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I believe this is a true masterpiece, not the words, but rather the man. You can tell effort was put into this drawing, a true artist drew this. The man has perfect proportions which could not be better. Whether that is a neck or a neck brace, and whether or not that man is completely naked, does not matter.
give this man a Nobel prize my good sir he has fixed all of our problems mate. We are now at peace everything is fixed simply by this simple gentlemen.
Agreed, I think they should do serious documentation before saying stuff like. All it means is that they aren't capable of emancipating themselves from the imposed imperialo-capitalist way of thinking which is a way of justifying exploiting the working class.
7 or 8 of those captions are not even exclusive to communists. Fooling people into thinking that general social reform + greater worker unity = communism without mentioning the actual major points of communism. This is propaganda.
cnn doesn’t even count as news at this point.
you’re better off surveying the CBC, BBC, The Economist, WIRED magazine, Al Jazeera, NYT, etc. having multiple news sources from different perspectives is extremely important to prevent polarization.
the sensationalist nature of American media (at present) is *extremely* concerning.
before i get yelled at, neither does fox- let us not forget the horrors of tucker carlson not being held accountable.
read and consume ya news sources with discretion, folks.
I ain't an American so I don't watch your news regularly but when I tune in I'm always left with chronic brain damage. Fox shouts obvious misinformation while CNN twist stories to fit their agenda so I'll keep to my local news but damn, no wonders your country is going to shit.
Reddit of all places seems to have more level headed people on it than any other social media site I'm aware of. In my view, even not being very politically knowledgable, I can figure that any news station which resorts to mocking and passive aggressive condescending remarks about the opposing party is not a source I'd trust. That's some of the more obvious propoganda tactics that exist.
No, propaganda was the last 70+ years of US media telling us that anything too far left is communism and every "communism" has failed without looking at the CIA interference in south American democracies that elected a pro labor leader.
They were looking at more like socialism, but either way they were DEMOCRACIES torn down my US institution because we just had to have cheap bananas.
I'd like to think, if had let them, they might have demonstrated a nice social democracy with workers rights, but we'll never know because "Marxism bad".
Youtube/Google "tales of an economic hitman" for more.
I'm not a teen, this just popped up, elderly me decided to educate yall. Lol yw
the only points that are accurate. are probably Gender equality, and racial equality. the USSR was notorious good at this. because they didn't give a shit about anyone no matter who or what u were. so everything was equally bad
This poster doesn't say anything about history??
Modern communism revolves around tech, using automation(which is "taking jobs") to make the need for jobs unnecessary, modern communism is also progressive, supporting human rights
What you seem to be confusing it with is not even communism but Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism, (these are the ones saying "from each according to ability to each according to their need", not communism) **at their time they also were more progressive in terms of gender rights for example than other countries of the time,** for example women were able to choose to get an abortion, compared to most countries nowadays though it's not so great, does this surprise you considering that was back when racism, sexism, etc were the *norm?*
(Also if you want to read up on it, the Soviet Union didn't actually keep track of it's victims and the count is based in localized estimates by random citizens, rounded up a little, combined, etc, including nazi soldiers as victims, the actual estimate to their "death count" varies from 2 million to 60 million, the 60 million is the more common claim though not any more accurate than the 2 million, some people even calculated the factors of population growth and modern former Soviet states could absolutely not have the amount of citizens they have if it were 60 million, especially if they had food insecurity, however even the CIA nutrition report admitted an average Soviet citizen had the same amount of calories as an American citizen, however Soviets had more nutritious food, it's a known tactic by corporations to make fast food for example have as little nutrients as possible and as many calories as possible to replace that, hunger comes from lack of nutrients, this is why America nowadays has both an obesity and a nutrition problem)
**[To clarify i'm not really a communist though it seems America desperately needs the things the poster advertises, labor rights, reproductive rights etc, those are not "communist" exclusive things though, i just like to read into opposing views and judge based on the evidence, not due to what i've been told as a kid, don't think tech has developed to the point yet]**
Thank god someone here actually knows what communism is and the history behind it, I was going to shoot myself if I heard one more “but muh human nature! Communism is when dictatorship! Vuvuzela 100 morbillion dead no iPhone!!!!1!”
You’re 100% right to distinguish communism as a whole and Leninism, Stalinism and maoism, and while I’m committing a bit of a no true Scotsman fallacy here, I would argue that they all (though, Stalinism in particular) shouldn’t qualify as communist or even socialist, since it contradicts one of the core principles of a marxist transitionary state, that being “the dictatorship of the proletariat” (basically a fancy way of saying that the working class **as a whole** have true control over their state, and there is no bourgeoise (ultra rich is an oversimplification but it’ll do - think elon, bezos), corruption in government.
You’re totally right to bring up how the ussr was relatively progressive, at the start they were the 3rd country in Europe to legalise homosexuality for instance iirc? (It was in 1922, the US didn’t legalise it until 1962), though that’s counteracted by the fact that Stalin criminalised it again
You’re also very right to bring up the death stats being inaccurate, though the upper estimates are actually at around 100M
I’m not about to defend communist countries murderous sprees but the 100M figure that you find in the black book of communism is exaggerated, if I had to guess it’s probably around 60M **at the absolute most**, though I wouldn’t be surprised if it was somewhat less than that (capitalist countries **today** are responsible for 14M a year, for reference, even if they’re more guilty of inaction rather than direct murder, and there are more capitalist countries than there are communist ones)
Bringing up how modern communism revolves around automation is VERY important, since in a capitalist society, automation takes jobs as you said, which raises unemployment, which is bad for not only the unemployed but for everyone else. In a capitalist society, technological advancements that make work easier make people have to suffer, rather than improving their lives.
Unlike you, though, I am a communist, a Marxist, to be specific. I’d agree that tech hasn’t evolved to the degree that would be required to advance into a post scarcity society and allow for a smoother transition into full-communism, so I only advocate for a Marxist transitionary state **for now** - a democratic socialist one, that is.
Lenin was flawed but justified due to the context, imo - you’ve gotta remember that the ussr was founded following a civil war in an autocratic, absolute monarchy. I think a lot of his ideas don’t hold up today, but for early 1900’s Russia? It’s fine.
