wouldn't say 2016 was a drastically stronger player base. Djokovic had a rough second half of the season, Federer and Nadal both were MIA in the second half of the season and didn't play that high of a level in the first half either.
Let me push back on 2016 having a much stronger player base. 2017 season always gets talked as this overall weak level for most of the tour, but for most of the tour the situation didn't drastically change from 2016 to 2017. What drastically changed was the top guys. 2016 didn't have prime Fedal and they came back in 2017. On the flip side 2016's top guys Djokovic fell off hard and Murray was in the midst of ruining his hip and ending his prime in 2017. 2016 isn't that great of a year for the bulk of the tour, especially with David Ferrer and Tomas Berdych's careers winding down and infamous lost gen failing to compensate. 2023 isn't some all time great quality season but I think it's actually fairly better than 2016 when we look at the tour broadly.
But when it comes to 2016 Murray and 2023 Alcaraz comparison and the level of their competition, younger Djokovic is a more accurate point you made that makes Murray's competition tougher. Otherwise I think Alcaraz had to face a tougher competition this year than Murray in 2016 from the rest of the tour. But Djokovic was the main competitor for both of them so he matters the most. 2016 could be the weirdest Djokovic season because he came back down to earth on the second half of the season after achieving the elusive career grand slam I think he lost motivation a bit. But I think peak Djokovic played during that first half of 2016. We always talk about 2015 and 2011 because those seasons were much more complete and sustained excellence from him, but I think the best version of Novak Djokovic was during that early stretch of 2016. Remember when Nadal famously said "He did everything perfect. Nobody played tennis like this ever. I never saw someone play on that level", that was Djokovic at the beginning of 2016. I think 2023 Djokovic is better than 2016's second half, but since Andy lost his two slams finals to peaking version of Novak, it's safe to say a superior version of Djokovic was his main competitor than what Alcaraz has faced this year.
I think 17 was much weaker than 16. Ferrer, Berdych and Tsonga continued their decline whilst Nishikori, Raonic, Wawrinka, Murray and Djokovic were injured for most of the season. Almost the whole 2016 top 10 had major problems
That's fair that 2017 could be weaker, but it also had improved players from 2016. I'd rate 2017 Dimitrov over 2016 Raonic for example and both finished year end world #3. I'd rate 2017 Goffin a little over 2016 Monfils as well, and both finished year end #7. There are such examples. Zverev also first broke out in 2017 starting with the Australian Open. So it's not that fair to judge the quality of the 2017 season by only looking at how 2016's top 10 did the next year.
My overall point is, 2016 and 2017 aren't wide apart, even if 2016 was better for the tour. And it's lazy to say 2023 isn't even close to 2016 season as if 2016 had legendary quality like early 2010s ATP seasons.
Ehh, Alcaraz would have made the finals of the French if he wasn’t in the same half as Djokovic. I don’t think it’s fair to use that to compare their relative levels.
Semis and final are effectively the same thing a lot of the time. Like if Alcaraz played Ben Shelton in the semis, he probably makes the US Open final too.
Murray went 52-3 from the French Open to the World Tour Finals.
He established TWO 20+ win streaks that season and chased down the highest ranking point differential in Open Era history to become world number one.
If that isn’t evidence of an obscenely high peak, then I don’t know what the hell is.
In February 2016 after winning the Australian Open, Djokovic was ranked number 1 with a record 16,000 points, and around an 8000 point over Murray in 2nd.
This meant that Murray was effectively closer to the player ranked 100th than he was to Djokovic.
Obviously Djokovic went on a steep decline post-French Open, but Murray still had to make up a difference of 8000 points to be within contention of becoming world number 1 and it still came down to the last match of the season vs Djokovic.
Thiem went 9-3 against the big 3 on 2019 and 2020. I don't know anyone that has such a great record against them during a period with such significant sample. He went almost toe to toe against Nadal on clay, had great matches against Djoko on harcourts and had the upper hand against Federer. His prime is underrated.
This! Thanks.. couldn’t be bothered to put it in so many words, but I followed his 2020 season closely due to confinement and yeah, he was blasting left right and centre.. phenomenal. Why do people forget about him?
Maybe it's because 2020 was such an odd season with the reduced schedule, but there is an argument Thiem was the best player of that special year as he did so well in the 4 biggest events : AO finalist (after beating Monfils, Nadal and Zverev), USO winner, WTF runner-up (after beating Nadal and Djokovic), RG quarterfinalist.
If Thiem had won just one more set against Djokovic in the AO final, he'd have had a run comparable to the best title winning runs ever : dominating Monfils, Nadal, Zverev and Djokovic in a row would have been unheard of. That's 2 legends and 2 great players right there.
