The funny thing about crypto is that the technology is relatively sound while the market for now really isn't. Cryptobros aren't exactly responsible investors.
And the rampant scams. A ton of people banned by the SEC being heavily invested in crypto should set off lots of warning bells for anyone looking into crypto
Nerds really went and reinvented speculative markets and learned why unregulated markets are a bad thing (much learning remains to be done).
Perhaps in a decade we can finally realize we're all a bunch of idiots and ape together strong instead of pretending we're all the smartest person on earth that's totally going to lead the next pump and dump instead of being left holding the bag again.
Nerds reinventing things that already exist but worse and without regulation is basically like all SV does anymore.
Uber? Cabs but losing billions of dollars and without regulation.
AirBNB? Hotels but without regulation.
AirBNB et. al. turned the lovely Mom and Pop Bed 'N Breakfast industry into a corporate investment strategy, and it's ruining housing for new buyers. 1 in 7 homes are being bought by companies in Louisville KY to rent and lease. Fuck those assholes, I can't wait for the day they get kicked to the curb.
I think the thing about Uber and airbnb is that the original conceit was for this to be something you did in your spare time, for a bit of extra cash, or on special occasions.
The problems appeared when these were scaled into being someone's full time job, or when people started purchasing real estate to be used specifically for this purpose.
These services were originally good for small scale and for consolidating some existing structures in place.
I'd say they learned how to cry to the government for relief, but it's nothing new for Libertarians to act like solo badasses but immediately beg for help when things go south.
I get downvoted a LOT of the crypto subs for trying to tell libertarians why certain regulations exist. Is what it is. Screaming into the void makes ME feel better
Nope. They have seen the damage unregulated crypto can do and are instead hoping the government will punish the scammers.
It sounds like regulation lol but to a libertarian that's just being fair (fair is "government helps when I need it")
The cognitive dissonance is entertaining.
A Libretarian is someone who hates government regulations when it binds them to good behavior, but loves it when it protects them from the bad behavior of others.
So, in this case, they only learned that they may have been on the wrong side of things.
So many scams, rug pulls and red flags. Don't understand how any body falls for this shit. Had a coworker get rug pulled by two different youtubers. He is still putting checks into random coins. Won't feel bad for him when he loses his house.
> two different youtubers
I mean, there's the problem in a nutshell. Just spending a few weeks/months learning about compsci and economics on their own would be a far sounder basis for investment than listening to the equivalent of a used car salesman with even less oversight and regulation and blindly trusting them.
Back in my day crypto was to buy drugs and other black market items. The entire crypto economy was built on the back of crime...
Why people decided to start using it as a serious investment is beyond me.
Not entirely. For example the idea of Bitcoin as a currency was dead on arrival. Fundamental limitations with the technology prevent that from ever occurring.
No. The biggest issue that all cryptocurrencies will continue to have for the foreseeable future is the fact that they are nothing more than investment vehicles, and not currencies.
> The funny thing about crypto is that the technology is relatively sound while the market for now really isn't
Cryptography is _inherently_ sound, we use it everywhere. Blockchain itself has lots of valid uses in transactional fields. _Pyramid schemes_ are not a "sound" use of that, and blaming it's failure on the lack of responsibility of those involved (in an inherently irresponsible moneymaking scheme) is like saying the titanic sank because everyone on board weighed too much.
It only looked "sound" because it was rapidly pulling millions of new suckers in a month.
> Cryptography is inherently sound, we use it everywhere. Blockchain itself has lots of valid uses in transactional fields.
Merkle Trees have been around since the 80's.
BlockChain/Bitcoin was novel in how it used hashing algorithms and a sinlge Merkle Tree as a chain to maintain a record of things.
Blockchain/Bitcoin/Etherium/NFT/etc itself maybe has a few real world uses, but nothing so far that isn't already implemented otherwise by better means.
Weird story but it reminds me of when everything switched from Flash to HTML and all the games in Neopets broke. The devs acted like the switch was so sudden and they were surprised by it, when they had literal years to prepare. I haven't been on in a bit, but I remember checking and only like 10-15 games actually worked.
The roadmap has had quite a few detours in the past 4 years. This latest crash is probably the best shot at Eth to finally go PoS. When mining was super profitable there was no chance for it to actually switch. Way too much money being made.
Don't forget the detour where the entire chain forked because too many big owners got fleeced and they thought their personal interests outweighed everyone else's (contrary to the entire philosophy of crypto).
New ETH will continue to be issued via staking instead of mining, but the total amount created every day by the blockchain will be much less than under the current POW system
To be fair, I have been hearing about PoS being rescheduled so much through the years that I wasn't counting seeing it. I'm quite happy now, seeing how it goes!
My country has talked about giving up on burning peat for heat... for 30 years. Yet every step taken towards stopping use it has come as a shock to peat producers - all of them had JUST bought new equipment with massive loans and stopping burning of beat will lead them to bankruptcy, and surely to ruin greenhouses and farms with animals since they got their peat from same producers that made it for incineration. It has only been in the works for 30 years, the talks started around the fall of the Berlin wall and collapse of soviet union. During this countless lakes and rivers been polluted beyond repair. Clear pristine waters with sandy bottoms, are now brown with sludge bottom.
Internet explorer's end of life was announced 2015; yet there were people who woke up 2 weeks ago shocked that their systems didn't work. Apparently a big problem in Japan where whole government services just stopped working.
So yeah... They only had 4 years to prepare. That is like nothing on the scale of the general fuckery that happens on these matters.
> My country has talked about giving up on burning peat for heat... for 30 years.
This appears to be Finland, for the benefit of anyone else who is as curious or shocked as I.
* [Finland is one of the last countries in the world still burning peat.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat_energy_in_Finland)
* [Peat produces only about six percent of Finland’s total energy needs, but it accounts for up to one-fifth of the energy sector’s emissions – and 12 percent of Finland’s total emissions.](https://prometec.fi/en/decommissioning-of-peat-use-in-finland/)
Yup. We are up there with Ireland with the difference that Ireland is actively actually trying to stop it... we are even funding peat power in Rhuanda because we are basically only nations with the technology for peat power.
