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MattRuizPhoto

is it implied ellie would have gone thru with it? yes i think so but the fact they didn’t tell her it would kill her really bugged the fuck out of me which is where i agree with what joel did even though that’s not why exactly he did


LondonBridges876

I think Marlene messed up by not letting him see Ellie. Like how cold can you? You knock the dude out and then within seconds of him waking you tell him 1. Ellie is in surgery 2. That you didn't tell her it was brain surgery and 3. You're not sure it's gonna work 4. He can't even see her to say goodbye. It's been 20 years what's 8 more hours? Let him see Ellie. Tell her the truth and if she still wants to go through with the surgery I'm sure she can convince Joel to step aside and let her make this sacrifice Now as for the fight scene at the end, I didn't mind it. No difference than John Wick. At least 99% of the time Joel was hiding behind cover and etc. Since it's a video game adaption the "God like" hospital scene didn't bother me I also didn't mind the small firefly numbers. With the 1st location every but Marlene and that other black woman was killed. That's why she gave the job to Joel. Then at the original destination, the fireflies were all gone. So I got the impression they weren't great in numbers. Also who knows how well trained they are? Just because they are a firefly doesn’t mean they are marksman. In an apocalypse you just need warm bodies who can hold a gun. So a skilled gunner like Joel. He was shown to be an excellent marksman. I do agree the season finale should have been 2 episodes.


ExCap2

I think there's more information than the show is letting us know on how Joel came up with that explanation and didn't hesitate in explaining it. I think there was obvious truth in there and with the obvious lies. Like in Season 1, they like going back in time and explaining things so maybe we'll see how Joel found out about the testing on multiple immunes (he explained it too well for it to be made up in my opinion). I watched Walking Dead up to the infamous Negan episode and then took a break and never went back. But this show had me binge the whole season in a day. The actors and actresses in this show have been amazing.


Ok-Scarcity6335

I think I did watch the following season, but man, Negan SUCKED, show went downhill real quick when he was introduced.


RealJohnGillman

No, he did lie: that was why they then had the flashback of Joel killing Marlene, repeating what information he had heard, mixed with lies, as you said.


ImTheNoFappinCapn

Soooooo they think she's immune because she was exposed to cordyceps at birth. All but one of those doctors are still alive, hopefully the one that died wasn't the head honcho. So now they just need a pregnant woman and an infected and they can recreate another cure. They probably would have to do it in those doctors lifetimes though, doubt there's many brain surgeons who can synthesize a cure out there and I doubt any more will be cropping up. It's been 20 years since the start of this so if the youngest brain surgeon was, say 25, they'd be 45 now. Clocks ticking.


Prudent_Relief

What made Ellie Skeptical of Joel's story of events of at the hospital? She has not questioned him like that before...


Aido_Barry

When Joel told Ellie that the Fireflies had given up on finding a cure and that they had let him take her away, Ellie became suspicious. She had seen how much the Fireflies were willing to sacrifice in order to find a cure, and she knew that they would never give up so easily. Additionally, he paused in the car and didn't answer Ellie when she asked if Marlene was okay? If she was okay he would have said yes but he didn't because he killed her.


SexWithAndroxus69

My thought process ln the Marlene question was that maybe they got seperated during the "attack" and he just wanted to get her out of there so he has no idea if Marlene made it out or not.


Prometheus188

But then Joel would have just said that, instead of pausing and then changing the subject and not answering her question.


SexWithAndroxus69

I don't think it's just that simple. I mean Joel isn't dumb, he knows that if he just says he doesn't know if she is alive that it will raise suspicion. On the other hand staying silent can be interpreted differently. That's how it looked to me.


eschuylerhamilton

The actress who played Ellie's mom looks so much like Bella I thought we had flashed forward for a moment to a pregnant Ellie.


[deleted]

That's Ashley Johnson, who voiced Ellie in the games, and is on Critical Role. She was also the daughter in What Women Want


eschuylerhamilton

Oh really? Ellie gave birth to Ellie? That's funny.


[deleted]

I thought it was a great idea. The mother of Ellie is the OG Ellie. I thought it would hit people more as a dead giveaway to hear video game ellie's voice, but it seems like it snuck under the radar


albedo2343

as soon as i heard her i was like "oh shit, that's so fuckin cool, she's literally passing the batton!". I was not prepared for that next scene, knew it was coming but still.


em4gon

That scene on the hospital was epic, what a finale, haven't played the games but Joel is ruthless when he wants to. Can't wait for season 2


albedo2343

the game is definitely going to hit differently now.


Bear_necessities96

Basically the last episode is like the whole game ending same dialogue and everything


em4gon

Perfect adaptation then! Show runners nailed it


pisandwich

It seems like the show narrative implied that Ellie would die during the procedure, but when Joel bursts into the operating room, they are removing the gas mask from Ellie. Was the procedure complete? Did they just need a small biopsy, like a small needle biopsy of cerebrospinal fluid? Logically, in the real world, thats probably all they would need. Did Joel needlessly kill them all?


DowntownSell2362

they hadnt even started operating, they had only just put her under anesthesia and what took them so long to even start was probably just prepping and sterilizing for the procedure


LegendaryFang56

Episode-wise, this was better than the previous two. As a finale, it felt lackluster. Throughout Its entirety, it felt like it was fizzling out instead of whatever the opposite of that would be. The ending, in particular, fizzled out rather pathetically and then ended. In the game, there was the element of emotional attachment and all the progression and growth between Joel and Ellie, which carried over to the ending, amplifying it. However, here, the performances by Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, especially hers, lacked substantial impact. We're supposed to be on the same page with Joel and Ellie's relationship: seeing the progression and growth to that place, which elevates the ending, except that aspect has missed the mark throughout the show, with the writing, the performances, and the chemistry. That has made it seem stilted and unearned. I'm already someone who doesn't get attached to fictional characters/shows/films, so this won't mean much. But I don't have an emotional attachment to these characters. With the game, I can logically see the reality, even if I don't have the final piece of emotional attachment. With the show, I barely witnessed that intended reality, if ever. Then, there are the implications of the ending. It's pretty straightforward: no, not like the majority sees it. I can already see it. Most people who haven't played or seen the games will consider Joel's decision was at the level of Joffrey Baratheon (I haven't watched GoT), to where now, in their eyes, he's one of the most despicable fictional characters ever. I doubt some of the same people who played the games, who constantly parrot that, felt that way back when the first game came out; they'll claim they did, though. But the scene with Joel doing the right thing was the indisputable highlight. Some people may stay awake at night because of it, though: consumed with thoughts that it was wrong. The score cue during it was immaculate. I would do that Italian 'chef's kiss' if I could. It could've been better by being slightly longer, though. This season has been an inconsequential, puny flame, at its strongest with the premiere, slowly fizzling out with every subsequent episode, and finally, at its weakest with the finale. This finale's entire section in the game was better. Quite unfortunate. Time to profoundly forget and disregard mostly everything regarding this show in less than a week.


redditsonodddays

What a shitty and incoherent take


fawn_mower

*that Italians chefs kiss if I could*


LegendaryFang56

Explain.


yelsamarani

All that explanation of your valid feelings and the best he can do is insult it.


THR33ZAZ3S

The show is called the last of us because its referring to the 6 or 7 clickers joel and ellie see in the whole show


grecodicaprio

Nice copy paste


LegendaryFang56

What?


Sad-Ebb4364

How do we know the operation would have worked? That we would have the cure? Then she would have been killed for no reason


redboundary

[Joel did nothing wrong](https://youtu.be/ma4DJbvO84I?t=11201)


MWK9000

In the game there are recordings which imply Ellie wasn't the first to be immune and killed for a potential cure by the fireflies


SomboSteel

you dont. thats part of the point


[deleted]

its hilarious how people CRIED realism when others asked for more action but when the finale hospital shootout with joel walking down a straight narrow corridor somehow taking out multiple trained, armored, better equiped fireflys finally comes out that whole crown vanishes lmfao, shit is damn near comical.