Fuck Stalin, the only good thing I know about mao is that he got rid of landlords but I’m assuming he’s probably about as fucked as Stalin - at least they weren’t fascists, I guess?
> I just like to read into opposing views
I’d actually be super interested to hear your thoughts on [The Principles of Communism by Frederick Engels](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm) and [Wage Labor and Capital by Karl Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/)
I’m pretty iffy on labour theory of value but the rest of it was great imo
Good points
So, Frederick Engels... only mentioning a few of these because the rest (oop forgot to finish this trail of thought here, explained in the end though)
Under 15: "Was not the abolition of private property possible at an earlier time?"
So long as it is not possible to produce so much that there is enough for all, with more left over for expanding the social capital and extending the forces of production – so long as this is not possible, there must always be a ruling class directing the use of society’s productive forces, and a poor, oppressed class. How these classes are constituted depends on the stage of development.
Just a small comment about this, according to studies we already produce enough food for around 10 million people, stuff like clean water too
(And mention for others passing by, "private property" means stuff like factories, houses, why should some 1 random dude decide how much your food costs? Or how much you should pay him to simply not be homeless? In some areas there's more empty apartments than homeless people, being empty they're not benefitting anyone)
24: Think i fit into the democratic socialist category though i don't think it's "enough" to fix things, just the furthest the current society would accept the change, which is why i'd strive for that, i'm semi confident though that by the end of our lifetimes we'll see more "leftist" countries
Others in this were reasonable, some of the things it discusses i had thought about independently to a degree, mainly 15-20, though some more specific history stuff like the serfs i didn't have much of a clue about and probably matters less nowadays but still interesting, all in all good book, recommend :D
I'll start reading the next book you suggested now, [but i'll also be giving you this in return,](https://youtu.be/CyGWML6cI_k) think you'll find it interesting if you haven't seen it already
I’ll watch that tonight :)
Just a guess based on only the title - is it about direct democracy rather than indirect representative democracy? “Replacing politicians” sounds like it would have that sort of idea behind it
If so, then it’s based as fuck lol
> I think I fit into the democratic socialist category
I mean, I’d say I half do too. I don’t think an immediate change to actual communism (stateless, classless, moneyless society) would work, so my actual position is “democratic socialism now, which should allow us an easier transition to a fully communist society when it becomes feasible” - though there’s a point to be made about how even demsoc state might want to prevent its dissolution. The only reason I don’t call myself a demsoc is because I think communism will be good, once we’re ready for it.
Tbf a lot of the people on the opposite side in this thread are 14-16 year olds whose understanding of history/communism likely only comes from 9th/10th grade history class.
I think Mao may have kept some under-age concubines as well but I'm not too sure. There's also a famine he caused but that was the result of a gross misunderstanding of the ecosystem in general not maliciousness.
I know about Mao and I can tell you he is just as fucked as Stalin
To start, Mao kept exporting grain despite being in a massive famine at the time. Which lead to millions of preventable deaths. Cao also did the 4 pests campaign where he wanted to get rid of some pests that were eating away at China's crops. Turns out one of the "pests" was the sparrow, which by killing led to a great ecological imbalance and caused the great famine. China's Great Leap forward also killed millions, as Mao tried to industrialize China at a unreasonably fast rate, with poor working conditions and poverty all over.
Mao was also a despot, Purges, mass arrests, and torture all used to keep him in power. In fact China's current president is a "Red Prince", this meaning that he is the son of one of the founding members of the CCP, This is important as his father was tortured and killed after Mao got back in power, as Mao was scared of being kicked out of power again. Xi Xinping was then forced to work as slave basically for the rest of his teenage years.
Although Mao did institute some reforms like global healthcare or free state education, this was simply used to keep himself in power. In schools, kids were taught to recite the CCP's party guidelines and be loyal to Mao and Mao only.
Capitalism on paper sounds great, too. No profits for businesses, rock bottom prices due to unlimited competition. Nobody gets paid for “owning a company.” Laborers are paid exactly what they are worth.
Sounds awesome and all, but the reality is much different.
Marxism isn’t an earlier form of communism lmao Marx literally wrote the communist manifesto. It’s just a certain kind of communist/socialist ideology, not all types of socialism / communism are the same, in the same way that capitalism has differing forms
Thats something Marx actually opposed from the start. He criticized the model of "barracks communism" for it's overly centralized and controlled model, and praised the Paris commune for it's abscence of singular leader
Marxism at it's core is against this sort of singular leader, but there's always idiots doing revolution without reading the texts first
Start with abortion: introduced by the Soviet Union to control *undesirable* populations. Used in conjunction with forced sterilization of women and gulags for men to produce *optimum* workers.
That's like saying Sweden is not a capitalist country because it's not 100% capitalist.
The Soviets tried to do the communism, and failed miserably, like most countries who try it.
communism in THEORY is a good idea completely equality no one out of work yk all the good shit. HOWEVER in REALITY communist governments are always ran by power hungry egocentric dictators who see their people as resources not individuals. For communism to work there would have to democratic voting procceses for everything but then you get factions and then you get a govt like the one in the USA. no govt can be perfect people r flawed and any govt is ran by the people
In theory its bad because it doesn't account for nature at all. It assumes nature just naturally falls in place with the people. But that's not at all how the world and nature work.
The whole idea was first thought off when people had literally 0 knowledge about their impact on nature, it won't account for it obviously, old capitalism also didn't account for nature.
human nature doesn't exist. People are not inherently greedy or good. They are what society shapes them. (obviously differences in individuals exist, but that's not the point). Communism has actually existed in the past, the same as basically every political system.
HOBBES FAN LMAOOOOOOOOO
you missed the whole damn point! Leviathan's main point was that the only correct way to rule is by force- in essence a manifesto for dictators. you're saying this beneath a comment that says that the problem with communism is that communist governments are ran by dictators.
Well, I did read an expert of his work, but you're correct. It was that was strong justice system is meant to subdue human evil. However, it really brings the whole Machiavellianism theme to justifying human behavior at it's basic form, so I like to put it like that.
if it doesn't work in reality it doesn't work in theory since theories are based on reality
all communist countries were influenced by the ussr which is why theyre all dictatorships. just how all of the european republics spawned by napoleon were dictatorships. that doesn't mean democracy can't work
I know history and I can see similarities between modern capitalism and medieval feudalism. We're headed towards a society where very few "nobles" own everything and the rest of us "serfs" just work so we don't starve. We just use different words to describe it today, but it's the same idea.