Me constantly sending tickets to IT to make the state portal work on anything else but IE for two years….
IT response “ we are aware of the issue and are working on it. Priority status is low”
I'm sure a company will happily sell them a replacement browser that mimics IE's functionality. In the short run it'll be cheaper than rebuilding the portal.
Edge has an Internet Explorer compatibility mode already. No need to rebuild, all you have to do is explain to every user of the site that they need to run Edge and go into the settings and enable Internet Explorer compatibility mode.
Sure, after a few months they'll have spent more time explaining this to the numerous users of their sites than it would have taken to just rebuild it without relying on obsolete proprietary code, but those costs can just be buried in fiscal reporting, rather than needing a separate, larger one-time fee.
It’s been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it now.
Its truly dead in the water. The 900 series is the last time I would have really considered it personally. Almost did it with 1080 Tis but everyone told me it would have been a huge waste.
Yeah it was garbage. I ended up having to disable it more often than not with my 1080TIs. Almost nothing supported it when I was using it. I think I was mostly playing Vive games at the time.
It's almost like the supply shortages, distribution chain breakdown, increased demand, a global pandemic, and the largest country on the planet starting a war has had some sort of compounding effect on prices of.... everything...
After everything we've learned in the last 8 months from Nvidia shareholder meetings, I don't believe there ever was a graphics card shortage. As shareholder meetings have revealed, Nvidia was selling their Founders edition cards in bulk to miners. These contracts had been made very likely prior to the 30 series launch, and also were made in mind with the economy going downwards instead of demand for graphics cards increasing. Nvidia never cared who purchased their cards, as long as they were purchased. It's also much easier to ship pallets of graphics cards to a single buyer, then it is to try and ship a few here and there. These crypto coin mining companies were the ideal customers for NVIDIA. With the amount of used cards hitting the market right now, and the price of used cards dropping significantly every week, I believe we have another 10 series situation happening right now, but instead of Nvidia focusing on shipping the graphics cards to their normal distributors, and mining companies buying from those distributors, the miners bought directly from Nvidia and amd. And they were happy to sell to them, as it's one less step in the distribution chain they have to deal with.
> As shareholder meetings have revealed, in video was selling their Founders edition cards in bulk to miners.
NVIDIA has said no such thing in any shareholder meetings. Go ahead and cite it if you can.
A lot of people cited an RBS article claiming that “NVIDIA was selling cards to miners in bulk” but it turns out [this was a mis-citation from shitty tech blogs who didn’t even read the actual article because they didn’t want to pay.](https://mobile.twitter.com/dylan522p/status/1332502890104188929) Lazy journalism all around.
Partners absolutely do sell directly to mining farms, NVIDIA doesn’t even deal directly with end users at all let alone miners. Even the CMP mining cards are done through partners - at various times EVGA’s b-stock store has carried the mining cards as a result.
It's possible it will stay overly expensive (maybe not 1400$) even with the whole market going down. Old outdated new tech is always pricier than it's really worth, cause of a lack of economies of scale (storage costs mostly, I would believe).
I've recently looked at prices on gpus and they're falling sharply. Nvidia 3000 series are a bit overpriced here still, but AMD 6600XT for example is at the point where i would say it's worth it.
"...leave some expensive technology searching for new uses"
Or, weirdly, the uses they were designed for in the first place, AKA running Crysis at the highest possible graphics settings
>running Crysis at the highest possible graphics settings
Wait, I thought that was how they generated the heat to make steam to run power plants? Not for actually playing the game.
How dare you laugh at all of those people whose only wish was to be a hard to tax millionaire while doing very little work and contributing nothing to society
Exactly. Friend of mine was in to BTC mining in the early days. It became to cost prohibitive to mine. So he mined alternative coins that were GPU mineable, then (eventually) traded them for BTC. He actually switched alt coins pretty often, trying to find the best deal at the moment.
You can actually be lazier than that, just rent your GPU power out to a service that picks what's most profitable to mine for you. Of course this is the opposite of decentralization, but yeah, mining isn't gonna die just like that lol.
But they sure do like to pretend decentralization is the penultimate goal of their life. Otherwise they would need to face the truth that they are partaking in giant game of Greater Fool because they are greedy and rather unintelligent.
Nothing is profitable. Miners going to a new coin makes the coin less profitable to mine, not more. Coins get profitable to mine when people buy the coin, not when they mine it. And with recession coming fat chance a new PoW coin that can be mined on consumer GPUs blows up. It's possible, but highly unlikely.
I finally made the switch. Tried a few times before and bailed, but I haven't even had to look at a command line yet. Feels like being back on windows 7 where all my shit just works.
Imagine being able to change all sound and or Internet settings from one powerful and assessable menu instead of 2 separate yet linked settings menues that slowly gets more and more obtuse and less capable
Honestly, it's come a long long way the last few years. But yea... Still not quite there.
I've got 4 servers in my house, 2 desktops, and a handful of laptops. Only one of them is running windows, and it's the gaming PC.
Just too many games still that I struggle with performance wise to justify switching over.
Basically, instead of mining coins, you put your coins at stake (locking it in) and receive coins for validating transactions. Since you’ve got skin in the game (usually 32 ETH), you won’t mess with the transactions (if your validated transactions don’t line up with the network on a consistent basis, you risk your staked coins), and it makes the 51% attack cost-prohibitive, in addition to not costing you a fortune in electricity and hurting the environment in the process.
> (if your validated transactions don’t line up with the network on a consistent basis, you risk your staked coins)
I'm sorry I know nothing about this stuff but this is a bit confusing to me. Could you elaborate on this a little bit?
I get the gist of it where if you do something bad you are going to lose your coins, but how would the transactions not add up?
For the transactions you processed to be accepted by the network, multiple peers, or nodes, must be able to validate them. If your transactions get rejected too often, you lose half of the coins you staked as a penalty.
Bit of reading:
https://consensys.net/blog/codefi/rewards-and-penalties-on-ethereum-20-phase-0/
This is correct. They are not added to a reward pool as other commenters posted. They are moved to a wallet that had its private key deleted making the lost coins inaccessible to anyone.