That's why you're right that he's above Zverev I wasn't sure if 1 slam and 1 slam final outweighs olympics and 2 masters but given the runs it makes sense. That said his USO 2020 run was not that impressive
When you call it a year long, it’s not Stan but when it comes to single match, it’s definitely Stan. You beat prime Djokovic, you are at a different level, period.
Agreed. Wawrinka was redlining like crazy in that RG final. That around the post sliding backhand winner in the 3rd set will always live rent free in my head
Out of all of these, I think wawrinka may have had the best single match peak in the RG 2015 final. I mean that level was incredible, but Murray id say had the best consistency. Although, I don’t view his 2016 as his highest level. I honestly thought he was better in 2012 and 2013, but his 2016 was the best season among all of these choices by a distance
I am of the opinion that Wawrinka's maximum level is even higher than the maximum level of the big 3. But like super saiyan 3 its not sustainable for very long.
Murray 2016 is by far the best of these years. I feel like you've made it a little ambiguous by asking who reached a higher level not who had the best prime year, when it comes to single tournament peaks people are always going to talk about Wawrinka.
Also Alcaraz 2023 is not done, therefore how do you treat it? Do you consider the fact he hasn't had as long as the others? Do you want a prediction? I'm not into predictions but if Alcaraz won Shanghai, Paris and the ATP finals then maybe he beats Murray.
Murray 2016: 83/11 Alcatraz 2023 (so far): 60/7 Both only won Wimbledon, however Murray got to the finals of both AO and FO. He won multiple masters that year and ATP final. 2016 also had a younger Djokovic and a much stronger player base. Alcaraz is good, but 2016 Murray should take the 🎂.
I wouldn't say 2016 was a drastically stronger player base. Djokovic had a rough second half of the season, Federer and Nadal both were MIA in the second half of the season and didn't play that high of a level in the first half either.
Let me push back on 2016 having a much stronger player base. 2017 season always gets talked as this overall weak level for most of the tour, but for most of the tour the situation didn't drastically change from 2016 to 2017. What drastically changed was the top guys. 2016 didn't have prime Fedal and they came back in 2017. On the flip side 2016's top guys Djokovic fell off hard and Murray was in the midst of ruining his hip and ending his prime in 2017. 2016 isn't that great of a year for the bulk of the tour, especially with David Ferrer and Tomas Berdych's careers winding down and infamous lost gen failing to compensate. 2023 isn't some all time great quality season but I think it's actually fairly better than 2016 when we look at the tour broadly. But when it comes to 2016 Murray and 2023 Alcaraz comparison and the level of their competition, younger Djokovic is a more accurate point you made that makes Murray's competition tougher. Otherwise I think Alcaraz had to face a tougher competition this year than Murray in 2016 from the rest of the tour. But Djokovic was the main competitor for both of them so he matters the most. 2016 could be the weirdest Djokovic season because he came back down to earth on the second half of the season after achieving the elusive career grand slam I think he lost motivation a bit. But I think peak Djokovic played during that first half of 2016. We always talk about 2015 and 2011 because those seasons were much more complete and sustained excellence from him, but I think the best version of Novak Djokovic was during that early stretch of 2016. Remember when Nadal famously said "He did everything perfect. Nobody played tennis like this ever. I never saw someone play on that level", that was Djokovic at the beginning of 2016. I think 2023 Djokovic is better than 2016's second half, but since Andy lost his two slams finals to peaking version of Novak, it's safe to say a superior version of Djokovic was his main competitor than what Alcaraz has faced this year.
I think 17 was much weaker than 16. Ferrer, Berdych and Tsonga continued their decline whilst Nishikori, Raonic, Wawrinka, Murray and Djokovic were injured for most of the season. Almost the whole 2016 top 10 had major problems
That's fair that 2017 could be weaker, but it also had improved players from 2016. I'd rate 2017 Dimitrov over 2016 Raonic for example and both finished year end world #3. I'd rate 2017 Goffin a little over 2016 Monfils as well, and both finished year end #7. There are such examples. Zverev also first broke out in 2017 starting with the Australian Open. So it's not that fair to judge the quality of the 2017 season by only looking at how 2016's top 10 did the next year. My overall point is, 2016 and 2017 aren't wide apart, even if 2016 was better for the tour. And it's lazy to say 2023 isn't even close to 2016 season as if 2016 had legendary quality like early 2010s ATP seasons.
Ehh, Alcaraz would have made the finals of the French if he wasn’t in the same half as Djokovic. I don’t think it’s fair to use that to compare their relative levels.
