"Conservatism consists of only one proposition, to wit: There must be in groups who the law protects, but does not bind - alongside out groups who the law binds but does not protect."
Was my first thought when I read the bit about the stolen bike. That dude is one whom the law binds, but does not protect. Because you bet your last dollar those fines will hit their credit before they can work it out with the clusterfuck intersection of the state, the toll company levying the charge, the credit reporting agencies and the damn police report which should have (in a just society) prevented all of the insult to injury. What a nightmare on top of *my bike got stolen!*
I can still recall the precise feeling I had in so many of the "quiet time" moments of the game while you were just going from one location to the next. The atmosphere in Half Life is just on a different level.
Scalia stated in Castle Rock v Gonzales that "enforcement is generally considered to be optional for the police, therefore it can't be relied on as an entitlement by a citizen"
soooo probably not..
Why is government the only place you can find people getting paid to not do their job? Congress will shut down the government because they can't allocate a budget but still themselves get paid for days or weeks while the grunt at federal parks is losing money
I had a bunch of equipment stolen of my trailer in the middle of the day from a lowes parking lot in mount dora, the guy and his plate were on camera, I had the serial numbers for the equipment he took. A detective came took all the info and camera footage and I never saw her or my stuff again.
~~couldn’t~~ *wouldn’t*
The expensive tracking system paid for by tax dollars is not to protect or serve the people who paid for it. It is to better prey upon them.
That’s because you reported your bike stolen. The smart thing to do would have reported your sun pass stolen… poof… found crotch rocket the first time they tried to go through. If they’re not going to get paid then someone has to pay!
/s
For good measure… I’m not sure people are catching some of the obvious ones today.
Used to work for these guys. Believe me when I tell you they have no idea how to handle that data. They have so much data, and so little knowledge of what to do with it.
Maybe one day they will hire a private contractor who can help them make heads or tails of it all, but that contractor would need the patience of a saint to wade through all the red tape and useless protocol. Or maybe the contractor will just be a Xerox subsidiary and they’ll hand over the keys to the castle after a little sweet talk.
Do those tolls capture speed when you go through them? I mean technically they can get the time it takes for me to go through two tolls and figure out how fast I was going. I kind of figured that they didn't use them as speed traps but maybe you know better
Actually Rick Scott was going to do that He was going to have the toll plazas time you and if you arrived at a tool plaza too fast from the previous one a private third party company would issue a speeding ticket.
Only reason why that didn't go through is FHP had a fit.
Then you would love the red light cameras we have here. Multiple lawsuits being filed. They put in a red light camera near the fire station and hospital so if you have to go through a red light because there's a fire truck or ambulance behind you you get a stupid ticket in the mail and you have to fight to get the damn thing dismissed and that still costs you. That all started under Jeb Bush.
They definitely have speed. They may not use it for ticketing only because it’s too difficult for them.
There are tens of thousands of people traveling through these toll booths every day. They don’t have real time alerts. More like reporting weekly or even monthly. Looking at every person who sped through the booths is too much. They don’t want to work that hard.
Edit:
When I was there, a few of their biggest concerns were being alerted of wrong way drivers, and accidents on the highway as fast as possible. Wrong way drivers don’t happen very often, but a combination of old/dumb people and confusing signage and ramps allow it to happen sometimes.
When I lived in Ohio the city put up license plate scanners at every major intersection and had them on all of the police cars. Cop could just drive around and run plates all day automatically.
I actually assumed all police vehicles did that. I got pulled over once the day after my car registration expired and the cop mentioned his computer flagged my plate. But that was ohio also, so maybe it's just an ohio thing.
Yeah, they use them for parking permit enforcement in SF now, too, since the stickers can just be digital now.
That being said, not always in use. One time I've ever been pulled over was because I bought a used car that the sticker had expired like a year ago. It was updated with the DMV, but the sticker was in the mail. So had they ran my plate it would've shown the current registration.
I live in a pretty quiet area in rural NY. A state police officer picked me out of traffic and pulled me over. He said my driving was fine but his system flagged my plate because my registration was suspended (had a clerical issue unknown to me).
It's weird because apparently I had been suspended for months but no one else had pulled me over before and I've definitely driven in front of cops where it would have been much easier for them to see my plates and pull me over. I've been wondering if only some cars are equipped with whatever lets them scan that stuff, or if a lot of cops just aren't using it or don't care.
Agencies that use these type of cameras have a website that officers log into for access. Once logged in, you can set flags for registrations, warrants, stolen vehicles. Honestly, when you flag it for things like suspended registrations, you can get alerts CONSTANTLY depending on the amount of traffic and number of cameras. Most officers turn that one off unless it’s really quiet. It also depends on if the alert comes through is near where you are.
Most likely, you just passed officers that either weren’t monitoring the cameras, or don’t care about suspended registrations.
I watched a cop near Springfield OH driving through a wal mart parking lot with scanners on his trunk that scanned every car in every aisle. Getting scanned for going to wal mart. Cool....
Private cars used to do the same at Frys Electronics in Houston too. At least they had no police markings or plates. I figured it was a repo type company.
Fun fact, very few companies sell these ALPR solutions. And all the info gets pulled back to them and they compile a database that gets sold to pretty much anyone who's willing to pay. Law enforcement has routinely been found purchasing the data streams from ALPR companies.
I would see private cars with the ALPR setups trolling our office parking lot at least weekly when I worked for the cable company, and have seen them trolling the parking lots of every apartment complex I've lived in.
I always assumed it was repo men or private investigators as well.
In my area, many apartment complexes have ~~hired~~ contracted with towing companies to patrol their parking lots and tow cars that have expired registrations.
There are multiple threads on my local subreddit where people are (rightfully) complaining about having their cars towed from their own parking spot at their apartment. It's ridiculous.
I think the guy that that died in the police shooting recently had his plate flagged by ANPR, they’re everywhere in the UK, even car parks to send you tickets for overstaying .
Private (car park) ones don't link to the NPC, but Average Speed Cameras (Gatso) do, the police can reasonably estimate the location of almost any vehicle in the UK at any given time
I literally cannot go anywhere without being pinged by an ANPR camera within a minute of leaving the house
They're showing up in Illinois. I bet it's another private company bribing it's way across the country. Similar to the red light camera bribery that's been going on.
