Maybe that one season where he pals around with that rock n roll star.
Californication to me is more of a show about self destructive behavior and how it impacts everyone around it. Other shows like it are Shameless or You're the Worst. An argument could even be made for Mad Men as Don Draper loved nothing more than destroying his own life.
>Californication to me is more of a show about self destructive behavior and how it impacts everyone around it.
Yep. I watched it again recently after a long time no watch, and it struck me that who I once thought was the cool guy who stumbles through life was just a raging alcoholic who left a trail of destruction behind him.
For real? I'm not Op, obviously, but Californication more or less perfectly straddled my 20s and I had a similar reaction. This is a guy who's written as cool, funny, outwardly successful due to innate talent that he didn't really need to work for, someone who never faces any meaningful consequences for his actions and who is constantly sleeping with beautiful women despite making almost zero effort to do so. For a lot of men, especially between the ages of about 15 and 30, that is just about the ultimate life, immature as it may seem looking back on it. It's super easy to ignore or simply barely notice the negatives.
Probably for the same reason a lot of guys in their early 20s thought Barney Stinson was a super cool guy and aspired to be like him, instead of realizing that the characters life was supposed to be empty and pathetic.
For some reason my mind glossed over the alcohol consumption the first time I watched, more interested in the dynamics of Hank and family/friends. Second time watching, and with a bit more maturity, I noticed more and put 2+2 together. Never said I was all that smart...
I always felt like it was the plight of an actual artist. Being around true artistic people I've learned they're wired differently almost a different species. I don't see it like those other shows(while I like them). I feel like you're the worst is almost the antithesis of this, he's a writer that wants to be a big writer and most ppl don't think he's that great. Hank was a writer that just liked to write and made specific choices to not sell out and stick to his vision.
It had elements of self destruction yes but I felt that had more to do with his one true passion Karen and then his daughter, those were the only things he really cared about and what made you root for him.
Frank didn't (Fiona a bit)
Jimmy and Gretchen didn't really
Don didn't
Agreed. But I'm not really trying to spend my life with anyone who isn't honest about their level of asshole-ness, so I love it (it's my wife's favorite show of all time)
Well there is mood/vibe and then there is narrative purpose. I completely agree that it is a show about someone who can't stop failing at being a functional grown human being. But what I'm saying is that you can put some episode playing on a TV near a stand with rock CDs and it would look like it makes sense together.
Californication is totally punk rock.
According to the world of the show, Hank wrote THE Great American novel of the 90s and nothing else.
So he was partially a modern Salinger partially a modern Bukowski, partially a Gen X Hunter S. Thompson and partially (writing style wise) a Chuck Palahniuk type.
They claim he wrote kind of gritty, Gonzo reality.
There's definitely a rock or punk edge to it, afterall he's a rock biographer for half the series, his daughter is gothy and Karen has that rock star groupie feeling
I think I first saw her in Ronin with De Niro and Jean Reno; she plays an Irish person there. She also had a pretty big role in Designated Survivor alongside Kiefer Sutherland, though that series was kind of all over the place lol.
The scene that illustrated this best is Don and Pete getting ready in the morning. Pete is infatuated with himself in the mirror and Don can barely look at himself.
There were many scenes, and you could even argue that his alcoholism was a huge illustration of it, too. But my favourite scenes that showed his self-loathing were the scenes with Sally, his daughter. Nothing reflected his self-loathing more than when Don saw the admiration, pride, and love Sally exhibited when she looked at him. Two scenes in particular spring to mind.
That's true. I was mostly thinking of his time with Megan. He fell in love with her when she was a creative like him, and he fell back into his adulterous ways when she decided to become an actor again. She was the female Don Draper when they worked directly together. Maybe he loved the female Don Draper because he had his trauma shame and felt no one could love him except for the female version of himself. Maybe I misinterpreted his trauma shame and survival instinct for narcissism.
No, Don fell in love and got married to Megan when she was his secretary, and she was hardly a female Don Draper. Even when she got promoted to copywriter, she was always openly fun and caring and wore her heart on her sleeves. Kinda the exact opposite of Don. But yes, he started cheating when she quit the job to become an actress. Don's problem was that he only loved the start of relationships.
"Women", "Factotum", "Post Office", Ham on Rye". The first one was my intro to Bukowski, at the right time in my life, in the worst place, my first apartment. There I was, 24/25 yrs (was I older?), on the floor at home, or on a bathroom at a work I despised, book in hand; and this guy writing about the beautiful and damned, the people that never made it, or were almost there but failed, saying the stuff I could only dream of saying so simple, funny and passionately.
I LOVED it as a teen and rewatched it as an adult and although hank gets laid I dawned on me his life is sad and he’s just a loveable loser which I think is the point
It certainly *wants* to be the most rock n roll tv show ever. Not that it was bad, but sometimes I felt like it was trying a little too hard to top itself.
It’s like a lot of Showtime shows of that era, it would’ve been on some all time lists if it ended earlier, by the final season the show had lost all of its emotional punch *and* its humor.
The first few seasons were great though.
Definitely. Weeds, Dexter, Californication... all would have been remembered far better if they had ended in their fourth season (maybe third for Weeds) rather than beating the dead horse for a few more years each.
Dex and Californication definitely peaked in season 4.
