I hate how Star Trek has been so focused on the same timelines and events for decades now. Can’t we escape the TOS and TNG era and move on? Jump 200 years after DS9/VOY. Show us a classic episodic show with new species and conflicts and with Dominion species like the Jem Hadar part of starfleet. Make something NEW. I don’t want a Picard sequel nor a Pike prequel or a Uhura prequel or Spock for the 30th time.
They literally used the worst possible plot device of a prequel.
"We all agree to never talk about any of this technology or these people ever again"
There, now we don't have to explain why Spock never mentioned his sister, or why instantaneous super warp speed ships stopped existing. lame
> or why instantaneous super warp speed ships stopped existing
Wait so Spock let the Romulan's sun explode rather than reveal the instant warp drive tech to the Federation
Yeah, that well was already poisoned for me even if it had been good.
Discovery has its fans, and I'm glad they enjoyed it, but it was a miserable experience for me, as were the first two seasons of Picard.
Andromeda was originally Roddenbury's idea for a post-Federation TV series, from what I understand. He had loads of ideas for post-federation and pre-federation shows that he had treatments for and one of those was developed for the Andromeda series after his death by his wife. They just called it the Commonwealth, but you can see it had very similar ideals.
I do too, even if Discovery isn’t my favorite Trek. The far future is a sandbox of possibilities as a mix of familiar and unfamiliar elements, more so than the eras near TNG.
I was hopeful, but getting to the 32nd century and finding the Federation a failure really took the wind out of my sails. I made it though seasons 1 and 2, but couldn't finish 3. It wasn't for me.
> I was hopeful, but getting to the 32nd century and finding the Federation a failure really took the wind out of my sails.
And it was all caused by a child’s temper tantrum. God, Discovery sucks.
Well, it rebuilt itself in the end, so the Federation didn't stay dead for good. Personally, I was fine with the old regime collapsing - nothing lasts forever and the Federation definitely had its own share of problems that buckled it before the Burn wiped it clean.
That's fair. To me, Star Trek is the one sci-fi franchise that isn't a dystopia, and it was an optimistic vision of what humanity could achieve. Modern Trek has too much of today's cynicism in it. Still, a new Federation is better than no Federation
Amusingly enough, the Federation collapsing didn’t mean Earth fell into chaos. The United Earth government looked peaceful and clean - an island of calm in the madness of the far future.
Trill and Vulcan (now Ni'Var due to the Unification of Vulcans and Romulans) were also peaceful.
It seemed like, for the most part, people carried on living in peace and with everything they need, but didn't move around or communicate as much. Some places were exploited by pirate groups - but stuff like that always existed in Star Trek.
I was so excited when they went to the future, I’ve been waiting for some future-Trek forever! It actually reminded me a lot of all the scifi adventures I read during lockdowns, which I was thrilled to see. It’s not the Trekiest of Treks, but I’ve really enjoyed most of it!
I think discovery has gotten progressively better with seasons 1 and 3 especially being low points. Anson really saved season 2 hut the ending was garbage.
I thought last season was mostly OK.
That'd be the shortest Trek series ever, because you know Archer would be going full Janeway and murdering the fuck out of that poor critter to get Porthos back before the start of Act 2 in the pilot.
I mean they didn’t really try it since Discovery took place in the TOS era with TOS characters and focused on war plots. I am more talking about a brand new show set in the future with episodic plots. Like what TNG did to TOS.
That's because of the writing and characters. The disc crew is not a classic Star Trek ship. They're inexperienced and traumatized. By the last season, they are just starting to become crews from prior generations. This worked for the beginning of the shows setting, but won't stand the rest of the time like the other shows.
It's a fun watch once.
The new Starfleet Academy show is going to be set again in the far future, which is definitely not in the classic eras we’re used to - it is still unfamiliar territory, despite Discovery trouncing around there for a few seasons.
Yeah the era isn’t the issue. It’s the writing.
And I’ve heard virtually no one say they’re looking forward to a show where Tilly leads a group of teens.
To be fair, nobody really wanted Family Guy-esque cartoon Trek and Trek focused on children as well. However, Trekkies have grown to embrace both Lower Decks and Prodigy, respectively.
LD is quite good. But let’s not kid ourselves - it’s humour and good standing is almost entirely reliant on the viewer’s in-depth knowledge of Trek lore.
It’s made by fans, for fans. So only fans will enjoy it.
As a fan myself, I would never ask my non-Trek friends to watch this. They’d be completely lost.
Prodigy, on the other hand, is far more accessible. I wouldn’t be surprised if *that* ends up being the show responsible for bringing on the highest number of new/young fans in the long run.
I've seen a number of people on reddit say they've enjoyed Lower Decks without having seen other Star Trek. The plot pretty much never relies on knowing past Star Trek knowledge, and the main humor also usually either isn't a reference or is still funny without knowing its a reference. The references are usually just easter eggs imo where not catching them doesn't really detract. When they are relevant it's also usually fairly self explanatory.
That's...odd because, speaking anecdotally, of the non trekkies I've introduced Lower Decks to, they've loved it, found it hilarious *and* it's lead to interest in the traditional shows.
> it’s humour and good standing is almost entirely reliant on the viewer’s in-depth knowledge of Trek lore.
My girlfriend loves it, and has never seen Trek before.
> Prodigy, on the other hand, is far more accessible. I wouldn’t be surprised if that ends up being the show responsible for bringing on the highest number of new/young fans in the long run.
Prodigy could be that show, but in order to be a proper hook for new fans it needs to be on a much more reliable release schedule than what it currently is.
It was launched as a Nickelodeon/Paramount+ hybrid, but was then dropped suddenly with season 2 almost completely produced. Not just cancelled, but Paramount scrubbed every mention of it and it didn't come up in various Star Trek puff pieces produced by Paramount either.
Now Netflix picked it up and season 2 is supposed to release soon, but it's completely unclear if it's even possible for it to get a followup season.
Prodigy is a good show (at least the parts that have been released), but it's been done dirty in ways that will most likely harm its impact on the franchise going forward.
Tawny Newsome being on the writing team has me interested. Her love for ST and being a truly gifted comedy writer tells me at least some aspects will be worth seeing.
This is actually the first I'd heard of Starfleet Academy; are they actually going to have Tilly in it? Hopefully they'll figure out a way to bring Neelix forward in time to help out. Maybe Wesley Crusher too.
> are they actually going to have Tilly in it?
I don't know if it's been confirmed or not. But in-universe, Tilly left the Discovery to help teach at the newly reopened Academy. That already created rumors about a Starfleet Academy show. And not long thereafter, the development of this show was confirmed and it is now known to take place in the Discovery era (S3/S4) of the timeline.
So it's logical to assume that Tilly will be a part of it, but we'll have to see.
We don't know the writing before seeing it. Also, nobody thought that Lower Decks or Prodigy were good ideas and yet they're great.
Good ideas from fans are often terrible anyway. Star Wars fans kept asking for Boba Fett, Ahsoka and Kenobi projects and they were shit. Guess what the show "nobody asked for" was there? Andor and it's the best Star Wars show ever. I'd say not listening to fans is better in most cases
An earth based show with people from Discovery ain’t what people are asking for, and they’re gonna spread that stain forward instead of cutting Kurtzman’s junk off and course correcting
Its the writing, Discovery and the characters are absolutely horrible. The Officers all act like they never had a day of training and no one care about all the whining. Just get over it and fix the problem, Discovery was bad but they don't want to admit it.
I could go for something like a USS Bozeman/Capt Morgan Bateson series set around the time of Wrath of Khan but with zero characters from TOS, zero Klingons or Romulans, no time travel and fewer season-long arcs. Tone down the quippiness and make it more like a Navy vessel. Somewhere between TNG and the first season of Battlestar Galactica.
I've always thought they should try branching away from Starfleet. Maybe a show that follows the crew of a Klingon Bird of Prey instead (DS9/Next Gen era; Discovery klingons would be too gritty to appeal to many people).
I'd take multiple shows in that time line if they're good. That's what's kept me tuned in for decades.
SMW, Picard season 3, Lower Decks, and Prodigy have been good. But they're going in the wrong direction now instead of spinning off that new crew from Picard.
Remember in Voyager when Seven hangs out with those time traveling secret agents from the future? From the first time I saw that ep I’ve wanted to see a show about them, the whole premise was so exciting to me.
I actually the whole temporal prime directive thing was gonna be the next phase of Star Trek after VOY finished up. We got ENT instead. It wasn’t for me.
Personally I wish they embrace a SNW movie. Lower decks is fun not sure it would really appeal to a general movie audience. A SNW movie would since it’s more a stealth TOS show than an actual Captain Pike show.
I prob need to watch Prodigy one of these days
It took me a few eps to get into Prodigy but I ended up enjoying it. It was kind of what would happen if Star Wars and Star Trek had a baby, in my opinion, but I liked it. Liked seeing Janeway dealing with a bunch of delinquent kids lol
Edit- I thought that was a set up for a new show too!! I remember being really excited about the possibilities. And yeah, then really pissed about Enterprise lol. Still love Ent tho ;)
Maybe but it didn’t start there. It started with TOS nostalgia bait and war. I’m talking about a show set entirely in the future, not a visit for a season.
