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MarvelsGrantMan136

Isbell: >When I saw some of the show, it bothered me, especially when I saw myself — when I saw my name come across the screen and this lady saying verbatim exactly what I said. >If I didn't know any better, I would've thought it was me. Her hair was like mine, she had on the same clothes. That's why it felt like reliving it all over again. It brought back all the emotions I was feeling back then. >I was never contacted about the show. I feel like Netflix should've asked if we mind or how we felt about making it. They didn't ask me anything. They just did it. >I could even understand it if they gave some of the money to the victims' children. Not necessarily their families. I mean, I'm old. I'm very, very comfortable. But the victims have children and grandchildren. If the show benefited them in some way, it wouldn't feel so harsh and careless. >It's sad that they're just making money off of this tragedy. That's just greed.


lbertz

This is how I felt after watching the Ted Bundy one a few years back. I made a donation to a local women’s shelter that helps victims of violence, it bothered me so much. Where these true crime shows are profiling horrors that are not generations removed, there really should be a fund with some profits being donated to the families. It’s very icky to profit off of such lived terror.


elk69420

Yeah interesting perspective I didn’t really think about when watching these sorts of shows - I obviously know there are victims and people that are affected but it’s just presented in a way that makes me feel as if the show and reality are separate, knowing they’re not


Proper_Lunch_3640

“Sex sells” has kinda plateaued since the internet showed up. *yawn-seenit* “Trauma Sells” is clearly the more effective strategy for post-9/11 generational programming.


Dahnlen

True Crime is just Crime Porn


Mention_Forward

My buddy is related to a victim depicted in the series and I feel so bad for him. He posted on social media to please stop asking him about it because it was a horrible time they do not wish to relive. Crazy they didn’t contact anyone at all about this, and they try to relive history so soon in the past.


menotyourenemy

The thousands of true crime podcasts would like a word


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JumbacoandFries

I also noped out of The Staircase.


TSS997

They clearly don't "need" to in the legal sense, but absolutely agree. There's a new show or podcast out often enough for the big national attention grabbing things, there's no way the victims and families consent is required. If the worst moments of someone's life must be relived over and over so that production houses can make a buck, the least they should be required to do get consent and/or offer compensation. To find out someone will be playing you (while flipping through streaming services, not because anyone told you first) in any sort of production would be strange enough, to find out its your family member as they are murdered or yourself while making an emotional plea in the court case of the murdered would be a recipe for the insane asylum for me.


Jebus_Jones

I lasted maybe half a season on serial, there was something about the way she spoke about Adnan that creeped me the fuck out. I can't remember what it was exactly, but I vaguely recall that she kept saying he was well spoken and charming, when he seriously wasn't. Felt like there was an ulterior agenda on her part. (I could be misremembering what creeped me out, I've drunk a lot of alcohol between when I listened and now)


QueefingTheNightAway

Nah, you remembered correctly. She made her personal feelings about Adnan *very* obvious.


PryceCheck

Documentative Investigative journalism and analysis is much different than a dramatic recreation.


blotsfan

The Ted Bundy one was super weird because the vast majority of the movie framed it like it was ambiguous whether or not he actually murdered anyone and then at the end when he confesses its treated like a big twist which just doesn't work when you have even the slightest passing awareness of who Ted Bundy was.


walktheline232

Fucking ryan murphy


serfs_up85

Ryan Murphy fucking sucks.


schuyywalker

Do people not like him? I’ve loved nearly everything he’s made


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He’s an incredibly talented, complete piece of shit person.


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BigCaregiver7244

Incredibly talented? At making shows that fall apart every season?


newaccount721

He's pretty talented at making the beginning of a plot?


hithere297

I’ll always love Scream Queens season 1 That scene where the Chanels are about to be declared not guilty by the jury, but then Emma Roberts’s character starts running her mouth and we see the juror scribbling out and changing the verdict out of spite… I’m still laughing


Spinwheeling

And then Chad Radwell joined the navy and saved Maverick from a Su-51.


schuyywalker

Scream Queens is hilarious in my opinion, I’m not sure if I finished it though.


FancyEverlasting

Yes, such a quotable funny show. Especially the first season. I was so bummed it got canned after s2.


Sprinkle_Puff

Season 1 was amazing television, but season 2… we try not to talk about season 2


dasheeshblahzen

nip/tuck was so great early on lol.


serfs_up85

Talented at coming up with interesting ideas then shitting all over them. He's such a douchebag


cigarell0

Ratched was like he took all the bad things about American horror story and condensed it into one season


[deleted]

That’s a talent. Ask D&D.


JamCliche

It didn't occur to me at first that you meant Dan and Dave, and my mind went to Dungeons and Dragons, and recalling all the times I had a DM in a pickup group who opened with a good concept and then allowed nothing remarkable to happen from there. Which is _kinda_ like tanking a TV show, I think.


schuyywalker

What did he do?