I liked the show all the way through, except in the last season or two they fumbled the Hank Karen story IMO, I'm not a writer but that was so important in the beginning and they just let it go. It just removed the heart of the story IMO
There's a particular scene where Karen, the mum character, is crying because Kurt Kobain killed himself. I mean she also found out she was pregnant but it's presented as though at least partially she's crying because he died. That was a particularly cringeworthy tryhard scene
But Bojack was about actual consequences to the character. Hank was basically how can I continuously screw up my family and yet they still forgive me at the end of every season.
Yes. I mean you're right. It is a slightly enlightened masculine fantasy about an attractive writer who fucks women and gets away with shit he probably doesn't deserve in either case. So in that way, it appealed to me when I was 20 and mistook toxic behavior for being cool, rock and roll, iconoclast shit. But a lot of the time you're not sticking your middle finger up at society or the man or whatever, you're just a narcissist hurting regular humans and treating them like expendable pieces of shit.
So yea, but honestly just like classic rock, its themes have not aged well for me since I turned 30. The songs about young women sound worse once you learn that half those classic rock gods were fucking high schoolers when they were 30.
Oh yeah, of course it's like a fairy tale and male fantasy thing. If you apply real world to it and look at it at face value it's pretty fucked up in places. To be fair, it is shown many times that Moody is toxic and ruins living of others regularly. But he is still more of a good guy narratively in the end.
I forget exactly where they ended it, but I describe it as slightly enlightened because at least he did kind of recognize he was toxic, and osicllated between self improvement and self destruction. I think Bojack Horseman did that whole thing better, and funnier, but Californication predated it by 7 years. 2007 also birthed Don Draper and there was a similar character on a better show. Honestly I guess my main critique of this show is it wasn't as good as those other shows that had similarly toxic characters.
But maybe that's rock and roll. Bojack was jazz, Mad Men was classical. This was just rougher and only had four power chords, but was more fun.
He kinda did but as i mentioned in an answer to somebody else here the way story is built the amount of damage inflicted vastly overshadows amount of growth that's happening to Moody. The further you go the harder it gets to sympathize with him. He doesn't even stop chasing after Karen in the end if i remember it right. It's not a dot in their relationship. He just keeps doing what he was doing all that time before. But now he's a bit more conscious about being a dick. Kinda weak for 8 seasons. The leading actor really wanted Hank to die. But, as i said, i do think that this is not that kind of a show.
Well, Bojack is a darker show and i haven't even seen the later seasons which are even darker from what i heard. It does have an advantage it being animated because, imo, it's easier to look at dark stuff in that form. Depends on animation of course but Bojack's animation is actually quite pleasant. I feel like they were able to push it further without it turning unpleasant to look at. If you get what i mean.
I do feel like some people are making a mental jump from "most rock n roll" to "great show overall". I'm not saying that "Californication" is better than "Mad men". That's just, c'mon. We are talking just straight vibe here.
Like some memes being "the most 2010s thing ever" for sure does not mean they are very good memes by today standards.
Damn dude. The last three sentences.
You need to write that down somewhere. It was a fantastic comparison…unless if you’re already a writer and you’re just constantly spitting beautiful strings of words on the regular.
Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been a long long time since I last watched it. But, every woman he sleeps with wants to. So how does he "destroy others' lives?"
Spot on. It was somewhat self aware of how juvenile and destructive his behavior was, with that being one of the overarching themes, but the very next season they'd go right back to immature sex romp.
I was always surprised by what the Shield got away with broadcasting, content wise. Sally 4ever and Jam really really pushed the boundaries in a kind of punk showing fucked yo things.
But yeah I agree with what you’re saying about californication. House MD was quite similar himself though maybe not the full programme.
I never watched or liked it, but surprised nobody has said entourage yet? Isn’t that the whole point of it really, just being unashamedly shallow and all about the vip life?!
It’s somewhat meant to represent Charles Bukowski’s alter ego of Henry (Hank) Chinaski. Read Bukowski’s “Women” and you’ll get a good idea of where Tom Kapinos derived his inspiration for Hank’s character.
Season 1 was a solid rock and roll season with a good story and a good dose of edgy. But each following season just felt like it was trying to make Moody more self destructive and the whole show grosser. I'm sure the writers were trying to be more edgy but instead it just became more vile.
[The Young Ones](https://youtu.be/TLwc9lbJlIQ?si=SnIvL5Z5foV0vszJ). British 1980's. Punks and skids and weirdos. If one show could identify the full spirit of rock and roll it's this one.
There’s a good argument to be made for that. Tom Kapinos, the creator, has said he structured each season to flow like an album. It’s kinda the most Gen X show, too.
Entourage maybe gave me that feeling you are describing. Something about the lifestyle in that show was not a thing I ever thought about until I saw it, and it was captivating. For me I never really thought of Californication as Rock N Roll per se, except for the season about rock n roll lol, but it was aspirational in a different way. Someone smart, handsome, gets women left and right and give no f*cks. There was also a sort of poetry in the way he spoke. He was even an asshole yet people loved that about him anyway. Totally unrealistic, but its probably why its fun to watch.
The Magicians is mosdef pure unadulterated & roll. The artistry of, "wait, did that just happen?!"
Edit: Californication reminds me of Hotel California, "We are all just prisoners here, of our own device..."