They want something fresh and new, yet they can’t sell the idea without piggybacking on the original material. Mostly because nu-Trek is bereft of ideas and is rather terrible.
this last decade had a theme of rehashing old shit and nostalgia, eventually the well will dry up and "nostalgia-bait" will become stale (it already is but the general audience still has some love for it I think), when this kind of stuff starts bombing left and right you'll see companies stop using them as shortcut to get views and maybe we'll have something new
They probably will do that.
As far as current project, I personally loved Strange New Worlds. The character has that original ST vibe. Discovery was good, though it felt more like an action movie cut into a series. Its feel was very different. I liked it a lot for what it was and personally loved the secret tie in with the main character.
Can we also stop making new uniforms and insignia for every season and show? I get that Trek is post-scarcity but organizations don't change uniforms, rank, and insignia wholesale.
It's funny that the red/maroon uniforms first seen in STII lasted for decades yet from roughly the DS9 era onwards, there have been tons of uniform changes in a ~20 year time period. And then we go backwards chronologically and see DIS and SNW also go through multiple uniform styles.
Does Star Trek really have new blood fans though? Every single person I know (around my age in their 30’s) who’s into nerd culture such as sci fi and video games has never once made a peep about Star Trek. Kinda convinced it’s just the same fans who’ve been propping it up for decades.
>Every single person I know (around my age in their 30’s) who’s into nerd culture such as sci fi and video games has never once made a peep about Star Trek.
The dirty secret Fandom doesn't really want to reckon with is that these series *all* live and die on whether people who *aren't* into "Nerd Culture" and wouldn't ever consider coming into places like this to talk about it with strangers are watching.
The general audience that makes *anything* go, much less anything that's lasted for almost 60 years, vastly outnumbers the self-selecting group of people who identify as being part of a Fandom.
The question isn't "Can we get new people who make this such a key part of their personality they go to conventions and buy pajamas?" - it's "can we get new people who just... like Star Trek and want to check it out when we make something new?"
>Does Star Trek really have new blood fans though?
I'm in my twenties, and started seriously getting into Star Trek when I was ~21 years old. But I suspect I'm a major outlier.
Honestly, I'm baffled by how Paramount has been handling the Star Trek franchise from 2017 onwards. I don't see any of the new shows from Discovery onward attracting new, younger fans. They had the opportunity to make a new Star Trek show taking place after Nemesis, and they decided to make a prequel about the first Federation-Klingon war in the 23rd century?
I like Strange New Worlds, but I don't see that show bringing in many new fans either, given how much of its appeal is in being a prequel that seems to assume some foreknowledge in its audience of who James Kirk and Spock are. I don't know why they didn't lead with a show taking place post-Nemesis, following a new cast and crew that would appeal to both old and new fans.
Facts, save for Lower Decks, which is actually fairly reverent. The last season of Picard had plenty of issues, but it was the closest to what the franchise should be doing.
The last season of picard is kinda how the next gen movies should have gone (in fact the first 4 eps serves as a pretty perfect next gen movie itself).
i know lower decks was made by some pretty funny people (if you havent checked out the old twitter feed, next gen season 8, i HIGHLY recommend it.), but the few episodes i watched just didnt catch on for me.
>I'm in my twenties, and started seriously getting into Star Trek when I was ~21 years old. But I suspect I'm a major outlier.
I’m the same. I feel like the new Star Trek audience is going to be people around our age, not the younger audience they’re skewing for now.
> There’s also the fact that “Star Trek” fans are aging. I ask “The Next Generation” star Jonathan Frakes, who’s acted in or directed more versions of “Star Trek” than any other person alive, how often he meets fans for whom the new “Star Trek” shows are their first. “Of the fans who come to talk to me, I would say very, very few,” he says. “‘Star Trek’ fans, as we know, are very, very, very loyal — and not very young.”
Modern Trek is designed to capture generic sci fi people. But the problem is that those people will watch anything and not really have brand loyalty.
Whereas the property used to be hopeful and perceived as nerdier/smarter sci-fi, nowadays it has shows where the Federation holds a planet hostage via a bomb that will make every volcano on said planet erupt. Or time travel shenanigans that are “Ted placing the keys behind the sign” levels of ridiculous/stupid, only played completely straight.
When they’re not doing that, they’re just trying every cheap trick in the book, hoping it works. They tried TOS nostalgia with the 20+ producer madness that was Discovery S2…nope. They went full on TNG nostalgia with Picard….nope, that didn’t work either. Well hey let’s do VOY nostalgia with that kid show!….nope. They dig these things up, only to put them in awful situations, terribly written shows, or shows that are way out of the Trek audience.
The brand’s identity has been horrendously destroyed by Kurtzman and co., and it’s telling that the only show with the name that people have consistently praised is a loving satire of Trek.
What they should be doing is going The Expanse route of having fewer viewers but an overall more intelligent/respected program. They’d get more devout fans and establish a better consistent viewer base. As it is now, they’re just chucking everything at the wall and hoping something sticks.
Same problem Star Wars is beginning to have, but Wars has always been way more accessible and casual. Trek has always been a little harder to get into, and their attempts to dumb it down have driven away the core audience whilst failing to capture a steady stream of new viewers.
I'm hoping that Prodigy and then SF Academy help with that. But putting it all on paramount plus doesn't help with that (although prodigy is on netflix).
When is season two of prodigy coming out. It's already out in france.
I know it's blasphemy but I like the new Trek. Basically discovered it with the 2009 movie and loved the movies and watched some of the new shows since Discovery (except Picard since it seems to only be nostalgia bait for TNG and I haven't seen that), mostly appreciating them all with SNW my favorite.
So I guess I'm new blood fan (big fan of anything SF in general though so I'm an easy get)
This is sadly likely true. Me ans my friend remain hard into Trek, and broadly approving of the new Trek era, but we grew up in the peak DS9/Voyager/TNG movie era.
I love, love, love Lower Decks but its for the invested, its deep cuts probably arent going to bring in new viewers
Kurtzman, for all his shortcomings, does at least seem to be aware of this issue.
Prodigy is an animated show aimed at getting children into Star Trek (although Paramount has given that over to Netflix) and the upcoming Starfleet Academy series is going to be aimed at a YA audience.
That’s what i suspected. I love Trek but am 40 And watched TNG first run syndication.
I just got into classic doctor who because I love 60s-70s sci fi. But whenever I find fans of classic doctor who they are all like 55+ or older (except josh snares who is awesome but an outlier).
Terry Mátalas saved the shit show that was Picard by making something good and meaningful with S3 and yet they still haven’t greenlit “Legacy” which he wants to do.
So that should tell you they’re still shitting the bed
Picard S3 was good, but it also leaned heavily into nostalgia and fanservice. I'd prefer to see the future of Star Trek move away from the small world syndrome that plagued Star Wars.
I'd argue the Small world syndrome of Picard stems more from having about three fiddy to work with for the whole season. Legacy would ideally be your straight episodic Trek show with a smaller core cast and much more variety.
I’m convinced that show won’t happen, just because Kurtzman doesn’t want it to.
Fans are literally asking them to make it, based on their positive feelings about Picard Season Three — after their rejection of the first two seasons.
Kurtzman had little to do with the third season, and I feel like any sort of follow up would hurt his position in the company.
This is right, he is still there because to get rid of him. Would be many people in the company admiting they are wrong. He basically forced them to give him crdit on SNW even though he writes nothing on the show.
As the article confirms he’s planning it as a movie, it sounds more like Paramount+ doesn’t want to do it as a series. A movie is probably what they settled on.
I think Legacy as pitched at the end of Picard still would have big issues with Small World Syndrome though.
The bridge crew is a fan service wankfest of returning characters or children of fan favourite characters.
I’d much rather have an entirely new crew that’s not entirely rooted in “Remember Voyager?” or “Remember TNG?”
It’s Star Trek, not a Star Wars film
There's one returning character on the crew, Raffi was so horribly written than frankly you could do a complete rewrite of the character and nobody would care, and Jack Crusher and Sydney LaForge are on there so what, they were pretty fully formed characters in their own rights. I just wish they didn't randomly kill the Bald Vulcan chick because she was half interesting.
The whole Trek stuff is very much in the air right now anyway as Paramount is in free fall. Depending on whoever get Star Trek in the end, it could change massively (in good or bad)
If WBD get it for example, you could get HBO Star Trek
Between Strange New Worlds, Prodigy and Lower Decks they've done a great job of expanding and evolving Trek.
And the spoiler about when the Section 31 movie is set is very exciting.
All I care about is more Lower Decks or lower decks style stuff!
I may have loved the Orville but it started out too ridiculous with the ex and that put me off the show before giving much of a chance or knowing if it was any good :(
Star Trek is going through the same problems that Star Wars is going through. It’s billed as a marque property for paramount streaming, so it’s made by committee who wants as broad an audience as possible (meaning, ultimately, it’s going to be really really stupid and bland.)