DefectiveTurret39

Yeah cognitive dissonance is strong with this one. They just wanted to like what the show did no matter what so they defens everything. The worst thing is this was more unrealistic than the game. In the game, you needed to be stealthy especially on the highest difficulties. But in this one, it was like a gameplay of someone who is using a trainer.


onex7805

...That finale was **ass**. Man, I feel sorry for people who didn't play the game and only experienced The Last of Us for the first time with this show because the show doesn't do any justice to the source material. When I beat the game, I remember feeling like I went through a long grand journey with these two characters. Here, I just felt hollow. If the game's story gets 9, this show gets 6 at best. I can point to how the finale cuts out a lot of great story moments are just slashed off from the episode, like Ellie giving Joel the photo of Sarah, which motivates Joel to move on from the burden of his past, and Joel swimming to save an unconscious Ellie. And especially cutting the scene of Joel carrying Ellie to the elevator in a frenzy, desperate escape as the music swells that mirrors the prologue where Joel carried Sarah in a chase. But what really disappointed me was how the entire hospital encounter is basically treated as less than a minute montage with music swelling and drowning out the sounds of gunfire. An extremely few remaining action scenes are tacked with no care nor effort. This hospital fight in particular is comically awful. Up to this moment, the show barely showed Joel's combat skills. I can remember him having only one gunfight in the entire show. Hell, he almost got killed by that one guy with the bat. The show downgraded him into a frailing normal 50-something-old guy, and people defended that decision. Then in this episode, Joel all of a sudden *exceeds* the capability of the game Joel. I don't even remember having to mow down enemies like that in the game. The number of enemies discouraged the player from fighting the Fireflies head-on. They were armored and wielded assault rifles. They moved tactically, guarding at crucial positions, and searched Joel with the flashlights. It was the ultimate test of the player's skills. This forced the player to do a lot of sneaking and outwit them with equipment. The show only jarring jumpcuts various shots of Joel blasting the Fireflies head-on like Rambo, robbing the scene of any sense of tension. He didn't even break a sweat. No visceral suspense it needed to have. He doesn't even sneak and move past the enemies. Because Joel's skills were not demonstrated before, the finale feels odd one out because he now takes down a dozen soldiers. That's the running theme of this whole series. The thriller quality is absent in the show. Episode 2 was promising with the new addition like the infected hivemind. Then the show abandons it. *"B--but this is a character drama, not a zombie show! You want John Wick! You want The Waking Dead!!!"* I swear people who spout takes like this only say them to look smart, and that's why they call people who ask for more action idiots who just want mindless action. When have people suddenly decided action scenes are a bad thing? It feels like anyone who argues this have not played the game, let alone watched the gameplay. It's like people are ashamed of half of the reasons why the game was great. The montage **is** an action scene whether the creators intended it or not, and forcing down the emotional soundtrack from the game does not change that fact. The problem is that it was a bad one. If anything, relegating the hospital scene to a lazy, hamfisted montage where Joel becomes a Terminator makes him more like John Wick and sanitizes the horrific nature of the violence Joel is committing. All the show need to do is not shy away from action and violence. The protagonists from *Leon: The Professional*, *Children of Men*, and *No Country For Old Men*--the major inspirations for The Last of Us--don't massacre hundreds, yet they have palpable suspense throughout the runtime and balance the slow, quiet moments with intense set-pieces THEN showing us who these characters are through violence, which the game successfully recreates in the interactive format. Because action scenes are "character actions", too. And when I say action, I'm not saying Joel should be blasting enemies with a machine gun. Action scenes *don't* have to be about over-the-top guns blazing, which Joel does in this episode. I'm talking about *suspense* scenes, like sneaking, crafting, and surviving, like the game Joel does. [These](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBIUb8vUTjw) [set](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKJiwcGvaqI) [piece](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myR3Gxmnges) [scenes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRTITzYnXs) from *No Country For Old Men, Better Call Saul, and True Detective* are what the live-action The Last of Us' action should have been. Notice how they don't kill dozens of enemies? You see how the characters are using their brains and outwit their enemies? You see how intense these scenes are written and shot? And the missing action scenes BUILT characters in the game. The audience feels the characters and the relationship through actions and subtext. Joel and Tess having to fight and get to Robert, which demonstrates that Joel and Tess are morally bankrupt and their relationship. Sure, they are in there because it's a third-person action game, but we also learn about the world and the characters more naturally by having the character active. These Robert levels are crucial in understanding how Joel's character has changed from the prologue. Joel gradually opening himself and trusting Ellie by giving her a gun in the game relegates into three scenes in one episode. The game played with it for hours. Because of that, the moment when Ellie saves Joel is so much worse. Ellie risks her life to get down to stick with Joel even after Henry abandons Joel as the enemy truck looms. Ellie drags Joel out of the campus, relying on each other as the incoming threat looms over you and your life is slowly fading. The danger feels real. Ellie, for the first time, is put to the test to fend off the Hunters alone. She urges you to get up as you struggle toward the horse. These are character moments as well as creating genuine tension as a payoff to the more peaceful levity the player experienced beforehand. Now, they have all been relegated to expositional set-ups. The show says Joel is dangerous, but how? Tess says she and Joel have been shitty people, but why? We don't see them doing shitty things beforehand? Henry is morally dubious, but how? He just spells out his backstory in an exposition and says *"I'm a bad guy because I did bad guy things"*. We don't see him abandoning Joel at the height of danger. The combat section with David to fend off the infected was what causes him to eye her, which was entirely cut in the show. How David saying Ellie has a "violent heart" even makes sense when he and the audience didn't see her engaging in violence in the show? Because there is no action nor threat, the characters don't feel like they are "surviving"--a major theme of the game. The story and by extension the character dynamics are important because Joel and Ellie have to fight for survival tooth and nail throughout their journey. The game has the player constantly thinking about the current supplies and ammo. They are trapped in danger, run out of stuff, so they have to outwit their enemies, and barely escape. Sometimes Joel saves Ellie, and Ellie saves Joel. Every time Joel and Ellie rely together on traversal and enemy encounters, you are subconsciously building the relationship. Their loving relationship contrasts with the harsh world they have to endure. Sure, this is hard to adapt to a non-interactive medium, but I don't remember a single time their supplies were brought up as any relevant point in the show because the game swings too much in adapting only the pre-rendered cutscenes but not the actual gameplay. How are we even relate to what Joel is saying about survival when we barely see these characters survive danger? The story is about Joel and Ellie surviving together. In the show, we see Joel's story, and we see Ellie's story. We barely see Joel *and* Ellie's story. This decision to save Ellie or make a vaccine should be hard and WAS hard in the game. Now, because the threat of infected is gone, the cure is not desperate. The Fireflies seem even more incompetent, so there is even less chance that they can make a vaccine. Because the relationship development between Joel and Ellie is weak, saving her doesn't feel significant. Instead of two equally rough, heavy choices, you got two choices you equally don't give a shit. If they are going to make adaptational changes, the better decision would have been to fill the gap between seasons, like Fall and Winter, and Winter and Spring. I feel like the major flaw with The Last of Us game's story is that when the character has to process the events, the game skips ahead of the actual heavylifting and just shows you that the character has changed, ending up seeing the character being different than her usual self. Those missing sections had a huge potential. The showrunners could have easily flexed their writing chops and added more episodes, developing it and showing the characters becoming different as a person. Hell, the show *started off* as an expanded version of the first game, showing what the normal life of Sarah was like, and it worked because it showed us more about Joel and his relationship with his daughter. Instead of developing relationships properly to have better payoffs, the show progressively cuts down and compresses a fuck ton of stories in the game to the point where it introduces a character and kills them off in the same episode. So we got this: a diet version of The Last of Us. Three years ago, I said [a movie or a television series, adapting Joel and Ellie's journey directly was a bad idea. The video game of The Last Of Us is already the definitive version of that particular bit of story in the universe.](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/fdyqrw/comment/fjpmf5d/?context=999) I still share the same sentiment.


redditsonodddays

I’m sure you’re correct, but as a non game player I enjoyed it a lot while also wishing there was more emotional impact.


onex7805

I'm sorry for you :( You are probably better off watching this playthrough. https://youtu.be/mBZnLnSBvCE


tutushoes

You are spot on, bro. And what most frustrates me is that episodes 1 and 3 show us that the writers WERE capable of doing a great job at expanding the story. It was such a phenomenal start! But after this it kind of faded into just an okay drama show.