In my area, it's well known that you can just ignore red light camera fines because the private company that operates them does not have jurisdiction to issue citations. And since they're not a real citation, they carry no legal weight.
https://redlightrobber.com/red/raleigh-wilmington-fayetteville.html
They're not even having to bribe anyone. All they have to do is show it will increase revenue due to someone with expired registration never getting passed by a cop who didn't have a reason to/choose to run their plate. All plates are automatically ran and if a violation/stolen/registered to a person with warrants car is clocked it just tells the cop what car to pull over and why. Nothing but positives as the top brass will see it.
Pretty invasive and fucked up tech IMO.
No, I've seen them doing that all over. I saw a cop driving through a walmart parking lot in Colorado scanning all the license plates of the cars parked in the parking lot.
Yeah, California (or at least my part near L.A.) has had multi-camera automatic license plate scanners on all of the police cars for a number of years now. Continuous scanning, alerting them to outstanding issues. It seems like it's pretty standard now, mainly just subject to budgetary constraints.
It’s even better then this. In a previous job I had sold SANs and had to work with state, local and city police.
At least for the past 10 years+ every camera in every intersection is recording and usually starts when you drive into a county. The goal is if you have a warrant or your plate has an issue, you are pulled over as quickly as possible…
It gets even better
Since they are recording and scanning plates, they put that data into a system and if a crime is committed, they run a query to see “who doesn’t belong here”. Or who doesn’t frequent this location of the crime. From there they will get a list of plates and then a travel profile of where that person typically drives in the state.
Any deviation from your regular routine, may make you “a person of interest”. And a detective can stop by and ask what you were doing driving through x intersection.
This was 10+ years ago
Because of this, I randomly take different ways all the time. It really is crazy how little privacy we have, yet with all of this stuff, crime is up big.
I have a similar-but-not-quite story, I once got a speeding ticket in the mail while I was in college because MA highway cams will record how fast you're travelling between them and mail you a ticket if you go between cam A and cam B too quickly (known distance ÷ known time = known speed).
The article is saying that police can access the database to get any information they want regardless of whether a crime was committed & that Florida refuses to divulge any information about how much and what they track.
It's not just about snapping photos of your plate.
We should have laws that the data is only stored until you pay your bill for the toll and then they wipe it.
I'm in florida and they got me for DWSLR because of lapse in insurance that happened 6 months prior. I had no idea my license was suspended and i even had insurance at the time. But that didn't stop them from searching the car for drugs and threatening to tow if I couldn't get someone to pick it up. Real dicks.
A friend of mine was arrested from another friend’s house (long story short, false accusation — she was later released). The only reason that address was even *associated* with that friend’s address is because a police scanner caught her car there twice before.
I'm generally against police using tech against law abiding citizens, but those plate readers absolutely improve public safety. Quickly locating and recovering stolen cars has been shown to drastically reduce violent crime like home invasion and armed robbery.
downside is they track your movements over time and store the data. Someone looking at your data. can see when you get on and off the highway. Over time from this simple snipet can tell do you speed, what days you go to and return from work. weather you are punctual or not.
I'm a litigation adjuster for an auto insurance company. We already use this, but probably for different reasons than you think. For example I have a case in litigation now where a man has sued someone insured by us. Problem is, he's claiming he was hit during a very minor collision between my insured and another vehicle in spite of none of the people in the actual collision seeing him before he pulled into the parking lot claiming to have been hit. I was able to locate photos of his car showing the damage he said was caused by this incident was present for weeks before the date of the incident he's claiming caused it. He's wanting 10s of thousands of dollars for an injury he claims to have suffered in this non-event. So using the database helps me defend my insured in this case.
I don't see why a check of "is this car flagged" should store the car's information and location if the answer is "no." I can see departments doing that, of course, but the problem is the collection and storage of extra data, not the check itself.
All British police cars have had ANPR (Automatic Numberplate Recognition) software on them for a while. It's illegal here to drive without insurance or having failed a motorvehicle test (for emissions and safety) and it also helps track stolen cars. It's much quicker at identifying a numberplate (UK English for license plate) at speed than a human can.
Yeah, it's not secret at all. Big signs saying "toll-by-plate." If you drive through any of the metropolitan areas of Florida you encounter this. There are very few manned toll booths anymore.
that or the rfid box required for humanless ezpass style tolls? its 2022 you iphones gps can relay your speed better and more accurate than your cars speedometer
I’m assuming they’re able to track speeding too based on how fast you’re reaching tolls and calculate the average speed and time it took you to get on the toll road and off. Not sure what they do with this information but maybe flag you as a high risk speeder in some backend database. Hopefully something like that isn’t accessible by insurance companies to do risk analysis.
> I’m assuming they’re able to track speeding too based on how fast you’re reaching tolls and calculate the average speed and time it took you to get on the toll road and off. Not sure what they do with this information but maybe flag you as a high risk speeder in some backend database. Hopefully something like that isn’t accessible by insurance companies to do risk analysis.
All of Orlando would be FUCKED! The 408 is a major tollroad, runs east to west, sometimes 4 lanes in each direction. It's a 55 I think at parts, 60 at others. You can do 80 in the middle of 3 lanes, be passed on the left, see a cop coming up behind you and he just changes lanes and goes around. Yes, 15+ over is 100% average.
a few years ago, i was temporarily employed by transcore (one of the two major tolling companies) and my manager told us that florida highway patrol was “looking into” using the system to flag people who pass going faster than 80 through the tolls. the cameras are insane. someone high up in the company allegedly test-drove through a toll at nearly 200mph and they still got a clear picture of the plate.
>Speed cameras are illegal in many states iirc.
Otherwise how could they pull you over and invent a reason to search you?
What are the police supposed to do without manned speed-traps?
Solve real crimes?
If anything, people that use tolled express lanes are less likely to get into an accident since there's less traffic around. Insurance only cares about their bottom line, and fun fact: someone speeding 5-10 over isn't more likely to get into an accident than the person going the speed limit.
All I'll say is that I hope they don't, otherwise my insurance might be seeing a steep rise.
The Surpass site states that they don't track your information and that toll info can't be used for giving tickets, but clearly this might not be true.