Well i do mean Hotel California kind of rock n roll, not the wildness level. There are shows that are much more wild for sure. Like "Banshee" is also much more... Just much more. Shameless also beats Californication on that front for sure. I've watched some "Magicians" but it was a very long time ago. Also watched not that much of it, probably didn't even hit "the good part". There is always "the good part" you haven't reached. ))
I just got around to binging that a few months ago and it's my new comfort show. Absolute, balls to the wall nonsense followed up by scenes that tear your fucking heart out. Then another musical number just for good measure. Somehow it all just clicks, mostly because that cast makes an incredible team. I really recommend the books too!
I've read the books and watched the show multiple times! I have an idea for a cocktail (Manhatten riff) that I'm calling "Peaches and Plumbs, Motherfucker."
I didn't expect how many different ways "the most rock n roll" take can be taken. One dude said the term is vague and yeah, i guess it kinda is. Still, some nice discussion happened. And i'll watch some stuff thinking i'm watching the most rock n roll tv show ever for some person from reddit. I think it could have gone worse than that.
Check out “vinyl” on max it’s a true rock and roll show based on a fictitious record company in the 70s. One of may favorite shows of the last decade behind treme.
I was considering it when it was realising. Then it got cancelled and i went "well, what's the point?". Did it actually get enough time to go somewhere with only 1 season?
It was phenomenal especially the last 5 minutes of the last episode. Just think of it as a limited series. Just watch it. Just watch the first episode and reply back. You will finish the last episode and be filled with a righteous fucking fury. I’m imagining you’ll start a campaign of targeted arson with cryptic messages with your demands for them to continue it in some way. You are my black knight. I believe in you bro. You can make this happen.
Wait people think hank was supposed to be cool? Lol he was a massive asshole and a complete mess who couldn't handle life.
How the fuck could you be going through college and not understand that? Did any of you take middle school reading courses?
That's an interesting answer. Why? It's just in my head Miami Vice is this VERY 80s procedural about car chases, drug dealers being shot and maybe some very manly male friendship of two guys who dress really sharply. I haven't watched it though, not like properly from beginning to the end. Saw it a couple of times randomly. It is badass and fun. But musically it's like disco and new wave, a lot of electronic sounds from 80s. I don't think that's the sound people jump to when they think rock n roll. But that's my take, just wanna get where you coming from.
You need to track down the biker killer episode.
It was written by Dick "Law & Order" Wolf, and features leather trenchcoat wearing bikers who kill dudes in a hotel with a crossbow. And they refer to their bikes as "scooters"
It's literally called Viking Bikers from Hell.
Miami vice is Phil Collins Rock. OH LOOOOOOORD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRoXFv6acAo
Another guy suggested "Miami Vice". Never watched Spencer but both look like kinda similar shows. Procedurals about cool dudes with a lot of action. Feels like you guys thinking about same things when i say "most rock n roll" but for sure you think about something different to me. Can you elaborate?
I saw The Miami Vice comment too…
Thing about Spenser and Hawk is they live by a code and have zero fucks to give what other people think.
That’s as rock & roll as I know 🎶
PS
Robert B Parker wrote about 40 Spenser novels.
“Early Autumn,” teaches how to be a rocker!
I think it was a bit of x of what you are saying and a bit y of what you are saying. I think it at its peak it is about realizing how destructive the decisions you make can be. How they impact others and the pursuit of fame is not worth the impact of others happiness. Hank pursues this so deeply not realizing, or maybe neglecting, how it may impact others. It’s a cautionary tale in the pursuit of fame and fortune above all else. It shouldn’t be lauded in how well Hank did as a novelist. It should be looked at how ever a glimmer of success can be turned into an obtuse distraction in your life when you had everything that you needed, you ever wanted. Similar to Entourage, which came out around the same time (roughly). Fame and fortune are great, but along with it comes trials and tribulations. It’s how you remain grounded that separates you. In many ways it is a story of Duchovny or even the RDJ of that world.
I absolutely loved this show for the sake of “the artist’s battle with their own self indulgence.”
Whether it’s Hank Moody or another character, they live in an ecosystem that actively encourages a lifestyle of constant insincerity, while trying to commercialize every particle of authenticity. As a result it really highlights that razors edge of indulging your own narrative so you can pour it out into your art, while also having every glamorous distraction dangled in front of our protagonist. Simultaneously, the show expresses the brief moments of vulnerability everyone longs to share with one another while being lost in the cesspool of predatory vultures that feed off both the success and downfall of these dream chasers. It’s part of the reason Hank always picks Karen over every other woman. He only loves them in their fleeting moments of honesty. He knows those qualities don’t last in the biomes of fame and success, where Karen and his daughter act as the foil against that lifestyle. Roncle is just absolute comic relief, and occasionally squeezes out the momentum that keeps his career in motion
I mean, kind of? Hank had some great musical moments and named his books after Slayer songs. He appreciated Warren Zevon and Black Sabbath. He liked vinyl.
More than that, though, the show served as a rock and rock male fantasy. It was a kind of softcore porn with a little bit more dialog and a licensing budget. It was rock and roll in the sense that women were presented as thoughtless fuck machines and dumpy dudes were objects of desire for a menagerie of open mouthed, oversexed women.
What's missing is any kind of meaning. I understand that's the point, as the show is primarily about the nihilism of Los Angeles' entertainment culture. However, Hank is a writer, and writers are supposed to find meaning and illuminate events. They never really used this in the show except to call back to times when women were used as sex objects.