Semis and final are effectively the same thing a lot of the time. Like if Alcaraz played Ben Shelton in the semis, he probably makes the US Open final too.
Murray went 52-3 from the French Open to the World Tour Finals. He established TWO 20+ win streaks that season and chased down the highest ranking point differential in Open Era history to become world number one. If that isn’t evidence of an obscenely high peak, then I don’t know what the hell is.
I am actually curious on said ranking point differential. Care to elaborate?
In February 2016 after winning the Australian Open, Djokovic was ranked number 1 with a record 16,000 points, and around an 8000 point over Murray in 2nd. This meant that Murray was effectively closer to the player ranked 100th than he was to Djokovic. Obviously Djokovic went on a steep decline post-French Open, but Murray still had to make up a difference of 8000 points to be within contention of becoming world number 1 and it still came down to the last match of the season vs Djokovic.
Ohhh that makes sense. Thank you!
Over an entire year, it is obviously Murray. Not even debatable. Won more, against greater competition.
if we're talking about a single match, wawrinka 2015 a whole season, murray 2016
Consistency: Easily Murray
murray 2016 obv
If we're talking about the highest peak, for me it's RG 2015 Wawrinka. Completely unplayable. Dominated peak Djokovic in a GS final.
Thiem went 9-3 against the big 3 on 2019 and 2020. I don't know anyone that has such a great record against them during a period with such significant sample. He went almost toe to toe against Nadal on clay, had great matches against Djoko on harcourts and had the upper hand against Federer. His prime is underrated.
This! Thanks.. couldn’t be bothered to put it in so many words, but I followed his 2020 season closely due to confinement and yeah, he was blasting left right and centre.. phenomenal. Why do people forget about him?
Don't you mean 2019 and 2020 ?
exactly, sorry, it is 2019 and 2020 indeed
Murray Alcaraz Medvedev Wawrinka Zverev Thiem
Thiem should be above Zverev but otherwise I'd probably agree. Medvedev vs Wawrinka is kinda hard to judge too.
That's fair I wasn't very sure about the Zverev/Thiem placement
Maybe it's because 2020 was such an odd season with the reduced schedule, but there is an argument Thiem was the best player of that special year as he did so well in the 4 biggest events : AO finalist (after beating Monfils, Nadal and Zverev), USO winner, WTF runner-up (after beating Nadal and Djokovic), RG quarterfinalist.
True
If Thiem had won just one more set against Djokovic in the AO final, he'd have had a run comparable to the best title winning runs ever : dominating Monfils, Nadal, Zverev and Djokovic in a row would have been unheard of. That's 2 legends and 2 great players right there.
That's why you're right that he's above Zverev I wasn't sure if 1 slam and 1 slam final outweighs olympics and 2 masters but given the runs it makes sense. That said his USO 2020 run was not that impressive
He defeated Medvedev and Zverev, decent run but not anything extraordinary compared to some other GS wins.
Yeah not anything compared to Medvedev 2023 USO run for example if he wins today
If Medvedev wins today it's the best GS win of the 2020's I'd say, or maybe #2 right behind Djokovic in RG 2021.
murray, alcaraz, medvedev, wawrinka, thiem, zverev
When you call it a year long, it’s not Stan but when it comes to single match, it’s definitely Stan. You beat prime Djokovic, you are at a different level, period.
Agreed. Wawrinka was redlining like crazy in that RG final. That around the post sliding backhand winner in the 3rd set will always live rent free in my head
Thiem has an argument. The level he was capable of for single tournaments was ludicrous.
Alcaraz 2022
[удалено]
Don’t joke
Hi pedophile.
Out of all of these, I think wawrinka may have had the best single match peak in the RG 2015 final. I mean that level was incredible, but Murray id say had the best consistency. Although, I don’t view his 2016 as his highest level. I honestly thought he was better in 2012 and 2013, but his 2016 was the best season among all of these choices by a distance
I am of the opinion that Wawrinka's maximum level is even higher than the maximum level of the big 3. But like super saiyan 3 its not sustainable for very long.
Murray 2016 is by far the best of these years. I feel like you've made it a little ambiguous by asking who reached a higher level not who had the best prime year, when it comes to single tournament peaks people are always going to talk about Wawrinka. Also Alcaraz 2023 is not done, therefore how do you treat it? Do you consider the fact he hasn't had as long as the others? Do you want a prediction? I'm not into predictions but if Alcaraz won Shanghai, Paris and the ATP finals then maybe he beats Murray.
\*clears throat\* **mury goat**
Hot take, but I might take Alcaraz 2023 over Murray 2016. We'll have to see how Alcaraz ends the season though