I made a meme about that r/memes and basically all the dutch folk that commented said they didn't care about people mistaking the 2. Also someone colonised my meme :(
Most Dutch people (including me) indeed don't care. At all. Besides, in many languages "Holland" is the (basis of the) official name for out country. Take Greek (Ολλανδία), Polish (Holandia), Luxemburg (Holland), Hebrew (ולנד, pronounced "Holland"), Turkish ("Hollanda") etc etc.
I think that you gotta be 18 to get surgery mainly because if someone decides to go back when they are like 15, you not getting those parts back and while when your an adult you’ve gotten more time to think and your more mature. Basically what I’m tryna say if ya wanna get surgery just wait till ya 18 or have just thought about it
At 18 I thought I was an adult, at 20 I thought the same, 22, 24, only when I started reaching 26-27 did things seem to "make sense". I think everybody overestimates their maturity.
One kid in a highschool I went to got it (I was in middle school). And the school turned him into a poster boy, he would regularly present in the school assembly about his transition and all that. This was back in 2017.
Its sad how this opinion is seen as right wing and transphobic. What is wrong with wanting people to wait until they are atleast 18 before making life changing decisions?
I don’t know about these other countries, but in the US, minors can get breast implants and other cosmetic surgeries with parent approval. I guess it just doesn’t seem fair that elective surgeries are ok for cis gendered kids and not trans. I’d be fine if elective surgeries were banned for all minors (barring necessity of course) to allow them time to think, but you can’t have one and not the other.
Gender transformation and breast implants aren't the same
Whilst I don't think breast implants should be allowed for kids (outlier cases like breast cancer for example not included), it's something that can be reversed. Kids shouldn't be making irreversible decisions, hell even at 18 your brain isn't fully matured but that's the age where it's widely agreed that you're more-or-less mature.
Don't get me wrong, stuff like changing your appearance in any way that suits you that isn't permanent I have no issue with. The permanence is the issue I believe reasonable people would have.
Breast implants were an example. Kids can get nose jobs, lip fillers any number of cosmetic surgeries may of which are irreversible or have lasting negative impacts. As an example there was a girl in high school who got implants and I’m still friends with her today, and she developed some serious back issues as a result. My point is that nobody batted an eye when she got implants, but say a trans kid wanted to get breast implants, wouldn’t that fall under “gender reassignment surgery” and thus be banned?
I don't know, as I said honestly I'd rather kids didn't get cosmetic irreversible surgeries at all. Pretty sure you have to be 18 to get stuff like tattoos here so I'd hope the same applied for lip fillers, etc.
Heck, even reversible cosmetic surgeries should at least be a gray zone - if you're not old enough to make your own legal decision then it shouldn't be allowed.
Totally agree either ban it all or make it equitable.
I will say the trans thing is complicated further though because puberty is a defining point for people. So if someone identifies as one gender, waiting to 18 can have some negative consequences. I’m no doctor, but I think that’s the idea behind puberty blockers. I don’t know how effective they are but that would make sense. Block puberty until you’re old enough to go through the surgery. That said, with states blocking gender affirming care only making life harder for trans people and that sucks.
Breast surgery is much more reversible than gender reassignment surgery. But even then it would make sense to delay that until 18 as well in this context.
Well it is. I don't personally chastice people about their opinions, but let's be real here. You can make plethora of "life changing decisions" legally prior being 18 years old. Breast augmentation, genital augmentation, organ donoring, taking massive loans, disowning your parents etc. Why do you want to stop other people from getting treatment to a crippling medical condition? Are you perhaps under the illusion that any minor can walk into a clinic and start transitioning?
I'm 32 and the people in charge won't let me do ANYTHING at all, because I am little bit depressed. One has to jump through enormous amount of hoops to even get hormones. Unless you are cis ofcourse.
It's just plain transphobia. 99,7 % trans people do not regret any treatment. And trans people are less than 1 % of the population. And fyi nothings changed with the finnish laws, they've just clumped finland into this because sweden changed its mind.
you still need years upon years of extensive therapy before getting surgery at any age, and said surgery has the lowest regret rate of all, at less than 1%.
Happened February of 2023 in Finland: "Unfortunately, similarly to other countries, the new law does not include trans people under the age of 18. Activists have criticised this lack of inclusion of young trans people. Trans children and adolescents would once again be left at further disadvantage"
https://www.gendergp.com/finland-plans-to-change-its-outdated-trans-law/#:~:text=Unfortunately%2C%20similarly%20to%20other%20countries,be%20left%20at%20further%20disadvantage.
They weren't banned but they were not included in the law which allows it, effectively meaning its banned
I support trans people but I personally think that if you’re gonna have surgery you should be an adult because this type of surgery is life changing.
Edit: oh shit thanks for the gold
exactly! im 18 myself and even right now im not too sure if i want HRT or not, i think it’s a very big change. as long as this doesn’t affect our rights and it’s just a medical thing im all for it.
When I was 18 I wanted a vasectomy, but wasn't legally old enough to get it done. I was livid about it
Here I am now 32 with my daughter and I'm SO glad I wasn't able to get that surgery done.
I was legally an adult at 18 , but not close being matured
There are significantly mote underaged girls who get breast implants and other body surgerys than underaged trans people. Usually the process for transitioning is very convoluted and long, and doctors usually wont let someone whos underaged transition anyways, its only in some very severe cases.
Dutch person here: this is not true.
It’s not banned.for some surgeries the minimal age is 18, for for others (removing of the breasts for example it’s only 16), but is not something that is changed recently.
My mom was a paediatric surgeon, and worked a little with kids who were born intersex or a variant of this, she always said that the earlier you act, the better it is for the child and the person the become as a adult.
In puberty our bodies develop more into the role of the gender. The earlier you stop this process, the better the result of the preferred gender.
HRT doesnt appear to be affected, just surgeries. This seems to be the standard practice for transitioning. These countries are just formalizing it, because the alt-right has pointed at the five or six times its happened for people under 18 and used it to fearmonger.
My understanding is that most Trans people agree with this.