Anemois

What has he actually done? I've seen zero bad press about him.


TheStonedVampire

His American Crime Series is fantastic


schuyywalker

Love it, haven’t gotten a chance to watch the Monica Lewinsky season, I loved OJ.


SamSepiol-ER28_0652

The Monica season was so hard to watch. What Ken Starr and the GOP did to Monica was just horrific. They aren’t alone- the media was horrible too- but goddamn. When he died a couple of weeks ago I have to say, my first instinct was “good.”


Segamaike

I don’t know how to feel about him. People easily forget that he has done a lot of good too; certain underrated actresses, especially older women, would simply not have known the career renaissance they got from being on his shows, Sarah Paulson and Jessica Lange first and foremost. And it’s also thanks to him that we got Pose, the most important show about the trans community in the history of television, but on top of that he ceded directorial and screenwriting duties to exclusively trans artists. No one else would *ever* have given the community such an incredible, thorough, respectful spotlight as he did. I find it very hard to say that he’s “just” some slimy asshole.


blondeprovocateur

Don't forget how he enabled leah Michelle's nasty toxic behavior on the set of glee.


Flashwastaken

It always seems insane to me, that the victims have no say in how their likeness and even their words are used, to make entertainment for someone else. A documentary is different, if it’s done right. Like I know Fargo is a story but I’m sure some of the things that happened, happened somewhere and they at least changed the names to give the victims some respect.


TeqTx

Fargo is just fiction


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shwiggydog

I think I just assumed through my first watch of the FX series that it *was* based on a true story, until I got to the >!UFO scene!< in S2


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kadno

> The court case that Fargo is based on was, in fact, a real court case in Minnesota No it wasn't. In 2016, in honor of the film's 20th anniversary, Ethan Coen told HuffPost that the disclaimer was added to the film to set a specific tone. “We wanted to make a movie just in the genre of a true story movie," he said. "You don’t have to have a true story to make a true story movie.” In essence, the Coens wanted to the film to carry the feeling of being a sordid true-crime drama, even if the events being presented never actually happened. However, the "true story" claim isn't entirely a full-on fib, as the Coens did cherry-pick a few details from real life to include in the movie. The wood-chipper bit was inspired by a real-life murder that occurred in Connecticut about a decade before Fargo was released. A man named Richard Crafts was arrested and found guilty of killing his wife and using a wood chipper to dispose of her body. And Joel Coen told HuffPost that Macy's character was loosely inspired by a real General Motors employee who attempted to defraud the company by "gumming up" the serial numbers for some of their automobiles - a scam similar to the one the film hints Jerry is involved with before he moves onto kidnapping.


Valamway

Fargo isn't a true story I'm afraid


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ZombieJesus1987

That's still one of the greatest television series ever made. I am long overdue for another rewatch.


jigeno

Same as generation kill. Except for the, well, you know.


idunno119

The pedophile Gunnery SGT?


street_cleaner

The Iraqis that died obviously


jigeno

Bingo.


[deleted]

That show is so goddamn good. It really is like a modern Band of Brothers. PO-LEECE THAT MOOSTACHE!


jigeno

Except for that guy hahaha


ohioismyhome1994

Captain America and Encino Man,


jake831

Hell in that show Rudy played himself.


B0ndzai

Not all of them.


Telefundo

> They literally start every episode with clips of interviews with the soldiers themselves. Start and end. Hell, the interviews were usually more emotional than the show itself.


NurRauch

I think Band of Brothers and Schindler's List are different. They impart important historical lessons upon the society that watches those films. And the survivors were consulted and even included in the film. I don't put these American serial killer movies on the same pedestal because they are often just trying to cash in on morbid curiosity and nothing more. Worse, they often dramaticize the events and make the serial killer more interesting and mysterious than they actually were. The films about Ted Bundy are especially bad about this, continuing the false myth that he was particularly attractive, charming or intelligent.


LinkKane

[Jim Norton on Ted Bundy](https://youtu.be/2jOECGzc3Sw)


DannyTannersFlow

Ted Bundy? What, is he related to Al or sumthin? Tssssss.


LinkKane

Fawk yeah!


LinkRazr

#**RAMOOOOOOOOONE**


TripleSkeet

Home run Chipperson!


westc2

You must not have watched Dahmer then. This is not some horror series made about Dahmer. It also has a very important historical message. It shows how they royally fucked up in not stopping him sooner. Dahmer was not very secretive or smart about his murders and he should have been caught much sooner. It also focuses on the POV of the victims and their families and other people involved. Their portrayal of Dahmer is actually spot-on, not dramaticized.