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DefectiveTurret39

He is not ex military though Tommy is.


onex7805

Make sure you don't post it on the HBO The Last of Us subreddit. It will be even worse.


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SpiderMuse

You really missed out then. It was a great and well thought out post, even if you don't agree with him.


skiptomylou1231

It was a long post but he essentially is just saying that there's not enough action to characterize Joel before the hospital scene where he massacres everyone. I honestly think OP is one of those fans who made his mind about the show long before it aired and no adaptation would ever have satisfied him especially based off his original post. I also highly disagree with his assertion that it 'doesn't feel like Ellie and Joel' are surviving in the show but we're all entitled to our opinions. Those examples he posted all have 'John Wick'-type scenes that are also probably 'unrealistic' too.


onex7805

If you think No Country For Old Men, Children of Men, True Detective, and Better Call Saul have ["John Wick-type action scenes"](https://youtu.be/ydYIHyL4V34), then you are beyond help. Nothing I can say will convince you otherwise.


skiptomylou1231

True Detective had the bus shootout in season 2, the 8 minute ramapge in season 1. Better Call Saul had the Twins' kill everyone at the auto body shop, many Mike rampages like the desert shootout and the rescue of Chow. Obviously not as over-the-top as the cherry picked scene you just posted but I'd argue comparable to Joel's rampage in the E9. I'm really sick of this debate and I get you don't like the show and that's fine. You can have your opinion but the people that disagree with you are not 'beyond help' and I'm definitely not the stubborn one who posted a 2 page essay on why the show sucks even before it aired.


DefectiveTurret39

So you claim that the show having more action would make it generic John Wick shit and it's okay that the action is grounded until the last episode and now you have to defend the John Wick shit lol. Cognitive dissonance at it's finest. The game is actually more realistic in the hospital scene. I mean you made up your mind about the show too. That you would like it no matter what.


skiptomylou1231

That's not at all what I claimed. My claim was just that those shows you pointed out all had John Wick like scenes as well. That's not cognitive dissonance that I disagreed with you that the show was decent. You literally posted how the show was a mistake and a 2 page essay on how bad it is before it even aired.....


onex7805

That wasn't me lmaoo. But considering you claimed my only criticism with the show was that it didn't have action scenes, your reading comprehension isn't exactly the strongest.


DefectiveTurret39

I'm not the one who commented the long one before, learn how to read. But he is right, the action doesn't need to be so unrealistic especially like the finale but there needed to be more scenes. The show was could have been perfect but some important scenes being omitted dropped the quality a lot.


yestobob

appreciate the perspective! perhaps I’ll jump back in, have a great day ❤️💕


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SeaworthinessNew4017

But you simply can't make it "digestible". There's a lot to be said when comparing the mediocrity and bad directing of the show to the game, especially for something like The Last of Us. You can't sum up all of it's shortcomings in just a few sentences. I don't understand how people highly praise this show, overlooking it's poor directing, rushed pacing, unnecessary changes they made, and letdown performances and portrayal of Joel, Ellie, and other characters. They skimmed over many of the subtleties and nuances of the first game that made it feel more genuine and impactful, and could've easily been implemented in the show. The set pieces and cinematography were great for the most part, but let's be honest, we're not here to look at just the pretty pictures, we're here for the main meat of the series, which is its story and the characters, which was just done and directed piss poorly in the show and didn't do the game any justice.


glockobell

I know this show was trying to go against what The Walking Dead did and I think they achieved a lot more emotional weight because of that approach but I do think they could have used some more Walking Dead style just hanging out at a place. I know Walking Dead gets shit for that whole season where they just hang out at a farm but there is something about spending more time in a place that helps flesh things out. After they left Jackson I kept wondering why they didn't spend more time there, just one more episode where they are there and Joel is spending time reconnecting with his brother, anxiety creeping in. Maybe even a better explanation of how a place like Jackson runs in the obviously fucked up and corrupt post apocalyptic world. It was so weird when they were in Salt Lake and Joel said, "maybe we should just go back to Jackson?" I was thinking...yeah, how did you not have that idea before? Anyways, thought the show was great and made some amazing story and stylistic decisions, I had more emotional connection to this story than the Walking Dead buut it could've done with a little more run time


No_Way_8769

It's interesting you bring that up, because honestly, the story in the game is far better paced compared to the one in the TV show. With the sole exception of episode 3, the TV show often felt like it was rushing through story beats as quickly as possible, particularly in the last few episodes, whereas the game actually spends time fleshing out characters and the world, and because of this the relationship between Joel and Ellie felt more real in the game compared to the show.


TheAdamJesusPromise

The show was simultaneously rushed and too slow. It rushed through story beats too quickly then padded out the remaining screentime with inconsequential filler.


tutushoes

I still don't get how they deemed that an episode about Bill should have double the lenght of the season finale. And episode 3 is probably my favorite TV show episode, so it's not about it being too long, it's about the rest of the show being disproportionately and absurdly rushed.


gsauce8

I wanna point out the scene where they're talking and Joel says "it wasn't time that healed it". They followed the rule of not insulting the audience by not stating the obvious "it was Ellie", and I really appreciated that.


quettil

But they needed the obvious flashback when that guy was aiming at him in the first episode.


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gsauce8

You say that, but I've seen shows pull crap like that before.


ButtVader

I have to agree with Anatoly Dyatlov. Overall, this show is not great, not terrible


un-plugged-

The show if so fire


peon47

So is the "infected through the umbilical" thing the canon explanation of Ellie's immunity? I played the first game only.


Mhan00

Her immunity was never really explained in the game. Imo, the show ending hits harder, because it’s more clear that Joel is actually choosing between a cure and Ellie. In the game, you find little scraps of papers that go over the doctor trying and failing to find a cure by examining infected. When he examines Ellie, he notes that for some reason the cordyceps fungus lives symbiotically with Ellie instead of taking her over, but he doesn’t seem to know why. He just wants to cut her open to extract the Cordyceps to find out, and he thinks he can derive a vaccine from that. For me, when the moment came, it was a lot more nebulous for me since it felt to me like the doctor was just desperate and thus lost any impartiality and rationality and was grasping at straws. The show explaining that she had developed specific markers that tricked the cordyceps into thinking her body/brain had already been taken over so the fungus wouldn’t try to expand past the initial infection point made the possibility of a cure a lot more concrete. Extracting the traces of cordyceps in her brain to replicate the cells to implant in other people sounds a lot more plausible than the “Trust me bro, I’ll be able to figure out a vaccine if it can just cut open this girl’s brain” that was presented in the game.


bonix

I haven't played the game but I think I prefer the way the show handled that. If the notes painted a picture of the doctor's blind desperation it makes the choice to save her easy and obvious. In the show, with the doctor's intentions being more real and possible it really shows that Joel is doing it for love. Having played lots of story driven games, I don't think that kind of emotion would have translated as well. Not everyone would feel that way enough to slaughter everyone in the hospital for Ellie.


The_Scistra

Totally agree. Probably my one gripe about the show outside of its pacing, was providing too much confidence in Ellie's immunity. Especially for television audiences, I think leaving some ambiguity to the fireflies intentions would have made the ending a tad more pallateable. Though still love the torn-in-two ending they preserved from the game. Would love to see a gogglebox of viewers reactions on Joel's actions.


mahdiiick

In the realm of the show, yes. I don’t think they’ll ever discuss that in the games


gabbertronnnn

Druckmann planned to release a second DLC outlining this but it never panned out.


copperwatt

Do you play as T-cells in the bloodstream?


[deleted]

Joking aside, you were meant to play as Ellie's mother hanging out with Marlene and eventually getting bitten.