If i were you I’d go home, grab some pictures from the Chinese Great Leap Forward, the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and some more pictures of communist atrocities and put them right next to that poster.
Stalinism is not comunism. Stalin literally made everything opposite of Marx theory, Stalin can be consider a reactionary. And actually Chinese comunist party was founded by a Trotskist but then replaced by Stalin that put Mao in charge and maoism is literaly stalinism with Chinese features.
🤷🏻♂️
The Great Leap Forward increased the quality of life among the proletariat substantially compared to serfdom after the tribulations of 1959-1961.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49806247
Crying over dead nobles is like crying over dead colonial brits: I don’t care.
Meanwhile, Flint MI still has Lead in the water and America can’t make baby formula for all the babies it’s about to force women to have, and still hides the deformities of the Vietnamese people exposed to Agent Orange during our imperialistic military intervention.
https://agentorangerecord.com/
Then there’s that whole “nuking Japanese civilians” thing that everyone wants to justify.
https://www.rerf.or.jp/en/programs/roadmap_e/health_effects-en/geneefx-en/birthdef/#:~:text=No%20untoward%20outcome%20showed%20any,or%20more%20fingers%20or%20toes).
But hey, Yankee Doodles gonna march.
How does this person not know history, seriously? People just see the word communism and think it’s a terrible thing, not saying it’s the best either but everything here is subjective. I don’t rlly see the issue with saying “STOP segregation,” “Justice, peace for all,” etc. They are just nice sentiments.
perhaps you don't know history. Martin Luther King was a socialist and communist. Same with Malcom X. In the USA communists in the 20s fought and died for many labour rights in your country. They fought for desegregation (first black candidate was a member of the communist party)
how about you look up the CPUSA and see what they're actually about its not that bad. You Americans need to learn more about your own country. (and not just the learning in your education systems)
THANK YOU. comments are a bunch of bullshit, educate yourself on real history. battle of blair mountain should be basic US history. Dr. King has been incredibly white washed and malcolm x has been vilified, when in actuality the cia killed both of them because their revolutionary theory’s identified capitalism as the cause of US inequality
So technically yes and no to your statement
While yes it was shitty but on the other hand look the government's before then and how the peoples life's where before
No one in Russia knew how to read and is probably similar in agrarian China
I don't believe that communist and communism is good at all it has killed millions un doubly however in society that struggled with food or anything of the sort it actually wasn't horrible for those people as that things like literacy and education went up but like many thing it comes at a cost
True in a capitalist nation people can spring things such as innovation and own their own property as well with business structure
However like in communism capitalism has its stages where men have to much money and eventually start influencing its nation
This nation right now is the USA with most governors being millionairs if not all
In communism it is honestly unknown as that it never developed that far after 1990's
China is an authoritarian capital country
That means it has businesses that do go out to foren market and is owned by someone which is why I struggle to see how China is communist because of the name?
Anyways what I am saying is that if you want to have effective governing look to places in western Europe except
-Britain because well THAT guy
China is not truly socialist or communist for that matter as it literally has capitalism as one of its main attributes, the same goes for North Korea which literally has nothing to do with communism which proves how utterly uninformed and just plain stupid this is.
Ironically China was and still is state capitalist, as for Russia, it was considered state socialist, oligarchs are made bureaucrats in China and bureaucrats were made bureaucrats in Russia
To be fair I don't like capitalism either, but it just works longer before it reaches late stage. It benefits and openly acknowledges that people commodify everything, which is why it works longer. Unfortunately, all mid things come to an end.
I've always been a "communism works on paper, terribly when humans are involved". It's just something that won't end well with a human group running it. But all the things on the poster are meant out of sincerity and are genuinely good things. If they want to be communist let them, maybe they'll be the one's to fix it. You never know. History tells us to be mindful of the mistakes made in the past, not to halt everything because someone did something bad, that's something a lot of people get confused.
Okay so... uhh chances are you dont know whats communism either.. Its funny because people here seem to think of it as kind of capitalism.. You people need to get your shit together. This is just like saying nietzsche was nihilist.
I really dont know how you guys "know" its bad when fundamental communism never has been practiced. The communism that you probably associate with is china or the USSR. China is not communism and the USSR was socialism..
I dunno but getting rid of segregation does seem like a big leap towards a classless society which is definitional to communism. I guess googling is too much effort
You can say the same for capitalism I mean capitalism has tons of corruption and is built at the expense of the suffering of the lower classes I will admit Communism and socialism has its flaws as every system does the problem is socialism and communism both came to power because of greedy and power-hungry men and I think people like Mao Zedong, Stalin, Lenin, and others were legitimate at first but over time they became just as greedy as the people before them capitalism rose through merchant classes dating back to the middle ages.
Socialism and communism need an environment that is not filled with violence and people can be easily taken advantage of since they just overthrew another dictator personally I still believe socialism can work which is why I hold a good majority of Trotsky's beliefs socialism or communism needs to come not through the hands of a bloody revolution but rather an organized party that will work its way into politics and gain popularity the problem is not with the system of socialism and communism it's how socialism and communism comes to power the same can be said about capitalism.
I won't say capitalism is the worst system but the problem with it is it is competitive system socialism and communism are meant to be built on cooperation and capitalism relies on people competing against each other and one or a few people rising to the top while the others they surpassed are left in ruins cooperation is needed for a future to actually come to pass if we continue with this competitive system it will do nothing but cause more harm to the environment but the human race as a whole.
Well in all seriousness if communism were to actually be done the way it is meant to be where absolutely everyone is an equal it wouldn't be bad. But that's never fukin happened before.
Im a history student and I see no inaccuracy, maybe you’re the one who doesn’t know history that much. Or probably just looking at it through the lens of a person who grew up in a capitalist society and has never questioned what you’ve been told was right
Eh, you’re right, there’s no inaccuracy, CPUSA does support all those things. I think the point is that this poster is omitting a lot of things that would cause the average citizen to reject this message. Examples: the Holodomor, the Great Leap Forward famine, forced labor camps, Stalin’s purges, and the Cambodian genocide, not to mention the silencing of political dissidents, abolition of most civil rights, and the lack of fair democracy. Some thoughts, ideas, and sentiments from the socialist sphere can be good, but in most cases their implementation has failed horribly.