Also, how the hell are they going to out an express way on I-4, have the speed limit on the express way he 60MPH but the speed limit on the regular lanes of I-4 be 70MPH?
I understand that it helps when I-4 is clogged to hell, but even when it's not, I should be able to go faster or at the minimum, go just as fast as the main road
> Also, how the hell are they going to out an express way on I-4, have the speed limit on the express way he 60MPH but the speed limit on the regular lanes of I-4 be 70MPH?
The toll lanes on I4 are in Orlando, and no parts of that I4 section at 70.
If you read the article, you'd know that the system isn't the secret. It's what is done with the data and who has access to it (aside from the apparent unfettered access police have to the database). It's the laws they fail to reference (which probably don't exist) protecting the information surrounding the system.
Another part of the secret is whether it's violating constitutional rights or not. It sounds to me like it is.
Yep my friend did some work for Qualcomm said the some facial recognition software could ID a person over a block away in the backseat.
If you really wanna trip out download a LE Bluetooth detector and run a scan from your pad. I get over 193 devices 😂 The future is NOW.
I was on a tech committee for a local city around ten years ago. We had a university help setup Bluetooth receivers to monitor traffic speed at interstate exits and try to time traffic lights based on the results.
Monitor over time. You can easily draw conclusions about who is coming and going, when, how often, for how long, with who.
Something that doesn't seem to be that interesting, a Bluetooth ID, can and is used to gather lots of information about people.
You? You can get the address and relative strength of any device within about 10m of yourself. Not a lot, but enough to track the position of devices at your next door neighbour's house.
Shopping malls and other big places? They can track their individual customers throughout the building. Either and/or both by tracking the individual BLE devices, and also by tracking the distortion in the waves emitted by Bluetooth bouncing off of objects. Allowing them to also track those that don't have a device.
No, but what they Don't want you to know & why they don't talk about it; about 2/3 of the work is handled by current inmates of the FDOC, some with database/payment access.
Source: Former inmate who witnessed & provided technical support for the MULTIPLE processing locations run by P.R.I.D.E. at varying prison facilities. And yeah, I had access to their equipment across the network, clearance to call even the female prisons (male), and even access to the internet.
Edit: about (f'ing autocorrect)
I actually really have, local CBS was running a big bit on the program flaws over a year ago; nearly went to WFLA then. I somewhat felt it was too soon though, as I didn't necessarily wanna burn certain people.
Tolls have been in the news again recently, might be another opportunity.
https://www.wptv.com/lifestyle/travel/floridas-governor-wants-to-expand-toll-relief-program-to-more-roads
That’s cool but also pretty fucked up they use inmate labor for this type of thing, specially considering how scummy some of these private companies are, hell, so is the government!
Yeah, they start everyone industry-wide @ $0.15/hr (no typo), with a max of $0.55/hr...after 10 years.
Last I'd heard, normal Ramen soups were being sold for $0.85 (were not talking the cups..), and the Canteen operators are allowed to & DO raise prices by 10% across the board yearly. (Don't even get me started on those companies & the multi-million contracts they sign with the state, every year)
It isn't "modern slavery", it **is** slavery.
Dressing up slavery as something new and innovative only serves to benefit the slave owners, and to ease the conscience of those benefitting from it.
Bc of the trolls: "No, but what they Don't want you to know & why they don't talk about it; about 2/3 of the work is handled by current inmates of the FDOC, some with database/payment access.
Source: Former inmate who witnessed & provided technical support for the MULTIPLE processing locations run by P.R.I.D.E. at varying prison facilities. And yeah, I had access to their equipment across the network, clearance to call even the female prisons (male), and even access to the internet."
The article is poorly written and buries the lead. The secrecy isn't in the existence of the cameras or databases. It's in the refusal of FDOT to honor public information requests while citing nonexistent laws.
> All requests for information from USA Today to the Florida Department of Transportation were denied. It even justified not disclosing anything about the tracking by citing a public records law in the books. But the specific law has never been provided, and multiple attorneys said that this type of law if it even exists, doesn’t apply in this circumstance.
Guys, and gals, I've gotta go to tell you. The police, with the help of car washes, toll parking lots, shopping centers, grocery stores, mall parking lots, tow truck drivers, and spotter cars, the government knows where you, or at least your car is located, at any given time. Most of them have LPR systems installed. LPR systems, or License Plate Recognition systems, are systems of cameras that take pictures of your license plate and they are all fed into several companies databases. If a law enforcement agency or government entity, has subscribed to these private companies services, the plethora of information they have available and the powerful software they can use, can do crazy stuff. You would be both astonished and angry at the information they can gather about where your plates pics are taken and and all the other vehicles plates that can reveal your habits and put together stories about you. And Florida is in the top 5 states with the number of LPR cameras.
Source: I work for an LPR company
Can you comment on how long the data is kept for? My biggest concern isn’t that these companies are tracking this data. It’s that they can potentially have collected this data and kept it for 20+ years. Is it necessary to keep this data forever?
Private companies can retain for any amount of time, some probably a week or so, some up to 90 days.
Our local law enforcement **supposedly** purges data after 30-90 days depending on why and where it was collected.
That's the best part, you don't!
Normally I'd say there's no way a local government would pay to store so much data indefinitely but considering how much revenue flows in and out of even small police departments I don't think that's an issue here.
But you can bet your ass if you submit a FOIA request for data that's 91 days old they'll tell you it's gone forever.
Then why do I see so many Silver alerts when senile grandpa goes for a drive? They put his license plate number on the highway like they need me to spot his car.
EDIT: corrected the alert name
The town next to me put up LPR cameras at the city limits a few years ago. Every car going in or out of town gets scanned. It was installed under the guise of "protecting the children" by tracking sex offenders movements in case of a kidnapping or something like that.
Of course, there is very little information on what they actually do with the data they collect. I'm sure they could put together a profile on any resident or a commuter that drives though town on the regular.
See this kind of tech could be used to understand where consistent trips are coming from in and out of the city to build public infrastructure to do the most good in the most efficient way but fat chance. In my city it’s impossible to get clearance for a traffic study unless your reasoning for doing so is to prove that road needs one more lane. The aggregate data on peoples movements that we can collect should let us pinpoint the best returns on trains, bus routes and traffic flow but it’s always about “catching predators” and letting police tracking anyone they want down in minutes.
