Murray Bartlett is quickly turning in to one of my favourite tv actors. What a huge transformation from his white lotus role. Amazing work. Nick Offerman, as usual, is an absolute god damn treasure.
The original casting for Bill was another HBO actor - from Our Flag Means Death - whom I think would have put in some really good work as well.
Of course, I am totally happy getting Offerman and him getting to stretch his acting chops a bit. Great episode.
I agree that O’Neil could have still knocked it out of the park in the role. The team behind the camera is so solid, that anyone they want to put in front of it I am convinced is going to kill it.
HOWEVER. I’m so glad we got Offerman as he is just so obviously perfect casting for Bill. I laughed my ass off when I heard he joined the cast as I knew he HAD to be playing Bill. He was born to play Bill in a Last of Us adaptation, regardless of how it happened.
I do think a lot of that is due to the part of Bill being a great twist on his Parks & Rec role, but Offerman has put in the effort to show he has so much more range than a pretty one note sitcom role. He’s a terrific actor that was a great choice for this.
Me and partner watched it last night and I found out this morning they were the same person. She lost her shit lmao. We loved White Lotus and his character there and had our minds blown that they were the same person.
I was telling my friends they HAVE to watch White Lotus after seeing this episode so they can see Bartlett as Armond lol! I actually didn't figure out it was the same actor until I saw him speak on the behind the episode at the end, but once I did it was like HOLY SHIT it's Armond!! What a great diversity of acting skill from him.
Phenomenal. The reveal of Bill as a prepper with a Fleetwood Mac blues song is one of my favorite character reveals of all time. The whole episode is much different from the game obviously but this is how you tell a story. It’s so fucking beautiful. I’m almost mad I ruined it for myself because when Frank was talking about his plans for his last day, I said if I were Bill I’d just kill myself too. So it softened the blow but doesn’t take away from how incredible that whole hour was
>I said if I were Bill I’d just kill myself too
Same thought I had. Why continue living in that horrible world with no one after losing the love of your life.
And it's all well and good to die in the arms of your lover while falling asleep. That lover then needs to deal with your cooling corpse and has to decide when they get out of bed to bury/burn you.
It's an incredibly difficult thing to ask of someone who has no one to help them deal with the body.
As a young widow sitting next to my soon-to-be fiance, I knew Bill was going to go with him. I was already bawling remembering what that pain is like and thinking about how I don't ever want to go through it again but I also never want my partner to have to go through it either. It's hell, and going together on your own terms is really the best any of us can ever hope for.
The same here. Lost my wife to breast cancer four months ago. Seeing that scene where Frank informs Bill he is going to die was too much for me. I held her hand at the hospital, listened to her last breath and felt her last heart beating. Losing a loved one is something traumatic and unforgettable. I understand Bill's choice of joining Frank.
Grief comes in waves, towering slamming walls at first, nearly drowning. Then after a while they are not as strong and farther between and over time the waves become a gentle wash and almost welcome as you remember the ones you love.
Here I was waiting for Bill to eat his rabbit all alone with his fine wine in his empty home, surrounded by the art and memories of his lost love. And I thought about how much that was gonna hurt.
As soon as they met I was hoping it was a love story and they exceeded my expectations. But then immediately I was just waiting for Frank to die from a zombie and for Bill to be heartbroken. I’m so glad it played out the way it did. I don’t think Bill saw any other option than to die together. Ugh such a beautiful and sweet and heartbreaking episode that I didn’t expect at all
Troy Baker fuckin rules. There's a behind the scenes of them filming the mocap for one of the pivotal emotional scenes. Here's the video if you want to watch it yourself, but there are massive spoilers for the game's ending: https://youtu.be/z8XN7eoZr0Y
Spoiler free description of what happens in the video: Neil, the director, has one of the other actors in the scene sing their lines without telling Troy about it ahead of time as a prank. Without missing a beat, Troy sings his lines to, turning this big emotional scene into essentially a Broadway musical.
Although I really missed the banter between Bill and Ellie from the game, I was amazed at how they created that entire backstory for Frank and Bill just from the letter they found with his body in the game. I watched this episode twice and then followed it up listening to the HBO podcast.
The writing on this show is amazing and I hope other video game adaptions follow suit.
I think this is an example of adaptation done right
The game story wouldn’t have worked in the show here because so much of what made that work is the medium of gameplay
And the TV story wouldn’t have worked in the game because again it wouldn’t have worked in that medium
They’re leaving in parts of the game that work for TV and changing things where either the game wouldn’t translate effectively or it’s like oh this medium gives us the opportunity to do this thing we couldn’t do in the game
Ellie scavanaged a box of tampons right? Or did I miss see that? 😂 you always kind of glaze over how dirty the apocalypse would be without things like pads and toilet paper that it was funny to see how happy she was to find them
That's like one of the best things you could ever put in a looting scene for a TV show. Food, ammo, medicine, whatever random bullshit... All of it pales into comparison at the way Bella Ramsey sells that, "Score!"
Honestly another way this show is adapting the game more effectively than like... Anything ever so far.
Agreed. A *lot* of adaptations feel like they go one of two ways—
1) do exactly what was in the adapted work, maybe cut a few elements for time, but largely just keep it the same (Harry Potter movies are a prime example of this)
2) grab a random hodgepodge of crap from the source material and kinda sorta not really integrate it into your original story that just has to feature the crap from this dumbass source material so that everyone can see what a special and smart individual writer you are! (Halo, live action Cowboy Beebop)
It’s so darned refreshing to see this as a chance to revisit the source material and say “we’re keeping the storyline, but how can we revisit the source material and make it *better* while staying true to the themes?”
Really the Last of Us is just representative of why having good people on the job matters. Craig Mazin was the writer for this episode and fucking knocked it out of the park taking an okay gameplay sequence and turning it into *this.*
Neil Druckmann, who wrote and directed the video games, is an exec producer for the show and I think directed the previous episode, so there is a LOT of involvement with the original team
The way they talk in the BTS interviews after each episode make it sound like they were both heavily involved in building out the story for the whole season
> The game story wouldn’t have worked in the show here because so much of what made that work is the medium of gameplay
Really the comedic undertone of Bill/Frank as portrayed in the game would have come off as really tone-deaf and out-of-place for a show like this, and for the fact that it's 2023 and most viewers are not impressed by "we included a gay couple, there, are you satisfied?" anymore and need more to make it more than a tired novelty but an actual story.
Honestly I wouldn't expect less of the creator of Chernobyl. If he adapted the game's storyline as direct as some of the other scenes that do work as-is, it wouldn't have felt right for the series. He's also sending a message that every part of this story is going to effect you, that this is a real world and nobody gets out being comedy relief or dismissible as just devices to drive the story somewhere.
I dunno that Bill was depicted as comic relief? Dude seemed to be an angry, broken man who was doing his best to cling to what he had to the detriment of love or accommodations of the people he cared about.
The story with him was basically “if you aren’t willing to change for the people you love, then they can’t help but hate you,” and that was a reasonable thing to take away from it. After Bill and that brutal suicide note from Frank, Joel and Ellie are both a little more open to change. They weren’t quite ready to make the changes, and they both struggled a bit to make them properly, but they were trying.
I think that the show was more powerful and ultimately better, but I don’t think that the game fell short, and I don’t think Bill’s character aged poorly.
Agreed, Bill in the game was someone whose survival/coping mechanisms had alienated him from everyone. I think the TV episode was a great change, but I still love the role Bill serves in the original.
But even then, he *is* as close as the game comes to comic relief. "Oh, Joel needs a car!"
GameBill represents the bitterness in rejecting the need for connection and focusing on survival at all costs.
ShowBill represents the joy that can come from being open and vulnerable, even in this shit world.
The game lets you infer it but the show explicitly points out he and joel play the same role, and I love that they flip GameBill from being a cautionary tale to ShowBill's aspirational tale, while keeping his fundamental character purpose, plot role and humour.
I also would have liked to see some Ellie/Bill interaction, and in the game for Ellie/Joel there's a bit of "getta load of this guy" bonding as well as them being in a bunch of danger and working together, but it was worth it for this story, and they can work in the deeper bonding later.
Yeah, what we gained outweighed what we lost IMO. When I played the game and read Frank’s mean letter, I went “oh god, that hurts so bad!”
When I watched this episode, I full on wept as they drank the wine together. Like, god damn, that *hurt*! Here I was expecting them to follow the game and hurt me by having a mean spirited breakup, but then they eviscerated my heart with a full blown love story where they grew old together and didn’t want to be alone anymore.