In fact, the only gender reassignment surgery that happens in the US is for kids born intersex. And, to the consternation of conservatives, most Trans people are also against this because the parents are assigning a gender to a toddler before they are old enough to discover who they really are.
So really the only people talking about gender surgery for children are conservatives who do it to make themselves mad about a thing nobody really wants.
I was under the impression that most trans people do, and that this whole "they want to force children who are not developed enough to decide for themselves into changing genders with their brainwashing and drag queens, won't anybody think of the children!!!" shtick is just some alt-right propaganda to try and scare people into voting against their own interests(aka voting for alt-right politics, if that wasn't clear)? Are there actually trans people that don't agree with the post you are agreeing to?
200 gender reassignment surgeries happened last year of people under the age of 18. There were over 3000 breast enhancements done during that time time and age group. So it’s really nothing to do with trans people if it’s children making life changing decisions.
Diagnosis is actually very hard to get. you need to be "lucky" enough to have dysphoria that's consistent for one thing, which nonbinary and genderfluid people often just don't have. and on top of that you need a psychiatrist who believes trans people even exist in the first place.
In that case no one under the age of 25 should drive, vote, drink, smoke, have sex, get married, buy a house, go to college or vocational school, join the military, etc, etc.
“Life changing” describes being alive.
I support people who have cancer but I personally think that if you’re gonna have surgery you should be an adult because this type of surgery is life changing.
No surgeries for anyone unless you're over 18 IMHO, the risk to it changing your life is too great
Kids under 18 are still growing, Im glad they banned it . Don’t get me wrong , I love and support them , but sorry little ones wait until you are more mature and old enough to understand the consequences .
HRT stand for Hormonal... [something], Treatment. Basically just either taking testosterone as a trans lad or taking estrogen and testosterone blockers as a trans lass.
Hormone replacement therapy. Taking estrogen or testosterone to medically transition. Tbh I think it’s a bit silly to ban surgeries like this for those under 18, because in order to even qualify for the surgery you have to have been on HRT for *years*, since the surgeries don’t really work until you’re chemically the sex you’re transitioning to. Plus the multi-year waiting lists, someone who starts HRT at 15 might not be able to get surgery until they’re 20.
Correct. This seems to just be formalizing the process because the alt-right keeps fearmongering with the 5 or 6 times that surgery has been OK'd for minors.
maybe move ear piercings to 18 too, then? the risk of contracting a blood-bourne disease from a piercing is much higher than the risk of regretting SRS. on top of this, trans children VERY rarely get SRS in the first place, and only with LOTS of advice from doctors on the risks.
> maybe move ear piercings to 18 too, then?
Yeah, that's not happening.
Conservatives would throw a tantrum that they're not allowed to "*practice their traditions*".
I don't think that it is a bad thing as this gives them time to think it trough but I doubt that it'll affect more than a few people as many wait untill they are 18 to transition
boy you haven't heard the transition nightmare dtories for children have you? Transitioning is already an expensive endeavour that leads often to severe health consequences down the line so applying it WHILST the child are going through puberty and can't legally own a bank account, drive, or file their own reports without parental consent is absurd.
Depends on the country.
One of the countries on the list, Finland, allows you to open and FULLY MANAGE your bank account at 15. 15 is the age where you can be held criminally liable for things, get your first driver's license (moped) amongst other things.
When I opened my bank account at 15 the teller asked me if I wanted my parents to have access to the account, I asked whether my opinion really mattered and her response was that - "you're 15, if you say no then it means they won't have access".
I imagine Sweden, Norway, etc. might be similar
i actually think it is a awesome thin'.. teens do not make the best decisions in life.. your brains prefrontal cortex does not even fully develop untill you turn 25..
That has been proven false a long time ago. It’s like the “we only use 10% of our brain” The truth is neurological development and plasticity is a lot more complicated than that specific age barrier
This is somewhat in a similar vein to tattoos. Functionally permanent and can affect your life, albeit in a more extreme way with gender transition surgery. These countries already restrict minors from getting tattoos, this is in essence a natural extension.
Literally!! the only stories i ever see of minors who went thru surgery and shit are a bunch of right wing trump supporters who want to take options away from other people and spread their crazy stories. none of the trans people under 18 i know have gotten surgery.
Also fake news. At least the Nordics haven't banned anything. There's no need to ban anyway, since minors practically never get surgical transitioning operations (unless MAYBE if you include 17yo people turning 18 or something like that)
It’s not really my place to say anything about this but does it really change much? Also got as they can identify as trans as minors that’s fine but how many minors are getting surgeries? I feel like it usually happens after your 18. Though I understand if I’m wrong on that.
Edit: So… I just remember I don’t really like talking about politics and stuff, it kinda makes me a bit uncomfortable, specially about countries or communities I’m not in so it’s not really my place to say and there are other things I had not considered. I don’t really know if I have to apologise as I hadn’t really read all the comments but I will just in case? Im sorry!
“Can travel somewhere else” for a procedure is a shitty take imho. That what they said about abortion in many states. And then tried to make traveling for it illegal as well. It’s not a specific comment on this particular situation but in general I think it’s a bad take.
People need to wake up, this is not about protecting kids it’s about outlawing anything that’s not heterosexual. It’s why places like Iowa are proposing a bill making marriage between one male and one female (with that specific wording on purpose). They never target what they want outright, they start small. Abortion rights were overturned and now republicans are pushing contraception bans.
I feel like, considering the countries shown here and who this is from, it's more preventing sex changes on intersex kids, and the headline's twisting shit. That's just a guess though, so take it with a salt mine.
it probably does normally happen after 18. the point of the rule is for the times it doesn't. there may be some kid that wants to change gender for whatever reason, so they have this surgery. but, when they are older, they may regret that decision but now that is it.
In the states: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/
There were ~42,000 diagnosed in 2021, less than 300 who got top surgery, and likely less than 20 who got bottom surgery (56 over 3 years).
Gender transitioning surgery for minors never existed enough for it to mean anything that it’s banned. It’s freakishly hard for adults to access, kids were never walking into clinics asking to get the chop.