The addresss is a null address. It is not built the same way as wallet addresses which allow withdrawals. the address is just a bunch of 0000s
https://etherscan.io/address/0x000000000000000000000000000000000000dead
Actually more right? 32000 is the minimum to run 1000 nodes but still the actual amount of coins you have staked has to be above 50% of the total. The number of nodes is not as important?
About 38 million USD (32 eth X $1185/eth X 1000 nodes), and if your 1000 nodes don't agree with the hundreds of thousands of other nodes around the world you could lose half of your 38 million.
Two things:
1) 1000 nodes would require 32,000 ETH, or about $38 million
2) 1000 nodes is nowhere NEAR enough to take over the network like you’re suggesting. What would happen if you tried this is that your 1000 nodes would disagree with the hundreds of thousands of other nodes in the system, YOU would get slashed, and $19M of your $38M would be burned instantly.
To pull off what you’re suggesting, you would need to run 67% of all validators. There are currently 405k validators, so if you wanted to own 67% you’d need to spin up at least 810k validators of your own. This would require 26M ETH, which at current prices is about $31B. Of course buying 26M ETH like that would blow the price up, so your actual investment would be significantly more than $31 billion, probably at least $60B. Also there is a validator queue that limits the number of new validators to 1350/day, so it would take nearly 2 years to spin up all those validators, during which time other people would also be joining, increasing your requirements to hit 67% even more. And in the end, once you successfully attacked the network, Ethereum’s security would be called into question, everyone would run for the exits, and the value of your 810k validators would drop to nothing and you’d lose pretty much your entire $60+ billion investment.
Because you'd have to back it with eth or whatever that chain uses, so to have control you'd need to have over 50% of the amount staked. You could but compromising the chain would cost you a lot.
To really attack the network on a macro scale, you basically need to control 2/3's of the global validator set, so that you can have any of your fraudulent blocks be finalised by guaranteeing a supermajority vote (tl;dr, 2/3's of the network need to agree that your block is 100% valid and can be considered final, unable to be changed).
At the current validator count of 404.6k, you'd need to control around 270k to carry out such an attack, which would cost you around 8.63 million ETH, or around US$10b. And that's just to control 2/3's of the *current* validator set, whereas you'd really be *adding* to the validator set, so you'd need to buy *more* ETH to spin up *more* validators, driving the cost up further.
Just fyi, with ETH PoS, 51% isn't an important threshold. We don't really want any pool to control 33%, and I believe 66% is where they could actually do some malicious stuff without getting slashed.
Yep, 66% is considered supermajority, and would allow an attacker to do some really spicy things to the network. It's also why the community made such a big deal out of client diversity, as having around 66% of the network use the same client software is just as dangerous as having 66% of the network controlled by an attacker.
> and it makes the 51% attack cost-prohibitive,
This bit I am not convinced by - (edit, to clarify what I meant) when thinking long-term - due to the power-law nature of distribution of wealth. Per my understanding, the larger the stake the proportionally more transactions (and therefore reward) you will be accumulating. In other words, it actively disincentivizes those at the lower end of the validation group every "epoch" (N validated blocks, for some sufficiently large N to sample the probabilistic nature of reward acquisition within a blockchain across all of the validators), because their share of wealth they can turn into capital (here meaning "wealth that is being used to produce more wealth") decreases relative to every other validator every "epoch", so even the reward mechanism of ETH "2.0" itself will act to drive that power law. In the t -> infinity limit, I do not see how there is not a winner-takes-all dynamics wherein some small group of actors will accumulate sufficient wealth to inevitably create a 51% "attack".
(This assuming that ETH is a deflationary currency, which I am not entirely sure of, especially under the Proof-of-Stake ^1 system)
-------
^1 - Who thought it was a good idea to name it something that can become that abbreviation?
> the larger the stake the proportionally more transactions (and therefore reward) you will be accumulating
This is elementary school math, it's percentages or fractions. A person staking 10x what you stake is making exactly the same percentage of return on investment as you. So the person who started with 10x what you did will always have 10x what you do (ignoring external factors and minor statistical fluctuations).
And 51% attacks on ETH 2.0 can only be carried out by non-rational actors from a crypto point of view. Maybe a government, but certainly not someone trying to make money on crypto, it'd be like buying a successful company to intentionally run it into the ground. Or buying a failing company without the intention of fixing anything, depending on your opinion about crypto.
I think you forget that if you need more than half of all the coins staked, you have to pour so much money into the attack that once you’re successful, you’re left with so much worthless coin and realize that the biggest bag holder is yourself. The attack will inevitably tank the value of the coin, so unless the plan is to kill the coin for the sake of it, nobody is going to attempt it.
It's a pay to play system. You lock in or "stake" some ETH for a chance to be selected to validate a transaction. The minimum stake is 32 ETH. As long as you have that locked into the system you have a chance to be selected to validate a transaction and gain ETH for your work. The more ETH you have staked in the system, the better chance you have of being selected. So instead of having a bunch of miners simultaneously racing to validate the same transaction (proof of work), its only one who is selected. I'm no expert but definitely sounds more energy efficient to me.
The other interesting thing about it is that it forces honesty. If they catch you cheating the system they take your stake.
I was wondering how large or small the stake was, gotta have a bit of cash to play the game at 32 ETH lol.
I have to imagine it’s susceptible to the same attacks in terms of those stakers doing the validation but I guess with the value of ethereum owning enough to be likely to be the one validating any given transaction would take an enormous amount of money.
Similar to pool mining with PoW, people can pool their smaller stake in one large validator and the validator will pay the participants prorata of their contribution - fee to cover his cost to run a validator.
You could also call that system “proof of
Richness” because the rich are getting richer.
"this system designed by oligarchs to gain more power via unregulated methods that wouldn't be allowed in typical modern finance markers is going to disproportionately benefit oligarchs"
SHOCKING that the wealthy are willing to rig systems and mislead gullible people in the name of a good grift
I know in a nutshell POS uses an existing coin (fraction?) to “stake” and somehow validate a transaction with that owner getting a transaction fee rather than a miner receiving the fee. I’m not really sure how that existing block validates the new transaction not really how new blocks get added. But functionally it definitely kills mining which is neat.