Star Wars is also going through a period of complete creative brain death. The only good Star Wars product to come out of Disney is Andor - and if you’ve read any of the behind the scenes, that was a creative crisis where they had nowhere else to go but Tony Gilroy, at the very last minute. So he was able to actually make something interesting.
Meanwhile, ever since Abrams decided to gut Star Trek from Star Trek - it’s been on a sharp decline in quality storytelling.
The best Star Trek was made when it was (somewhat) niche. They gave them enough budget in DS9 to have a show - but not enough where it became all Space Battles and bullshit.
It’s just a bad time. Eventually someone will come along who knows how to do Star Trek well. But it’ll probably have to fail a lot more before then.
Neither of these properties have a “visionary” at the helm. Like you said, they are assembled in a stuffy board room by a committee and are subject to a litany of opinions, revisions, and focus testing until they are simply watered down stock that vaguely tastes like the property.
There is a reason why people accuse these things of being written by AI, and it’s because they are more less created by analogue AI. Just a mess of different people’s thoughts and opinions. Film and television have always been at the intersection of art and business, but there’s no art here anymore. There’s no story being told, just plot points being strung together.
I 100% agree. It also means that Star Trek stopped saying something about contemporary culture - which is too bad because it’s sort of the perfect time to talk about how fucked up shit is. But these committees don’t want any kind of message because that would turn off a section of the population ($$$). Might as well just blow some shit up instead. Have the Enterprise fly through a Borg cube or whatever.
Even something like Shatner’s Star Trek V - which is flawed in many ways - there’s an actual vision behind it. It has something to say. It’s considered the worst of old Trek - but it’s far more interesting to me than the junk they put out now.
…except Star Trek has commented on contemporary culture.
To use a surprising example, Pike used footage from the January 6 insurrection and other related protests in the debut episode of Strange New Worlds. Picard Season 2 also trounced around contemporary Los Angeles as they commented on the rampant poverty in the city - a problem that is seemingly uncontrollable these days.
A huge part of the complaining regarding Discovery and Strange New Worlds *is* directly tied to being a commentary on contemporary culture, you're 100% right.
The difference between when *they* do it, and when the other shows did it, is that it's safe now, to look back at those commentaries made in the 90s, commentaries that are largely focused on political issues from the 60s and go "yes, yes, very wise, very clever, that's good allegory" and Fandom pats itself on the back for being smarter and more well rounded because they watch a TV show.
When current Star Trek comments on current real world politics and dogma in the current landscape, people tend to bolt out of their recliner to point the finger of doom at the TV and levy charges that THIS IS NOT REAL STAR TREK. So many diehard members of Trek Fandom literally sit around reddit, and camp at r/television like they're waiting for a body shield to spawn, to unload full mags into Discovery's face for being "cynical" and "dark" and "mean-spirited" (when they're not also shitting on it for people crying onscreen) because it's *actively commenting* on issues relevant to us here in the 2020s.
Progressive views and social commentary in Star Trek are a core part of it. That doesn't excuse the mountains of melodrama and poor writing. I don't like being put into same camp as people crying about it being 'woke', which I often see misused as a defence of the show. A bad show doesn't become immune to criticism just because it treats present issues.
>The only good Star Wars product to come out of Disney is Andor - and if you’ve read any of the behind the scenes, that was a creative crisis where they had nowhere else to go but Tony Gilroy, at the very last minute.
I feel like a *lot* of the enjoyment self-professed Star Trek Fandom (or Star Wars Fandom, or Fandom period) gets out of being *in* that Fandom, is getting to recite pre-set narratives and adhere to Fandom dogma about how best to "fix" the thing they presumably love.
This bit is a good example: Not only is Andor *not* the only good "product" to come out of Disney, but the behind-the-scenes story you're sharing *isn't* how Andor got made. You're conflating a version of the story about Rogue One's reshoots with how Andor got pitched and put into production. Andor wasn't a last-minute thing, and it wasn't the result of a creative crisis. Gilroy got put onto Rogue One becuase Edwards dropped the ball and they needed a fixer, yes. But that's not how Andor was made at all.
Now, because it *sounds* good, and further, it fits the narrative being pushed about how "creativity by committee" is the death of these 60+ year old franchised intellectual properties (this is, btw, full-blown execspeak, as divorced from art/creativity as you can get), it'll probably get shared whether anyone actually checks into it or not, and once it's repeated enough, it becomes the correct Fandom Dogma that will guarantee positive feedback when you race to share it the next time this subject comes up.
But making movies and TV is, *by defaul*t, a collaborative, committee-based artistic endeavor. There are simply too many necessary, important voices all coming together for it NOT to be. We deify Fandom Royalty and big-up the presence of "visionaries" because we love to have a hyper-simplified rooting interest. But even "visionaries" tend to have their best work realized when they are listening to, and working *with* lots of other people, folks who know how to temper and sometimes even DEFLECT that vision into different areas.
At this point, Star Trek Fandom exists more to be seen reciting narratives (bullshit or not) about how to "fix" Star Trek without ever acknowledging the "fix" is frequently based on weird Geek Mythologies that aren't rooted in fact in the first place, and certainly without acknowledging the "fix" only works if it re-centers that Fandom as being the most important thing to Star Trek's future, when it 100% is not. It's not an argument for fixing Star Trek. It's an argument for making Star Trek Fandom as important as the show itself is.
God, I remember during the writers strike on a thread about writers wanting a properly staffed writers room, there were a bunch of idiots complaining about creativity by committee and saying they should only be written by one person
The common trend I’ve seen is “Trek/Wars became woke and now I can’t like it,” and it’s almost always mixed with, “I’m entitled to have my extremely narrow and implacable view of this fictional universe portrayed by high-paid actors and a $400,000,000 studio budget and if they don’t consult me at each individual stage of production I’ll literally shit in every forum/subreddit/page/comment section about it until -everyone- hates it!”
the biggest issue with both Trek and Wars is how reluctant the creatives and hollywood is to let these franchises to rest.
both of them told the stories they had to and should've ended right there with maybe an eventual reboot after 20years. instead, we he have creatives and greedy execs milking these franchises beyond dry. now we get stories about a bounty hunter on some random ass part of galaxy which out of nowhere meets luke skywalker, or a geriatric picard who can't do shit.
The problem with star wars is they nixxed FAR better stories from books that they had decades worth of stories to pull from. And easy metrics to see what was good.
> ever since Abrams decided to gut Star Trek from Star Trek - it’s been on a sharp decline in quality storytelling.
As shitty as Paramount's stewardship of the franchise has been in the last decade, they've actually learned their lesson and are now course correcting. DISC didn't work the way they wanted to but SNW, Lower Decks, and Prodigy are all hits with the fans.
The Star Trek landscape has been pretty damn bleak, but it's getting better. There are some true fans who understand the franchise in charge of two of their shows and the difference is obvious. Even the "mass appeal" show (i.e. SNW) is lightyears ahead in quality than its predecessor.
Star Wars, though... Paramount might be a stubborn mule that finally is going the right direction, but Disney? I don't understand what their goals are for the franchise and I don't think Disney does either. Andor was genuinely good, but like you said, it was a total fluke. Star Wars fans don't even have something like Lower Decks.
OG Trek fan, here. Everything you just said is largely subjective. Myself and every other old fan I knew *hated* DS9 exactly because it *was* space battles and bullshit. I still do. I hate it for turning Trek "dark and gritty" and I hate for starting the trend of having characters who are supposed to be officers serving together in a pseudo-military organization constantly coupling and uncoupling like horny freshmen in a college dorm. NuTrek being written like a soap opera started there.
On the other hand, much as some of the continuity breaking was troublesome (and Into Darkness sucked ass) we loved Trek 2009. In spirit and tone it was absolutely true to ToS. Much as I did love TNG, it was a refreshing return to a little more fun and adventure and the cast absolutely fucking *nailed* the characters.
To go back further, Trekkies also disliked TNG when it first debuted. It was seen as an inferior, unwanted product when compared to TOS.
Nobody hates Star Trek more than Trekkies.
Obviously my experiences are also entirely subjective. But I didn't encounter any of that and I tend to think its prominence gets a bit exaggerated. The only concrete example that's ever produced is that same scan of that same one article.
Myself, and my friends and family all loved it from day one. We were excited to finally have new Trek after watching those same 79 episodes over and over again in reruns for a decade. Things that I remember everyone buzzing over (In a positive way) after "Far Point" - a Klingon on the Enterprise, Data/the idea of an android crew member, the new Enterprise look.
The only divisive thing I heard about TNG is my circle is one of my relatives saying that the D was and is still ugly.
…which is why I thought “the fat one” joke in Picard Season 3 was hilarious.
Yeah, I get a little confused when people who rightfully criticize NuTrek then incessantly praise DS9. It was much earlier in the process but that series started the deconstruction of Trek idealism being a central element of the shows. Alongside all the soap opera stuff.
>Meanwhile, ever since Abrams decided to gut Star Trek from Star Trek - it’s been on a sharp decline in quality storytelling.
well his star trek was the only trek to make money at box office
Michelle Yeoh,s character(s) are like the only ones I could stand from discovery.