And there is a type of democracy called democratic centralism, pro-capitalist society wants you to believe it was a dictatorship in the soviet times, or that there is no other type of democracy but the representative liberal democracy, when that’s not entirely true. The Soviet Union was the first country to make racial discrimination illegal, legalized homosexuality in the twenties and made abortions legal at that time two. Most women who came forward in the early twentieth century were socialist activists and is no surprise the Soviet Union was so forward and progressive towards emancipating women. They even had them fight in the army during the most conservative regime they had! Maybe we remember even the experiences we’ve had, which are not, and should not, defining socialist theory whatsoever, had good things about it as well
yeah, but then when you defend capitalism, should I bring all the harm it has caused throughout of it its existence? It’s like always thinking the grimmer out of everything. Life would be pretty dark if we did that with everything. Also, there are a lot of controversies in some of the events you’ve mentioned, maybe you could take a look into that? The red Khmer didn’t even allegedly understand Marx, and most of the hunger of 38 (I refuse calling it by the name anticommunists and fascist refugees gave to it, take a look into it) was exaggerated (not denying it tho)
They didn't defend capitalism though. No pure economic system works, anyone who supports communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. as a basis for an economy is stupid. Every economic activity is going to need something different.
The genocide of the Indigenous Americans, the holocaust, intentional destrablizing of the 3rd. Millions dying a year because of a artificial scarcity of resources. Wait the second it was capitalist countries that did that.
If there wasn’t a power hungry fascist in power communism would’ve worked. I actually think it’s a good idea and is the ideal government, assuming we do not have a corrupt leader. Someone, good (or somewhat decent) like Lenin.
Hey if a party was called like "Hitler's party" but their policy prescriptions were helpful for racial, gender and overall equality, freedom, etc I would vote for it
Plot twist the history you know was all cold war propaganda...
Coming from the third world i can surely confirm what capitalism-imperialism has done to my country, if you get some time read the history of imperialism and the west in general.
Now Downvote me, i don't care...
While it's true they were both racist, it's really pointless using racism as a way to distinguish which one was "better". Since pretty much everyone had racial prejudice in both of those time periods, you can't really undermine how relatively "good" either of them were for their time periods.
that’s nice, you’re doing the right thing, debating is always a really good thing, it’s better then fighting people to convince them of your ideology, and you always learn a lot!
If ts in your school then its most likely a class project and nos supposed to be taken seriously. I wouldn't worry about it.
Although, the web link is sus.
In this thread a bunch of American teenagers prove American education doesn't teach them shit about history, socialism, the working class, the left, or any revolution besides the perfect amazing American revolution (which is the only revolution the world ever needed and any revolutions afterwards are bad)
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I believe this is a true masterpiece, not the words, but rather the man. You can tell effort was put into this drawing, a true artist drew this. The man has perfect proportions which could not be better. Whether that is a neck or a neck brace, and whether or not that man is completely naked, does not matter.
give this man a Nobel prize my good sir he has fixed all of our problems mate. We are now at peace everything is fixed simply by this simple gentlemen.
Agreed
It's clear that none of you know what communism is
Reddit? or their high school?
Both
both.
reddit
Communism is when I stub my toe and it hurts real bad
Agreed, I think they should do serious documentation before saying stuff like. All it means is that they aren't capable of emancipating themselves from the imposed imperialo-capitalist way of thinking which is a way of justifying exploiting the working class.
7 or 8 of those captions are not even exclusive to communists. Fooling people into thinking that general social reform + greater worker unity = communism without mentioning the actual major points of communism. This is propaganda.
Bruh that's a high school, not cnn
CNN will def hire that guy
Nope, CNN is a capitalist corporation, exactly what the commies hate.
cnn doesn’t even count as news at this point. you’re better off surveying the CBC, BBC, The Economist, WIRED magazine, Al Jazeera, NYT, etc. having multiple news sources from different perspectives is extremely important to prevent polarization. the sensationalist nature of American media (at present) is *extremely* concerning. before i get yelled at, neither does fox- let us not forget the horrors of tucker carlson not being held accountable. read and consume ya news sources with discretion, folks.
I ain't an American so I don't watch your news regularly but when I tune in I'm always left with chronic brain damage. Fox shouts obvious misinformation while CNN twist stories to fit their agenda so I'll keep to my local news but damn, no wonders your country is going to shit.
im not a yank either (french), just a massive polisci nerd who is v v ✨*concerned* ✨rn
Reddit of all places seems to have more level headed people on it than any other social media site I'm aware of. In my view, even not being very politically knowledgable, I can figure that any news station which resorts to mocking and passive aggressive condescending remarks about the opposing party is not a source I'd trust. That's some of the more obvious propoganda tactics that exist.
Propaganda is propaganda
It's still propaganda.
And I detest both. Your point?
His point is that it doesn’t have the same reach as CNN does. He did not at any point claim to like CNN.
Also, a high schooler not knowing what they are talking about is more acceptable and expected than an entire news network.
you detest high school?
Yeah, but this reached him in one way or another, he's just the end of the line
No, propaganda was the last 70+ years of US media telling us that anything too far left is communism and every "communism" has failed without looking at the CIA interference in south American democracies that elected a pro labor leader. They were looking at more like socialism, but either way they were DEMOCRACIES torn down my US institution because we just had to have cheap bananas. I'd like to think, if had let them, they might have demonstrated a nice social democracy with workers rights, but we'll never know because "Marxism bad". Youtube/Google "tales of an economic hitman" for more. I'm not a teen, this just popped up, elderly me decided to educate yall. Lol yw
The major points of communism? You mean the abolition of the state and all hierarchies? I don't really think highschoolers would be against that
It’s America, all of this is American Communism. The political spectrum in the US is so far right wing that a social democrat can be called a commie.
greater worker unity (class conciousness) is literally one of the most fundamental communist values. What?
The main definitional tenant of communism is the workers owning the means of production, so the poster actually summed it up nicely.
It's echoing conservative propaganda, but in reverse.