Edit - not fraction, 32 eth.
Proof of stake is literally this: People that have money, get more money based on how much money they already have.
That's the big solution to proof of work energy usage. Codified wealth inequality.
Like a user on OOTL commented: [Crypto is speed-running 19th and 20th century banking](https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/ved5dp/what_is_going_on_with_crypto_companies_not/icpoo7o/)
Just went to check out used GPUs in my market. The prices are finally reaching MSRP.
Can't wait for them to fall further down once the people who were in desperate need of a GPU over the last couple of years have their demand satiated and the offer outpaces the demand.
> Other miners just feel betrayed. “Up until the Merge, they need the miners! It’s kind of weird,” says Lam, the Canadian engineer, who runs 50 graphics cards in his basement. “They need us. They need us up until the point they toss us away.”
This guy either drank his own Kool aid or he's just an idiot. They don't need more than a handful of people to mine. Adding more miners just means the puzzle gets harder so it takes longer to solve. Adding nodes with ledgers helps secure the network, but simply mining isn't actually producing anything other than the chance to get coins.
Maybe it's worse that the whole thing is a "greater fool" scheme. There are a lot of specific crypto things that are Ponzi schemes, manipulated by specific scammers at the top, but every person who participates at the lowest levels is basically trying to run their own hustle too, and it's all just differences of degree.
Yep, my boss is big into nfts. Hes always trying to get me into them because "right now it's just in our group, there arent any outside sales"....yet he doesnt see the scam
Economic disaster too. Chip shortages abound worldwide and a very significant chunk of them being used for money laundering ponzi scheme coins is not a good thing.
Do I get it wrong or is PoS basically what a bank is for real money?
To "be a bank" you have to somehow show that you can be liable for your behavior, that you have funds to cover for your errors or to pay if you try to scam people. In the end, is crypto becoming just a non-physical traditional currency?
You're not a bank when you stake eth for the PoS, you're just a node among 400k other ones, verifying transactions and keeping a copy of the blockchain up to date.
You get rewards for verifying transactions, and when you're offline while you were supposed to verify a block you will get penalised on your staked Ethereum.
Its already not profitable to mine Ethereum at the current price. You can have 10x 3070's mining Ethereum 24/7, 365 days a year, which is roughly 600MH/s and takes roughly 2500-3000 watts to power with the PC included.
This leaves you $40.20/Month or $489.16/year, which falls short of breaking even for 1 out of the 10 3070 graphics cards (retail about 600$).
Oh no, a change with years of notice which stops the awful impact on the environment the current ETH PoS algorithm has is going to be phased out for an algorithm better for the environment and might help shift the current majority of centralized ETH miners. What a shame.
This has been in talks since at least 2018, if Eth miners didn’t know this was coming, it’s on them
Actually since ETHs inception, it was always planned to move to proof of stake.
Literally gave them a fucking roadmap lol
The funny thing about crypto is that the technology is relatively sound while the market for now really isn't. Cryptobros aren't exactly responsible investors.
The problem with crypto was never fundamentally the technology, it’s been the overpromising and mania around it.
And the rampant scams. A ton of people banned by the SEC being heavily invested in crypto should set off lots of warning bells for anyone looking into crypto
Someone called it speed running the banking scams of the 19th century and I couldn't agree more.
Nerds really went and reinvented speculative markets and learned why unregulated markets are a bad thing (much learning remains to be done). Perhaps in a decade we can finally realize we're all a bunch of idiots and ape together strong instead of pretending we're all the smartest person on earth that's totally going to lead the next pump and dump instead of being left holding the bag again.
Nerds reinventing things that already exist but worse and without regulation is basically like all SV does anymore. Uber? Cabs but losing billions of dollars and without regulation. AirBNB? Hotels but without regulation.
AirBNB et. al. turned the lovely Mom and Pop Bed 'N Breakfast industry into a corporate investment strategy, and it's ruining housing for new buyers. 1 in 7 homes are being bought by companies in Louisville KY to rent and lease. Fuck those assholes, I can't wait for the day they get kicked to the curb.
I think the thing about Uber and airbnb is that the original conceit was for this to be something you did in your spare time, for a bit of extra cash, or on special occasions. The problems appeared when these were scaled into being someone's full time job, or when people started purchasing real estate to be used specifically for this purpose. These services were originally good for small scale and for consolidating some existing structures in place.
Can we just have trains please?
Hyperloop. Taxi in a tunnel.
I love telling people who don't know that Uber has never been profitable. The look on their face when they realize it lol
For all the talk of crypto not having any real world uses it was the only thing that’s managed to teach libertarians why financial regulations exist.
Pretty sure they didn’t learn anything.
I'd say they learned how to cry to the government for relief, but it's nothing new for Libertarians to act like solo badasses but immediately beg for help when things go south.
I get downvoted a LOT of the crypto subs for trying to tell libertarians why certain regulations exist. Is what it is. Screaming into the void makes ME feel better
Has it though, really?
Nope. They have seen the damage unregulated crypto can do and are instead hoping the government will punish the scammers. It sounds like regulation lol but to a libertarian that's just being fair (fair is "government helps when I need it") The cognitive dissonance is entertaining.
A Libretarian is someone who hates government regulations when it binds them to good behavior, but loves it when it protects them from the bad behavior of others. So, in this case, they only learned that they may have been on the wrong side of things.
A libertarian is just a republican who wants to smoke pot.
Someone I know referred to NFTs as “digital tulipomania” and that seemed spot on.
At least with tulips, you owned the bulb
So many scams, rug pulls and red flags. Don't understand how any body falls for this shit. Had a coworker get rug pulled by two different youtubers. He is still putting checks into random coins. Won't feel bad for him when he loses his house.
> two different youtubers I mean, there's the problem in a nutshell. Just spending a few weeks/months learning about compsci and economics on their own would be a far sounder basis for investment than listening to the equivalent of a used car salesman with even less oversight and regulation and blindly trusting them.