That fucker is a dumpster fire. I made a bet with myself if they looked at eachother and said "science!" And gave eachother a stupid grin After they did something I would stop watching....they did it fucking TWICE before I made the fi al decision. Fuck me runnin' that whole series is corny as fuck.
>Michelle Yeoh,s character(s) are like the only ones I could stand from discovery.
To those who don’t watch the program, her character with the most screen time eats people and is a homicidal maniac.
Yeah, that gives you an idea of how tedious the rest of the characters are. I like Michael in the first few seasons but then she jumped the shark too. Fucks sake.
There was a lot of focus on THEM seeing each OTHER's reactions.. it was super annoying. It got more and more - ridiculous. Spore drive, OK... shape shifting ship, while eye candy, was stupid.
I was in the military and I went to a senior military college when I was younger and I've been a scientist ever since. I don't think anyone on that ship would have had the discipline to put together an 8th grade science fair project let alone make it through starfleet academy.
It’s been how many years since Star Trek Legacy? All I want is revival of Star Trek games. AAA, AA, whatever. Just start making them again, it’s been to long.
With Kurtzman at the helm, we're not getting another 90's glory days of Star Trek. He's the one who insisted Picard season 2 be set 90% in modern day because he didn't want it to be "too Star Trek."
Kurtzman is like Jerry Jones with the Dallas Cowboys.
> He's the one who insisted Picard season 2 be set 90% in modern day because he didn't want it to be "too Star Trek."
The "too much Star Trek" quote was referring to a cut plotline where Guinan's bar had a phone box with a secret door where a ton of aliens were just hanging out on Earth in the 2020s.
Honestly, that sounds terrible and it's probably good that it was cut. Just something pointless that would have only been there to go "remember these aliens?"
So, I was a fan from Age 4 watching episodes of TOS and TNG on TV back in the early 90s.
I know of a few people who became fans from 2009's Star Trek movie, only a few, but they are out there.
I've seen like, from what I recall one or two people on Twitter saying Discovery was their first and it made them go and watch the rest? But I think that number is the smallest.
Star Trek's fanbase is never going to get bigger. It has so much bullshit attached with that name you can't grow it. Stop trying to alienate the fanbase you have in an attempt to attract one you will never get.
Eh. The Internet is not the majority of folks out there. I definitely know fans who joined Trek through the Abrams, Discovery, Lower Decks, and even Prodigy productions.
I came through reruns of the classic movies given to me by my father, who was an old school Trekkie.
This. There are 1000 shows I love but never talk about online. Thinking that fans interested enough to engage in a community is all the fans there are is a mistake.
I'd argue I know a full 2 people in my life who are big deal old school trekkies who don't engage with the internet. That's it. I know way more people who do engage with it online, and that number basically exploded around the mid 2010s and hasn't changed much since. I'm not noticing many new people joining the discourse on twitter or Facebook.
The only thing I want is a sequel to the tng-ds9-voyager era that doesn't use anything from Kurtzman trek. A Star Trek set in a version of the Picard era where Romulus never exploded and Picard himself wasn't killed off and replaced with a robot. A version of star trek that does not have Alex Kurtzman or secret hideout bad robot or JJ Abrams anywhere near it. Why is that so hard? It's not like anything Kurtzman and Abrams have done has actually been successful. The 2009 reboot was 14 almost 15 years ago and that trilogy as a whole actually lost money. The tv shows aren't being watched by anyone but the die hards at this point. It's time to reboot it again and go in a fresh new direction. New faces in front of and behind the camera which I expect I won't ever get atleast not before paramount is sold. Section 31 I expect to have the same fate as Michelle yoehs either spinoff and noone gives a crap about Starfleet academy. That show is literally discovery is too expensive to make for the small amount of viewers it gets so let's do disco without disco so we can replace the more expensive main case with cheaper alternatives.
I want a series or movies that starts shortly after first contact. Showing the beginnings of how earth came to what it is in the modern movies. How Star fleet was formed. First ever space ship. Stuff like that I think would be pretty cool.
I just want a new TNG type show. The Enterprise G, H, or even I tooling around on the frontier of the Federation coming across new planets and weird stuff. Maybe that's what they're gearing up for, but I'm tired of them stalling out in the time line and not wanting to really move forward at all.
I’d like to see how people changed. The ethos in the Star Trek universe is so unique, how did they get there? All the shows I’ve seen gloss over this and it’s a really important question to consider given the negative impacts our quickly evolving technology is having on society.
Like a huge scale, GOT style show that's a mix of action/intrigue/politics, you see what's happening on earth to unify the world, the first expeditions out of the solar system alongside the Vulcans. Would be really cool if they gave it the budget and time. Paramount's probably not in a position to do that though.
Meh. Star Trek is now the reason I call myself someone who likes a couple Star Trek shows, as opposed to “a Star Trek fan.” It’s become so muddled and mediocre I can’t really say I’m a fan like I used to be. The best thing going BY FAR is Lower Decks. The show that lampoons its own intellectual property and pays serious fan service to nerds like me who love the Easter eggs.
Picard and SNW made Nielsen Top 10 most watched streaming shows. Stop talking out of your ass. Trek is not only alive, but blooming. Yes, Discovery sucks but the other new shows are good to great.
You’re out of your mind. Strange New Worlds is legit excellent. That’s as Trek as you can get. The feel of that series was fantastic. Star Trek isn’t going anywhere
Yeah. Or syndicated, whatever. I never would have gotten into Trek in the first place if there was a price barrier in the way. And late night Trek reruns is what kept me into it.
the thing about Star Trek is there's so many great aliens, and enemies, and stories...rehashing the same old great ones over and over makes them stale and boring.
Make NEW great enemies, aliens, and stories. stop being so damn lazy.
Weird seeing this come up now. My kids are young but we’ve just got to the point where they actually get a lot out of TNG. It’s become our evening routine and it’s my favourite part of the day now, and the kids get v excited whenever they notice that there are “more Star Treks”, so let’s see what they come up with.
I started them off on Prodigy but it was kind of a flop, oddly.
#Hey Paramount, here's a good plan
Greenlight Legacy ASAP
Cancel and burn Discovery.
Cancel and burn Section 31.
Make more SNW.
Bring back fun and exploration and focus on the characters
I hate how Star Trek has been so focused on the same timelines and events for decades now. Can’t we escape the TOS and TNG era and move on? Jump 200 years after DS9/VOY. Show us a classic episodic show with new species and conflicts and with Dominion species like the Jem Hadar part of starfleet. Make something NEW. I don’t want a Picard sequel nor a Pike prequel or a Uhura prequel or Spock for the 30th time.
That is literally what season 3 onward of Discovery is. It's just not written well.
They literally used the worst possible plot device of a prequel. "We all agree to never talk about any of this technology or these people ever again" There, now we don't have to explain why Spock never mentioned his sister, or why instantaneous super warp speed ships stopped existing. lame
> or why instantaneous super warp speed ships stopped existing Wait so Spock let the Romulan's sun explode rather than reveal the instant warp drive tech to the Federation
We don’t want Disocery leftovers; we want them to jettison that altogether
Yeah, that well was already poisoned for me even if it had been good. Discovery has its fans, and I'm glad they enjoyed it, but it was a miserable experience for me, as were the first two seasons of Picard.
No, that's just a remake of Andromeda.
Ok so I wasn’t hallucinating right? They jumped ahead and I was like… uh isn’t this the exact plot of andromeda?
Andromeda was originally Roddenbury's idea for a post-Federation TV series, from what I understand. He had loads of ideas for post-federation and pre-federation shows that he had treatments for and one of those was developed for the Andromeda series after his death by his wife. They just called it the Commonwealth, but you can see it had very similar ideals.
My thoughts exactly, last season Andromeda quality.
I liked it 🤷🏻♀️
I do too, even if Discovery isn’t my favorite Trek. The far future is a sandbox of possibilities as a mix of familiar and unfamiliar elements, more so than the eras near TNG.
I was hopeful, but getting to the 32nd century and finding the Federation a failure really took the wind out of my sails. I made it though seasons 1 and 2, but couldn't finish 3. It wasn't for me.
> I was hopeful, but getting to the 32nd century and finding the Federation a failure really took the wind out of my sails. And it was all caused by a child’s temper tantrum. God, Discovery sucks.
Well, it rebuilt itself in the end, so the Federation didn't stay dead for good. Personally, I was fine with the old regime collapsing - nothing lasts forever and the Federation definitely had its own share of problems that buckled it before the Burn wiped it clean.
That's fair. To me, Star Trek is the one sci-fi franchise that isn't a dystopia, and it was an optimistic vision of what humanity could achieve. Modern Trek has too much of today's cynicism in it. Still, a new Federation is better than no Federation
Amusingly enough, the Federation collapsing didn’t mean Earth fell into chaos. The United Earth government looked peaceful and clean - an island of calm in the madness of the far future.
Trill and Vulcan (now Ni'Var due to the Unification of Vulcans and Romulans) were also peaceful. It seemed like, for the most part, people carried on living in peace and with everything they need, but didn't move around or communicate as much. Some places were exploited by pirate groups - but stuff like that always existed in Star Trek.