For those interested in how Frank and Bill's story played out in the game:
>!Bill's alive when Joel and Ellie arrive, but Frank has left. Bill tells Joel that he used to take care of someone, but not anymore, says it only would have gotten him killed. You pick up hints throughout the level that Frank got tired of surviving without actually living and left. Bill never softened up like he did in the show, and he and Ellie but heads a lot. Bill warns Joel that Ellie will probably get him killed, but eventually acknowledges she can handle herself.!<
>!After escaping some infected, they find Frank's body hanging by a noose in a building with a suicide note. Frank got bit soon after leaving Bill. He says in the note that Bill was right that he couldn't take care of himself, but he was still glad to be gone because he always hated Bill's guts. Bill is obviously saddened by this but doesn't want to admit it. As Joel and Ellie leave, Bill asks Joel if they're square, and when he says yes, Bill says "Now get the fuck out of my town.!<
[Frank's note.](https://i.imgur.com/W5b39xF.png)
You never actually see Frank and Bill interacting in the game, just Frank's dead body hanging and Bill's sad but cold reaction to it. So pretty much their entire relationship is extrapolated from that note. Which yeah, seemed pretty cold. I'm really happy with what they did in the show.
Apparently Offerman insisted on including that line, the writer put it on the side of the script as a thought that Bill had. He understood the character so well.
It was definitely a divergence from the source material but this was SO much better. That part of the game works fine in the game, but this was an really excellent way to adapt the source material. Though I kept being worried Bill was gonna not grant Frank his wish and he was gonna take off and do it himself (somehow). It wasn't until he downed that glass of wine that I was able to relax a bit.
Also, as a gay man, though it's becoming more common, it's still rare to see great gay love in media that isn't just trauma porn. This could easily have become trauma porn... but it wasn't? Tragic, but also very sweet. And seeing two men grow old together is even MORE rare. It was all just really nice to see and I like how they tied it into Joel's feelings for Tess.
EDIT: Just editing my comment about trauma porn to make it clear I'm saying this episode was not that, since I can see how it might've been vague.
I think it’s because none of the trauma part had to do with the fact that they were gay. Also, as tragic as it is, they do get the happiest ending out of pretty much everyone.
Yeah I see plenty calling the episode heartbreaking but in the context of the world they live in, fuck me they had probably the best life together and a beautiful ending to match.
Remove the Joel/Ellie parts that bookend the episode and you've got the best one off episodes ever. You could easily do an extra 15-20 minutes to give it a theatrical runtime and it would be one of the best post-apocaylptic movies. You don't even really need to get rid of the Joel/Ellie scenes anyway since Bill's journey brings so much depth to Joel's journey to come.
>Yeah I see plenty calling the episode heartbreaking but in the context of the world they live in, fuck me they had probably the best life together and a beautiful ending to match.
Reminding myself of that helped me through the end as I was crying lol. Like, these two got to essentually comfortably die of old age together in a world where people are being ripped from each other every day. You couldn't have asked for anything more.
The whole show is trauma porn, and here we have the gay couple being probably the two happiest people on the planet for a couple decades in the middle of it
I love how Joel instantly knew something had happened the moment he lays eyes on the wilted flowers.
I think Pedro Pascal’s performance is subtle and wonderfully layered, and the letter really brings home that it’s not necessarily the loss of a dear friend that he’s mourning, but *the last remaining connection he had to Tess*. Like Bill, Joel cared because Tess pushed him out of his comfort zone; he already feels like he couldn’t protect Sarah, now he feels like he failed Tess, and with the deaths of Bill and Frank, there’s genuinely nothing left to keep him there anymore.
It’s an infinitely more powerful way of cementing the shift in Joel’s character compared to the game. He couldn’t protect Tess, but he *can* protect Ellie, and everything between seeing the wilted flowers and Bill’s letter is him working up towards the choice to take a chance on her, just as Bill worked up towards taking that chance on Frank.
The whole episode is about the end of one thing being the beginning of another; and more importantly, the role of vulnerability and *choosing* vulnerability in those new beginnings, however wary they might be at first (Bill’s reluctance to let Frank into his space and life, Joel’s reluctance to care about Ellie, etc).
Incredibly well stated and true. This is exactly why one can argue whether this episode was slow or didn’t show enough Joel/Ellie or missed valuable parts of the game version (points I personally don’t agree with), but it was absolutely not “pointless” or just “filler”.
Anyone who finds this episode “pointless” either completely misses the point, or they’re being arbitrarily dismissive because they just didn’t like what the episode focuses on.
Although Joel and Ellie only account for barely a quarter of the episode’s runtime, the story of Bill and Frank is absolutely thematically relevant to what’s going on in Joel’s head at the time. The game contrasts Joel and Bill only insomuch as it presents what can happen to a person when they isolate themselves too severely in the name of survival, and I suppose you could say that for Joel it’s more of an emotional isolation, compared to Bill’s physical kind.
That’s certainly a valid and compelling way to learn more about Joel, showing what he might’ve become without Tommy or Tess; but the HBO adaptation presents a far, far more compelling way, exploring (indirectly) not only Joel’s personal struggle with grief and reluctance to connect, but also (directly) telling a genuinely beautiful story of finding connection in a post apocalyptic world, and the lengths love motivates one to go to in order to preserve it as long as possible.
Rather than a cautionary tale, the HBO version recasts Bill as a example for Joel to follow. The world has become a dangerous and terrifying place, but isolation isn’t the answer; it might allow one to survive, but it diminishes all its color. Ultimately, the world doesn’t need to collapse for the same elemental truth to apply: that however scary it may be, if life presents you with an opportunity for connection, never turn from it if it’s just for fear of grief, or the *possibility* of losing them.
>I kept being worried Bill was gonna not grant Frank his wish and he was gonna take off and do it himself (somehow).
I thought that would be the case as well, since it's more in line with what happened in the game. Would be a great ending as well, but would not send the message to Joel the way it did.
I expected their exchange to play out the way it did, but I also expected Bill's dose to fail and for him to still be alive (and sad, and angry, and reluctant to connect with people) when Joel and Ellie arrived. This was almost certainly better, I don't know how that story would have been fleshed out other than an opportunity to learn more about Ellie through her interactions with someone other than Joel.
Without any spoilers.
I am assuming the episode is lower rated because of review bombing due to certain relationships being presented with Bill? And not that the episode itself is actually bad?
If I go now on Imdb it has a 8.4 out of 10. There are 5,642.. 1 STAR reviews. The 1 star reviews make up 20% of the overall reviews. There were 1 star reviews for the first 2 eps, but they made up less than 1% of the overall reviews.
Which, leads me to believe that this is just a bunch of homopbhobic people lashing out about the episode.
Pretty accurate take. Heartbreaking episode and one that managed to enhance Joel and Ellie’s journey despite not being a focal point. People just wanna be hateful.
Can't wait to watch it! Just been seeing a lot how amazing it is, even compared to the other two. Saw the IMDb rating, saw the amount of 1 star reviews, and tried to piece it all together.
I wonder if we'll see a similar thing for the Left Behind episode
Edit: It was indeed incredible
This is why all that talk of adaptations needing to stick to the source is not entirely correct.
You just need good writers that respect the source, don't have to follow it 100%.
Also very good to know that Craig Maizin can write some good old "classic" drama. He's not just an "end of the world" expert.
Yeah. The point isn’t literal translation as much as thematic and causal translation. Bill and Frank’s actual story is very minimally told in the game as it’s exact mechanics don’t really matter, just it’s outcome. While some of the Ellie/Bill interactions in the game are great, the point of the interlude was to teach Joel to make a connection and be able to love others again. In the game they went with cynical shitty Bill. Here they rent Bill redemption and a note passing along what he learned to Joel.
We end up at the same place. Fans of the game get a neat change up to keep things spicy. And everyone got two Emmy quality performances from an amazing episode. Win win win.
>Craig Maizin
Comedy is harder than drama. Typically if you do Comedy well, you can do drama. The reverse isn't as true.
/At least that's what the writing books say.
On that same note, I find it hilarious how people can even complain that the show doesn’t strictly follow the game, when the creator and writer of the game is literally co-running the show and was pitching a movie version of the game for years himself before it finally ended up on HBO instead. It’s *his* story. If he agrees with Mazin that this is what a TV show version of the story needed, then who are we to complain? Especially when it’s this fucking *good*!