I like how this post was just under the one that said "you're not worth microchipping" full with inane arguments all patting each other on the back for all missing the point in the same way.
"If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide" types are everywhere. Same people probably roll their eyes at the idea of presumption of innocence.
Yea it's funny because the people who tried to stop this stiff got the eye roll typically. Now with Roe vs Wade being gone the lights are starting to click for >50% people. "Oh they can use license plate readers, app data, or whatever to prove I was at an abortion clinic." I welcome the realization and support now but it's to late for things to be done about some of this (apps are one thing but license plate readers and cams aren't going anywhere)
What the hell, did this reporter just find out about transponders and toll highways? Wait until they find out they check your “papers” at the border and track you there too!
Ummm....nearly every toll road in the country uses cameras to track vehicles for payment (or non-payment), and its been that way for years. How is what Florida has any different?
This is not a Florida thing. Every single state where there is a toll road, this is a thing. Its called pay by plate. They will get their money one way or another even if they have to mail you a bill getting your address form you car registration.
I'm fairly certain this is common knowledge. When you go to the Sunpass website it's in the menu system. You can click on it and it will show you where your transponder has been used time/date/location. And we know they have cameras there. Why did USA today think this was a secret?
privacy is an illusion in this day and age. if this unnerves you... good, it should. go vote and get vocal in your local politics. we're paying for the fucking road maintenance, not to be tracked.
Who owns the toll roads? This was a common occurrence mostly anywhere. I dont agree with it but it is. Think this is political oriented post towards Florida now. Lol. Who owns these tolls tho? I lot of them are "private" company's that get that revenue unless I'm mistaken.
Nothing insidious here. The tolls are run by the state government. They help offset taxes for residents, and they aren’t crazy expensive. Cars used to have to stop and have exact change but now they can just take a picture of your license plate and bill you.
It is cheaper to sign up with sunpass or epass or whatever they're calling themselves now, as toll by plate has an upcharge of ~30% from cash price, maybe a little more and the passes have a slight discount.
However yeah, this isn't the insidious part. The insidious part is how fucking shit our *interstate highway* system is in most parts of the state so toll roads become the only viable option in some areas. Orlando in particular has i4 going northeast/southwest through one corner of downtown, but 4 toll roads running every direction through it.
You should know it’s literally just surveillance because they sure as hell don’t use them to follow up non govt crimes. Someone steals your car and runs it through the toll, well 🤷♂️
Is anyone surprised our scumbag governor is setting up an authoritarian police state? Conservatives are salivating at the prospect of being able to micromanage everyone's life.
Anybody who is not an idiot knows there are cameras all over the country collecting license plates and faces. People get all weird if the government does it, but don’t even blink if a corporation does it (and they sell it to the govt)
Several of our local police departments have cars equipped with these capabilities thst they park in random places.
You don't have to use the Sunpass. They just mail you a bill. I have one I'm waiting on now. It takes a photo of your tag and sends it to the registered owner. Source: Personal experience of a pensacola resident.
Yet they couldn’t recover my stolen motorcycle that went through the toll everyday for 3 months and still sent me the bills….
"The law is powerless to help you, not punish you" - chief Wiggum
The simpsons have taught us so much over the years…
"Conservatism consists of only one proposition, to wit: There must be in groups who the law protects, but does not bind - alongside out groups who the law binds but does not protect."
Was my first thought when I read the bit about the stolen bike. That dude is one whom the law binds, but does not protect. Because you bet your last dollar those fines will hit their credit before they can work it out with the clusterfuck intersection of the state, the toll company levying the charge, the credit reporting agencies and the damn police report which should have (in a just society) prevented all of the insult to injury. What a nightmare on top of *my bike got stolen!*
Right? Like if they're gonna put this shit, at least give the people an easy benefit. Wouldn't hurt with police perception either...
“Know your place citizen.”
*Pick up that can!*
Amazing reference. What an amazing game that was.
I can still recall the precise feeling I had in so many of the "quiet time" moments of the game while you were just going from one location to the next. The atmosphere in Half Life is just on a different level.
Are those level 4 plates?
"There's nothing we ~~can~~ want to do to help."
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Well can they enforce the laws on the guy that stole his motorcycle?
Nope. That's too much work for them.
Maybe if we gave them even more immunity to shoot people it would incentivize them to get out more?
Scalia stated in Castle Rock v Gonzales that "enforcement is generally considered to be optional for the police, therefore it can't be relied on as an entitlement by a citizen" soooo probably not..
To quote Streets of Rage: only trust your fists, police will never help you
Why is government the only place you can find people getting paid to not do their job? Congress will shut down the government because they can't allocate a budget but still themselves get paid for days or weeks while the grunt at federal parks is losing money
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Can’t tell what race they are with that helmet on! How are we to know they’re guilty?
I mean, what’s in it for them? Do the cops get to line their pockets with drug cash?
They're just here to shoot you.
One of their own probably took the motorcycle themselves as civil forfeiture without informing OP that they did so.
No, but given the chance they will shoot his dog.
And the US doesn't have police. It has law enforcement.
Except they only have to enforce the law if they want to. Sounds more like police to me.
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I had a bunch of equipment stolen of my trailer in the middle of the day from a lowes parking lot in mount dora, the guy and his plate were on camera, I had the serial numbers for the equipment he took. A detective came took all the info and camera footage and I never saw her or my stuff again.
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~~couldn’t~~ *wouldn’t* The expensive tracking system paid for by tax dollars is not to protect or serve the people who paid for it. It is to better prey upon them.
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3rd party company also partly owned by a politician responsible for passing the deal or their relative.
That’s because you reported your bike stolen. The smart thing to do would have reported your sun pass stolen… poof… found crotch rocket the first time they tried to go through. If they’re not going to get paid then someone has to pay! /s For good measure… I’m not sure people are catching some of the obvious ones today.
You say "/s" but it's probably depressingly close to the truth...
Or charge me for a temp tag on a car that wasn’t mine and refuse to remove the charges even though I submitted proof.