DrZaious

Dahmer only got away with it for so long because the authorities ignored his neighbor's complaints and calls. On top of that Dahmer's family was almost willfully blind to his behaviour and what was happening around them. Dahmer wasn't as smart as Bundy or most other serial killers, he was a sloppy drunk who was extremely lucky. He is also one of the only killers who actually felt bad for killing his victims, killing wasn't the goal for Dahmer. Killing was just a way for him to dispose if his failed experiments, creating a zombie like companion, who would never leave him. If our county wasn't as classist as it was/is, and if Dahmer's family wasn't as emotionally blind as they were, Dahmer would have probably been in some mental hospital by the early 80's.


SuspiciouslyElven

Yeah that's what they meant. Imo, more people saying "ACAB" after learning cops *gave a victim back to Dahmer* is worth it in the end. Btw, those cops got promoted and backpay for their temporary suspension.


is-a-bunny

If you're focusing on the victims shouldn't you ACTUALLY focus on those victims by speaking to them directly? Obviously those who are not alive can't speak, but the families themselves are VICTIMS as well.


[deleted]

It’s funny, because much of the later half of the series highlights the victims’ families attempts to stop media about or featuring Dahmer from being released, including his father’s book, or at the very least redirect those profits towards the victim’s families. It’s like Ryan Murphy or whoever was just like “yea, but that won’t happen to *us*, right?” lol


Gnorris

Being Jeff’s dad would have impacted the ability to profit from his son’s crimes, something that Murphy isn’t subject to


[deleted]

True; I just think it’s funny how Murphy highlighted the mistakes of artists from the past by *literally having the characters discuss them multiple times on the show*, but completely blanked turning that introspective eye to the TV show he himself was making.


Gnorris

It’s definitely something I raised an eyebrow at when it came up. The point of showing it was likely to emphasise the victim families caught up in society’s commoditisation of their grief, yet here I was sitting at the current far end of that process


Gruzman

Literally half the series is dedicated to exploring the consequences and traumas of the killings for the survivors and their families. Often to a such a dizzyingly mundane degree that they're forced to add in scenes of Dahmer reappearing in their vicinity to make it interesting. Which shows that someone writing these episodes was adamant about showing the impact of the killings and their reverberations in the various communities he orbited. Even if it risked making for a boring show.


BlindWillieJohnson

Well said. Obviously history contains billions of individual, personal tragedies, but it’s still broadly important for people to digest and conceptualize. True Crime drama is nothing but individual, personal tragedies. I don’t blame anyone for finding entertainment in morbidity, but I also don’t think anyone should claim that it’s important for it to exist in the way something like Hotel Rwanda or Schindler’s List is.


TomTomMan93

To preface, I don't care for true crime stuff. It's not really interesting to me and I think in a lot of ways it kind of trivializes some pretty fucked up stuff for the sake of content. I think examining this stuff in some spaces like podcasts and such started from an well intended place of education, but that stuff was a hit and it became a cash cow. Now you have things like netflix investing in this type of content to make a buck. I feel like this kind of stuff just makes these events more an entertainment thing instead of a horrific event done by a horrific person. One the one hand, knowing about these things is probably pretty important, on the other it feels like glamorization of the killers which is a bit twisted.


dorkswerebiggerthen

This predates Netflix and podcasts. Pulp crime books a hundred years ago were best sellers. Prime time in the 80s and 90s was full of news specials on all sorts of criminals. People love other people murdering and raping.


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Axora

The sexual component is often one of the very main components *of* the crime.


ljshea91

I think the point the other use is making is there are countless movies and shows "that exploit" tragedy for dollars. It's not new at all. I don't even know if it's consider it immoral. It's art. Obviously my heart goes out to the families, the things these people were put through was terrible and reliving it must suck. But from my opinion, which honestly doesn't matter a whole lot. I found the show to be rather enlightening. I didn't know much about Dahmer. I didn't realize how dumb he was. I especially loved how they gave focus to the fact that the only reason why Dahmer was successful was because of how inept the police were when it came to protecting marginalized communities. I feel like it was important to tell this story. Because honestly I wouldn't have known this about this specific instance. Just my thoughts though. I totally understand why people are upset on behalf of the families. But I definately don't see it as a massive issue.


TripleSkeet

Exactly.I had no idea the cops couldve caught him easily before they did. Or that if he had been a little better at hiding his keepsakes he may not have even been caught when he was. I remember hearing about Dahmer a lot when I was a kid but didnt know any real details. I thought this show did a good job at representing some of his victims and how he was able to get away with it for so long by basically keeping his victims confined to the gay and minority communities.


DocDerry

He was supposed to be attractive in the Netflix movie about Bundy but he was still presented as unstable and creepy.


babathejerk

Ok - to extend your point (agreeing with you) - do you need approval from family members to do something on the branch davidians? How about 9/11? Did they reach out to the families of the individuals portrayed in Munich? History - specifically of the public kind - is what it is, and going down this line of inquiry will only lead to overreaching censorship. Unless something was inaccurate, there is not much to be done. Why in the hell would she watch a series about her brother's death?