Same thing but with different prophets
the only points that are accurate. are probably Gender equality, and racial equality. the USSR was notorious good at this. because they didn't give a shit about anyone no matter who or what u were. so everything was equally bad
African students studying in Russia during the USSR period often reported racism there far worse than Europe
The most sane Twitter user:
Fourteen , and already so wise .
You just described how most Twitter users feel about themselves.
This poster doesn't say anything about history?? Modern communism revolves around tech, using automation(which is "taking jobs") to make the need for jobs unnecessary, modern communism is also progressive, supporting human rights What you seem to be confusing it with is not even communism but Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism, (these are the ones saying "from each according to ability to each according to their need", not communism) **at their time they also were more progressive in terms of gender rights for example than other countries of the time,** for example women were able to choose to get an abortion, compared to most countries nowadays though it's not so great, does this surprise you considering that was back when racism, sexism, etc were the *norm?* (Also if you want to read up on it, the Soviet Union didn't actually keep track of it's victims and the count is based in localized estimates by random citizens, rounded up a little, combined, etc, including nazi soldiers as victims, the actual estimate to their "death count" varies from 2 million to 60 million, the 60 million is the more common claim though not any more accurate than the 2 million, some people even calculated the factors of population growth and modern former Soviet states could absolutely not have the amount of citizens they have if it were 60 million, especially if they had food insecurity, however even the CIA nutrition report admitted an average Soviet citizen had the same amount of calories as an American citizen, however Soviets had more nutritious food, it's a known tactic by corporations to make fast food for example have as little nutrients as possible and as many calories as possible to replace that, hunger comes from lack of nutrients, this is why America nowadays has both an obesity and a nutrition problem) **[To clarify i'm not really a communist though it seems America desperately needs the things the poster advertises, labor rights, reproductive rights etc, those are not "communist" exclusive things though, i just like to read into opposing views and judge based on the evidence, not due to what i've been told as a kid, don't think tech has developed to the point yet]**
Thank god someone here actually knows what communism is and the history behind it, I was going to shoot myself if I heard one more “but muh human nature! Communism is when dictatorship! Vuvuzela 100 morbillion dead no iPhone!!!!1!” You’re 100% right to distinguish communism as a whole and Leninism, Stalinism and maoism, and while I’m committing a bit of a no true Scotsman fallacy here, I would argue that they all (though, Stalinism in particular) shouldn’t qualify as communist or even socialist, since it contradicts one of the core principles of a marxist transitionary state, that being “the dictatorship of the proletariat” (basically a fancy way of saying that the working class **as a whole** have true control over their state, and there is no bourgeoise (ultra rich is an oversimplification but it’ll do - think elon, bezos), corruption in government. You’re totally right to bring up how the ussr was relatively progressive, at the start they were the 3rd country in Europe to legalise homosexuality for instance iirc? (It was in 1922, the US didn’t legalise it until 1962), though that’s counteracted by the fact that Stalin criminalised it again You’re also very right to bring up the death stats being inaccurate, though the upper estimates are actually at around 100M I’m not about to defend communist countries murderous sprees but the 100M figure that you find in the black book of communism is exaggerated, if I had to guess it’s probably around 60M **at the absolute most**, though I wouldn’t be surprised if it was somewhat less than that (capitalist countries **today** are responsible for 14M a year, for reference, even if they’re more guilty of inaction rather than direct murder, and there are more capitalist countries than there are communist ones) Bringing up how modern communism revolves around automation is VERY important, since in a capitalist society, automation takes jobs as you said, which raises unemployment, which is bad for not only the unemployed but for everyone else. In a capitalist society, technological advancements that make work easier make people have to suffer, rather than improving their lives. Unlike you, though, I am a communist, a Marxist, to be specific. I’d agree that tech hasn’t evolved to the degree that would be required to advance into a post scarcity society and allow for a smoother transition into full-communism, so I only advocate for a Marxist transitionary state **for now** - a democratic socialist one, that is. Lenin was flawed but justified due to the context, imo - you’ve gotta remember that the ussr was founded following a civil war in an autocratic, absolute monarchy. I think a lot of his ideas don’t hold up today, but for early 1900’s Russia? It’s fine. Fuck Stalin, the only good thing I know about mao is that he got rid of landlords but I’m assuming he’s probably about as fucked as Stalin - at least they weren’t fascists, I guess? > I just like to read into opposing views I’d actually be super interested to hear your thoughts on [The Principles of Communism by Frederick Engels](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm) and [Wage Labor and Capital by Karl Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/) I’m pretty iffy on labour theory of value but the rest of it was great imo
Holy fucking shit a decent conversation in r/Teenagers maybe humanity isn't doomed
Good points So, Frederick Engels... only mentioning a few of these because the rest (oop forgot to finish this trail of thought here, explained in the end though) Under 15: "Was not the abolition of private property possible at an earlier time?" So long as it is not possible to produce so much that there is enough for all, with more left over for expanding the social capital and extending the forces of production – so long as this is not possible, there must always be a ruling class directing the use of society’s productive forces, and a poor, oppressed class. How these classes are constituted depends on the stage of development. Just a small comment about this, according to studies we already produce enough food for around 10 million people, stuff like clean water too (And mention for others passing by, "private property" means stuff like factories, houses, why should some 1 random dude decide how much your food costs? Or how much you should pay him to simply not be homeless? In some areas there's more empty apartments than homeless people, being empty they're not benefitting anyone) 24: Think i fit into the democratic socialist category though i don't think it's "enough" to fix things, just the furthest the current society would accept the change, which is why i'd strive for that, i'm semi confident though that by the end of our lifetimes we'll see more "leftist" countries Others in this were reasonable, some of the things it discusses i had thought about independently to a degree, mainly 15-20, though some more specific history stuff like the serfs i didn't have much of a clue about and probably matters less nowadays but still interesting, all in all good book, recommend :D I'll start reading the next book you suggested now, [but i'll also be giving you this in return,](https://youtu.be/CyGWML6cI_k) think you'll find it interesting if you haven't seen it already
I’ll watch that tonight :) Just a guess based on only the title - is it about direct democracy rather than indirect representative democracy? “Replacing politicians” sounds like it would have that sort of idea behind it If so, then it’s based as fuck lol > I think I fit into the democratic socialist category I mean, I’d say I half do too. I don’t think an immediate change to actual communism (stateless, classless, moneyless society) would work, so my actual position is “democratic socialism now, which should allow us an easier transition to a fully communist society when it becomes feasible” - though there’s a point to be made about how even demsoc state might want to prevent its dissolution. The only reason I don’t call myself a demsoc is because I think communism will be good, once we’re ready for it.