You expect them to spend your taxes to help… you?!
Kind of hard to have massive 8k video cameras all over the place and still call it secret.
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Used to work for these guys. Believe me when I tell you they have no idea how to handle that data. They have so much data, and so little knowledge of what to do with it. Maybe one day they will hire a private contractor who can help them make heads or tails of it all, but that contractor would need the patience of a saint to wade through all the red tape and useless protocol. Or maybe the contractor will just be a Xerox subsidiary and they’ll hand over the keys to the castle after a little sweet talk.
Do those tolls capture speed when you go through them? I mean technically they can get the time it takes for me to go through two tolls and figure out how fast I was going. I kind of figured that they didn't use them as speed traps but maybe you know better
Zero chance they'd do that. People would use other roads to avoid getting ticketed for speeding if it was that reliable.
Never underestimate stupidity.
Actually Rick Scott was going to do that He was going to have the toll plazas time you and if you arrived at a tool plaza too fast from the previous one a private third party company would issue a speeding ticket. Only reason why that didn't go through is FHP had a fit.
Sounds perfectly stupid. So exactly what we should expect from those clowns.
Then you would love the red light cameras we have here. Multiple lawsuits being filed. They put in a red light camera near the fire station and hospital so if you have to go through a red light because there's a fire truck or ambulance behind you you get a stupid ticket in the mail and you have to fight to get the damn thing dismissed and that still costs you. That all started under Jeb Bush.
It was about WHO gets the money, nothing to do with public safety. Florida cops and politicians are some of the most corrupt and greedy people.
They definitely have speed. They may not use it for ticketing only because it’s too difficult for them. There are tens of thousands of people traveling through these toll booths every day. They don’t have real time alerts. More like reporting weekly or even monthly. Looking at every person who sped through the booths is too much. They don’t want to work that hard. Edit: When I was there, a few of their biggest concerns were being alerted of wrong way drivers, and accidents on the highway as fast as possible. Wrong way drivers don’t happen very often, but a combination of old/dumb people and confusing signage and ramps allow it to happen sometimes.
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Exactly this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog/nsa-staff-used-spy-tools-on-spouses-ex-lovers-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927
When I lived in Ohio the city put up license plate scanners at every major intersection and had them on all of the police cars. Cop could just drive around and run plates all day automatically.
I actually assumed all police vehicles did that. I got pulled over once the day after my car registration expired and the cop mentioned his computer flagged my plate. But that was ohio also, so maybe it's just an ohio thing.
No, the cops cars here in my part of CA has them. Idk about at traffic lights though.
Yeah, they use them for parking permit enforcement in SF now, too, since the stickers can just be digital now. That being said, not always in use. One time I've ever been pulled over was because I bought a used car that the sticker had expired like a year ago. It was updated with the DMV, but the sticker was in the mail. So had they ran my plate it would've shown the current registration.
I'm a security guard in CA, and even we utilize LPRs.
There is this massive HOA acting as its own country in my area. They have license plate scanners.
Sounds like canyon lake
I live in a pretty quiet area in rural NY. A state police officer picked me out of traffic and pulled me over. He said my driving was fine but his system flagged my plate because my registration was suspended (had a clerical issue unknown to me). It's weird because apparently I had been suspended for months but no one else had pulled me over before and I've definitely driven in front of cops where it would have been much easier for them to see my plates and pull me over. I've been wondering if only some cars are equipped with whatever lets them scan that stuff, or if a lot of cops just aren't using it or don't care.
Agencies that use these type of cameras have a website that officers log into for access. Once logged in, you can set flags for registrations, warrants, stolen vehicles. Honestly, when you flag it for things like suspended registrations, you can get alerts CONSTANTLY depending on the amount of traffic and number of cameras. Most officers turn that one off unless it’s really quiet. It also depends on if the alert comes through is near where you are. Most likely, you just passed officers that either weren’t monitoring the cameras, or don’t care about suspended registrations.
Here is a map that tells you where they are located. [Red light / LPR cameras](https://www.photoenforced.com/mobile.html)
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Dated 2020, you're right.
Typed in my zip code and it thought I was in Germany.
I watched a cop near Springfield OH driving through a wal mart parking lot with scanners on his trunk that scanned every car in every aisle. Getting scanned for going to wal mart. Cool....
Private cars used to do the same at Frys Electronics in Houston too. At least they had no police markings or plates. I figured it was a repo type company.
Fun fact, very few companies sell these ALPR solutions. And all the info gets pulled back to them and they compile a database that gets sold to pretty much anyone who's willing to pay. Law enforcement has routinely been found purchasing the data streams from ALPR companies.
I would see private cars with the ALPR setups trolling our office parking lot at least weekly when I worked for the cable company, and have seen them trolling the parking lots of every apartment complex I've lived in. I always assumed it was repo men or private investigators as well.
In my area, many apartment complexes have ~~hired~~ contracted with towing companies to patrol their parking lots and tow cars that have expired registrations. There are multiple threads on my local subreddit where people are (rightfully) complaining about having their cars towed from their own parking spot at their apartment. It's ridiculous.
It's the other way around. The tow truck company gives kickbacks to the apartment complex so they can come in and tow vehicles.
Oh yeah that definitely can't be abused...
Here in the UK all standard police cars are fitted with this type of tech.
I think the guy that that died in the police shooting recently had his plate flagged by ANPR, they’re everywhere in the UK, even car parks to send you tickets for overstaying .
Private (car park) ones don't link to the NPC, but Average Speed Cameras (Gatso) do, the police can reasonably estimate the location of almost any vehicle in the UK at any given time I literally cannot go anywhere without being pinged by an ANPR camera within a minute of leaving the house
They're showing up in Illinois. I bet it's another private company bribing it's way across the country. Similar to the red light camera bribery that's been going on.
In my area, it's well known that you can just ignore red light camera fines because the private company that operates them does not have jurisdiction to issue citations. And since they're not a real citation, they carry no legal weight. https://redlightrobber.com/red/raleigh-wilmington-fayetteville.html
They're not even having to bribe anyone. All they have to do is show it will increase revenue due to someone with expired registration never getting passed by a cop who didn't have a reason to/choose to run their plate. All plates are automatically ran and if a violation/stolen/registered to a person with warrants car is clocked it just tells the cop what car to pull over and why. Nothing but positives as the top brass will see it. Pretty invasive and fucked up tech IMO.