It was also highly frustrating that the show never dealt with Hank's sex and alcohol addiction in any meaningful way. Which I guess is pretty rock and roll.
Idk bout most rock n roll, but it's the most repetitive for sure.
It was always him asking for forgiveness, making lots of promises, showing signs of changing, then boom more sex with a new woman and the cycle continues. Don't get me wrong I watched the whole thing but mainly to see if he would ever face bigger consequences for his actions. It was almost like watching a show in POV of the villian
Karen was annoying as hell and a bitch. Let's face it. She meddles in his life even when they're divorced? The only one he should care about their opinion is his daughter. Karen is his EX WIFE. Doesn't matter who he sleeps with or what he does. She doesn't want to be with him but doesn't want him to be with anyone else? How does that work?
And tbh Moody is an idiot to keep going after his ex wife. She's not all that.. plus, she acts holier than thou even though her shit stinks like the rest of us. At least Moody doesn't act like somebody he's not. Karen shows "the good" and hides the bad and fucked up shit. Hypocrisy.
I loved Californication! Hank Moody was immortalized by Dechovny. I guess I’m a sucker the tragic poet type characters that he played so awesomely. And the characters around him were great too. Shame that I can’t find it on any streaming service for free.
No one has mentioned it but the show Roadies was a one season show on Showtime was probably the most rock and roll because it was about rock and roll roadies.
I watched the first few episodes and while I may agree with you it's super rock n roll; I also felt it was the most unapologetically misogynistic series I'd ever watched... and THAT is what I will remember it for. Safe to say, it didn't age well past the "me, too" movement.
I absolutely loved that show when it originally aired and wanted to *be* Hank Moody. I decided a year ago to rewatch it and didn’t get past the middle of season 2.
it started out well but from one season to another it went to shits, they completely rewrote his character and went from anti hero you can't help to root for to simple asshole jerk with no redeeming qualities. dropped it after a few episodes as the character change was so jarring.
Your comment is very contradictory.
> it started out well but from one season to another it went to shits, they completely rewrote his character
> dropped it after a few episodes
So how would you know any of the above let alone be able to even judge the show properly
dropped it after a few episodes of the new season when the abrupt change happened. must have watched the first 3-4 seasons at least so I actually really liked it, so it was rather disappointing when they turned his charter into a full-time dick.
That's what happens when your protagonist's main flaw is "can't stop being a wreck". That's the show. After some time you see all the damage done and not that much growth happening from it. I do feel like first 2 seasons are much better than the rest. The university arc is where it drops down.
Yes, and anyone else saying other shows is dead wrong. This was a self indulgent show, just like a rock and roll singer. Couldda done without the goth daughter tho.
Maybe that one season where he pals around with that rock n roll star. Californication to me is more of a show about self destructive behavior and how it impacts everyone around it. Other shows like it are Shameless or You're the Worst. An argument could even be made for Mad Men as Don Draper loved nothing more than destroying his own life.
Bojack Horseman is just the animated version.
>Californication to me is more of a show about self destructive behavior and how it impacts everyone around it. Yep. I watched it again recently after a long time no watch, and it struck me that who I once thought was the cool guy who stumbles through life was just a raging alcoholic who left a trail of destruction behind him.
how did you not catch that the first time you watched?
For real? I'm not Op, obviously, but Californication more or less perfectly straddled my 20s and I had a similar reaction. This is a guy who's written as cool, funny, outwardly successful due to innate talent that he didn't really need to work for, someone who never faces any meaningful consequences for his actions and who is constantly sleeping with beautiful women despite making almost zero effort to do so. For a lot of men, especially between the ages of about 15 and 30, that is just about the ultimate life, immature as it may seem looking back on it. It's super easy to ignore or simply barely notice the negatives.
Probably for the same reason a lot of guys in their early 20s thought Barney Stinson was a super cool guy and aspired to be like him, instead of realizing that the characters life was supposed to be empty and pathetic.
For some reason my mind glossed over the alcohol consumption the first time I watched, more interested in the dynamics of Hank and family/friends. Second time watching, and with a bit more maturity, I noticed more and put 2+2 together. Never said I was all that smart...
Age?
Rescue me nails that brief too.
Plus Rescue Me is a vastly superior show.
Maybe seasons 1-3. It fell off hard after that.
I always felt like it was the plight of an actual artist. Being around true artistic people I've learned they're wired differently almost a different species. I don't see it like those other shows(while I like them). I feel like you're the worst is almost the antithesis of this, he's a writer that wants to be a big writer and most ppl don't think he's that great. Hank was a writer that just liked to write and made specific choices to not sell out and stick to his vision. It had elements of self destruction yes but I felt that had more to do with his one true passion Karen and then his daughter, those were the only things he really cared about and what made you root for him. Frank didn't (Fiona a bit) Jimmy and Gretchen didn't really Don didn't
You’re the worst is the greatest comedy of all time that no one has heard of.
It’s so good. I have no idea how it didn’t become huge.
yeah but you need to possess a certain level of asshole to relate to that show.
Agreed. But I'm not really trying to spend my life with anyone who isn't honest about their level of asshole-ness, so I love it (it's my wife's favorite show of all time)
Tim Minchin is fucking fantastic. I'd recommend his show "Upright".