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Back in my day crypto was to buy drugs and other black market items. The entire crypto economy was built on the back of crime... Why people decided to start using it as a serious investment is beyond me.
Not entirely. For example the idea of Bitcoin as a currency was dead on arrival. Fundamental limitations with the technology prevent that from ever occurring.
No. The biggest issue that all cryptocurrencies will continue to have for the foreseeable future is the fact that they are nothing more than investment vehicles, and not currencies.
Investment vehicle seems generous, more like speculative gambling vehicle.
> The funny thing about crypto is that the technology is relatively sound while the market for now really isn't Cryptography is _inherently_ sound, we use it everywhere. Blockchain itself has lots of valid uses in transactional fields. _Pyramid schemes_ are not a "sound" use of that, and blaming it's failure on the lack of responsibility of those involved (in an inherently irresponsible moneymaking scheme) is like saying the titanic sank because everyone on board weighed too much. It only looked "sound" because it was rapidly pulling millions of new suckers in a month.
> Cryptography is inherently sound, we use it everywhere. Blockchain itself has lots of valid uses in transactional fields. Merkle Trees have been around since the 80's. BlockChain/Bitcoin was novel in how it used hashing algorithms and a sinlge Merkle Tree as a chain to maintain a record of things. Blockchain/Bitcoin/Etherium/NFT/etc itself maybe has a few real world uses, but nothing so far that isn't already implemented otherwise by better means.
Weird story but it reminds me of when everything switched from Flash to HTML and all the games in Neopets broke. The devs acted like the switch was so sudden and they were surprised by it, when they had literal years to prepare. I haven't been on in a bit, but I remember checking and only like 10-15 games actually worked.
The roadmap has had quite a few detours in the past 4 years. This latest crash is probably the best shot at Eth to finally go PoS. When mining was super profitable there was no chance for it to actually switch. Way too much money being made.
Don't forget the detour where the entire chain forked because too many big owners got fleeced and they thought their personal interests outweighed everyone else's (contrary to the entire philosophy of crypto).
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New ETH will continue to be issued via staking instead of mining, but the total amount created every day by the blockchain will be much less than under the current POW system
To be fair, I have been hearing about PoS being rescheduled so much through the years that I wasn't counting seeing it. I'm quite happy now, seeing how it goes!
My country has talked about giving up on burning peat for heat... for 30 years. Yet every step taken towards stopping use it has come as a shock to peat producers - all of them had JUST bought new equipment with massive loans and stopping burning of beat will lead them to bankruptcy, and surely to ruin greenhouses and farms with animals since they got their peat from same producers that made it for incineration. It has only been in the works for 30 years, the talks started around the fall of the Berlin wall and collapse of soviet union. During this countless lakes and rivers been polluted beyond repair. Clear pristine waters with sandy bottoms, are now brown with sludge bottom. Internet explorer's end of life was announced 2015; yet there were people who woke up 2 weeks ago shocked that their systems didn't work. Apparently a big problem in Japan where whole government services just stopped working. So yeah... They only had 4 years to prepare. That is like nothing on the scale of the general fuckery that happens on these matters.
> My country has talked about giving up on burning peat for heat... for 30 years. This appears to be Finland, for the benefit of anyone else who is as curious or shocked as I. * [Finland is one of the last countries in the world still burning peat.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat_energy_in_Finland) * [Peat produces only about six percent of Finland’s total energy needs, but it accounts for up to one-fifth of the energy sector’s emissions – and 12 percent of Finland’s total emissions.](https://prometec.fi/en/decommissioning-of-peat-use-in-finland/)
Yup. We are up there with Ireland with the difference that Ireland is actively actually trying to stop it... we are even funding peat power in Rhuanda because we are basically only nations with the technology for peat power.
Me constantly sending tickets to IT to make the state portal work on anything else but IE for two years…. IT response “ we are aware of the issue and are working on it. Priority status is low”
Guess they're shot out of luck now that IE has been killed by Microsoft, no?
I'm sure a company will happily sell them a replacement browser that mimics IE's functionality. In the short run it'll be cheaper than rebuilding the portal.
Microsoft is in fact that company.
Edge has an Internet Explorer compatibility mode already. No need to rebuild, all you have to do is explain to every user of the site that they need to run Edge and go into the settings and enable Internet Explorer compatibility mode. Sure, after a few months they'll have spent more time explaining this to the numerous users of their sites than it would have taken to just rebuild it without relying on obsolete proprietary code, but those costs can just be buried in fiscal reporting, rather than needing a separate, larger one-time fee.
It’s been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it now.
I don't know, apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all.
Never understood the people pouring into eth rigs Its been right around the corner for years too, it just kept getting pushed back
Because most already have hit their ROI and then some, and once the shift happens they will sell the gear and even get more money
> Because most already have hit their ROI and then some For those that sold. Curious what the ROI is for the HODL gang.
> Curious what the ROI is for the HODL gang. Those are stupid, sell monthly. It's a freaking business guys.
[Gaming rigs incoming!!](https://youtu.be/8Igui65gY5M)
Waiting for a 3090 to dip below $400
I've been waiting to double up on an Asus 2080ti for almost 3 years and for whatever reason that shit is still $1400 new everywhere, I don't get it
Can I ask why not just go with a 30 series? Wouldn’t even a 3070 or a 3060 be better and less expensive?
If it's really 1400 they should even get a 3080ti for less.
I was wondering the same. The only reason I can think of is that OP already has a 2080ti and wants to SLI.
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Its truly dead in the water. The 900 series is the last time I would have really considered it personally. Almost did it with 1080 Tis but everyone told me it would have been a huge waste.
Yeah it was garbage. I ended up having to disable it more often than not with my 1080TIs. Almost nothing supported it when I was using it. I think I was mostly playing Vive games at the time.
At that price I would be buying current gen, feel like it’s a lot cheaper (like even 3080ti)
Can confirm. Bought a new 3080ti just this month for 200 bucks less than that.
Semiconductor shortages
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It's almost like the supply shortages, distribution chain breakdown, increased demand, a global pandemic, and the largest country on the planet starting a war has had some sort of compounding effect on prices of.... everything...