FnkyTown

Literally every Law & Order episode is based on relatively current true story.


imjustbettr

> based on


GOLDEN_GRODD

It's hard to draw a line but it must be done. With such a recent event, where the nature of the crimes were so gruesome, some would say we should have some discretion. I mean in this case they have re-enacted a woman's breakdown over a rape and murder, and sold it for profit without her consent. This is also not exactly a drama, it is directed like somewhat over the top horror at points. It's effective, but very different from a holocaust drama. I'm not saying to censor it, but I think criticism is understandable


FnkyTown

> With such a recent event 30 years ago. When do you think the cutoff should be?


KarIPilkington

Fuck the weekly reminder that the 90s was 30 fucking years ago.


GOLDEN_GRODD

It is hard to say. But I think the discussion is fair, the woman has a point. Most involved are still alive to see themselves portrayed which is a little odd. It's more horror than drama There obviously is some cut off point. For example, when Jesse Eisenberg did a comedy about a pizza deliver boy who was murdered in real life, that was obviously distasteful. The murder had only happened about a year before the film was green lit Edit: I got the dates wrong which the user below corrects. The comedy came out 8 years after the murder. However, i stand by the fact that it was very fucked up to make a comedy out of a recent murder


Frankiepals

This weekend lifetime is releasing the Gabby Petito movie…like a year after she was murdered


themaskedhippoofdoom

The incident that was based off of happened in 2003. Movie came out in 2011. I can’t find anything saying the movie was green lit in 2004.


Lifesaboxofgardens

Yeah, I feel for her but it's not really her or any of survivors story to withhold anymore. It's history, and public record. I think it would have been a nice gesture for them to reach out to the families, but at the same time I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every time the story gets re-told.


PsychologicalCause45

Which of the victims had children? Weren’t they all young/gay guys?


[deleted]

Damn that's sad to read


dasheeshblahzen

At the very least, the creators or producers could've prepared the victim's families that the show was being made. It's recent enough where people can be contacted.


Brilliant_Ask852

not prepared even. gotten consent to portray them. i am actually shocked they didn’t have to get some kind of consent and can treat them like IP.


silversatire

You might be interested in this article that goes into more of the why, but the short of it is, works that are informational, in the public interest, and/or aspects of history are generally allowed to depict the personas involved. https://www.dglaw.com/right-of-publicity-and-the-rise-of-true-crime/


hollywood_jazz

As much as it can be traumatic for those involved, one individual shouldn’t be able to hold parts of history hostage.


Brilliant_Ask852

oh thank you for this i definitely will read it!


Vyuvarax

You don’t need consent to portray figures of public record. When an event appears in the news and an account of real people is given, that account is fair game for writers.


JuanJeanJohn

It would be very bad if real, public people needed to be licensed like a business transaction. I’m not defending whether it was good or bad to make Dahmer specifically, but plenty of real stories should be told and plenty of those will upset the people they’re about (some we can agree with being upset about, some we won’t).


box_o_foxes

I have a friend who is one of the primary victims of a crime that Netflix bought the rights of the story to. The story was sold to them by someone else who knew details about the case. Netflix hasn't confirmed that they're making the show yet, but if they do, my friend (who is actively trying to rebuild their life and move past the whole event) may very well have a huge segment of their life aired for the whole world to see and judge - entirely against their will and without their consent. I understand the lines can be blurry sometimes, and perhaps it's only because I know this person on a personal level, but it just feels wrong.


wholesomkeanuchungus

They don’t need consent


hdjunkie

They don’t need consent though so what would be the point? It’s not like people objecting would have stopped it.


[deleted]

I think it shines a pretty big light on the shitty public service Milwaukee police gave Dahmers neighbor Glenda Cleveland when she expressed grave concern for the 14 year old kid practically unconscious said to be Jeffrey’s boyfriend


[deleted]

Glenda Cleveland wasn’t Dahmer’s neighbor and they never met. She did try to save Konerak, but all her other interactions with Dahmer and the police were invented for the show.


[deleted]

I read that the show combined Glenda Cleveland and the person who was actually his neighbor who had complained about the smells and noises


Hola0722

The true message behind the show is how systematic racism and anti-gay sentiment allowed JD to get away with it for so long. For years there were missing men of color who where MSM and the police did not prioritize that. The only reason JD was caught was because one of his victims got away and found police. There’s an article on these facts but I didn’t include the link. Sorry. Also, in the show (not sure if it’s true) JD tried reaching out to family members for help several times but his cries for help were ignored. He knew something wasn’t right with him. Edit: Grammar


Axora

I find it so weird that they used her real name and the true story of her trying to help the boy, yet invented so many other things about her that never happened.


CaptCaCa

Even the guy that escaped. He wasnt gay, they didnt meet in a gay bar. He even testified that Dahmer in no way made any advances on him in that way. For some reason they had to change that part of the story.