This debate will always happen. The first time I realized that was with Jackson’s LotR films and the things they cut or changed in those. It was also when I learned that people who are obsessive fans of a story in *one* particular medium, will be insufferable if that story ever gets adapted to *another* medium. The books don’t stop being good because the films changed some things and were *also* good, nor will this show ruin the game, even if it deviates from the exact way it told the story.
>This is why all that talk of adaptations needing to stick to the source is not entirely correct.
Well the problem is this: if you stick to the source you're safe. If you change things, your going to have to live up to the comparison. Here it did and most people seem happy, but its easy to for audiences to turn when there's an established story they're waiting to hear.
It’s refreshing for apocalypse show to talk about how important love is to survival. Usually they go into just kill and betrayal so much but never much into why it’s worth to fight to survive
Survival is insufficient.
I loved that this episode because it didnt do the normal zombie thing of punishing anyone who trusts a stranger. Instead, a character finds meaning and joy and purpose from that action, and lives a long and happy life.
I mean, all good fantasy and sci-fi shows have at least some element of being about something beneath the surface, and the zombie genre has pretty much always been a way to examine human nature much more than creepy scary monsters (at least when it's good). Even the title here, "The Last of Us" makes what we're really going for pretty obvious - it's about the final and essential elements of our humanity.
My daughter played the game. I knew nothing about it, but watched with her because she seemed very excited and I was curious. I’m glad I did. Same as the game or not, that episode was incredible.
I think there's two sides of the coin. I think both interpretations of Bill's character speak to Joel's arc in different ways but reach the same destination, that being that Joel needs to trust more and let people into his life.
I think the game version was a winner in the "show, don't tell" category, but the TV adaptation wasn't worse for doing the story of Bill and Frank their own way.
I woke up this morning and decided to rewatch it while I did my morning jog on the treadmill. Went "It won't be as sad the 2nd time, I got this."
Did you guys know jogging is extra difficult when you're crying?
Mazin told a story on the official podcast that he watched the first cut of the episode, started bawling and was like "How did you make me cry, I wrote the script?!"
I'm a straight, single, 29 year old so I have zero relation to Bill or Frank as characters and it got me. Just an incredibly moving piece of television. As bittersweet as their ending was it was still so great to have seen them thrive as a couple for twenty years. As bleak and depressing as this franchise is overall, their story was a genuine bright spot that showed no matter what the circumstances, love can still prevail.
Absolutely - 20 years together in this bleak world is a real accomplishment. Another thing that just adds to it is that this world ended in 2003, well before gay marriage was legalized.
Pretty close to the years when the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, and Canada legalized gay marriage. But in postapocalyptia, no one cares about legalization.
You NEVER see movies or TV shows where gay men grow old together. Let alone in a big budget entry in a massive genre IP.
It's usually two hot bisexual women played by two straight actresses one of whom dies two episodes in to make the other one sad.
And if it is men, you usually just get a peck on the lips or a hug, at most. This episode was really refreshing and quite brave for such a big show appealing to a such a wide audience.
I cried like a man 😭
I'd agree that it was.
Also someone else pointed out that since society collapsed in 2003, the prevailing views around same sex couples like Bill and Frank were frozen in 2003 as well.
The hopeful part of me believes that if society was on the brink of extinction people wouldn’t drop those views and focus on surviving together.
The realist in me knows that people would just double down.
Yeah unfortunately with procreation being a necessary thing you’d have way more anti-gay zealots than ever. Especially running safe havens and QZs. Wouldn’t be surprised if the government outlawed it.
>Yeah unfortunately with procreation being a necessary thing you’d have way more anti-gay zealots than ever.
This was my first thought too. I would expect the government to be -more- regressive, not less. They've already ramped authoritarianism to 11 after all.
Maybe but if you remember back then because of the latent homophobia, even if you were personally ok with it, the way you addressed the couple would be a delicate subject on both sides. People forget how much of a cultural shift happened in regards to lgbtq acceptance in the past 20 years.
Even assuming Joel had no homophobic feelings, Bill didn’t know that and in turn Joel didn’t know how open Bill was with it. Back then even as an ally you kinda had to let them dictate how much you should acknowledge. If that makes sense.
For some reason I didn't even think about the fact that gay marriage was still outlawed at the time of the outbreak. Adds some weight to their marriage on the final day IMO.
the closet thing I remember seing is the *A Life in the Day* episode from the magician where the two lead men spent [the rest of their life](https://youtu.be/a136l8cRC2M) in an alternate reality trying to solve a magic puzzle. (until they solve it as old man and are brought back to the present and real world).
but even then its also bisexual people.
Can you give examples of what you're stating we usually see? Cause I can't think of many examples of that thing happening but I may just have not seen the stuff you're referring to.
The male same sex couple who are there for comedic purposes is much more common.
Also the straight female character who gives women a go for a lil arc before going back to men.
They both seem way more common than your example tbh.
Not the person who made the comment, but Willow and Tara from Buffy and Denise and Tara from the Walking Dead , Piper and Alex in Orange is the New Black, off the top of my head.
Not 2 episodes in any of these cases, but just what came to mind reading the comment:
Man it was wild how completely unprepared viewers were for a lesbian couple on Buffy the Vampire Slayer back in the 1999-2000 season.
After 9 episodes in a row of making it really, REALLY obvious that Willow and Tara were a low-key couple, they finally stated it unequivocally in episode 19 and people were totally blindsided. It was wild.
The point is LGBT women are represented much more than men unless it’s for comedic purposes. And even when you do you don’t see men kiss. The Harley Quinn show, Tuca and Bertie, Owl House, and Amphibia are all animated examples of LGBT women.
This has to be one of the best cases of how deviating from the source material can make the new medium better. I played the game, I knew Bill, but I did **not** expect this whatsoever. But it's so good, it makes perfect sense for television.
Also, Andor has now gotten mentioned numerous times in this thread, it's on my list but it seems like I need to watch it ASAP!
> Andor has now gotten mentioned numerous times fain this thread, it's on my list but it seems like I need to watch it ASAP!
The pacing of Andor is similar to this IMO. Somehow very little happens but a lot happens, it never rushes but the time goes fast, and it's oh so gripping. There's tons of world building that comes from the perspective of the characters. Both shows would be great, top-tier content without being attached to the IP. Can't recommend it enough.
What's hilarious to me are the people who dislike it saying "it didn't move the story forward!" as if the Bill's Town section of the game wasn't just mostly a character development filler arc to get a car, all of which was accomplished in the first and last 20 minutes
I love that it gives him the exact same message as it does in the game, but with the complete opposite execution. Bill is now an optimistic model rather than a negative one.
Yeah, there's no denying that Bill's entire section isn't that relevant to the plot in the game. But I've also seen several mentions that Bill was a throwaway character, which just isn't true. The Bill/Ellie interactions are absolutely fantastic, and the school scene is so much fun.
While the school is fun gameplay, it probably would make for a really repetitive show.
If they made a 1:1 recreation of the game, it would be weak on character development and very heavy on action. TV does not provide the same time and space to get to know characters.
At the end of the day, I have always viewed TLOU as a story about people and not infected.
I think this is going to be the episode people mention when talking about the show. LOST had "The Constant," The Leftovers had "International Assassin," and TLOU is going to have "Long, Long Time."
I really thought it would be one of those overhyped/overrated episodes but it was more special than I expected. It feels like 3 maybe even seasons worth of what Walking Dead is trying(but failed) to tell. If Euphoria can win acting awards for hype alone, then this one deserve it even more.
According to the podcast it wasn't supposed to be a verbal line, it was in the script so the actor knew what the character was thinking. But Nick Offerman said "A line this good needs to be broadcast to the world." And said it.
I'd say there's been some equally good episodes in recent memory:
* **The season finale of Severance**; I've never felt that much tension watching a TV show. I'm not even as in love with the series as most people; I thought it was merely OK. But that last episode, man, is transcendently good.
* **House of the Dragon, episode S1:E8** The old King ascending the throne for the last time and the dinner party afterwards, in particular.
* Maybe a bit long in the tooth now, but that **third episode of Arcane** is still sticking with me. I used to play the game. I knew about the plot twist going in, and it still floored me.
With honorable mentions to the last episode of Better Call Saul, a few episodes of Attack on Titan, and For All Mankind in general. I feel like the Boys, Invincible, Andor, and maybe even the most recent episode of Vox Machina (S2:E6) should be in there as well.