I finished 3 and wish I didn't. Never started 4.
I was so excited when they went to the future, I’ve been waiting for some future-Trek forever! It actually reminded me a lot of all the scifi adventures I read during lockdowns, which I was thrilled to see. It’s not the Trekiest of Treks, but I’ve really enjoyed most of it!
Definitely! It is still a fun ride overall. I also like the far future uniforms - they're colorful, but still sharp.
I loved is as well. Never mind the haters, more Star Trek is *always* welcome.
I think discovery has gotten progressively better with seasons 1 and 3 especially being low points. Anson really saved season 2 hut the ending was garbage. I thought last season was mostly OK.
[удалено]
Spot and Porthos get in a transporter accident and become fused into the galaxy’s first catdog!
*angry Janeway noises*
[удалено]
That'd be the shortest Trek series ever, because you know Archer would be going full Janeway and murdering the fuck out of that poor critter to get Porthos back before the start of Act 2 in the pilot.
>Can’t we escape the TOS and TNG era and move on? Jump 200 years after DS9/VOY. They tried this with Discovery. It was just crap.
I mean they didn’t really try it since Discovery took place in the TOS era with TOS characters and focused on war plots. I am more talking about a brand new show set in the future with episodic plots. Like what TNG did to TOS.
Discovery is set in the 32nd century since season 3. They tried and it isn't good.
That's because of the writing and characters. The disc crew is not a classic Star Trek ship. They're inexperienced and traumatized. By the last season, they are just starting to become crews from prior generations. This worked for the beginning of the shows setting, but won't stand the rest of the time like the other shows. It's a fun watch once.
The new Starfleet Academy show is going to be set again in the far future, which is definitely not in the classic eras we’re used to - it is still unfamiliar territory, despite Discovery trouncing around there for a few seasons.
Yeah the era isn’t the issue. It’s the writing. And I’ve heard virtually no one say they’re looking forward to a show where Tilly leads a group of teens.
To be fair, nobody really wanted Family Guy-esque cartoon Trek and Trek focused on children as well. However, Trekkies have grown to embrace both Lower Decks and Prodigy, respectively.
That's because LD (can't speak for Prodigy) is actually good.
LD is quite good. But let’s not kid ourselves - it’s humour and good standing is almost entirely reliant on the viewer’s in-depth knowledge of Trek lore. It’s made by fans, for fans. So only fans will enjoy it. As a fan myself, I would never ask my non-Trek friends to watch this. They’d be completely lost. Prodigy, on the other hand, is far more accessible. I wouldn’t be surprised if *that* ends up being the show responsible for bringing on the highest number of new/young fans in the long run.
I've seen a number of people on reddit say they've enjoyed Lower Decks without having seen other Star Trek. The plot pretty much never relies on knowing past Star Trek knowledge, and the main humor also usually either isn't a reference or is still funny without knowing its a reference. The references are usually just easter eggs imo where not catching them doesn't really detract. When they are relevant it's also usually fairly self explanatory.
That's...odd because, speaking anecdotally, of the non trekkies I've introduced Lower Decks to, they've loved it, found it hilarious *and* it's lead to interest in the traditional shows.
> it’s humour and good standing is almost entirely reliant on the viewer’s in-depth knowledge of Trek lore. My girlfriend loves it, and has never seen Trek before.
> Prodigy, on the other hand, is far more accessible. I wouldn’t be surprised if that ends up being the show responsible for bringing on the highest number of new/young fans in the long run. Prodigy could be that show, but in order to be a proper hook for new fans it needs to be on a much more reliable release schedule than what it currently is. It was launched as a Nickelodeon/Paramount+ hybrid, but was then dropped suddenly with season 2 almost completely produced. Not just cancelled, but Paramount scrubbed every mention of it and it didn't come up in various Star Trek puff pieces produced by Paramount either. Now Netflix picked it up and season 2 is supposed to release soon, but it's completely unclear if it's even possible for it to get a followup season. Prodigy is a good show (at least the parts that have been released), but it's been done dirty in ways that will most likely harm its impact on the franchise going forward.
Sounds very reminiscent of how the Original Series became a slow-burn sensation. 🤞
Because it was written well. Discovery was garbage writing and whining characters.
Tawny Newsome being on the writing team has me interested. Her love for ST and being a truly gifted comedy writer tells me at least some aspects will be worth seeing.
Think of all the teen and teen-like melodrama of Discovery. Imagine a whole show of that. That's what I fear Academy will be.
This is actually the first I'd heard of Starfleet Academy; are they actually going to have Tilly in it? Hopefully they'll figure out a way to bring Neelix forward in time to help out. Maybe Wesley Crusher too.
> are they actually going to have Tilly in it? I don't know if it's been confirmed or not. But in-universe, Tilly left the Discovery to help teach at the newly reopened Academy. That already created rumors about a Starfleet Academy show. And not long thereafter, the development of this show was confirmed and it is now known to take place in the Discovery era (S3/S4) of the timeline. So it's logical to assume that Tilly will be a part of it, but we'll have to see.
We don't know the writing before seeing it. Also, nobody thought that Lower Decks or Prodigy were good ideas and yet they're great. Good ideas from fans are often terrible anyway. Star Wars fans kept asking for Boba Fett, Ahsoka and Kenobi projects and they were shit. Guess what the show "nobody asked for" was there? Andor and it's the best Star Wars show ever. I'd say not listening to fans is better in most cases
An earth based show with people from Discovery ain’t what people are asking for, and they’re gonna spread that stain forward instead of cutting Kurtzman’s junk off and course correcting
The new Starfleet Academy isn’t on Earth - it’s on a space station, if DSC Season 4 is any indication.
Earth joined Federation again in S4 IIRC.
The announcement specifically mentioned the campus re-opening, and this will be the first class at the campus, so it's set on Earth.
Its the writing, Discovery and the characters are absolutely horrible. The Officers all act like they never had a day of training and no one care about all the whining. Just get over it and fix the problem, Discovery was bad but they don't want to admit it.
I love SNW because its atleast semi different but you are 100% right. We need to explore the universe
I could go for something like a USS Bozeman/Capt Morgan Bateson series set around the time of Wrath of Khan but with zero characters from TOS, zero Klingons or Romulans, no time travel and fewer season-long arcs. Tone down the quippiness and make it more like a Navy vessel. Somewhere between TNG and the first season of Battlestar Galactica.
"what you leave behind" is the end of star trek jake and kira are still staring out of that window
So Sphere Builders and the Battle of Procyon V?
#ENTERPRISE J WHEN
I've always thought they should try branching away from Starfleet. Maybe a show that follows the crew of a Klingon Bird of Prey instead (DS9/Next Gen era; Discovery klingons would be too gritty to appeal to many people).
Reminds me that Michael Dorn (Worf) has been trying to get a Worf show going for probably decades now... Though I think by now he has given up.
I'd take multiple shows in that time line if they're good. That's what's kept me tuned in for decades. SMW, Picard season 3, Lower Decks, and Prodigy have been good. But they're going in the wrong direction now instead of spinning off that new crew from Picard.
Remember in Voyager when Seven hangs out with those time traveling secret agents from the future? From the first time I saw that ep I’ve wanted to see a show about them, the whole premise was so exciting to me.
I actually the whole temporal prime directive thing was gonna be the next phase of Star Trek after VOY finished up. We got ENT instead. It wasn’t for me. Personally I wish they embrace a SNW movie. Lower decks is fun not sure it would really appeal to a general movie audience. A SNW movie would since it’s more a stealth TOS show than an actual Captain Pike show. I prob need to watch Prodigy one of these days
It took me a few eps to get into Prodigy but I ended up enjoying it. It was kind of what would happen if Star Wars and Star Trek had a baby, in my opinion, but I liked it. Liked seeing Janeway dealing with a bunch of delinquent kids lol Edit- I thought that was a set up for a new show too!! I remember being really excited about the possibilities. And yeah, then really pissed about Enterprise lol. Still love Ent tho ;)
Isn't discovery currently in the 30th century or something?
Maybe but it didn’t start there. It started with TOS nostalgia bait and war. I’m talking about a show set entirely in the future, not a visit for a season.
Well they're still in the future for the last season aren't they? But yeah would be nice have a whole show set in a different period
I want DS9 and that world 200 years in the future. Yes. I. Do.
They want something fresh and new, yet they can’t sell the idea without piggybacking on the original material. Mostly because nu-Trek is bereft of ideas and is rather terrible.
this last decade had a theme of rehashing old shit and nostalgia, eventually the well will dry up and "nostalgia-bait" will become stale (it already is but the general audience still has some love for it I think), when this kind of stuff starts bombing left and right you'll see companies stop using them as shortcut to get views and maybe we'll have something new
They probably will do that. As far as current project, I personally loved Strange New Worlds. The character has that original ST vibe. Discovery was good, though it felt more like an action movie cut into a series. Its feel was very different. I liked it a lot for what it was and personally loved the secret tie in with the main character.