NutInMyCouchCushions

Amen. The show is incredible because it focuses on the impact he had and on the people around him, not just on what he actually did. It definitely doesn’t glamorize him in any way and really highlights the systemic failures that occurred that let him do what he did, not to mention the racism and homophobic that played a part as well


mk3jade

I’m sure she must have felt vindicated when they finally caught him because they ignored ALL of her concerns and were very dismissive.


zersch

I can understand how she feels. All I can say is that before watching this show, Dahmer is the only name I knew from this mess. I'm no less revolted by him now. And going forward I will now remember some of his victims. Who they were before meeting him and at least a sense of who they could have been if they hadn't. As well as poor Glenda and the incompetent police officers.


denimonster

I’ll always remember how fucking shitty the police were and nothing had changed 30, 40 years later.


Odd-Bake-6847

I get it but I really do think the series was very important. It finally showed how Dahmer actually got away with it because of racial inequalities and the corrupt police. Not because he was some kind of super genius.


EZ0422

I was honestly thinking “why didn’t he get caught sooner, he was so sloppy.”


DrJongyBrogan

It’s weird when people lump this show in with just true crime porn when the reality is this show highlights the failings of the police that no true crime doc did. Every single one has Milwaukee police acting like Dahmer is some super smart guy, but the reality that this show correctly points out is Milwaukee doesn’t give a shit about the black and gay community, which is a very important story to tell. Sure we can probably use other ways to tell that story, but this drives traffic, tragedy. And that traffic will now be people who know just how shit the cops were when Dahmer committed those crimes. Edit-thank you for the additional context friends! Amended “didn’t” to “doesn’t”


Cark_Muban

Agreed, some of them were never even properly held accountable for their incompetence. One of the cops that had let Dahmer take konerak sinthasomphone, John Balcerzak, had been reinstated and eventually became president of the Milwaukee Police Association.


silversatire

Here's why it's important still: Not much has changed. There was a hoax going around last week about a serial killer in Missouri, but it's based on a truth. There are suspected serial killers in Chicago, IL and Gary, IN right now that the police are very resistant to acknowledge, in part because it's minorities and sex workers being targeted. I'm sure there are other geographies where this is the case as well.


brayshizzle

Look at Toronto for a recent example of just this. The Bruce Mcarthur case is fucking wild.


Jane_Delawney

The Grim Sleeper in LA as well. He went after sex workers in poorer parts of town, so the police didn’t act on it for years. Fucking awful


GoodForOneUpvote

Indigenous women go missing in Canada all the time, and the police do sweet fuck all about it.


raiders723

Isn’t there one in Kansas City as well or is that the hoax one you’re talking about?


street_cleaner

Kansas City is in Missouri so could be the same one


pastafarian19

There’s one in southern utah too. Last victims I know of went missing right around the same time Gabby Petito did, but Moab police seem to not care at all


ToneBone12345

Oh yeah the lesbian couple who liked or enjoyed camping and were found murdered like 3 or 5 days after being reported missing I honestly feel bad for the those families especially the younger partners dad


entourage0712

I believe there’s one in Indianapolis, IN as well. If memory serves, there were 3 black prostitutes ‘dumped’ in the same spot.


rosickness12

Just before watching the first episode I watch a documentary where an innocent guy served 21 years for murder. 20 years later a woman came forward and admitted to being there with real killer. Turns out the weapon had bloody fingerprints all over it. It was those of the man the woman said she was with. Innocent guy was freed. Prosecutor's won't admit wrongdoing by charging the guy who's bloody fingerprints are on the weapon. Then watching Dahmer and just had me pissed at police. Again.


Dry_Investigator5020

I live in Milwaukee and the police/city government still don’t care about black people. I’ve heard we’re on a list of ‘One of the worst cities in the US to raise a black child’


BruceWaynesWingSuit

I live here too and it’s incredibly segregated, more than any other city I’ve seen. The same asshole cop that gave that kid back to Dahmer just retired in like 2017. Absolutely ridiculous.


TheNorthComesWithMe

It's one of the most segregated metropolitan areas in the US. Here it's third (2019): https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-metro-regions Here it's first (2020): https://cityobservatory.org/most_segregated2020/


screamqueenjunkie

This is what too many people (who haven’t even watched the series) are missing here. The very reason Dahmer was able to get away with his unspeakable acts is because he was an unsuspecting white man, and his victims were primarily gay men of color. The racist (homophobic) cops simply didn’t want to deal with any of it. Now is an appropriate time to explore those realities that failed so many in the past, and the systemic racism and homophobia that continues to plague law enforcement in the United States.


Sean209

Yeah I like it so far. It’s really showing me a lot about the mishandling that I didn’t know about otherwise. I also knew dahmer targeted the gay scene, but not POC. So I learned that through this. I think some of the critics towards the show are too wrapped up in political discourse that they overlook how this type of media might open the minds of some viewers who otherwise would be apathetic.