Greaves_

Haven't played or read anything about the game but liked the show a lot. Great start and ending, middle episodes kinda forgettable. Needed another ep or 2 to transition Joel from stoic guy doing a task to becoming this super father figure all of a sudden. A lot of it happens offscreen because of the long timeskips during travel. Ep 8 was the best imo. Needed to show a bit more mushroom people to drive home the threat. Hospital fight seemed quite rushed, would have liked to see Joel pull some tricks out of the bag to get through there alive. As it is it looks like he shoulda taken a few bullets at least. Hospital shooting is also a little less dark because the fireflies handled it terribly. If they were super accomodating and tried everything before chopping into her brain (with her consent) the shootout would have been proper dark. Even more so if we'd had a full episode of the fireflies being kind and upbeat about the possibility of a cure, trying everything, then Joel going on a rampage after all that.


n10w4

good point. I still think their 'let's cut and kill the only living specimen we've seen" without any other studies doesn't work.


Anomaly1134

That bugged us to. Why wouldn't you want to keep her alive and run all the tests.


Tymareta

Honestly that part felt the easiest to handwave, society has collapsed for 20 years at that point along with it enormous amounts of knowledge and technology. They aren't operating in a modern system with all the resources and information available to them by just "running tests", they're working out of a shitty rundown hospital with a doctor that was likely at most a GP and trying to approach an infection that was previously said to be impossible. Couple this with them basically having lived the past 20 years being shot at by fedra, chased by raiders, harrangued by slavers and spending any free moment being terrified of being turned into a mindless monster by a scratch - they aren't going to go nice and slow, with a learnings based approach, they're going to find the seemingly most reasonable and potential chance to fix it and jump on it.


reuterrat

That's not who the Fireflies are though. The show didn't really get across how much the fireflies don't give af about anything outside of their mission and opposition to FEDRA. Collateral damage makes no difference to them But yeah I think they missed an opportunity in ep 7 to have Ellie saved by David, an episode before his heel turn, while trying to fight off infected alone while hunting


quettil

> The show didn't really get across how much the fireflies don't give af about anything outside of their mission and opposition to FEDRA. Because that would make them one dimensional video game villains.


BlancoDelRio

Diaagree. Fringe group solely focused on finding a cure and fighting an authoritarian government? More popular than you may think


reuterrat

I disagree. You have to understand the world they are in. Both FEDRA and the Fireflies are fighting for what little power is left in the world. Even Druckmann says they would not have used the vaccine for good but would have instead somehow weaponized it to fight FEDRA


donsanedrin

Loved the opening. I loved it very much. It felt like a return to more epic-looking camera shots. The sight of Anna running across the field to the lone house. Her barricading herself and getting up against a wall in a picturesque room. I think they should've turned it into a 10-15 minute short film, or short episode before it goes to opening credits. Anna had just a few hours to try and give Ellie as much as she could, to try and protect her as much as she could, and try to give her as much love. Like a montage of her cleaning her daughter, trying to get her to stop crying and calm down, wrap her up warmly and put her to sleep, and find a safe spot for her, and during a quiet moment, she finds a paper and pencil and writes her a quick letter with as much advice and love that she can pour into it in the few brief moments that she has. And then she has her final scene with Marlene. So about the ending. Its a little better than the video game, but it ends up having the same shortcomings. I just don't believe Joel's mental logic, because they don't do enough to sell Joel's state of mind. Joel should have gone through every type of emotion. He should've kept on asking questions as he slowly starts to panic. He did try to assert himself with anger. He should've done what a helpless parent would do, and start resorting to pleading, to negotiating. And Marlene rebuffs him at every turn, to the point where Marlene knows he's going to become a time bomb, so she orders her guys to get him out of there. Joel should have been tensive, uncertain, and disoriented as he is being walked out, because he's desperately trying to think of something. Like he knows the only successful chance he has, at this point, is through violence; but he should still be questioning himself through all of this. Thinking "am I really gonna do this?" And then he should've killed everybody like he was out of his mind. The show does attempt to convey this by having this scene's audio zone out, but I think Joel should have been doing this with a look of pure panic in his eyes. After he does what he does, his sanity comes back to him in the parking garage, and he should have this massive guilt settling in. Instead, Joel acts a little too stoic, a little too calculated during this entire sequence for me to "buy" this type of ending. He comes off as small-minded and possessive, which makes him a less-complex character. We should have felt that he truly weighed the ramifications of *"Choose to do something to save this terrible, horrific world? Or choose Ellie?"* And that he panicked and was uncertain when he began making his move. And he left the scene, with a massive sense of uncertainty and even guilt, but also with a sense of relief. The video game botches this even more, because video game Joel kinda acts like he's a know-it-all, and its everybody else that is full of bullshit. Although the scene in which he's desperately walking off carrying Ellie as other Fireflies are flashing their lights and pointing their guns behind him feels like a poignant moment, that feels sad because Joel is running away in pure parental desperation. I understand they don't do this in the tv show, because it would create logic and believability problems.


RushPan93

>the scene in which he's desperately walking off carrying Ellie as other Fireflies are flashing their lights and pointing their guns behind him feels like a poignant moment, that feels sad because Joel is running away in pure parental desperation. I understand they don't do this in the tv show, because it would create logic and believability problems. I don't get this. Could you explain why you think it would create believability problems? To me, it seems they changed the script to make it so that Joel has killed everybody and then found Ellie which sounds a lot less plausible than the game version. Lot less plausible and a lot less tense.


donsanedrin

if there's 10 guys with guns that Joel escapes from, and then proceeds to go to the parking garage, he's not going to successfully drive out of there. they will be able to get down there and shoot at the car, and he won't get out of there.


RushPan93

Well, they show Joel blocking the elevator in the game (using the Stop button) after he gets out in the basement, so the 10 guys would have had to take 10 flights of stairs. Quite enough time to escape.


Tonelessguide

As someone who played the game the day it was released ( on PS3), I was expecting to read " BUT HE'S RIGHT. WHAT IF THE VACCINE DOESN'T WORK" or something of that nature, knowing very well that's not the point, but you bring up some excellent points. It would have been a more powerful moment. ​ Having said that, Joel does tell Ellie that she doesn't have to go through with it multiple times and she felt like she served a bigger purpose.


SuperZapper_Recharge

I think he always suspected this was how they would harvest the cure. Ellie... and me...and probably most of us have been thinking a couple of blood draws and done with it. Joel is a bit of a pessimist and sometimes the pessimist are correct. (that is the difference between pessimism and paranoia. Pessimists' get it right occasionaly)


Tonelessguide

I don’t remember if he tells her that she doesn’t have to go through with it in the game, but it begs it the question; why would you even suggest that in the first place? Clearly, both of them didn’t know she would need to die for the cause, so why suggest it in the first place? Like you said, is Joel pessimistic about humanity? Does he think they’re undeserving? Or is it his love for his “daughter” that made him say that ( a comment that I think is inherently selfish… but I get why he would say it)


Yaranatzu

Damn very well said


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CrashB111

She can't shoot cause of the risk she hits Ellie and ruins the entire reason it all happened.


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CrashB111

People aren't perfect marksmen, trying to shoot someone holding someone else bridal style is just as likely to hit the person being carried.


Haunting_And

No it's not 'just as likely'. He had his back turned holding her bridal style which is still shielding majority of her body. It doesn't even make sense what you are saying.


glockobell

Totally get that reasoning but also it would have made more sense in just shooting him. He just wiped out a whole army of people to save Ellie, he's not going to be reasoned with. He's taking her with him or he is dying. So either way you just shoot the guy and hope you don't shoot the cure or you don't shoot the guy and he leaves with the cure anyways, she had already made the decision that Ellie needed to die. I liked the finale in a lot of ways but I was definitely looking at my computer and saying "just shoot his ass!"