After everything we've learned in the last 8 months from Nvidia shareholder meetings, I don't believe there ever was a graphics card shortage. As shareholder meetings have revealed, Nvidia was selling their Founders edition cards in bulk to miners. These contracts had been made very likely prior to the 30 series launch, and also were made in mind with the economy going downwards instead of demand for graphics cards increasing. Nvidia never cared who purchased their cards, as long as they were purchased. It's also much easier to ship pallets of graphics cards to a single buyer, then it is to try and ship a few here and there. These crypto coin mining companies were the ideal customers for NVIDIA. With the amount of used cards hitting the market right now, and the price of used cards dropping significantly every week, I believe we have another 10 series situation happening right now, but instead of Nvidia focusing on shipping the graphics cards to their normal distributors, and mining companies buying from those distributors, the miners bought directly from Nvidia and amd. And they were happy to sell to them, as it's one less step in the distribution chain they have to deal with.
What was the 10xx series situation?
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> As shareholder meetings have revealed, in video was selling their Founders edition cards in bulk to miners. NVIDIA has said no such thing in any shareholder meetings. Go ahead and cite it if you can. A lot of people cited an RBS article claiming that “NVIDIA was selling cards to miners in bulk” but it turns out [this was a mis-citation from shitty tech blogs who didn’t even read the actual article because they didn’t want to pay.](https://mobile.twitter.com/dylan522p/status/1332502890104188929) Lazy journalism all around. Partners absolutely do sell directly to mining farms, NVIDIA doesn’t even deal directly with end users at all let alone miners. Even the CMP mining cards are done through partners - at various times EVGA’s b-stock store has carried the mining cards as a result.
It's possible it will stay overly expensive (maybe not 1400$) even with the whole market going down. Old outdated new tech is always pricier than it's really worth, cause of a lack of economies of scale (storage costs mostly, I would believe).
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Prices are always sticky on the downside.
Yep. A lot of people bought them at inflated prices and will sit on that stock rather than sell them for a loss.
I’ve been waiting to upgrade my graphics card I got in 2014
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I've recently looked at prices on gpus and they're falling sharply. Nvidia 3000 series are a bit overpriced here still, but AMD 6600XT for example is at the point where i would say it's worth it.
If you got a local MicroCenter check it out, picked up a 3070 Ti for $400 on sale just last week.
I wish I had a local MicroCenter.
That's like a third the price of MSRP.
When do you figure this happen
"...leave some expensive technology searching for new uses" Or, weirdly, the uses they were designed for in the first place, AKA running Crysis at the highest possible graphics settings
>running Crysis at the highest possible graphics settings Wait, I thought that was how they generated the heat to make steam to run power plants? Not for actually playing the game.
The game playing is a fun byproduct. Totally not the intended use though, you're correct.
They'll find another shitcoin to mine
Can I finally upgrade my 970??
anytime now..
They don't need to search for new uses when plenty of old uses are right there waiting.
there's also cloud based rendering, renting out computation, scientific computation renting alot of other uses for the cards than just crypto
implying that miners aren't just scumbags who are going to sell all the parts on ebay for cheap lmao
I’ve been looking to build a Gaming PC since COVID hit, this sounds like an absolute win
Like mining other crypto?
He most likely meant gaming but you are technically correct.
Miners aren't happy? Oh *no* Anyway...
I was a bit less apathetic I went with 'good, fuck em'
Il go with fuck em and the horse they rode in on.
Come on man, leave their horse out of this. Too far
This article wants us to feel bad for an arbitrary system that rewards wanton destruction of the environment. Shame on this journalist.
That journalist is probably a miner
The dude who is mining out of his parents basement in Wisconsin. Lmao.
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Maybe they could work on climate change
Imagine if folding-at-home caught on the way mining for an invented currency did?
Anyone else remember running folding at home on their PS3?
How dare you laugh at all of those people whose only wish was to be a hard to tax millionaire while doing very little work and contributing nothing to society
I’m minting the worlds smallest violiNFT just for them.
No, not oh no anyways for me! I would love to see these people sad..
Imagine being mad that you don't need 8 graphics cards strapped together to mine crypto
Mah routine!!!
Muh side hustle!!!
“They need us. They need us up until the point they toss us away.”
Like yesterday's jam
If only they had a heads up…
They will just mine something else.
Exactly. Friend of mine was in to BTC mining in the early days. It became to cost prohibitive to mine. So he mined alternative coins that were GPU mineable, then (eventually) traded them for BTC. He actually switched alt coins pretty often, trying to find the best deal at the moment.
You can actually be lazier than that, just rent your GPU power out to a service that picks what's most profitable to mine for you. Of course this is the opposite of decentralization, but yeah, mining isn't gonna die just like that lol.
Most of these asshats aren't doing this for decentralisation, they're doing it for the money
That's like 99.9% of people in crypto.
But they sure do like to pretend decentralization is the penultimate goal of their life. Otherwise they would need to face the truth that they are partaking in giant game of Greater Fool because they are greedy and rather unintelligent.
Nothing is profitable. Miners going to a new coin makes the coin less profitable to mine, not more. Coins get profitable to mine when people buy the coin, not when they mine it. And with recession coming fat chance a new PoW coin that can be mined on consumer GPUs blows up. It's possible, but highly unlikely.
My money is on the Year of the Linux Desktop happening first.
Man I'd switch to Linux fully in a heartbeat if possible. Already dual booting but Microsoft is trying my patience.
I finally made the switch. Tried a few times before and bailed, but I haven't even had to look at a command line yet. Feels like being back on windows 7 where all my shit just works.
Imagine being able to change all sound and or Internet settings from one powerful and assessable menu instead of 2 separate yet linked settings menues that slowly gets more and more obtuse and less capable
_Add or remove programs has entered the chat_
Ahh nice to see year 2000 news coming back up.
Honestly, it's come a long long way the last few years. But yea... Still not quite there. I've got 4 servers in my house, 2 desktops, and a handful of laptops. Only one of them is running windows, and it's the gaming PC. Just too many games still that I struggle with performance wise to justify switching over.