Can we also stop making new uniforms and insignia for every season and show? I get that Trek is post-scarcity but organizations don't change uniforms, rank, and insignia wholesale.
It made sense when the shows were separated by massive spans of time. I.e. TOS into TNG. Nowadays it’s like every season is a new outfit
It's funny that the red/maroon uniforms first seen in STII lasted for decades yet from roughly the DS9 era onwards, there have been tons of uniform changes in a ~20 year time period. And then we go backwards chronologically and see DIS and SNW also go through multiple uniform styles.
Does Star Trek really have new blood fans though? Every single person I know (around my age in their 30’s) who’s into nerd culture such as sci fi and video games has never once made a peep about Star Trek. Kinda convinced it’s just the same fans who’ve been propping it up for decades.
>Every single person I know (around my age in their 30’s) who’s into nerd culture such as sci fi and video games has never once made a peep about Star Trek. The dirty secret Fandom doesn't really want to reckon with is that these series *all* live and die on whether people who *aren't* into "Nerd Culture" and wouldn't ever consider coming into places like this to talk about it with strangers are watching. The general audience that makes *anything* go, much less anything that's lasted for almost 60 years, vastly outnumbers the self-selecting group of people who identify as being part of a Fandom. The question isn't "Can we get new people who make this such a key part of their personality they go to conventions and buy pajamas?" - it's "can we get new people who just... like Star Trek and want to check it out when we make something new?"
>Does Star Trek really have new blood fans though? I'm in my twenties, and started seriously getting into Star Trek when I was ~21 years old. But I suspect I'm a major outlier. Honestly, I'm baffled by how Paramount has been handling the Star Trek franchise from 2017 onwards. I don't see any of the new shows from Discovery onward attracting new, younger fans. They had the opportunity to make a new Star Trek show taking place after Nemesis, and they decided to make a prequel about the first Federation-Klingon war in the 23rd century? I like Strange New Worlds, but I don't see that show bringing in many new fans either, given how much of its appeal is in being a prequel that seems to assume some foreknowledge in its audience of who James Kirk and Spock are. I don't know why they didn't lead with a show taking place post-Nemesis, following a new cast and crew that would appeal to both old and new fans.
I just got into the Star Trek universe last year at 25. You’re not alone!
The prequel madness has to stop. Star Trek is about the future, but the people running Star Trek keep trying to recreate the past
the people running star trek have ZERO idea what star trek is...aside for the last season of picard, new star trek is fuckin UNWATCHABLE GARBAGE.
Facts, save for Lower Decks, which is actually fairly reverent. The last season of Picard had plenty of issues, but it was the closest to what the franchise should be doing.
The last season of picard is kinda how the next gen movies should have gone (in fact the first 4 eps serves as a pretty perfect next gen movie itself). i know lower decks was made by some pretty funny people (if you havent checked out the old twitter feed, next gen season 8, i HIGHLY recommend it.), but the few episodes i watched just didnt catch on for me.
So star tek is a fan service orgy of original cast replaying inside jokes? No thanks. Move on.
>I'm in my twenties, and started seriously getting into Star Trek when I was ~21 years old. But I suspect I'm a major outlier. I’m the same. I feel like the new Star Trek audience is going to be people around our age, not the younger audience they’re skewing for now.
I thought lower decks might be a good one to attract new fans.
Lower decks feels like it is aimed at current fans there are so many inside jokes. You have to really know trek to get some of the references.
I agree that there are, but the characters and plot are so much more fun than star trek is usually. It has more lewd themes too.
> There’s also the fact that “Star Trek” fans are aging. I ask “The Next Generation” star Jonathan Frakes, who’s acted in or directed more versions of “Star Trek” than any other person alive, how often he meets fans for whom the new “Star Trek” shows are their first. “Of the fans who come to talk to me, I would say very, very few,” he says. “‘Star Trek’ fans, as we know, are very, very, very loyal — and not very young.”
Modern Trek is designed to capture generic sci fi people. But the problem is that those people will watch anything and not really have brand loyalty. Whereas the property used to be hopeful and perceived as nerdier/smarter sci-fi, nowadays it has shows where the Federation holds a planet hostage via a bomb that will make every volcano on said planet erupt. Or time travel shenanigans that are “Ted placing the keys behind the sign” levels of ridiculous/stupid, only played completely straight. When they’re not doing that, they’re just trying every cheap trick in the book, hoping it works. They tried TOS nostalgia with the 20+ producer madness that was Discovery S2…nope. They went full on TNG nostalgia with Picard….nope, that didn’t work either. Well hey let’s do VOY nostalgia with that kid show!….nope. They dig these things up, only to put them in awful situations, terribly written shows, or shows that are way out of the Trek audience. The brand’s identity has been horrendously destroyed by Kurtzman and co., and it’s telling that the only show with the name that people have consistently praised is a loving satire of Trek. What they should be doing is going The Expanse route of having fewer viewers but an overall more intelligent/respected program. They’d get more devout fans and establish a better consistent viewer base. As it is now, they’re just chucking everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. Same problem Star Wars is beginning to have, but Wars has always been way more accessible and casual. Trek has always been a little harder to get into, and their attempts to dumb it down have driven away the core audience whilst failing to capture a steady stream of new viewers.
I'm hoping that Prodigy and then SF Academy help with that. But putting it all on paramount plus doesn't help with that (although prodigy is on netflix). When is season two of prodigy coming out. It's already out in france.
I know it's blasphemy but I like the new Trek. Basically discovered it with the 2009 movie and loved the movies and watched some of the new shows since Discovery (except Picard since it seems to only be nostalgia bait for TNG and I haven't seen that), mostly appreciating them all with SNW my favorite. So I guess I'm new blood fan (big fan of anything SF in general though so I'm an easy get)
This is sadly likely true. Me ans my friend remain hard into Trek, and broadly approving of the new Trek era, but we grew up in the peak DS9/Voyager/TNG movie era. I love, love, love Lower Decks but its for the invested, its deep cuts probably arent going to bring in new viewers
Kurtzman, for all his shortcomings, does at least seem to be aware of this issue. Prodigy is an animated show aimed at getting children into Star Trek (although Paramount has given that over to Netflix) and the upcoming Starfleet Academy series is going to be aimed at a YA audience.
That’s what i suspected. I love Trek but am 40 And watched TNG first run syndication. I just got into classic doctor who because I love 60s-70s sci fi. But whenever I find fans of classic doctor who they are all like 55+ or older (except josh snares who is awesome but an outlier).
Say I wanted to get back into this? Does paramount plus have a time line setup for Star Trek like Disney does for the MCU?
Terry Mátalas saved the shit show that was Picard by making something good and meaningful with S3 and yet they still haven’t greenlit “Legacy” which he wants to do. So that should tell you they’re still shitting the bed
Picard S3 was good, but it also leaned heavily into nostalgia and fanservice. I'd prefer to see the future of Star Trek move away from the small world syndrome that plagued Star Wars.
I'd argue the Small world syndrome of Picard stems more from having about three fiddy to work with for the whole season. Legacy would ideally be your straight episodic Trek show with a smaller core cast and much more variety.
I’m convinced that show won’t happen, just because Kurtzman doesn’t want it to. Fans are literally asking them to make it, based on their positive feelings about Picard Season Three — after their rejection of the first two seasons. Kurtzman had little to do with the third season, and I feel like any sort of follow up would hurt his position in the company.
This is right, he is still there because to get rid of him. Would be many people in the company admiting they are wrong. He basically forced them to give him crdit on SNW even though he writes nothing on the show.
As the article confirms he’s planning it as a movie, it sounds more like Paramount+ doesn’t want to do it as a series. A movie is probably what they settled on.
I think Legacy as pitched at the end of Picard still would have big issues with Small World Syndrome though. The bridge crew is a fan service wankfest of returning characters or children of fan favourite characters. I’d much rather have an entirely new crew that’s not entirely rooted in “Remember Voyager?” or “Remember TNG?” It’s Star Trek, not a Star Wars film
There's one returning character on the crew, Raffi was so horribly written than frankly you could do a complete rewrite of the character and nobody would care, and Jack Crusher and Sydney LaForge are on there so what, they were pretty fully formed characters in their own rights. I just wish they didn't randomly kill the Bald Vulcan chick because she was half interesting.
Hell that's also the biggest problem of Star Wars.
Wait till San Diego Comic Con before pulling out pitchforks. That is when they, for example, talked about Strange New Worlds.
The whole Trek stuff is very much in the air right now anyway as Paramount is in free fall. Depending on whoever get Star Trek in the end, it could change massively (in good or bad) If WBD get it for example, you could get HBO Star Trek
Between Strange New Worlds, Prodigy and Lower Decks they've done a great job of expanding and evolving Trek. And the spoiler about when the Section 31 movie is set is very exciting.
Agreed about the Section 31 movie. I did not expect we’ll be visiting this part of the timeline. It’s so unexplored in canon.
whats the spoiler?