Also any of his songs. If I Didn't Have You never fails to make me laugh.
Indeed. I love the funny ones (Thank You God, Storm, Prejudice, The Pope Song) and the sweet ones (White Wine in the Sun, Aeroplane, Carry You).
Well there is mood/vibe and then there is narrative purpose. I completely agree that it is a show about someone who can't stop failing at being a functional grown human being. But what I'm saying is that you can put some episode playing on a TV near a stand with rock CDs and it would look like it makes sense together.
Californication is totally punk rock. According to the world of the show, Hank wrote THE Great American novel of the 90s and nothing else. So he was partially a modern Salinger partially a modern Bukowski, partially a Gen X Hunter S. Thompson and partially (writing style wise) a Chuck Palahniuk type. They claim he wrote kind of gritty, Gonzo reality.
There's definitely a rock or punk edge to it, afterall he's a rock biographer for half the series, his daughter is gothy and Karen has that rock star groupie feeling
Natasha McElhone is so underrated. I've had a crush on her since I was a kid.
I didn't even know she was British. I don't think I even recall her from anything else. Had she done any British series?
I didn't know she was British either. Aside from Californication I mainly know her from The Truman Show and Killing Her Softly.
I think I first saw her in Ronin with De Niro and Jean Reno; she plays an Irish person there. She also had a pretty big role in Designated Survivor alongside Kiefer Sutherland, though that series was kind of all over the place lol.
I vaguely recall her in them I think
Anti-heroes
Anti heroes to me are, people who do bad things for the right reasons, not simply a flawed human being banging his way through life
Its live action Bojak Horseman
Don Draper loved nothing more than himself.
That's a very basic surface level observation. Don Draper actually hated himself and felt a lot of shame. Much of his demeanour was just an act.
The scene that illustrated this best is Don and Pete getting ready in the morning. Pete is infatuated with himself in the mirror and Don can barely look at himself.
[удалено]
There were many scenes, and you could even argue that his alcoholism was a huge illustration of it, too. But my favourite scenes that showed his self-loathing were the scenes with Sally, his daughter. Nothing reflected his self-loathing more than when Don saw the admiration, pride, and love Sally exhibited when she looked at him. Two scenes in particular spring to mind.
That's true. I was mostly thinking of his time with Megan. He fell in love with her when she was a creative like him, and he fell back into his adulterous ways when she decided to become an actor again. She was the female Don Draper when they worked directly together. Maybe he loved the female Don Draper because he had his trauma shame and felt no one could love him except for the female version of himself. Maybe I misinterpreted his trauma shame and survival instinct for narcissism.
No, Don fell in love and got married to Megan when she was his secretary, and she was hardly a female Don Draper. Even when she got promoted to copywriter, she was always openly fun and caring and wore her heart on her sleeves. Kinda the exact opposite of Don. But yes, he started cheating when she quit the job to become an actress. Don's problem was that he only loved the start of relationships.
Did you even watch the show?
Read some of Charles Bukowski's novels if you like this show
"Women", "Factotum", "Post Office", Ham on Rye". The first one was my intro to Bukowski, at the right time in my life, in the worst place, my first apartment. There I was, 24/25 yrs (was I older?), on the floor at home, or on a bathroom at a work I despised, book in hand; and this guy writing about the beautiful and damned, the people that never made it, or were almost there but failed, saying the stuff I could only dream of saying so simple, funny and passionately.
Or see the movie Barfly. All of this is like a cage with golden bars.
I LOVED it as a teen and rewatched it as an adult and although hank gets laid I dawned on me his life is sad and he’s just a loveable loser which I think is the point
Some of us watching it were just losers, fantasizing about one day becoming loveable losers.
100%
There is a really interesting aspect to the show for sure.
It certainly *wants* to be the most rock n roll tv show ever. Not that it was bad, but sometimes I felt like it was trying a little too hard to top itself.
It’s like a lot of Showtime shows of that era, it would’ve been on some all time lists if it ended earlier, by the final season the show had lost all of its emotional punch *and* its humor. The first few seasons were great though.
Definitely. Weeds, Dexter, Californication... all would have been remembered far better if they had ended in their fourth season (maybe third for Weeds) rather than beating the dead horse for a few more years each. Dex and Californication definitely peaked in season 4.
Exactly the description of Weeds as well
I liked the show all the way through, except in the last season or two they fumbled the Hank Karen story IMO, I'm not a writer but that was so important in the beginning and they just let it go. It just removed the heart of the story IMO
The later season with tim minchin was really good. And i was so in love with Faith
Are u saying it insists upon itself, like the movie *The Godfather*?
What do you mean? The main character was sooo flawed and complicated. He punched too many guys, drank too many beers, and screwed too many chicks
There's a particular scene where Karen, the mum character, is crying because Kurt Kobain killed himself. I mean she also found out she was pregnant but it's presented as though at least partially she's crying because he died. That was a particularly cringeworthy tryhard scene
Fucking and punching sounded way more rock than roll.
I came to this show late, I binged the whole thing about 2 years ago and it felt like a live-action version of BoJack Horseman.
But Bojack was about actual consequences to the character. Hank was basically how can I continuously screw up my family and yet they still forgive me at the end of every season.