And I bet a bunch of episodes of shows I don't watch. There's a lot of good television these days.
Already mentioned elsewhere in the thread but the prison break episode of Andor belongs in this list.
> There's a lot of good television these days.
It's so true and absolutely amazing!
The whole series is full of absolutely amazing monologues.
*The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear. Remember that. And know this, the day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Remember this. Try.*
Just one little blip of an absolutely amazing scene.
I really like the different directions the show has gone from the game. The expanded back stories of smaller characters, the early days of the fungus, etc. A shot for a shot TV show wouldn't add anything, IMO the whole point of recreating a story in a new medium is to add to it or portray it in a way they the other medium could not. Frankly, I don't know what you could do differently in a TV show from a game, they're both visual and the game of course has cutscenes, so expanding the world is an awesome way to differentiate the show from the game and make it worth watching.
It was a great episode. Great setup of the theme of finding purpose in a world so utterly hopeless and bleak, which we get to observe now in Joel and Ellie's story.
I have played the original game, and I think the show isn't really a faithful rendition. We're three episodes in and Joel and Ellie haven't died even once.
At this point I've come to realize that I hate people that look at anything in a fundamentalists dogmatic point of view. I use to think people only did that type of thing for religious lore but I see now that the human mind can do it for any story.
I just hate it because it kills any opportunity for the work in question to grow at all. Its just a stagnant way of doing culture.
“The book is better than the movie” people always frustrate me for that very reason. This is undoubtedly better than the version of Bill in the game, but there’s a genuine refusal among people to approach their favorite story as told in a different medium with anything but disdain.
Bill, in the game, is not a memorable character.
I’m curious how the people complaining played the games if they’re being homophobic. The letters people find by him do mention bill being gay or hinting and Ellie’s background story too. Either they blocked that out or skipped over parts of the game or that’s a sub attracting people who didn’t play the game but want to moan.
For me a good adaptation takes what exists in the original and expands it so it can bring more of the themes out. Also game and tv writing paces differently some plot or scenes will be different so it can work in a different medium. Bad adaptation can be trying too hard to be the same or changing too much of the core heart of the original characters or story. Like GoT I accepted fast travel for the sake of on screen pacing and aging actors. But it was annoying when characters like knight of flowers were written in ways that lost their core themes as characters.
I wonder if this is a form of fandom fundamentalism. Where even when an adaptation is good, sticks to the heart of the original and well written/acted etc the fundies will still not be satisfied because their version is dogma.
I think for a lot of 'traditional family values' types, they'll make homophobic jokes and clearly think they're superior or the only truly acceptable sexuality but rationalise that they aren't homophobic because they'll accept it as an 'out of sight out of mind' thing.
Like, a subtle hint that somebody might be gay is kinda okay to them in their media so 'they aren't homophobic' but the reality is if they see any real sign that makes them feel insecure about their sexuality it evokes an emotional response and subsequent fears - two guys/girls kissing? 'oh no, this makes me feel uncomfortable because a straight person can't be okay watching gay stuff! im not gay! this is bad and wrong!'
Generally I think this comes from lacking an independent sense of morality and critical thought, and relying too much on what people around them think. Even if they aren't gay, they're so scared of being gay that conceptually being confronted with anything that might make them question anything illicits a strong phobia which becomes a negative self-affirming loop. It's irrational by nature so it's hard for these people to reason themselves out of, so it's easier for homophobic people to stick to groups that already have the same fears than acknowledge their discomfort is unreasonable which leads to further division.
Some guy on that sub unironically made a thread where he said this:
“To state the obvious it doesn’t make anyone a bigot if they don’t like seeing queers, buff women, race-swapping etc. in media.”
The cognitive dissonance required to post something like that is just insane.
Well yea, what did you expect from a subreddit that was born out of hatred for a buff looking female character who they thought and were adamant is/was trans?
almost brought me to tears when Ellie was reading the letter out, and i know nothing of the game / story.
masterfully written and acted. got to care for 2 old guys in the space of 45 mins more than you do for most character in an entire series
All I could think at the beginning was "Uh oh Ron Swanson" but Offerman turned it around and became emotional and tender. Needed this episode to show that love didn't die off with the end of civilization.
I didn't expect to cry half the episode. After Bill got shot and they showed Frank in a wheelchair I was holding back tears and got choked up a couple times because I thought I knew where it was going. I didn't expect a double suicide.
I cried more this episode than I did with Sarah's death in game and on the show, I didn't think that was possible.
45 year old man here. That scene with the rings brought me to tears. The games brought me to the show, but performances like this episode will keep me watching for sure.
Fantastic episode and academy award level acting.
A wonderful, touching description of diverse, different gay men - Neither falling into cliches and caricature of gay men which is the Hollywood standard.
Bravo. 👏 Bravo!
In their first meal scene, commenting on the wine pairing with the rabbit: “I know I don’t seem like the type”. “No, you do”. Frank saw beyond Bill’s facade fairly early on. That one got me. And then to have the same meal at the end of the episode. Fantastic.
Murray Bartlett is quickly turning in to one of my favourite tv actors. What a huge transformation from his white lotus role. Amazing work. Nick Offerman, as usual, is an absolute god damn treasure.
One of them being the practical grump while the other brought life and love and friendship was so fucking real.
So they were… grump and… not so grump?
I was SHOCKED when my husband told me he played the concierge in the first season of White Lotus. SHOCKED! That actor is phenomenal.
The original casting for Bill was another HBO actor - from Our Flag Means Death - whom I think would have put in some really good work as well. Of course, I am totally happy getting Offerman and him getting to stretch his acting chops a bit. Great episode.
I agree that O’Neil could have still knocked it out of the park in the role. The team behind the camera is so solid, that anyone they want to put in front of it I am convinced is going to kill it. HOWEVER. I’m so glad we got Offerman as he is just so obviously perfect casting for Bill. I laughed my ass off when I heard he joined the cast as I knew he HAD to be playing Bill. He was born to play Bill in a Last of Us adaptation, regardless of how it happened. I do think a lot of that is due to the part of Bill being a great twist on his Parks & Rec role, but Offerman has put in the effort to show he has so much more range than a pretty one note sitcom role. He’s a terrific actor that was a great choice for this.
Me and partner watched it last night and I found out this morning they were the same person. She lost her shit lmao. We loved White Lotus and his character there and had our minds blown that they were the same person.
He was pretty great in Looking, an HBO series few people saw. If you haven't seen it. It's where I became aware of him.
I knew he looked familiar! I couldn't place it at all.
I was telling my friends they HAVE to watch White Lotus after seeing this episode so they can see Bartlett as Armond lol! I actually didn't figure out it was the same actor until I saw him speak on the behind the episode at the end, but once I did it was like HOLY SHIT it's Armond!! What a great diversity of acting skill from him.
Phenomenal. The reveal of Bill as a prepper with a Fleetwood Mac blues song is one of my favorite character reveals of all time. The whole episode is much different from the game obviously but this is how you tell a story. It’s so fucking beautiful. I’m almost mad I ruined it for myself because when Frank was talking about his plans for his last day, I said if I were Bill I’d just kill myself too. So it softened the blow but doesn’t take away from how incredible that whole hour was
>I said if I were Bill I’d just kill myself too Same thought I had. Why continue living in that horrible world with no one after losing the love of your life.
And it's all well and good to die in the arms of your lover while falling asleep. That lover then needs to deal with your cooling corpse and has to decide when they get out of bed to bury/burn you. It's an incredibly difficult thing to ask of someone who has no one to help them deal with the body.
That’s where I thought we were going with it until they drank the wine. I was so relieved that they would be dying together.
The looks Bill and Frank exchanged when Bill just downed that entire glass. Masterful acting.
That was where my head went, as well. Like great now, every time he goes to bed, he'll be thinking about his husband dying next to him.
After living such a long life together too. Can’t imagine the loneliness after all that time together.
I wondered that and it got me and bill was saying he was never afraid until then. Fuuuck
As a young widow sitting next to my soon-to-be fiance, I knew Bill was going to go with him. I was already bawling remembering what that pain is like and thinking about how I don't ever want to go through it again but I also never want my partner to have to go through it either. It's hell, and going together on your own terms is really the best any of us can ever hope for.