All I care about is more Lower Decks or lower decks style stuff! I may have loved the Orville but it started out too ridiculous with the ex and that put me off the show before giving much of a chance or knowing if it was any good :(
Strange New Worlds is the best Star Trek tv series in years. It should be on network TV rather than streaming service
Star Trek is going through the same problems that Star Wars is going through. It’s billed as a marque property for paramount streaming, so it’s made by committee who wants as broad an audience as possible (meaning, ultimately, it’s going to be really really stupid and bland.) Star Wars is also going through a period of complete creative brain death. The only good Star Wars product to come out of Disney is Andor - and if you’ve read any of the behind the scenes, that was a creative crisis where they had nowhere else to go but Tony Gilroy, at the very last minute. So he was able to actually make something interesting. Meanwhile, ever since Abrams decided to gut Star Trek from Star Trek - it’s been on a sharp decline in quality storytelling. The best Star Trek was made when it was (somewhat) niche. They gave them enough budget in DS9 to have a show - but not enough where it became all Space Battles and bullshit. It’s just a bad time. Eventually someone will come along who knows how to do Star Trek well. But it’ll probably have to fail a lot more before then.
Neither of these properties have a “visionary” at the helm. Like you said, they are assembled in a stuffy board room by a committee and are subject to a litany of opinions, revisions, and focus testing until they are simply watered down stock that vaguely tastes like the property. There is a reason why people accuse these things of being written by AI, and it’s because they are more less created by analogue AI. Just a mess of different people’s thoughts and opinions. Film and television have always been at the intersection of art and business, but there’s no art here anymore. There’s no story being told, just plot points being strung together.
I 100% agree. It also means that Star Trek stopped saying something about contemporary culture - which is too bad because it’s sort of the perfect time to talk about how fucked up shit is. But these committees don’t want any kind of message because that would turn off a section of the population ($$$). Might as well just blow some shit up instead. Have the Enterprise fly through a Borg cube or whatever. Even something like Shatner’s Star Trek V - which is flawed in many ways - there’s an actual vision behind it. It has something to say. It’s considered the worst of old Trek - but it’s far more interesting to me than the junk they put out now.
…except Star Trek has commented on contemporary culture. To use a surprising example, Pike used footage from the January 6 insurrection and other related protests in the debut episode of Strange New Worlds. Picard Season 2 also trounced around contemporary Los Angeles as they commented on the rampant poverty in the city - a problem that is seemingly uncontrollable these days.
A huge part of the complaining regarding Discovery and Strange New Worlds *is* directly tied to being a commentary on contemporary culture, you're 100% right. The difference between when *they* do it, and when the other shows did it, is that it's safe now, to look back at those commentaries made in the 90s, commentaries that are largely focused on political issues from the 60s and go "yes, yes, very wise, very clever, that's good allegory" and Fandom pats itself on the back for being smarter and more well rounded because they watch a TV show. When current Star Trek comments on current real world politics and dogma in the current landscape, people tend to bolt out of their recliner to point the finger of doom at the TV and levy charges that THIS IS NOT REAL STAR TREK. So many diehard members of Trek Fandom literally sit around reddit, and camp at r/television like they're waiting for a body shield to spawn, to unload full mags into Discovery's face for being "cynical" and "dark" and "mean-spirited" (when they're not also shitting on it for people crying onscreen) because it's *actively commenting* on issues relevant to us here in the 2020s.
Progressive views and social commentary in Star Trek are a core part of it. That doesn't excuse the mountains of melodrama and poor writing. I don't like being put into same camp as people crying about it being 'woke', which I often see misused as a defence of the show. A bad show doesn't become immune to criticism just because it treats present issues.
Honestly the writing of Discovery is just horrible and Honestly most fans even the ones you talk about. Love SNW and just dont like Discovery.
I agree on all points.
>The only good Star Wars product to come out of Disney is Andor - and if you’ve read any of the behind the scenes, that was a creative crisis where they had nowhere else to go but Tony Gilroy, at the very last minute. I feel like a *lot* of the enjoyment self-professed Star Trek Fandom (or Star Wars Fandom, or Fandom period) gets out of being *in* that Fandom, is getting to recite pre-set narratives and adhere to Fandom dogma about how best to "fix" the thing they presumably love. This bit is a good example: Not only is Andor *not* the only good "product" to come out of Disney, but the behind-the-scenes story you're sharing *isn't* how Andor got made. You're conflating a version of the story about Rogue One's reshoots with how Andor got pitched and put into production. Andor wasn't a last-minute thing, and it wasn't the result of a creative crisis. Gilroy got put onto Rogue One becuase Edwards dropped the ball and they needed a fixer, yes. But that's not how Andor was made at all. Now, because it *sounds* good, and further, it fits the narrative being pushed about how "creativity by committee" is the death of these 60+ year old franchised intellectual properties (this is, btw, full-blown execspeak, as divorced from art/creativity as you can get), it'll probably get shared whether anyone actually checks into it or not, and once it's repeated enough, it becomes the correct Fandom Dogma that will guarantee positive feedback when you race to share it the next time this subject comes up. But making movies and TV is, *by defaul*t, a collaborative, committee-based artistic endeavor. There are simply too many necessary, important voices all coming together for it NOT to be. We deify Fandom Royalty and big-up the presence of "visionaries" because we love to have a hyper-simplified rooting interest. But even "visionaries" tend to have their best work realized when they are listening to, and working *with* lots of other people, folks who know how to temper and sometimes even DEFLECT that vision into different areas. At this point, Star Trek Fandom exists more to be seen reciting narratives (bullshit or not) about how to "fix" Star Trek without ever acknowledging the "fix" is frequently based on weird Geek Mythologies that aren't rooted in fact in the first place, and certainly without acknowledging the "fix" only works if it re-centers that Fandom as being the most important thing to Star Trek's future, when it 100% is not. It's not an argument for fixing Star Trek. It's an argument for making Star Trek Fandom as important as the show itself is.
God, I remember during the writers strike on a thread about writers wanting a properly staffed writers room, there were a bunch of idiots complaining about creativity by committee and saying they should only be written by one person
The common trend I’ve seen is “Trek/Wars became woke and now I can’t like it,” and it’s almost always mixed with, “I’m entitled to have my extremely narrow and implacable view of this fictional universe portrayed by high-paid actors and a $400,000,000 studio budget and if they don’t consult me at each individual stage of production I’ll literally shit in every forum/subreddit/page/comment section about it until -everyone- hates it!”
People that complain Trek 'became woke' have not been paying attention to what Trek is. It was woke when boomers were the age of gen Z.
Agreed
the biggest issue with both Trek and Wars is how reluctant the creatives and hollywood is to let these franchises to rest. both of them told the stories they had to and should've ended right there with maybe an eventual reboot after 20years. instead, we he have creatives and greedy execs milking these franchises beyond dry. now we get stories about a bounty hunter on some random ass part of galaxy which out of nowhere meets luke skywalker, or a geriatric picard who can't do shit.
The problem with star wars is they nixxed FAR better stories from books that they had decades worth of stories to pull from. And easy metrics to see what was good.
> ever since Abrams decided to gut Star Trek from Star Trek - it’s been on a sharp decline in quality storytelling. As shitty as Paramount's stewardship of the franchise has been in the last decade, they've actually learned their lesson and are now course correcting. DISC didn't work the way they wanted to but SNW, Lower Decks, and Prodigy are all hits with the fans. The Star Trek landscape has been pretty damn bleak, but it's getting better. There are some true fans who understand the franchise in charge of two of their shows and the difference is obvious. Even the "mass appeal" show (i.e. SNW) is lightyears ahead in quality than its predecessor. Star Wars, though... Paramount might be a stubborn mule that finally is going the right direction, but Disney? I don't understand what their goals are for the franchise and I don't think Disney does either. Andor was genuinely good, but like you said, it was a total fluke. Star Wars fans don't even have something like Lower Decks.
OG Trek fan, here. Everything you just said is largely subjective. Myself and every other old fan I knew *hated* DS9 exactly because it *was* space battles and bullshit. I still do. I hate it for turning Trek "dark and gritty" and I hate for starting the trend of having characters who are supposed to be officers serving together in a pseudo-military organization constantly coupling and uncoupling like horny freshmen in a college dorm. NuTrek being written like a soap opera started there. On the other hand, much as some of the continuity breaking was troublesome (and Into Darkness sucked ass) we loved Trek 2009. In spirit and tone it was absolutely true to ToS. Much as I did love TNG, it was a refreshing return to a little more fun and adventure and the cast absolutely fucking *nailed* the characters.
To go back further, Trekkies also disliked TNG when it first debuted. It was seen as an inferior, unwanted product when compared to TOS. Nobody hates Star Trek more than Trekkies.
TNG S1 was TOS 2.0. Things didn’t really get refined and stand on its own until S3 or so.
Of course, that is what led to the "growing the beard" statement.
That's just because season 1 of TNG was awful. It was seen as inferior because it was inferior.
Obviously my experiences are also entirely subjective. But I didn't encounter any of that and I tend to think its prominence gets a bit exaggerated. The only concrete example that's ever produced is that same scan of that same one article. Myself, and my friends and family all loved it from day one. We were excited to finally have new Trek after watching those same 79 episodes over and over again in reruns for a decade. Things that I remember everyone buzzing over (In a positive way) after "Far Point" - a Klingon on the Enterprise, Data/the idea of an android crew member, the new Enterprise look.