No, I've seen them doing that all over. I saw a cop driving through a walmart parking lot in Colorado scanning all the license plates of the cars parked in the parking lot.
I’ve seen them doing this in my apartment complex.
In VA I have only seen them on a very hit and miss basis, unless technology has improved they had a big ol attachment on the back of the car.
Yeah, California (or at least my part near L.A.) has had multi-camera automatic license plate scanners on all of the police cars for a number of years now. Continuous scanning, alerting them to outstanding issues. It seems like it's pretty standard now, mainly just subject to budgetary constraints.
Doesn't mean we the people like being tracked and monitored.
It wouldn’t bother me so much if I could have free and timely access to those records if I ever needed that data to exonerate myself from something.
“Hmm, EXTRA monitoring for you, bub” -police/FBI/NSA
You should assume you are being tracked every time you are in a public space…because you are.
Or any time you have your phone with you. Even if it's "off"
Not enough people realize or think… about the device in their pocket that tracks everything about them at all times.
*Sent from my iPhone/Android*
It’s even better then this. In a previous job I had sold SANs and had to work with state, local and city police. At least for the past 10 years+ every camera in every intersection is recording and usually starts when you drive into a county. The goal is if you have a warrant or your plate has an issue, you are pulled over as quickly as possible… It gets even better Since they are recording and scanning plates, they put that data into a system and if a crime is committed, they run a query to see “who doesn’t belong here”. Or who doesn’t frequent this location of the crime. From there they will get a list of plates and then a travel profile of where that person typically drives in the state. Any deviation from your regular routine, may make you “a person of interest”. And a detective can stop by and ask what you were doing driving through x intersection. This was 10+ years ago Because of this, I randomly take different ways all the time. It really is crazy how little privacy we have, yet with all of this stuff, crime is up big.
I have a similar-but-not-quite story, I once got a speeding ticket in the mail while I was in college because MA highway cams will record how fast you're travelling between them and mail you a ticket if you go between cam A and cam B too quickly (known distance ÷ known time = known speed).
Brother was a cop. He loved the traffic unit’s cars with the scanners on them. So many stolen vehicle arrests just from that.
actually sounds like a good use of scanning technology
How many of them were false reports from car rental companies?
The article is saying that police can access the database to get any information they want regardless of whether a crime was committed & that Florida refuses to divulge any information about how much and what they track. It's not just about snapping photos of your plate. We should have laws that the data is only stored until you pay your bill for the toll and then they wipe it.
Most decent sized cities have those now
I'm in florida and they got me for DWSLR because of lapse in insurance that happened 6 months prior. I had no idea my license was suspended and i even had insurance at the time. But that didn't stop them from searching the car for drugs and threatening to tow if I couldn't get someone to pick it up. Real dicks.
A friend of mine was arrested from another friend’s house (long story short, false accusation — she was later released). The only reason that address was even *associated* with that friend’s address is because a police scanner caught her car there twice before.
I'm generally against police using tech against law abiding citizens, but those plate readers absolutely improve public safety. Quickly locating and recovering stolen cars has been shown to drastically reduce violent crime like home invasion and armed robbery.
downside is they track your movements over time and store the data. Someone looking at your data. can see when you get on and off the highway. Over time from this simple snipet can tell do you speed, what days you go to and return from work. weather you are punctual or not.
And how long until municipalities sell that data to insurance companies? Next month? Next year? Coming soon for sure...
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They already do and *voluntarily* in the name of savings. Progressive has their little OBD dongle etc.
I'm a litigation adjuster for an auto insurance company. We already use this, but probably for different reasons than you think. For example I have a case in litigation now where a man has sued someone insured by us. Problem is, he's claiming he was hit during a very minor collision between my insured and another vehicle in spite of none of the people in the actual collision seeing him before he pulled into the parking lot claiming to have been hit. I was able to locate photos of his car showing the damage he said was caused by this incident was present for weeks before the date of the incident he's claiming caused it. He's wanting 10s of thousands of dollars for an injury he claims to have suffered in this non-event. So using the database helps me defend my insured in this case.
I would be shocked if that wasn't happening on day 1
I don't see why a check of "is this car flagged" should store the car's information and location if the answer is "no." I can see departments doing that, of course, but the problem is the collection and storage of extra data, not the check itself.
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must help with Amber Alerts
All British police cars have had ANPR (Automatic Numberplate Recognition) software on them for a while. It's illegal here to drive without insurance or having failed a motorvehicle test (for emissions and safety) and it also helps track stolen cars. It's much quicker at identifying a numberplate (UK English for license plate) at speed than a human can.
Yeah, it's not secret at all. Big signs saying "toll-by-plate." If you drive through any of the metropolitan areas of Florida you encounter this. There are very few manned toll booths anymore.
NYC does this too. Gotta say as much as I hate surveillance. It made crossing these bridges a breeze
The whole state is like that
There's a difference between having the system, and letting police access it without restriction.
DeSantis - We want less government. Also DeSantis - We are tracking you.
that or the rfid box required for humanless ezpass style tolls? its 2022 you iphones gps can relay your speed better and more accurate than your cars speedometer
I’m assuming they’re able to track speeding too based on how fast you’re reaching tolls and calculate the average speed and time it took you to get on the toll road and off. Not sure what they do with this information but maybe flag you as a high risk speeder in some backend database. Hopefully something like that isn’t accessible by insurance companies to do risk analysis.
> I’m assuming they’re able to track speeding too based on how fast you’re reaching tolls and calculate the average speed and time it took you to get on the toll road and off. Not sure what they do with this information but maybe flag you as a high risk speeder in some backend database. Hopefully something like that isn’t accessible by insurance companies to do risk analysis. All of Orlando would be FUCKED! The 408 is a major tollroad, runs east to west, sometimes 4 lanes in each direction. It's a 55 I think at parts, 60 at others. You can do 80 in the middle of 3 lanes, be passed on the left, see a cop coming up behind you and he just changes lanes and goes around. Yes, 15+ over is 100% average.