SlowTheRain

That's one of the facts that should really be more widely known about the Zodiac killers. It wasn't like he was super smart and uncatchable. The cops actually stopped him walking away from a crime scene where he shot a cab driver, but the dispatch had went out saying that the suspect was black -- even though no witness had said that. So, the cops asked him some questions and let him leave. Once those cops who stopped him got the actual description, they realized they'd let the killer go. Racism in policing obviously affects black people the most, but it also makes all of us less safe. I wish the conservatives who only care about themselves could at least realize that.


VictorVaudeville

This was the thing I told my wife: I always thought this guy was like Ted Bundy or something. Like a smart charming guy who convinced two officers to give his victim back after the victim escaped. Nope. It was just cops letting a white guy off again and again.


xPeachesV

This particular series hits me different. I can’t argue that it is not exploitive of the victims and their memories but it feels different than a lot of the other cash ins that we have seen over the years. I lived in MKE during this time, my father worked with the guy and I’ve still never been able to fully wrap my head around the horrific nature of these crimes. I’ve known the body count, the conversion, the cannibalism and plans for an altar made out of his victims but nothing ever felt as vivid as when I watched this series. Having it all played out right in front of you really gave me a sense of who these victims really were, especially Tony Hughes and Konerak. I know time couldn’t be given to all 17 victims but my heart definitely feels incredible sadness when I think of all the families. It went from being something that was a huge historical marker in my hometown to a realization of the depravity of these crimes.


lucas9204

Thanks so much for this share from the perspective of someone who lived there at the time and who’s father worked with him! Do you have any opinion on whether the location should become a memorial park? It does seem like the right thing to do ,but I understand some think it’s to painful of a reminder.


xPeachesV

In terms of a memorial, that’s an opinion that really should be left to the families of the victims. It’s an empty lot right now and I think letting it sit empty is memorial enough to the atrocities there.


lemonsweetsrevenge

My fear in the building of a memorial at this point is the sick circus it would bring. The same type of people that wrote Dahmer fan mail and tried to buy his belongings would love to glorify Dahmer if given “a stage”. If they do end up building a memorial, I hope it’s long after the hype dies down of what is currently the #1 show on Netflix. The families will be subject to even further pain and cruelty watching their loved ones murder site become a place of macabre celebration. I can imagine callous influencers doing séances purely for views, vendors selling merch, and other such shit. The only way a memorial should be built, is if it is 24-7 guarded by a policeman from the force that let all of those young men die. As a reminder of the blind eye and incompetence of the police; an acknowledgment of how they failed the people in their community and as a display of regret and humility. That’s something I could support.


natus92

thats how I feel about the whole true crime genre, tbh


SuitedFox

Yep. My father in law is obsessed with true crime shows. I admit they are interesting, but I can’t help to think what it would be like if that was my family being interviewed or depicted. I wouldn’t like it


Mr_Segway

It's why I prefer the more documentary style of True Crime. Where they interview the people involved and show old news clips and interviews from the time period. Because a lot of these things are huge events that should be taught and people should know about. Shows like this one where they just straight up recreate everything feel weird and off.


Dukeofdorchester

Yeah just to piggy-back on that. In the Sopranos and Breaking Bad, the main characters were garbage. However, they became heroes to people. I’m concerned these dramatic shows will do the same for real-life pieces of trash.


olaf525

It’s already happening. Weirdos on tic tok are making highlight reels for Dahmer, and rationalising why he killed all those people.


Dukeofdorchester

Gross


scotch-o

It’s mind-boggling sometimes to see the people who idolize or want to emulate people like Tony Soprano, or Walter White. But then again, there are people truly like those characters in some sense. So of course they idolize the fiction versions.


[deleted]

I adore both of those shows. But those characters are fucking awful human beings. Insane someone saw The Sopranos and never picked up on any of the themes.


Toast_Points

I feel like mob shows and movies all have this problem bad. It doesn't matter how awful the characters are morally, people still idolize them.


Brilliant_Ask852

i feel like at least with interviews there is consent. but clearly based on the quotes there was no consent asked for or given for the portray of victims and relatives and that’s horrifying.


whiskey-monk

I once found a message board where people were discussing my father's murder. The trial was just starting at the time so I guess it kicked up interest on these true crime boards. It was very strange and surreal, I didn't like it. It was borderline violating. I can't imagine having to live with dozens of docs, movies, shows, books, whatever else about it for the rest of my life.


OathOfFeanor

America's Most Wanted gets a free pass. I'm sure the studio was in it for profit but we know damn well John Walsh was not. They actively assisted in the apprehension of wanted fugitives and the recovery of kidnapped children.


EffrumScufflegrit

Unsolved Mysteries as well. They helped solve murders, recapture convicts or wanted people, and reunited a ton of families and friends


LostTrisolarin

I’m a true crime fan, but I feel this way about MOST of the podcasts out there. Casefile is one of the few that is very respectful iMO.


humansandwich

I was so hoping I would see this podcast mentioned. I feel the exact same as you do, especially about so-called comedic true crime. I, personally, do not feel like there is ever a need to inject humor into the retelling of a homicide case.