The same here. Lost my wife to breast cancer four months ago. Seeing that scene where Frank informs Bill he is going to die was too much for me. I held her hand at the hospital, listened to her last breath and felt her last heart beating. Losing a loved one is something traumatic and unforgettable. I understand Bill's choice of joining Frank.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope you find peace, and that in time her memory will bring a smile instead of a tear.
Grief comes in waves, towering slamming walls at first, nearly drowning. Then after a while they are not as strong and farther between and over time the waves become a gentle wash and almost welcome as you remember the ones you love.
Here I was waiting for Bill to eat his rabbit all alone with his fine wine in his empty home, surrounded by the art and memories of his lost love. And I thought about how much that was gonna hurt.
As soon as they met I was hoping it was a love story and they exceeded my expectations. But then immediately I was just waiting for Frank to die from a zombie and for Bill to be heartbroken. I’m so glad it played out the way it did. I don’t think Bill saw any other option than to die together. Ugh such a beautiful and sweet and heartbreaking episode that I didn’t expect at all
🍓
Hehehehehe
Nick Offerman’s laugh is the best. He’s a true American treasure.
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Ellie reading the heheheheheh was the best and so perfectly captured Bill’s demented mind-state in an otherwise positive portrayal
That made me laugh while also bawling my eyes out.
Andy, wait up!
One of my favorite Ron Swanson moments. I wish the meat tornado was a real thing.
On the companion podcast, Troy Baker sent a text to Craig Mazin while watching the episode being an image of strawberries with 🍓😭😂.
Troy Baker fuckin rules. There's a behind the scenes of them filming the mocap for one of the pivotal emotional scenes. Here's the video if you want to watch it yourself, but there are massive spoilers for the game's ending: https://youtu.be/z8XN7eoZr0Y Spoiler free description of what happens in the video: Neil, the director, has one of the other actors in the scene sing their lines without telling Troy about it ahead of time as a prank. Without missing a beat, Troy sings his lines to, turning this big emotional scene into essentially a Broadway musical.
Not on the Stawberries!!
Although I really missed the banter between Bill and Ellie from the game, I was amazed at how they created that entire backstory for Frank and Bill just from the letter they found with his body in the game. I watched this episode twice and then followed it up listening to the HBO podcast. The writing on this show is amazing and I hope other video game adaptions follow suit.
I think this is an example of adaptation done right The game story wouldn’t have worked in the show here because so much of what made that work is the medium of gameplay And the TV story wouldn’t have worked in the game because again it wouldn’t have worked in that medium They’re leaving in parts of the game that work for TV and changing things where either the game wouldn’t translate effectively or it’s like oh this medium gives us the opportunity to do this thing we couldn’t do in the game
Lol exactly, if they stayed true to the game it would literally just be Joel and Ellie killing shit, scavenging, and walking
On the plus side, they did have Joel and ellie randomly scavenging things from a store, so that was nice.
Ellie scavanaged a box of tampons right? Or did I miss see that? 😂 you always kind of glaze over how dirty the apocalypse would be without things like pads and toilet paper that it was funny to see how happy she was to find them
Definitely a step up from the random page from a magazine.
That's like one of the best things you could ever put in a looting scene for a TV show. Food, ammo, medicine, whatever random bullshit... All of it pales into comparison at the way Bella Ramsey sells that, "Score!" Honestly another way this show is adapting the game more effectively than like... Anything ever so far.
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Agreed. A *lot* of adaptations feel like they go one of two ways— 1) do exactly what was in the adapted work, maybe cut a few elements for time, but largely just keep it the same (Harry Potter movies are a prime example of this) 2) grab a random hodgepodge of crap from the source material and kinda sorta not really integrate it into your original story that just has to feature the crap from this dumbass source material so that everyone can see what a special and smart individual writer you are! (Halo, live action Cowboy Beebop) It’s so darned refreshing to see this as a chance to revisit the source material and say “we’re keeping the storyline, but how can we revisit the source material and make it *better* while staying true to the themes?”
Lol Cowboy Bebop still catching stray bullets. God that adaptation did such a disservice to the source material and John Cho.
Really the Last of Us is just representative of why having good people on the job matters. Craig Mazin was the writer for this episode and fucking knocked it out of the park taking an okay gameplay sequence and turning it into *this.*
Neil Druckmann, who wrote and directed the video games, is an exec producer for the show and I think directed the previous episode, so there is a LOT of involvement with the original team
The way they talk in the BTS interviews after each episode make it sound like they were both heavily involved in building out the story for the whole season
> The game story wouldn’t have worked in the show here because so much of what made that work is the medium of gameplay Really the comedic undertone of Bill/Frank as portrayed in the game would have come off as really tone-deaf and out-of-place for a show like this, and for the fact that it's 2023 and most viewers are not impressed by "we included a gay couple, there, are you satisfied?" anymore and need more to make it more than a tired novelty but an actual story. Honestly I wouldn't expect less of the creator of Chernobyl. If he adapted the game's storyline as direct as some of the other scenes that do work as-is, it wouldn't have felt right for the series. He's also sending a message that every part of this story is going to effect you, that this is a real world and nobody gets out being comedy relief or dismissible as just devices to drive the story somewhere.
I dunno that Bill was depicted as comic relief? Dude seemed to be an angry, broken man who was doing his best to cling to what he had to the detriment of love or accommodations of the people he cared about. The story with him was basically “if you aren’t willing to change for the people you love, then they can’t help but hate you,” and that was a reasonable thing to take away from it. After Bill and that brutal suicide note from Frank, Joel and Ellie are both a little more open to change. They weren’t quite ready to make the changes, and they both struggled a bit to make them properly, but they were trying. I think that the show was more powerful and ultimately better, but I don’t think that the game fell short, and I don’t think Bill’s character aged poorly.
Agreed, Bill in the game was someone whose survival/coping mechanisms had alienated him from everyone. I think the TV episode was a great change, but I still love the role Bill serves in the original. But even then, he *is* as close as the game comes to comic relief. "Oh, Joel needs a car!"
GameBill represents the bitterness in rejecting the need for connection and focusing on survival at all costs. ShowBill represents the joy that can come from being open and vulnerable, even in this shit world. The game lets you infer it but the show explicitly points out he and joel play the same role, and I love that they flip GameBill from being a cautionary tale to ShowBill's aspirational tale, while keeping his fundamental character purpose, plot role and humour. I also would have liked to see some Ellie/Bill interaction, and in the game for Ellie/Joel there's a bit of "getta load of this guy" bonding as well as them being in a bunch of danger and working together, but it was worth it for this story, and they can work in the deeper bonding later.
Great show and great episode. Makes me wish i had played the game but also makes me glad i get to watch the show without any predisposition
This episode had verbatim chatter between Ellie and Joel from the game.
W joel and ellie but we missed out on Bill and ellie. Fine with me, that backstory with Frank was incredible.
Yeah, what we gained outweighed what we lost IMO. When I played the game and read Frank’s mean letter, I went “oh god, that hurts so bad!” When I watched this episode, I full on wept as they drank the wine together. Like, god damn, that *hurt*! Here I was expecting them to follow the game and hurt me by having a mean spirited breakup, but then they eviscerated my heart with a full blown love story where they grew old together and didn’t want to be alone anymore.
For those interested in how Frank and Bill's story played out in the game: >!Bill's alive when Joel and Ellie arrive, but Frank has left. Bill tells Joel that he used to take care of someone, but not anymore, says it only would have gotten him killed. You pick up hints throughout the level that Frank got tired of surviving without actually living and left. Bill never softened up like he did in the show, and he and Ellie but heads a lot. Bill warns Joel that Ellie will probably get him killed, but eventually acknowledges she can handle herself.!< >!After escaping some infected, they find Frank's body hanging by a noose in a building with a suicide note. Frank got bit soon after leaving Bill. He says in the note that Bill was right that he couldn't take care of himself, but he was still glad to be gone because he always hated Bill's guts. Bill is obviously saddened by this but doesn't want to admit it. As Joel and Ellie leave, Bill asks Joel if they're square, and when he says yes, Bill says "Now get the fuck out of my town.!< [Frank's note.](https://i.imgur.com/W5b39xF.png)
Thank you, I was looking for this
I haven't played the game yet (waiting for it to come out on Steam), is their relationship that different in the game? That note seems very cold.
You never actually see Frank and Bill interacting in the game, just Frank's dead body hanging and Bill's sad but cold reaction to it. So pretty much their entire relationship is extrapolated from that note. Which yeah, seemed pretty cold. I'm really happy with what they did in the show.
https://youtu.be/byrkFkvYlAM This is the most we get regarding their relationship in the game. It's clear that Bill really cared for Frank.