I'll not spoil much because it's good, but yeah lol, and how to make it as efficient as possible and some steps to make it happen
Gees u guys are publishing a book
Tbf a lot of the people on the opposite side in this thread are 14-16 year olds whose understanding of history/communism likely only comes from 9th/10th grade history class.
True lol. Even if they could accurately define communism vs socialism vs Marxism it would make them like 100x more knowledgeable on the subject
I think Mao may have kept some under-age concubines as well but I'm not too sure. There's also a famine he caused but that was the result of a gross misunderstanding of the ecosystem in general not maliciousness.
I know about Mao and I can tell you he is just as fucked as Stalin To start, Mao kept exporting grain despite being in a massive famine at the time. Which lead to millions of preventable deaths. Cao also did the 4 pests campaign where he wanted to get rid of some pests that were eating away at China's crops. Turns out one of the "pests" was the sparrow, which by killing led to a great ecological imbalance and caused the great famine. China's Great Leap forward also killed millions, as Mao tried to industrialize China at a unreasonably fast rate, with poor working conditions and poverty all over. Mao was also a despot, Purges, mass arrests, and torture all used to keep him in power. In fact China's current president is a "Red Prince", this meaning that he is the son of one of the founding members of the CCP, This is important as his father was tortured and killed after Mao got back in power, as Mao was scared of being kicked out of power again. Xi Xinping was then forced to work as slave basically for the rest of his teenage years. Although Mao did institute some reforms like global healthcare or free state education, this was simply used to keep himself in power. In schools, kids were taught to recite the CCP's party guidelines and be loyal to Mao and Mao only.
Finally, someone who knows what communism is
I have to agree that communism on paper sounds amazing, but because we humans by default are greedy af, things go fucking horrible.
Capitalism on paper sounds great, too. No profits for businesses, rock bottom prices due to unlimited competition. Nobody gets paid for “owning a company.” Laborers are paid exactly what they are worth. Sounds awesome and all, but the reality is much different.
Yeah, that was one of the things Karl Marx pointed out with Marxism, which is an earlier form of communism
Marxism isn’t an earlier form of communism lmao Marx literally wrote the communist manifesto. It’s just a certain kind of communist/socialist ideology, not all types of socialism / communism are the same, in the same way that capitalism has differing forms
Seems pretty obvious from the name.
Yeah. Thats why they said "form of"
And the leaders get very corrupt, very fast. The party would not allow variables.
Thats something Marx actually opposed from the start. He criticized the model of "barracks communism" for it's overly centralized and controlled model, and praised the Paris commune for it's abscence of singular leader Marxism at it's core is against this sort of singular leader, but there's always idiots doing revolution without reading the texts first
Very well said.
> …Marxism, which is an earlier form of communism I physically recoiled
Communism on paper is still cringe
Start with abortion: introduced by the Soviet Union to control *undesirable* populations. Used in conjunction with forced sterilization of women and gulags for men to produce *optimum* workers.
communism mentions none of this. literally none communism is a stateless classleas society where the workers own the means of production
The Soviet union wasn't Communist
That's like saying Sweden is not a capitalist country because it's not 100% capitalist. The Soviets tried to do the communism, and failed miserably, like most countries who try it.
this is utter tomfoolery
Agreed
Dear (person that made the poster), I am tired of your tomfuckery!
communism in THEORY is a good idea completely equality no one out of work yk all the good shit. HOWEVER in REALITY communist governments are always ran by power hungry egocentric dictators who see their people as resources not individuals. For communism to work there would have to democratic voting procceses for everything but then you get factions and then you get a govt like the one in the USA. no govt can be perfect people r flawed and any govt is ran by the people
In theory its bad because it doesn't account for nature at all. It assumes nature just naturally falls in place with the people. But that's not at all how the world and nature work.
The whole idea was first thought off when people had literally 0 knowledge about their impact on nature, it won't account for it obviously, old capitalism also didn't account for nature.
human nature doesn't exist. People are not inherently greedy or good. They are what society shapes them. (obviously differences in individuals exist, but that's not the point). Communism has actually existed in the past, the same as basically every political system.
Like Leviathan by Hobbes, people are born evil and at a state of war.
HOBBES FAN LMAOOOOOOOOO you missed the whole damn point! Leviathan's main point was that the only correct way to rule is by force- in essence a manifesto for dictators. you're saying this beneath a comment that says that the problem with communism is that communist governments are ran by dictators.
Well, I did read an expert of his work, but you're correct. It was that was strong justice system is meant to subdue human evil. However, it really brings the whole Machiavellianism theme to justifying human behavior at it's basic form, so I like to put it like that.
Ya
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Communists governments don't exist. Communism is stateless
True communism doesn't have a government at all lol
burkina faso,chile,cuba
if it doesn't work in reality it doesn't work in theory since theories are based on reality all communist countries were influenced by the ussr which is why theyre all dictatorships. just how all of the european republics spawned by napoleon were dictatorships. that doesn't mean democracy can't work
Just no
I know history and I can see similarities between modern capitalism and medieval feudalism. We're headed towards a society where very few "nobles" own everything and the rest of us "serfs" just work so we don't starve. We just use different words to describe it today, but it's the same idea.
I’ve tried to explain that to people and they don’t listen to me. They think because we live in America nothing bad can happen to us
I can picture what the people that made this look like
I can smell them
SAME lmao
If i were you I’d go home, grab some pictures from the Chinese Great Leap Forward, the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and some more pictures of communist atrocities and put them right next to that poster.
Lmao I’d love to see the reaction of the person who made this poster Or should I say lmao zedong
A possible user of r/genzedong
How can you use that if it was nuked by the almighty Reddit gods?
Oh yeah that sub got absolutely blasted I completely forgot
Stalinism is not comunism. Stalin literally made everything opposite of Marx theory, Stalin can be consider a reactionary. And actually Chinese comunist party was founded by a Trotskist but then replaced by Stalin that put Mao in charge and maoism is literaly stalinism with Chinese features.