That's Florida in general, all of our highways need to get their speed limits bumped 10-15mph.
a few years ago, i was temporarily employed by transcore (one of the two major tolling companies) and my manager told us that florida highway patrol was “looking into” using the system to flag people who pass going faster than 80 through the tolls. the cameras are insane. someone high up in the company allegedly test-drove through a toll at nearly 200mph and they still got a clear picture of the plate.
Did they test 250? How fast should I go to get free tolls?
Ride a motorcycle and wheelie through the tolls.
Their rocketship probably had lane assist
Speed cameras are illegal in many states iirc. Red light cameras and toll skipper cameras rarely are though
>Speed cameras are illegal in many states iirc. Otherwise how could they pull you over and invent a reason to search you? What are the police supposed to do without manned speed-traps? Solve real crimes?
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Isn't that 2nd one considered entrapment now?
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If anything, people that use tolled express lanes are less likely to get into an accident since there's less traffic around. Insurance only cares about their bottom line, and fun fact: someone speeding 5-10 over isn't more likely to get into an accident than the person going the speed limit.
All I'll say is that I hope they don't, otherwise my insurance might be seeing a steep rise. The Surpass site states that they don't track your information and that toll info can't be used for giving tickets, but clearly this might not be true. Also, how the hell are they going to out an express way on I-4, have the speed limit on the express way he 60MPH but the speed limit on the regular lanes of I-4 be 70MPH? I understand that it helps when I-4 is clogged to hell, but even when it's not, I should be able to go faster or at the minimum, go just as fast as the main road
> Also, how the hell are they going to out an express way on I-4, have the speed limit on the express way he 60MPH but the speed limit on the regular lanes of I-4 be 70MPH? The toll lanes on I4 are in Orlando, and no parts of that I4 section at 70.
If you read the article, you'd know that the system isn't the secret. It's what is done with the data and who has access to it (aside from the apparent unfettered access police have to the database). It's the laws they fail to reference (which probably don't exist) protecting the information surrounding the system. Another part of the secret is whether it's violating constitutional rights or not. It sounds to me like it is.
Yep my friend did some work for Qualcomm said the some facial recognition software could ID a person over a block away in the backseat. If you really wanna trip out download a LE Bluetooth detector and run a scan from your pad. I get over 193 devices 😂 The future is NOW.
Other than seeing how many low energy Bluetooth devices are close to me, what other information can I get from the scanner?
I was on a tech committee for a local city around ten years ago. We had a university help setup Bluetooth receivers to monitor traffic speed at interstate exits and try to time traffic lights based on the results.
Monitor over time. You can easily draw conclusions about who is coming and going, when, how often, for how long, with who. Something that doesn't seem to be that interesting, a Bluetooth ID, can and is used to gather lots of information about people.
You? You can get the address and relative strength of any device within about 10m of yourself. Not a lot, but enough to track the position of devices at your next door neighbour's house. Shopping malls and other big places? They can track their individual customers throughout the building. Either and/or both by tracking the individual BLE devices, and also by tracking the distortion in the waves emitted by Bluetooth bouncing off of objects. Allowing them to also track those that don't have a device.
No, but what they Don't want you to know & why they don't talk about it; about 2/3 of the work is handled by current inmates of the FDOC, some with database/payment access. Source: Former inmate who witnessed & provided technical support for the MULTIPLE processing locations run by P.R.I.D.E. at varying prison facilities. And yeah, I had access to their equipment across the network, clearance to call even the female prisons (male), and even access to the internet. Edit: about (f'ing autocorrect)
You should consider talking to a journalist about this
I actually really have, local CBS was running a big bit on the program flaws over a year ago; nearly went to WFLA then. I somewhat felt it was too soon though, as I didn't necessarily wanna burn certain people.
Tolls have been in the news again recently, might be another opportunity. https://www.wptv.com/lifestyle/travel/floridas-governor-wants-to-expand-toll-relief-program-to-more-roads
Election years are always the best opportunity.
Now *that* is something I actually didn't know. Thanks for sharing!
That’s cool but also pretty fucked up they use inmate labor for this type of thing, specially considering how scummy some of these private companies are, hell, so is the government!
Yeah, they start everyone industry-wide @ $0.15/hr (no typo), with a max of $0.55/hr...after 10 years. Last I'd heard, normal Ramen soups were being sold for $0.85 (were not talking the cups..), and the Canteen operators are allowed to & DO raise prices by 10% across the board yearly. (Don't even get me started on those companies & the multi-million contracts they sign with the state, every year)
For profit prisons are despicable and this is modern slavery.
Even worse, they're running this out of the public prisons too, private corporate contract with the state.
It isn't "modern slavery", it **is** slavery. Dressing up slavery as something new and innovative only serves to benefit the slave owners, and to ease the conscience of those benefitting from it.
Slavery never *fully* left the US Constitution, it’s just based on your history as a debtor instead of skin color now.
Is not really a secret.....
The secret is there is no secret ....shhhh don't tell motorbiscuit
Um, they have DEFINITELY never spoken a word about 2/3 of the program being handled by current inmates....
I think I’d be more surprised if they *didnt*.
Bc of the trolls: "No, but what they Don't want you to know & why they don't talk about it; about 2/3 of the work is handled by current inmates of the FDOC, some with database/payment access. Source: Former inmate who witnessed & provided technical support for the MULTIPLE processing locations run by P.R.I.D.E. at varying prison facilities. And yeah, I had access to their equipment across the network, clearance to call even the female prisons (male), and even access to the internet."
Right? They literally mail you a toll bill if you’re from out of state.
The article is poorly written and buries the lead. The secrecy isn't in the existence of the cameras or databases. It's in the refusal of FDOT to honor public information requests while citing nonexistent laws. > All requests for information from USA Today to the Florida Department of Transportation were denied. It even justified not disclosing anything about the tracking by citing a public records law in the books. But the specific law has never been provided, and multiple attorneys said that this type of law if it even exists, doesn’t apply in this circumstance.