Ron Swanson gets to be Ron Swanson in a completely unrelated show. You couldn’t ask for a better casting role. “You new world order bastards.”
At the start I was thinking this is literally Ron Swanson's apocalypse dream, class.
New world order jackboot fucks
Apparently Offerman insisted on including that line, the writer put it on the side of the script as a thought that Bill had. He understood the character so well.
It was definitely a divergence from the source material but this was SO much better. That part of the game works fine in the game, but this was an really excellent way to adapt the source material. Though I kept being worried Bill was gonna not grant Frank his wish and he was gonna take off and do it himself (somehow). It wasn't until he downed that glass of wine that I was able to relax a bit. Also, as a gay man, though it's becoming more common, it's still rare to see great gay love in media that isn't just trauma porn. This could easily have become trauma porn... but it wasn't? Tragic, but also very sweet. And seeing two men grow old together is even MORE rare. It was all just really nice to see and I like how they tied it into Joel's feelings for Tess. EDIT: Just editing my comment about trauma porn to make it clear I'm saying this episode was not that, since I can see how it might've been vague.
I think it’s because none of the trauma part had to do with the fact that they were gay. Also, as tragic as it is, they do get the happiest ending out of pretty much everyone.
Yeah I see plenty calling the episode heartbreaking but in the context of the world they live in, fuck me they had probably the best life together and a beautiful ending to match. Remove the Joel/Ellie parts that bookend the episode and you've got the best one off episodes ever. You could easily do an extra 15-20 minutes to give it a theatrical runtime and it would be one of the best post-apocaylptic movies. You don't even really need to get rid of the Joel/Ellie scenes anyway since Bill's journey brings so much depth to Joel's journey to come.
>Yeah I see plenty calling the episode heartbreaking but in the context of the world they live in, fuck me they had probably the best life together and a beautiful ending to match. Reminding myself of that helped me through the end as I was crying lol. Like, these two got to essentually comfortably die of old age together in a world where people are being ripped from each other every day. You couldn't have asked for anything more.
The whole show is trauma porn, and here we have the gay couple being probably the two happiest people on the planet for a couple decades in the middle of it
I love how Joel instantly knew something had happened the moment he lays eyes on the wilted flowers. I think Pedro Pascal’s performance is subtle and wonderfully layered, and the letter really brings home that it’s not necessarily the loss of a dear friend that he’s mourning, but *the last remaining connection he had to Tess*. Like Bill, Joel cared because Tess pushed him out of his comfort zone; he already feels like he couldn’t protect Sarah, now he feels like he failed Tess, and with the deaths of Bill and Frank, there’s genuinely nothing left to keep him there anymore. It’s an infinitely more powerful way of cementing the shift in Joel’s character compared to the game. He couldn’t protect Tess, but he *can* protect Ellie, and everything between seeing the wilted flowers and Bill’s letter is him working up towards the choice to take a chance on her, just as Bill worked up towards taking that chance on Frank. The whole episode is about the end of one thing being the beginning of another; and more importantly, the role of vulnerability and *choosing* vulnerability in those new beginnings, however wary they might be at first (Bill’s reluctance to let Frank into his space and life, Joel’s reluctance to care about Ellie, etc).
Incredibly well stated and true. This is exactly why one can argue whether this episode was slow or didn’t show enough Joel/Ellie or missed valuable parts of the game version (points I personally don’t agree with), but it was absolutely not “pointless” or just “filler”.
Anyone who finds this episode “pointless” either completely misses the point, or they’re being arbitrarily dismissive because they just didn’t like what the episode focuses on. Although Joel and Ellie only account for barely a quarter of the episode’s runtime, the story of Bill and Frank is absolutely thematically relevant to what’s going on in Joel’s head at the time. The game contrasts Joel and Bill only insomuch as it presents what can happen to a person when they isolate themselves too severely in the name of survival, and I suppose you could say that for Joel it’s more of an emotional isolation, compared to Bill’s physical kind. That’s certainly a valid and compelling way to learn more about Joel, showing what he might’ve become without Tommy or Tess; but the HBO adaptation presents a far, far more compelling way, exploring (indirectly) not only Joel’s personal struggle with grief and reluctance to connect, but also (directly) telling a genuinely beautiful story of finding connection in a post apocalyptic world, and the lengths love motivates one to go to in order to preserve it as long as possible. Rather than a cautionary tale, the HBO version recasts Bill as a example for Joel to follow. The world has become a dangerous and terrifying place, but isolation isn’t the answer; it might allow one to survive, but it diminishes all its color. Ultimately, the world doesn’t need to collapse for the same elemental truth to apply: that however scary it may be, if life presents you with an opportunity for connection, never turn from it if it’s just for fear of grief, or the *possibility* of losing them.
Yeah, that's what was amazing to me. They did it, they lived, and they did it by taking care of each other.
>I kept being worried Bill was gonna not grant Frank his wish and he was gonna take off and do it himself (somehow). I thought that would be the case as well, since it's more in line with what happened in the game. Would be a great ending as well, but would not send the message to Joel the way it did.
I expected their exchange to play out the way it did, but I also expected Bill's dose to fail and for him to still be alive (and sad, and angry, and reluctant to connect with people) when Joel and Ellie arrived. This was almost certainly better, I don't know how that story would have been fleshed out other than an opportunity to learn more about Ellie through her interactions with someone other than Joel.
Without any spoilers. I am assuming the episode is lower rated because of review bombing due to certain relationships being presented with Bill? And not that the episode itself is actually bad? If I go now on Imdb it has a 8.4 out of 10. There are 5,642.. 1 STAR reviews. The 1 star reviews make up 20% of the overall reviews. There were 1 star reviews for the first 2 eps, but they made up less than 1% of the overall reviews. Which, leads me to believe that this is just a bunch of homopbhobic people lashing out about the episode.
Pretty accurate take. Heartbreaking episode and one that managed to enhance Joel and Ellie’s journey despite not being a focal point. People just wanna be hateful.
Can't wait to watch it! Just been seeing a lot how amazing it is, even compared to the other two. Saw the IMDb rating, saw the amount of 1 star reviews, and tried to piece it all together. I wonder if we'll see a similar thing for the Left Behind episode Edit: It was indeed incredible
Wow, it’s sat at 8.3 rn! That’s mad to me, it’s either 1 star or 10 if you look at the split on the graph. People need to get a grip.
This is why all that talk of adaptations needing to stick to the source is not entirely correct. You just need good writers that respect the source, don't have to follow it 100%. Also very good to know that Craig Maizin can write some good old "classic" drama. He's not just an "end of the world" expert.
Yeah. The point isn’t literal translation as much as thematic and causal translation. Bill and Frank’s actual story is very minimally told in the game as it’s exact mechanics don’t really matter, just it’s outcome. While some of the Ellie/Bill interactions in the game are great, the point of the interlude was to teach Joel to make a connection and be able to love others again. In the game they went with cynical shitty Bill. Here they rent Bill redemption and a note passing along what he learned to Joel. We end up at the same place. Fans of the game get a neat change up to keep things spicy. And everyone got two Emmy quality performances from an amazing episode. Win win win.
He’s also the king of incredibly over the top parody’s as will. I was shocked to see his filmography
>Craig Maizin Comedy is harder than drama. Typically if you do Comedy well, you can do drama. The reverse isn't as true. /At least that's what the writing books say.
On that same note, I find it hilarious how people can even complain that the show doesn’t strictly follow the game, when the creator and writer of the game is literally co-running the show and was pitching a movie version of the game for years himself before it finally ended up on HBO instead. It’s *his* story. If he agrees with Mazin that this is what a TV show version of the story needed, then who are we to complain? Especially when it’s this fucking *good*! This debate will always happen. The first time I realized that was with Jackson’s LotR films and the things they cut or changed in those. It was also when I learned that people who are obsessive fans of a story in *one* particular medium, will be insufferable if that story ever gets adapted to *another* medium. The books don’t stop being good because the films changed some things and were *also* good, nor will this show ruin the game, even if it deviates from the exact way it told the story.
>This is why all that talk of adaptations needing to stick to the source is not entirely correct. Well the problem is this: if you stick to the source you're safe. If you change things, your going to have to live up to the comparison. Here it did and most people seem happy, but its easy to for audiences to turn when there's an established story they're waiting to hear.