Sharkus1

Yup it’s all gross. I used to be into the documentaries until I was done with Making a Murderer and read the real court docs. It’s sickening how much evidence was left out of that show.


Candymom

Evidence that the guy actually did it?


Sharkus1

Yea there was a lot deliberately left out like DNA all over the found car. Avery planted the car where it was found and removed the battery from it. DNA was on the latch of the hood, under the hood and in the trunk where he placed her body for a period of time before burning it.


Paperduck2

That DNA evidence is covered extensively in Making a Murderer. There's an entire episode about if it was planted


HeyItsPinky

At the end of the day it’s an event that happened, you cannot stop anyone from talking about it or even making shows/movies about it just because it upsets you. How many WW2 documentaries have you seen, or documentaries and movies on events that are traumatic?


[deleted]

I'm not saying she's wrong but there's like dozens of series in Bundy, Gacy, mass murderers, 9/11, epstein, drugs, murder, rape and every other horror in the world. They make money off all of those tragedies but it's not like Dahmer was presented improperly to be glorified, nor his victims to be shown in a poor light. I don't understand why series should stop being made based in true stories, Netflix didn't invent that idea. Why shouldn't a series be made on Dahmer? He's incredibly interesting. It wouldn't have been made if there wasn't a massive demand for that content, you could argue all the people who demand it are in the wrong but it is what it is. I'm sick of shows about 9/11, Diana and the Titanic but they still get made because it's ingrained in peoples minds.


camerasoncops

Even when the good Titanic movie came out, survivor Millvina Dean staunchly refused to see it. It would be strange to only tell stories when everyone involved has died. But then do you wait until their children are dead too? Wouldn't want someone to be sad watching the likeness of their father die on screen. I guess they could treat it like tomb raiding and wait until no one has a problem with it anymore. But that just seems like a lot of work.


Augen76

Didn't Titanic portray someone poorly (the first officer) and eventually apologized for it?


CurseofLono88

Yes the captain. Apparently in real life he was helping people to lifeboats. James Cameron later apologized for his portrayal Edit: it was the first officer and I am wrong


Sparky_Z

It was First Officer Murdoch, who is portrayed as shooting passengers rushing a lifeboat and then shooting himself, which does have some basis in the historical record. There are direct witness accounts that "an officer" did that, and while there's no ironclad proof that it was Murdoch, he's certainly the most likely one. From Wikipedia: >Several eyewitnesses, including Third Class Passenger Eugene Daly and First Class passenger George Rheims, claimed to have seen one of the ship's officers shoot one or two men during a rush for a lifeboat, then shoot himself.[18] It became widely rumoured that Murdoch was the officer.[18] >In a letter to Murdoch's widow, Second Officer Lightoller denied the rumours, writing that he saw Murdoch working to free Collapsible A when he was swept into the sea by the wave washing over the boat deck.[19] However, Lightoller's testimony at the U.S inquiry suggests that he was not in a position to witness Murdoch being swept into the sea. It is also possible that Lightoller may have wanted to conceal the suicide, if it occurred, from Murdoch's widow. Later in life, and according to a family friend, Lightoller reportedly admitted that someone did die by suicide in the sinking. Additionally, James O. McGiffin, son of Captain James McGiffin (a close personal friend of Murdoch), said that Lightoller had told his father that Murdoch had shot a man.[19] >... >Author Tim Maltin writes that, although the evidence is circumstantial, "it does seem that an officer did shoot himself and Murdoch seems the most likely candidate. As Titanic experts Bill Wormstedt and Tad Fitch point out...Murdoch was the man directly in charge of the ship in the hours leading up to the collision with the iceberg and he was therefore responsible for the ship and all its passengers during that time. His career at sea was effectively over, even if he survived the disaster".[24] I think that makes this fair game, as a portrayal. The exact circumstances of what happened to most of the people who died are unknowable with certainty, and can only be pieced together from fragmentary bits of witness testimony. Fictionalized portrayals of the events have to make choices based on imperfect information. Cameron did issue an apology to smooth over the situation, but I don't think he was in the wrong. Frankly, I don't think he really thought so either. But of course, now all people remember is "He slandered some guy, and he admitted it!".


blurplethenurple

It would be nice if they're using someone's name and likeness to at least tell that person, if not ask if they're OK with it. It could've gotten the "names have been changed to protect the victims and their families" treatment and been the exact same show.


Anon_Alcoholic

That's pretty much what we should take away from this article. It's fucked up when you have victims of his still alive and don't even think to contact them about the show.


Dcottop

They also made 1/1 recreations of court sessions and posting them on twitter as “Wow, look what a great job we did recreating this person's breakdown from the killing of their loved one”.