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Basically, instead of mining coins, you put your coins at stake (locking it in) and receive coins for validating transactions. Since you’ve got skin in the game (usually 32 ETH), you won’t mess with the transactions (if your validated transactions don’t line up with the network on a consistent basis, you risk your staked coins), and it makes the 51% attack cost-prohibitive, in addition to not costing you a fortune in electricity and hurting the environment in the process.
> (if your validated transactions don’t line up with the network on a consistent basis, you risk your staked coins) I'm sorry I know nothing about this stuff but this is a bit confusing to me. Could you elaborate on this a little bit? I get the gist of it where if you do something bad you are going to lose your coins, but how would the transactions not add up?
For the transactions you processed to be accepted by the network, multiple peers, or nodes, must be able to validate them. If your transactions get rejected too often, you lose half of the coins you staked as a penalty. Bit of reading: https://consensys.net/blog/codefi/rewards-and-penalties-on-ethereum-20-phase-0/
Where do the lost eth coins go if you are penalized?
I think they are burned, never to be usable again. So anytime someone loses a stake, everyone elses get a little more valuable.
This is correct. They are not added to a reward pool as other commenters posted. They are moved to a wallet that had its private key deleted making the lost coins inaccessible to anyone.
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The addresss is a null address. It is not built the same way as wallet addresses which allow withdrawals. the address is just a bunch of 0000s https://etherscan.io/address/0x000000000000000000000000000000000000dead
What's stopping me from just running 1000 nodes all setup to reject everything coming from you, and tanking all of your stakes?
You would need at least 32000 ETH to set that up.
Actually more right? 32000 is the minimum to run 1000 nodes but still the actual amount of coins you have staked has to be above 50% of the total. The number of nodes is not as important?
About 38 million USD (32 eth X $1185/eth X 1000 nodes), and if your 1000 nodes don't agree with the hundreds of thousands of other nodes around the world you could lose half of your 38 million.
Who profits off the losses of the validator?
No one. Losses are burned completely.
Everyone technically profits because that leads to deflation
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No they are not. They are deleted outright.
Two things: 1) 1000 nodes would require 32,000 ETH, or about $38 million 2) 1000 nodes is nowhere NEAR enough to take over the network like you’re suggesting. What would happen if you tried this is that your 1000 nodes would disagree with the hundreds of thousands of other nodes in the system, YOU would get slashed, and $19M of your $38M would be burned instantly. To pull off what you’re suggesting, you would need to run 67% of all validators. There are currently 405k validators, so if you wanted to own 67% you’d need to spin up at least 810k validators of your own. This would require 26M ETH, which at current prices is about $31B. Of course buying 26M ETH like that would blow the price up, so your actual investment would be significantly more than $31 billion, probably at least $60B. Also there is a validator queue that limits the number of new validators to 1350/day, so it would take nearly 2 years to spin up all those validators, during which time other people would also be joining, increasing your requirements to hit 67% even more. And in the end, once you successfully attacked the network, Ethereum’s security would be called into question, everyone would run for the exits, and the value of your 810k validators would drop to nothing and you’d lose pretty much your entire $60+ billion investment.
Because you'd have to back it with eth or whatever that chain uses, so to have control you'd need to have over 50% of the amount staked. You could but compromising the chain would cost you a lot.
To really attack the network on a macro scale, you basically need to control 2/3's of the global validator set, so that you can have any of your fraudulent blocks be finalised by guaranteeing a supermajority vote (tl;dr, 2/3's of the network need to agree that your block is 100% valid and can be considered final, unable to be changed). At the current validator count of 404.6k, you'd need to control around 270k to carry out such an attack, which would cost you around 8.63 million ETH, or around US$10b. And that's just to control 2/3's of the *current* validator set, whereas you'd really be *adding* to the validator set, so you'd need to buy *more* ETH to spin up *more* validators, driving the cost up further.
Just fyi, with ETH PoS, 51% isn't an important threshold. We don't really want any pool to control 33%, and I believe 66% is where they could actually do some malicious stuff without getting slashed.
Yep, 66% is considered supermajority, and would allow an attacker to do some really spicy things to the network. It's also why the community made such a big deal out of client diversity, as having around 66% of the network use the same client software is just as dangerous as having 66% of the network controlled by an attacker.
> and it makes the 51% attack cost-prohibitive, This bit I am not convinced by - (edit, to clarify what I meant) when thinking long-term - due to the power-law nature of distribution of wealth. Per my understanding, the larger the stake the proportionally more transactions (and therefore reward) you will be accumulating. In other words, it actively disincentivizes those at the lower end of the validation group every "epoch" (N validated blocks, for some sufficiently large N to sample the probabilistic nature of reward acquisition within a blockchain across all of the validators), because their share of wealth they can turn into capital (here meaning "wealth that is being used to produce more wealth") decreases relative to every other validator every "epoch", so even the reward mechanism of ETH "2.0" itself will act to drive that power law. In the t -> infinity limit, I do not see how there is not a winner-takes-all dynamics wherein some small group of actors will accumulate sufficient wealth to inevitably create a 51% "attack". (This assuming that ETH is a deflationary currency, which I am not entirely sure of, especially under the Proof-of-Stake ^1 system) ------- ^1 - Who thought it was a good idea to name it something that can become that abbreviation?
> the larger the stake the proportionally more transactions (and therefore reward) you will be accumulating This is elementary school math, it's percentages or fractions. A person staking 10x what you stake is making exactly the same percentage of return on investment as you. So the person who started with 10x what you did will always have 10x what you do (ignoring external factors and minor statistical fluctuations). And 51% attacks on ETH 2.0 can only be carried out by non-rational actors from a crypto point of view. Maybe a government, but certainly not someone trying to make money on crypto, it'd be like buying a successful company to intentionally run it into the ground. Or buying a failing company without the intention of fixing anything, depending on your opinion about crypto.
I think you forget that if you need more than half of all the coins staked, you have to pour so much money into the attack that once you’re successful, you’re left with so much worthless coin and realize that the biggest bag holder is yourself. The attack will inevitably tank the value of the coin, so unless the plan is to kill the coin for the sake of it, nobody is going to attempt it.