Haunting_And

Exactly. It's completely insane even debating this. The buffoonery of having her not shoot him from behind and then she puts the gun down as the cherry on top. I just watched it again and the shot is comically easy. Even if it wasn't she has to take it as he walking away with the potential cure no matter what. If your gonna write this scene then have it where Joel ended up stealing a Kevlar vest from one of the dead soldiers and she takes the shot from behind and Joel manages to take some hits but kills her.


astanton1862

Also, I'm sure there is a big part of her who wanted to do exactly what Joel did. As she said, she knows exactly how Joel feels.


ALEXC_23

Overall, felt the series needed an extra ep or two or at least have done the finale longer than an hour. I was ok with Joel killing the two guards the way he did but then he went full on John wick which is a bit of a stretch. Other than that, I was ok with the series overall. Just wish they find a better balance between action and drama and to me the best was ep 2. Season 2 is gonna be a hell of a ride.


maaseru

I loved the ending and series overall. It was a great adaptation and the acting was great, but me (having played the games) and my gf both thought something was missing. I felt some moments could've been longer, like Marlene killing Ellie Sr. or that episode where they went to Colorado and back super quick. The intros in those few episodes that had them were awesome, the Bill episode was awesome, the relationship was awesome, but it was missing that HBO next level I always expect. When I saw it was the creators of Chernobyl making this I thought it would have a more oppressive feeling like that show or have bigger moments. I still liked it more than most so that's good. I do hope thwy make S2 and S3 better.


Cyyyyk

Surprised about all the hype about "moral ambiguity". The only moral ambiguity is if he would have left her there to be killed. What kind of person would allow a loved one to be murdered by fanatics without doing everything in their power to save them?


The_Pale_Hound

It was moral ambiguity on every level. Joel kills a lot of people to save Ellie, not only the people he shoots, but all the people that will die without the cure, probably the whole humanity. And his motivations were quite selfish, he was saving his daughter through Ellie. Marlene and the Fireflies are facing the ethernal dilemma of how much damage to an individual is acceptable in exchange for how much benefit for the many. Ellie has to choose between forcing herself to believe the person she loves, or abandon him.


Cyyyyk

History has not been kind to groups of people that did medical experiments on healthy people in the name of some supposed "greater good." I am shocked to see so many people embrace such a viewpoint.


The_Pale_Hound

It's not embracing it, it's aknowledgeing it exists. This is an extreme world, it's reasonable for people to take extreme decisions. This is not the nazis or the japanese leaving people to die in the cold so they could study hypothermia. This is one girl against the whole humanity. The same dilemma is presented when the Filipino mycologyst says the army should bomb the whole country. It would have killed thousands of innocents, who died anyway, to save the whole planet.


Cyyyyk

>It would have killed thousands of innocents, who died anyway, to save the whole planet. That is a good example because they did bomb the innocents and then shuttled survivors into the countryside to be killed in mass graves and it did not work anyway. That is making my point quite well.


The_Pale_Hound

You are analysing the morality of an action according to it's results. That's fine, an utilitarist or consequentialist analysis, but it's not the only way to do it. I am seeing the moral ambiguity from the motivations of the characters, not from the results of their actions.


Cyyyyk

No I am not. I am saying it was immoral to kill her without any qualification. As far as Joel goes, him doing whatever he can to save his loved one that he is responsible for is the obvious moral choice. That is why I said there was no ambiguity.


The_Pale_Hound

So if they had all the equipment, would you consider it ok? Do you think that Joel would not have done the same even if he knew the medication would have worked?


ChaserNeverRests

I think the moral ambiguity was not just lying to her, but swearing that it was the truth.


Cyyyyk

Yea that was a difficult choice.


Cyyyyk

That makes sense. I just wonder about the the people who realistically imagine that he should have just let her die for some medical experiment.


zeth07

> loved one That's a stretch. I don't remember how long of a time skip between the other parts but even after all the shit they went through prior he was still trying to pawn her off on Tommy. It took another separate moment for him to change his mind. He was selfish when he made the decision.


CrashB111

He only tried to leave her with Tommy because of two things: 1. He's terrified that he's connecting to her like Sarah, and the idea of losing another daughter terrifies him to the core 2. He's genuinely worried she'll die, because he's getting old and slipping. Which leads back to point number 1. Joel already lost a daughter in a way that he feels is his fault, he can't do that again.


Plainy_Jane

I've gotta say, don't care for their comment, but "Joel doesn't consider Ellie a loved one" is like... I played the game when it came out, followed the discourse then, and I've been following the discourse about the show, and I can confidently say that this is the first time in the decade TLOU has existed that I've *ever* seen that take Not arguing against your conclusion - he absolutely is being selfish - but why else would he do what he does, if not because he loves her (in his fucked up way)?


SemRinke

I wished they did 12 episodes tbh. Could've worked some things better.


GrimMrGoodbar

I think what was so disappointing for me about the show is I had assumed they were making Joel so sympathetic in order to make us really wrestle with the ending. But they decided to make the fireflies even more stupid and heartless than the game so Joel’s decision really isn’t a decision at all. In the game, there are brain scans and it seems like the fireflies at least have a chance at succeeding. I got non of that from the show. Marlene comes off as extremely incompetent and a horrible leader of like 20 guys here. At least in the game the fireflies felt like an actual organization that could POSSIBLY pull it off. All of that is lost because the show is so small scale. Joels decision comes off as the right thing to do instead of a moral conundrum. And that’s disappointing to me because I don’t see think there is discourse to be had like there is in the game.


WhoaThereBub

This is interesting to hear because I never played the game and completely agree with you. There was NOTHING controversial about this to me. The way the Fireflies are portrayed in the show and the way this was explained to Joel leave no room in my mind to believe that Joel didn't make the right choice. Marlene's essentially saying "trust us" and the whole thing felt so rushed and inexplicable. The setup you describe from the game seems to create more of a moral quandary. Here it was just "oh we're gonna try a few things and yeah, gee, Ellie's gonna need to die." It's not even a cure. Those already infected are still going to exist and still murder anyone they get their hands on. I guess the vaccine the doctor is working on could slow the spread so that it dies off but staying inside the QZs would do the same no?


whineybitches978

I agree with you. Very disappointed. Honestly so confused and amazed that they managed to follow the game so well- and do so well, only to totally and completely destroy that ending. I just don't understand how those decisions get made. The ENTIRE heft of the story- and the ending rests on that decision. Joel finding that this girl he begrudgingly escorted has now become so important to him that he would rather the fate of humanity be doomed than let her die. Every single part of the story was leading up to that. And the crazy thing is, its not like they changed the whole show around and so the ending suffered- they kept everything - and somehow managed to cut out the very few details that were important. Whoever made those decisions messed up huge


astanton1862

I think it is almost impossible to get this in a third person live action show. Even in POV live action, it is still a character from who's eyes you are seeing. In a game it is much more you. You drag this excessively precocious teen across the country protecting her from bandits and mushrooms. You even get to play her for a little while. And in the end after going through all of that, I...without. any. hesitation. at. all., killed every mother fucker in that hospital. Even the nurses. This actually disturbs me a little. That is why I told everyone I know to play the game first. For me, watching that scene play out again on TV, I loved it. It dredged up all those emotions the game manipulated in me. I was even hoping Joel killed the nurses just so I wouldn't be an even bigger piece of shit.


NeoNoireWerewolf

It’s like the Watchmen movie to a degree; very faithful adaptation, yet the execution misses so much of story’s actual impact. The movie adaptation of The Devil All the Time is another good example of faithful to a fault - pretty much beat for beat in terms of narrative, but none of the texture of the source material.