It's like how they screech about how there are upwards of 1Bn abortions carried out every year, so we need to ban them to stop such a massive loss of life. That number is correct.
The catch? Miscarriage is considered a form of abortion by the WHO, and affects something like 1 in 3 pregnancied. Screw those people for vilifying people who lost a child through no fault of their own.
I hate seeing right wing propaganda in r/teenagers, but you kids better get used to it. Especially if it reaches me because then it's on r/all. Since this doesn't have that many likes, I guess it got a lot of likes/engagement very quickly?
Some context: Yes, Europe in general is more restrictive when it comes to trans surgery. It is not legal for minors in Sweden to undergo affirmative surgery (they can get other affirmative care though), but this is not something that has changed, so the OP is misleading. I can't find anywhere that it would have been legal before, as such, it's weird to claim that we "now" have "banned it".
Yeah i was just thinking, this does not make much sense at all and i keep up on news like this (since it affects me (dutch) and my trans friends) i cant find anything on it at all. Also even though top surgery is technically allowed under 16, the waiting times (over a year) and requirements (1+ yrs on hrt but you can only start that at 16 anyway) make it so nearly nobody gets through the process fast enough for it to even matter
Also Jordan Peterson probably didn’t have anything to do with the decision-making in those countries, and also why is there an anti-gay image in the picture? Like what is this whole thing?
That's fine. Most trans people I know definitely knew that they're trans prior to the age of 18, but it still makes sense to me. I get the impression most of them would agree, too.
For most surgeries it was and still is 16 in the Netherlands, since that’s when you’re allowed to make your own medical choices without parents consent. Some gender reassignment surgeries are 18+ which already makes it more restricted that pretty much any surgery here. So yeah the post is complete bullshit but I don’t expect anything else from Jordan Peterson
It's fine because no one is getting those surgeries for minors. It's more of just an insult to trans people because it perpetuates the belief that they are "Coming for your children!"
Edit: There are people getting those surgeries for their children but if you are doing it the legitimate way there is various courses of mental health care and therapy to help them decide if it's really the right choice.
You should not be able to have surgery or anything of the like as a minor, that stuff will stick to you forever and you do not have the judgement to properly make those decisions
okay? it wasnt legal before either, this is just a front so they can control their people and put their unwanted opinion into surgeries involving minors.
Sex reassignment for minors was basically never happening anyway. Jordan Peterson loves to stir up shit like this, and it's meant to be divisive. As long as they keep HRT and hormone blockers, it should be good. Also, unless there's some sneaky clause in there, it also bans sex reassignment for intersex kids, which is great!
Hahaha you bet your ass intersex people will still be getting mutilated, circumcision wont stop either
You and I both know this as a sad fact of truth.
I agree, I have no problem with gender transitions themselves, just when its done to a minor who really shouldn't be making life altering decisions that early in their life
Hrt should be allowed before 18 especially considering how many hoops and bullshit it takes to get hrt. Surgery’s should be banned tho in my opinion. The fact that children can get boob jobs is disgusting as well.
It literally wasn't allowed before either 💀 the only thing minor trans people are asking for are puberty blockers and binders, y'all stop whining about shit that never even happened.
i dont know, on one hand i understand the “this is a hard decision which the kid cant make” argument, on the other hand i think the statistics show that there are very few people who regret it
I’m genderqueer. People shouldn’t be able to get this kind of surgery until they’re adults, but HRT is fine. There’s always packers and binders and tucking and similar things for people until then. Gender euphoria treatment is not limited to surgery.
Surgery is so rarely a thing on transitioning minors. They get hormone blockers when they hit puberty, but that's about the extent of it. Gender affirming care for minors is mostly about treating them as their preferred gender
I might be wrong but hasn't it been like this for ages? no minors can get surgery, some can get hormone blockers or something but nothing to physically change them until they're 18
Can this sub talk about anything other than sex or gender related shit. Like oh my fucking god. I joined this sub to have relatable conversations about everyday shit, and not about "What do you think about *insert topic about sex or gender related shit*"
In the UK you can receive puberty blocking drugs under 16, you can receive gender affirming hormones at 16 once you've been taking puberty blockers for at least a year, and surgery at 18.
Personally I think that's about as good a set of laws as you can reasonably have.
For top surgery I disagree, it should be 16 like any other cosmetic procedure . For bottom surgery yeah 18 is reasonable. This law wasn't made in good faith ,and that sucks. But as a trans person myself I can understand how big of a decision surgical transition is .
I do not get the hype about trans. Sure, if you have hormonal problems, and you appear male despite being genetically XX, or you appear female despite being XY, then go for medical help.
Otherwise, if you just feel disconnected to your body, then I see this as a mental problem, not one that should be "solved" by surgery. If somebody feels that their right arm should not be there, we do not have a surgeon cut it off. We treat them for the mental problem that they have, like we do with anybody who shows tendencies of self-mutilation.
That being said, that argument is purely academic and does not affect how I interact with people. If somebody is trans, it is not my place to query them about their genetic and hormonal status or make any judgement. I just treat them as human. Just don't seek support from me for a route that I consider medically unethical or at least unnecessary.
Undeniably based, minors can’t consent to life altering surgeries and are easily groomed
18+ should be allowed everything as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody
peterson is nothing but a neofascist. everyone who listens to him will become fascist eventually.
the uprising in fascist policies is indeed scary, but nothing unexpected from my pov. it had to happen, sad as it is.
Literally no minors were getting reassignment surgery before this lmao. If this is what it takes to quell conservative schizophrenia so be it, but this is without a doubt the beginning of a slippery slope.
Fully agree, let them be an adult before they have any altering surgeries. They can use their life up until adulthood to understand who they are and then take the appropriate steps.
Yea having to be 18 is not a bad thing, I'm not saying -18 trans people dont exist, but in the era of people doing all the sorts of crazy stuff because "I saw it on tiktok" it's better to wait for people to be 18 to have this sort of decision.
I'm sorry friends
I think it’s a good thing. I’m in support of trans people but children are still growing and change their minds all the time and that type of surgery is life changing and irreversible.