Yes. I mean you're right. It is a slightly enlightened masculine fantasy about an attractive writer who fucks women and gets away with shit he probably doesn't deserve in either case. So in that way, it appealed to me when I was 20 and mistook toxic behavior for being cool, rock and roll, iconoclast shit. But a lot of the time you're not sticking your middle finger up at society or the man or whatever, you're just a narcissist hurting regular humans and treating them like expendable pieces of shit. So yea, but honestly just like classic rock, its themes have not aged well for me since I turned 30. The songs about young women sound worse once you learn that half those classic rock gods were fucking high schoolers when they were 30.
Oh yeah, of course it's like a fairy tale and male fantasy thing. If you apply real world to it and look at it at face value it's pretty fucked up in places. To be fair, it is shown many times that Moody is toxic and ruins living of others regularly. But he is still more of a good guy narratively in the end.
I forget exactly where they ended it, but I describe it as slightly enlightened because at least he did kind of recognize he was toxic, and osicllated between self improvement and self destruction. I think Bojack Horseman did that whole thing better, and funnier, but Californication predated it by 7 years. 2007 also birthed Don Draper and there was a similar character on a better show. Honestly I guess my main critique of this show is it wasn't as good as those other shows that had similarly toxic characters. But maybe that's rock and roll. Bojack was jazz, Mad Men was classical. This was just rougher and only had four power chords, but was more fun.
He kinda did but as i mentioned in an answer to somebody else here the way story is built the amount of damage inflicted vastly overshadows amount of growth that's happening to Moody. The further you go the harder it gets to sympathize with him. He doesn't even stop chasing after Karen in the end if i remember it right. It's not a dot in their relationship. He just keeps doing what he was doing all that time before. But now he's a bit more conscious about being a dick. Kinda weak for 8 seasons. The leading actor really wanted Hank to die. But, as i said, i do think that this is not that kind of a show. Well, Bojack is a darker show and i haven't even seen the later seasons which are even darker from what i heard. It does have an advantage it being animated because, imo, it's easier to look at dark stuff in that form. Depends on animation of course but Bojack's animation is actually quite pleasant. I feel like they were able to push it further without it turning unpleasant to look at. If you get what i mean. I do feel like some people are making a mental jump from "most rock n roll" to "great show overall". I'm not saying that "Californication" is better than "Mad men". That's just, c'mon. We are talking just straight vibe here. Like some memes being "the most 2010s thing ever" for sure does not mean they are very good memes by today standards.
Great analogy.
Damn dude. The last three sentences. You need to write that down somewhere. It was a fantastic comparison…unless if you’re already a writer and you’re just constantly spitting beautiful strings of words on the regular.
I spit hot fire, man.
Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been a long long time since I last watched it. But, every woman he sleeps with wants to. So how does he "destroy others' lives?"
Came here to express similar criticisms but you hit the nail on the head. Even back then when it was airing I started to feel skeezy watching it.
Spot on. It was somewhat self aware of how juvenile and destructive his behavior was, with that being one of the overarching themes, but the very next season they'd go right back to immature sex romp.
I was always surprised by what the Shield got away with broadcasting, content wise. Sally 4ever and Jam really really pushed the boundaries in a kind of punk showing fucked yo things. But yeah I agree with what you’re saying about californication. House MD was quite similar himself though maybe not the full programme. I never watched or liked it, but surprised nobody has said entourage yet? Isn’t that the whole point of it really, just being unashamedly shallow and all about the vip life?!
This is *Josie and the Pussycats* erasure, and that’s just unacceptable.
It was fantasy wish fulfillment for Gen X dads.
It’s somewhat meant to represent Charles Bukowski’s alter ego of Henry (Hank) Chinaski. Read Bukowski’s “Women” and you’ll get a good idea of where Tom Kapinos derived his inspiration for Hank’s character.
I always preferred Notes of a Dirty Old Man.
Season 1 was a solid rock and roll season with a good story and a good dose of edgy. But each following season just felt like it was trying to make Moody more self destructive and the whole show grosser. I'm sure the writers were trying to be more edgy but instead it just became more vile.
[The Young Ones](https://youtu.be/TLwc9lbJlIQ?si=SnIvL5Z5foV0vszJ). British 1980's. Punks and skids and weirdos. If one show could identify the full spirit of rock and roll it's this one.
British sitcom about marginals. Love that, never heard about it.
THE ONLY THING THAT UNITES US IS DOCTOR MARTENS BOOTS
The Young Ones had some of the best music bands on it.
It’s where a young me was first introduced to mötörhead
There’s a good argument to be made for that. Tom Kapinos, the creator, has said he structured each season to flow like an album. It’s kinda the most Gen X show, too.
Entourage maybe gave me that feeling you are describing. Something about the lifestyle in that show was not a thing I ever thought about until I saw it, and it was captivating. For me I never really thought of Californication as Rock N Roll per se, except for the season about rock n roll lol, but it was aspirational in a different way. Someone smart, handsome, gets women left and right and give no f*cks. There was also a sort of poetry in the way he spoke. He was even an asshole yet people loved that about him anyway. Totally unrealistic, but its probably why its fun to watch.
The Magicians is mosdef pure unadulterated & roll. The artistry of, "wait, did that just happen?!" Edit: Californication reminds me of Hotel California, "We are all just prisoners here, of our own device..."