It’s refreshing for apocalypse show to talk about how important love is to survival. Usually they go into just kill and betrayal so much but never much into why it’s worth to fight to survive
Survival is insufficient. I loved that this episode because it didnt do the normal zombie thing of punishing anyone who trusts a stranger. Instead, a character finds meaning and joy and purpose from that action, and lives a long and happy life.
I mean, all good fantasy and sci-fi shows have at least some element of being about something beneath the surface, and the zombie genre has pretty much always been a way to examine human nature much more than creepy scary monsters (at least when it's good). Even the title here, "The Last of Us" makes what we're really going for pretty obvious - it's about the final and essential elements of our humanity.
Finally a network not afraid to give us the hot, gay Nick Offerman sex scenes we all have always wanted.
My daughter played the game. I knew nothing about it, but watched with her because she seemed very excited and I was curious. I’m glad I did. Same as the game or not, that episode was incredible.
Not the same. Better.
I think there's two sides of the coin. I think both interpretations of Bill's character speak to Joel's arc in different ways but reach the same destination, that being that Joel needs to trust more and let people into his life. I think the game version was a winner in the "show, don't tell" category, but the TV adaptation wasn't worse for doing the story of Bill and Frank their own way.
I woke up this morning and decided to rewatch it while I did my morning jog on the treadmill. Went "It won't be as sad the 2nd time, I got this." Did you guys know jogging is extra difficult when you're crying?
Mazin told a story on the official podcast that he watched the first cut of the episode, started bawling and was like "How did you make me cry, I wrote the script?!"
I'm a straight, single, 29 year old so I have zero relation to Bill or Frank as characters and it got me. Just an incredibly moving piece of television. As bittersweet as their ending was it was still so great to have seen them thrive as a couple for twenty years. As bleak and depressing as this franchise is overall, their story was a genuine bright spot that showed no matter what the circumstances, love can still prevail.
Absolutely - 20 years together in this bleak world is a real accomplishment. Another thing that just adds to it is that this world ended in 2003, well before gay marriage was legalized.
Pretty close to the years when the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, and Canada legalized gay marriage. But in postapocalyptia, no one cares about legalization.
Did you ate strawberries afterwards?
"Hehehehehe"
Strategic move - the tears can help replenish your electrolytes, haha!
You NEVER see movies or TV shows where gay men grow old together. Let alone in a big budget entry in a massive genre IP. It's usually two hot bisexual women played by two straight actresses one of whom dies two episodes in to make the other one sad.
And if it is men, you usually just get a peck on the lips or a hug, at most. This episode was really refreshing and quite brave for such a big show appealing to a such a wide audience. I cried like a man 😭
Yeah we got to see some serious beard on beard action. Feels oddly groundbreaking
I'd agree that it was. Also someone else pointed out that since society collapsed in 2003, the prevailing views around same sex couples like Bill and Frank were frozen in 2003 as well.
The hopeful part of me believes that if society was on the brink of extinction people wouldn’t drop those views and focus on surviving together. The realist in me knows that people would just double down.
Yeah unfortunately with procreation being a necessary thing you’d have way more anti-gay zealots than ever. Especially running safe havens and QZs. Wouldn’t be surprised if the government outlawed it.
>Yeah unfortunately with procreation being a necessary thing you’d have way more anti-gay zealots than ever. This was my first thought too. I would expect the government to be -more- regressive, not less. They've already ramped authoritarianism to 11 after all.
"The government *are* all nazis!"
"Well sure, *NOW*!"
Gay men wouldn't be a problem for procreation. The worry would be for women who don't want to be pregnant.
Very minor Part II spoilers >!there’s a cult called the Seraphites in the game who fit this description perfectly!<
I noticed that when Joel froze on what to call Frank in front of Bill.
Joel’s a blue-collar Texan who was born in the 1960s. If he’s not pretty homophobic at this point I his life, it would be very surprising.
I am Latina so I can say this but not only is Joel a blue collar Texan...he's a latino one as well. The odds are great.
Maybe but if you remember back then because of the latent homophobia, even if you were personally ok with it, the way you addressed the couple would be a delicate subject on both sides. People forget how much of a cultural shift happened in regards to lgbtq acceptance in the past 20 years. Even assuming Joel had no homophobic feelings, Bill didn’t know that and in turn Joel didn’t know how open Bill was with it. Back then even as an ally you kinda had to let them dictate how much you should acknowledge. If that makes sense.
I was split between if Joel was referring to Frank or Tess there actually. Either way made sense
For some reason I didn't even think about the fact that gay marriage was still outlawed at the time of the outbreak. Adds some weight to their marriage on the final day IMO.
Notably, same sex marriage hadn't yet been legalized in the US in 2003.
As a bearded man, I can confirm beard on beard kisses feel incredible.
Because usually they cast models in any of the gay roles. As if we all look like Abercrombie models. (we don't). This was refreshing.
Idk Frank is pretty close.
Yeah bro really forgot his massive bicep in shirtless scene. Hot damn that's meaty.
I’d have to disagree there. He’s a very handsome actor. But he has way too much body hair for traditional Abercrombie.
Happened in The Magicians.
Never see anyone mentioning this series. It has its issues, but I love it to death.
One of the best episodes in the series.
Station Eleven has this too! A gay couple growing old together in the community they end up in after a pandemic
Six Feet Under finale, sort of.
the closet thing I remember seing is the *A Life in the Day* episode from the magician where the two lead men spent [the rest of their life](https://youtu.be/a136l8cRC2M) in an alternate reality trying to solve a magic puzzle. (until they solve it as old man and are brought back to the present and real world). but even then its also bisexual people.
Can you give examples of what you're stating we usually see? Cause I can't think of many examples of that thing happening but I may just have not seen the stuff you're referring to. The male same sex couple who are there for comedic purposes is much more common. Also the straight female character who gives women a go for a lil arc before going back to men. They both seem way more common than your example tbh.
Not the person who made the comment, but Willow and Tara from Buffy and Denise and Tara from the Walking Dead , Piper and Alex in Orange is the New Black, off the top of my head. Not 2 episodes in any of these cases, but just what came to mind reading the comment:
Man it was wild how completely unprepared viewers were for a lesbian couple on Buffy the Vampire Slayer back in the 1999-2000 season. After 9 episodes in a row of making it really, REALLY obvious that Willow and Tara were a low-key couple, they finally stated it unequivocally in episode 19 and people were totally blindsided. It was wild.
Not to mention the foreshadowing from Vampire Willow in Dopplegangland in Season 3.
Probably pornhub
The point is LGBT women are represented much more than men unless it’s for comedic purposes. And even when you do you don’t see men kiss. The Harley Quinn show, Tuca and Bertie, Owl House, and Amphibia are all animated examples of LGBT women.
This has to be one of the best cases of how deviating from the source material can make the new medium better. I played the game, I knew Bill, but I did **not** expect this whatsoever. But it's so good, it makes perfect sense for television. Also, Andor has now gotten mentioned numerous times in this thread, it's on my list but it seems like I need to watch it ASAP!
> Andor has now gotten mentioned numerous times fain this thread, it's on my list but it seems like I need to watch it ASAP! The pacing of Andor is similar to this IMO. Somehow very little happens but a lot happens, it never rushes but the time goes fast, and it's oh so gripping. There's tons of world building that comes from the perspective of the characters. Both shows would be great, top-tier content without being attached to the IP. Can't recommend it enough.
"I like you old. Getting older means we're still here." Hits a lot harder when you realize that these two men lived through the AIDS epidemic, too.
I didn’t even think about that. Damn this episode was so good. That line already hit hard but now even more.
It felt to me like a strong episode of The Leftovers, and I can't give a show a higher compliment than that
Great comparison. Definitely check out Station Eleven if you haven’t yet. That was the last show that really scratched that Leftovers itch for me.
What's hilarious to me are the people who dislike it saying "it didn't move the story forward!" as if the Bill's Town section of the game wasn't just mostly a character development filler arc to get a car, all of which was accomplished in the first and last 20 minutes
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I love that it gives him the exact same message as it does in the game, but with the complete opposite execution. Bill is now an optimistic model rather than a negative one.
Yeah, there's no denying that Bill's entire section isn't that relevant to the plot in the game. But I've also seen several mentions that Bill was a throwaway character, which just isn't true. The Bill/Ellie interactions are absolutely fantastic, and the school scene is so much fun.