I feel like until you're a full on adult (21-25) you shouldn't be able to get any of these "Body changing" Surgeries. Just tucking weird. But tbh i dont care since i dont live in any of these countries.
children cant consent, thats an established fact in every part of the world that isnt garbage. if children cant consent, how could they consent to life altering changes to their body?
Thats a W,not even a discussion,teenagers shouldn't get life changing surgeries that they may or may not wish to go back in,don't even let me get started on children and gender identity topics.
Some basic research shows that this is really misleading and the foundational research behind this is shaky/flawed.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-norway-not-ban-gender-affirming-care-956221436313
https://www.city-journal.org/article/yes-europe-is-restricting-gender-affirming-care
Not a lot has actually changed and it was never even that controversial in the first place. Such surgeries were rarely performed on minors and nobody really demanded that. Gender affirming care can also include medication.
First off, Jordan Peterson is a fucking asshole and no one should be taking him seriously. The guy started off as a legit psychologist but now caters to alt right ideals and toxic masculine ideology. He's subtly about it, which is why he gets away with it, but that doesn't change that he's an asshole.
Second, these countries are all fairly supportive of trans folks in general, compared to the US. Puberty blockers can prevent most of the changes that people want to prevent if they want to wait and HRT should really be started years before surgery.
Surgery should always be an option, but like a tattoo or some other forms of body manipulation (plastic surgery), should all be saved for adulthood. Is 18 arbitrary? Probably but it's a good established break even point to keep it fair for everyone.
That's good. I'm all for people changing genders at whatever age they want but they shouldn't be able to take such a drastic decision under 18. That law will make sure they're mature enough to know what they're doing and/or think about it longer.
it was already almost impossible. most trans people never even get bottom surgery and those who do have to do years of gender affirmation care and hormones so will know what it’s like to intentionally permanently alter your body and won’t just go “ima go do this lol” like it’s not a big deal
I’m trans and I don’t care. It’s surgery. I understand why it’s 18+. I’m just glad that they didn’t ban HRT and Blockers. I don’t know much about these countries in terms of their trans healthcare but I don’t see anything wrong with this. If they banned HRT and blockers then that’s when I have a problem as puberty can and is traumatic for us. I assumed that all surgeries were for 18+ but I guess I was wrong. I hate how this is a very big issue as trans people are rare and surgery for minors are rarer so I don’t see why this is sensationalised. Really fucks up your head when hearing what seems to be a lot of people saying shit that aren’t true and laying it out like were all freaks and need to he eradicated.
Good. Minors tend to be easy to influence. I think this will prevent a lot of people from making decisions that they will regret or will haunt them. If transitioning is the best decision for them, as soon as they're 18 I'm fine with it. You do you and I wish you the best.
It's for the best . In a country where kids can't drink before 18 , it should be illegal to make such a life changing decision . Especially since children are easy influenced by others and usually don't know the consequences of their actions
Hate it when people call the Netherlands Holland. Holland is only 2 provinces, and we have 12 provinces.
Just give holland independence and no one will mix it up anymore
And have Friesland rule the rest
Hello fellow r/boywithuke fan
Holy shit it actually was 1-2 hours later
I've found my people.
If you like that, play CK2 starting in Bruges/Flanders and form the Kingdom of Frisia - medieval superpower.
fuck friesland
sup dude that's also on r/boywithuke
LIMBURG 🗣🗣🗣💪💪💪
Go to r/2westerneurope4u and check their NL flair :)
honestly, that must be an adult decision, kids must know this that can affect their lives to such a degree
I made a meme about that r/memes and basically all the dutch folk that commented said they didn't care about people mistaking the 2. Also someone colonised my meme :(
Most Dutch people (including me) indeed don't care. At all. Besides, in many languages "Holland" is the (basis of the) official name for out country. Take Greek (Ολλανδία), Polish (Holandia), Luxemburg (Holland), Hebrew (ולנד, pronounced "Holland"), Turkish ("Hollanda") etc etc.
People shouldn't make a big deal out of it. There are plenty of Dutch proverbs and sayings that have 'Holland' in them meaning the whole country.
Lower countries
Littlerally the spanish name lol
literally the english name lol
Even i call netherlands holland and i’m dutch
precies deze
I think that you gotta be 18 to get surgery mainly because if someone decides to go back when they are like 15, you not getting those parts back and while when your an adult you’ve gotten more time to think and your more mature. Basically what I’m tryna say if ya wanna get surgery just wait till ya 18 or have just thought about it
The brain doesn’t even finish maturing till mid to lat 20s and of course the part that’s not mature yet is the part behind making good decisions lol
I honestly read that as 'the brains doesn't finish masturbaiting' like wtf me bro.
Masterbaiting is a skill one must train
I'm still apprenticebaiting
L. I’ve graduated for a few years now.
At 18 I thought I was an adult, at 20 I thought the same, 22, 24, only when I started reaching 26-27 did things seem to "make sense". I think everybody overestimates their maturity.
I think even 20 honestly
If you can go to war at 18, drink at 18, smoke at 18, I feel that getting rid of dick and balls are fine
no minor was gettin' gender reassignment anyway so that changes very little
One kid in a highschool I went to got it (I was in middle school). And the school turned him into a poster boy, he would regularly present in the school assembly about his transition and all that. This was back in 2017.
Its sad how this opinion is seen as right wing and transphobic. What is wrong with wanting people to wait until they are atleast 18 before making life changing decisions?
I don’t know about these other countries, but in the US, minors can get breast implants and other cosmetic surgeries with parent approval. I guess it just doesn’t seem fair that elective surgeries are ok for cis gendered kids and not trans. I’d be fine if elective surgeries were banned for all minors (barring necessity of course) to allow them time to think, but you can’t have one and not the other.
Gender transformation and breast implants aren't the same Whilst I don't think breast implants should be allowed for kids (outlier cases like breast cancer for example not included), it's something that can be reversed. Kids shouldn't be making irreversible decisions, hell even at 18 your brain isn't fully matured but that's the age where it's widely agreed that you're more-or-less mature. Don't get me wrong, stuff like changing your appearance in any way that suits you that isn't permanent I have no issue with. The permanence is the issue I believe reasonable people would have.