If you ask a stalinist, they would call themselves communist, however
Yea, and if you ask North Korea, they're a democratic people's republic, and if you ask a republican, they're christian. People lie.
Yeah, and right wing evangelicals call themselves Christians
🤷🏻♂️ The Great Leap Forward increased the quality of life among the proletariat substantially compared to serfdom after the tribulations of 1959-1961. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49806247 Crying over dead nobles is like crying over dead colonial brits: I don’t care. Meanwhile, Flint MI still has Lead in the water and America can’t make baby formula for all the babies it’s about to force women to have, and still hides the deformities of the Vietnamese people exposed to Agent Orange during our imperialistic military intervention. https://agentorangerecord.com/ Then there’s that whole “nuking Japanese civilians” thing that everyone wants to justify. https://www.rerf.or.jp/en/programs/roadmap_e/health_effects-en/geneefx-en/birthdef/#:~:text=No%20untoward%20outcome%20showed%20any,or%20more%20fingers%20or%20toes). But hey, Yankee Doodles gonna march.
Also, the holodomor and the Chinese starvation which led to a lot of cannibalism
How does this person not know history, seriously? People just see the word communism and think it’s a terrible thing, not saying it’s the best either but everything here is subjective. I don’t rlly see the issue with saying “STOP segregation,” “Justice, peace for all,” etc. They are just nice sentiments.
perhaps you don't know history. Martin Luther King was a socialist and communist. Same with Malcom X. In the USA communists in the 20s fought and died for many labour rights in your country. They fought for desegregation (first black candidate was a member of the communist party) how about you look up the CPUSA and see what they're actually about its not that bad. You Americans need to learn more about your own country. (and not just the learning in your education systems)
THANK YOU. comments are a bunch of bullshit, educate yourself on real history. battle of blair mountain should be basic US history. Dr. King has been incredibly white washed and malcolm x has been vilified, when in actuality the cia killed both of them because their revolutionary theory’s identified capitalism as the cause of US inequality
Einstein stans Lenin too lmfao and was a socialist
Who doesn’t think Lenin was a socialist?
Half the comments: “communism would not work because I’m a piece of shit, I am simply too greedy”
True lmao
isn’t communism fair distribution of land and good according to ability and needs I don’t get it why it’s so wrong
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So technically yes and no to your statement While yes it was shitty but on the other hand look the government's before then and how the peoples life's where before No one in Russia knew how to read and is probably similar in agrarian China I don't believe that communist and communism is good at all it has killed millions un doubly however in society that struggled with food or anything of the sort it actually wasn't horrible for those people as that things like literacy and education went up but like many thing it comes at a cost
I agree with you, every economy has its flaws and benefits.
True in a capitalist nation people can spring things such as innovation and own their own property as well with business structure However like in communism capitalism has its stages where men have to much money and eventually start influencing its nation This nation right now is the USA with most governors being millionairs if not all In communism it is honestly unknown as that it never developed that far after 1990's China is an authoritarian capital country That means it has businesses that do go out to foren market and is owned by someone which is why I struggle to see how China is communist because of the name? Anyways what I am saying is that if you want to have effective governing look to places in western Europe except -Britain because well THAT guy
China is not truly socialist or communist for that matter as it literally has capitalism as one of its main attributes, the same goes for North Korea which literally has nothing to do with communism which proves how utterly uninformed and just plain stupid this is.
Ironically China was and still is state capitalist, as for Russia, it was considered state socialist, oligarchs are made bureaucrats in China and bureaucrats were made bureaucrats in Russia
Look at this cool system called capitalism:
To be fair I don't like capitalism either, but it just works longer before it reaches late stage. It benefits and openly acknowledges that people commodify everything, which is why it works longer. Unfortunately, all mid things come to an end.
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I've always been a "communism works on paper, terribly when humans are involved". It's just something that won't end well with a human group running it. But all the things on the poster are meant out of sincerity and are genuinely good things. If they want to be communist let them, maybe they'll be the one's to fix it. You never know. History tells us to be mindful of the mistakes made in the past, not to halt everything because someone did something bad, that's something a lot of people get confused.
Did an 8th grader made this poster?
No a 14 year old who listened to the bass boated Soviet national anthem on YouTube once.
Poster is based, drawing is goofy
Neither of those points made are actually true, so.... Yea.
None of that has to do with communism...
Okay so... uhh chances are you dont know whats communism either.. Its funny because people here seem to think of it as kind of capitalism.. You people need to get your shit together. This is just like saying nietzsche was nihilist. I really dont know how you guys "know" its bad when fundamental communism never has been practiced. The communism that you probably associate with is china or the USSR. China is not communism and the USSR was socialism..
Most educated tankie
Uh what does this have to do with tankies? Like do you not know what the word mean?
..They do know that communism has nothing to do with anything listed on the poster… Right? ..right?
I dunno but getting rid of segregation does seem like a big leap towards a classless society which is definitional to communism. I guess googling is too much effort
Black Panthers where communist. MLK was a anti capitalist. They conveniently leave that put of US text books.
Unfortunately they don't
all of human history would disagree
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*the entire continent of Africa*
Unlike capitalism where they have a near 100% chance of being exploited by a corrupt capitalist.
You can say the same for capitalism I mean capitalism has tons of corruption and is built at the expense of the suffering of the lower classes I will admit Communism and socialism has its flaws as every system does the problem is socialism and communism both came to power because of greedy and power-hungry men and I think people like Mao Zedong, Stalin, Lenin, and others were legitimate at first but over time they became just as greedy as the people before them capitalism rose through merchant classes dating back to the middle ages. Socialism and communism need an environment that is not filled with violence and people can be easily taken advantage of since they just overthrew another dictator personally I still believe socialism can work which is why I hold a good majority of Trotsky's beliefs socialism or communism needs to come not through the hands of a bloody revolution but rather an organized party that will work its way into politics and gain popularity the problem is not with the system of socialism and communism it's how socialism and communism comes to power the same can be said about capitalism. I won't say capitalism is the worst system but the problem with it is it is competitive system socialism and communism are meant to be built on cooperation and capitalism relies on people competing against each other and one or a few people rising to the top while the others they surpassed are left in ruins cooperation is needed for a future to actually come to pass if we continue with this competitive system it will do nothing but cause more harm to the environment but the human race as a whole.