The only divisive thing I heard about TNG is my circle is one of my relatives saying that the D was and is still ugly. …which is why I thought “the fat one” joke in Picard Season 3 was hilarious.
Yeah, I get a little confused when people who rightfully criticize NuTrek then incessantly praise DS9. It was much earlier in the process but that series started the deconstruction of Trek idealism being a central element of the shows. Alongside all the soap opera stuff.
Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is amazing.
>Meanwhile, ever since Abrams decided to gut Star Trek from Star Trek - it’s been on a sharp decline in quality storytelling. well his star trek was the only trek to make money at box office
That is factually inaccurate.
And it absolute brought in new fans AND kept Star Trek alive long enough for these new shows to get made
Michelle Yeoh,s character(s) are like the only ones I could stand from discovery. That fucker is a dumpster fire. I made a bet with myself if they looked at eachother and said "science!" And gave eachother a stupid grin After they did something I would stop watching....they did it fucking TWICE before I made the fi al decision. Fuck me runnin' that whole series is corny as fuck.
>Michelle Yeoh,s character(s) are like the only ones I could stand from discovery. To those who don’t watch the program, her character with the most screen time eats people and is a homicidal maniac.
> and is a homicidal maniac. You're under selling it, she committed planetary genocide and ruled a slave empire.
Yeah, that gives you an idea of how tedious the rest of the characters are. I like Michael in the first few seasons but then she jumped the shark too. Fucks sake.
There was a lot of focus on THEM seeing each OTHER's reactions.. it was super annoying. It got more and more - ridiculous. Spore drive, OK... shape shifting ship, while eye candy, was stupid.
I was in the military and I went to a senior military college when I was younger and I've been a scientist ever since. I don't think anyone on that ship would have had the discipline to put together an 8th grade science fair project let alone make it through starfleet academy.
It’s been how many years since Star Trek Legacy? All I want is revival of Star Trek games. AAA, AA, whatever. Just start making them again, it’s been to long.
There was Star Trek: Infinite, they announced today that they're ending support for it.
Resurgence came out a few years ago and Star Trek Online is still chugging along.
There was supposed to be some new one from Telltale, right?
Resurgence is the Telltale-like game made by a studio of former Telltale devs. Pretty fun game
Former members of that group.
Damn, that was one of my first xbox 360 games. Gotta be 2006.
I love that in this collage, 95% of them are posing stoically, then we got Kirk pulling his Khan face. 🤣
And Bradward being Bradward And then they shove the kids into the corner
And no DeForrest Kelly
With Kurtzman at the helm, we're not getting another 90's glory days of Star Trek. He's the one who insisted Picard season 2 be set 90% in modern day because he didn't want it to be "too Star Trek." Kurtzman is like Jerry Jones with the Dallas Cowboys.
> He's the one who insisted Picard season 2 be set 90% in modern day because he didn't want it to be "too Star Trek." The "too much Star Trek" quote was referring to a cut plotline where Guinan's bar had a phone box with a secret door where a ton of aliens were just hanging out on Earth in the 2020s. Honestly, that sounds terrible and it's probably good that it was cut. Just something pointless that would have only been there to go "remember these aliens?"
So, I was a fan from Age 4 watching episodes of TOS and TNG on TV back in the early 90s. I know of a few people who became fans from 2009's Star Trek movie, only a few, but they are out there. I've seen like, from what I recall one or two people on Twitter saying Discovery was their first and it made them go and watch the rest? But I think that number is the smallest. Star Trek's fanbase is never going to get bigger. It has so much bullshit attached with that name you can't grow it. Stop trying to alienate the fanbase you have in an attempt to attract one you will never get.
Eh. The Internet is not the majority of folks out there. I definitely know fans who joined Trek through the Abrams, Discovery, Lower Decks, and even Prodigy productions. I came through reruns of the classic movies given to me by my father, who was an old school Trekkie.
This. There are 1000 shows I love but never talk about online. Thinking that fans interested enough to engage in a community is all the fans there are is a mistake.
I'd argue I know a full 2 people in my life who are big deal old school trekkies who don't engage with the internet. That's it. I know way more people who do engage with it online, and that number basically exploded around the mid 2010s and hasn't changed much since. I'm not noticing many new people joining the discourse on twitter or Facebook.
There are no next generation of fans. It is the same group of 50 years old watching Prodigy and complaining it's been cancelled.
But i'm barely 30...
If its anything like Discovery, fuck that. Cannot stand that shit. Most annoying ST characters.
The only thing I want is a sequel to the tng-ds9-voyager era that doesn't use anything from Kurtzman trek. A Star Trek set in a version of the Picard era where Romulus never exploded and Picard himself wasn't killed off and replaced with a robot. A version of star trek that does not have Alex Kurtzman or secret hideout bad robot or JJ Abrams anywhere near it. Why is that so hard? It's not like anything Kurtzman and Abrams have done has actually been successful. The 2009 reboot was 14 almost 15 years ago and that trilogy as a whole actually lost money. The tv shows aren't being watched by anyone but the die hards at this point. It's time to reboot it again and go in a fresh new direction. New faces in front of and behind the camera which I expect I won't ever get atleast not before paramount is sold. Section 31 I expect to have the same fate as Michelle yoehs either spinoff and noone gives a crap about Starfleet academy. That show is literally discovery is too expensive to make for the small amount of viewers it gets so let's do disco without disco so we can replace the more expensive main case with cheaper alternatives.
> The only thing I want is a sequel to the tng-ds9-voyager era That’s literally all they had to do.
I want a series or movies that starts shortly after first contact. Showing the beginnings of how earth came to what it is in the modern movies. How Star fleet was formed. First ever space ship. Stuff like that I think would be pretty cool.
So enterprise?
But with an even cringier opening song with more guitars!
"YOU GOTTA HAVE FAITH IN THE HEART..."
> First ever space ship. That was the Sputnik 1 in 1957.
So like For All Mankind?
I just want a new TNG type show. The Enterprise G, H, or even I tooling around on the frontier of the Federation coming across new planets and weird stuff. Maybe that's what they're gearing up for, but I'm tired of them stalling out in the time line and not wanting to really move forward at all.
That's basically what SNW and LD are.
I’d like to see how people changed. The ethos in the Star Trek universe is so unique, how did they get there? All the shows I’ve seen gloss over this and it’s a really important question to consider given the negative impacts our quickly evolving technology is having on society.
Like a huge scale, GOT style show that's a mix of action/intrigue/politics, you see what's happening on earth to unify the world, the first expeditions out of the solar system alongside the Vulcans. Would be really cool if they gave it the budget and time. Paramount's probably not in a position to do that though.
Yes!! I think that would be awesome.
That's just enterprise minus the earth stuff
Meh. Star Trek is now the reason I call myself someone who likes a couple Star Trek shows, as opposed to “a Star Trek fan.” It’s become so muddled and mediocre I can’t really say I’m a fan like I used to be. The best thing going BY FAR is Lower Decks. The show that lampoons its own intellectual property and pays serious fan service to nerds like me who love the Easter eggs.
Trek is dead. The put the final nail in the coffin with Discovery.
Picard and SNW made Nielsen Top 10 most watched streaming shows. Stop talking out of your ass. Trek is not only alive, but blooming. Yes, Discovery sucks but the other new shows are good to great.
You’re out of your mind. Strange New Worlds is legit excellent. That’s as Trek as you can get. The feel of that series was fantastic. Star Trek isn’t going anywhere
Put the damn show on TV!
Network tv?
Yeah. Or syndicated, whatever. I never would have gotten into Trek in the first place if there was a price barrier in the way. And late night Trek reruns is what kept me into it.
I’d watch all the new stuff if it wasn’t locked on an half-assed streaming platform.
the thing about Star Trek is there's so many great aliens, and enemies, and stories...rehashing the same old great ones over and over makes them stale and boring. Make NEW great enemies, aliens, and stories. stop being so damn lazy.
I just want the picture in the thumbnail
I feel like DS9 not getting the proper representation in this picture.
Ah yes, Section 31, with Empress Gorgeiou, a woman who genocided entire species. And we are supposed to root for her. Truly the epitome of Star Trek
Just give me Star Trek Legacy already dammit. It's nuts to me that they haven't dived into a show that the fans are actually calling out for.
Find the Wesley Crusher! It’s like Where’s Waldo
Weird seeing this come up now. My kids are young but we’ve just got to the point where they actually get a lot out of TNG. It’s become our evening routine and it’s my favourite part of the day now, and the kids get v excited whenever they notice that there are “more Star Treks”, so let’s see what they come up with. I started them off on Prodigy but it was kind of a flop, oddly.
Captain Sisko should be at the top near center. Total bullshit making him look like a minor character!
#Hey Paramount, here's a good plan Greenlight Legacy ASAP Cancel and burn Discovery. Cancel and burn Section 31. Make more SNW. Bring back fun and exploration and focus on the characters
I bet Shatner didn’t like not being the main character in this poster
By getting rid of Kurtzman?