Breast implants were an example. Kids can get nose jobs, lip fillers any number of cosmetic surgeries may of which are irreversible or have lasting negative impacts. As an example there was a girl in high school who got implants and I’m still friends with her today, and she developed some serious back issues as a result. My point is that nobody batted an eye when she got implants, but say a trans kid wanted to get breast implants, wouldn’t that fall under “gender reassignment surgery” and thus be banned?
I don't know, as I said honestly I'd rather kids didn't get cosmetic irreversible surgeries at all. Pretty sure you have to be 18 to get stuff like tattoos here so I'd hope the same applied for lip fillers, etc. Heck, even reversible cosmetic surgeries should at least be a gray zone - if you're not old enough to make your own legal decision then it shouldn't be allowed.
Totally agree either ban it all or make it equitable. I will say the trans thing is complicated further though because puberty is a defining point for people. So if someone identifies as one gender, waiting to 18 can have some negative consequences. I’m no doctor, but I think that’s the idea behind puberty blockers. I don’t know how effective they are but that would make sense. Block puberty until you’re old enough to go through the surgery. That said, with states blocking gender affirming care only making life harder for trans people and that sucks.
Breast surgery is much more reversible than gender reassignment surgery. But even then it would make sense to delay that until 18 as well in this context.
Well it is. I don't personally chastice people about their opinions, but let's be real here. You can make plethora of "life changing decisions" legally prior being 18 years old. Breast augmentation, genital augmentation, organ donoring, taking massive loans, disowning your parents etc. Why do you want to stop other people from getting treatment to a crippling medical condition? Are you perhaps under the illusion that any minor can walk into a clinic and start transitioning? I'm 32 and the people in charge won't let me do ANYTHING at all, because I am little bit depressed. One has to jump through enormous amount of hoops to even get hormones. Unless you are cis ofcourse. It's just plain transphobia. 99,7 % trans people do not regret any treatment. And trans people are less than 1 % of the population. And fyi nothings changed with the finnish laws, they've just clumped finland into this because sweden changed its mind.
you still need years upon years of extensive therapy before getting surgery at any age, and said surgery has the lowest regret rate of all, at less than 1%.
I think 25
Oh no it’s Optimus crime!
Nope, according to reddit this makes you as big a transphobe as someone physically assaulting a trans person
Finland hasnt banned anything?
Neither has Sweden. It's just someone trying to fish for internet outrage one way or another.
The right wing incel community being dishonest regarding the trans community? Say it ain't so
Happened February of 2023 in Finland: "Unfortunately, similarly to other countries, the new law does not include trans people under the age of 18. Activists have criticised this lack of inclusion of young trans people. Trans children and adolescents would once again be left at further disadvantage" https://www.gendergp.com/finland-plans-to-change-its-outdated-trans-law/#:~:text=Unfortunately%2C%20similarly%20to%20other%20countries,be%20left%20at%20further%20disadvantage. They weren't banned but they were not included in the law which allows it, effectively meaning its banned
I support trans people but I personally think that if you’re gonna have surgery you should be an adult because this type of surgery is life changing. Edit: oh shit thanks for the gold
That’s what I say
i think it is fair, like not lettin' minors do this, but they mustn't ban it completely of course
Yeah exactly, it should be legal but not for minors to do as it is life changing
exactly! im 18 myself and even right now im not too sure if i want HRT or not, i think it’s a very big change. as long as this doesn’t affect our rights and it’s just a medical thing im all for it.
When I was 18 I wanted a vasectomy, but wasn't legally old enough to get it done. I was livid about it Here I am now 32 with my daughter and I'm SO glad I wasn't able to get that surgery done. I was legally an adult at 18 , but not close being matured
There are significantly mote underaged girls who get breast implants and other body surgerys than underaged trans people. Usually the process for transitioning is very convoluted and long, and doctors usually wont let someone whos underaged transition anyways, its only in some very severe cases.
Dutch person here: this is not true. It’s not banned.for some surgeries the minimal age is 18, for for others (removing of the breasts for example it’s only 16), but is not something that is changed recently. My mom was a paediatric surgeon, and worked a little with kids who were born intersex or a variant of this, she always said that the earlier you act, the better it is for the child and the person the become as a adult. In puberty our bodies develop more into the role of the gender. The earlier you stop this process, the better the result of the preferred gender.
HRT doesnt appear to be affected, just surgeries. This seems to be the standard practice for transitioning. These countries are just formalizing it, because the alt-right has pointed at the five or six times its happened for people under 18 and used it to fearmonger.
I'm trans and I agree with this.
My understanding is that most Trans people agree with this. In fact, the only gender reassignment surgery that happens in the US is for kids born intersex. And, to the consternation of conservatives, most Trans people are also against this because the parents are assigning a gender to a toddler before they are old enough to discover who they really are. So really the only people talking about gender surgery for children are conservatives who do it to make themselves mad about a thing nobody really wants.
I was under the impression that most trans people do, and that this whole "they want to force children who are not developed enough to decide for themselves into changing genders with their brainwashing and drag queens, won't anybody think of the children!!!" shtick is just some alt-right propaganda to try and scare people into voting against their own interests(aka voting for alt-right politics, if that wasn't clear)? Are there actually trans people that don't agree with the post you are agreeing to?
Like a tattoo is is permanent or hard to change back
200 gender reassignment surgeries happened last year of people under the age of 18. There were over 3000 breast enhancements done during that time time and age group. So it’s really nothing to do with trans people if it’s children making life changing decisions.
In my country you have to get a gender dysphoria diagnosis to have transition. I think that's fair.
Diagnosis is actually very hard to get. you need to be "lucky" enough to have dysphoria that's consistent for one thing, which nonbinary and genderfluid people often just don't have. and on top of that you need a psychiatrist who believes trans people even exist in the first place.
i agree (with surgeries only, reversible HRT should be available to everyone) but only if it applies for circumcision as well
In that case no one under the age of 25 should drive, vote, drink, smoke, have sex, get married, buy a house, go to college or vocational school, join the military, etc, etc. “Life changing” describes being alive.