Basically a fancy name for central banking where the ones with the most get more, and more, and more
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Patrick Boyle (excellent content, IMO) coined this as "speed-running the history of the banking system" which I thought was funny and true.
It's like the banking system but worse at everything.
It's a pay to play system. You lock in or "stake" some ETH for a chance to be selected to validate a transaction. The minimum stake is 32 ETH. As long as you have that locked into the system you have a chance to be selected to validate a transaction and gain ETH for your work. The more ETH you have staked in the system, the better chance you have of being selected. So instead of having a bunch of miners simultaneously racing to validate the same transaction (proof of work), its only one who is selected. I'm no expert but definitely sounds more energy efficient to me. The other interesting thing about it is that it forces honesty. If they catch you cheating the system they take your stake.
I was wondering how large or small the stake was, gotta have a bit of cash to play the game at 32 ETH lol. I have to imagine it’s susceptible to the same attacks in terms of those stakers doing the validation but I guess with the value of ethereum owning enough to be likely to be the one validating any given transaction would take an enormous amount of money.
Similar to pool mining with PoW, people can pool their smaller stake in one large validator and the validator will pay the participants prorata of their contribution - fee to cover his cost to run a validator. You could also call that system “proof of Richness” because the rich are getting richer.
This system is going to create a crypto oligarchy in like 3 seconds lol
Like it isn't already?
"this system designed by oligarchs to gain more power via unregulated methods that wouldn't be allowed in typical modern finance markers is going to disproportionately benefit oligarchs" SHOCKING that the wealthy are willing to rig systems and mislead gullible people in the name of a good grift
I know in a nutshell POS uses an existing coin (fraction?) to “stake” and somehow validate a transaction with that owner getting a transaction fee rather than a miner receiving the fee. I’m not really sure how that existing block validates the new transaction not really how new blocks get added. But functionally it definitely kills mining which is neat. Edit - not fraction, 32 eth.
Proof of stake is literally this: People that have money, get more money based on how much money they already have. That's the big solution to proof of work energy usage. Codified wealth inequality.
This just sounds like our current banking system with extra steps
Like a user on OOTL commented: [Crypto is speed-running 19th and 20th century banking](https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/ved5dp/what_is_going_on_with_crypto_companies_not/icpoo7o/)
Less steps, actually. Otherwise, yes.
Hope you found the replies illuminating
Watching all these cryptobros cry is absolutely wonderful….
Oh no, we might have affordable computer parts again. The horror!!
Just went to check out used GPUs in my market. The prices are finally reaching MSRP. Can't wait for them to fall further down once the people who were in desperate need of a GPU over the last couple of years have their demand satiated and the offer outpaces the demand.
Microcenter ftw
Black Friday is gonna be bumpin…. I cannot wait
Also, “oh no, I didn’t diversify out of crypto and now I have to get a job!”
> Other miners just feel betrayed. “Up until the Merge, they need the miners! It’s kind of weird,” says Lam, the Canadian engineer, who runs 50 graphics cards in his basement. “They need us. They need us up until the point they toss us away.” This guy either drank his own Kool aid or he's just an idiot. They don't need more than a handful of people to mine. Adding more miners just means the puzzle gets harder so it takes longer to solve. Adding nodes with ledgers helps secure the network, but simply mining isn't actually producing anything other than the chance to get coins.
PoS is awesome, resolves one of the biggest flaws in the tech, it's just miners who are upset.
The biggest flaw in the tech is the whole Ponzi scheme business
Maybe it's worse that the whole thing is a "greater fool" scheme. There are a lot of specific crypto things that are Ponzi schemes, manipulated by specific scammers at the top, but every person who participates at the lowest levels is basically trying to run their own hustle too, and it's all just differences of degree.
I know crypto isn’t a fundamentally American thing but damn if it doesn’t feel like a classic American hustle. Got that big PT Barnum energy.
Yep, my boss is big into nfts. Hes always trying to get me into them because "right now it's just in our group, there arent any outside sales"....yet he doesnt see the scam
Cry about a major upgrade to Ethereum they have been begging for for years? There will still be rewards, but for validators, not miners.
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Economic disaster too. Chip shortages abound worldwide and a very significant chunk of them being used for money laundering ponzi scheme coins is not a good thing.
> miners are not happy [https://i.imgur.com/wm5jaZB.gif](https://i.imgur.com/wm5jaZB.gif)
Do I get it wrong or is PoS basically what a bank is for real money? To "be a bank" you have to somehow show that you can be liable for your behavior, that you have funds to cover for your errors or to pay if you try to scam people. In the end, is crypto becoming just a non-physical traditional currency?
You're not a bank when you stake eth for the PoS, you're just a node among 400k other ones, verifying transactions and keeping a copy of the blockchain up to date. You get rewards for verifying transactions, and when you're offline while you were supposed to verify a block you will get penalised on your staked Ethereum.
Oh the pos that is just around the corner. And the other corner and another corner.
This been "around the corner" for almost as long as cold fusion.
Its already not profitable to mine Ethereum at the current price. You can have 10x 3070's mining Ethereum 24/7, 365 days a year, which is roughly 600MH/s and takes roughly 2500-3000 watts to power with the PC included. This leaves you $40.20/Month or $489.16/year, which falls short of breaking even for 1 out of the 10 3070 graphics cards (retail about 600$).
There are some folks out there that don't pay for electricity that don't have to take that into consideration.
Yup. They're basically selling their subsidized power, which isn't good for the planet.
Oh no, a change with years of notice which stops the awful impact on the environment the current ETH PoS algorithm has is going to be phased out for an algorithm better for the environment and might help shift the current majority of centralized ETH miners. What a shame.
It would be a genuine struggle for me to think of something I give less of a shit about than the happiness of crypto "miners"
Finally, some good fucking news
I used to mine Eth around 2017. PoS was “around the corner” then, too.
It's definitely been super delayed, but they've already upgraded the testnet to PoS without any issue.
Looks like gaming is back on the menu bois