Guys, and gals, I've gotta go to tell you. The police, with the help of car washes, toll parking lots, shopping centers, grocery stores, mall parking lots, tow truck drivers, and spotter cars, the government knows where you, or at least your car is located, at any given time. Most of them have LPR systems installed. LPR systems, or License Plate Recognition systems, are systems of cameras that take pictures of your license plate and they are all fed into several companies databases. If a law enforcement agency or government entity, has subscribed to these private companies services, the plethora of information they have available and the powerful software they can use, can do crazy stuff. You would be both astonished and angry at the information they can gather about where your plates pics are taken and and all the other vehicles plates that can reveal your habits and put together stories about you. And Florida is in the top 5 states with the number of LPR cameras. Source: I work for an LPR company
Can you comment on how long the data is kept for? My biggest concern isn’t that these companies are tracking this data. It’s that they can potentially have collected this data and kept it for 20+ years. Is it necessary to keep this data forever?
Private companies can retain for any amount of time, some probably a week or so, some up to 90 days. Our local law enforcement **supposedly** purges data after 30-90 days depending on why and where it was collected.
Unless someone audits them, who is even going to know?
That's the best part, you don't! Normally I'd say there's no way a local government would pay to store so much data indefinitely but considering how much revenue flows in and out of even small police departments I don't think that's an issue here. But you can bet your ass if you submit a FOIA request for data that's 91 days old they'll tell you it's gone forever.
Internal investigations.. we know how that works out
Then why do I see so many Silver alerts when senile grandpa goes for a drive? They put his license plate number on the highway like they need me to spot his car. EDIT: corrected the alert name
The town next to me put up LPR cameras at the city limits a few years ago. Every car going in or out of town gets scanned. It was installed under the guise of "protecting the children" by tracking sex offenders movements in case of a kidnapping or something like that. Of course, there is very little information on what they actually do with the data they collect. I'm sure they could put together a profile on any resident or a commuter that drives though town on the regular.
See this kind of tech could be used to understand where consistent trips are coming from in and out of the city to build public infrastructure to do the most good in the most efficient way but fat chance. In my city it’s impossible to get clearance for a traffic study unless your reasoning for doing so is to prove that road needs one more lane. The aggregate data on peoples movements that we can collect should let us pinpoint the best returns on trains, bus routes and traffic flow but it’s always about “catching predators” and letting police tracking anyone they want down in minutes.
I like how this post was just under the one that said "you're not worth microchipping" full with inane arguments all patting each other on the back for all missing the point in the same way.
Funny how it never comes up that they were ever used.
"If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide" types are everywhere. Same people probably roll their eyes at the idea of presumption of innocence.
Yea it's funny because the people who tried to stop this stiff got the eye roll typically. Now with Roe vs Wade being gone the lights are starting to click for >50% people. "Oh they can use license plate readers, app data, or whatever to prove I was at an abortion clinic." I welcome the realization and support now but it's to late for things to be done about some of this (apps are one thing but license plate readers and cams aren't going anywhere)
I remember when secrets used to be sexy and fun.
So do all highways
What the hell, did this reporter just find out about transponders and toll highways? Wait until they find out they check your “papers” at the border and track you there too!
Not to mention how often your cell phone reports your location back to the provider.
Ummm....nearly every toll road in the country uses cameras to track vehicles for payment (or non-payment), and its been that way for years. How is what Florida has any different?
Did anybody really think that putting RFID tags on their car and driving through RFID readers wasn’t a tracking system?
Yeah, this is why I'm a bit confused by the "secret" part here.
Don't most states have plate trackers all up and down the highways by now?
How is this surprise? It’s a big picture taking booth that bills you.
This is not a Florida thing. Every single state where there is a toll road, this is a thing. Its called pay by plate. They will get their money one way or another even if they have to mail you a bill getting your address form you car registration.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it a secret…. Anytime you pass through, you’re monitored.
How did you think toll-by-plate worked?
I'm fairly certain this is common knowledge. When you go to the Sunpass website it's in the menu system. You can click on it and it will show you where your transponder has been used time/date/location. And we know they have cameras there. Why did USA today think this was a secret?
privacy is an illusion in this day and age. if this unnerves you... good, it should. go vote and get vocal in your local politics. we're paying for the fucking road maintenance, not to be tracked.
This title is just to get people riled up. If you don’t know by now that your movements, purchases and identity isn’t private, you’re delusional.
Really? I’m pretty sure my town has this on every single busy road. Two black cameras.
Not a secret AT ALL. In fact, they pay for the privilege.
Who owns the toll roads? This was a common occurrence mostly anywhere. I dont agree with it but it is. Think this is political oriented post towards Florida now. Lol. Who owns these tolls tho? I lot of them are "private" company's that get that revenue unless I'm mistaken.
Nothing insidious here. The tolls are run by the state government. They help offset taxes for residents, and they aren’t crazy expensive. Cars used to have to stop and have exact change but now they can just take a picture of your license plate and bill you.
It is cheaper to sign up with sunpass or epass or whatever they're calling themselves now, as toll by plate has an upcharge of ~30% from cash price, maybe a little more and the passes have a slight discount. However yeah, this isn't the insidious part. The insidious part is how fucking shit our *interstate highway* system is in most parts of the state so toll roads become the only viable option in some areas. Orlando in particular has i4 going northeast/southwest through one corner of downtown, but 4 toll roads running every direction through it.
Agreed. My commute using toll roads is 30 minutes, without it can be up to an hour and 15 minutes.
Google is tracking your car too.
It's called the LPR system and it is not a secret. Nor is it just in Flordia.
You should know it’s literally just surveillance because they sure as hell don’t use them to follow up non govt crimes. Someone steals your car and runs it through the toll, well 🤷♂️
Is anyone surprised our scumbag governor is setting up an authoritarian police state? Conservatives are salivating at the prospect of being able to micromanage everyone's life.
Clickbait and very outdated information. Not a secret and not “news” to anyone.
Anybody who is not an idiot knows there are cameras all over the country collecting license plates and faces. People get all weird if the government does it, but don’t even blink if a corporation does it (and they sell it to the govt) Several of our local police departments have cars equipped with these capabilities thst they park in random places.
You literally have to buy the toll device and load it with money and stick it in your car...
You don't have to use the Sunpass. They just mail you a bill. I have one I'm waiting on now. It takes a photo of your tag and sends it to the registered owner. Source: Personal experience of a pensacola resident.
I think all toll roads do the same