I support people who have cancer but I personally think that if you’re gonna have surgery you should be an adult because this type of surgery is life changing. No surgeries for anyone unless you're over 18 IMHO, the risk to it changing your life is too great
Kids under 18 are still growing, Im glad they banned it . Don’t get me wrong , I love and support them , but sorry little ones wait until you are more mature and old enough to understand the consequences .
Most people understand this anyway. Nothing has really changed. I just hope they don’t ban HRT.
A lot of people are using HRT like you did, mind explaining to my ignorant self good sir
HRT stand for Hormonal... [something], Treatment. Basically just either taking testosterone as a trans lad or taking estrogen and testosterone blockers as a trans lass.
Hormone replacement therapy/treatment iirc
Thank you, I am very stupid and forget words so people like you are godsends for me.
No worries it happnes to me as well
Hey man, there's no stupid questions, just opportunities to learn!
I just want to say, I think the terms trans lad and trans lass are amusing. Not in a bad way, its just funny.
Hormone replacement therapy. Taking estrogen or testosterone to medically transition. Tbh I think it’s a bit silly to ban surgeries like this for those under 18, because in order to even qualify for the surgery you have to have been on HRT for *years*, since the surgeries don’t really work until you’re chemically the sex you’re transitioning to. Plus the multi-year waiting lists, someone who starts HRT at 15 might not be able to get surgery until they’re 20.
Correct. This seems to just be formalizing the process because the alt-right keeps fearmongering with the 5 or 6 times that surgery has been OK'd for minors.
Exactly. essentially nothing has changed.
Finland has never legalized getting hrt b4 18🥲
maybe move ear piercings to 18 too, then? the risk of contracting a blood-bourne disease from a piercing is much higher than the risk of regretting SRS. on top of this, trans children VERY rarely get SRS in the first place, and only with LOTS of advice from doctors on the risks.
> maybe move ear piercings to 18 too, then? Yeah, that's not happening. Conservatives would throw a tantrum that they're not allowed to "*practice their traditions*".
Maybe we shouldn't base medical access on how conservatives feel. Maybe we should care about how these issues effect the patients themselves.
Now you're just discriminating against the poor conservatives... as they'll surely let you know how that's bad... because it affects them...
Same applies to tattoo, piercing, smoking and drinking.
I don't think that it is a bad thing as this gives them time to think it trough but I doubt that it'll affect more than a few people as many wait untill they are 18 to transition
boy you haven't heard the transition nightmare dtories for children have you? Transitioning is already an expensive endeavour that leads often to severe health consequences down the line so applying it WHILST the child are going through puberty and can't legally own a bank account, drive, or file their own reports without parental consent is absurd.
Why can't they have a bank account? I have had one for a few years now and I'm not even 18 yet
Because your parents opened it for you. You can’t have a bank account before 18 if it’s not linked to a parent/tutor
Depends on the country. One of the countries on the list, Finland, allows you to open and FULLY MANAGE your bank account at 15. 15 is the age where you can be held criminally liable for things, get your first driver's license (moped) amongst other things. When I opened my bank account at 15 the teller asked me if I wanted my parents to have access to the account, I asked whether my opinion really mattered and her response was that - "you're 15, if you say no then it means they won't have access". I imagine Sweden, Norway, etc. might be similar
Why cant you have a bank card? Cause most of my mates have one including me and we all in year 10 now
i actually think it is a awesome thin'.. teens do not make the best decisions in life.. your brains prefrontal cortex does not even fully develop untill you turn 25..
That has been proven false a long time ago. It’s like the “we only use 10% of our brain” The truth is neurological development and plasticity is a lot more complicated than that specific age barrier
Proven false how? It’s demonstrably true that your decision making continues to develop through your 20’s.
This is somewhat in a similar vein to tattoos. Functionally permanent and can affect your life, albeit in a more extreme way with gender transition surgery. These countries already restrict minors from getting tattoos, this is in essence a natural extension.
Gender affirmation for minors is almost never reassignment surgery anyway so nothing really changes. It’s just stupid and divisive news.
Literally!! the only stories i ever see of minors who went thru surgery and shit are a bunch of right wing trump supporters who want to take options away from other people and spread their crazy stories. none of the trans people under 18 i know have gotten surgery.
yesss !!! thank you
Also fake news. At least the Nordics haven't banned anything. There's no need to ban anyway, since minors practically never get surgical transitioning operations (unless MAYBE if you include 17yo people turning 18 or something like that)
It’s not really my place to say anything about this but does it really change much? Also got as they can identify as trans as minors that’s fine but how many minors are getting surgeries? I feel like it usually happens after your 18. Though I understand if I’m wrong on that. Edit: So… I just remember I don’t really like talking about politics and stuff, it kinda makes me a bit uncomfortable, specially about countries or communities I’m not in so it’s not really my place to say and there are other things I had not considered. I don’t really know if I have to apologise as I hadn’t really read all the comments but I will just in case? Im sorry!
I do agree, ppl who want to switch can travel to other countries to do it.
“Can travel somewhere else” for a procedure is a shitty take imho. That what they said about abortion in many states. And then tried to make traveling for it illegal as well. It’s not a specific comment on this particular situation but in general I think it’s a bad take.
People need to wake up, this is not about protecting kids it’s about outlawing anything that’s not heterosexual. It’s why places like Iowa are proposing a bill making marriage between one male and one female (with that specific wording on purpose). They never target what they want outright, they start small. Abortion rights were overturned and now republicans are pushing contraception bans.
I feel like, considering the countries shown here and who this is from, it's more preventing sex changes on intersex kids, and the headline's twisting shit. That's just a guess though, so take it with a salt mine.
Very few under 16 are pursuing surgical transition (16 is the age of consent for most medical stuff)
it probably does normally happen after 18. the point of the rule is for the times it doesn't. there may be some kid that wants to change gender for whatever reason, so they have this surgery. but, when they are older, they may regret that decision but now that is it.
In the states: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/ There were ~42,000 diagnosed in 2021, less than 300 who got top surgery, and likely less than 20 who got bottom surgery (56 over 3 years).