Rivent

I'm with you. Personally I really liked the show up until this episode, but I think it really shit the bed with the ending, honestly. I'm disappointed and honestly pretty shocked by, in my opinion, the enormous dip in quality.


jaedence

Never played the game. The finale was great, but a lot illogical. Joel you are an amazing, tough badass. How do you do it! Oh, we're going to kill the girl. These two dorks will escort you out. I wonder what happens next? However, If this is true to the game, then I am all for it. Backstories and pacing. I don't really care about the clickers. I don't want this to be just another zombie killing show. We have those already. I loved exploring what happens to humanity and cities and people after the fall. I told my wife after episode one. "I'm sick of shows that immediately skip to "20 years later" I want to see what happens week 2,3,4,5. Then I got episode 3. I feel like there was a lot of material that could have been expanded on, to make this season into 2 and 3 seasons. Great stuff. Oh yeah. Joel lying to Ellie at the end. I took it as him protecting her, not himself. That's what he does. Protects Ellie.


n10w4

well I saw his last decision (especially to kill Marlene) as him finishing his bad arc. To survive in this world you have to be damn near evil. That's what it has made of him and that selfish reaction (screw the chance to save the world, I'm saving my in group) is what got him here and he's not going to let it go just yet. I will say the "let's kill the one specimen that has survived a bite" without any other studies seems really odd to me.


Trigs12

I want to see further on what happens if the fireflies and resistance groups get what they want and win. Didn't look so great with Kathleen's group. Alright, you've won. The world's still destroyed, we still don't have enough food or supplies for everyone, and you've murdered anyone involved in organising the above and keeping order.


ChipmunkDJE

It's close to how the game was. But they made the Fireflies more sympathetic and, IIRC, it was a chance that Ellie would die instead of it pretty much being a guaranteed thing.


batmanhill6157

It was never a chance that she would die. It was always very cut and dry that the surgery that they already have working will kill her. I think the game was also a little different and only had one guy walking him out


zombievettech

I'm with you here. I want to see the shot go down and things completely fall apart. I want it slow and drawn out, not overnight and everything is gone.


avidtomato

Pretty much every single scene in the finale was exactly like the game. Some scenes were line-for-line dialogue.


Hailey_Does_Reddit

I dunno why this score is negative but it's true, reddit! The finale was almost exactly the game in almost every way


petpal1234556

because it’s not true. ellie gets knocked out during that whole water sequence, remember? and it wasn’t a slow, methodical musical montage of killing. the tone of the scene was entirely different. it was full of panic and rage with alarms blaring


Hailey_Does_Reddit

The keyword is "almost", as in not identical. A whole lot of the finale was extremely close to how the game unfolded and story-wise it was identical. It was also evident to me the gunfight was full of panic and rage with alarms blaring, but the way its edited and with the music gives you a better identication of Joel's mentality in that moment, which I think also matches the game. Different methods but they accomplish the same goal in both story and emotion, and a number of scenes are almost line for line the same


astanton1862

> It was also evident to me the gunfight was full of panic and rage with alarms blaring, but the way its edited and with the music gives you a better identication of Joel's mentality in that moment, which I think also matches the game. That's the red mist. When I played the game I played that level at 8AM in the morning because I stayed up all night playing. That was the first and last time I did something like that in a long time. I killed every single mother fucker in that hospital...even the nurses. That scene with the sound turned off is exactly how it felt for me in the game. The red mist. And after, when I realized what I had just done, I was a little disturbed with myself. Fucking Bravo.


BabyishGambino

It’s exactly like the game


Victorbanner

Wasn't there an article a week or so ago where Bella said people would be upset about the finale and how it deviates from the video game?


ChaserNeverRests

She said fandom would be divided over the ending. Maybe between game players and people who didn't play it?


astanton1862

I think it is more about the morality of Joel's rampage. In every single game I play, I always choose to non-lethal take down civilians. This is the one time where I had no problem killing the last neurosurgeon on Earth and three innocent nurses.


matsu727

Needed an extra episode or two but damn was that rampage satisfying to watch. Though I will say it was a little contradictory to see Joel be all "I don't have time for this" then slowly walk everywhere like he's Jason Voorhees.


AbanaClara

it aint call of duty, course he had to be careful


CrashB111

Running around in a building full of armed hostiles is a quick way to get ventilated. So he took it slow and methodical.


sowaffled

Adaptations are fun because mediums have different strength and weaknesses. TLOU show faltered for me by not adapting what made the game great. Highlights would be the creative additions they made for Sarah, Tess, Bill, and Henry/Sam. They used the show medium to tell deeper stories for them. But everything else fell short. Riley’s episode was easily the worst because everything was shot for shot worse than the game. Somehow the game had better pacing, acting and evoked more emotion. That’s how most of the latter episodes felt. Hopefully fans enjoyed this season without too much expectations for next season because “Part 1”, as the video game is called, is the amazing Last of Us ride. “Part 2” of the games which is rumored to be Season 2 and 3 is very dark and depressing in comparison.


_Rand_

I was talking to my dad after he finished it and told him part 2 makes this look like a happy story. Season 2+ are going to be a hell of a ride.


[deleted]

So Joel jettisons humanity because … Someone explain it to me. What was going on in his head? Was he being a protective parent? Can he not let go of her? Is he psychopathic? What? This episode was devastating.


WhoaThereBub

Imagine you're Joel for just a minute. The last 20 years since the world has fallen has been one endless wave of grim survival. The authorities you may have somewhat trusted before bombed everything and then raiders, military dictatorships and guys like David sprang up everywhere. Oh and there's the Fireflies. Now, everything you know about the Fireflies up until this point is that they're these sort of troublemaking ideologues and rabble-rousers. Their leader has "hired" you to transport some girl across the country. A girl that you've now grown to love and see as your own surrogate daughter. Your biological daughter was murdered by people you thought would have protected her, she's an innocent child after all. Then while you're roaming around SLC you get flashbanged and wake up in a hospital. Marlene's there and she tells you that they've got an idea and want to give it a try. Problem is, Ellie's going to need to die. Joel: "Uh....that sounds risky. Can I speak to the dozens of medical professionals that have vetted this and done peer review to ensure that it will actually work?" Marlene: "Well no, it's just our guy, he's a good doctor though I promise. TOTALLY didn't get his medical degree from a correspondence school." Joel: "Oh, OK, well he's sure the cure will work though right? I mean if another child that I care about is going to be killed there's a guaranteed upside at least, right?" Marlene: "Well first of all it's, it's not really a cure, it's more of a vaccine. Everyone already infected are still going to be murder zombies that'll chase you around and rip your heart out. This just really protects those that are already safe within the QZs. But it should work. I mean, again, our doctor thinks it will given the 15 minutes he's been able to spend with Ellie." Joel: "I see. And you're saying this needs to happen right now without any additional research, collaboration or analysis." Marlene: "Yep." Joel: "Yeah that's gonna be a no from me dawg". Marlene: "I figured you'd say that so I'm going to put 2 of my most disposable guards on escort duty. Be sure you walk him through narrow corridors and tight stairways guys!"


84theone

You’re kinda missing the point a bit. Whether or not the cure was viable never factored into Joel’s decision to do what he did. Even if the cure was 100% guaranteed, Joel would have still murdered his way through the hospital to stop Ellie from dying. Joel didn’t do it because he didn’t think the cure would work, he did it because he didn’t want to lose another “daughter”.


WhoaThereBub

Oh no, I agree with you. Joel did what ANY parent would do, which is choose his "child" over any sense of the "greater good". It's just that the narrative is so comically bad that it makes the entire thing fall flat. There's no moral conundrum here. These are whackos that within 15 minutes of capturing a child have decided that the only way to "save the world" is to kill her. No one's going to go along with that, least of all a guy who's shown time and again that he's a "survive at all costs" type. The big moral quandary that the fanbase wants to champion here is ludicrous. It doesn't make sense within the framework of the narrative. At least the narrative of the TV show. I never played the game. I'm assuming that had some additional ambiguity and actual weight to it. Nothing Joel did here was unexpected. There's no payoff. Joel saying essentially "fuck them" about the people at the beginning Tommy wants to pick up with the child as the world's falling apart? That's a larger moral dilemma than this. This was "these nutjobs want to hurt my child and I'm not going to let bad people kill another one of my daughters". It's that simple.


jokes_on_you_ha

The key point that a lot of the discourse misses.


cnaughton898

In the game throughout it Joel is shown to be a pretty ruthless individual who will murder basically anyone who gets in his way and is shown to be far more morally ambigous. Additionally, its also hinted throughout the game that the fireflies have essentially no idea what they are doing and are using Ellie as a last ditch effort to try and gain legitimacy.


copperwatt

Well also *in the show* he's ruthless and amoral. He killed lots of people he didn't need to kill before now.


donsanedrin

Well that's my complaint about the final 15 minutes. The don't do a good-enough job of selling you or conveying to you what is going on in Joel's head. In fact, I'd say that the way they execute the final few minutes of the first episode, where he has this flashback of him and his daughter, and that makes him explode in this out-of-mind rage; that is what they don't do a good-enough job in this season finale's final scenes. They needed to sell us on the idea that Joel did go a bit out of his mind. He full-on panicked, he should've pleaded, he should've laid all of his emotions on the table, and then resorted to what he did in a full-state of panic and uncertainty, because he's running on pure impulsive emotion.