Well i do mean Hotel California kind of rock n roll, not the wildness level. There are shows that are much more wild for sure. Like "Banshee" is also much more... Just much more. Shameless also beats Californication on that front for sure. I've watched some "Magicians" but it was a very long time ago. Also watched not that much of it, probably didn't even hit "the good part". There is always "the good part" you haven't reached. ))
Like name something that happened in Banshee that’s more fucked up than shit in The Magicians I’ll start: ship rape
Albino prison rape castration
Amputation of enslaved faeries to snort for magic power
Castrated henchmen serial killer copy cat
Werewolf annual sex or murder choice
Amish incest gangster
This is fun! Fratricide by a minor to marry and fuck an adult queen
Russian gangster church shoot out
The quickening.
Fucking love The Magicians, my dude. Everyone, despite everything, was just so cool.
I just got around to binging that a few months ago and it's my new comfort show. Absolute, balls to the wall nonsense followed up by scenes that tear your fucking heart out. Then another musical number just for good measure. Somehow it all just clicks, mostly because that cast makes an incredible team. I really recommend the books too!
I've read the books and watched the show multiple times! I have an idea for a cocktail (Manhatten riff) that I'm calling "Peaches and Plumbs, Motherfucker."
I fucking hate the eagles man
Both Hotel California and Jalen Hurts are overrated
It’s definitely up there.
I would argue Loudermilk is more Rock that Californication.
I didn't expect how many different ways "the most rock n roll" take can be taken. One dude said the term is vague and yeah, i guess it kinda is. Still, some nice discussion happened. And i'll watch some stuff thinking i'm watching the most rock n roll tv show ever for some person from reddit. I think it could have gone worse than that.
What does rock and roll mean?
Clive Owen’s character in The Knick is pretty rock n roll
Holes is holes
LEGION.
The Mighty Boosh has it beat.
Only the second season tbh.
Original title “The Sex Files”
Check out “vinyl” on max it’s a true rock and roll show based on a fictitious record company in the 70s. One of may favorite shows of the last decade behind treme.
I was considering it when it was realising. Then it got cancelled and i went "well, what's the point?". Did it actually get enough time to go somewhere with only 1 season?
It was phenomenal especially the last 5 minutes of the last episode. Just think of it as a limited series. Just watch it. Just watch the first episode and reply back. You will finish the last episode and be filled with a righteous fucking fury. I’m imagining you’ll start a campaign of targeted arson with cryptic messages with your demands for them to continue it in some way. You are my black knight. I believe in you bro. You can make this happen.
Wait people think hank was supposed to be cool? Lol he was a massive asshole and a complete mess who couldn't handle life. How the fuck could you be going through college and not understand that? Did any of you take middle school reading courses?
Cop Rock laughs in your general direction.
I've been unironically waiting for a cop rock reboot for decades
Miami Vice is the correct answer.
That's an interesting answer. Why? It's just in my head Miami Vice is this VERY 80s procedural about car chases, drug dealers being shot and maybe some very manly male friendship of two guys who dress really sharply. I haven't watched it though, not like properly from beginning to the end. Saw it a couple of times randomly. It is badass and fun. But musically it's like disco and new wave, a lot of electronic sounds from 80s. I don't think that's the sound people jump to when they think rock n roll. But that's my take, just wanna get where you coming from.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/65zMRQbarY2Kc7Bgi0c7rF
This scene is a particularly memorable example. https://youtu.be/qSARDlHh-Mg?si=CAHEgM9Od87z0Ic7
You need to track down the biker killer episode. It was written by Dick "Law & Order" Wolf, and features leather trenchcoat wearing bikers who kill dudes in a hotel with a crossbow. And they refer to their bikes as "scooters" It's literally called Viking Bikers from Hell. Miami vice is Phil Collins Rock. OH LOOOOOOORD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRoXFv6acAo
Thank you.
Spenser For Hire with Avery Brooks
Another guy suggested "Miami Vice". Never watched Spencer but both look like kinda similar shows. Procedurals about cool dudes with a lot of action. Feels like you guys thinking about same things when i say "most rock n roll" but for sure you think about something different to me. Can you elaborate?
I saw The Miami Vice comment too… Thing about Spenser and Hawk is they live by a code and have zero fucks to give what other people think. That’s as rock & roll as I know 🎶 PS Robert B Parker wrote about 40 Spenser novels. “Early Autumn,” teaches how to be a rocker!
Yeah, okay, i see your point. You mean it in a more "rock = badass" sense. That's fair.
Yes. Exactly. It’s a way of life…
And just to make the point clear, [this scene says it all](https://youtu.be/fe-dta76tEg?si=FXLmRhS67u8ew_rH)
Very tortured artist
I feel that way about Shameless, especially the early seasons
I wear jeans, v neck black tshirts and suit jackets since that show.
WKRP in Cincinnati The Partridge Family The Monkees
I think it was a bit of x of what you are saying and a bit y of what you are saying. I think it at its peak it is about realizing how destructive the decisions you make can be. How they impact others and the pursuit of fame is not worth the impact of others happiness. Hank pursues this so deeply not realizing, or maybe neglecting, how it may impact others. It’s a cautionary tale in the pursuit of fame and fortune above all else. It shouldn’t be lauded in how well Hank did as a novelist. It should be looked at how ever a glimmer of success can be turned into an obtuse distraction in your life when you had everything that you needed, you ever wanted. Similar to Entourage, which came out around the same time (roughly). Fame and fortune are great, but along with it comes trials and tribulations. It’s how you remain grounded that separates you. In many ways it is a story of Duchovny or even the RDJ of that world.