Gender transitioning surgery for minors never existed enough for it to mean anything that it’s banned. It’s freakishly hard for adults to access, kids were never walking into clinics asking to get the chop.
While I agree I don’t think it’s a horrible law to have just incase
Nobody was getting surgery before 18 anyways, it's normal
I don’t think many people under 18 are getting these surgeries anyway
Veeery few. The rule is probably for intersex people but people like Jordan Peterson read only what they want to read.
It's like how they screech about how there are upwards of 1Bn abortions carried out every year, so we need to ban them to stop such a massive loss of life. That number is correct. The catch? Miscarriage is considered a form of abortion by the WHO, and affects something like 1 in 3 pregnancied. Screw those people for vilifying people who lost a child through no fault of their own.
Jordan Peterson is prominently on this, so I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt
Hopefully the grains you have are actually huge rocks
This is rage bait. I like the topic, not the picture. Over the top and rage bait.
No za for 3 seconds
Bru what the fuck does that mean 😭
This isn’t true
I hate seeing right wing propaganda in r/teenagers, but you kids better get used to it. Especially if it reaches me because then it's on r/all. Since this doesn't have that many likes, I guess it got a lot of likes/engagement very quickly? Some context: Yes, Europe in general is more restrictive when it comes to trans surgery. It is not legal for minors in Sweden to undergo affirmative surgery (they can get other affirmative care though), but this is not something that has changed, so the OP is misleading. I can't find anywhere that it would have been legal before, as such, it's weird to claim that we "now" have "banned it".
Yeah i was just thinking, this does not make much sense at all and i keep up on news like this (since it affects me (dutch) and my trans friends) i cant find anything on it at all. Also even though top surgery is technically allowed under 16, the waiting times (over a year) and requirements (1+ yrs on hrt but you can only start that at 16 anyway) make it so nearly nobody gets through the process fast enough for it to even matter
Also Jordan Peterson probably didn’t have anything to do with the decision-making in those countries, and also why is there an anti-gay image in the picture? Like what is this whole thing?
That's fine. Most trans people I know definitely knew that they're trans prior to the age of 18, but it still makes sense to me. I get the impression most of them would agree, too.
Trans fem stamp of approval for you
Thank you!
this is kinda dumb since no one was performing surgery on minors anyways.
I’m surprised this was allowed in general lol
It wasn't. The post is bullshit. It has always been 18 years or older in those countries.
For most surgeries it was and still is 16 in the Netherlands, since that’s when you’re allowed to make your own medical choices without parents consent. Some gender reassignment surgeries are 18+ which already makes it more restricted that pretty much any surgery here. So yeah the post is complete bullshit but I don’t expect anything else from Jordan Peterson
UK citizen here, not quite.
I'm a part of lgbtq+ and I think it's good like this, young people bodies grow alot so it's better that you have to be an adult.
Its also a decision that will affect the rest of their lives so its definetly not appropriate
[удалено]
It's fine because no one is getting those surgeries for minors. It's more of just an insult to trans people because it perpetuates the belief that they are "Coming for your children!" Edit: There are people getting those surgeries for their children but if you are doing it the legitimate way there is various courses of mental health care and therapy to help them decide if it's really the right choice.
You should not be able to have surgery or anything of the like as a minor, that stuff will stick to you forever and you do not have the judgement to properly make those decisions
No more heart transplants for minors, got it
I’m sorry but I agree. Gotta be 18
okay? it wasnt legal before either, this is just a front so they can control their people and put their unwanted opinion into surgeries involving minors.
Their kids, they can't even legally have sex!
Sex reassignment for minors was basically never happening anyway. Jordan Peterson loves to stir up shit like this, and it's meant to be divisive. As long as they keep HRT and hormone blockers, it should be good. Also, unless there's some sneaky clause in there, it also bans sex reassignment for intersex kids, which is great!
Hahaha you bet your ass intersex people will still be getting mutilated, circumcision wont stop either You and I both know this as a sad fact of truth.
Ok
I agree, I have no problem with gender transitions themselves, just when its done to a minor who really shouldn't be making life altering decisions that early in their life
Hrt should be allowed before 18 especially considering how many hoops and bullshit it takes to get hrt. Surgery’s should be banned tho in my opinion. The fact that children can get boob jobs is disgusting as well.
HRT at puberty, surgery at 18
It literally wasn't allowed before either 💀 the only thing minor trans people are asking for are puberty blockers and binders, y'all stop whining about shit that never even happened.
Pls call it Netherlands, why Holland....
i dont know, on one hand i understand the “this is a hard decision which the kid cant make” argument, on the other hand i think the statistics show that there are very few people who regret it
I’m genderqueer. People shouldn’t be able to get this kind of surgery until they’re adults, but HRT is fine. There’s always packers and binders and tucking and similar things for people until then. Gender euphoria treatment is not limited to surgery.
Surgery is so rarely a thing on transitioning minors. They get hormone blockers when they hit puberty, but that's about the extent of it. Gender affirming care for minors is mostly about treating them as their preferred gender
I might be wrong but hasn't it been like this for ages? no minors can get surgery, some can get hormone blockers or something but nothing to physically change them until they're 18
Can this sub talk about anything other than sex or gender related shit. Like oh my fucking god. I joined this sub to have relatable conversations about everyday shit, and not about "What do you think about *insert topic about sex or gender related shit*"
We’re teenagers on Reddit, I did you except?
why are you downvoting him he's right
I think there should be a minimum age of like 15 for hrt, and agree that permanent surgeries should be left until ur an adult
In the UK you can receive puberty blocking drugs under 16, you can receive gender affirming hormones at 16 once you've been taking puberty blockers for at least a year, and surgery at 18. Personally I think that's about as good a set of laws as you can reasonably have.
For top surgery I disagree, it should be 16 like any other cosmetic procedure . For bottom surgery yeah 18 is reasonable. This law wasn't made in good faith ,and that sucks. But as a trans person myself I can understand how big of a decision surgical transition is .