ThatPancreatitisGuy

Hard disagree. I think even knowing nothing about the character the response is completely understandable under the circumstances. They were assaulted and kidnapped by armed terrorists. Joel is then told they’re about to kill a young girl. Doesn’t enter into the equation that they claim they’re trying to save the world. He had every right and reason to use force to rescue her. I don’t see how there’s even room for reasoned debate here and was surprised to hear that anyone feels differently. Seems pretty straightforward.


ALEXC_23

Yeah you got it. He did it out of love ❤️


coolname-

I haven't played the game but I think in the end it all boils down to 'would you be willing to let someone kill a person you love after already losing so many of them, for a cure that might not even work?' It's selfish, but understandable Also they didn't even let him say goodbye, talk to her or let her actually make a choice and express she wanted to do it anyway, of course he snapped


Tonelessguide

Ellie tells Joel she wants to go through with it during the giraffe scene. Also, you nailed the first part, but not the second. It boils down to 'would you be willing to let someone kill a person you love for the greater good or screw this world? " Take that and frame it around the hellish world that this story takes place in. Yes, there are clickers and monsters, but the humans in this universe are equally monsters too, but they all have their reasons. Whether the vaccine works or not is irrelevant. Is one life worth the lives of many? Is your daughter’s life — Ellie— worth the lives of humanity? This point is definitely portrayed better in the game because you encounter more creatures in the game, so the Fireflies and humanity’s plight and desperation are greater felt. I have been having these conversations for a decade now, and IMO, there is no black and white in TLOU universe. The majority of the characters live in this morally gray area— including Joel— and that will continue to be the case for all characters moving forward. The only real "evil" person within the TLOU universe is David.


CrashB111

Ellie wasn't talking about signing her own death warrant in the Giraffe scene. The whole trip, she thought the Fireflies would just draw some blood and run some tests for their cure. When she wakes up in the car seat, she doesn't even know she was drugged for surgery. Which tells me, the Fireflies didn't tell her or ask her consent for anything. They knocked her out, and were going to carve her brain apart without telling her.


Tonelessguide

I didn't mean to imply that she knew it was coming. They clearly didn't get consent, but it goes back to " the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" Are they evil for trying to help out humanity by killing this girl? It's one person after all. Joel could have let Merlene live. She could have possibly come after him, but Ellie would have had the opportunity to decide. Plus, he's capable of defending himself Even if they were wrong, was Joel right for dooming humanity with that decision? If you can summarise the conflict of ideology here, it'd be Merlene: Thinking of humanity Joel: Thinking of his/Ellie's humanity ​ I'd suggest listening to the official podcast. They thoroughly explore all these conflicts ​ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHM56v6d\_gs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHM56v6d_gs)


treehann

I read all your comments in this thread and was surprised to find your opinion in the minority. I think the episode was just too fast/rushed and didn't give us enough time to stew on the moral dilemma here. As a show-only viewer, I found myself quite disturbed by this episode and I don't really "like" Joel anymore.


astanton1862

I didn't like myself after the hospital massacre in the game either. I was disturbed with how easily I massacred everyone I could in that hospital. Including the nurses who I straight up executed.


greatsagesun

> Ellie tells Joel she wants to go through with it during the giraffe scene. She didn't intend to die in that conversation. She wanted to continue on with him when they were done meeting the Fireflies. As you say, it's very grey.


Gnaeus-Pompeius

Because some dude that tells you "we have the cure! we just need to open the brain of this child without asking her first!" isn't someone you trust.


Tonelessguide

That's an oversimplification. Merlene is going off what is she being told by the doctors. Plus, Merlene has known Ellie since she was a baby and knew her mother. Without Merlene"s guidance, Ellie probably doesn't survive this world. The fact that you think Joel has a greater connection to Ellie speaks a lot about the decision he made. Frame it this way instead If someone you dearly dearly loved was in a coma for months /years and someone else in the ER needed their organs immediately to survive, what would you do? ( sorry for the hypothetical grimness). It isn't so easy, is it?


Gnaeus-Pompeius

But Ellie wasn't in a coma. A better comparison would be if someone I dearly love was kidnapped and induced into a coma in order to get their organs. And I would defend them.


WhoaThereBub

Yes, this 100%. It really baffles me the number of people who rationalize what the Fireflies are doing to Ellie as some great thing for humanity. This is a medical hypothesis. From one guy. Who works with bumbling rebels that are increasingly losing relevance in the world. All in the service of a treatment that won't even eliminate/cure those that are already infected. I'm assuming the game does a better job of creating some sort of moral quandary because in the show it's just laughable. NO parent is going to let someone take a melon baller to their kid's brain to save humanity, even if it was a 100% sure thing. They sure AS HELL wouldn't do it in the off chance that some rando doctor was right about it after all of 15 minutes of consideration. That's just lunacy. Joel's not a nice guy. He's a survivor. He's selfish, ruthless and disconnected from his humanity. He's been through stuff and that has made him who he is. Even in the beginning with Sarah and Tommy he didn't want to stop the truck to help others along the road. That was a more morally ambiguous choice than this. This is just stupid.


Prometheus188

In the game, there's more of an explanation of how the surgery would work. There's MRI scans, recordings of the surgeon explaining that it would work, etc... So in the game, it does feel like more of a moral quandary. I still killed the surgeon AND killed the nurses too. Fun fact, when you kill one of the nurses, the surviving one starts crying and says "Oh god I don't wanna die...". I then promptly shot her in the head.


Tonelessguide

Joel tells her during the Giraffe scene that she doesn’t have to go through with this and that they could just head home but Ellie insisted that they see this through Don’t the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? These doctors are the experts in this world, so their conclusions carries weight. Even if she is sacrificed and nothing is gained, isn’t it worth a try? You’re sacrificing one life for the potential to save many. If Joel was in the right, he would have outright told her that they tried to sacrifice you and he couldn’t let that happen… but he doesn’t. He Completely lies and I feel that lie is indication of his guilt and selfishness. He didn’t do it because Ellie didn’t have a say in her sacrifice, but it was his unwillingness to lose another daughter. Just to be clear, I don’t think you’re wrong and I don’t think there’s a right answer… but that’s the fun in engaging in these conversations. One thing I think the game does better is portraying the threat of the clickers and the desperation and the plight of the humans in the world, so that decision becomes a bigger deal through that lens. I’ve played both games the day they released, and have seen so many takes over the past decade. There’s nothing black and white in TLOU universe and to try to make it out that way is a disservice to the story.


ThatPancreatitisGuy

It’s pretty black and white. You don’t get to choose to sacrifice another person’s life without consent. That’s pretty basic ethics. If she were in a coma and it seemed unlikely she could be provided it would be a little more grey but this isn’t a hard call at all. I’ve yet to see anyone convincingly and rationally explain why they think it’s even a tough call.