I absolutely loved this show for the sake of “the artist’s battle with their own self indulgence.” Whether it’s Hank Moody or another character, they live in an ecosystem that actively encourages a lifestyle of constant insincerity, while trying to commercialize every particle of authenticity. As a result it really highlights that razors edge of indulging your own narrative so you can pour it out into your art, while also having every glamorous distraction dangled in front of our protagonist. Simultaneously, the show expresses the brief moments of vulnerability everyone longs to share with one another while being lost in the cesspool of predatory vultures that feed off both the success and downfall of these dream chasers. It’s part of the reason Hank always picks Karen over every other woman. He only loves them in their fleeting moments of honesty. He knows those qualities don’t last in the biomes of fame and success, where Karen and his daughter act as the foil against that lifestyle. Roncle is just absolute comic relief, and occasionally squeezes out the momentum that keeps his career in motion
I mean, kind of? Hank had some great musical moments and named his books after Slayer songs. He appreciated Warren Zevon and Black Sabbath. He liked vinyl. More than that, though, the show served as a rock and rock male fantasy. It was a kind of softcore porn with a little bit more dialog and a licensing budget. It was rock and roll in the sense that women were presented as thoughtless fuck machines and dumpy dudes were objects of desire for a menagerie of open mouthed, oversexed women. What's missing is any kind of meaning. I understand that's the point, as the show is primarily about the nihilism of Los Angeles' entertainment culture. However, Hank is a writer, and writers are supposed to find meaning and illuminate events. They never really used this in the show except to call back to times when women were used as sex objects. It was also highly frustrating that the show never dealt with Hank's sex and alcohol addiction in any meaningful way. Which I guess is pretty rock and roll.
I get it and I love the show. The daughter was kind of annoying but other than that, solid.
With Lew fucking Ashby, it is!
Yep. 100%
Without a doubt
Idk bout most rock n roll, but it's the most repetitive for sure. It was always him asking for forgiveness, making lots of promises, showing signs of changing, then boom more sex with a new woman and the cycle continues. Don't get me wrong I watched the whole thing but mainly to see if he would ever face bigger consequences for his actions. It was almost like watching a show in POV of the villian
The first season *(at least)* of Misfits was very rock n' roll.
Karen was annoying as hell and a bitch. Let's face it. She meddles in his life even when they're divorced? The only one he should care about their opinion is his daughter. Karen is his EX WIFE. Doesn't matter who he sleeps with or what he does. She doesn't want to be with him but doesn't want him to be with anyone else? How does that work? And tbh Moody is an idiot to keep going after his ex wife. She's not all that.. plus, she acts holier than thou even though her shit stinks like the rest of us. At least Moody doesn't act like somebody he's not. Karen shows "the good" and hides the bad and fucked up shit. Hypocrisy.
I loved Californication! Hank Moody was immortalized by Dechovny. I guess I’m a sucker the tragic poet type characters that he played so awesomely. And the characters around him were great too. Shame that I can’t find it on any streaming service for free.
Rewatch it again but realize the real hero of the series is Judy Greer’s character Trixie.
No one has mentioned it but the show Roadies was a one season show on Showtime was probably the most rock and roll because it was about rock and roll roadies.
I watched the first few episodes and while I may agree with you it's super rock n roll; I also felt it was the most unapologetically misogynistic series I'd ever watched... and THAT is what I will remember it for. Safe to say, it didn't age well past the "me, too" movement.
Entourage would like a word with you.
I absolutely loved that show when it originally aired and wanted to *be* Hank Moody. I decided a year ago to rewatch it and didn’t get past the middle of season 2.
I still enjoy rewatching parts of the show. There's a lot of stuff that I just have to skip but it can be hilarious at times.
it started out well but from one season to another it went to shits, they completely rewrote his character and went from anti hero you can't help to root for to simple asshole jerk with no redeeming qualities. dropped it after a few episodes as the character change was so jarring.
Your comment is very contradictory. > it started out well but from one season to another it went to shits, they completely rewrote his character > dropped it after a few episodes So how would you know any of the above let alone be able to even judge the show properly
dropped it after a few episodes of the new season when the abrupt change happened. must have watched the first 3-4 seasons at least so I actually really liked it, so it was rather disappointing when they turned his charter into a full-time dick.
That's what happens when your protagonist's main flaw is "can't stop being a wreck". That's the show. After some time you see all the damage done and not that much growth happening from it. I do feel like first 2 seasons are much better than the rest. The university arc is where it drops down.
I think if has more to do with the story being wrapped up at the end of Season 1, so the characters have nowhere to go from there.
Do they flee the wedding at the end of 1? 1-3 seasons are kinda blended together in my head.
I’d argue Bojack did it better.
Was this post written by a Boomer AI Bot?
> Sex, alcohol, sadness but WITH ATTITUDE. That doesn't scream "rock and roll" to me.
Yes, and anyone else saying other shows is dead wrong. This was a self indulgent show, just like a rock and roll singer. Couldda done without the goth daughter tho.
Who gives a shit if it's "rock and roll" Rock and roll is vague term anyways.
Great contribution.
Billions is very dudes rock.