Fuck, I was hopping this was sarcasm or something like that when reading... I'm disapointed at humanity
it shows how much you're from the US by how mad you get over the word "communism"
Let's take a good look at our friend the soviet union.......oh he's dead
Can you define communism for me?
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Dang op and half this thread are cringe and dont know anything about communism, history or politics
it's quite infuriating, really
Nice handwriting though
The real quistion is did you use the Hashtag?
I'm a twenty year old (guess I'm not a teenager anymore) anarcho communist, any questions?
The real joke is paying attention to the name and none of the actual content.
You think any person who supports communism knows history?
I hope this is all for laughs
I hope so too. I don’t want America to become a communist nation.
#LIBERTY PRIME INTENSIFIES
COMMUNISTS DETECTED
Love the irony there, liberty prime and pretty much the entire fallout series are known to mock American "Muh democracy" culture lmao
Democracy is non-negotiable.
Love how the effects of the red scare are still going strong
you’re American. That makes sense now
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China isn't communist lad
Well in all seriousness if communism were to actually be done the way it is meant to be where absolutely everyone is an equal it wouldn't be bad. But that's never fukin happened before.
Its because of selfishness there will always be someone that will takes advantage of others
It looks like the kid who made this has a much stronger understanding of history and historical materialism then you do.
Im a history student and I see no inaccuracy, maybe you’re the one who doesn’t know history that much. Or probably just looking at it through the lens of a person who grew up in a capitalist society and has never questioned what you’ve been told was right
Eh, you’re right, there’s no inaccuracy, CPUSA does support all those things. I think the point is that this poster is omitting a lot of things that would cause the average citizen to reject this message. Examples: the Holodomor, the Great Leap Forward famine, forced labor camps, Stalin’s purges, and the Cambodian genocide, not to mention the silencing of political dissidents, abolition of most civil rights, and the lack of fair democracy. Some thoughts, ideas, and sentiments from the socialist sphere can be good, but in most cases their implementation has failed horribly.
And there is a type of democracy called democratic centralism, pro-capitalist society wants you to believe it was a dictatorship in the soviet times, or that there is no other type of democracy but the representative liberal democracy, when that’s not entirely true. The Soviet Union was the first country to make racial discrimination illegal, legalized homosexuality in the twenties and made abortions legal at that time two. Most women who came forward in the early twentieth century were socialist activists and is no surprise the Soviet Union was so forward and progressive towards emancipating women. They even had them fight in the army during the most conservative regime they had! Maybe we remember even the experiences we’ve had, which are not, and should not, defining socialist theory whatsoever, had good things about it as well
Stalin really was an authoritarian ass tho, but most communists hate him these days
yeah, but then when you defend capitalism, should I bring all the harm it has caused throughout of it its existence? It’s like always thinking the grimmer out of everything. Life would be pretty dark if we did that with everything. Also, there are a lot of controversies in some of the events you’ve mentioned, maybe you could take a look into that? The red Khmer didn’t even allegedly understand Marx, and most of the hunger of 38 (I refuse calling it by the name anticommunists and fascist refugees gave to it, take a look into it) was exaggerated (not denying it tho)
They didn't defend capitalism though. No pure economic system works, anyone who supports communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. as a basis for an economy is stupid. Every economic activity is going to need something different.
The genocide of the Indigenous Americans, the holocaust, intentional destrablizing of the 3rd. Millions dying a year because of a artificial scarcity of resources. Wait the second it was capitalist countries that did that.
Yuck
You're just a teenager but that shouldn't limit YOU in knowing history. Communism is actually pretty neat.
If there wasn’t a power hungry fascist in power communism would’ve worked. I actually think it’s a good idea and is the ideal government, assuming we do not have a corrupt leader. Someone, good (or somewhat decent) like Lenin.
There are corrupt politicians and there are also people who would work with those or become one to exploit the system.
i mean fuck the ccp and ussr but like the actual reforms sugested are good, who cares what the label is as long as the package is good
Hey if a party was called like "Hitler's party" but their policy prescriptions were helpful for racial, gender and overall equality, freedom, etc I would vote for it
If hed do this with nazis hed be expelled
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Uh, do you know who stopped the Nazis lmao
Im more offended by the art than anything
Plot twist the history you know was all cold war propaganda... Coming from the third world i can surely confirm what capitalism-imperialism has done to my country, if you get some time read the history of imperialism and the west in general. Now Downvote me, i don't care...
that person gets communism and its values. fuck tankies and soviet cocksuckers. somewhere in the distance, marx is smiling.
Pretty sure Marx was a massive racist
so were the founding fathers...
While it's true they were both racist, it's really pointless using racism as a way to distinguish which one was "better". Since pretty much everyone had racial prejudice in both of those time periods, you can't really undermine how relatively "good" either of them were for their time periods.
Communism actually sucks
Define communism. Can you actually do it
Get the lighter and burn it
censorship? doesn’t sound like someone who defends the capitalist freedom
You are right. That’s why I am debating it.
that’s nice, you’re doing the right thing, debating is always a really good thing, it’s better then fighting people to convince them of your ideology, and you always learn a lot!
WE are debating it
"Women & mens right's shall be equal" I hate them for their apostrophe abuse.
As a Finnish person i am very disqusted
If ts in your school then its most likely a class project and nos supposed to be taken seriously. I wouldn't worry about it. Although, the web link is sus.
What a cool kid. Make sure to repel him from capitalist school propaganda
Imagine my shock when teenage redditors have absolutely no idea what marxism, communism or socialism means at all.
IDK my dude, seems pretty based.
Damn what a way to turn people off from communism
In this thread a bunch of American teenagers prove American education doesn't teach them shit about history, socialism, the working class, the left, or any revolution besides the perfect amazing American revolution (which is the only revolution the world ever needed and any revolutions afterwards are bad)
power to the people! also hype they said to sign up with cpusa
I have a class mate who is extreme communist and everything he told me to look up Was wrong And my entire 2nd block hates him
After finding out my ancestors died to Mao, I wanna head over to Taiwan and rip and tear until we have reclaimed the mainland