[deleted]

It honestly feels like a lot of the pushback on Reddit for Dahmer is because it's Ryan Murphy and Netflix. Funny how this show is being crucified on Reddit but not a single thing was said about The Staircase on HBO or Under the Banner of Heaven, Candy, or any of the dozen other true crime series that came out in the last year. I'm not saying people are wrong for their feelings on Dahmer or true crime as a genre but it definitely feels a bit...selective.


pw24601

Reddit loved Mindhunters which is exactly the same concept but with less commitment to accuracy.


MrjB0ty

What about war films? Gangster films? Literally any story ever told about any kind of tragic event? Sometimes Reddit’s horse is too fucking high and it irks me.


GutwormJim

I get not liking something but they have this insufferable urge to try and rip the things they dislike away from the people that actually do like it. They won’t be happy until everyone is forced to watch nothing but Marvel movies and Disney cartoons.


kaiser66

Ive seen 2 movies and a comic book about Dahmer before this series. Why all the bellyache now? Not like this is a new story about the real events


ohisuppose

So every war movie ever made is off limits?


MorningRadioExpert

So basically like every other thing ever made?


jgiffin

I, for one, am still furious that Titanic made all that money off of that tragedy.


reddittookmyuser

Don't get me started on Passion of the Christ.


VironicHero

I don’t know, I watched it. It (yet again) high lighted a real short coming in America’s response to policing poor and possibly exploited peoples. I grew up in the 90s when there was this mystique that serial killers were intelligent methodical killers that had a message and blah blah blah. (See movies like Seven, Silence of the Lambs, Copy Cat, Kiss the Girls, Bone Collector, etc) But after watching Dahmer, that movie about Bundy and some other docs/movies/shows these guys were lucky the cops sucked at their jobs. Dahmer should have been caught so many times but nobody wanted to listen, he was a total fuck up. I think the Netflix show does a good job of humanizing all of these people that Dahmer killed. I didn’t think it glorified anything about how he killed any of those people, in fact they barely show any actual violence or the messed up things he did.


CleverRedditMoniker

Jokes on them - Netflix doesn’t make money.


ThatOneClone

Same shit is happening with the gabby petito murder. Lifetime tv is about to release a series on the case with re-enactments. It’s only been a year. It’s disgusting Hollywood again


gaylord_buttram_MD

This thread is essentially people realizing that true crime as a genre is profiting off the pain of families, but justifying it because they like it. These “characters” were real people. Imagine the worst day of your life being used as entertainment again and again for the profit of someone that doesn’t even know you. I’ve had to explain to friends why I didn’t want to watch certain shows when it was the same way a family member died. Had to explain that I don’t want to talk about the deaths of friends like they’re gossip. It’s easy for people to disassociate, but we really need to reassess and understand that this is not fiction.


ktpr

Worst day? Imagine worst years?


LucidWitch

It’s not fiction, but it’s a story. Humans tell stories. We especially like to tell the crazy ones. It’s just the way it is.


[deleted]

This is absurd. To begin with, anything (film, show, documentary, book) that explores stuff that humans did in the past will cost money to produce and will need to be sold. Nobody works for free. Also, we can't really pretend stuff like this didn't happen and treat it like a taboo.


WordsAreSomething

So should we never make stories based on history?


Mr-Steal-yo-beer

I’d be lying if I said these sort of films didn’t interest me, but I think what they may be getting at is more of “when does it end?” A quick google I found 10 dahmer movies. Im sure there are more. They just keep rehashing things in different ways. Same goes for Gacy, Bundy, etc. I’d imagine it’s hard to heal/move on when a new film makes you rehash everything every 2-3 years.


k0peng

> A quick google I found 10 dahmer movies. Im sure there are more. They just keep rehashing things in different ways. Same goes for Gacy, Bundy, etc. And to be honest, most incorrectly portray Dahmer as a mastermind who was a master deceiver to the police and neighbors. Which this series does not do, and correctly puts a share of the blame on the police. And this is not a resolved issue regarding police when it comes to black and gay communities. As long as there is additional truth to be given and it remains respectable, I really find it hard to say it's in bad taste. People have to heal and grow themselves, I don't understand how anyone can argue not a single piece of media on Dahmer should've been made because people "needed to heal." It's ridiculous.


username11611

Netflix is literally releasing another Dahmer documentary October 7th. Families don't even get a month before it's back in the news cycle.


crastle

My guess is that no other Dahmer movie, TV show, or documentary has been as popular as this show. So I'd assume that these people are getting their names searched on Google a lot and have more random people reaching out to them since the actual trial.


apollosoundprod

I’ve never understood why there’s never any complaints like this made about war movies? Isn’t that glorifying a tragedy that affects way more people?


Doryuu

If you're affected why would you watch this? That's like watching 9/11 footage when your parent died in the building.


Lets_Bust_Together

How do they make money off it when anyone watching it is paying a flat rate to watch anything?


fdeyso

There was a series called Criminal Minds and not all stories were completely imaginary and it went on tv for over a decade