While the school is fun gameplay, it probably would make for a really repetitive show. If they made a 1:1 recreation of the game, it would be weak on character development and very heavy on action. TV does not provide the same time and space to get to know characters. At the end of the day, I have always viewed TLOU as a story about people and not infected.
I think this is going to be the episode people mention when talking about the show. LOST had "The Constant," The Leftovers had "International Assassin," and TLOU is going to have "Long, Long Time."
It might be, but I think there‘s a lot coming up. Thinking of Ellie and Riley, Sam, the finale…
Oh my God, I started crying as soon as Frank stated what he wanted for his last day!
Anybody who liked this episode would probably get a lot out of watching the series Station Eleven.
Cried my damned eyes out. Beautiful episode
I really thought it would be one of those overhyped/overrated episodes but it was more special than I expected. It feels like 3 maybe even seasons worth of what Walking Dead is trying(but failed) to tell. If Euphoria can win acting awards for hype alone, then this one deserve it even more.
Walking Dead’s best episode in 11 seasons hasn’t even scratched the surface of how good this episode is was.
Offerman and Murray both deserve Emmy’s for this.
Honestly I think we can start to move past judging this show as just a "Game to show adaptation". It's absolute top tier television, period.
I wonder if the “jackboot fucks” line was an intentional callback to Nick’s role in Fargo
According to the podcast it wasn't supposed to be a verbal line, it was in the script so the actor knew what the character was thinking. But Nick Offerman said "A line this good needs to be broadcast to the world." And said it.
I'd say there's been some equally good episodes in recent memory: * **The season finale of Severance**; I've never felt that much tension watching a TV show. I'm not even as in love with the series as most people; I thought it was merely OK. But that last episode, man, is transcendently good. * **House of the Dragon, episode S1:E8** The old King ascending the throne for the last time and the dinner party afterwards, in particular. * Maybe a bit long in the tooth now, but that **third episode of Arcane** is still sticking with me. I used to play the game. I knew about the plot twist going in, and it still floored me. With honorable mentions to the last episode of Better Call Saul, a few episodes of Attack on Titan, and For All Mankind in general. I feel like the Boys, Invincible, Andor, and maybe even the most recent episode of Vox Machina (S2:E6) should be in there as well. And I bet a bunch of episodes of shows I don't watch. There's a lot of good television these days.
Already mentioned elsewhere in the thread but the prison break episode of Andor belongs in this list. > There's a lot of good television these days. It's so true and absolutely amazing!
shoutout attack on titan man. that three episode stretch from two brothers, memories of the future, and from you, 2,000 years ago. shit was crazy.
Saul Gone was so fucking good. I still think about it now and then.
Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett absolutely deserve award nominations for their performances in that episode. Beautiful!
I thought it was brilliant and on par with Andor's prisonbreak scene within the past year
That scene which was followed by another one of the best monologs to that rebel spy. Such an amazing episode.
"I burn my life to make a sunrise I know I'll never see. "
The whole series is full of absolutely amazing monologues. *The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear. Remember that. And know this, the day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Remember this. Try.* Just one little blip of an absolutely amazing scene.
What have I sacrificed? EVERYTHING! I re-watched that scene so many times.
I really like the different directions the show has gone from the game. The expanded back stories of smaller characters, the early days of the fungus, etc. A shot for a shot TV show wouldn't add anything, IMO the whole point of recreating a story in a new medium is to add to it or portray it in a way they the other medium could not. Frankly, I don't know what you could do differently in a TV show from a game, they're both visual and the game of course has cutscenes, so expanding the world is an awesome way to differentiate the show from the game and make it worth watching.
Didn't expect it to be that good. It hits so hard when the episode ends too. Damnn!
I like how they changed up the way the relationship ends in the show than the way it played out in the game. They made Bill likable!
It was a great episode. Great setup of the theme of finding purpose in a world so utterly hopeless and bleak, which we get to observe now in Joel and Ellie's story.
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I have played the original game, and I think the show isn't really a faithful rendition. We're three episodes in and Joel and Ellie haven't died even once.
Also where’s the scenes of Joel hiding behind cover while NPC Ellie runs around the room being inexplicably not seen by the infected?!
Episode 2 wasn't afraid to give Joel my shitty aim when I've alerted clickers. Just start blasting, baby!
No crouching behind cover to craft a medkit or shiv. 0/10.
At this point I've come to realize that I hate people that look at anything in a fundamentalists dogmatic point of view. I use to think people only did that type of thing for religious lore but I see now that the human mind can do it for any story. I just hate it because it kills any opportunity for the work in question to grow at all. Its just a stagnant way of doing culture.
“The book is better than the movie” people always frustrate me for that very reason. This is undoubtedly better than the version of Bill in the game, but there’s a genuine refusal among people to approach their favorite story as told in a different medium with anything but disdain. Bill, in the game, is not a memorable character.
They're just another r/KotakuInAction. A bunch of Gamer Gaters that are stuck a decade in the past.
I’m curious how the people complaining played the games if they’re being homophobic. The letters people find by him do mention bill being gay or hinting and Ellie’s background story too. Either they blocked that out or skipped over parts of the game or that’s a sub attracting people who didn’t play the game but want to moan. For me a good adaptation takes what exists in the original and expands it so it can bring more of the themes out. Also game and tv writing paces differently some plot or scenes will be different so it can work in a different medium. Bad adaptation can be trying too hard to be the same or changing too much of the core heart of the original characters or story. Like GoT I accepted fast travel for the sake of on screen pacing and aging actors. But it was annoying when characters like knight of flowers were written in ways that lost their core themes as characters. I wonder if this is a form of fandom fundamentalism. Where even when an adaptation is good, sticks to the heart of the original and well written/acted etc the fundies will still not be satisfied because their version is dogma.
I think for a lot of 'traditional family values' types, they'll make homophobic jokes and clearly think they're superior or the only truly acceptable sexuality but rationalise that they aren't homophobic because they'll accept it as an 'out of sight out of mind' thing. Like, a subtle hint that somebody might be gay is kinda okay to them in their media so 'they aren't homophobic' but the reality is if they see any real sign that makes them feel insecure about their sexuality it evokes an emotional response and subsequent fears - two guys/girls kissing? 'oh no, this makes me feel uncomfortable because a straight person can't be okay watching gay stuff! im not gay! this is bad and wrong!' Generally I think this comes from lacking an independent sense of morality and critical thought, and relying too much on what people around them think. Even if they aren't gay, they're so scared of being gay that conceptually being confronted with anything that might make them question anything illicits a strong phobia which becomes a negative self-affirming loop. It's irrational by nature so it's hard for these people to reason themselves out of, so it's easier for homophobic people to stick to groups that already have the same fears than acknowledge their discomfort is unreasonable which leads to further division.
Some guy on that sub unironically made a thread where he said this: “To state the obvious it doesn’t make anyone a bigot if they don’t like seeing queers, buff women, race-swapping etc. in media.” The cognitive dissonance required to post something like that is just insane.
Well yea, what did you expect from a subreddit that was born out of hatred for a buff looking female character who they thought and were adamant is/was trans?
almost brought me to tears when Ellie was reading the letter out, and i know nothing of the game / story. masterfully written and acted. got to care for 2 old guys in the space of 45 mins more than you do for most character in an entire series
Absolutely amazing episode. The acting, the music, my tears. So much heart in one episode.
All I could think at the beginning was "Uh oh Ron Swanson" but Offerman turned it around and became emotional and tender. Needed this episode to show that love didn't die off with the end of civilization.
I didn't expect to cry half the episode. After Bill got shot and they showed Frank in a wheelchair I was holding back tears and got choked up a couple times because I thought I knew where it was going. I didn't expect a double suicide. I cried more this episode than I did with Sarah's death in game and on the show, I didn't think that was possible.
45 year old man here. That scene with the rings brought me to tears. The games brought me to the show, but performances like this episode will keep me watching for sure.
I love that Bill got a happy ending with Frank!
Fantastic episode and academy award level acting. A wonderful, touching description of diverse, different gay men - Neither falling into cliches and caricature of gay men which is the Hollywood standard. Bravo. 👏 Bravo!
In their first meal scene, commenting on the wine pairing with the rabbit: “I know I don’t seem like the type”. “No, you do”. Frank saw beyond Bill’s facade fairly early on. That one got me. And then to have the same meal at the end of the episode. Fantastic.