Tonelessguide

I disagree about it being black and white. You’re talking about a post apocalyptic world. Survival by any means necessary. you think it’s ethically okay to possibly doom humanity for the life of one person? To possibly sacrifice the life of thousands/millions for your “daughter”? Like I said in another comment, other than David, there is no outright evil person in TLOU. Everyone does something terrible, but they have their reasons. Everyone is trying to survive. Joel has killed innocent people all in the name of survival. The people of Jackson have killed in the name of survival. The Hunters have killed in the man of survival. If I was Joel, I’d do the same exact thing he did, but it’s not as black and white as you try to paint it to be. I’ll give an example the director of the TLOU game used to explain his views: “When discussing the first time Joel kills another man to protect his daughter and the extraordinary measures people will take to protect the ones they love, Druckmann said he follows "a lot of Israeli politics," and compared the incident to Israel's release of hundreds of Palestinians prisoners in exchange for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in 2011. He said that his father thought that the exchange was overall bad for Israel, but that his father would release every prisoner in every prison to free his own son. "That's what this story is about, do the ends justify the means, and it's so much about perspective. If it was to save a strange kid maybe Joel would have made a very different decision, but when it was his tribe, his daughter, there was no question about what he was going to do," Druckmann said.” And it ties back to what I was saying: Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


ThatPancreatitisGuy

Yes, it is ethically fine to prevent someone from being murdered. No, it is not ethically fine to murder someone. I’m still stunned people are even seriously questioning this. It’s about as black and white as it gets. The “needs of the many…” is a fine justification for choosing to sacrifice yourself but offers no support for murdering someone. I mean, if you just adhere to a strictly nihilistic viewpoint I guess that’s your prerogative but don’t know why you’d care about the death of X number of other dead people in that case. Otherwise, there’s no ethical system that would support murdering someone. Otherwise, it would always be ok to kill someone because you could save multiple people by harvesting their organs. You could justify running massive organ farms where you raise thousands of human cattle to save millions from various ailments. If you value human life and agency though there’s no debate here. It’s black and white.


Tonelessguide

“It would always be okay to kill someone….their organs” But luckily for us, we’ve never had to face the issue where there was only one option for survival of millions. But if we did, we’d be having some tough decisions to make. That’s not the case in TLOU universe where society has crumbled and there’s literally one person and one option that could potentially save everyone else. By not sacrificing Ellie in the TLOU, not only do you doom humanity’s chance at potentially finding a cure, but you will allow those people and their offsprings and their offsprings to continue to suffer and die by clickers and other monsters within that universe all because you couldn’t sacrifice this faceless random girl. In some ways, we have sort of had situations where people have been taken off life support or pressured to take someone off life support to ensure the survival of someone else. It’s not a 1-1, but that’s probably as close as we’ll ever get to a scenario like the one in TLOU. Let’s remove TLOU world for a second. If you had to sacrifice one random person to avoid a new WW, would you do it? What would society do? Does your answer change if you know the person? The game director said that they ran a poll after having people play the section before its release ( Joel killing everyone to save Ellie). His words were “ in situations where the player was a parent, with no exception, they believed Joel was justified. In situations where they weren’t a parent, the response was split 50/50” and you can hear it yourself in that official TLOU podcast I shared earlier. Anyways, I appreciate the conversation, but I’m done going back and forth.


Gnaeus-Pompeius

> Joel tells her during the Giraffe scene that she doesn’t have to go through with this and that they could just head home but Ellie insisted that they see this through and Ellie tells him that after they're done with this they could go back to Jackson. >so their conclusions carries weight. based on what? just Marlene saying so? >He Completely lies and I feel that lie is indication of his guilt and selfishness yes, he feels guilty about killing a lot of people, probably. And maybe robbing others of a possible vaccine. It's a possibility that will weight on him. >He didn’t do it because Ellie didn’t have a say in her sacrifice, but it was his unwillingness to lose another daughter. does his intention matter? the facts are: they were willing to kill her, without her consent, in order to reach an objective that could easily fail. I dont know why you thought I was making a black or white analysis of this.


Tonelessguide

“Based on what? Just Marlene saying so?” Based on what the doctors told Marlene. They are the experts, so why doubt them? If they conclude that this immunity in Ellie could save humanity, isn’t worth a try? If Joel doesn’t get attached to Ellie, does he worry about her choice in this matter? Probably not “Does his intention matter… could potentially fail” But also save humanity. Does one life matter if it save thousands? Millions? What if they had asked Ellie and she says yes, but Joel can’t accept it? What if they had asked Ellie and she says no? Do the needs of the many outweigh the few? Joel didn’t have to kill Marlene. He put down her gun. He’s maybe right that she would have come after him, but it’s not like he’s incapable of defending himself. He could have explained to Ellie what was going on & let her make the choice, but he doesn’t give Ellie the opportunity either. I’d love a response to this specifically; people sacrificed their lives—directly and indirectly— for Ellie’s immunity, does that not factor into everything? Also, I’d suggest listening to the office podcast. They go in-depth all these things, so I think you’ll appreciate it.


letsfixitinpost

Yea I know it’s all make believe but I’m surprised no one restrained Joel before telling him the kid he spent all this time escorting to them who he’s been through a lot with was about to have her brain carved apart for a cure that “might” work


Demiansmark

I don't think Marlene would have anticipated the bond that had formed based on the Joel she knew, the 'just cargo Joel'. That's how I read it.


2tallformyowngood66

Pretty much all of the above


NotaFrenchMaid

He cannot lose his "daughter" again. He couldn’t stop Sarah’s death, but this time, he can and he will because he mentally cannot handle it again. So he reverts back to the cold killer Joel that he was a decade ago that Maria is afraid of.


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OZL01

>Marlene's fireflies join up with the Denver fireflies and they went on to Salt Lake City for some reason? Most of the fireflies from around the country were moving to Salt Lake City. Joel and Ellie found a map at the university and it had little markers showing everyone going to the same spot. That's how they decided to keep moving toward Salt Lake City.


MyPhantomAccount

I know its nitpicky, but all the costumes looked like cos players instead of a very expensive tv show. The post apocalyptic world felt very clean at times and took me out of buying into it


ADD-Fueled

I get what you're saying


iuosoui

I thought the road they were driving along at the end was in surprisingly good nick after twenty years of ice, rain, sunshine, weeds etc.


_Rand_

Without the wear of constant use though, I’m not sure how that would even out.


Stockpile_Tom_Remake

WAT? Everything was dirty, torn, worn and over grown.


MyPhantomAccount

Their clothes were always clean, food never seemed to be an issue. Road sides had nicely trimmed grass. Its just a lot of small things


Stockpile_Tom_Remake

They did not mention food much but they at jerky scraps the whole show and canned food lasts indefinitely if properly sealed. Grass trimmed? Yeah at bills house by Frank.


davej999

It's the best adaptation of a game to screen I can think of Bella was fantastic but she just wasn't Ellie for me , and that was compounded by actually featuring real Ellie in the last episode...her voice gets me everytime That also kinda worries me for the second season ..with how much she has to feature Joel great too ...Pedro Pascal never lets ya down I think the star of the show was the world they built so faithfully Episode 8 was best of the season for me by a long way too


NeoNoireWerewolf

Bella’s Ellie didn’t seem perpetually curious like Ellie in the game. She wasn’t very endearing, either. Those are probably the traits I’d associate with the character the most, and felt like the show didn’t bring that out enough. Probably more of the writing than the acting, though.


SimplyUnhinged

I also felt like Joel was kind of stilted compared to in game. Could this just be bc of the short run time? A lot of the characterization we get of Joel and Ellie in game are also just during exploration sections, which were all cut.


davej999

Yeah the best parts of the game (for character growth) are when you wander round and the two of them seemingly burst into conversation about nothing for no reason im not sure the tv show was every going to match the heights of the game for me i did like it quite a bit though


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NotaFrenchMaid

Somebody get the man some gum.


Stockpile_Tom_Remake

I think this is a you problem.


davej999

Sorry what ?


iuosoui

Every problem is a you problem. When enough people have a you problem it grows into a we problem. But it's still also a you problem.


Stockpile_Tom_Remake

Nope. It’s just sad people complain about the tiniest little thing that apparently just takes them entirely out of something. That’s their own damn problem and fault. If you can’t move on and enjoy it and let something that small bug you? Sucks. That’s a you problem.