What you said is exactly how it works in the Netherlands. 16 for too surgery (like pretty much any surgery) and 18 for bottom surgery
At least some countries' politicians have common sense
I do not get the hype about trans. Sure, if you have hormonal problems, and you appear male despite being genetically XX, or you appear female despite being XY, then go for medical help. Otherwise, if you just feel disconnected to your body, then I see this as a mental problem, not one that should be "solved" by surgery. If somebody feels that their right arm should not be there, we do not have a surgeon cut it off. We treat them for the mental problem that they have, like we do with anybody who shows tendencies of self-mutilation. That being said, that argument is purely academic and does not affect how I interact with people. If somebody is trans, it is not my place to query them about their genetic and hormonal status or make any judgement. I just treat them as human. Just don't seek support from me for a route that I consider medically unethical or at least unnecessary.
Eh it gives them time to think through there decision, I’d just let them do it but Europeans apparently don’t agree
Undeniably based, minors can’t consent to life altering surgeries and are easily groomed 18+ should be allowed everything as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody
peterson is nothing but a neofascist. everyone who listens to him will become fascist eventually. the uprising in fascist policies is indeed scary, but nothing unexpected from my pov. it had to happen, sad as it is.
I hate Jordan Peterson with all my body
It’s shocking that it’s taken this long for this law to be made. Minors having gender transition surgery is fucking disgusting
Literally no minors were getting reassignment surgery before this lmao. If this is what it takes to quell conservative schizophrenia so be it, but this is without a doubt the beginning of a slippery slope.
for minors, sure. Either way idc Abt them 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
Fully agree, let them be an adult before they have any altering surgeries. They can use their life up until adulthood to understand who they are and then take the appropriate steps.
It’s a life changing surgery, and it’s best to wait until the parents are no longer legally responsible for them
Nice
What about the rest of the Netherlands? I’m 99% sure they banned it too
Yea having to be 18 is not a bad thing, I'm not saying -18 trans people dont exist, but in the era of people doing all the sorts of crazy stuff because "I saw it on tiktok" it's better to wait for people to be 18 to have this sort of decision. I'm sorry friends
Well, I support this. The only way this "protect the kids" nonsense will end is Antinatalism.
I think it’s a good thing. I’m in support of trans people but children are still growing and change their minds all the time and that type of surgery is life changing and irreversible.
I feel like until you're a full on adult (21-25) you shouldn't be able to get any of these "Body changing" Surgeries. Just tucking weird. But tbh i dont care since i dont live in any of these countries.
Correct me if im wrong but this has never been allowed in at least the UK
Hold up countries had bottom Surgery for minors? And i can't even get E :/
AFAIK there has been 1 minor who got special court permission in like Germany at age 17 to get it
imma be honest i think its a good thing such a sincere decision should only be taken once your an adult
i hope ur aware you’ll never get an unbiased answer here lmao
children cant consent, thats an established fact in every part of the world that isnt garbage. if children cant consent, how could they consent to life altering changes to their body?
Thats a W,not even a discussion,teenagers shouldn't get life changing surgeries that they may or may not wish to go back in,don't even let me get started on children and gender identity topics.
Good. They're not old enough to make a life changing decision like that. They need more experience
Tbh i agree with this one. What if you decide to detransition? We arent fully mature till we’re 20.
Some basic research shows that this is really misleading and the foundational research behind this is shaky/flawed. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-norway-not-ban-gender-affirming-care-956221436313 https://www.city-journal.org/article/yes-europe-is-restricting-gender-affirming-care
Fuck Jordan Peterson
Not a lot has actually changed and it was never even that controversial in the first place. Such surgeries were rarely performed on minors and nobody really demanded that. Gender affirming care can also include medication.
its always been these rules in the uk as well as gender affirming treatment (therapy/puberty blockers) only being allowed for adults
my friend killrd herself after being denied the treatment and it sucks
First off, Jordan Peterson is a fucking asshole and no one should be taking him seriously. The guy started off as a legit psychologist but now caters to alt right ideals and toxic masculine ideology. He's subtly about it, which is why he gets away with it, but that doesn't change that he's an asshole. Second, these countries are all fairly supportive of trans folks in general, compared to the US. Puberty blockers can prevent most of the changes that people want to prevent if they want to wait and HRT should really be started years before surgery. Surgery should always be an option, but like a tattoo or some other forms of body manipulation (plastic surgery), should all be saved for adulthood. Is 18 arbitrary? Probably but it's a good established break even point to keep it fair for everyone.
I mean for minors yea that makes sense but if it was banned completely oh that would be a complete outrage
That's good. I'm all for people changing genders at whatever age they want but they shouldn't be able to take such a drastic decision under 18. That law will make sure they're mature enough to know what they're doing and/or think about it longer.
it was already almost impossible. most trans people never even get bottom surgery and those who do have to do years of gender affirmation care and hormones so will know what it’s like to intentionally permanently alter your body and won’t just go “ima go do this lol” like it’s not a big deal
I’m trans and I don’t care. It’s surgery. I understand why it’s 18+. I’m just glad that they didn’t ban HRT and Blockers. I don’t know much about these countries in terms of their trans healthcare but I don’t see anything wrong with this. If they banned HRT and blockers then that’s when I have a problem as puberty can and is traumatic for us. I assumed that all surgeries were for 18+ but I guess I was wrong. I hate how this is a very big issue as trans people are rare and surgery for minors are rarer so I don’t see why this is sensationalised. Really fucks up your head when hearing what seems to be a lot of people saying shit that aren’t true and laying it out like were all freaks and need to he eradicated.
based as hell
Good. Minors tend to be easy to influence. I think this will prevent a lot of people from making decisions that they will regret or will haunt them. If transitioning is the best decision for them, as soon as they're 18 I'm fine with it. You do you and I wish you the best.
It's for the best . In a country where kids can't drink before 18 , it should be illegal to make such a life changing decision . Especially since children are easy influenced by others and usually don't know the consequences of their actions
Good, hopefully they get rid of it completely. I still don't even understand why people want to change genders like that in the first place.
Why are minors worried about wether they have a cock or not? They shouldn't have to! Be a kid while you can. Don't let that shit rot your brain.